Talk:Disinformation in the Russian invasion of Ukraine

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Goliath74 (talk | contribs) at 23:34, 11 September 2023 (→‎Questionable article). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Regarding a section I have added on Ukrainian bots

I recently added a sub-section on how around 90% of bots posting on the invasion are pro-Ukraine. I have used a source from The Print and the official website of the University of Adelaide. RT has also reported on it. Should I add the RT piece as another source (its article is a mix of analysis and biased pro-Russia rhetoric) or leave it? Thanks. RealKnockout (talk) 13:28, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"and that an overwhelming majority of these bot accounts" - not in source. Manyareasexpert (talk) 18:34, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
When this gets published in a peer reviewed journal we can add it. Volunteer Marek 20:11, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Joshua Watt: "I am a lead author on this paper and I would like to point out that you have misinterpreted our results. We found that approximately 90% of ALL accounts contributing to the online discussion surrounding the war are pro-Ukrainian, not 90% of the bot accounts." Kleinpecan (talk) 20:25, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Kleinpecan Yet in the same thread one of the user has posted the Australian source with ~80% of pro-UC tweets coming from the bot net, reaching 50K tweets per day. [[1]] Pixius talk 12:23, 28 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
https://declassifiedaus.org/2022/11/03/strongmassive-anti-russian-bot-army-exposed-by-australian-researchers-strong/ Pixius talk 12:23, 28 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I too agree. Based on that, we have consensus do not include this. My very best wishes (talk) 02:50, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Page title should be Russian Disinformation in the 2021–2022 Russo-Ukrainian crisis

Spiking propaganda and disinformation levels before an invasion has been proven to be effective multiple times in history. But, given the focus and coverage of mostly Russian disinformation, shouldn't this article be renamed to "Russian Disinformation in the 2021–2022 Russo-Ukrainian crisis" from "Disinformation in the 2021–2022 Russo-Ukrainian crisis"? I was confused as to why some disinformation spreading through western or UA offician channels which was discussed in our own western sphere wasn't included here.

In another note, in some sections it seems really unsubstantiated in some claims, sometimes pointing to sources whose original journalist sources have been retracted, or the infamous I'm of X origin thereby I can't be Y whereas there's actual articles raising concerns for a rise of Y. I'm sure there's guidelines accounting for bias and fallacy arguments for the editors.   eagleal  10:05, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Generalization of Jewish people in the Allegations of Nazism section

It says "The Jews of Ukraine similarly rejected Putin's propaganda", linking to History of the Jews in Ukraine, but the source for this statement is a Politico article with quotes from interviews with Jewish Ukrainian civilians. Suffice it to say an ethnoreligious group as a whole is *not* capable of accepting or rejecting propaganda, Individuals and organizations are. Language like that does NOT belong on Wikipedia. It would be best to scrap this line and replace it with mentions of the relevant statements by President of the Union of Jewish Religious Organizations of Ukraine, Yaakov Bleich. 169.226.26.112 (talk) 15:15, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Kyiv regime" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Kyiv regime and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 October 25#Kyiv regime until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. QueenofBithynia (talk) 20:20, 25 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed name change

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved to Disinformation in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. (non-admin closure) ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 08:06, 2 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]


Disinformation in the 2021–2022 Russo-Ukrainian crisis → Disinformation regarding the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine – As the disinformation is much more related to the 2022 invasion of Ukraine rather than the 2021-2022 Russo-Ukrainian Crisis (which is now recognized as the prelude to the invasion), shouldn’t this article be renamed to something related to the invasion, not the crisis (such as “Disinformation regarding the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine”)? RiverMan18 (talk) 02:45, 26 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This page ignores any shred of WP editing standards

Someone had even written "Ukraine doesn't have nazis - Zelensky's mother is Jewish". The level of brain rot here is staggering and the Wikipedia principles have clearly not been adhered to, but who cares if the point is to spread propaganda? Saying Zelensky's mother is Jewish is the equivalent of "I'm not racist, I have a black friend". Meanwhile, here are a list of articles from reliable sources that give a more accurate picture of Ukraine, but as they're pre-2022, you won't be able to list them on here:

[2]Profile: Ukraine's ultra-nationalist Right Sector

[3]Fears grow as Ukraine rightwing militia puts Kiev in its sights

[4]BREAKING BODIES TORTURE AND SUMMARY KILLINGS IN EASTERN UKRAINE

[5]Ukrainian Far-Right Extremists Receive State Funds to Teach "Patriotism" Apeholder (talk) 21:37, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above “brain rot” comment doesn’t exactly adhere to Wikipedia principles, either. And the sources are obviously chosen to demonize Ukraine and not to offer a neutral WP:POV and WP:DUEWEIGHT on disinformation during the invasion. If you like Amnesty, just browse through the headlines on their Ukraine news[6] and research[7] pages for an overview.
Interested in fascists in Ukraine? Let’s see what scholarly sources are writing in the last year about ukraine russia war fascism, as indexed by Google Scholar.
When Ukraine’s elected president was a Ukrainian, Russian disinformation insisted he was a secret Jew. Since Ukrainians chose a Jew, it insists he is a secret Nazi. The more things change, eh?  —Michael Z. 19:07, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Michael You didn't really think that one through did you? You're basically saying "those articles don't put a narrative out there I want, try this narrative instead" and then you have the audacity to talk of a neutral PoV. Why are your articles fine to cite from, but different articles from the same outlets with just with not so much of pro-Ukraine bias, are unacceptable? How are you promoting a neutral PoV? Apeholder (talk) 16:37, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
None of your pre-2022 sources is about this subject. Think it through.  —Michael Z. 17:42, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Mzajac But these articles tell about the Nazi ideology in UC and the WP page states that this was a casus belli for RU to attack the UC Pixius talk 12:04, 28 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia is a pro-American, pro-Western source that draws almost exclusively from sources ran and controlled by western oligarchs, this is why the page is such a shitshow. bree Breeboi 13:21, 24 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not only does this article ignore editing standards, it also breaks the rules against agenda-pushing and presents an anti-Russian/pro-Ukrainian Point Of View. Given this, should not Wikipedia delete the whole article and start again? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.166.154 (talk) 13:24, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Azov

Either claims or rebuttals about Azov are conspicuously absent from the nazi section. Sennalen (talk) 01:53, 21 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Works cited

The attached article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court_investigation_in_Ukraine) used as empirical source material, list allegations, NOT evidence. in fact, the evidence (" "), is merely here-say based on few testimonies which are mostly second or third-hand, very limited, if at all, access to areas where levied charges took place and otherwise absolutely NO investigative evidence to not only justify levied charges, but justify why this organization should be treated by readers as a reputable, objective, or an authoritative source. It should be explicitly noted when 501(3)c,d,b's or combination of the sorts are agenda driven TAX-EXEMPT corps and have motives ($) for any lack of scientifical or empirical data driven analysis. NOTE IT 2600:8803:8600:3D00:6E:27D0:CE20:2E73 (talk) 10:51, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 15 April 2023

Change "In early 2023, BBC and Logically reported that Russosphere was created by Luc Michel, a Belgian far-right activist" to "In February 2023, a Logically investigation revealed that Russosphere was created by Luc Michel, a Belgian far-right activist" PurpleAsgard (talk) 16:42, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Question: why? M.Bitton (talk) 00:54, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
 Not done for now: Remember that extraordinary claims require extraordinary sourcing; there needs to be a lot of evidence from multiple independent reliable sources to make such a matter-of-fact claim. Actualcpscm (talk) 21:53, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Questionable article

Beyond the serious WP:WIKIVOICE issues in this article, it seems to pass off political narrative as "disinformation". Much of the content of this article talks about Russian "talking points" (as they are known nowadays). Talking points are not disinformation per se. They are simply narrative. This article seems to me a combination of WP:SYNTH and WP:OR build under a WP:NOTHERE premise. Entire thing should be scrapped. Its a good effort in terms of political propaganda but its not encyclopedic. Qayqran (talk) 18:45, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The only propaganda here is what you attempted to introduce into the article. Reverted. Zaathras (talk) 19:16, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Correction: the only propaganda here is the whole article. Or does the Ukrainian Govt never put out sexed up/dodgy information? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.166.154 (talk) 13:38, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The opposite of your point is not what Ukrainian Government does or does not do. It is a fully legitimate undertaking to highlight Russian Government's disinformation efforts as pretext to their full invasion of Ukraine. Goliath74 (talk) 23:33, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Snake Island Campaign

This section doesn't describe anything that can reasonably be characterized as "disinformation". If this story does involve disinformation, then it needs to be clarified. Failing that, I propose to delete the section.

MrDemeanour (talk) 10:03, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Always delete delete delete.... 2A02:C7C:E0AC:3200:FCF6:93AA:2E8:9B2B (talk) 14:21, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
 Done. I deleted the section. HappyWith (talk) 15:45, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ukrainian Southern Offensive

"Disinformation" usually means attempts to deceive the public; this section describes the perfectly-normal effort of an armed force ettempting to deceive their adversary about their intentions. If that's disinformation, then every military operation in history has involved a degree of disinformation.

I propose to delete this section.

