Talk:Aftermath (Rolling Stones album)

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Requested move 23 April 2017

– Per Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/The Beatles and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject The Beatles/Archive 8#Parenthetical disambiguators, the definite article should be omitted for disambiguation. Articles in Category:The Beatles albums and Category:The Beatles songs use (Beatles album) and (Beatles song) for disambiguation, not (The Beatles album) or (The Beatles song). Don't Let Me Down (Beatles song) is not at Don't Let Me Down (The Beatles song). I fail to see why the Rolling Stones, another music group, should be treated any differently. feminist 10:11, 23 April 2017 (UTC)--Relisting. Andrewa (talk) 12:27, 30 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support per nominator's reasoning.--Jennica✿ / talk 10:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support; yes, the unnecessary article (The Rolling Stones album) is annoying. Rothorpe (talk) 12:21, 23 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
However, I now notice that the premise of the request is wrong. Those are only talk-page suggestions above. I'd still like to see the definite articles removed, though, for the sake of normal English. Rothorpe (talk) 19:25, 23 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. The name of the group is "The Rolling Stones", not "Rolling Stones". -- Tavix (talk) 01:25, 24 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
So what do you think of the new The Rolling Stones album? Rothorpe (talk) 01:42, 24 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You mean the new album by The Rolling Stones? Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 06:54, 24 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The new album by the Rolling Stones, the new Rolling Stones album. Rothorpe (talk) 12:05, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It would actually be "The new album by Rolling Stones" if Rothorpe's reasoning was correct - but it is not because the band is "The Rolling Stones", not "Rolling Stones". Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 16:21, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The band is indeed "The Rolling Stones". The "T/the" is dropped when "Rolling Stones" is used as an adjective. Please explain why my reasoning is incorrect. Rothorpe (talk) 16:56, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The Rolling Stones is the name of the band, so it is "The new album by The Rolling Stones", not "The new album by Rolling Stones" or "The new album by the Rolling Stones". Of course the wording could be, perfectly correctly, "The new Rolling Stones album" or "The new 'Stones album" as convenient abbreviations - but that does not change the fact that the band's full correct title has a capitalized "The". Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 18:50, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose as the main article is at The Rolling Stones and not Rolling Stones. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 06:54, 24 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Tavix and Lugnuts: the main article for the Beatles is at The Beatles and not Beatles, but Beatles albums and songs use (Beatles album) and (Beatles song) for disambiguation, not (The Beatles album) and (The Beatles song). feminist 11:10, 24 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
      • I support moving The Beatles disambiguators to match the article title. Thanks, -- Tavix (talk) 12:29, 24 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
        • The issue of "(Beatles" versus "(The Beatles" has already been discussed to death, if you would read my original rationale. feminist 16:09, 24 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
          • Then stop discussing it even more. I would support a move from (Beatles album) to (The Beatles album) but that's not what we're discussing here. -- Tavix (talk) 16:15, 24 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It's a matter of basic grammar, actually. In "Beatles album" the word Beatles has become an adjective in its position before a noun (album). It's a Beatles album. So any definite article before it refers to the word album, not Beatles. Rothorpe (talk) 13:10, 24 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per stability and not being broke or needing fixing cf Paris (The Cure album). In ictu oculi (talk) 11:17, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - The cited decision was on a specific issue and it had an unconvincing level of discussion [1], so I think it should not be used as a credible argument to make changes to large numbers of other articles.. "Lower case argument wins hands down - although I don't really feel too strongly either way, personally" typifies the level of many opinions expressed for lowercase in the RfM. The closer appears to have ignored the weight of an argument and gone for raw numbers as the decider. I also note that some supporters for lowercase also qualified their support as being just for that specific issue, that the issue did not apply to other bands, for example one comment stated "There are bands where the 'the' is an integral part of their name (The Who, The Doors, The The) and I would support the capitalization". Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 16:15, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Tiptoethrutheminefield: That particular RfM might seem flimsy, but please don't think this "The/the" issue from 2012 was decided on so easily. Wikipedia talk:Requests for mediation/The Beatles gives a fuller picture; from memory, the FAC for Paul McCartney had got sidetracked on this issue before then; and, rather embarrassingly, the RfC debate was even the subject of a report in The New York Times ... But anyway, the proposal here is not relevant to any possible The/the issue regarding the Stones; it's just about whether a definite article is necessary at all in these song and album titles. JG66 (talk) 17:12, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
