Talk:United Kingdom

The 2022 RFC on how to describe the UK & its components, in the lead

In the lead I've just restored country for the UK description & left no description for England, Scotland, Wales & Northern Ireland, aside from that they comprised the UK. Was there another RFC held since, with a different outcome? Because since then, someone had replaced country with island country (I've since restored the status quo). Also, somebody added countries to describe England, Scotland, Wales & Northern Ireland (I've since deleted to the status quo) in the lead. IMHO, adding that description for England, Scotland, Wales & Northern Ireland, only creates confusion, when we've already decided to call the UK a country. I'm just wondering, is the aforementioned RFC been overturned, concerning the lead of this page? GoodDay (talk) 23:20, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

England, Scotland and Wales are separate countries within the UK and should be listed as such. It seems misleading to exclude this from the lead. Wrehhn (talk) 10:45, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

I disagree. We have E/S/W/NI described as such in their own articles & that suffices. Using the descriptions here, would only be cumbersome & add confusion. GoodDay (talk) 14:14, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Contacting @Giraffedata:, who closed the 2022 RFC-in-question. GoodDay (talk) 23:41, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Wasn't the RfC about the choice between "sovereign country" and just "country"? I don't have a problem with the revert as it's unclear if there is WP:CONSENSUS for the pre-revert wording but I'm unsure that the RfC is relevant. DeCausa (talk) 23:51, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Island country wasn't an option in the RFC & country was the choice, for the UK's description. GoodDay (talk) 23:54, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Not seeing how saying Island five times in the lead helps anyone. Moxy- 00:33, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Indeed. I haven't checked the contribs history, to see who added in island country. GoodDay (talk) 00:59, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

The RfC technically settled only the question of whether the UK should be called a country or a sovereign country, but I think the discussion implied a consensus on whether England, etc. are countries. The background of that RfC was that someone had written the "sovereign country" in order to distinguish the status of the UK from that of England, etc., which were nonsovereign countries. The consensus was that "sovereign country" is redundant, which implies that nonsovereign country is contradictory, i.e. those entities simply aren't countries today. So that bears on GoodDay's second change.

I'm not aware that this issue has been discussed since.

But the RfC doesn't address the issue of whether "island country" is even better than "country". Bryan Henderson (giraffedata) (talk) 23:45, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

The supposition that if the United Kingdom is a plain "country" then England (et al) cannot be is not correct, as the article on what a country is explains. A country can consist of other countries. That's not a reason to avoid careful and clear wording when describing such a situation. Bazza (talk) 23:57, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Last year, "...comprises England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland" was adopted, after country was chosen to describe the United Kingdom. I presume, this was to avoid arguments. GoodDay (talk) 03:20, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 December 2023

Change "The Proms is a classical music festival held at the Royal Albert Hall which regularly plays music by Edward Elgar and Henry Wood." to "The Proms is a classical music festival, most closely associated with Henry Wood and held at the Royal Albert Hall, which regularly plays music by Edward Elgar and other British composers". (Henry Wood was a conductor, not a composer.) Cjholula (talk) 20:20, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

 Done WaggersTALK 14:25, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 December 2023

UK 2021 ethnicity White: 81.7% Asian: 9.3% Black: 4.2% Mixed: 2.9% Other: 2.1%

}} 2A00:23C5:EF47:2701:1140:F799:657D:9E94 (talk) 12:53, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

What's the source for this? Cordless Larry (talk) 09:48, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Flag proportions

I think that the flag proportions are incorrect on the Wikipedia page.

The flag proportions are currently 1:2 however those are specifically the proportions on sea and most people will be viewing Wikipedia on land where the proportions are 3:5. I suggest changing the flag in the infobox to the 3:5 land flag or better yet putting both in the infobox and specifying which one is for land and which one is for sea.

Sources: [1]https://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/resources/union-flag-approved-designs, [2]https://www.flaginstitute.org/wp/uk-flags/union-flag-specification/ and [3]https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200708/cmbills/065/08065.i-i.html (this one is only a bill and only specifies the land proportions)

TL;DR: Add the land version of the flag to the infobox.

Arcchie (talk) 15:25, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Fix map

The UK has three territories in the Mediterranean: Gibraltar, Akrotiri and Dhekelia in Cyprus, and the Sovereign Base Areas on Cyprus, that aren't shown in the "overseas territories and economic exclusive zones" map. Hsn.frrr (talk) 17:14, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

(Infobox map) This is likely because Gibraltar and the SBAs lack EEZs. I am not sure they would show up at the relevant scale, although curiously the entire island of Cyprus has never been present on that map. CMD (talk) 02:35, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 January 2024

Replace the Brexit protest image under 21st century with this image of Queen Elizabeth II's Funeral and Procession, considering it's the UK's biggest moment in the 21st century (so far) and likely will be for a number of decades. 2A00:23C7:69B1:501:F920:6B33:668A:8436 (talk) 11:52, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{blaze__wolf} 13:10, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. Anyone who agrees can reply back here. 2A00:23C7:69B1:501:F920:6B33:668A:8436 (talk) 15:19, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Article is about the whole UK, not just England and Wales

Tweedle, regarding this edit, can I remind you about Talk:United Kingdom/Archive 37#The UK isn't just England and Wales? Cordless Larry (talk) 20:01, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

21st century image

Can we replace the Brexit protest image under 21st century with this image of Queen Elizabeth II's Funeral and Procession, considering it's the UK's biggest moment in the 21st century (so far) and likely will be for a number of decades. Open to hear your views. 2A00:23C7:69B1:501:F920:6B33:668A:8436 (talk) 23:23, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

No. The influence of Brexit on the country is far wider than the smooth and practised transition from one monarch to the next. Bazza (talk) 10:07, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 January 2024

Something that has changed about the anthem it used to be "God Save the King", but now it's "God Save the Queen". 50.86.215.230 (talk) 19:51, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Not done - The anthem is still "God Save the King". GoodDay (talk) 21:00, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 February 2024

Lion1010NT (talk) 22:43, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

I need to edit a mistake on the 3rd section also add a section on medieval times.

