Talk:Russian invasion of Ukraine

Link to most recent closed and archived RfC: Talk:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine/Archive 11#RfC on Western support to Ukraine

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The heading above is a link to the RfC: Talk:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine/Archive 11#RfC on Western support to Ukraine, closed 30 December 2022.

See also earlier RfCs: Talk:2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine/Archive_9#RfC on "Supported by" in the infobox for Ukraine, closed 9 June 2022; and, Should the individual arms supplying countries be added to the infobox?: closed 6 March 2022. All RfCs were closed with "no consensus". In the most recent RfC, the closer made the following statement:

Also, can we not do this again in a couple months? There is WP:NODEADLINE, and there is sure to be plenty of academic studies and expert writings that will provide excellent context and sourcing for what, exactly, should be listed in that infobox parameter. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:04, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

Cinderella157 (talk) 06:13, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Strengths in infobox

• It makes absolutely zero sense to remove Wagner Group out of the infoboxes as they are one of the largest groupings of Russian forces and the ones participating in the most active fighting. Oh. And the info is sourced too. Please stop trying to remove them. Volunteer Marek 23:23, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
  • Also, it doesn’t make much sense either to have only the numbers at the beginning of the invasion. Why is only that relevant? Why aren’t we informing our readers of the forces that are actually taking part i. The fight? Who decided that it must be this way? Volunteer Marek 23:27, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

    Agree.  —Michael Z. 23:30, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

  Seems off-topic, but Wagner is not a sovereign belligerent power, it is a component of Russian forces. It shouldn’t be there unless we start listing military and paramilitary units. DLNR should probably be removed too.  —Michael Z. 23:29, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

  Okay, after a closer look I see it is broken down by major services, although Russian paramilitaries are missing (Russian Guard, OMON, SOBR, border guards, &c), and probably Kadyrovites.

  Is the Wagner number right? Recently I saw 10k mercenaries and 30k convicts estimated in a source somewhere. Or are these numbers as of February 24, 2022?  —Michael Z. 23:53, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Yes that’s why it should be in the “Strength” section rather than the “Belligerents” section. Btw, is Russia still officially denying that Wagner is unaffiliated with the Russian state? In terms of numbers, this is what the source says though there may be different estimates out there. Volunteer Marek 01:04, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Well now we have the problem that there are sources for different strength figures from February 2021, and January, February, and December 2022. The figures should be comparable, or if they’re not then at least with an indication of time frame and potential change.  —Michael Z. 01:12, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Most obvious problem: it’s missing 300k Russian mobiks. Etcetera.  —Michael Z. 01:15, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

We could list both initial and current or just current. Just initial makes no sense though. It’s like omitting US from the WW1 infoboxes. Volunteer Marek 02:26, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

A lot of this infobox doesn't make sense. I could support this idea however I disagree with Wagner being listed separately. How about we list "Russian paramilitaries" and then have a note with all Russian military units not part of the Russian Armed Forces fighting in Ukraine? There is no reason only Wagner should be given relevance. Super Ψ Dro 14:28, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

There’s a very obvious reason why Wagner should be given relevance. Several actually. First, and most importantly, they are the mercenary group most discussed in sources. Second, they are by far the largest mercenary group, bigger than many of the regular Russian army formations. They are also the most active, taking part in the most intense fighting around Bakhmut and Soledad. Fourth, they are also the most notorious and well known, given their record of war crimes and links to neo Nazi organizations. But really, the first reason is sufficient. Volunteer Marek 16:08, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

And then someone else will come and say the second most relevant mercenary group should also be mentioned for X reasons. If we're to add this kind of organization I say we add them all. The Wagner Group can be mentioned, but in a note I say. The aim of this infobox should be to be comprehensive and include all Russian military units of any kind and we clearly shouldn't list all of these separately. Super Ψ Dro 19:58, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Volunteer Marek, your edit to the infobox re adding Wagner to the strength has been contested. Per WP:ONUS, a consensus to add this information should be established before reinstating your edit. There are no reliable sources that give comparable strengths of the two belligerents except at or about the start of the invasion. For this reason, it is the standing consensus to report the strength at that time. Cinderella157 (talk) 06:21, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

It is not “standing consensus”, it’s just something that you just invented. There are several users who reverted you and several users who agree that it makes no sense to only have initial strengths in the info box. It makes absolutely zero sense to exclude the biggest and most active formation fighting on the Russian side from the infobox. And yes there are reliable sources. I added one (for Wagner group). You just removed it. Volunteer Marek 07:32, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

PS - Given the standing of the existing consensus (it has been stable for a considerable period), an agreement between two editors without a reasonable chance for others to contribute really isn't enough to establish consensus for the change and accusing others of edit warring probably isn't civil. Cinderella157 (talk) 06:29, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

There is no “standing of the existing consensus”. “We’ve always done it this way” is not an argument. The only reason this info was in the box as you want it is because ***it was outdated*** and nobody has bothered to update it. You are basically edit warring to keep the info outdated. Why? Volunteer Marek 07:32, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Volunteer Marek, we (editors here collectively) have chosen to report the initial strength of the two combatant sides as at the start of the invasion since this is the only point in time for which we have a comparison of the two strengths. I stated this above: There are no reliable sources that give comparable strengths [empasis added] of the two belligerents except at or about the start of the invasion. The source you give (or at least your edit) does not establish a comparison as at December 2022, since it reflects only one side (and then only one part of one side). Over the course of time, some additional figures have been added and removed - upon discussion and without anybody getting their knickers in a twist upon collegiate civil discussion. [revised since it is alleged that the initial characterisation of these those discussions was uncivil. Cinderella157 (talk) 03:34, 22 January 2023 (UTC)] The number of Ukraine reservist was removed because these were not mobilised and did not form part of the initial strength. Volunteers have also been added and then removed for the same reason. We have FAQ 5 on this point. It explains the consensus and acknowledges that things can change. It would be wrong to assert that this hasn't been changed because nobody has bothered to update it. As far as I can see, you are the only person that has reinstated your edit, so several editors (more than two) would be incorrect. Also, as far as I can see, Michael is the only other editor that has expressed any support for your edit - again, a couple of editors that agree is not several. WP:ONUS (part of a policy) and WP:BRD are quite clear on the need to establish a consensus (through civil discussion) once an edit is challenged. Casting aspersions (it’s just something that you just invented) and making allegations of disruptive behavior (You are basically edit warring), are neither civil nor a collaborative way to build consensus. However, if you believe that my conduct in reverting your edits was disruptive, this is not the place to make such an allegation. It should be raised at ANI or similar (or redacted). Cinderella157 (talk) 13:52, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Cinderella157, you are trying to speak collectively for “we, the editors” which you simply cannot do. Show me the discussion or RfC where it was decided “only initial strengths go into infobox”. If such a discussion exists I’m not aware of it.

Regarding FAQ #5, it only concerns reservist. And frankly I have no idea why that’s there. There is no discussion anywhere which decided that this is how we’re going to do things. There are two discussions in the archives (Archive 9 and 10 I believe) where someone basically says “why are we doing this?” and then YOU and ONLY YOU disagreeing with them. The FAQ itself was added on March 1st (also without discussion), a bit more than a week into the invasion. The “initial strengths only” thing made sense back then. It doesn’t make sense now, almost a year into the invasion. Indeed, the FAQ clearly states This may change in future when more information becomes available.. Guess what? It’s changed.

Likewise your insistence that “there are no sources” is simply false. I added a source for Wagner. You removed it. Sure, “there are no sources” if you remove them. But please don’t pretend that such sources don’t exist.

It’s likewise false that saying “you are editing warring” is “making allegations”. You made 3 reverts in less than 24 hours. Of three different editors! [1], [2], [3], [4], [5]. That’s “edit warring” under even the most charitable interpretation of “edit warring”. If you had made one more revert I would have simply reported you. And yes, I will do that if you continue (as is standard procedure, you get a warning first).

Finally, your assertion that I’m the only one who is trying to make these changes and only Michael supports me (which would still be more support than you have) is likewise false. Here are three other editors restoring my changes in whole in part [6], [7], [8], [9]. If I’m the “only one” here, how exactly did you manage to revert three different editors in less than 24 hours?

And WP:ONUS can be abused. If I “challenge” having strengths in the info box at all, does that mean that you’ll have to start an RfC to restore it? By omitting important information - like the fact that the Wagner Group is currently the strongest and most active Russian force in the war, which seems kind of, you know, pertinent - we are simply misinforming our readers. Volunteer Marek 15:55, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

And speaking of incivility, you don’t think that expressions like telling an editor that they’re, quote, “getting their knickers in a twist”, isn’t uncivil? Volunteer Marek

No I don't think that characterising the past discussions that way is uncivil but since you allege that it is, I have struck the phrase. As far as I can see, you are the only editor that has inserted the Wagner Group material. You may not like WP:ONUS but it is part of policy that does require discussion to achieve consensus before the re-addition of contested material. What I actually said re sources was: There are no reliable sources that give comparable strengths ... The source you give (or at least your edit) does not establish a comparison as at December 2022. It is a misrepresentation to say Likewise your insistence that “there are no sources” is simply false. Cinderella157 (talk) 04:44, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Holy crap, I just noticed that three of the five sources for “strength” in the infobox are from… 2021! So it’s not even “initial strength” but “strength one year before the invasion”. This is really really sloppy and bad. Desperately needs updating. Volunteer Marek 16:34, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

And ooops, the two other sources are from Feb 2022 but they’re 2021 data. So this is just pure original research and the claim that these are “initial numbers” is just a misrepresentation of sources. Volunteer Marek 16:37, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Strength update

The infobox “Strength” section is pre-invasion and rightly tagged as “needs update.” Here’s a proposed update that adds uncontroversial figures for widely known changes, helping convey the dynamics of the last year.

