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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Wikstroler (talk | contribs) at 20:11, 12 December 2019. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Former good article nominee14th Dalai Lama was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
October 17, 2005Peer reviewReviewed
February 24, 2007Good article nomineeNot listed
Current status: Former good article nominee

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This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Jwang2037, Eboskovski, Lin1248, ShengO (article contribs).

Wasn't the 14th Dalai Lama born in the Republic of China (1912-1949) I would like to reach a new consensus

Right now, it says that the Dalai Lama was born in an "independent" Tibet. Legally, he was born in Tibet, Republic of China. Tibet at the time was a highly autonomous territory of the Republic of China. I would like to argue that he was born in the Republic of China. Please post your arguments below. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adamwikisz (talk • contribs) 04:23, 6 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Adamwikisz, what do RS say?--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 13:49, 6 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
In 1935, Taktser, the Dalai Lama's birthplace, was part of the Republic of China. See Thomas Laird, The Story of Tibet: Conversations with the Dalai Lama, Grove/Atlantic, Inc., 2007, 496 p., p. 262: "In the 1930s, the Muslim warlord Ma Pu-fang seized the northeast corner of Amdo in the name of Chiang Kai-shek's weak central government and incorporated it into the Chinese province of Qinghai. He ruled the area from the town now called Xining (pronounced shi-ning), capital of Qinhai Province. Tibetans in Amdo ordinarily spoke Tibetan, so it was a surprise to hear the Dalai Lama say that in Taktser (nominally under Ma Pu-fang's control in 1935), although only two of the seventeen households were Chinese, his family did not speak Tibetan as its first language." Will that be enough in the way of RS? --Elnon (talk) 14:08, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don't get what's the point in mentioned it anyway. Is not established anywhere in the policies about living people that the exact political entity of where they were born has to be mentioned. I think mentioning the region is more than enough, if someone is interested can check such article and read about it. Unnecesary specification of the area of living is an invitation for future edit wars specially under such controversial matter and in such an area of the world were borders were constantly changing and claim by different powers. But I'm also curious if there's any other source aside from Laird's book for that claim? Otherwise basing such assestment in one single source is kind of trikcy. --Dereck Camacho (talk) 04:22, 9 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The statement "Taktser, Amdo, Tibet" is wrong and misleading as it implies there exists a political entity "Tibet" that covers all the way to eastern Qinghai. The fact is that Haidong region have been never ruled from Lhasa since 10th century and Amdo is solely a cultural term. Just look at the demographics: Ping'an County is 4% Tibetan while Han+Hui make up 93%. The village is not part of that "Tibet" in any meaningful way, not even Amdo unless very loose definitions are used.

Either the birth place should be stated as it is – Hongya, Ping'an, Qinghai, or it can be not mentioned in the article at all. Esiymbro (talk) 05:32, 10 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have any sources that support your claim? (that he was born in Hongya, Ping'an, Qinghai) --Dereck Camacho (talk) 07:31, 10 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia summarizes what reliable sources say, Esiymbro. So, please furnish links to reliable sources other than the Laird source that report that the 14th Dalai Lama was born in the Republic of China. Even more importantly, what do the full range of reliable sources say? Cullen328 Let's discuss it 07:38, 10 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Dereck Camacho:: See the Taktser article. A small inaccuracy is that Ping'an was not established yet back then, instead it should be Xining County.
@Cullen328:: "Now he [Reting] announced that the letter a that he had seen stood for Amdo, a part of China's Tsinghai Province with many ethnic Tibetans." "Moreover, these officials did not like the idea of focusing the search for the new Dalai Lama in Chinese controlled territory, since this could give the Chinese a lever to increase their influence in Tibet." "In July 1937, after the entire team went to Sining to pay a courtesy visit and present gifts to Ma Pu-fang, the semi-independent Moslem warlord in control of the area, the search continued for stories of remarkable births of male children." - pp.315-316, A History of Modern Tibet by Melvyn Goldstein.
"Keutsang Rimpoche's search party encountered some difficulty in bringing its candidate to Lhasa from Taktser in the Kokonor [ie. Qinghai] region, which formerly was a Tibetan territory and now under Chinese administration. The representatives of the Kumbum monastery and the Muslim Governor of Ch'inghai, Ma Pu-fang, demanded proof that the Taktser candidate was the reincarnation of the Dalai Lama." - p.284, Tibet, a Political History by Shakabpa.
These are not only reliable, but probably the best sources on modern Tibetan history. Esiymbro (talk) 10:16, 10 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
One more reference:
Gyalo Thondup and Anne F. Thurston, The Noodle Maker of Kalimpong: The Untold Story of the Dalai Lama and the Secret Struggle for Tibet, PublicAffairs, 2015, 384 p.
P. 25: « A few days after the search party departed, some fifteen soldiers from the army of Qinghai's governor-general, Ma Bufang, suddenly arrived at our house. Ma Bufang was a Hui, a Muslim, from a powerful military family. In 1928, After Chiang Kai-Shek became president of the Chinese Republic, Qinghai (Amdo) had been officially designated a province, and Ma had assumed the post of governor-general. » --Elnon (talk) 12:02, 10 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Ok let me see if I get it; the article currently says he was born in Taktser but according to Embryo should be Hongya, Ping'an, so which one is it? Or are the same place with different names? --Dereck Camacho (talk) 15:42, 10 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Esiymbro and Elnon, those are excellent sources. Thank you. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 17:20, 10 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
They are the same place. Taktser is more commonly used in the sources, so I see no problem with this. The real issue is the second half of the address, though. Esiymbro (talk) 17:32, 10 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Which is? --Dereck Camacho (talk) 17:34, 10 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You mean...? Esiymbro (talk) 17:46, 10 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
More about the Dalai Lama's birthplace. In her book Le vieux Tibet face à la Chine nouvelle originally published in 1953 (and republished in 1999 in Grand Tibet et Vaste Chine, Plon, 1999, p. 979), French Tibetan Buddhist Alexandra David-Néel ventures that the young boy is perhaps "half Chinese" (« peut-être à moitié Chinois »), being "a native of Amdo, a territory administered by China" (« natif de l'Amdo, un territoire administré par la Chine »). --Elnon (talk) 21:31, 10 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What is the "second half" that you oppose. I don't follow. --Dereck Camacho (talk) 02:58, 11 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe Mongolian (Mongour). The DL looks Chinese. 109.157.169.205 (talk) 04:51, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Well, when Scotland gets its independence, then those born in Scotland will no longer be born in Britain (and notice I said Britain and not England). People often choose to ignore and "forget" that the term China includes Tibet, in exactly the same way that the polity called the United Kingdom includes the lands of England, Scotland and Wales. 109.157.169.205 (talk) 04:47, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"14th" vs. "fourteenth"

