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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Azurakai (talk | contribs) at 13:58, 21 June 2018 (→‎“Assault” is not appropriate: Fixed typo). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Template:Vital article

Correction to "Personal Life" section

Believe that the National Geographic 50th anniversary climb was in 2002, not 2003, and probably in May, not April. Either listen to the NPR broadcast at http://www.npr.org/programs/re/archivesdate/2003/apr/everest/index.html or watch the Nat'l. Geog. film on Netflix. The film was released in 2003. Also, Jamling Tenzing Norgay does not seem to have gone beyond perhaps Base Camp, although he had been to the summit in 1996. If I'm right about this, then a correction is also needed to the Wikipedia entry for Jamling. Vieuxdelamontagne (talk) 23:39, 4 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It seems you're correct, both about the date (they reached the summit on the Saturday before 25 May 2002[1]) and about Jamling Tenzing Norgay staying at Base Camp (at least during the final ascent[2]). I've made corrections to both articles. --Avenue (talk) 09:27, 5 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Additional photos

I have uploaded some additional photos of the Everest era. These are from John Henderson, my grandfather. Most are of the sherpas, including Tenzing, because John worked in Darjeeling and had a lot to do with the sherpas. There is a nice photo of a young Tenzing and Edmund ... https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tenzing_and_Hillary.jpg John Pons (talk) 18:55, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It is a great photo, but can anyone figure out the date somehow? EEng 02:31, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It's April - May 1953. Prince of Thieves (talk) 19:34, 18 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Great! Where do you get that, and can you update the file description page with a ref or link to the source of that info? EEng 19:52, 18 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately I can't find a source to explicitly back that up, I figured that out based on the dreaded original research. - The image in question has a ice-mountain backdrop, so it must have been taken on the higher part of a mountain. Hillary only met Tenzing in 1952, and after the 1953 Everest ascent they did not go on another expedition together (although both continued mountaineering), therefore it is an image from that ascent. This article has a picture from after the 1953 ascent, which like some pictures from before the ascent have a clearly ice-free background. I am judging then, that this was taken during the time there were fairly high up, but before they needed oxygen gear at the higher levels. The party reached basecamp during April (12 April 1953), so it can't be earlier than that, and the reached the summit on 29 May 1953. Now it could be during the ascent, or the descent. My dating puts it as being during the ascent, this is because in my opinion they look like they are going up the mountain, rather than coming back. to be safe you could put it as between April - June 1953. Prince of Thieves (talk) 20:33, 18 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Um, that's pretty good, Sherlock, but I think it's a little too original. To be honest I think we should just leave it at what we know i.e. that it's Tenzing and Hillary, period. We can even put it in the Everest section, but I really think we shouldn't be reading in that much of our own conclusions (even though, as a formality, OR is allowed at Commons, but even there there're limits, and this goes beyond them). I'd urge you to revert yourself at Commons on this. EEng 21:05, 18 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yup, about what I thought. Notwithstanding the great detail I wrote above, for commons I just went for the April - June 1953 date (anytime during the main Everest climb), pointed out it was taken in Nepal, the photographer is unknown, and put a PD-Nepal tag on it. I think I safely assume that much at least. I have added 'circa' to the date to indicate the uncertainty there is on that. Prince of Thieves (talk) 21:14, 18 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Well, to be honest I wouldn't even pin down the date the much, but I'm not going to fuss about it. But this is more important: how do you get PD-Nepal? In general, copyright status flows from time and place of publication, and sometimes the nationality of the author, not where the photo was taken. EEng 21:50, 18 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, well not being an expert I was under the impression it was based on where the photograph was taken... I undid my edit to the file description page on commons, I will let someone else decide if my date estimate or Template:PD-Nepal idea is worth bothering with, or whether just leaving it as is would be ok. Personally I am pretty sure I am right on the date, but hey I would think that even if I was wrong. :) Prince of Thieves (talk) 22:13, 18 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Does anyone want to ask User:John Pons? His grandfather John Henderson owned this copy of the photo and so perhaps he had a date written on the back of it, or maybe some other accompanying notes? Martinevans123 (talk) 22:12, 18 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That is a great idea. He hasn't edited for a while (July 2017), but I left him a note. Prince of Thieves (talk) 22:20, 18 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A few nuggets