Strength

Russia Pre-invasion: 169,000–190,000 (including military, paramilitary, and 34,000 separatist militias) Partial mobilization Sep 2022: +300,000 As of late 2022: +50,000 mercenaries

Ukraine: Pre-invasion: 196,600 military 102,000 paramilitary Active strength Jul 2022: 700,000

References

Better sources are welcome, but I think these are considered reliable and get across the gist of what is knowable about committed strengths (losses are a separate issue and a separate table row). —Michael Z. 17:22, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

A minor point in interpretation: the Russian pre-invasion figures are the estimates of forces that were positioned in and around Ukraine in a ready posture one week before the invasion. The Ukrainian pre-invasion figures are active forces in 2021, but given that Ukraine mobilized on invasion+1, it is a reasonable start number. I believe there may be sources that improve on the Ukrainian figure more specifically on Ukrainian forces’ status and numbers in Jan–Feb 2022, including Territorial Defence forces that were training intensively at the time (but please offer numbers in service, not anticipated numbers to be recruited).  —Michael Z. 17:30, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Not a bad idea. Volunteer Marek, we could add a note next to "+50,000 mercenaries" listing all of these kind of groups, or at least the major ones. What do you think? Super Ψ Dro 19:58, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

That should work. Volunteer Marek 20:12, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Can we go ahead and implement this? Current infobox is kind of ridiculous. Volunteer Marek 15:03, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

I support it. Also, since my comment about commanders was left unreplied, I will take the liberty to add some relevant commanders. I'm expecting a revert in a few hours. Super Ψ Dro 10:12, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

This not a summary per se but a collation of information. There is nuance to these figures which is best dealt with in the body of the article. Suitable infobox entries would report "peak strength" or the total which has|was committed. We have no knowledge of either of these figures. The tabulation gives us no comparison at a particular point in time. Per FAQ 5, the only comparison we have at a particular point is at or about the beginning of the invasion (and the figures are reported as such). Unless there are other sources giving revised figures as at that point in time, these figures for the starting strengths are not requiring an update. In my opinion, the tagging serves no useful purpose in respect to building a consensus for change. Cinderella157 (talk) 03:26, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

We're still listing almost one-year old figures that have doubled or tripled ever since. Of course the tags are necessary. Super Ψ Dro 12:51, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Per FAQ 5 This may change in future when more information becomes available. Volunteer Marek 16:00, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Commanders

Since we're discussing parts of the infobox that have been left untouched for months, I was wondering if we could get something out of discussing the commanders section. There are several other figures we could add. Denys Pushylin, Leonid Pasichnyk, Sergei Shoigu or Oleksandr Syrskyi come to my mind. Super Ψ Dro 20:06, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Russo-Ukrainian War lists commanders, and so do Southern Ukraine campaign or Kyiv offensive (2022) for example. Super Ψ Dro 20:10, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Pushilin and Pasichnyk are civilian occupation officials. I don’t believe they are in the military chain of command, and I highly doubt they have any influence on military operations apart from having to manage civilian adjuncts like conscription and PR in the colonies. Absent references supporting that they actually influence command of the DLNR formations (which are under command of the 8th Combined Arms Army), I would not include them.

“Commanders” should certainly have the soldiers with the highest profiles:

AFU C-in-C Valerii Zaluzhnyi.

Zaluzhnyi’s counterpart as armed forces commander is Russian CoGS Valery Gerasimov.

And his counterparts as commander of military operations have been Russian “SMO” commanders Valery Gerasimov (appointed Jan 11), Sergey Surovikin (Oct 8), Aleksandr Dvornikov (c. April 10,[10] possibly sacked in June)[11], and before that no overall command of the four separate military districts.[12]  —Michael Z. 17:18, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Command is vital to military success and in this case an important explanation for the overall Ukrainian success and Russian failure. It is an egregious omission that this overview is still missing from the infobox eleven months in.  —Michael Z. 17:22, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

I added all those you mentioned, plus Syrskyi for commanding the defence of Kyiv and organising the Kharkiv counteroffensive. I thought of adding the DLPR leaders since Putin and Zelenskyy are both included, but really I am not sure of the official (not de facto) powers the DLPR leaders have in comparison to the other two. Are there other commanders we could add? Super Ψ Dro 21:27, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Russo-Ukrainian War includes Prigozhin in the list of Russian commanders. Which is a bit strange in my opinion. We should either include him here or exclude him from there. Super Ψ Dro 21:29, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

When it comes to Prigozhin, I think he has potential to be included someday, but not yet. He's only really been important in Soledar and Bakhmut so far, I believe. I'd exclude him from both articles for now, but be open to adding him back in if he continues to be consistently relevant. HappyWith (talk) 22:53, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Comment There is an RfC awaiting close that directly relates to this at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Infoboxes#RfC about exceptions to WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE and commanders/leaders in Template:Infobox military conflict. It would be prudent to pause this discussion until the RfC is closed. Cinderella157 (talk) 03:49, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

You've removed information based on a two-month old RfC with five participants? Sorry but no. The relevance of some of the added commanders is reflected on the article, exactly as you want it to be. There is no reason to remove anything. Super Ψ Dro 09:40, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Super Dromaeosaurus, you added the content with a statement here: I'm expecting a revert in a few hours. You are aware of at least the most recent discussion on this and a position that: in accordance with WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE and Template:Infobox military conflict, the body of the article should evidence how/why a particular leaders/commander was key or significant to a conflict through more than a passing mention that they simply held a position. (quoted from the RfC with punctuation amended) You have reinstated edits to the template prior to posting here. You have also made some minor edits to the article with respect to the names you would add (also before your initial edit to the template for them). You initial edit was reverted, citing WP:ONUS, which places a burden to establish consensus. By your actions, I am not seeing that you are engaging in a collegiate way to establish consensus. In the earlier discussion, I stated that inclusion of Aleksandr Dvornikov might meet the threshold because one mention did suggest something of some substance, but nobody was actually prepared to consider and discuss this specific case as an exception among the others.

I agree with Mzajac when he states; Command is vital to military success and in this case an important explanation for the overall Ukrainian success and Russian failure. I also agree with what follows but for different reasons. It is an egregious omission that the article does not address how [c]ommand is vital to military success and in this case an important explanation for the overall Ukrainian success and Russian failure. We should focus on remedying the body of the article rather than trying to write the article in the infobox. Name-dropping to create passing mentions is not a solution to the fundamental issue identified by Michael. Improve the article and the rest will follow naturally without disruption, conflict or a need to force the issue. Cinderella157 (talk) 11:25, 22 January 2023 (UTC) PS you still haven't established a consensus exists for the material reinstated. Cinderella157 (talk) 11:33, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

I made that statement because I imagined someone would object for some reason, as happens with literally any change in the infobox. I opened this subsection for discussing the issue days prior to me including the commanders on the infobox, and there was no objection, even though there was enough time to express so. I did seek consensus, and anyway, now that we're discussing this the process is continuing. By the way, through my initial comment in this subsection you can realise I was not aware of earlier discussions on commanders.

I am willing to improve the article to support the inclusion of commanders here, but I would like to receive an example from you. What is an article supposed to say about commanders for them to be included? There isn't really any appropriate place to do so here. I added a second mention to Syrskyi in the main body, he could be the first focus of this effort. Super Ψ Dro 12:24, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Ok Super Dromaeosaurus, let's start with a clean slate, though it would be nice to revert the changes to the infobox until we come to a consensus. It is getting late here but basically it is what Michael said, explaining how command (and commanders) have been vital to success or failure. This would then evidence why particular commanders have been key or significant to a conflict and justify their inclusion in the infobox. This is the short version. I will get back to you with more detail. Good night and regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 13:05, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

I self-reverted. I am not sure how could this be explained. We have several sources discussing the importance of Syrskyi. He quite literally came up with the Kharkiv counteroffensive ("Since at least the spring, Syrsky had been considering the Kharkiv region", "When orders went out from the Ukrainian General Staff last summer for commanders to come up with possible diversionary operations to draw Russian forces away from the defense of Kherson, Syrsky knew what he would propose."). We also know some tactics he used in Kharkiv were replicated by Ukrainian commanders in Kherson ("Tarnavsky, the new commander, said he applied some of the principles he and Syrsky had used in Kharkiv, attacking where the Russians least expected it."). He is even said to be "the most successful general of the 21st century so far" [13]. Do you propose I add information of this kind into the article? Super Ψ Dro 13:24, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

I posted a request for closure. IMO this is ridiculous: posting an obtuse RFC about a template that affects thousands of articles, letting that discussion sit stale, and demanding that progress halt here indefinitely. It’s disruptive.  —Michael Z. 15:18, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Super Dromaeosaurus, the longer version. King George was an important and significant leader of the UK during WW2 but he is neither mentioned in the infobox nor the article at all and without detriment. I said that Aleksandr Dvornikov might meet the threshold. This is because the article states: They also benefited from centralising command under General Dvornikov. This is a pretty thin statement but at least it [begins to] shows that his command was in some way significant and he isn't just a talking head. If the source allowed us to attribute the changes reported in the preceding sentence to his leadership, then we would be closer. This counteroffensive was led by general Syrskyi, the one mention in the body is a passing mention. It is telling us nothing about the significance of his leadership, only that he was there. Zaluzhnyi is mentioned once for reporting that an explosion was caused by a missile attack. That could have been done by anybody in government. Describing him as a major Ukrainian commander during the war tells us nothing of substance. Surovikin is mentioned thrice but in reality, the prose could be rewritten to one mention without any loss of information. How is the Gerasimov doctrine relevent to this article or is it just there to mention his name again?. That is why the status quo really doesn't support adding others than the two presidents. To the type of things you suggest - yes. The aim is to show (critically) how their command has influenced the course of the battle (good or bad) and thereby establish for the reader why they have been key or significant to the conflict. Closely paraphasing Michael, The aim is to show how command has been vital to military success (or failure) and in this case an important explanation for the overall Ukrainian success and Russian failure. This might actually become a section. I do hope that this is helpful. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 03:48, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Images of commanders

