User talk:RedSpruce

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Joe Mac Pop

Karl, Just to elaborate on my comment in this thread: Talk:Joseph_McCarthy#Popular_culture. I don't lean strongly either toward keeping or deleting the section and am happy to defer to your preference. My sense is simply that, with the section having become an issue, it's in the interest of the article's short- and long-term stability to have a well-reasoned discussion and conclusion on the Talk page. Best, Dan.—DCGeist 04:02, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

J. Edgar Hoover

What are you afraid of in terms of eliminating reference to the KGB and Hoover's alleged homosexuality? Not making him look like a buffoon. Perhaps you have no understanding of the KGB and its tactics. For example, the recent admissions from the KGB archives show that it was behind the myth that Pius XII did nothing to help the Jews during the Holocaust, an assertion that is baseless in fact.--146.145.70.250 21:43, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with the KGB's tactics. Hoover was a man who never married, who was never known to date women, who spent almost all of his free time, as well as much of his time at work, with a male friend. Under those circumstances, any mention of anyone "starting the rumor" that he was a homosexual is simply silly. If the KGB did expend any effort in spreading this rumor, doing so was act of utter irrelevance. RedSpruce 01:31, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

McCarthy

Karl, I like your changes to the lead. You summarize 50-54 much better than I would have been able to do it.

On a separate note, I'm increasingly uncomfortable with Second Red Scare redirecting to "McCarthyism." I think I initially raised this point at Talk there last month, and I know you disagree, but hear me out for a moment. While I realize that there is much common usage of the term McCarthyism to indicate the period that encompasses the 2RS, you have also acknowledged that the 2RS includes some years in the 1940s that predate McCarthy's fame or involvement with anti-Communism, specifically and importantly the Truman State Department loyalty oath/purge thing, as well as HUAC, which as we both know wasn't related to McCarthy the man. None of that is new or controversial in general or between us. Where I'm going with it is that I think making the whole era synonymous with McCarthyism (especially given the modern connotation of the term) amounts to attributing too much prominence to the man himself, sort of an ad hominem emphasis on 15 years of American history. I'm not suggesting McCarthy wasn't "the most famous public face of anti-Communist sentiment" or however we're describing him. I'm not suggesting the term isn't generally used (a google search shows that it is). However, a google search also shows "Second Red Scare" is commonly used and to me it seems like there's a distinction between it and McCarthyism, both in the period of time (ie the parts predating 1950) and in the style and character of it (like Truman's dismissals weren't all unsubstantiated attacks on people's patriotism in the style of McCarthy, they actually involved firing Communist sympathizers/agents, etc.).

What I hope you will consider is making the main subject article "Second Red Scare," and have "McCarthyism" redirect to it, rather than the way we have it now. McCarthyism would still be the major focus of the article and would represent the bulk of it, but the 2RS article could give a bit more of the pre- and post-McCarthy/McCarthyism context without hanging it all on Joe McCarthy. Let me know what you think. Kaisershatner 15:43, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

You're entirely correct that the beginning of the second red scare predates McCarthy. Likewise did the gradual end of the second red scare postdate the time when McCarthy had any notable voice in America. However, the fact is that all of the scholars on the subject that I've read use the terms "second red scare" and "McCarthyism" synonymously. And I've read enough of the prominent works in the field so that I'm confident that if there are any scholars out there who make a distinction between the two, theirs is a minority view. (I'd be very interested in reading the views of any such scholars, if you know of any.) Furthermore, "McCarthyism" is the far more commonly used term. Google book search shows 101 books with "McCarthyism" in the title, 91 with "red scare" in the title (many of which are about the first red scare), and none with "second red scare" in the title. All "histories of McCarthyism" make it very clear that the period of history they're talking about by no means coincides with the career of Joseph McCarthy. It just so happens that his name has been used to name that period of history. And that holds true for the WP article on McCarthyism too; to quote the first sentence of the first section after the introduction: "The historical period known as McCarthyism began well before Joseph McCarthy's own involvement in it." RedSpruce 18:40, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

You might be interested in this, if you haven't read it; it seems to articulate my point in a much more thorough way than I can.[1] Kaisershatner 14:20, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I've read the book. About the only point it articulates is that although McCarthy was a horrible person, that's okay because he was against Communists. It's a point that might have some validity if McCarthy had ever caught any Communists. Roughly the same holds true for McCarthyism. It would make sense to have more discussion of the actual Soviet espionage and subversion activities in the U.S. in the McCarthyism article if there was more of a connection between the two stories. That is, if something that's identified as "McCarthyism" had ever resulted in any notable illegal Soviet or Communist activities being exposed. It didn't, so the only grounds for discussing actual Soviet espionage is in mentioning that such activity helped to provide the paranoid background that gave rise to McCarthyism. RedSpruce 14:41, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm confused. One the one hand, above you are taking the position that "It would make sense to have more discussion of the actual Soviet espionage and subversion activities in the U.S. in the McCarthyism article if...something that's identified as "McCarthyism" had ever resulted in any notable illegal Soviet or Communist activities being exposed," and on the other hand, that "that the beginning of the second red scare predates McCarthy. Likewise did the gradual end of the second red scare postdate the time when McCarthy had any notable voice in America." Since the purge of the State Department by Truman and the exposure of actual Soviet agents within the US should, in your view, fall under the McCarthyism article, shouldn't it make sense to discuss those things there in detail? Kaisershatner 14:34, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

The Truman loyalty-security program is discussed in the McCarthy article. For the most part, the "exposure of actual Soviet agents" that occurred during this era did not occur because of anything that is identified as McCarthyism; it happened because of the revelations of defectors, and later because of Venona. One partial exception to this is the Hiss case, in that Hiss might not have been apprehended and convicted if not for HUAC. Because in this case there is an overlap between the story of McCarthyism and the story of actual Soviet espionage efforts, the Hiss case is discussed in the McCarthyism article. Apart from cases like this there is no real overlap in the two stories.

