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Identity of Caitlyn Jenner.
Wikipedia guidelines, in the form of MOS:GENDERID, respect Caitlyn's right to self-identification. Because Caitlyn has expressed her wish to be referred to as Bruce in the context of discussing her past, this article primarily refers to her by that name. This follows the guidance of MOS:GENDERID for articles other than the main biography of a trans or non-binary person.
The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to gender-related disputes or controversies or people associated with them, which has been designated as a contentious topic.
This article should adhere to the gender identity guideline because it contains material about one or more trans women. Precedence should be given to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, anywhere in article space, even when it doesn't match what's most common in reliable sources. Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. Some people go by singular they pronouns, which are acceptable for use in articles. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. Former, pre-transition names may only be included if the person was notable while using the name; outside of the main biographical article, such names should only appear once, in a footnote or parentheses.If material violating this guideline is repeatedly inserted, or if there are other related issues, please report the issue to the LGBT WikiProject, or, in the case of living people, to the BLP noticeboard.
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Change the name of Bruce Jenner to Caitlyn Jenner because that's her name. 96.28.104.1 (talk) 02:30, 19 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Not name used at the time of marriage to Kris. This article is about Kris Jenner, not her ex. Geraldo Perez (talk) 03:38, 19 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Is there a reason why this guy has been permitted to essentially make himself the lord of this post without any oversight?
People have expressed genuine concerns surrounding the repeated misnaming of Caitlyn Jenner - concerns that (as several people have pointed out) ARE SUPPORTED BY WIKIPEDIA POLICY on how trans people's identity's should be dealt with - and Geraldo here has basically taken it up on himself to just say "no" to all of those concerns and shout down any discussion that disagrees with his take. 2600:1004:B215:14B9:DD5C:4A72:5435:8D2A (talk) 19:49, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Read the archives and how the consensus for the current version of the article was formed including the RfC that was held to support it. Nothing has changed since then. Also, to reiterate, this article is about Kris Jenner, not her ex-husband. Geraldo Perez (talk) 20:15, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Kendall and Kylie's articles both refer to her as "Caitlyn" though. We should at least add a note about it. Blubabluba9990 (talk) (contribs) 21:54, 1 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It is appropriately and well covered in the article at the "Marriages, relationships, and family" section and mentioned in the lead section. Geraldo Perez (talk) 22:09, 1 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I meant in the infobox, like on another article (I don't remember which one). Both Kendall and Kylie's articles refer to her as "Caitlyn". Blubabluba9990 (talk) (contribs) 21:48, 5 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
In those articles that is the current name of the person who is their father. In this article in the infobox we have the name of the person Kris was married to for the full duration of their marriage. Geraldo Perez (talk) 23:03, 5 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think this logic holds up. Caitlyn Jenner is still the same person who was married to Kris, regardless of what name she has/had. The guidelines on gender identity say "In articles on works or other activity by a living trans or non-binary person before transition, use their current name as the primary name (in prose, tables, lists, infoboxes, etc.), unless they prefer their former name be used for past events." Unless you have reason to believe she prefers her old name to be used for past events, I think it would be perfectly reasonable to change the name in the infobox. Gravelove (talk) 02:38, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
See notice at top of this page and Talk:Kris Jenner/Archive 1#Bruce Jenner and the RFC where this was discussed. To reiterate this article is about Kris Jenner and it is more important to be considerate of misrepresenting her in an article about her than someone else in this article that is not about that other person. The article as it currently stands strikes the proper balance. Geraldo Perez (talk) 03:34, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A trans woman is being misgendered and deadnamed repeatedly in this article (against Wikipedia guidelines) and in this talk thread. I remember trying to make this edit years ago and there appears to be no substantial or significant reason for it to have not yet been changed. Nfdgoisn (talk) 17:05, 24 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A specific trans-woman, Caitlyn Jenner, has indicated she doesn't mind references to her past name and gender. The RFC referred to above explains all that. Geraldo Perez (talk) 17:23, 24 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sexuality, as noted in Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biography#Sexuality, should not be a major concern: "Care should be taken to avoid placing undue weight on sexuality. A person's sexual orientation or activities should usually not be mentioned in the article lead unless related to the person's notability."
Therefore, we should refer to the style guide's information about gender identity (Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biography#Gender identity). As indicated in this section, Caitlyn's deadname MAY be used as a parenthetical in the article for clarity ONCE. There is no evidence that Caitlyn prefers to use her deadname in reference to the past and Kris refers to Caitlyn as her ex, without deadnaming Caitlyn.
Caitlyn doesn't care either way and doesn't get upset when her old name is used in historical contexts as this article is doing. Again see notice at top of this page and Talk:Kris Jenner/Archive 1#Bruce Jenner and the RFC where this was discussed extensively. The article as it stands now strikes the appropriate balance between correctly representing Kris Jenner's sexuality - she is not a lesbian who was married to a woman - and Caitlyn Jenner's transition after the marriage was over. Geraldo Perez (talk) 23:03, 28 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've searched everywhere and found nothing that says that Caitlyn doesn't mind being deadnamed, yet you repeat this. What are your sources?