Note: This is a discussion fork not directly related to the discussion of commanders in the infobox. I have moved the image from where it was dropped in mid discussion to where it is actually being commented on. Cinderella157 (talk) 04:24, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Left to right: Aleksandr Dvornikov (Commander of Field Operations in 2022), Sergey Shoigu (Defense Minister) and Valery Gerasimov (current Commander of Field Operations and author of the Gerasimov doctrine, assigned in 2023 after Dvornikov)

@User:ErnestKrause, regarding the image box above, Zhuravlev was commander of the Western MD, never of the overall campaign as far as I can tell from sources. —Michael Z. 18:36, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Out with Zhuravlyov and in with Gerasimov. Images updated. ErnestKrause (talk) 18:51, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

So how about one box with Reznikov and Zaluzhnyi, and another with Shoigu and Gerasimov? These are the people at the highest level, they are recognizable and in the news, and they have been constant throughout the conflict.

An alternative would be to contrast one with just Zaluzhnyi, to another with the parade of Russian supreme theatre commanders Dvornikov, Surovikin, and Gerasimov.  —Michael Z. 06:22, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

There was, a few months ago, an image of Putin with Shoigu in the prefatory sections here which has since been archived. I'm thinking that it might make sense to include in the Phase 3 section an image of Gerasimov since he is currently the one in charge for Russia. Possibly Cinderella and Super Dro may have an opinion if you ping them. ErnestKrause (talk) 17:19, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Is there an actual proposal to go with this? Cinderella157 (talk) 04:26, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

I'm thinking that the approach is either to revive the Putin-Shoigu image which was released, or to include some version of Michael's suggestion about the Russian big-3 multi-image, or to just add an image of Gerasimov to the Phase 3 section. Any preferences from other editors about which images might improve the article? ErnestKrause (talk) 22:50, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

If Michael would like to restore the previous image of Putin with Shoigu, then I'll likely support him. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:44, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Updates to Infobox after several months; version on display now seems to be getting old

Another editor (Mrnddude) has suggested that several of the issues about the Infobox be discussed for possible updates. Given the large changes in geopolitical organization of Southeastern Ukraine since the annexation of DPR and LPR last September, then this type of review seems timely. The points presented by the other editor are:

1) The conversion of 'supported by' to 'military alliance with'.

2) Moving DPR and LPR from subjects of Russia to annexed by Russia, with the addition of the line:

3a) Previous allies annexed after 30 September 2022 or;

3b) Proxies annexed after 30 September 2022.

4) The addition of (no military alliances) beneath Ukraine.

5) A new proposal to add the line Ukraine is not a member of NATO and has no military alliance with America. These should be discussed and implemented with consensus, not prior to it.

Mrrndude's request for informal comments I assume means that editors can pick and choose which topics they wish to discuss or comment on from the above list. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:48, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Weakly support #1, oppose everything else. None of these are that ideal, and aside from maybe #1, all of these seem either unnecessary or too wordy. Almost all of these proposed changes are either already in the footnotes, or can be added to the footnotes without the infobox looking too cluttered. XTheBedrockX (talk) 19:15, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Support for #5. After reading through the 3 inconclusive RfCs from last year in 2022, then one of the major difficulties with the comments from drive-through editors leaving comments was that they did not know that Ukraine was not a member of NATO and that Ukraine had no military alliances with any member state of NATO, and no military alliance with the United States. If this information could be added to the Infobox, then a great deal of wasted time on 2022's three inconclusive RfCs could have been avoided. A repetition of those 3 inconclusive RfCs in 2023 would seem wasteful of Wikipedia contributor time and effort. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:48, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

What? Do you think those discussions were unsuccessful because several editors were not aware of this basic fact? Super Ψ Dro 17:39, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

I'm surprized by the number of editors who do not appear to know that Ukraine is not a member of NATO and that Ukraine does not have a military alliance with any member state of NATO. ErnestKrause (talk) 21:45, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Support for #3a. Per discussion above, it’s long past due for the strength numbers to be updated. There’s been a big mobilization in Russia. There’s tens of thousands of Wagner mercenaries. It’s a very different situation than in February and having an outdated infobox is a huge disservice to our readers. It’s basically like leaving out United States out of the WW1 infobox.

Having said that, I don’t think 1) or 2) would make sense although 3b would. I don’t see that much importance in 4 or 5. Volunteer Marek 16:05, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

I've added support for 3A above for format consistency and you can change it to any format you prefer. I'd ask you to mention if stating that Ukraine has no military allies in the Infobox is either relevant or not. It seems that many drive through editors do not know this or appreciate its relevance when they leave comments here on the Talk page. ErnestKrause (talk) 16:11, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Re the alliances thing, I appreciate and understand the intent. I’m not sure if this is the best way to do it, purely for stylistic reasons. Right now I’m neutral on that. Volunteer Marek 16:32, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose all. I don't see why would we need any of these and I don't see why there's a timely need for an update after 30 September 2022. Super Ψ Dro 17:39, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose all. As I have said in the previous disputes, the DPR and LPR still exist within Russia, they still field tens of thousands of troops, and remain active belligerents in this war. The current version already makes it clear that both have to be treated as Russian proxies. The notes explain all other details. Adding a shortened comment outside the notes and thus treating them as no longer existing is plainly false. In addition, ErnestKrause's proposed chunk of text looks (at least in my opinion) clunky, confusing, and ugly. Regarding the "military alliance" part, this would also be a major oversimplification. Applodion (talk) 17:43, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose #1 – per WP:OR, Belarus' support and acquiescence is a grey area that probably falls below the standard most people would consider a "military alliance" (although by allowing Russian troops to invade Ukraine from its territory, it likely doesn't fall below the standard of belligerent under intl law). I'd only support #1 if sources were brought here to show that Belarus' relationship to Russia is called a "military alliance" by RS. I read a pretty wide range of expert commentary about Ukraine daily and this doesn't match my experience.

No strong preference with regards to #2. I'm sympathetic to the idea of mentioning their annexation, but as others have pointed out the reality on the ground seems to be that they retain similar autonomy to before. If others are in favour of #2, I support #3b and Oppose #3a for the same reasons as #1 (WP:OR – what sources have called it an "alliance"? They are proxies/puppets, not partners).

Strong oppose #4 and #5 – unnecessary and problematic. I explained my rationale at length here. Jr8825 • Talk 17:54, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose all. 1) makes it seem like Belarus is actively fighting, supported by is much more reflective of the situation. 2), 3), and 4) are not needed due to the notes already included there. 5) would just be a strange thing to add. Yeoutie (talk) 05:25, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose  Belarus is listed because it is guilty of aggression by allowing attacks and invasion through and from its territory. Russia’s formal military allies include members of the CSTO, and they certainly don’t belong in the infobox for it. DLNR should probably be removed or qualified with some label, since the pretence that they were sovereign belligerent parties has been abandoned, but this proposal is too non-specific (what is “moving from subjects” in terms of concrete text changes?). The other bits I’ve responded to elsewhere. These things should be discussed separately and worked out before a vote. WP:SNOW close for this 5-part proposal may be appropriate. —Michael Z. 06:09, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Oppose all - None of these seem necessary or improvements to the article. #5 seems particularly odd. Agree with Michael Z there is reasonable cause for a close with WP:SNOW. BogLogs (talk) 11:51, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Comment. No comment from Mr rnddude? ErnestKrause (talk) 21:45, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Per the request for input from Ernest Krause and direct ping here.

Neutral #1 - Supported by is standard usage in such templates for non-belligerents that have substantial involvement (in this case allowing belligerent troops to invade from their soil) in an action. Military alliance with has a problem because it ignores whether an allied state is a belligerent or not and vice-versa whether a belligerent is in an alliance.

Oppose #2 - This implicitly provides legitimacy or potential legitimacy to the actions of Russia in seizing Ukraine's land (Донецьк [Donets'k] and Пуганськ [Luhans'k] Oblasts in 2022). Caution should be exerted when labeling these illegal annexations. That said, mention of the DPR and LPR is unavoidable and footnote [a] does a decent job of providing context. Consequently, #3a and #3b are unnecessary, though if #2 is implemented, I prefer the concise wording of #3b, with some clarification that these are not legitimate annexations (either a separate footnote or just the word 'illegitimate' or 'illegal').