Some lesser-known items that should perhaps be in the article somewhere:

  • Dropped out of university after two tears of mathematics and science.[3]
  • Along with the rest of his family, was a (founding?) member of the "School of Radiant Living"[4]
  • Travelled and lectured with founder Herbert Sutcliffe[5]
  • "...In 1941, aged 22, Ed Hillary sat examinations to become a teacher of “Radiant Living” and his test lecture topic was “Inferiority - cause and cure” . He concluded with the words, “ I Can!” and received a 100% pass mark..."[6]
  • With his brother Rex, he signed up as Concientious Objectors[7][8]
  • Was this before or after he "...applied to join the air force, but withdrew the application before it was considered because he was "harassed by [his] religious conscience"...."?
  • Ed "...initially gained exemption from conscription because bee-keeping was a reserved occupation..." - but why did Rex not also qualify for this?
  • Rex spent four years in a detention camp as a conscientious objector.[9]
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Snori (talk • contribs) 10:10, 1 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Birthplace

Why does the infobox show that he was born in Tuakau when the first sentence of the 'Youth' section states that he was born in Auckland? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.130.248.66 (talk) 12:09, 5 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The article now says that his family moved to Tuakau, south of Auckland, in 1920. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:49, 17 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Made a Correction

The bit where Sir Ed is on a rant about the death of David Sharp had an error. The leader of the expedition that passed Sharp by on the way to the summit was Russell Brice, not Russell Inglis. Mark Inglis was the double amputee on that expedition. ScarletRibbons (talk) 13:05, 9 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Beekeeper

Users keep removing Category:New Zealand beekeepers, alleging that Hillary is not notable as a beekeeper. Other users (including me) have reverted this. It should be discussed. Good Ol’factory (talk) 21:13, 12 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No takers? The status quo should remain, then. Good Ol’factory (talk) 16:46, 16 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

George Medal for Tenzing

I have removed the assertion that he might have received the BEM instead, which comes from single web page, undoubtedly an error. The GM is substantiated by the Times and the ODNB.Chemical Engineer (talk) 16:44, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Problems

I understand that this is to be put forward for a GA soon, However I think there are some serious gaps in this biography. These are:

  • His family. This section needs expansion. To be fair his early life is greatly lacking in detail.
  • His early climbs. Everest was in no way the first mountain he climbed, again, there needs to be information here. One short paragrpha that misses out key information is not enough.
    • Suggested source: "Sir Edmund Hillary - Academy of Achievement". Academy of Achievement. Retrieved 14 March 2018. he climbed mountains in New Zealand, then in the Alps, and finally in the Himalayas, where he climbed 11 different peaks of over 20,000 feet https://nzhistory.govt.nz/culture/edmund-hillary/everest-to-south-pole https://teara.govt.nz/en/biographies/6h1/hillary-edmund-percival/page-2
  • His other expeditions, and to some extent, detail on what exactly he did in nepal as a philanthropist.
  • The antarctic expedition. this was a major expedition also.
    • I have some journals for this.

In general I feel that only the lead and the section on Everest have really been developed, the article could easily be about 50% longer with the additional information. Prince of Thieves (talk) 02:00, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Your list will be a valuable basis for further article development, but the WP:Good_article_criteria don't call for that kind of comprehensiveness; instead they call for an article to '[address] the main aspects of the topic', with a footnote explaining that 'The "broad in its coverage" criterion is significantly weaker than the "comprehensiveness" required of featured articles. It allows shorter articles, articles that do not cover every major fact or detail, and overviews of large topics.' So, for example, the "one short paragraph" you mention overviewing his early climbs really is enough -- for GA. EEng 02:11, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Ok that's pleasing, it meets all the other criteria fine in my view. Having spent so much time researching this topic I will probably try to improve it a bit and come up with improvements (maybe for FA?). But if it helps I have checked pretty much everything already in the article and it would appear to all be factually accurate and well sourced. Prince of Thieves (talk) 16:33, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That's very helpful. Anyone else see any problems before I nominate for GA? EEng 17:09, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
None here, though I would like to see the table in the below section used, rather than the bulleted list currently used. The current use seems to downplay his writings somewhat, and is more difficult to read. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 17:25, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
OK, well I've asked TheRamblingMan to take a look, and also Tryptofish if you haven't done a final pass, please do. Then I'll make the nom. Looks like all systems are go! EEng 18:14, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
As I said yesterday, I already have. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:17, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, missed that. Thanks! EEng 18:32, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I checked out the images (see below), there are some free use rationales that could be checked, but all looks good. Prince of Thieves (talk) 18:16, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Right now, New Zealanders are just waking up. How about a couple of hours or so for us to look it over? Akld guy (talk) 18:23, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Of course. We don't want to any hitches. No big hurry, but I'd like to nominate in the next few days. EEng 18:32, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Have we got someone lined up to do the review? Prince of Thieves (talk) 18:50, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I leave nothing to chance. EEng 19:41, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I've just finished a series of edits. I don't anticipate any more in the near future. Akld guy (talk) 19:31, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Works

