Talk:Aghdam

Akna

It looks like this ghost town has been renamed to Akna? Can anyone confirm that? --WhiteWriter^speaks 20:27, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Агдам переименован в Акна--Melikov Memmed (talk) 10:51, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

The article when read using google translate is too vague. It seems to talk about a rural district of Agdam being renamed Akna and being incorporated into Askeran? If it is the whole of the town of Agdam that is included and if there are 360 residents there, then Agdam is not a "ghost town" with "0" population. Meowy 02:35, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I just read Nooit meer een thuiswedstrijd by Arthur Huizinga, and the author reports seeing and speaking to residents in Aghdam --- they are generally very poor people who came there for the mere reason of finding some shelter. sephia karta | dimmi 19:31, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

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Requested move 15 April 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move. Since, as Jenks points out, there are no sources provided, and the vote tally is almost equal, I see no consensus here.  — Amakuru (talk) 16:47, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

---

Agdam → Ağdam – Any reason why the 'ğ' (gh) should be 'g' in the title? Երևանցի ^talk 11:52, 15 April 2016 (UTC) --Relisted. George Ho (talk) 00:06, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

Note the related articles Agdam Mosque, Agdam District and Battle of Aghdam. —  AjaxSmack  03:30, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support consistency. In ictu oculi (talk) 15:50, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

Consistency with what? Any consistency would be consistency with Agdam Mosque, Agdam District and Battle of Aghdam, all of which do not use Ağdam. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 16:32, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

I though we were using full fonts for Azerbaijan. Where's the guideline? Where's the project MOS? In ictu oculi (talk) 06:09, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support. No reason to drop the diacritic. Cf. the other places in the area. —  AjaxSmack  03:30, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

I'm confused, people seem to be supporting saying it should be at "Agdam" yet supporting the proposal would involve moving it to "Ağdam"? --Golbez (talk) 05:13, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

"Support" means supporting the proposed move (to Ağdam in this case). This is typical move request syntax. —  AjaxSmack  05:52, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, I saw "no reason to drop the diacritic" and just ... misunderstood. And then the appeal to consistency despite the articles given without the diacritic. --Golbez (talk) 19:14, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

I didn't directly mention consistency but noted that the other places in the area use diacritics in their article titles. I mentioned Battle of Aghdam et al. (after User:In ictu oculi's post) so that others would be aware of the articles' existence and the possibility that they might need to be moved if this article is moved. —  AjaxSmack  19:33, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose. For WP:common name reasons. Agdam is by far the most common spelling seen in sources, and since its notability is overwhelmingly due to its current deserted status there is no spelling used by its population to consider. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 16:28, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Nobody's lived in Çatalhöyük for nearly 7000 years. Should we drop those diacritics too? —  AjaxSmack  19:33, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

• With using/dropping a diacritic, correct usage is one thing and typists' convenience is another thing. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:33, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Note that the diacritic "g" spelling has no long history behind it - it only dates from 1991, see Azerbaijani alphabet. The Ağdam spelling had been in official use for just two years before Azerbaijan lost control of the place. Before that, its name would have been rendered in the Cyrillic alphabet, with Agdam being the transliteration of that Cyrillic. It continues to be spelt Ağdam by Azerbaijan of course, but official spelling is not a reason to overlook common name guidance, and those that currently hold Agdam will also not be rendering its name using the Azerbaijani alphabet. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 15:27, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

• Leaning oppose. No sources provided for the proposed title and, especially important, no English-language sources provided. Jenks24 (talk) 13:19, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Categories are not just for current political arrangements

They do not belong in a history section as some editors might think. Laurel Lodged (talk) 19:25, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Agree. Prime example of this is the category "Elisabethpol Governorate" being used in most articles that were in the former Elisabethpol Governorate. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 19:28, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Categories are not just for current political arrangements

The introduction is far too long and the entire mention of a "Hiroshima of the Caucasus" is just ridiculous and unobjective. The entire article is constantly being rewritten by users such as Grandmaster, Creffel, and the thankfully banned CuriousGolden, to garner sympathy for the Azerbaijani side. "Occupation" and "self-proclaimed" are simply not objective. Refrain from doing these things over and over and over again. 80.121.97.28 (talk) 15:42, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