Oppose #4 and #5 as also unnecessary. The majority of readers can comprehend that Russia and Ukraine are the only belligerent participants in this war, and that part of the invasion started from Belarus (Russia has no easy way of getting to Чорнобиль [Chornobyl'] or Київ [Kyiv] otherwise). That said, I don't mind introducing footnotes into the infobox akin to those at Russo-Ukrainian War linking to the list of materiel, medical, and humanitarian supplies suppliers which is List of foreign aid to Ukraine during the Russo-Ukrainian War. It's reasonable for en.wiki to acknowledge the billions of dollars of materiel being supplied to the belligerents (Russia is receiving materiel support from Iran, for example ; Ukraine from ... pretty much everyone else, for all other examples). At the very least, it should stop further complaints asking Why is Western support not mentioned? and accusing You guys are POV pushing. on this talk page. Mr rnddude (talk) 05:14, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Oppose all - I had thought that indicating military alliance/no military alliance might have been relatively non-controversial but there is enough opposition (with reasons given) to not support this as a way forward. As for the DNP and LNP, they were belligerents at the start of the invasion. Their international status is not a reason for omitting them. The footnote made their status clear. That their status has changed in the course of events is equally covered by the amended footnote. Cinderella157 (talk) 09:34, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

LNP, Cinderella157? I didn't know the coalition had joined the invasion. DPR/LPR or DNR/LNR are the two proxy states, which was probably intended. Mr rnddude (talk) 12:16, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Mr rnddude, everybody is allowed to have a good laugh at the slip of my fingers. Cinderella157 (talk) 12:54, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

New articles are needed

New articles are needed because new battles broke out during December and January. There are at least five new current and potential hotspots, and one new hotspot in the south was opened by the Russians today, which should be monitored in the coming days. It is the offensive near Orihiv. However, there are three or more battles in Donbas that are worth mentioning.

1. Battle of Bilogorovka - A very serious and active front that lasts for a long time from November or December. Active and heavy fighting is on the edge of that city.

2. Battle of Serebyanka - The front was opened on Tuesday, January 17, after the Russian capture of Soledar with the aim of approaching Seversk from the north.

3. Battle of Velyka Novosilka - I drafted that article in the DRAFT category, and the Russians launched an offensive against this town in early January. I'm not sure the battle gained momentum, but the fighting intensified.

4. Battle of Orikhiv - The Russians launched an offensive today. We will know whether it will continue in the coming days.

5. Second Battle of Siversk - The first two battles that I consider to be active and ripe for a new article are aimed precisely at the Battle of Siversk. Whether that battle will take place depends on how strong the Ukrainian side will be to resist Russian pressure at Bilogorovka and Serebyanka. — Baba Mica (talk) 21:08, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Correct spelling would be Bilohorivka, Luhansk Oblast, Serebrianka, Donetsk Oblast.  —Michael Z. 06:12, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

OK. I am terribly annoyed by this violent Ukrainization of Russophone cities in Donbas where I can't manage now with the grammar of changing letters (from "o" and "e" to Latin "i" which has nothing to do with the old Ukrainian language). These linguistic laboratory experiments cause me a lot of problems in the English language as well, because Wikipedia, following the anti-Russian hysteria of the political elites, tries to adjust itself with grammatical corrections, which leads me to write "wrongly" because the old names remained in my memory, and now they are being changed artificially on the fly .

Belogorovka = Bilohorivka

Avdeevka = Avdiivka

Orehov = Orihiv

Makeevka = Makiivka

Severodonetsk = Siverdonetsk

Seversk = Sieversk

What grammatical hell. Especially on the Ukrainian Wikipedia, where I don't know what is Cyrillic and what is Latin when I want to translate something from Ukrainian sources and find more detailed information about an event because there is a war going on there. This whole Ukrainian cliché is followed by the Wikipedias of Western countries (especially in English) and then the names are changed on the fly, and if I write an old name, then I am criticized because I write "incorrectly". Unfortunately, everything is politics. And Wikipedia is an instrument of daily politics which is changing on the fly. Yesterday one rule applies, today another rule applies, and tomorrow the third rule applies or it will go back to the first rules. It all depends on the results and the final outcome of the war. Until I recover my health, I will not be able to create new articles and someone should try to dig up the english, ukrainian and russian sources of the start of the battle of Bilohorivka. I think it started in late November or early December last year. The Russians are there non stop at the entrance to that little place but they can't take it at all for two or even three months while the Ukrainians dug in there with the aim of having from there a springboard for an attack on Lysychansk and Sieverdonietsk. God grant that I spelled these last names correctly. — Baba Mica (talk) 13:53, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Countries and cities change names based on events. The cities of Leningrad and Stalingrad are examples that quickly come to mind. Granted everyone can be cut a little slack when the names are changed very recently. BogLogs (talk) 08:58, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

There's a pretty big difference between cities formally given entirely new names (as with Leningrad/St. Petersburg and Stalingrad/Volgograd), and the less-organized adoption of new spellings of the same name on the fly, not least because some of the Ukrainicized corrections may not enjoy WP:COMMONNAME status in English press yet. It's a messy situation complicated by the ongoing war, as the long-term COMMONNAME may well end up dictated by which country ends up holding a given location once the dust settles. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 19:24, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

I can see your point but that sounds like reasoning for not updating names until the end of war (which would require quite a crystal ball to forsee). For now if Ukraine changes the names/spellings we should do our best to follow them as they become theWP:COMMONNAME.Or at the very least to mention both the new and previous ones in articles introductions. BogLogs (talk) 23:58, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

The solution is that we follow COMMONNAME, which may well mean that some places get spelled one way today and another way next year. There's no sense waiting because we don't even know what to wait for: the needs of the encyclopedia's readers dictate that we should use the most recognizable names to the readership. Recognizability is also context-dependent, which is why we still write Chicken Kiev or Battle of Lemberg while articles about modern topics will use modern spellings. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 00:26, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

That’s nonsense. There’s a standardized system for romanization of Ukrainian place names, and it’s almost identical to the most widely used other system in the English language (ALA-LC), unlike in Russian. Ukrainian-derived names are practically all widely accepted now except like two: Chornobyl and Prypiat.

You can complain about the “messiness” to the Russian and Soviet colonizers and to the Russian invaders, because we can’t do anything about that. —Michael Z. 00:12, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Orikhiv (х = kh, г = h, ґ = g), Sievierodonetsk (Сєвєродонецьк, an exonym from Russian), and Siversk. Just deal with it. —Michael Z. 00:04, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Seems like the fight for Orikhiv, and the whole abortive Zaporizhzhia offensive by Russia didn't go anywhere. I'd wait on that. HappyWith (talk) 16:57, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

That seems to be the case for now as far as the southern front is concerned, but we will know in the coming days and weeks. However, two battles began for two strategic cities on the Zaporizhzhya-Donbass line in the west-east direction. These are the cities and the Battle of Kamenskoe (January 22 - ongoing) and yesterday's long-awaited Battle of Vuhledar (January 24 - ongoing). Special articles with special attention should definitely be opened for these cities. For this second battle, there is already my draft from last year with certain additions to be placed in the context of the BACKGROUND and PRELUDE. If fighting breaks out for the city of Orikhiv, then there is also my draft that can be easily supplemented under the title Battle of Orikhiv (January 19 - today). Since the fighting for Orihiv has subsided compared to the period 19 - 24 January, all attention should be directed to Kamenskoe, for which a new article or draft is needed, and of course to Vuhledar, for which there is already a draft, and it is in danger of falling quickly like Berdyansk and Kherson, which the Russians captured in the first days of the war, or such as Balakleya, Kupyansk and Liman during the Ukrainian eastern counter-offensive in the fall. If the fighting continues, the article "Battle of the line Kamenskoe - Vuhledar" (January 19, 2023 -?) can be made if the Russian forces do nothing in this uproar until the German Leopards and American Abrams arrive. It can develop into real tank battles, the likes of which have not been seen in this war. The latter is a total hypothesis and we will see in the spring. Before spring, it is necessary to open at least one or two articles that can easily be merged into one big article "The Zaporizhia Offensive" (if the Russians quickly defeat the AFU) or "The Battle of Kamenskoe - Vuhledar Line" or "The Battle of the Zaporizhzhya - Donetsk Line" ( if the fighting escalates like in the western suburbs of Donetsk or on the Svatovo-Kremina line). — Baba Mica (talk) 19:12, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Change word 'illegal' in annexations for POV

Change the line

'Soon after, Russia announced the illegal annexation of four partly occupied oblasts.'

to

'Soon after, Russia announced the internationally unrecognised annexation of four partly occupied oblasts.'

(Or some similar equivalent)

The word 'illegal' is POV since under Russian law the annexations were legal. Sources also seem to stress that the 'west' specifically finds the referendums illegal. I am aware that some sources such as the BBC do outright call the referendums illegal, but it seems far more stress the west finds them illegal.

The following were not cherrypicked, they were taken straight from the top of my google search when I searched for 'Russian Annexations'

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-putin-kyiv-moscow-0e7634dcfc648276b9af1ee19535cd3f " Russia positioned itself Wednesday to formally annex parts of Ukraine where occupied areas held a Kremlin-orchestrated “referendum” on living under Moscow’s rule that the Ukrainian government and the West denounced as illegal and rigged. "

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-putin-international-law-donetsk-9fcd11c11936dd700db94ab725f2b7d6 "The annexation followed Kremlin-orchestrated “referendums” in Ukraine that the Ukrainian government and the West have dismissed as illegitimate."

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/9/30/putin-announces-russian-annexation-of-four-ukrainian-regions " Western governments and Kyiv have dismissed the hastily organised votes as breaching international law, and charge they were coercive and wholly unrepresentative." - notably the source does not explicitly use the word 'illegal'

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russias-lower-house-approves-annexation-four-ukrainian-regions-2022-10-03/ " The lower house of Russia's parliament approved laws on Monday on annexing four occupied Ukrainian territories into Russia, following hastily organised votes that Ukraine and the West denounced as coercive and illegitimate "

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-09-30/russia-ukraine-annex-is-it-legitimate-world-reactions/101485414 "Moscow is poised to annex parts of Ukraine, following what Kyiv and the West have denounced as illegal, sham referendums held at gunpoint."