In short, the reason why cases of Soviet espionage should not be discussed in detail in the McCarthyism article is because it's an article about McCarthyism. I assume there's another article about Soviet espionage in the United States; if it's well written, it doesn't spend much space talking about McCarthyism. RedSpruce 15:55, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

The Truman program is discussed, I am not asserting otherwise. However, I keep inserting, and you keep removing, mention in the introduction about actual Communist espionage during this period. About two months ago you wrote to me that "On the one hand, since McCarthyism is essentially defined as "baseless accusations and character assassination," it makes sense for the article to focus on that topic. On the other hand, I agree that the article should pay more attention the actual communist espionage and and infiltration that was discovered during the period, since those revelations, few though they were, formed part of the driving force behind McCarthyism." Do you feel the article has paid more attention to actual communist espionage since we discussed this in February? And are we using "McCarthyism" to mean "baseless anti-Communist accusations and fear" or "a period from the 1940s-1960s marked both by anti-Communist accusations and fears as well as by attempted Soviet infiltration of the US Government and controlling of the CPUSA?" Are the actual Communist activities relevant enough to the period to warrant mention in the introduction, or was it more simply just 20 years of demagoguery and fearmongering? Or something in the middle? Kaisershatner 17:21, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

The coverage of actual Soviet espionage has been increased (by one brief paragraph) since the exchange you mention. It is now more than sufficient, for the reasons I have stated. The correct definition of McCarthyism is the first one you mention. The second one you mention is not correct. The word does not refer simply to a period of history, nor to all Communism-related things that happened during a period of history. As the article states, it is a "term describing a period of intense anti-Communist suspicion in the United States that lasted roughly from the late 1940s to the late 1950s." If you believe that is incorrect, you merely have to demonstrate that a consensus of scholars holds a contradictory opinion. Simply repeating your opinion at me and asking me to repeat mine doesn't seem very productive to me. RedSpruce 18:01, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Re: 3RR noticeboard

Few quick points. 1) The template is so it's much easier for the admins to read that they're of the same reverts. 2) If someone's edit warring, page protection, requests for comments, and administrators' intervention against vandalism may apply. - Penwhale | Blast the Penwhale 08:01, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

McCarthyism comments

Sometimes my reviews do bring up a lot of points, but if you look at some of those, they are just suggestions on how to improve the visual appearance of the article (1 & 2), and many are just simple mistakes that can be fixed (4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 14, 15, 16, & 17). I'm glad that you already fixed some of them. I know that I sometimes leave a lot of things to be fixed but I always leave the article on hold for seven days and in extreme cases longer than that. I don't like to fail articles (unless they deserve it), and I really think this article should be passed. Thanks for letting me know and good job fixing some of those suggestions. --Nehrams2020 17:28, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Joseph McCarthy

I would like to request mediation. I think you are continually removing sourced and neutral entries that improve this article. You assert that I am adding information that in your opinion is over-emphasized, trivial, and/or irrelevant. Mediation requires the agreement of both parties; thus my question- will you accept mediation? Kaisershatner 17:36, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Sure, go ahead. RedSpruce 00:46, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Karl, my apologies for running off in different directions. Before we move to mediation, which from what I am reading may take a very long time to resolve, I am going to invite a wider group of involved editors to comment. If they tell me I am way off base, for example, we might avoid a protracted argument that could be more simply resolved. Kaisershatner 17:18, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Louis Budenz

Thank you for your work on Mr Budenz' article. I am a relative of him and it is really interesting to find out what one of my distant uncles was up to.

Big Mac

If you'd consider taking another bite at it, write me at dancharlesgeist@hotmail.com —DCGeist 21:05, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks /Tet

Thank you for the kind remarks you left on my talk page, I was pleased to read them. I appreciate your helpful, polite criticism at Tet. I hope it becomes a good article. KAM 00:21, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

J Edgar Hoover

Hi: Please explain why you reverted the edits that I made to J. Edgar Hoover. BrianGV (Talk) 19:40, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Because the dif made it look like the only difference was a white space addition, and your later edit appeared to remove an important clarification. I see now that both interpretations were mistaken, but the article gets a lot of garbage edits, so I rv'd the whole batch. In other words, stuff happens.  :-) RedSpruce 20:39, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I see, thought it could be something like that, I'll change back those few others. Thanks for reply.

BrianGV (Talk) 23:13, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Peace offering

Please enter the discussion on Talk:Alger Hiss to resolve the conflict. 65.185.190.240 23:37, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Gunpowder

Hey,

Some meatwagon in gunpowder has accused you of fabricating the quote from Partington. Can you actually provide the page number, and if the text supports it, help provide a more balanced point of view?

Much Thanks, Ocanter 20:27, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Proposed Cold War History project

I notice that you had expressed interest in the proposal for a project relating to the Cold War at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Cold War history. The proposal has generated sufficient interest to be considered viable, but the original proposer has been inactive for some time, so no one has been following it. I was wondering whether you, as one of the interested parties, would be interested in establishing the project as an independent entity or possibly as a task force of Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history. Please indicate your opinion in the comments section here. Thank you for your interest in the subject, and for your timely response. John Carter 21:21, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Re: William Remington

Red, please put down the rhetorical weapon. If you will take a few deep breaths, then take a dispassionate look at your remarks on the William Remington talk page, I think you'll find that you have been acting as if you assume your judgment is superior to anyone else's. Only assertions you disagree with have to be justified; those you agree with are gospel. Yes, I do mean "gospel." You are reminding me of a neo-Confederate I tangled with over another article. If the comparison is objectionable to you, well, it should be. I assume that you are better than that, and that this behavior is not typical of you. So cut it out. -- Rob C (Alarob) 18:52, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Rob, I object to your tone here and even more so in this edit. I have raised perfectly valid points that Adrian has not addressed in a valid way. If you take a dispassionate look at the discussion, (after taking as many breaths as you like), I think you'll agree. I was asking of Adrian, and now I ask of you: If I am wrong, show me where I am wrong using a rational argument. People have shown me where I'm wrong many times before on WP, and when they've done so I have accepted it. But simply telling me I'm wrong is childish and I don't accept it. RedSpruce 18:59, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Listen, Red, I am sympathetic to your position and, from what I've seen, to Schrecker's reading of the McCarthy era and the context of Remington's murder. I am not trying to make you change your mind about anything. It is your behavior toward other editors that I am attempting to call your attention to here. You have been condescending. (If someone else belittled you first, that does not justify it, especially when you keep it up.) You have criticized Adrian M.H.'s logic, implied that he is too ignorant to contribute meaningfully to the article, and have pretended to know what his politics are and that they are guiding his editorial judgment. As for Jtpaladin, you have let his fringe views get to you, and you are personalizing the discussion over this article into a moral struggle. It is not.