So the publication section could be tabled like so:

Title Year Publisher ISBN/ASIN Co-author Ref
High Adventure[a] 1955 Hodder & Stoughton (London)[b] ISBN 1-932302-02-6[c] n/a [1][2]
East of Everest — An Account of the New Zealand Alpine Club Himalayan Expedition to the Barun Valley in 1954 1956 E. P. Dutton and Company, Inc. ASIN B000EW84UM George Lowe [1]
No Latitude for Error 1961 Hodder & Stoughton. ASIN B000H6UVP6 n/a [1][2]
The New Zealand Antarctic Expedition 1959 R.W. Stiles, printers. ASIN B0007K6D72 n/a
The Crossing of Antarctica; the Commonwealth Transantarctic Expedition, 1955–1958 1958 Cassell ASIN B000HJGZ08 Sir Vivian Fuchs [1]
High in the thin cold air[d] 1963 ASIN B00005W121 Desmond Doig [1]
Schoolhouse in the Clouds 1965 ASIN B00005WRBB n/a [1]
Nothing Venture, Nothing Win 1975 Hodder & Stoughton General Division ISBN 0-340-21296-9 n/a [1]
From the Ocean to the Sky: Jet Boating Up the Ganges 1980 Ulverscroft Large Print Books Ltd ISBN 0-7089-0587-0 n/a [1]
Two Generations[e] 1984 Hodder & Stoughton Ltd ISBN 0-340-35420-8 Peter Hillary [f][1]
View from the Summit: The Remarkable Memoir by the First Person to Conquer Everest 2000 Pocket ISBN 0-7434-0067-4 n/a

References

  1. ^ a b c d e f g h i Hillary, Sir Edmund Percival. (2011). In L. Rodger, & J. Bakewell, Chambers Biographical Dictionary (9th ed.). London, UK: Chambers Harrap. Retrieved from https://search.credoreference.com/content/entry/chambbd/hillary_sir_edmund_percival/1?institutionId=292
  2. ^ a b Hillary, Sir Edmund Percival. (2017). In P. Lagasse, & Columbia University, The Columbia encyclopedia (7th ed.). New York, NY: Columbia University Press. Retrieved from https://search.credoreference.com/content/entry/columency/hillary_sir_edmund_percival/0?institutionId=292

Notes

  1. ^ Also High Adventure: The True Story of the First Ascent of Everest
  2. ^ (reprinted Oxford University Press (paperback)
  3. ^ and ISBN 0-19-516734-1
  4. ^ the story of the Himalayan Expedition, led by Sir Edmund Hillary, sponsored by World Book Encyclopedia
  5. ^ reissued as Ascent: Two Lives Explored: The Autobiographies of Sir Edmund and Peter Hillary
  6. ^ (1992) Paragon House Publishers ISBN 1-55778-408-6.

Prince of Thieves (talk) 17:21, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I rather like the looks of that, though I would take the specified widths out, like so (I'm going to do that in an edit subsequent to this one, for easy reverting if needed). ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 17:23, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I have tabled the publications list. Prince of Thieves (talk) 17:21, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I will go with removing the specified widths too. Prince of Thieves (talk) 17:28, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That looks brilliant, thank you! ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 17:30, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I need to find reliable sources for two of the works and the names of some publishers to complete it, but it does seem better than before. Prince of Thieves (talk) 17:33, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Publication details can be sourced to the books themselves. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 19:18, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Easier on some than others, since most of these seems to be out of print, I will have another look through soon, but right now mot of them are mentioned in other encyclopedias. Prince of Thieves (talk) 20:36, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Um, have you looked at the table in the article? EEng 23:25, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
ah nice. well done. Prince of Thieves (talk) 23:47, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Images

-- Prince of Thieves (talk) 17:21, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Edmund Hillary/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Chiswick Chap (talk · contribs) 12:57, 17 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

This is a fine and mature article, and I'm basically ready to give it a GA without further ado. However there are a couple of things that might be worth polishing.