Additionally, the talk archive is just you stating that this is the way it must be. Nonnormal87 (talk) 14:21, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's from this notable interview.[1] I did not have any issues finding it on google through the basic search term of caitlyn jenner deadname. The pertinent quote: "“I liked Bruce. He was a good person. He did a lot in his life. Oh, ‘he didn’t even exist’. Yes he did exist! He worked his butt off. He won the [Olympic] Games. He raised amazing kids. He did a lot of very, very good things and it’s not like I just want to throw that away.”" Morbidthoughts (talk) 16:54, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Why does it matter?? This had absolutely nothing to do with her yet you can’t shut up about it?? When Kris was married she was Bruce, why is that so hard for you to comprehend?? 152.97.100.201 (talk) 02:48, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Semi-protected edit request on 23 March 2023[edit]
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Change the name of her former spouse “Bruce Jenner” to “Caitylin Jenner.” Bruce is Caitlyn’s deadname, and it is considered disrespectful to refer to a transgender person by their deadname, she also is more commonly know by her current name 2601:403:100:8B00:5C73:A7C:D01F:30DD (talk) 03:37, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not done Caitlyn Jenner specifically doesn't mind her previous name being used in historical contexts such as appropriately used in this article. See previous discussions in the archives as to why the article is written with names used. Geraldo Perez (talk) 03:48, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sexuality, as noted in Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biography#Sexuality, should not be a major concern: "Care should be taken to avoid placing undue weight on sexuality. A person's sexual orientation or activities should usually not be mentioned in the article lead unless related to the person's notability."
Therefore, we should refer to the style guide's information about gender identity (Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biography#Gender identity). As indicated in this section, Caitlyn's deadname MAY be used as a parenthetical in the article for clarity ONCE. There is no evidence that Caitlyn prefers to use her deadname in reference to the past and Kris refers to Caitlyn as her ex, without deadnaming Caitlyn.
The quote from that is "Care should be taken to avoid placing undue weight on sexuality. A person's sexual orientation or activities should usually not be mentioned in the article lead unless related to the person's notability." It needn't be mentioned in the lead but it shouldn't be implied to be something other than what it is. Geraldo Perez (talk) 17:01, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Kris has 12 grandchildren. Kourtney has Mason Dash Disick, Penelope Scotland Disick, Reign Aston Disick. Kim has North West, Saint West, Chicago West, Psalm West. Khloe has True Thompson and T Thompson. Robert has Dream Kardashian. Kylie has Stormi Webster and Aire Webster. 77.100.172.38 (talk) 22:03, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
She has 13 now. Someone needs to update this. 75.170.110.194 (talk) 16:02, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I changed the info box to represent that she married Caitlyn Jenner as that is her ex-spouse’s name. This is in accordance with the MOS/Gender identity guidelines and is the correct thing to do. Many people have made this change over the years and one user (Geraldo Perez) keeps unilaterally reverting it with no good reason. We need to do the correct thing here. Nfdgoisn (talk) 12:51, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
User:Nfdgoisn, if you really want Geraldo Perez to see this post, you're going to have to link the user name as Geraldo Perez. Then, the next time GP gets on Wikipedia there will be a message saying "Nfdgoisn mentioned you on Talk:Kris Jenner." Georgia guy (talk) 14:19, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Nfdgoisn: You ignored the hidden note in the article and the notice at the top of this talk page and made the change without discussing it first. The article is the way it is for good reason, mostly because the article is about Kris Jenner, not her ex-husband. This issue has been discussed extensively, most recently on this page (start at the top) and at WP:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard/Archive348 § Kris Jenner. Geraldo Perez (talk) 15:57, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I know. I've read the material, changed it years ago, and read all of your replies on this talk page and other areas. I'm still very confused as to how one guy has made it his sworn duty to revert this every single time against MOS/Gender identity guidelines and public consensus. Your main argument seems to be that you don't want people thinking Kris is a lesbian. I don't see how your transphobic argument being predicated on a homophobic one is a good reason to keep the article the way it is. Caitlyn is a woman regardless of your personal feelings on the matter. @Georgia guy thanks for tagging him, I was actually purposefully avoiding doing so.