I agree that Jtp has said some unpardonable things, and Adrian seemed a mite touchy. You could day each of them has poured a little oil on the flames. But it's not your job to see that they behave well. Nor is it my job to police your behavior. I'm just giving you information and awaiting your response, which I hope will be courteous. -- Rob C (Alarob) 19:24, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the much improved tone, Rob. I think there are 3 issues here:

1: I have challenged Adrian to be more rigorous in presenting his opinions--to use actual logic and evidence rather than tossing out meaningless "I like vanilla because it tastes better" opinions. I think I've actually had some success on this count, based on the progression of Adrian's recent responses.

2: I have treated people with some degree of the patronizing and insulting tone that they have used with me. This is less than ideal, obviously.

3:I have pursued an issue even after a compromise that I accepted was reached. This was (IMO) a possibly-valid thing to do in terms of item #1--I got Adrian to apply some actual thought to his comments, and a worthless thing to do in terms of item #2--I was enjoying the opportunity to continue to needle some people who had behaved badly.

So yes: bottom line, there's a lot of room for improvement in my behavior, and I'll continue to work on that. I'd say that puts me right on a level with, well, everyone. Including you.

RedSpruce 19:42, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I accept blame for, as you say, less than ideal behavior myself. If the sniping stops, on all sides, then that's all I ask. If either Adrian or Jtp takes another potshot, I would be grateful if you would fight fire with water, not fire. WP:AGF and so on.

As a general rule, I've found that telling people they are not thinking up to my standard is not normally very productive. I admit to having done it, but I am trying to quit. -- Rob C (Alarob) 19:56, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I completely agree with that rule, so I've just reread the entire discussion to see where I said something that could be interpreted as telling someone "they are not thinking up to my standard." I can't find any such statement. I said at several points that people weren't presenting valid arguments, but I never, for example, called anyone particularly obtuse. RedSpruce 15:50, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

J Edgar Hoover

Why shouldn't there be a lain in state in caital rotunda box on J Edgar Hoover's page? He is listed in the succesion box on other pages. If it is true why shouldn't it be there and if it is not true then the other pages should be corrected. Azrich 07:47, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

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Amazed by your revertion

Hi! Sorry for abusing you, but I'm new to wikipedia, and wish to contribute something that I know well. I run several adult projects and that's the stuff I'm familiar with, so after a little analysis of porn-dedicated pages, like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography , but it's too far away from my job, so I decided to try to contirbute to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_pornography . After I checked other pages I've found there's no section about e.g. Link Lists, many still can't differ CJ from TGP(that's actually important), and is there any other wikipedia aims except bringing information to internet users? It's quite strange for me, and my wish to help YOUR (it sad but I don't feel this a liitle bit mine) project has become less. I hope you will check your revertion again, and give it one more chance, or, at least answer us what is wrong with article, and tell us what should be changed to be accepted. Thanks in advance!

Hiss

Here is Allen Weinstein in his own words

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/983 I would also like to clarify another, unrelated brief episode described in Perjury. One of those who identified Alger Hiss as a Soviet agent, claiming that he had heard of Hiss's involvement during World War II, was Oleg Gordievsky, a key Soviet intelligence official who defected in Great Britain during the 1980s. In a 1990 book on the KGB—written with the British academic Christopher Andrew—Gordievsky described a lecture to a KGB audience by Akhmerov, who mentioned Hiss among Soviet agents in the United States.

There is nothing apparent about it even in Allen Weinstein view.

Of course Oleg Gordievsky thinks that Hiss was a spy goes without saying.

I ask that you let me remove that word Reargunner 14:04, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Alger Hiss 3RR

Thanks for the apology. Would you be OK with me closing the 3RR report, and I'll put the article on my watchlist? ELIMINATORJR ^TALK 17:39, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely; thanks again. RedSpruce 17:55, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Although... thanks to Bdell555's canvassing [2] [3] [4], there is now another editor added to the mix. Sigh. RedSpruce 18:02, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

OK - I have closed the 3RR, and suggested dispute resolution. If this flares up again, don't hesitate to take it to 3RR (if applicable), or WP:RFPP. ELIMINATORJR ^TALK 18:21, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Hiss/Gordievsky english

I'm not trying to make an ideological point with my edit. The formulation you used is, in fact, a poor use of the english language so I will not be reverting but if you'd explain what you're trying to get across, I'd be willing to work with you to make your point in a way that sounds better. This is separate from the question of whether I actually agree with your point as, frankly, I don't quite get it yet and thus am reserving judgment until I do.

To be clear, this is the text under discussion

---

your original

In 1985, Oleg Gordievsky, a high ranking KGB agent, defected to the West. In his 1990 book Gordievsky reported attending a lecture before a KGB audience in which Iskhak Abdulovich Akhmerov identified Hiss, apparently as one of the Soviet Union's U.S. agents during World War II.

My edit

In 1985, Oleg Gordievsky, a high ranking KGB agent, defected to the West. In his 1990 book Gordievsky reported attending a lecture before a KGB audience in which Iskhak Abdulovich Akhmerov identified Hiss as one of the Soviet Union's U.S. agents during World War II

---

I took out your addition of apparently and someone elses nonsensical comma. At the very least, don't put back the comma. TMLutas 19:38, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Really, it isn't bad English. I don't know all the technical terms for parsing the sentence, but it probably wouldn't help you if I did. Akhmerov identified Hiss. He was apparently identifying him as one of the Soviet Union's U.S. agents, but that isn't certain. The time period when he might have been an agent was World War II. In other words, Akhmerov identified Hiss, apparently as one of the Soviet Union's U.S. agents during World War II. Can you think of a better way to word that? Would it be clearer if "during World War II" was left out? RedSpruce 19:51, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

"In other words" was what I was looking for. This might work better:

In his 1990 book Gordievsky reported attending a lecture before a KGB audience in which Iskhak Abdulovich Akhmerov identified Hiss as one of the Soviet Union's U.S. agents, apparently during World War II

Would that be acceptable to you? TMLutas 20:00, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

No, because that's not what it means. :-) "Apparently" applies to whether or not Akhmerov identified Hiss as an agent. (As you can see in the footnote, all that is known from Gordievsky's book is that Akhmerov mentioned Hiss's name in a lecture.) So maybe what I suggested would work: "In his 1990 book Gordievsky reported attending a lecture before a KGB audience in which Iskhak Abdulovich Akhmerov identified Hiss, apparently as one of the Soviet Union's U.S. agents." The "during World War II" is superfluous. RedSpruce 20:07, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