  • The lead is perhaps a little short for the size of the article.
  • "a holistic health philosophy developed by the health advocate Herbert Sutcliffe" - I can see why this was written like this, but all the same the gloss "the health advocate" comes across as a little repetitive.
  • The "After Everest" section ends with several short paragraphs, which might be merged.
  • The "Posthumous tributes" section similarly starts with several short paragraphs.
  • The "Legacy" section is bulleted. It might equally be written as a single paragraph.
  • I'm not sure of the justification for including a coat of arms section.
Noted other reviewer's comment on this below.

Non reviewer comments

I have checked the article in detail before this GA nomination, you can see some comments I made on the talk page, the gist of which is that I would like to expand the "After Everest" section slightly at some later point before FA, and that would help address the 'polish' of it. There is nothing significant missing, but fleshing out some detail is still possible, particularly in relation to his antarctic expedition.
The lead could perhaps be carefully expanded but right now it seems to me to be a good summary of all the key points in the article.
The legacy section could be merged with the posthumous tributes section directly above, and both converted to prose, however I don't think this would make a significant difference to the article. It is more a matter of style.
I have examined the images and think someone should check to be sure that fair-use of an image of a banknote is correct, otherwise all the images are perfectly fine.
I personally think the coat of arms is a good idea that works. a New Zealander having a coat of arms at all is worthy of attention, particularly with the Order of the Garter. The design is also very relevant to his life, which I presume was in the mind of the armorial people who devised it. The infobox-esque template used to show it in the article is better than any alternative method in my view.
In general I think this article is good, and meets all the GA criteria. Prince of Thieves (talk) 13:47, 17 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Status?

I wonder, Chiswick Chap, whether you're ready to give final approval. We need to get this nominated at DYK right away if it's to be ready for April 1. EEng 06:16, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

EEng: The ball is in your court - I and the other reviewer have made some friendly comments which have been awaiting your opinion for some days. I will respond promptly to your replies. Chiswick Chap (talk) 06:58, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
All the things I mentioned are dealt with to a reasonable standard, I believe this is 'good'. Prince of Thieves (talk) 09:06, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks, though in general when a reviewer mentions issues in a GAN, the implication is that a response is required. I'm just awaiting nom then. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:12, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oops, sorry, CC, I didn't realize you wanted those addressed as a condition of GA approval. I think they've all been addressed now, except expanding the lead – I don't see anything offhand that would be usefully added. A lot of the bulk is the tributes and legacy, and I think swelling the lead with more detail than the current "numerous honers" nod already there would seem lopsided. EEng 14:08, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks for the updates. I think we're good to go now. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:04, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The lead is currently a good executive summary of the main facts. His Order of the Garter is mentioned, which is the most important one. Prince of Thieves (talk) 14:14, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sir Edmund Hillary: An Extraordinary Life Sir Edmund Hillary

The book by Alexa Johnston was first published in 2005, in large hardback coffee-table format, lavishly-illustrated, by Dorling Kindersley: ISBN 1-4053-1208-4. It might be worth adding this edition to the Sources section also (although I assume the text is the same as the paperback Penguin)? For some reason I was recently able to acquire an almost mint copy of this first edition for the princely sum of £2.95 (free P&P). I'd urge anyone interested to get one. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:03, 22 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 25 April 2018

~~Sir edmund hillary climb on the 29 march 1953 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.50.198.98 (talk • contribs) 08:29, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. NiciVampireHeart 10:35, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

“Assault” is not appropriate

Under heading “1953 Everest expedition” should the line that reads

“...but Hunt named two teams for the assault: Tom Bourdillon and Charles Evans;...” be changed to say “ascent?”

I have never heard, nor can I find sources to indicate that assault is the proper term. Azurakai (talk) 13:53, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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