This "the" issue actually reminded me of a sketch in an early 1990s TV show where someone, after giving it a great amount of thought, decides getting rid of all his The The albums is the only way to solve the important issue of where to place them alphabetically in his LP collection. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 18:25, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. There is precedent for this with the Beatles and use of the article like this before an attributive noun is ungrammatical (e.g., "I am listening to Aftermath, a The Rolling Stones album," is not idiomatic.) —  AjaxSmack  18:08, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
But nobody would actually write "a The Rolling Stones album"! It's a ludicrous analogy. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 18:28, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I think you're making my case. In most cases, a parenthetical disambiguator is a very brief description of what the entity is. I.e., Mercury (planet) is "A planet named Mercury" and Pink (singer) is "A singer named Pink". In the cases in question here, people would not say that, e.g., Aftermath (The Rolling Stones album) is "A The Rolling Stones album named Aftermath". —  AjaxSmack  02:22, 26 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I would also like to add an additional policy rationale for a move: WP:PRECISION ("...be precise enough to unambiguously define the topical scope of the article, but no more precise than that") in tandem with WP:ATDAB ("...when a more detailed title is necessary to distinguish an article topic from another, use only as much additional detail as necessary"). The use of the article is unnecessary and distracting. —  AjaxSmack  02:29, 26 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That is not the argument used by the proposer, nor is the proposer's aim so limited (restricted to just articles with album titles followed by the band's name in brackets). The Beetles "precedent" being used as a reason for this proposed title change will surely be applied to change all musician-related articles similarly titled, if this change is allowed through. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 14:45, 26 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I guess. It's a contentious and difficult question. "Rolling Stones" feels more idiomatic. Herostratus (talk) 20:40, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
An "idiomatic" argument has no validity. I can honestly state "The Rolling Stones" feels more idiomatic. Obviously what each person thinks is idiomatic is individual to themselves and based on what manner of English they speak. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 02:51, 29 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support – lukewarm. Per comments made by AjaxSmack and Herostratus. Also, looking up at the list of article titles, each one looks much better without the unnecessary "The" appearing. JG66 (talk) 21:06, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. I prefer consistency between article titles, and yes, I also disagree with the decision reached at those RFCs cited by the nominator. (Why wouldn't The Beatles at Beatles if the argument for no "The" would apply also to the band's article? Anyone ever propose that? :P) Nohomersryan (talk) 17:29, 26 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
In "(Beatles album)", "Beatles" is an adjective, so the "The" is omitted, whereas at The Beatles it is of course a noun. Rothorpe (talk) 03:43, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. What happened at the Beatles's WikiProject is mere WP:LOCALCONSENSUS. It shouldn't be taken as community consensus as the whole Wikipedia community was unaware of the conclusion of it. The result applies exclussively to Beatles-related articles, and it shouldn't be considered for this or any similar RM. The most relevant guideline concerning this RM is WP:THE, otherwise Dusk (The The album) will end at Dusk (The album) and that makes no sense. I suggest that if this will apply to all the bands that begin with "The", to take it to WP:RFC instead. © Tbhotch™ (en-2.5). 00:37, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Even if – if – it were applied to every article or song by every band with "The" in their name, those by The The would have to be exempt. I don't think there'd be a single editor who would argue with that. One might talk about "the final Byrds album", "the new Cure album", etc, but you'd never drop "The" in the case of Matt Johnson's band – it would be, say, "the last The The album", never "the last The album". JG66 (talk) 08:06, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that name was designed as an exception. Rothorpe (talk) 19:59, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'd say any name where "The" is not followed by a noun or noun phrase would be an exception to the normal rules of grammar and syntax. Such as The Who; would you say "the first Who album" or "the first The Who album"? 86.130.177.16 (talk) 13:11, 1 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
He/she says WP:THE is relevant. How? "Definite article at the beginning" this is not. Rothorpe (talk) 17:04, 29 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Starts to sing - You Can't Always Get What You Want... I'm here all week. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 16:04, 30 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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