As an aside, why can't Allen Weinstein's phrasing stand, Redspruce? Why should the form of expression employed by a professional scholar be adjusted by an amateur like one of us? Why hasn't another scholar challenged Weinstein's choice of words? You concede that "Akhmerov identified Hiss" and Weinstein also states that Gordievsky claimed he had heard of Hiss' involvement during WW II. You seem to wish to reject BOTH possible interpretations of Weinstein's remark that you've offered elsewhere.Bdell555 20:29, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Because Weinstein doesn't have to be, and doesn't try to be, neutral. He's free to reinterpret the words that Gordievsky wrote in such a way as to support his agenda. Since the article actually quotes Gordievsky words, applying such a loose interpretation of them will only invite further edit disputes. RedSpruce 20:37, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Would you be interested in a list of scholars from across the political spectrum who do not agree with your contention that Weinstein misconstrues or misleads? Where is the list of scholars who say that YOU are "neutral" and have no "agenda"? You continue to refuse to acknowledge the fact that Gordievsky claimed he had heard about Hiss' involvement during World War II. He never "apparently" claimed that. How about having ALL of Gordievsky's phrases concerning Hiss appear in the article without elaboration, and that means more than just a "5 word footnote". Why not try your own argument here on for size and show us a Gordievsky (or Akhmerov) quote containing the word "apparently", the word you want in the article?Bdell555 21:02, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

The place to discuss this is in the Hiss Talk page. RedSpruce 10:03, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

credit where it's due

re your relatively calm and reasonable tone of late. A refreshing change from the "get bent" days.Bdell555 22:44, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. You should try it yourself; it's easier than you might think! RedSpruce 10:00, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Robert Olen Butler

The deletion I made to Butler re his first marriage was not a deletion but merely a moving of information, which you must not have noticed; his marriage information should be in a separate section for easier readability and information organization. I have placed the information back where it should be, plus the citations.204.126.250.193 14:51, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Oops, sorry about that. RedSpruce 17:36, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Hiss Citation needed on UN vote totals for USSR?

I can only hope I'm misinterpreting this. Are you seriously arguing that the USSR might not have had 3 votes and requiring a cite for it? That makes no sense. TMLutas 19:02, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Both sides should have citations. I thought the "pro-Hiss" side already did. BTW, I can't figure out what the current version means. RedSpruce 19:38, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Robert Olen Butler

Mr Butler is addressing this subject himself. Therefore it is worthy of coverage. If you disagree, then set up a voting procedure on the Talk page rather than continually reverting. Many thanks.Kitchawan 16:37, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I think you might be in near-violation of that as well, if I am reading Wiki information correctly re three-reverts. You are doing precisely the same thing.Kitchawan 17:08, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

I know; I was just letting you know about the 3RR rule so that you wouldn't mistakenly do another revert if and when someone puts the article back into a sane state. RedSpruce 17:10, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Ehrman

You wrote:

Hi -- Please ignore my edit summary comment in this edit. When I looked at the dif, I misunderstood the nature of your edit and where you were putting it. I still don't think the article you added should be included in the list of references for footnote #2, however. The author isn't very notable, and the article is very strongly opinionated, stating some things that are a bit over the top (like saying that Navasky is "now virtually alone in his rejection of the case against Hiss." Also, I think there are enough references in the footnote. Note also that the article you linked is included in the "External links" section. RedSpruce 11:17, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I am glad to see your explanation (that you misunderstood the nature of the edit), but I don't understand why you still think this citation should have been deleted. To take your points one at a time:

1.) "John Ehrman serves in the Directorate of Intelligence." (https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/csi-studies/studies/vol51no2/index.html) He is "a foreign affairs analyst for the federal government." (http://www.tufts.edu/alumni/magazine/spring2005/departments/bookshelf.html) He was a "George Washington University historian." (http://www.foreignaffairs.org/19950701fareviewessay5058/john-b-judis/trotskyism-to-anachronism-the-neoconservative-revolution.html) He holds a doctorate in History. (http://www.gwu.edu/~magazine/archive/2005_spr_sum/docs/alumni_newsmakers/dept_alumni_bookshelf.html) His marriage made the society page. (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=950DE1D71F3CF93BA35752C0A96F948260)

Ehrman seems to me at least as notable as the others listed in this footnote (not to mention the other citations in this and similar articles), most of whom are merely journalists.

2.) Opinion is precisely what the footnote calls for: substantiation of the factual claim that some notable sources hold the opinion that Ehrman here expresses. The article (from "the journal of the American intelligence professional") is no more opinionated than the others cited (Salon?), which make the same point. Readers can always follow the link and decide for themselves whether they find the argument persuasive.

3.) The number of sources cited in support of the claim of consensus is material. Arbitrarily curtailing the number of sources available to readers exerts a bias on their judgment of the claim, violating NPOV. If there are too many sources cited in the footnote, it would make more sense to delete one of the journalist pieces, than a journal article.

4.) If the source can be linked only either as a footnote or external link, it should be deleted from the external links (where its relevance is generic), rather than the footnote, where it is specific.

ThanksMark LaRochelle 15:46, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

My response is on Talk:Alger Hiss RedSpruce 18:52, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

inadvertent blanking

I think you accidentally blanked the {{ChicagoWikiProject}} template in this edit. Let me know if you did so intentionally. We tag articles based on the categories they include. --TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 21:50, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

No, it wasn't inadvertent. There's no mention of Butler ever living, working or studying in Chicago; indeed no mention of Chicago at all. RedSpruce 14:55, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Robert Olen Butler redux

Whoops! Sorry about stomping on your footnote improvements in the other sections. I just wasn't paying close enough attention. My bad. On the other subject, I have little hope that Kitchawan is going to let this "Personal life" issue go.--ShelfSkewed Talk 18:23, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

No problem. As for Kitchawan, maybe he'll give it up -- shoveling manure into a big pile (as he's doing) has got to be a less-rewarding task in the long run than flushing manure down the drain (as we're doing). :) RedSpruce 18:33, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

3RR

RedSpruce, Thanks for the head's up. I think we're both at our limit. This is obviously a disagreement solely between you and me, so perhaps we should open the discussion to other Wiki editors to get their opinion of the contentious section and its appropriate length. As you have probably seen, I have been beefing up considerably the other sections to achieve a more balanced text.Kitchawan 20:24, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Jtpaladin's violation of the 3RR on Aug 20