I think Wikipedia should refrain from automatically taking a Western POV as an objective truth. However it is an objective fact that the UN general assembly overwhelmingly called the annexations illegal, so I think it is fair to call the annexations internationally unrecognised. 120.154.39.104 (talk) 08:19, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

However it is an objective fact that the UN general assembly overwhelmingly called the annexations illegal, so I think it is fair to call the annexations internationally unrecognised - I don't understand this logic. If the UN calls it illegal, why would we use different phrasing? Indeed, the fact that the UN has called it illegal shows that it's not just a western viewpoint. — Czello 08:49, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

The UN did not call it illegal (since the 'UN' does not have the power to do this). The UN General Assembly called it illegal, which is an assembly of inherently political nations.

The United Nations general assembly is not an objective arbiter of law - it is a political force just as any other. As can be seen from the map https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolution_ES-11/4 although the internationally community overwhelmingly called it illegal, large chunks of the third world (notably the two major powers of India and China) abstained, and is a small minority that do not believe it is illegal.

The fact that not only the government of Russia, but also the government China and the government of India clearly do not see the invasion as illegal means that calling it illegal is POV. This is in addition to the sources that often state that the annexations are viewed as illegal by the west rather than outright calling them illegal. 120.154.39.104 (talk) 09:02, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

It's worth pointing out that China and India didn't vote against calling it illegal, they only abstained. Furthermore, positioning this as a west vs east thing (where illegality is concerned) isn't accurate. There's plenty of non-western nations that consider the invasion illegal. Most of Africa and the Middle-East, south and south-east Asia, pacific islands, Japan and Korea - the list goes on. With 143 nations calling it illegal and only 5 against, I don't think it's POV to label the annexations as illegal. — Czello 09:12, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

A dose of common sense is required. The referendums were blatantly illegal under international law (one country invading then annexing land from another) and you won't find any serious experts saying otherwise. In the UN General Assembly, only Russia (the aggressor) and a handful of its most corrupt, outcast and dependent allied dictatorships (e.g. Syria, North Korea, Belarus) voted against condemning the obvious crime. That Russia's other allies and partners (China, India) abstained is in fact interpreted by experts as a rejection of the annexations: an indication they were so blatantly unjustifiable that they couldn't be supported without damage to other countries' reputations. A refusal to condemn (abstention), while a poor reflection on the governments which do so, isn't a sign that these governments' position is that the referendums were legal. Jr8825 • Talk 09:23, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

' The referendums were blatantly illegal under international law '

I agree with this, However as the article currently stands that sentence does not specify international law - it just claims its illegality in absolute terms. The annexations were objectively legal under any reasonable interpretation of Russian law, and objectively illegal under any reasonable interpretation of Ukranian law, thus saying 'illegal' is POV favouring one side.

The rest of your comment appears to be mostly speculation. 120.154.39.104 (talk) 09:34, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Stop gaslighting. The Criminal Code of Russia ch 34 defines Crimes Against Peace and Mankind’s Security:[14]

• 353. Planning, Preparing, Unleashing, or Waging on Aggressive War
• 354. Public Appeals to Unleash an Aggressive War
• 356. Use of Banned Means and Methods of Warfare
• 357. Genocide
• 358. Ecocide
• 359. Mercenarism

 —Michael Z. 19:59, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

From the wikipedia article I posted above, this is what I believe a clear summary of that resolution:

'Resolution ES‑11/4 declares that Russia's so-called referendums in the Donetsk, Kherson, Luhansk and Zaporizhzhia oblasts and the subsequent attempted annexation are invalid and illegal under international law'

Since China and India (As well as Russia) did not vote yes, they definitionally must have had at least some objection to its illegality, however minor. The question was very straightforward.

Also this is getting a little bit sidetracked but making it appear as 143v5 is slightly biased language, the opposite end of bias could say 143 countries believed it was illegal, while 50 countries did not entirely support its illegality (note this is not my specific view, this is just pointing out it is easy to twist numbers to suit an agenda, not to accuse you of specifically trying to be biased).

In terms of 'Furthermore, positioning this as a west vs east thing (where illegality is concerned) isn't accurate', I personally agree with this stance, however my personal views on this shouldn't get in the way of the fact that most reliable sources tend to paint this as a West vs Russia thing.

The word 'illegal' is definitive, and Wikipedia and its objective voice (I believe ) should not use that word specifically until there is no clear opposing view as to the absolute nature of the illegality of those referendums. 120.154.39.104 (talk) 09:29, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

I think you're making the (common) mistake of thinking that governments' official positions shape the "truth" as we on Wikipedia record it. We don't treat officials, politicians and diplomats as subject-matter experts, and therefore we don't value them to the same extent as academic or (high reputation-) journalistic sources. Because those types of sources say Russia's annexation is illegal, that's what we say too. Also, Resolution ES‑11/4 demanded Russia's immediate withdrawal from Ukraine, which is a reason why India or China could justify abstaining while still saying they don't endorse the annexations − such is the twisted world of international diplomacy. Jr8825 • Talk 09:35, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

"I think you're making the (common) mistake of thinking that governments' official positions shape the "truth" as we on Wikipedia record it. We don't treat official politicians and diplomats as subject-matter experts, and therefore we don't value them to the same extent as academic or (high reputation-) journalistic sources."

Under normal circumstances you are correct, but as this topic relates to international law, and as international law is determined by countries and their inherently political governments, I would argue it is at least tangentially valuable to determining whether the word 'illegal' should be used.

As per the comment " Because those types of sources say Russia's annexation is illegal, that's what we say too ", i believe i have supplied many reliable sources that show the annexations are phrased as illegal from a western POV rather than outright illegal. 120.154.39.104 (talk) 09:43, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Support - The unqualified word "illegal" doesn't make sense in this kind of context, particularly not before any kind of postmortem war crimes tribunal has taken place. There are plenty of more accurate terms that could be squeezed in there somewhere, like "widely condemned" or "widely recognized as illegal". Honestly though, those terms have already been covered elsewhere in the lead, so I would just recommend removing the word "illegal" and keeping the rest of the sentence as-is. --Posted by Pikamander2 (Talk) at 09:32, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Oppose there is no POV, it is objectively illegal under international law. Although you can add those three words to clarify. Synotia (talk) 10:30, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Oppose and close discussion. These annexations are illegal (under international law, Russian law can say pigs fly for all we care) and we should not spend one single minute having to discuss to prove this. It is definitively not "Western POV". Super Ψ Dro 14:08, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Oppose blatant ignorance of international law, favoring Russian law over international law — Preceding unsigned comment added by Galebazz (talk • contribs)

Well its illegal where I come from. RS say it was illegal. Slatersteven (talk) 16:52, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Oppose  The proposal’s argument is flawed. Many statements rely on false logic, for example, that because China abstained from voting in a resolution, that proves that China disagrees with a specific statement in the resolution (can you count the ways in which that is wrong?).

I believe the UN generally doesn’t say something is legal or not until proven in court. But the UNGA does make certain key statements in its resolutions, and UN agencies use them as a basis for their operations. For example, a 2017 report[15] by the UN Office of the High Commissioner on Human Rights refers specifically to two UNGA resolutions on Ukraine, and uses their language, including “temporarily occupied Autonomous Republic of Crimea and the city of Sevastopol (Ukraine),” Russia is the “occupying power,” etc. In case you don’t know, occupying sovereign territory is illegal.

Within its own area of competence, the OHCHR report also notes many, many Russian violations of international humanitarian law (IHL), UN resolutions, international treaties, and Ukraine’s constitution and laws (which the report says the occupying power is obligated to uphold according to IHL). It also notes that in 2016 the International Criminal Court found that the RF occupies Crimea.

On March 7, 2022, the UN’s International Court of Justice issued a binding order on the Russian Federation to “immediately suspend the military operations” (Ukraine v. Russian Federation (2022)). Russia illegally continued military operations. On of the judges also noted that the UNGA designated Russia the perpetrator of aggression against Ukraine.

By the way, the annexations were even against the Russian Federation’s constitution and laws, which prohibit wars of aggression and a lot of other crimes that the gangsters in the Kremlin routinely commit not only with impunity, but through direct control of Russian courts.