Introduction is just a few lines. It is certainly not long. There's a consensus in Wikipedia to call the occupied territories what they are, i.e. occupied. It applies not just to this region, but also to the Middle East, for example. Search for the word "occupied" and see what you find. Just because you don't like or disagree with something does not mean that it should not be included in the article. Hiroshima of Caucasus is what Agdam is known as. It is all sourced information. And please mind WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL. Making personal comments about other editors is not acceptable. Grandmaster 17:08, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

"Hiroshima of Caucasus" phrase promotion

The parallel to Hiroshima provided in a handful of Azeri/Turkish/pro-Azeri/pro-Turkish sources attributes the parallel to De Waals and George Mitchell [1], however

1) Thomas de Waal, a British journalist in page 6, INTRODUCTION: CROSSING THE LINE, Black Garden: Armenia and Azerbaijan through Peace and War by Thomas de Waal, NYU Press 2013 wrote

But instead my eyes were drawn to what was a small Hiroshima lying below. Aghdam used to have fifty thou-sand inhabitants. Now it is completely empty.   

2) Journalist George Mitchell, in his "Frozen War We Forgot" 2020 says "Agdam is "seen as Caucasian Hiroshima" without citing his source, and his original visit being in 2014-2015 he apparently reflects Waal's phrase, rather than coining it.

3) Journalist Onnik Krikorian tweets

The "Hiroshima of the South Caucasus" as one US diplomat called it

4) The US diplomat implied by him - Carey Cavanagh (then US Ambassador/Special Negotiator responsible for conflicts in Eurasia and concurrently U.S. Co-Chair of the OSCE Minsk Group), tweets denying he used "Hiroshima of Caucasus", by saying:

"Who called it "The Hiroshima of the South Caucasus?" In 2001, I declared 'It was turned into the largest Home Depot on the planet because local authorities had allowed all the buildings to be stripped clean for building supplies". and cites the NYT article, which says: "Little does she know that she has lost Aghdam, too. After some 50,000 Azeris like Ms. Huseneva fled nearly a decade ago, the wave of looting that followed stripped this city to its foundations. Today, Aghdam lies in spectacular ruin, a weed-infested rubble of contorted metal and toppled walls. The graffiti-covered central mosque has been taken over by about three dozen cows. Not a single building stands intact. ''It was turned 'into the largest Home Depot on the planet,'' said Carey Cavanaugh, an American special negotiator in the conflict, as he wheeled his minivan into Aghdam.

5) Waal then tweets replying to Cavannagh by saying "Hiroshima of the Caucasus was from me actually!" adding that "I may even have uttered that phrase, standing on the top of the mosque with you as you took those pictures, Onnik..."

It is apparent that this parallel coined by a single journalist in 2013, and Chinese-whispered by a handful of articles which are not even able to attribute the phrase properly, fails consensus for WP:EXCEPTIONAL rule and its citation in Agdam and related articles without attribution, simply using "sometimes referred" or "often referred" fails WP:NOTSCANDAL. It appears it is given undue weight in those wiki articles to advance official Azerbaijan's views of Azerbaijan being the victim in the conflict (Azerbaijani president Aliyev is famous for advancing this view: "Foreign journalists called Aghdam “Hiroshima of Caucasus”), breaching WP:ADVOCACY rule. I therefore suggest either OPTION 1) not using it at all or OPTION 2) using it with strict attribution to Waal, not in the lede, not giving undue weight, not citing articles that just re-cite the phrase, and in no other articles other than Agdam itself - the subject of the phrase. Best wishes. --Armatura (talk) 23:15, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

• Agree with treatment 2.Laurel Lodged (talk) 23:27, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

• Agree with version 1 - Japanese City which was not a scene of battle, ruined by atomic bomb on civilian population is entirely undue in case of Agdam which was damaged in the course of battle and without using mass destruction weapon and destruction being the side effect of battle and neglect rather than intentional wiping from the earth as the term implies. Yellow journalistic terms claimed to be invented by De Waal have no place in an encyclopedic article, plus it's lack of relevance doesn't make it reasonable to include in the article. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 00:35, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
• It is fine the way it is. We can see that in addition to de Waal, the parallel with Hiroshima is used by mainstream Western media. Euronews, France24, AP, and even Armenian reporter for IWPR. Since it is a popular reference to the present condition of the town, it should be reflected in the article. Grandmaster 10:50, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

The Armenian reporter is nowhere to be found beyond that page. See below my thread concerning your erasure of non western sources--217.149.166.11 (talk) 09:06, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