I think we should seek a third opinion, request for comments, or dispute resolution on the matter. This has gone on for years. Nfdgoisn (talk) 01:59, 2 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Caitlyn was a man called Bruce Jenner for the full duration the marriage to Kris Jenner. Transition happened after the marriage was over. Caitlyn has publicly stated (quoted above) that she does not reject using Bruce Jenner for things she did before transition, is proud of Bruce's accomplishments and doesn't want the name erased. This is Caitlyn's stated desires. The genderid policy contains the statement "unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise". This is covered by that and also all the discussions, including the RfC, about how to handle articles covering Caitlin's notable accomplishments as Bruce before transition. Also in the message at the top of the page "Care must be taken to ensure that a new reader who knows nothing of the subject is not given a misleading impression of Kris' sexuality" was not added by me, I just refer to it as obviously stating Kris was married to a women would do exactly that. This statement: "I don't see how your transphobic argument being predicated on a homophobic one is a good reason to keep the article the way it is" is a "WP:personal attack and out of place in any discussion. The article is the way it is through a lot of work and compromise by many editors. It has been stable for a long time and there is no need to change it. Geraldo Perez (talk) 02:53, 2 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Do you really mean that Caitlyn Jenner was a man?? Not only as opposed to a woman in general, but as opposed to a transgender woman whose body hasn't been fixed with surgery. (In other words, it is not simply saying that "transgender people were cisgender before their bodies were changed with surgery".) Georgia guy (talk) 11:49, 2 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is about a specific person, not generalities, I think the meaning is clear about Caitlyn's own journey and thoughts. From this interview, Caitlyn Jenner's own words speaking for herself. [2] "I liked Bruce. He was a good person. He did a lot in his life. Oh, ‘he didn’t even exist’. Yes he did exist! He worked his butt off. He won the [Olympic] Games. He raised amazing kids. He did a lot of very, very good things and it’s not like I just want to throw that away." Geraldo Perez (talk) 14:45, 2 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, so comments like this (as well as those you have made previously) show me that you lack nuance in understanding, sensitivity, and sympathy for non-cis people. "Caitlyn was a man called Bruce Jenner for the full duration the marriage to Kris Jenner. Transition happened after the marriage was over" is just an outrageous thing to say and a fundamental misunderstanding of how gender identity works. It makes me wonder why you specifically have been actively crusading on this specific argument for years (against popular consensus and others better versed in the subject) despite being poorly equipped with the understanding to adequately handle it. Additionally, the Guardian quote you keep referencing is in the context of people diminishing "Bruce's" accomplishments. Caitlyn does not say explicitly "you can use masculine pronouns and my deadname whenever referring to me." This article regards a popular cultural icon and makes reference to one of the most well known living trans women in the world. To capriciously make a decision like this based on poor reasoning, references, and arguments in combination with a fundamentally flawed understanding of transness and gender identity sets a horrible example and dangerous precedent. Nfdgoisn (talk) 15:21, 4 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I follow this article and resist changing it from the hard fought consensus by many editors to get it where it is now. I only care about Kris Jenner and Caitlyn Jenner in the context of this article. The quote by Caitlyn is a very good explanation and example of how she looks at her life and her specific transition. Note specifically the choice of names and pronouns Caitlyn herself chooses to use to describe her life before her transition that happened after the marriage was over - consider her own wording as an example of what she prefers and finds acceptable when talking about her and her life. This article conforms to that. You pushed this issue 7 years ago. This was resolved 7 years ago after discussion. Nothing has changed since then. There have been a number edits by people unfamiliar with the article history and of the compromises that were reached to make it acceptable and sensitive to primarily Kris, and also Caitlyn - and some have resulted in reasonable refinements to the article. Basically Caitlyn doesn't want Bruce Jenner erased. Other trans people have different needs, Caitlyn is her own person and speaks for herself. This article is not a coat rack for general gender identity and trans issues. Geraldo Perez (talk) 16:05, 4 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not seeing a need for the change. MOS:GENDERID clearly states, unless they prefer their former name be used for past events, which is evident from how Caitlyn Jenner speaks about her past self, as noted above. Crossroads-talk- 01:10, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Was going to support the change until I noticed this clause (which seems like a carve-out specifically for Caitlyn) and read the interview. Unless the guideline is changed or she changes her mind it should read as is. I'm going to try to update the talk header to better explain this special case. —Rutebega (talk) 23:30, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Semi-protected edit request on 13 November 2023[edit]
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Caitlyn Jenner is dead-named numerous times in this article. Fireferret012 (talk) 19:40, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not done Caitlyn Jenner doesn't consider Bruce Jenner a dead name, doesn't want Bruce Jenner erased and is very proud of what Bruce accomplished. See other discussions on the page. Geraldo Perez (talk) 19:50, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Semi-protected edit request on 19 March 2024[edit]
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By her mother's marriage to Harry, she gained a half-brother, Steven "Steve" Shannon.[5]
This should be changed to gained a step-brother rather than half-brother as half-brother implies blood relations sharing one biological parent. 4.36.58.88 (talk) 22:09, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Under the section "Personal Life", there is a sentence that reads, "As of 2023, Jenner has twelve grandchildren". This should be updated to reflect that Ms. Jenner now has 13 grandchildren as of the birth of Kourtney and Travis' baby in 2024. Sconsolato88 (talk) 23:59, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Not done Caitlyn Jenner specifically doesn't mind her previous name being used in historical contexts such as appropriately used in this article. See previous discussions in the archives as to why the article is written with names used. Geraldo Perez (talk) 03:48, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 14:43, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
Done Funnyfarmofdoom (talk to me) 00:18, 20 March 2024 (UTC)