The wording can probably be improved, since Russia didn’t literally announce “illegal annexation” in those words. But this proposal doesn’t address that. —Michael Z. 19:59, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Support while a great number of countries and their media consider Russia's annexations "illegal", Wikipedia must remain neutral as per its policies. So therefore the wording should be changed. --WR 21:09, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

This is not a matter of neutrality, but of fact. Though I believe we should specify under international law. Synotia (talk) 21:14, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Under international law, under Ukrainian law in Ukraine, and I’m pretty sure it’s illegal under Russian law (even if you call the war of aggression an “SMO”). Every applicable law. You can qualify it if you like, but less wordy to name all of the laws under which it’s legal, which is none. —Michael Z. 00:21, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Russia has committed at least 7 of the 8 crimes against peace and mankind’s security in Russian law.[16]  —Michael Z. 20:04, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Oppose. The "Russian POV" also says that Ukraine is run by gay satanist Nazis, but we don't need to give that POV "fair coverage", per WP:FALSEBALANCE. The overwhelming majority of reliable sources call the "annexations" illegal, we don't need to cover the WP:FRINGE viewpoint that they weren't. HappyWith (talk) 21:59, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Comment The lead presently reads: ... Russia announced the illegal annexation .... The purpose of the lead is to summarise key points of the article. Content in the lead should therefore be supported by the body. A citation is generally not required in the lead on the premise that citations exist within the body to support the summarised statement in the lead. The statement in the lead may also be done in a Wiki voice if this is supported by the body of the article that the overwhelming prevailing opinion (supported by good quality sources) is that the act was illegal. Turning to the body of the article, the legality of the annexations is not raised at all. The best we have (at the Annexations section) is: Ukraine, the United States, the European Union and the United Nations all condemned the annexation. The body of the article, as it stands (stood), does not support us summarising the annexations as illegal in the lead. We have not complied with prevailing WP:P&G, permitting us to make such a statement in the lead and it might be seen as a violation of WP:NPOV. Hovever, I have now edited the body so it reads: Ukraine, the United States, the European Union and the United Nations all condemned the annexation as illegal. The body of the article now reflects the illegality of the annexations and goes some way to evidence this is the overwhelming prevailing opinion. We now have a leg to stand on but it might be stronger, since it is supported by a news source, albeit one reporting the opinions of the bodies mentioned. We would be on firmer ground by adding a note such to establish this the overwhelming prevailing opinion expressed in good quality secondary sources. Beyond this, I don't think that we need to add to the readable prose in the body of the article. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:20, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Reliable news sources like the Globe and Mail[17] and WaPo[18] say it was illegal in their own voice. That was 2 minutes of effort, and I’m sure one can find better sources, but these are sufficient. If it needs to be cited in the lead, fine with me. If the respective article section doesn’t say “illegal,” then it should be improved, because illegality is pretty much a defining quality of the invasion, occupation, sham referendum, and “treaty of annexation” signed with installed puppets in partly controlled territory of Ukraine.  —Michael Z. 03:22, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Again, we are confusing an overwhelmingly held opinion with fact. It is a fact that the UNGA has condemned it as illegal by resolution. However, the illegality itself is not a fact as would need to be determined by a competent body (ie a court with jurisdiction). Per WP:NEWSORG, the reliability of news sources is limited to fact or to attributed opinion - even then, not all news sources are considered reliable. The news sources you give are WP:RS for facts but they are only reporting the same events as the basis for their content. They are adding nothing new above that which is already cited. What I said above was: We would be on firmer ground by adding a note such to establish this the overwhelming prevailing opinion expressed in good quality secondary sources. If we are going to summarise this (and similar) in a Wiki voice in the lead, we need to hold ourselves to (and be meeting) a high standard to avoid the appearance of bias. Cinderella157 (talk) 00:41, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Once again, stating that something is illegal under international law is NOT an opinion. That is a falsifiable statement, it is either legal, or illegal, depending on what the laws and courts say. Our job is NOT to state everything as an opinion to avoid the possible appearance of bias. Our job is to summarize what the reliable sources say are factual statements. If reliable sources say that the invasions are illegal under international law, and no reliable sources contest that statement, that makes it a FACT, not an OPINION. Andre🚐 00:50, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

[S]tating that something is illegal under international law is NOT an opinion while true, misses the point entirely. Murder is illegal is a factual statement. X committed murder is an opinion until it is confirmed in a court of law. The Associated Press, Reuters, and ABC (USA) articles cited above are treating it as being the opinion of 'the West' and of Ukraine that the referendums are illegitimate and that the annexations are illegal.

Further, [s]oon after, Russia announced the illegal annexation of four partly occupied oblasts is poor writing that is not supported by the body of the article. For one, Russia certainly did not announce it being illegal. For two, the body of the article doesn't mention Russia (the nation state), but Putin: On 30 September 2022, Vladimir Putin announced the annexation of Ukraine's Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson and Zaporizhzhia regions in an address to both houses of the Russian parliament. For three, the body does not explicitly claim that the annexations are illegal, but that Ukraine, the United States, the European Union and the United Nations all condemned the annexation as illegal. There is a distinct difference between x is illegal and x has been condemned by y as illegal. The lede must summarise the article accurately.

Lastly, [i]f reliable sources say that the invasions are illegal under international law, and no reliable sources contest that statement, that makes it a FACT, not an OPINION is fallacious reasoning that I cannot overlook. An opinion does not become a fact by being widely or even universally held, nor does a fact become an opinion by being contested. Mr rnddude (talk) 02:06, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

The sources given by Michael Z. above already provide the reliable factual statement. Russia is seeking to solidify its illegal annexation[19] Russian President Vladimir Putin proclaimed that four regions in Ukraine will become part of Russia, an illegal land grab that dramatically escalates Russia’s war in Ukraine and further isolates Russia from the rest of the world.[20] Andre🚐 02:13, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

That is a falsifiable statement, it is either legal, or illegal, depending on what the laws and courts say. I have already said as much but also noted that this has not happened. The courts have not adjudicated. To the rest ... It was once the overwhelming view (belief, opinion, theory) without dissent (the church saw to that) that the Earth was flat and the universe was geocentric. Overwhelming belief in a particular view does not transmute opinion into fact. However, if one reads what I have said, I believe we might state in the lead that it is illegal in the lead in a WP:WIKIVOICE because this is [almost] a reasonable summary of the body of the article. My only reservation is that we might make the position (the body of the article) stronger. I never implied that our job was to state everything as an opinion to avoid the possible appearance of bias. The appearance of bias is like the perception of justice attributed to Lord Hewart: "Not only must Justice be done; it must also be seen to be done." We should be holding ourselves to a similar standard to avoid the appearance of bias, which is just as damaging to WP as actual bias. If we are asserting that a particular view is overwhlingly held, not only should we be able to demonstrate that it is, it behooves us to demonstrate that it is. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:41, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

The courts don't need to adjudicate. All that matters is that reliable sources have made the statement. And it has been demonstrated that they stated this. It is not a view, it is a fact, because RS stated as such. Andre🚐 02:48, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

PS There was something close to an edit conflict between Mr rnddude's post above and my post. I largely agree with Mr rnddude, though my conclusion is slightly different. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:49, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

I have said, ... we need to hold ourselves to (and be meeting) a high standard to avoid the appearance of bias. Please see WP:OUTRAGE Cinderella157 (talk) 05:38, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

No idea how you think that pertains to this. Andre🚐 05:41, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

[I]f we make a concerted effort to apply our non-bias policy consistently, those whom we consider to have morally repugnant beliefs opposite to our own may consider an insight that could change their views. Cinderella157 (talk) 06:26, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

And that has absolutely nothing to do with anything. Again, all we need to do is see if the following conditions are true 1) multiple high-quality reliable sources state fact X, 2) no other high-quality reliable sources contradict statement X. It is not a view, it is not a belief, it has nothing to do with morality or bias -- and I can't imagine a way it would. Andre🚐 06:34, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Statement 1 contains a premise not established: that X is a fact. Opinions are qualitative and subjective. If, in determining X we must make qualitative assessments to reach a conclusion, or exercise any degree of judgement, the conclusion is a belief or opinion. The statement: ... it is either legal, or illegal, depending on what the laws and courts say, and then, [t]he courts don't need to adjudicate appears to me to be quite contradictory. Cinderella157 (talk) 06:54, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Again, it doesn't matter if the courts have made a final ruling on criminality. What matters is what reliable sources state about the laws and/or courts. The UN and international courts have already stated that the invasion is illegal and ordered Russia to stop or whatever. So as a result of that reliable sources as already stated, are calling the invasion illegal. It is not qualitative, it is not subjective, and it does not require us to use any amount of judgment. We just parrot the statement made as fact in reliable sources. Andre🚐 19:20, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

The UN and international courts have already stated that the invasion is illegal and ordered Russia to stop or whatever. The article does not evidence that international courts have stated that the invasion is illegal and ordered Russia to stop or whatever. Nor am I seeing such evidence in related articles. If such sources exist, why haven't we used them? Yes, we somewhat parrot sources but sources report both facts and opinions. Cinderella157 (talk) 00:39, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

It IS already in the article but here is a basic source from our competition: The International Court of Justice (ICJ), the top court of the United Nations, has ordered Russia to “immediately suspend” its military operations in Ukraine. What does the decision mean, and what happens next? We already knew Russia’s invasion was illegal in international law. But the ICJ decision now makes it virtually impossible for anyone, including Russia, to deny that illegality. [21] Andre🚐 00:56, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

The International Court of Justice ordered Russia to suspend military operations is in the lead of the article but is unsourced nor is it supported elsewhere in the article (the IJC, either in full or abbreviated is not mentioned elsewhere). The link you cite is not cited in the article. The material linked was written in March 2022 and predates these annexations. The IJC order was made in March 2022 and in respect to Russia's invasion. One may conclude that because of the IJC order, the non-compliance and anything that follows is illegal but that is clearly WP:SYNTH. Sorry, but we all are appearing to be too liberal in how we choose to apply core WP:P&G. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:45, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

I didn't write the article, but one assumes that the statement in the lead is or was sourced in a previous version of the article. If you want to improve the article, WP:SOFIXIT. The fact remains that a court already told Russia that their actions were illegal. Russia's invasion doesn't stop when the next round of annexations start. That whole thing is the invasion (and then some). Sorry, but like I said, all that matters is how reliable sources describe Russia's actions. I already provided 3 sources that state it clearly and I'm sure more could easily be found. It is not SYNTH to simply summarize what reliable sources say. You are reaching and have a very tenuous grasp of how policies are applied and what they refer to. Andre🚐 02:51, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