Hello, RedSpruce. I noticed that you and Jtpaladin are involved in an editing dispute on Joseph McCarthy. I've been following along and wanted to let you know that Jtpaladin may have knowingly violated the Three Revert Rule, and on the last revert, made a misleading edit summary to cover up his violation of the 3RR. The diffs, for reference, are 1 2 3 4 5. Please remember to discuss changes on the talk page- it does appear, however, that there are at least two editors working against you to skew the article's portrayal of McCarthy, or "whitewash" it. If the dispute continues you may consider an official avenue of dispute resolution- the link there has information helpful to reconciling two disagreeing editors. --ForbiddenWord 12:30, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

RedSpruce, I know you're smarter than other editors because even though we may disagree politically, at least you can articulate your position. FW is wrong in this case as he has been in others. He has been harrassing me on my own Talk page even when I asked him to stop. Yes, I know I could report him for such actions but I'm not petty enough to do so. He's also violating WP:AGF and WP:NPA. I guess FW didn't bother to read the McCarthy Discussion page where you and I discussed this matter and agreed to making changes which included your suggestions. The article has been re-written in that fashion working in conjunction with you. I actually have more to add to that article but will refrain from further changes unless you and I have an opportunity to discuss additional issues. Please let me know your thoughts if you wish to work on that section any further. Thank you. Jtpaladin 16:11, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I am not incorrect- you have violated the 3RR and attempted to make it look like you have not. Additionally, I have not made any personal attacks, or harrassed you on your talk page- asking a user to cease making personal attacks on his or her user talk page is not harassment- I would be happy to see you involve an administrator if you believe I have somehow wronged you in my interpretation of Wikipedia policy. In the above message I was alerting Redspruce to your violation of an important policy in place to prevent edit wars- and an edit war does appear to be what you are intent on undertaking. If RedSpruce has no strong feelings on the subject, he may report it- I will not be, because I do not want to take part in an edit war. Edit warring is extremely harmful to the Wikipedia project, and I cannot stand by and see it happen in the name of any POV. If you have any further comments please reply at your or my talk page and I will address them there rather than cluttering up Redspruce's page further. --ForbiddenWord 16:23, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Removing merge proposal

The fact that you choose to ignore the lengthy rationale for merging the list section from Film noir to List of film noir is not the same as "no rationale given." --Dystopos 14:42, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I apologize. I looked at the wrong dif in the discussion history, and missed the rationale that you gave. It's not exactly "lengthy" -- it consists of a couple of sentences buried in amongst thousands of words of you repeating your "rules is rules" non-argument about removing the list from the Film Noir article, but it's a genuine rationale nonetheless. RedSpruce 14:50, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Your note

OK. A personal attack was the furthest thing from my mind, but I accept your rebuke. I am sorry that I offended you. -- Rob C. alias Alarob 17:28, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

"the furthest thing from my mind" -- Yeah, the comment was just dripping with not-an-insult. :-) RedSpruce 18:43, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Have it your way. -- Rob C. alias Alarob 22:17, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Stop

You have forum shopped all over Wikipedia and absolutely nobody has agreed with you that the blog should be included. Stop readding it to articles. IrishGuy ^talk 00:19, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Your reading of the progress of this discussion is incorrect. I will stop as soon as I am given a reason to stop. If you want to discuss this further, I am perfectly willing to do so. RedSpruce 01:26, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually, if you continue spamming in flagrant violation of policy (which has been explained to you by numerous editors) you risk being blocked. IrishGuy ^talk 01:36, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

It's only you who pretend to have this incorrect evaluation of these edits. I welcome you invite any other admin to examine the situation and block me if he/she sees fit. If you block me, I will pursue that issue until it is corrected. RedSpruce 01:43, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Writers of the Future

Hi there. I read the article, and found that it does describe the workshop that happens for winners. I re-added the template, but I'm open to being convinced otherwise. --GoodDamon 18:37, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Good point. I'm not sure that the categorization is entirely appropriate, given that the article is about the contest, of which the workshop is only one of the "prizes", but I'm not convinced enough to argue the point. RedSpruce 18:44, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Table of Contents on McCarthy Page

Dear Red Spruce, I understand your reason for removing the "Summary" heading on McCarthy. The reason that I put some type of heading there was to make the Table of Contents visible, so it wouldn't require scrolling to find it or even to see if there was one. I couldn't think of a better description of the paragraph that I captioned. It seems rather long for the usual intro into a subject, so I feel that a heading would be appropriate in any case. Perhaps you can think of a better solution, if you agree with my premise. Sincerely, HopsonRoad 13:17, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree that a higher placement of the TOC would be better. I just didn't care for the non-standard look of the "summary" heading. All articles (of any substantial length) are supposed to have intro sections, and they're not supposed to have a heading. I think the best solution would be to shorten the intro section; I agree with you that it's rather long and detailed. I'll get to that some time, or you can do it yourself if you want. RedSpruce 14:19, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

If you're comfortable with the idea, I propose to change the title of the first heading of "Early life and career" to "Biographical," and move much of the material into the re-designated paragraph plus into the introduction to his senate career, "United States Senate." This would leave a leaner summary with a visible TOC. Upon hearing an affirmative, I'll give it a try. Otherwise, I'll leave it to you.HopsonRoad 18:32, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't care much for the heading "Biographical"; the whole article is biographical, after all. The restructuring you talk about would be okay, though I think most of what's currently in the introduction is just repetition, so I don't know if there'd be much worth "moving" rather than deleting. RedSpruce 19:03, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm on board with that. I'll try my hand at it.HopsonRoad 19:42, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Your image upload and edit to Treason

I've reverted your changes to Image:Treason.jpg and the article on Ann Coulter's Treason: Liberal Treachery from the Cold War to the War on Terrorism If you want to upload an image of Orson Scott Card's Treason, that's fine, but don't replace a completely different image with the one you're uploading. Upload it as a new image with a different title. RedSpruce 13:17, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Later... I went ahead and re-uploaded the image under a new name myself, and re-added it to the article List of works by Orson Scott Card. RedSpruce 13:34, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry about that. I didn't know I was replacing another image until it was too late. Pmcalduff 14:09, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. Pmcalduff 14:10, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Donald Ritchie