 Not done: this is not the right page to request additional user rights. You may reopen this request with the specific changes to be made and someone may add them for you. PianoDan (talk) 22:57, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Conversion in total area

Hello, I am Cleter, and I would like to begin by stating that the conversion of the land area in the UK reads as follows:

The total area of the United Kingdom is 94,060 square miles (243,610 km²), with an estimated 2022 population of nearly 67 million people.

I suggest the following change in accordance to Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#Unit_choice_and_order which includes:

• In non-scientific articles with strong ties to the United Kingdom, the primary units for most quantities are metric or other internationally used units, except that:
  • UK engineering-related articles, including those on bridges and tunnels, generally use the system of units in which the subject project was drawn up (but road distances are given in imperial units, with a metric conversion – see next bullet);
  • the primary units for distance/​length, speed and fuel consumption are miles, miles per hour, and miles per imperial gallon (except for short distances or lengths, where miles are too large for practical use);
  • the primary units for personal height and weight are feet​/inches and stones/​pounds;
  • imperial pints are used for quantities of draught beer/​cider and bottled milk;

As you can see, none of these circumstances are applicable to the article. Therefore, I request that the sentence in green be readjusted to this (including the 2 sources):

The total area of the United Kingdom is 243,610 square kilometres (94,060 mi²), with an estimated 2022 population of nearly 67 million people. 🅲🅻🅴🆃🅴🆁 (a word) 03:58, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Given area is a function of distances, I don't think the use of square miles is out of line with that MoS even if not specifically mentioned. CMD (talk) 10:19, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

One difficulty is that all ONS statistics (along with the OS, the only genuine authority on area measurements in the UK) are metric, both for Standard Area Measurements and density. You're absolutely right of course—the MoS means that the figure should be imperial first. But nonetheless, it always feels to me a little dishonest that Wikipedia presents British area measurements as though the statistic is imperial and that Wiki is converting it to metric. When in fact the opposite is true. Dgp4004 (talk) 12:53, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

@Cleter: I agree with @Chipmunkdavis. I've lived in the country for some time. We're used to square metres and hectares for small measurements, but larger areas are mostly spoken of in square miles (or Isle of Wights or Wales). I suspect this is because road distances, which are a practical yardstick for envisaging a large area, are stated in miles. Bazza (talk) 10:53, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

@117PXL

@117PXL: You seem to misunderstand "bias" and "neutrality" as it operates on Wikipedia. Please read WP:BRD, self-revert and discuss your edit here. DeCausa (talk) 12:19, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

@117PXL: when you come off your block, put forward your arguments here. If you revert again without getting consensus support first you will just get a longer block. DeCausa (talk) 23:43, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Apologies, I didn’t realise I would need a consensus for removing the image because I thought the bias was obvious. I will explain my thoughts…

In Northern Ireland the pro Irish community speak Irish (Ulster-Irish) and the pro British community speak Ulster-Scots, as well as speaking English.

There are signs in Northern Ireland that are translated into both languages, here are some examples I found:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Multilingual_sign_Department_Culture_Leisure_Arts_Northern_Ireland.jpg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Derry_Guildhall_Nameplate_2013_09_17.jpg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Looking_for_the_%22Cludgies%22%5E_-_geograph.org.uk_-_637820.jpg

As you can see the ‘Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure’ is translated into both languages.

These examples show no bias, but do highlight division, so I thought it would be wiser to remove the image, as leaving it, could annoy the pro British community.

All thoughts are welcome. 117PXL (talk) 21:26, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. First of all whether it would "annoy the pro British community" is irrelevant and not a factor that would or could be taken into account on Wikipedia. See WP:NOTCENSORED. I think that sort of thinking has led you to misunderstand neutrality here. It's not about "balancing" conflicts - see WP:FALSEBALANCE which is not exactly on point here but is related. I don't see any "bias" in the pic you wanted to remove for a number of reasons. Ultimately it's just an instance of a multilingual sign in the UK. That's all. Having said that, the pics that you have linked to are an even better illustrations. I wouldn't have a problem with any of those. The other problem with your edit was cluttering of the Topography section with 4 pics. It's not 'bias' just to have pics from 2 countries - unnecessary clutter is a much more significant issue. DeCausa (talk) 22:34, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

@117PXL: I see you went ahead with this edit, which constitutes another revert. The above was just my opinion - I wouldn't say that is a new consensus particularly as another editor reverted you too. You've just come off a block for edit-warring the removal of the pic. Whilst the edit is ok with me, you run the risk of being re-blocked. DeCausa (talk) 20:03, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

The text on File:Derry Guildhall Nameplate 2013 09 17.jpg is much harder to see in thumbnail view than that on File:Bilingual welcome sign Newry.jpg, so I disagree with 117PXL's replacement of the latter with the former (which I see has now been reverted). Cordless Larry (talk) 20:35, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Sorry didn't see the latest comment. But I don't think we should have the previous photo on there. 117PXL (talk) 21:14, 12 February 2024 (UTC)