Talk:Cleopatra

English variety

I'm curious as to what English variety this article should be written in. Egyptian English doesn't seem to exist as its own thing. (The Egypt article uses British English, and Ancient Egypt seems to use DMY dates with American English.) Would it be British English since Egypt was under British rule for a time? Or is Cleopatra far enough removed from national ties to have any English variety? I believe the main contributor (correct me if I'm wrong) is PericlesofAthens, who indicates himself as American, and I only saw American spellings throughout the article. But at the same time the dates are in British format. Is it possible to use contradictory writing and date formats? Status quo is fine with me if we just want to slap up an American English tag and DMY tag. Modulus12 (talk) 01:03, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

@Modulus12: Yes, it is in American English, although I guess the date format was my subconscious mistake after having lived in the UK for several years (lol). At the same time I am fine with keeping it how it is. --Pericles of Athens^Talk 01:23, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 September 2018

In chapter 2.11 there is a grammatical mistake in the following part: "she allowed an asp" instead should be "she swallowed an asp". TestudoV (talk) 11:37, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: If you finish reading the sentence, it's clearly not an error: the popular belief is that she allowed an asp ... to bite and poison her. Modulus12 (talk) 12:21, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 September 2018

rome was buildt in 1977 Cleopatra made it. 2601:205:C000:8462:C965:229C:4791:CF76 (talk) 01:48, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

er, actually no IdreamofJeanie (talk) 01:53, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

Spoken Article

Hi there, I'm looking at making a Spoken version of the Cleopatra article. I just wanted to check and see if anyone already has something in progress? It's a long article so I don't want to duplicate efforts. Cheers, Theayeaye (talk) 03:12, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

@Theayeaye: I've never heard anyone suggest this here and I've been closely monitoring the talk page since at least the beginning of 2018 (when I started working on lifting the article to Featured status). Perhaps you should wait a few days, but if no one chimes in, I think it would be great for you to pursue making a spoken audio version of the article. I would thoroughly enjoy hearing it! All the best, Pericles of Athens^Talk 05:07, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

Ptolemy "Macedonian" not "Macedonian Greek"

Title says it all, same way we don't write "Athenian Greek", and can lead to confusion nowadays due to the country of Macedonia and Greece citizens being called 'Macedonians' and 'Greeks' Macedonia (talk) 10:55, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

During the Hellenistic Era, Macedonians were recognised as Greek; the phrase "Macedonian Greeks" is there precisely to avoid any confusion. Go in the modern Macedonia pages if you are concerned about current Macedonia and stop vandalising featured articles. Jesus, what is it with Macedonia these days? T8612 (talk) 12:40, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I don't understand how I'm "vandalising featured articles" given that this qualifier is not required and absolutely makes no sense? Macedonia (talk) 13:12, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

You basically came in here like a wrecking ball, without any prior discussion here, trying desperately to remove the word "Greek" from the phrase "Macedonian Greek", even though this has been the stable version of the article for many months and indeed is the version of the article accepted by the consensus of the Featured article nomination process. More than that, the language of the lead is a complete reflection of the "Ancestry" section, where I have cited dozens of sources that describe Cleopatra not only as a Macedonian but as a Macedonian Greek, and others that simply state Greek in many cases. Ironically, one of the various sources you tried to cite in the lead (within an obnoxious chain of five different citations, breaking the rule we discussed in the FAC about limiting that to three per sentence) was Prudence Jones. You even included a quote from her source explicitly saying "Macedonian Greeks", which basically cuts the feet right out from under whatever silly argument you originally had. You just came her to be a WP:POINTY editor. Personally, I don't really care what your ideological or political bent is (although it's pretty obvious with your name and user page), but you can go ahead and keep that crap out of a featured article. Gee thanks! Toodaloo and ciao. --Pericles of Athens^Talk 13:20, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

I don't believe WP:POINTY applies here as the truth is, they are Macedonian. That is fact and is something we can both agree on, yes? The issue arises whether we should include the additional qualifier "Greek". From your POV, doesn't saying that they are Macedonian automatically imply that they are Greek? When we describe someone, isn't ludicrous to say they were a "Queenslander Australian" or "Arizonan American", do we not say just "Queenslander" or "Arizonan"? From both of our POV's, to simply say "Macedonian" is correct. Macedonia (talk) 23:02, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