The fact [empasis added] remains that a court already told Russia that their actions were illegal. Where has a court told Russia that their actions were illegal - either in respect to the annexations specifically or the invasion more generally? Cinderella157 (talk) 11:24, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Already given. Here's another source. [22] The UN’s international court of justice (ICJ) in The Hague has ordered Russia to halt its invasion of Ukraine, Is it your contention that the annexations are legal? Because no source asserts that. Andre🚐 16:26, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

My original post in this thread makes my views quite clear. The matter presented to the IJC by Ukraine is, whether the Russian claims of genocide can be substantiated and thereby form a legal basis for the invasion. The first source you would refer to (see original publication) is by Rowan Nicholson, it is to effect an expert legal opinion on the matter presented to the IJC. Nicholson makes it quite clear that the order made by the IJC is a preliminary order: This was what is called a “provisional measures” order – an emergency ruling made before the court hears the whole case; and, All the ICJ has done so far is to order provisional measures. It has not even found conclusively that it has jurisdiction in the case. It might be a long time before it decides the case as a whole. News sources, such as your second are often more liberal (not as circumspect) in their reporting and would report (attributing to the court president): the court “is not in possession of evidence substantiating” Russian allegations of genocide on Ukrainian territory. From the order made: The Court can only take a decision on the Applicant’s claims if the case proceeds to the merits. At the present stage of the proceedings, it suffices to observe that the Court is not in possession of evidence substantiating the allegation. In fuller context the meaning is somewhat different. The IJC is not asserting at that time that such evidence does not exist but (as Nicholson concludes) hint[ing] it is receptive to Ukraine’s arguments. At para 77 of the order: In light of these circumstances, the Court concludes that disregard of the right deemed plausible [empasis added] by the Court (see paragraph 60 above) could cause irreparable prejudice to this right and that there is urgency, in the sense that there is a real and imminent risk that such prejudice will be caused before the Court makes a final decision in the case. There is no finding by the IJC that Russia's invasion is illegal. To assert there has been is either a gross misunderstanding of process or a gross misrepresentation of fact. The court has not already told Russia that their actions were illegal. Cinderella157 (talk) 03:35, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

That's not what the sources say, and that is your original research and WP:SYNTH. Plenty of reliable sources state the invasion is illegal. Yours is a WP:FRINGE viewpoint and to emphasize would be WP:UNDUE weight. Andre🚐 05:08, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

That is precisely what the sources say. Everything in green (save the last, a partial quote from the previous post made for emphasis) is a faithful quote from the sources indicate. The common ground is, it is either legal, or illegal, depending on what the laws and courts say. The courts determine, as a fact, whether a particular matter is legal or illegal. Similarly Mr rnddude would say, X committed murder is an opinion until it is confirmed in a court. The only conclusion I reach is that the ICJ has not pronounced that either the invasion or the annexations are illegal. That is simply because the sources don't say that. There is no WP:OR in that at all. Saying: A says X and B says Y therefore I say Z would be synth but I have said noting of this sort. On the other hand, saying: the courts say the invasion is illegal, the annexations occurred in the course of the invasion therefore the annexations are illegal would be synth (not withstanding that the first premise is not a fact) only if a single source explicitly joined each premise. The argument concluding, That whole thing is the invasion (and then some) appears to be saying just that and is not supported by a source that joins those dots. I am not purporting that the invasion was legal, only that it illegality is opinion (an overwhelming opinion) and not a fact that has been stated by a court. Consequently, we should establish in the body (through good quality sources) that the illegality is the overwhelming opinion if we are to summarise the lead with a categorical statement (the opinion of a WP:NEWSORG is not a WP:RS). This can be done without mentioning the counter opinion that it might be legal. So, there is nothing fringe or undue to my position. Putting up a lot of links to WP:P&G without establishing a context for their relevance is unhelpful and appears to me to be a fallacious appeal to authority. Citing WP:SOFIXIT appears to me to be a bit WP:POTish since I have actually edited to improve this somewhat but I don't think it is enough and Mr rnddude points to a number of concerns. Cinderella157 (talk) 00:33, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

You're the one misreading the connection of the dots and relying on outdated sources to make an original argument that the invasion is not yet illegal despite courts and RSs already ruling it is. The RS clearly state the court ruled it DID have jurisdiction, which directly contradicts your statement, and that the invasion was illegal. Your completely tortured argument and accusing me of various nonsensical claims does not further any point. Here are more sources. Putin announces annexation of Ukrainian regions in defiance of international law. Under the annexation process, which is illegal under international law,...[23] Russia begins annexation vote, illegal under international law, in occupied Ukraine [24] Putin’s statements that Ukraine was committing “genocide” against Russians in Donetsk and Luhansk, although a thinly veiled effort to justify Russia’s use of force in the language of international law, are also not supported by the facts and would not, in any case, give Russia a right to launch an invasion of Ukraine [25] The invasion and the recent annexation are illegal under international law — as was the invasion and annexation of Crimea in 2014. These actions threaten not only Ukraine but also the principles of sovereignty and territorial integrity that form the basis for the peaceful coexistence of nations. [26] I can go on and on. The RS have it, Putin has nothing but bluster and lies. Andre🚐 00:43, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

If enough RS say it’s illegal then we say illegal. That’s it. That’s the policy. Volunteer Marek 08:25, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Cite the WP:P&G that explicitly says this please. Cinderella157 (talk) 09:24, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

WP:YESPOV: Avoid stating facts as opinions. Uncontested and uncontroversial factual assertions made by reliable sources should normally be directly stated in Wikipedia's voice. Unless a topic specifically deals with a disagreement over otherwise uncontested information, there is no need for specific attribution for the assertion, although it is helpful to add a reference link to the source in support of verifiability. Further, the passage should not be worded in any way that makes it appear to be contested. WP:PROFRINGE The neutral point of view policy requires that all majority and significant-minority positions be included in an article. However, it also requires that they not be given undue weight. WP:VALID While it is important to account for all significant viewpoints on any topic, Wikipedia policy does not state or imply that every minority view, fringe theory, or extraordinary claim needs to be presented along with commonly accepted mainstream scholarship as if they were of equal validity. There are many such beliefs in the world, some popular and some little-known: claims that the Earth is flat, that the Knights Templar possessed the Holy Grail, that the Apollo Moon landings were a hoax, and similar ones. Conspiracy theories, pseudoscience, speculative history, or plausible but currently unaccepted theories should not be legitimized through comparison to accepted academic scholarship. We do not take a stand on these issues as encyclopedia writers, for or against; we merely omit this information where including it would unduly legitimize it, and otherwise include and describe these ideas in their proper context concerning established scholarship and the beliefs of the wider world. Andre🚐 01:39, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Excellent. We have the guidelines.

Now when the “not illegal” proponents bring reliable sources to the table that say the invasion is legal, we can judge how much due weight to afford them. Until then, the annexation is illegal as the WP:SKYISBLUE. —Michael Z. 02:00, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Belligerents

So the belligerents section states under Russia: "Supported by: Belarus". If you're going to say this, then you need to list the USA and UK underneath Ukraine too, because they are giving them funding and weapons systems. Poland are even allowing themselves to be used for staging, exactly like the Belarus source states Apeholder (talk) 21:57, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Once again, people talking about this. It is a matter of time until Western support to Ukraine is added. Super Ψ Dro 10:03, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

And once again, the solution is to add a row for “Supporters” to template:Infobox military conflict that’s separate from “Belligerents.” —Michael Z. 18:18, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Note that once again, a drive-by editor or anon has requested this while making a ridiculous assertion like Poland is the mirror image of Belarus, both sides are the same, or Russia is defending itself from aggressive Ukrainian hospitals and kindergartens with its ballistic missiles. They’re going to keep doing this as long as Russian propaganda propagates and probably longer. Get used to seeing it another million times, and please don’t suggest that after just one more we should start treating this as a rationale to start representing something differently in the encyclopedia.  —Michael Z. 18:24, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

No, in Poland no armed Ukrainian forces have been present, none have conducted military operations into Russian or Belarusian territory, and none have launched cruise or ballistic missiles or drones at Russian or Belarusian civilian infrastructure. Belarus is a legal aggressor state. Poland has not even participated in defensive operations.

Humanitarian and military supplies have come to both Russia and Ukraine through a number of states. That does not warrant listing them under “Belligerents.”  —Michael Z. 17:31, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Watching news that keep talking about massive amount of vehicles, weapons, ammunition and other aid makes people confused. How about adding "not supported by" section to Ukraine? And then we would list all of the countries that don't support Ukraine like USA, UK, Germany, Poland Mintus590 (talk) 11:47, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

See wp:soap and wp:point. Slatersteven (talk) 12:03, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

See all the talk page entries above, and in the archive. Slatersteven (talk) 18:42, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Inviting contributions at 2023 Zaporizhzhia offensive

Inviting contributions at 2023 Zaporizhzhia offensive 🍁🏳️‍🌈 DinoSoupCanada 🏳️‍🌈 🍁 (talk) 21:24, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

I merged that article. It's an insignificant offensive. They took two villages if I am not mistaken. They tried to advance towards Orikhiv and failed. Not notable. Super Ψ Dro 09:30, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