• Version 1. see below my own discourse of political hijacking by predominantly state-media--217.149.166.11 (talk) 09:06, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
• Version 1 : per Armatura's reasoning, I also suggest including a supplementary vote on whether we should educate people making and accepting such comments about what really happened to Hiroshima in detail and that none of it applies here. We shouldn't encourage lazy journalist sensationalism. - Kevo³²⁷ (talk)

I think proper RFC on this is needed, so that the entire Wikipedia community could vote on this. It is not decided by the number of votes, but by the strength of arguments, therefore it should be listed at the relevant board and eventually closed by an uninvolved user, as per rules. Grandmaster 16:17, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

You are the only one who disagrees so far, but voila, the RfC as requested --Armatura (talk) 03:01, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

"Hiroshima of the Caucasus" as political poker chip

If you search "Hiroshima of the Caucasus" with quotation marks on google you will find sources ending in .az and .tr rather than the Western sources that this article presents. : (https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&q="Hiroshima+of+the+Caucasus"&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8)

Therefore I wrote a fitting ending to the introduction which included Turkish and Azeri state media echoing the name:

"Western sources, but also Turkish and Azerbaijani state media, have sometimes dubbed the city Hiroshima of the Caucasus."

Grandmaster then removed all of this and called it "POV edits" : https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Agdam&oldid=1061977162. He then claimed that it was about "enough sources", not displaying an array of sources (i.e. Western but also Turkic govt sources.)

It is fair to re introduce these Turko-Azerbaijani sources to showcase that Hiroshima label is also hijacked to present political propaganda.--217.149.166.11 (talk) 08:24, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

It is certainly noteworthy that the phrase is being used as a political chip. Include as many citations as you want that support this political hijacking of the phrase. The original source itself is not noteworthy and ought not be given undue prominence. Laurel Lodged (talk) 10:07, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Please wee WP:OR. Claims of propaganda are not supported by any reliable third party source. Grandmaster 10:35, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

not original research. If you actually read my version instead of reverting it as "POV", you would know that I present the Azeri side just as you do the Western side.--217.149.166.11 (talk) 10:56, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

It is not necessary for editors to label it as propaganda. That need only be mentioned here in the talk page. In the article itself, the sources may be grouped and their provenance stated; readers are then free to come to their own conclusions. Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:12, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

That is exactly my opinion. I dont know why the editor was talking about propaganda portrayal since i only wanted to include the sources - it is up to the reader what to think of it. but as i said, the first thing that comes up is az and tr sites, so they should be mentioned too!--217.149.166.11 (talk) 13:24, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

"Looting"

https://www.economist.com/europe/2020/12/16/azeris-return-to-their-ruined-old-homes says

The devastation inflicted on Azeri towns during the 27 years under Armenian control will be hard to undo. The Armenian separatists who ran Nagorno-Karabakh used the districts once occupied by Azeris as a buffer zone and a future bargaining chip, making many of them uninhabitable. Buildings were bulldozed. Looters took anything the former residents had left behind. .... says Hikmet Hajiyev, an aide of Azerbaijan’s president.  

Rena Effendi, an Istanbul based Azerbaijani freelance photographer in https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/i-dont-know-if-my-home-still-exists-nagorno-karabakh-conflict says

over the last three decades, other structures had been systematically demolished, looted, and stripped bare.  

These two sources are not reliable, as one simply cites a Azerbaijani government official, and the second one cites no evidence but is an opinion piece by a photographer with apparent conflict of interest who is appears very comfortable with one-sided "Armenians are the aggressors and Azeris/Turks are the victims" view of the story popular only in Azerbaijan and Turkey. I therefore removed the sentence in the lede about looting that was based on these two sources.

Citation in the article body from HRW https://www.hrw.org/reports/pdfs/a/azerbjn/azerbaij94d.pdf stops short of mentioning that HRW also says that treatment of Aghdam is considered a retaliation of Mardakert's destruction by Azerbaijan.

 A month earlier, on June 28, 1993, Karabakh Armenian forces captured Mardakert, the last Azeri-held stronghold in Nagorno-Karabakh. Before the war, the mostly Armenian populated city was Karabakh's second largest. Reflecting the tit-for-tat nature of the conflict, in Agdam Armenian forces took revenge for the Azeri destruction of Mardakert. Thomas Goltz, who was in Mardakert in September 1992 while the city was still under Azeri control, made the following observation: "The city of Mardakert...is now a pile of rubble. After the burned houses and smashed vehicles, the eye is drawn to the more intimate detritus of destroyed private lives: pots and pans, suitcases leaking sullied clothes, crushed baby strollers and even family portraits, still in shattered frames." In TCG-33, Institute of Current World Affairs, Hanover, New Hampshire, September 18, 1992.