I take your point, but a blank page isn't a good alternative: see Wikipedia:no blank pages. If it's not fixable by editing, try listing at WP:TFD. Alai 18:19, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I've added a speedy-delete/empty tag to the page. RedSpruce 18:33, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I must admit I'm somewhat struggling with {{db-empty}} as a deletion rationale when it's empty due to your blanking of it. Transparency would be better served if you used some deletion rationale or process more clearly relatable to your actual reasoning for doing so. Alai 03:09, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Film noir

Regarding this edit: I cleaned up the captions to make them more encyclopedic. Phrases like "Cheap at twice the price," "Neo-noir/Take 1," and "It may be 2019, but this is the world of noir, so it's still raining in Los Angeles" are more suited to a film book than Wikipedia...don't you agree? Why change them back? PBP 21:39, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Um, because they were better before you changed them? I know "encyclopedic" means (among other things) "utterly lacking in personality or creativity", but I don't believe that such a level of encyclopedic-ness is necessary, especially in image captions, which have a kind of separation from the article text. RedSpruce 10:27, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

How are they not POV? How are they not written in narrative form? It doesn't matter that they were "better;" what matters if they are neutral. Have you read Wikipedia:Captions? Nothing there says that captions are exempt from the style of Wikipedia. Also, I know of no other captions written in your style. PBP 16:54, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

It's not "my style"; I didn't write them. And they're not POV because (with a couple of microscopic exceptions) they don't express any point of view whatsoever. If there's an objection to be made about these captions, it's that they're unencyclopedic writing, not that they're POV. My point about captions is that they're a little bit separate from the rest of the article, so it seems to me it's perfectly okay to let an author get away with the unencyclopedic sin of writing in a lively, amusing and engaging style. Have you read WP:Ignore all rules and WP:NOT#BUREAUCRACY?

Well, considering User:DCGeist wrote them, and you two have remarkably similar patterns of editing, I guess I just sort of thought you two were the same user and that you must've written the captions. But that doesn't really matter. I looked at the FA Article Review and apparently they liked the captions, so while I still have issues with them, the court has spoken. Thank you. PBP 17:50, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

DCGeist edits on, and displays vast knowledge of, all kinds of topics that I don't -- music, many aspects of movie history, etc. Plus he's so prolific that if I were him as well as myself, I'd have to be at least 4 people. :-) RedSpruce 18:54, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

FSM

Heya. I was about to start on transferring the list of popular media appearances by the Flying Spaghetti Monster into prose, but if you think it'd be better as a list, I can abandon that. Why better as a list, if I may ask? -EarthRise33 00:03, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Hm, well... It's not that I have any intrinsic objection to the list being rewritten as prose; it's just that I can't think of any way to do it that would work well. I'm sure some of the items could be integrated into appropriate parts of the rest of the article, but I would think that most of it could only be made into prose something like: "This happened. Also, this other thing happened. And these people did this thing. And this other guy did this other thing..." In other words, a list, but a really ugly list without paragraph breaks and bullets. However, if you think you can do it without it being ugly, by all means go for it! RedSpruce 00:32, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

You make good points nonetheless. I'll see what I can do, and if I horrify myself in its complete unweildiness, I'll abandon the project. Thanks for your opinion on the matter. -EarthRise33 02:38, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

3RR on Elizabeth Bentley

I gave you a chance to back off and avoid an admin referral for your 4 edits on Elizabeth Bentley. I'm actually sorry you didn't take it but I filled out the paperwork. Let's not make this a habit. TMLutas 17:43, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Three revert rule violation block

You have been blocked from editing for a period of 3 hours in accordance with Wikipedia's blocking policy for violating the three-revert rule at Elizabeth Bentley. Please be more careful to discuss controversial changes or seek dispute resolution rather than engaging in an edit war. If you believe this block is unjustified, you may contest the block by adding the text {{unblock|your reason here}} below.

Sam Blacketer 23:11, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Reporting at WP:AIV

Thank you for making a report about Jorian-Kell (talk · contribs · block log) on Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism. Reporting and removing vandalism is vital to the functioning of Wikipedia and all users are encouraged to revert, warn, and report vandalism. However, administrators are generally only able to block users if they have received a recent final warning (one that mentions that the user may be blocked) and they have recently vandalized after that warning was given. The reported user has not yet been blocked because it appears this has not occurred yet. If this user continues to vandalize even after their final warning, please report them to the AIV noticeboard again. Thank you! --Ginkgo100^talk 18:03, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

My apologies-Joseph McCarthy and the town of Grand Chute.

My apologies about changing the birthplace of Joseph McCarthy from township to town. In Wisconsin towns are the basic civil divisions not townships. Please see Political subdivisions of Wisconsin. Even if a source mentions that Joseph McCarthy was born in the township of Grand Chute that would be very inaccurate; it should be the town of Grand Chute. The system of towns in Wisconsin can be quirky and vexing especially with Michigan, Minnesota, Illinois using townships while Wisconsin using towns. Thank you-RFD 00:01, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

There's certainly no need for you to apologize, as it appears your edit was more correct than mine. I want to look into this some more before I change it again, though. Terms like "town" vs. "city" and "township" vs. "town" have colloquial meanings as well as legal definitions, and sometimes the colloquial meaning does a better job of conveying the correct information to a reader. In this case, McCarthy's birthplace was much closer to the population center of Appleton than it was to that of Grand Chute, even though it was within the "territory" of Grand Chute. Saying that he "was born in the town of Grand Chute" doesn't convey this. I'm going to look again at what the various biographies say; perhaps I'll come up with a better way of wording things that's technically correct without being confusing or misleading. Thanks for your input on this issue. RedSpruce 19:19, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Many thanks for your response.RFD 16:01, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Disputed fair use rationale for Image:John-Gavanti.jpg

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Peer Review of Ralph Flanders

Dear RedSpruce, I invite you and anyone that you feel would be a constructive reviewer in a peer review of Ralph Flanders at Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography/Peer review/Ralph Flanders. Please see Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography/Peer review for instructions. Sincerely, HopsonRoad 19:51, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I'll take a look at the instructions and see what I can offer. RedSpruce 20:07, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Alger Hiss summary

Please do not make a complete reversion of the summary without seeing the discussion page or commenting on it. The testimony of Elizabeth Bentley is well documented and central to why Whittaker Chambers testified as he did in regards to the Ware group and consequently Alger Hiss. If you have disagreements with specific points, references or parts of the summary then feel free to add to it or improve it. What I added addressed specific comments other editors including you brought up. I'd like very much to leave opinions about who and what is central to the argument to consensus, not just one persons opinion. Thank you. Awotter 22:28, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but in my opinion your edit was far less accurate and of poorer quality than the the previous version. In circumstances like that I will exercise my right as an editor to improve the quality of the article in as I see fit. RedSpruce 02:13, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Puzzle globe