"Syria" in infobox

Syria keeps getting added to belligerents sections of tons of articles about this war, and their only reference are a couple reports from July and October by a Syria-focused human rights group (SOHR) about single-digits numbers of Syrian army members dying. The article itself (link) calls them "mercenaries" and gives zero indication they are fighting on behalf of the Assad regime. Is this really enough to justify putting "Syria", complete with flag and everything, as a supporter in the infobox? HappyWith (talk) 22:39, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Entries of this sort in the infobox are inherently contensious and have been discussed in the past without reaching a consensus. I particularly agree with your observation re Syria. I have some reservations about Iran too, since it is "not acknowledged" and largely based on a single report (ie a report attributed to a single primary source). Placing a country in the infobox is to effect making an allegation in a Wiki voice (even if there is a footnote). IMHO, we should be treating this as WP:EXCEPTIONAL if we are going to place it in the infobox. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cinderella157 (talk • contribs)

In my opinion, Iran and Syria are different when it comes to this infobox, Iran has sent drones and other equipment to Russia, as well as personnel to assist in training of Russian drone pilots, while Syria has sent nothing, the soldiers killed were Syrian Mercenaries, not soldiers, no reason to really add them in, although id agree with adding Iran, as its not "only 1 source", numerous sources documented use of Iranian drones by the Russian Armed Forces, so, adding it as supporting Russia on the infobox is appropiate. SnoopyBird (talk) 21:29, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

No, it is not appropriate. It has been repeatedly determined in discussion that listing arms suppliers (there are dozens of them) as supporters on either side is beyond the scope intended for the belligerent section of the infobox. Belarus is included because it was used as a staging ground for the invasion. Mr rnddude (talk) 05:24, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Seems like everyone is agreeing with this. Cinderella157 has removed Syria from this page's infobox, which is great, but this misleading kind of thing occurs across a ton of articles relating to the invasion. I don't think consensus from a few editors on this page alone can be used to justify removing it from dozens of other articles, so I'm wondering: How would I go about getting consensus about Syria in the war in general? Is this the kind of thing that I would need to start an RfC for? HappyWith (talk) 17:40, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Probably an RfC here with notifications to as many pages as can be found where it is being reported. Cinderella157 (talk) 00:36, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Casualties in infobox

I understand the number of those killed/wounded varies greatly but shouldn't we write something like "at least 100,000 killed" in the infobox? Ak-eater06 (talk) 01:34, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Was discussed at length at the start of the conflict and compromise editor consensus was that it will only be said the numbers of casualties varies greatly, while linking to the casualties section, due to the high number of various estimates by Western officials, Western and anti-Russian tracking groups, UN, Ukraine and Russia. Personally, I advocated that at least the lowest and highest figures be presented as an orientational range, but general consensus was against including any figures, until established literary reliable sources confirm the numbers of casualties, which will probably happen only after the conflict has ended. EkoGraf (talk) 12:58, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

We should definitely reconsider that before this war is a year old. We don’t have to omit what sources report because of a ridiculous arbitrary threshold. “Until established literary reliable sources confirm the numbers” is complete BS, because look at every single war ever. All figures at every stage of a war and for the rest of history will have some degree of error.

To arbitrarily decide that it will ever improve at all is to look in WP:CRYSTAL balls. To

commit to not conveying this fundamental information clearly where readers will look for it is to minimize the apparent scale of the war. —Michael Z. 01:33, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

It'd require WP:SYNTH and WP:OR to provide an ultimately false estimate just for the sake of reader convenience. Further, it'd require constant updates to be remotely relevant. Figures vary so widely that our estimates for total civilian deaths in the course of the war (~ 33,000 to ~ 40,000 on the high end) as of January 2023 is less than half that speculated for the city of Мариуполь [Mariupol'] alone (~ 87,000 according to Euromaidan Press and up to ~75,000 according to AP News) in August and December of 2022 respectively. The infobox would be better served and more honestly representative if it simply said 'we don't know' than if it held some editor fabricated figure. Mr rnddude (talk) 02:59, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

I agree with Mr rnddude and the points they have made. These are essentially the reasons why consensus was reached through discussion to remove casualties from the infobox. There is too much nuance to casualty reports for it to be simply summarised and the infobox is unsuited for such nuanced material. Cinderella157 (talk) 12:03, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Agree with both Mr rnddude and Cinderella157. EkoGraf (talk) 16:08, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

When trying to find more precise numbers, I tried searching for an image I saw of "dead russian soldiers in numbered coffins being unloaded from 2xKamAZ truck ukraine invasion 2022". The handwritten numbers on the coffins were in the 3999x to 4000x range. I have not yet recovered that image. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 13:53, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Better information may be forthcoming: why is russia finally admitting to losses --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 10:39, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

In my personal opinion the most precise "confirmed" numbers of Russian dead at least may be those by the BBC News Russia/Mediazona project, but as they said their research is still ongoing and they got hundreds of deaths yet to confirm. EkoGraf (talk) 21:09, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

If that’s intended to be a reason to offer nothing, I say 1) research on this war will be ongoing for the rest of our lives, and 2) at every point in that period Wikipedia should offer the best information available, with an indication of how good it is.  —Michael Z. 22:00, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

No, like I said, I was just offering my personal comment regarding the research being conducted. As for the infobox, like I said, I am in agreement with Mr rnddude and Cinderella157 that the previously established editor consensus is the correct one. EkoGraf (talk) 12:27, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

These are the statistics from Reuters which are updated daily:

Estimated losses

From Reuters · Updated 1 day ago

Deaths

At least 42,295 people

Non-fatal injuries

At least 54,132 people

Missing

At least 15,000 people

Displaced

Approximately 14M people

Buildings destroyed

At least 140,000

Property damage

Approximately $350B

Are these numbers consistent or inconsistent with Wikipedia's version of the numbers? ErnestKrause (talk) 15:48, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

NATO

Should NATO be listed in the infobox on the right side? GamerKlim9716 (talk) 22:37, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

See Q2 of the #FAQ above. — Czello 22:38, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Infobox Location

In the Russo-Ukrainian War page it lists Ukraine, Russia, and Belarus as the location of the war. Curently the 2022 Russian invasion page just lists Ukraine plus a lengthy footnote including information on donbas, crimea, poland, and moldova. Should it be updated to simply state: Ukraine, Russia (with a link to 2022 Western Russia Attacks wikipedia article), and spillover into Poland and Moldova? BogLogs (talk) 12:51, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

The Vietnam War article does list Cambodia and Loas as part of the warfare which took place there. I'm not sure that Ukraine has any real plans to invade Russia at this time, and to turn Russian territory into war zones. ErnestKrause (talk) 17:31, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

This article already lists Russia and a number of other places in a footnote. My question is wether it would be better for readers if it is written succinctly and clearly rather than placed in an easily missable footnote.

Again, The general Russo-Ukrainian War page lists clearly Ukraine, Russia, and Belarus as the location of the war (with a link to 2022 Western Russia attacks). Wether the war expands wider in Russia or not is not the issue as it is already included across both articles. BogLogs (talk) 23:03, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Support+ Russia should be added in open text, for obvious reasons: multiple, prominent attacks on objectives in Russia.

Belarus was recently added there based on events covered in this article, after a discussion and consensus. It should be added here too, based on the same rationale and for consistency.

The “spillover” can remain in the footnote. Although it is serious, it is still not an intentional part of invasion or of a large enough scale to occupy such a prominent place.  —Michael Z. 03:42, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

I was actually slightly unsure about Belarus, if the level of activity there was enough to include it as a war location, but with those points I'd find it fine to include them as well. BogLogs (talk) 23:39, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Comment: I'm not sure, to be honest. Like the Vietnam War, it does list Cambodia and Laos being involved in the war, but it's not like that with the Russo-Ukrainian War. Military aid and missile attacks don't really count as invading(In Poland and other countries, not Ukraine). Unless military forces invade these countries, it does not count(At least for me). I'm going to be Neutral for now... ☭MasterWolf-Æthelwulf☭ (talk) 15:32, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

The infobox docs tell us location is “the location of the conflict,” not only “objective of the invader.” There have been advances and withrawals across two international borders. There have been strikes crossing one of them one way, and the other both ways. There have been infiltrations in both directions.

Launching a ballistic missile over Russia or Belarus is part of the conflict. Blowing up a strategic bomber in Russia is part of the conflict. The location we give should not pretend otherwise.  —Michael Z. 22:07, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

But then would it be the same for the Vietnam War and other famous wars then? Cuba and a few other countries were sending military aid to North Vietnam, so what does that make for the U. S. and NATO for Ukraine, right?

What if like Russia just suddenly uses missiles on the U. S.? They would not really be involved until the U. S. declares war(Like in WW2), correct? Military aid, missile attacks on different countries and declaring war are very different.

I don't want to start a argument, I don't want to start a war, I'm sticking to my comment, and that's final. ☭MasterWolf-Æthelwulf☭ (talk) 22:21, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your comment and including your reasoning. I think you are correct when it comes to belligerents, that it requires them to be fighting (though the great majority of conflicts since WWII have not had declarations of war). But the location of the war is just the physical location of the areas involved. The Vietnam War article you mentioned even lists all of these locations rather than just Vietnam "South Vietnam, North Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, South China Sea, Gulf of Thailand". Maybe you are thinking of previous discussions about listing supporters in the infobox?

Also again, and sorry if this is repeating myself a lot, the location is already accepted as including Ukraine, Russia, and others on both the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine page and the this page. If anything this is just a format change for consistency, clarity, and the benefit of article readers. BogLogs (talk) 23:34, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your comment as well. ☭MasterWolf-Æthelwulf☭ (talk) 00:51, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

New article: List of foreign leaders that have visited Ukraine during the invasion

Please feel free to add more to this relatively new article. Thanks. Compusolus (talk) 23:47, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

(The actual article link is List of serving heads of state and government that have visited Ukraine during the Russian invasion of Ukraine) HappyWith (talk) 15:50, 26 January 2023 (UTC)