I therefore cited this as well, to provide a context and avoid a single-sided view on the story. --Armatura (talk) 00:16, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

RfC for "Hiroshima of Caucasus"

Should "Hiroshima of Caucasus" parallel be mentioned for Agdam, and to what extent? --Armatura (talk) 02:12, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

The sensationalist allusion to atomic bombing of Hiroshima was coined by a single journalist who is currently bragging about coining it on Twitter, misattributed to a dipomat who denies saying it, and nonetheless promoted by non-free media of Azerbaijan and Turkey and replicated by a handful of other sources without proper attribution by those very sources, further replicated in this article without any attribution. See discussion above for full details. The suggested options are

1. not using the parallel at all
2. limited use - only in the body, only in this article, with only one-two references attributing it to De Waal
3. continue using it as it is now, including in the lede of this article, and in other articles - "The city has sometimes been referred as the Hiroshima of the Caucasus".

--Armatura (talk) 02:45, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

• Do not use the comparison in any way. At all, ever. As propaganda of recent coinage, with no utility in describing the magnitude of death, injury, or destruction at Agdam. Just because comparison has been used does not make it notable or encyclopedic. Even including the comparison in Wikipedia is to push a point of view. Many cities have been raised in conflicts—most of urban Japan by the U.S. Army Air Force in the last year of WW II, for example. Other than Nakasaki, perhaps only Dresden can be a valid comparison to Hiroshima. — Neonorange (talk to Phil) (he, they) 03:59, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
• Do not use the comparison in any way - I'll add what I said above. A Japanese city which was not a scene of battle, ruined by atomic bomb on civilian population is entirely undue in case of Agdam, which was damaged in the course of battle and without using mass destruction weapon and destruction being the side effect of battle and neglect rather than intentional wiping from the earth as the term implies. Yellow journalistic terms claimed to be invented by De Waal have no place in an encyclopedic article. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 04:37, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
• Continue using. It is a verifiable information, and is used by the mainstream media such as Euronews, France24, AP, The independent, and even Armenian reporter for IWPR. In addition, it is used by Thomas de Waal in his book Black Garden, which is considered the best research on the history of the conflict, and many other publications. I don't think that the media around the world would engage in propaganda, it is just a commonly accepted alternative name of the city. Grandmaster 09:50, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

A handful of random sources, which do not always know whom they are quoting, including a few western ones likely bought by caviar diplomacy does not make it mainstream or popular. Non-free Azerbaijani mass media has an extremely low threshold on promoting sensational comparisons positioning Azerbaijan as victim to Armenian aggression, a view supported essentially only by non-free Turkish mass media. Here, Azeri Minister of Economy provides parallels between cities in Karabakh and "Stalingrad, Sarajevo and Hiroshima" . Karabakh.Center where he was making a speech, promotes "Agdam, Shusha, Fuzuli alongside Sarajevo, Stalingrad and Aleppo" narrative, citing Head of the Foreign Policy Department of the Azerbaijani Presidential Administration, Hikmet Hajiyev, who labelled Tartar as "the Stalingrad of Azerbaijan against ARMENIAN NAZISM" , for URBICIDE"... Wikipedia is not a place for national advocacy, neither it is a platform for promoting sensationalists views. --Armatura (talk) 10:56, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Could you please provide evidence for any major western news outlet using the term being bought by "caviar diplomacy" in order to do so? The reference is maid to the mainstream western media, not Azerbaijani ones. Grandmaster 11:04, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Lazy and yellow journalistic undue comparison invented by De Waal isn't a place on an encyclopedia. A couple outlets picking it up doesn't mean it should be added either. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 11:42, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

If Azerbaijan managed to buy Council of Europe by caviar diplomacy, and buy extensive UK limited partnerships by Azerbaijani laundromat, it surely can reach to a few news outlets. And Azerbaijan's hands reaching New York Times using Brenda Shaffer, a visiting researcher at the Center for Eurasian, Russian, and East European Studies (CEREES) at Georgetown University, ex-adviser "for strategic affairs" to Rovnag Abdullayev, president of Azerbaijan's state-owned SOCAR energy giant, is just one example of it. Nauseated? Me, too! --Armatura (talk) 11:41, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Again, where is the evidence that the term is being used by major international media in exchange for a bribe or something? Personal assumptions cannot be a replacement for reliable sources. Grandmaster 14:08, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Some suggestions for proponents of "continual usage": WP:NPOV (“representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views”), WP:WIKIVOICE (“Avoid stating opinions and seriously contended assertions as facts”).