Taking into account your expansion of Puzzle globe, I thought you'd be interested in this discussion :) Waldir ^talk 00:00, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

many are the crimes

Hi thanks for the help.. can you flip back to find what footnote 71 of page 294 of the Schrecker book says? [Working on Wolf Ladejinsky but RL intrudes mightily]. Thanks! --Ling.Nut 15:37, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Did you mean note #73? In the hardcover edition of Schrecker, note 71 (for the chapter "A Badge of Infamy") is on page 293 and relates entirely to J. Robert Oppenheimer. Note #73 relates to Ladejinsky (the liberal uproar that "forced the administration to revise its employment security program"), and reads:

R. L. Farrington to Brownell, Jan 13, 1955, Hubert H. Humphrey to Eisenhower, Jan 13, 1955, both in DDE-OF, 104-J.

Let me know if that's not what you're looking for and I'll try again. -- RedSpruce (talk) 17:00, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

You found the right one.. 73. Thanks! ---- Ling.Nut (talk) 17:02, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Erm, any idea what DDE-OF, 104-J means? Sorry to be a pest. I'm nowhere near anything resembling an English language library, and Google was no help. :-( ---- Ling.Nut (talk) 17:04, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

In a previous footnote, this text appears as a source:

in Official File, 104-J, DDEL (hereafter DDE-OF)

And in yet another previous footnote:

Dwight D. Eisenhower Library (hereafter DDEL)

I still have no idea what the "104-J" means, but hopefully this is some help. -- RedSpruce (talk) 17:14, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

(undent) It's a tremendous help. I'll stop bothering you now. Thanks! ---- Ling.Nut (talk) 17:29, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

hoover

hello. i took ur advice and fixed alot of the errors. heres my current version:

"==Strained relationship with the Kennedys==

According to many authors and even Kennedy's own cabinet, Hoover had a tough relationship with President Kennedy and his family. But if you really dig deep into their meetings and past history, it wasn't as bad as people portray it to be. According to the historians and even Hoovers own people, he kept secret files on everyone including the president to insure he wasn't retired. We can assume Kennedy was aware of this because he did not retire him as planned. Instead he was polite to the director when they met. And in return, Hoover was polite and protective. It is possible Hoover felt he had to protect the young president from the dangers lurking around him and even from himself. For example, behind closed doors, Hoover warned Kennedy about his affair with Judith Campbell and how she was the current mistress of Sam Giancana. kennedy severed ties with Campbell after this meeting. A second example, that may drive this point home, is the alliance he and Robert (Bobby) Kennedy, who was the Attorney General, made to put pressure on a number of senators who were demanding an investigation into one of the president's affairs. This affair threatned to put serious damage on the Kennedy name. Hoover and Bobby managed to keep that from happening. Hoover was also the one to bring Bobby the news of his brother's death. But, because of there noticable age difference and different opinions on civil rights, Hoover and Bobby were usually at odds with each other. But according to Hoovers agent Courtney Evans ,who was also the laison between the FBi and the White house, there were never any direct confrontations between Hoover and Bobby. Another factor for their strained relationship could be that Bobby was the laison between Hoover and John, where as Hoover wanted direct contact with the president as he had with past presidents. Yet, a number photographs made public show both Hoover and Bobby either laughing or enjoying the moment, clearly showing the atmosphere wasn't all that bad between the two."

hows dat?

fair enough. then what if i added it with the president section. that way it wont have its own idividual section, but instead is added so that it comments on hoovers relationship with the presidents? —Preceding unsigned comment added by D. R. O'shea (talk • contribs) 15:11, 23 November 2007 (UTC) D. R. O'shea —Preceding unsigned comment added by D. R. O'shea (talk • contribs) 20:11, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Porn-site.jpg

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Marxus

Hm. Well, his article about the Brautigan poetry collection is real (according to Brautigan.net); his edits to the Brautigan article proper might be. I'll leave him a sterner warning about the importance of edit summaries and sources; if he continues screwing around, I'll block him temporarily for not paying attention to warnings. Thank you for bringing this to my attention. DS (talk) 02:21, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I have reluctantly blocked Marxus for 72 hours - said block to be lifted if he actually asks, mind you. DS (talk) 00:50, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Help in Talk:Joseph McCarthy/Frequently asked questions?

Dear RedSpruce, Could you do two things for me in Talk:Joseph McCarthy/Frequently asked questions? 1. Could you supply some citations that support "attack" in the same way that you were able to do for "sensational?" 2. Somehow, the link doesn't work in the concluding paragraph of each section to take one back to the pertinent subsection at Talk:Joseph McCarthy#Discussion of FAQ page where the user is supposed to post his/her comments regarding FAQs. Could you fix one, so that I could follow the model for the rest? Sincerely,--User:HopsonRoad 23:35, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not entirely convinced of the value of this FAQ page, but I'll see what I can do. Regarding the links, it's my experience that using more than one "#" in a wikilink simply doesn't work. It may be that the best you can do is to link to the main heading of the FAQ discussion. RedSpruce (talk) 00:13, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the tip, RS. I'll take out the additional segments. Only time will tell whether there's value in the FAQ page. It hinges partly on whether editors allude to it when new folks come knocking. Cheers,--User:HopsonRoad 01:54, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I found these references, if you think that they'll do:

--User:HopsonRoad 02:28, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Evan's McCarthy book

A month ago you wrote this on the McCarthy talk page:

There is no source or support for the statement that "The controversy was launched again", or even that there is or ever has been a "controversy." For that to be a correct statement, Evans' book has to attract some attention, in scholarly and/or popular circles, and that hasn't happened yet..

obviously neither you nor i are the sole arbitrators of what constitutes a controversy or controversey being launched again, i agree with your criteria that the book should attract some attention for the lines about it that you remobed to warrant inclusion, my question to you is how much attention is enough and who will verify that attention exists? thanks. SJMNY (talk) 09:49, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I'd say the first step would be to document that the book has received any attention in scholarly and/or mainstream press circles. Ann Coulter and a few arch-conservative web sites praising the book doesn't count. For comparison, Coulter's Treason sold a lot of copies, though it didn't have any detectable effect on the views of scholarly authors toward McCarthy. Her book warrants brief mention in the article because of the mainstream press attention it attracted. RedSpruce (talk) 12:53, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Bombing of Dresden