MrDemeanour (talk) 10:08, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody objected, so I went ahead and blanked the subsection.
MrDemeanour (talk) 12:30, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Censorship

None of the three parts of this section describes anything that can be characterised as "disinformation". Rather, the policies described are apparently intended to combat false information delivered by publishers. Censorship is not disinformation. I propose to delete this section in its entirety.

MrDemeanour (talk) 10:15, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody objected, so I went ahead. MrDemeanour (talk) 12:27, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It is obvious that the Russian government is punishing the dissemination of any information that contradicts the official narrative in order to support its propaganda and disinformation aimed at Russian citizens. In this case, the connection between disinformation and censorship is quite clear. -- Tobby72 (talk) 19:31, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Formerly for Azov?

As User:HouseOfChange, requested I would like to discuss the usage of the term "formerly" for Azov. My reasoning for it, is as follows. It is not the job of wikipedia to come to a definite conclusion on the nature of something like Azov. Doing so would fall under own research. As we can seen in the Azov Batallion page, there are differing points of view given that argue that Azov was not deradicalised. Thus, it is inappropriate to include "formerly" here as this is Own Research and there is a lack of consensus. Genabab (talk) 11:47, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Genabab: Here is the phrase in its context: While Ukraine, like many countries, has a far-right fringe including the Svoboda party and (formerly) the Azov Battalion...
Rather than removing the word "formerly" (thereby asserting that Azov is currently an example of far-right fringe,) let's meet your concern by removing the contested mention of Azov entirely, leaving only the Svoboday party as an example of Ukraine's far-right fringe: While Ukraine, like many countries, has a far-right fringe such as the Svoboda party.. HouseOfChange (talk) 12:09, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That sounds like a good compromise. I agree. Genabab (talk) 12:17, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hurray good idea, I agree. Elinruby (talk) 17:03, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 12:10, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

General mobilization

This should probably be added to the section on Russian mobilization: [8]. 93.72.49.123 (talk) 23:27, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Chinese man pretending to be Russian soldier

I wonder if this should be mentioned in the article. Although the influencer was promoting the Russian cause, he doesn’t seem to be linked to the Russian government, and his actual motive seems to have been financial (he was trying to sell imported Russian goods to his fellow Chinese). Still, it’s technically an example of misinformation, if not disinformation. 2604:2D80:6984:3800:0:0:0:FE1B (talk) 01:02, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 28 June 2023

Add a hatnote linking to Wikipedia and the Russian invasion of Ukraine to "Claims Wikipedia is publishing false information". 93.72.49.123 (talk) 15:23, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Mattdaviesfsic (talk) 19:21, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

prigozhin

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/jul/01/yevgeny-prigozhin-russian-media-erase-warlord-wagner-moscow Elinruby (talk) 20:41, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Gross overrepresentation of Russian disinformation, lack of coverage on Ukrainian

In Poland and probably other Central and Eastern European countries Russian disinformation is marginal and comabted by state, having little effect and available mostly for those actively searching for it, while Ukrainian disinfo is widespread on social and traditional media, amplified by local propaganda and having huge influence over public opinion. Article has extremely unequal coverage, ignoring more prevalent Ukrainian disinformation. 77.112.89.237 (talk) 08:21, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The issue is that Wikipedia goes off what our reliable sources say, which (at least in English) heavily focus on Russian disinformation over that of Ukraine. If you have any reliable sources in any language which cover the issue of Ukrainian disinformation and its spread on social media, feel free to add it to the article or discuss here first if you'd prefer. GnocchiFan (talk) 11:22, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Russian information war against Ukraine

Isn't this article just covering the same material as Russian information war against Ukraine? Like, it basically only covers Russian disinfo, some of which isn't even during the full-scale invasion. A merge might be a good idea. HappyWith (talk) 15:47, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I agree that there is a lot of overlap. I think merging this article with the Russian information war against Ukraine is a good idea, but willing to be swayed by other editors. GnocchiFan (talk) 15:52, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

why is western disinformation and propaganda mostly ignored in this article?

the western propaganda and narrative and disinformation campaign has been very intensive. the institute of the study of war which i often see references to is run by neo-conservatives which is often cited as source for most “reliable” sources according to wikipedia and also i do not understand how ukrainian news sources such as pravda.com.ua can be considered as “reliable”. is wikipedia hijacked by the neo-cons and neo-libs? i don’t understand Bogomoletsilizarov (talk) 15:43, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The sourcing used in this article represents mainstream opinion. Yes, ISW is considered a reliable source. If you feel there is information to be added around "western" disinformation then please list sources that reflect this. — Czello (music) 15:47, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Since, along with this article, most media reports are one-sided and lacking in balance, is there any real need to present evidence of Western propaganda and disinformation? For is not this a clear case of people being innocent until proven Russian? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.166.154 (talk) 12:51, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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