Giving the nickname that much weight violates neutrality. Please see the piece where a British journalist Russell Pollard criticized the term. The phrase contributes no objective knowledge and only serves propaganda purposes. Agdam has nothing in common with Hiroshima. Agdam wasn’t hit with an atomic bomb or radiation weapon. In fact, the Azeris were firing rockets at Stepanakert from Agdam. Agdam wasn’t a civilian town, it was a military base and legitimate military target.

Just ~4 non-Azeri sources are not enough weight, it would need far greater weight to be in the lead. (WP:NPOV: “If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small minority, it does not belong on Wikipedia”). Also note that some of these sources claim the name was given by locals; this is false, it was invented by De Waal. Thus, those sources cannot be considered reliable. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 11:47, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

The term is used by a lot more that just 4. Those 4 are just the most notable. I removed some that were in other languages. And Russell Pollard is some guy who runs a propaganda website artsakh.org.uk. Agdam was the biggest city in the entire region, and civilian buildings are not legitimate targets. The city was not destroyed in fighting, it was leveled to the ground on purpose after the capture, as evidenced by Minsk Group diplomats and HRW. It looks now like a hand made Hiroshima, which is why journalists around the world use the term Hiroshima of Caucasus. Grandmaster 17:20, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

While that the comparison has been used is verifiable, that the comparison is meaningful has not been. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were each destroyed in a second, Dresden in a night, Agdam in, what, decades? Wikipedia is an organized collection of knowledge, based on reliable sources. Media-around-the-world can be lazy and contain propaganda. When a source does, that source is unreliable on that aspect of that event. Weak metaphors make for unreliable articles. — Neonorange (talk to Phil) (he, they) 08:53, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

The article does not claim that Agdam was destroyed the same way as Hiroshima, or something to that effect. It only says that it is often referred to as Hiroshima of Caucasus, which is a verifiable info. I don't see that any of the Western mainstream media are engaged in propaganda on Azerbaijani side, in particular an outlet like France24, which has always tended to be pro-Armenian, as the French media in general. Yet the term is used even in France, as we can see. Grandmaster 09:42, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

• Continue using. Some browsing shows it is being used by multiple third-party RS, such as Euronews, Institute for War & Peace Reporting, The Caspian Post. Many terms have been coined by a single person, so I see no problem with it being "coined by a single journalist". At least limited use is warranted. Brandmeister^talk 11:23, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
• Not using it in any way and keeping it in the "that was an awful idea" jar : per Armatura's reasoning in the previous discussion, I also suggest including a supplementary vote on whether we should educate people making and accepting such comments about what really happened to Hiroshima in detail and that none of it applies here. We shouldn't encourage lazy journalist sensationalism, (Yes i just copied what I wrote above) it's an extremely stupid invalid comparison when you get do your research and actually compare the two cities together. - Kevo³²⁷ (talk) 11:43, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
• Continue using - the article only says that some commentary refers to it as such. Clearly it's not an accurate comparison to Hiroshima, however the article isn't saying that, it just says that some commentary (for whatever reasons) refers to it in that way. The RS linked in the article is quite clear that it *is* in fact referred to as such. Deathlibrarian (talk) 07:55, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

• Do not use the comparison in any way. I agree with this option as the creator of this RfC. We cannot really say that Agdam is “Hiroshima of Caucasus” in Wikivoice, and weakening “sometimes has been referred to as” doesn’t really save the situation. Reference in France24 or AP doesn’t either, as the quotation of that pretentious nickname in the sources is problematic as well, as demonstrated above. --Armatura (talk) 11:35, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
• Continue using per Deathlibrarian. Whether one would like it or not, the city is called that way. It has international coverage as well — Toghrul R (t) 09:10, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
• Do not use the comparison in any way per Neonorange, Armatura and ZaniGiovanni. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 14:28, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
• Do not use — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.149.166.67 (talk) 16:49, 12 January 2022 (UTC) - banned user. Grandmaster 19:32, 13 January 2022 (UTC)
• Comment By the way, "Hiroshima" is not unique to Agdam, we can see how Azerbaijani propaganda machine is using the "Hiroshima" analogy trick toward other Azeri cities damaged in 2020 NK war. Aliyev's chief propagandist Hikmet Hajiyev, who shamelessly lies in front of BBC camera that "Armenians never ever lived in Jabrayil", instead of answering the question why Azerbaijan destroyed the Armenian church switches to "eight of our cities were destroyed by Armenians, it's like Hiroshima", watch the video from 12:15 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lsq8db5-8I. So much for truth, due weight and value for Wikipedia... --Armatura (talk) 15:04, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