We write what's reflected in the preponderance of reliable sources, and PericlesofAthens has provided ample rationale for the text in the article. Please move on. --Laser brain (talk) 23:29, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

@Makedonija: Well I'm so very glad you've chosen a civil tone now that everyone is watching instead of telling me to "get stuffed, mate", like you did in a recent edit summary of the article. The phrase "Macedonian Greek" is used because that is the most common among academics from works that I have consulted and cited in this article, particularly those in the "Ancestry" section. More importantly, aside from the casual mentioning in the lead that her native language was Koine Greek and that her reign marked the end of the Hellenistic period, it is the only indication of her ethnicity and lineage in the entire lead section. I should also note that you tried removing "Greek" from the first paragraph of the lead while ironically citing not only Prudence Jones (2006) as I've mentioned above, but also Donald B. Redford (2000) and Kathryn A. Bard (1999) who explicitly write "Macedonian Greeks" and even Sarah B. Pomeroy (1990) who doesn't even say Macedonian but "Greek ruling class". What you're doing is misinterpreting and abusing WP:RELIABLE SOURCES, if you bothered to read them at all instead of haphazardly copying and pasting a chain of citations from the article Ptolemy I Soter and plopping them into the middle of the lead section of this article, where tons of citations are unwanted for obvious reasons per WP:LEAD and WP:SUMMARY. Ideally, a lead section should reflect the sources used in the main body of text, which is exactly what this article does. It doesn't follow the same rules as the article Macedonia (ancient kingdom) (which I also wrote) where editors and I came to a WP:CONSENSUS on the talk page about not inserting "Greek" before "ancient kingdom" due to the complexities of the early Macedonian ethnic identity. That debate, however, has no place in an article about the Ptolemies, who are universally described in academic works as being Greeks. Period. Pericles of Athens^Talk 23:44, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

@PericlesofAthens: I just love the hypocrisy coming out of you, and it is sad to see that you started the incivility with your "buzz off" comment, which, you should note, has an earlier time stamp than my "get stuffed, mate" description. To have thought that you possessed the intelligence and maturity of an adult was wishful thinking on my part obviously. Articles do not belong to editors, so it is of no consequence of whether you wrote the Macedonia (ancient kingdom) article. I am simply arguing over the wording. From both our points of view, "Macedonian" is correct, is it not? From my supposed POV Macedonian Greek is not required. Do you see what I am trying to say here or will you just continue with your incivility? Macedonia (talk) 00:06, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Bravo. With this post you just squandered whatever credibility or persuasive power your argument might have had, by failing to obey Wikipedia:No personal attacks by commenting on my intelligence, maturity, or other personal attributes which have nothing to do with the article, but are certainly perfect examples of ad hominem attacks if I've ever seen them. I don't even need to go there, since it is probably enough for me to simply direct editors to your entertaining user page. It goes without saying that you will now be reported for breaking that red line of civility. I also see you have failed to understand the point about why I brought up Macedonia (ancient kingdom), which was to point out that changes to an already featured article are done by WP:CONSENSUS. Somehow you interpreted that as a statement of WP:OWNERSHIP, while conveniently ignoring both User:Laser_brain (an FAC coordinator who knows what he's talking about) and I regarding WP:RELIABLE SOURCES, which basically trumps whatever argument you're trying to make here about excising the word "Greek" from the article. The phrase "Macedonian Greek" is a direct reflection of a multitude of scholarly sources cited in this article. If you are unable or unwilling to understand that, then you are welcome to edit a blog somewhere else, preferably outside of Wikipedia. Pericles of Athens^Talk 01:27, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

And the kettle calls the pot black. You seem to not want to discuss the issue at hand, and have started and continue the incivility. I have asked you a question twice which you have refused to answer: To call Ptolemy a Macedonian is correct. This is a simple, 1 word, yes/no answer. Macedonia (talk) 01:46, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Not to mention as well with your personal attacks by calling me a nationalist, while you still are avoiding to answer the question... Macedonia (talk) 01:47, 31 October 2018 (UTC)