As far as I can see, according to the Wikipedia Manual of Style in MOS:ORDINAL (which refers to MOS:NUMERAL), Wikipedia spells out numbers from zero to nine in words, in article text. This also applies to titles, according to MOS:AT. That means we should have article titles "First Dalai Lama", "Second Dalai Lama" and so on. Numbers greater than nine, which require two words or less, can also be spelled out, and this should be done for consistency. That means the title of this article should be "Fourteenth Dalai Lama", not "14th Dalai Lama", and this style should be followed throughout the article, and all other "Nth Dalai Lama" articles. "Fourteenth Dalai Lama" is also used by many reliable sources, as cited in the article. Unless someone has another explanation, I would like to propose that this change be made. --IamNotU (talk) 20:53, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. Your reasoning seems sound, and agrees with the guidelines.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 21:55, 20 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No objection on my behalf. --Dereck Camacho (talk) 00:59, 22 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
IamNotU, Agree but should be at Tenzin Gyatso. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 02:34, 10 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Enthronement

The date of 22 February 1940 as his enthronement ceremony is only mentioned in the lead and in the infobox. The "Life as Dalai Lama" section goes on to say On 17 November 1950, at the age of 15, the 14th Dalai Lama was enthroned formally as the temporal ruler of Tibet. So this is a little confusing. The source for these dates says he was enthroned in 1940 and assumed full political power in 1950, so this should be cleared up. —howcheng {chat} 17:30, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Numbering Question

Technically, it would not be right to say that he is the "14th Dalai Lama" because in Tibetian Buddhist tradition, there is only one Dalai Lama that continues to be reincarnated. I would change the title to just Tenzin Gyatso, or 14th Reincarnation of the Dalai Lama. KingWither (talk) 14:22, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

In this edit: [1], IP 2001:818:e8f1:2a00:f4f4:ec22:9412:d190 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) added an external link to an essay on a personal website. This type of link is not allowed, according to the content guidelines at WP:ELNO#blog, number 11: Blogs, personal web pages and most fansites (negative ones included), except those written by a recognized authority. (This exception for blogs, etc., controlled by recognized authorities is meant to be very limited; as a minimum standard, recognized authorities who are individuals always meet Wikipedia's notability criteria for people.). The author of the essay (who is not the same person as Ricardo Costa) does not appear to be a recognized authority, nor to meet Wikipedia's notability criteria, so I removed the link.

Newly-registered user Wikstroler (talk · contribs) has re-added the link, without giving any explanation. I have again removed it, for the reason above, and ask that it not be re-added a third time unless some valid reason is provided for contravening the guidelines. Thanks. --IamNotU (talk) 18:55, 12 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricardo_Costa_(r%C3%A9alisateur) French

https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricardo_Costa_(cineasta) Portuguese

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricardo_Costa_(cineasta) Spanish


The article is certainly an important contribution to understanding Dalai Lama’s role and thought. Please keep the link.

Thanks,

--User:WikstrolerIWikstroler (talk) 20:11, 12 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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