  That is because every settlement in 7 districts that were under Armenian occupation looks like Hiroshima. It is enough to check the photo and video footage of those areas. What is propaganda here? And the term is used not just by Hajiyev, it was coined by Western journalists and is used by the mainstream international media. Btw, that BBC report shows the town of Jabrayil that looks like another, smaller Hiroshima after the Armenian occupation. But Agdam is the biggest city of the region, which is why it is often compared to Hiroshima by the journalists. Grandmaster 17:02, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Yes, every settlement in Artsakh was hit by Armenian nuclear bomb! What else!134.69.198.198 (talk) 17:04, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Competence to differentiate propaganda from neutral-language facts, I would be concerned if an experienced editor like you starts having trouble with differentiating the obvious, Grandmaster. This is WP:NOTAFORUM, so I will just bring the definition of Propaganda to answer your question. --Armatura (talk) 19:07, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

"Propaganda is communication that is primarily used to influence an audience and further an agenda, which may not be objective and may be selectively presenting facts to encourage a particular synthesis or perception, or using loaded language to produce an emotional rather than a rational response to the information that is being presented. Propaganda can be found in news and journalism, government, advertising, entertainment, education, and activism and is often associated with material which is prepared by governments as part of war efforts, political campaigns, revolutionaries, big businesses, ultra-religious organizations, the media, and certain individuals such as soapboxers."

I don't see how the above definition it is applicable to this situation, unless you can prove that Euronews, France24, AP and many other mainstream Western media are engaged in the propaganda in Azerbaijan's favor. Grandmaster 19:35, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

That's what I am saying - Wikipedia:Competence requires basic ability to differentiate the dry from the wet. The ONUS is on you to prove that a loaded sensationalist comparison mechanically duplicated by a few sources without any jurnalistic etiquette whatsoever has any value for Wikipedia. If one can't / won't see the propaganda, then retiring from extremely vigilance-requiring and sensitive AA topic and editing less controversial topics where there is less propaganda, may not be a bad idea. --Armatura (talk) 19:53, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Once again, I don't see how this term is propaganda. If it is a popular reference to this city, then there is nothing wrong with informing the reader about that. And accusing all the major Western media of lacking journalistic etiquette is a bit too much. Grandmaster 19:57, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

And btw, even Armenian media makes analogies with nuclear weapons. This is an article by an Armenian journalist, titled "Did our people use a hydrogen bomb in Aghdam and Zangelan?" [2] I'm sure you will not accuse Armenian media of propaganda in favor of Azerbaijan. Grandmaster 19:49, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

After seeing you are citing "Ruben Vardazaryan из Фейсбука" (some random guy's Facebook post about unheard "hydrogen bomb") as "even Armenian media supporting your point of view", I now have serious concerns about your methods and ability of choosing sources. I will think of opening a discussion about your apparent inability to source and edit neutrally, Grandmaster. Maybe take a day or two off to cool down, to avoid a drama board. --Armatura (talk) 20:04, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

This is published at Epress.am, which is a media outlet in Armenia. Grandmaster 20:13, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

• I am giving to the support of this. After all, the majority says that the comparison is unduly.134.69.198.198 (talk) 15:21, 16 January 2022 (UTC) — 134.69.198.198 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. Grandmaster 19:40, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

So? What are you meaning?134.69.198.198 (talk) 19:47, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

"New editors have the right to be treated with respect and civility; but they should also be aware that, while courtesy and a warm greeting will usually be extended, they may be subject to more scrutiny in the early stages of their editing as other editors attempt to assess how well they adhere to Wikipedia standards." It says. Please be civilized — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.69.198.198 (talk) 19:47, 16 January 2022 (UTC)