Please see Talk:Bombing of Dresden in World War II#Forced workers --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 11:24, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Disputed fair use rationale for Image:SwordOfDoom.jpg

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Coyote

I want to inform you that your edition at [5] made some non-ASCII characters in Coyote such as fractions, IPA symbols, and inter-wiki links went defective (becoming '?'). I already recovered them. Please be careful. --Octra Bond (talk) 06:51, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Shoot. Thanks for letting me know. RedSpruce (talk) 12:36, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Orson Scott Card

Not that I have any authority to ask you to do this, but could you just resolve the issue with the Bellweather at OSC Talk by apologising for calling them a homophobe? No, Bellweather ought not to have brought up their personal opinion that it's not homophobic to express views like OSC's, but I think it better just to persistently refuse to have that discussion on the OSC Talk page and redirect Bellweather to the page on homophobia, I really do. You're a bigger person than Bellweather: demonstrate it by saying sorry and let's move on. Yonmei (talk) 15:39, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Meh. RedSpruce (talk) 15:53, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Wow. Now RedSpruce is a "bigger person" than me, yet has called me homophobic, without evidence, and refuses to apologize. I'm quite through with this whole discussion. I'll let someone else take the abuse at the page. Bellwether ^B_C 17:31, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Again, not that I have any authority to do so, but I would ask you not to make personal comments about other editors in the RV notes or anywhere else. You were stepping close to the line with your comment about "attempts to conceal". While the point at issue is certainly that, to some people, Orson Scott Card's views about LGBT people ought not to be called homophobic because they themselves see nothing wrong with them, the fact is, the facts are all our side; Orson Scott Card's views are well-sourced: that the views have caused controversy is well-sourced: that the views are referred to as homophobic is well-sourced. A bland and deadly courtesy is infinitely more devastating, and the side which is more polite and has more facts is more likely to win if the people who keep trying to cut it up provoke edit wars and eventually summon administrative help. Yonmei (talk) 14:43, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Your earlier comments re. Bellweather were dead to rights (even if I chose not to follow your advice), but in this case I believe you're completely off-base. My "attempts to conceal" phrasing is a perfectly valid interpretation of that version of the article, and is not by any stretch a personal attack. When an article is written in such a way as to avoid mentioning a controversy whose existence is well-documented, that's just plan wrong. The point is not what is what might be more "devastating"; the point is to report the facts. RedSpruce (talk) 14:57, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I just came back to tell you I've stopped giving a damn: some other editor just declared "Oh yes, I have a citation to a book which discusses Card's homophobia - but I'm not going to add it because that would be taking sides." So I'm quitting Wikipedia, again, before I turn into that kind of Wikipedian where infighting matters much more than information. Take care. Good luck with the Orson Scott Card article. Yonmei (talk) 15:06, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

McCarthyism GA Sweeps Review: On Hold

As part of the WikiProject Good Articles, we're doing sweeps to go over all of the current GAs and see if they still meet the GA criteria. I have reviewed McCarthyism and believe the article currently meets the majority of the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. I'm specifically going over all of the "World History-Americas" articles. In reviewing the article, I have found there are some issues that may need to be addressed, and I'll leave the article on hold for seven days for them to be fixed. I have left this message on your talk page since you have significantly edited the article (based on using this article history tool). Please consider helping address the several points that I listed on the talk page of the article, which shouldn't take too long to fix. I have also left messages on the talk pages for other editors and a related WikiProject to spread the workload around some. If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. --Nehrams2020 (talk) 01:50, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

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Resolved

Fixed, and removed tag.

Handbra and Image:SuicideGirls book cover.jpg

Hi there. The image Image:SuicideGirls book cover.jpg cannot be used in the Handbra article, as it is not a "fair use". The copyright information of the image clearly states that it may only be used "to illustrate an article discussing the book in question". I have reverted both the image and the article. -- JediLofty ^{User ¦ Talk} 13:31, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Not worth arguing over, but the application of a little common sense will tell you that no one connected with ownership of the image would ever have the slightest inkling of a glimmer of a notion of a reason for objecting to this additional use of the image. RedSpruce (talk) 16:34, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Outland (film noir)

Hi RedSpruce,

I've noticed that you reverted my edit concerning the film Outland in the film noir article, arguing it was "critical and box office flop, with nothing to make it worth including here". I agree with you that it was flop. However, the article and (the section) is about the noir style of particular films and not about their critical or financial success. Outland is an example of "tech-noir" and I also explained that it is a sci-fi version of High Noon, a western-noir crossover. So why not mention it? Another user already had removed it from the section arguing it wasn't film noir at all, which actually isn't true. That's why I included it again. Shouldn't the film at least be mentioned in the List of film noir article?

Again, I think the success of a film is not important in this case. The style of it is decisive, since the article is about a certain (sub-)genre which has noticeable characteristics. Regards. Dutzi (talk) 20:49, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

As I see it, there are a couple of criteria that should determine whether a film should be mentioned in this particular article. "Classic" noirs are a shoo-in, of course. Beyond those, one has to consider whether the film is widely considered an example of noir, and whether there's something else about it that makes it notable among all the thousands of movies considered noir. I don't think Outland makes the cut; obviously not everyone agrees that it's truly a noir, and as for notable, it has only one thing going for it: If one does believe that it's a noir, then it's fairly unique in being (arguably) a sci-fi-western-noir crossover. At best, it's questionable whether that claim to notability is all that notable (rather than just kind of odd, even goofy). If it had something else going for it, like being a critical success, that might push it over the edge to being notable enough to mention.

If you really want this edit, you could bring it up in the article's Talk page.

Whether Outland should be included in the List of film noir article is a whole different issue. Personally I'm inclined to think not, but I don't watch that article.

RedSpruce (talk) 21:35, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

You're unquestionably right about the classic noirs of the 1940s and 1950s. As I said, I only put Outland back because someone argued it wasn't noir, although there are several characteristics that define it as noir (or rather "noirish"). I just wasn't happy with his explanation. Now of course, after our extensive discussion, I won't put it back again.

Lately I've been working on the List of film noir article (especially on the Proto-noir-section). In the list there is a Post-classic noir-SF crossovers-section with films like Terminator, Brazil, RoboCop, Alien³ and of course Blade Runner, to name only a few. In my opinion Outland should also be listed, but I think I'll start a discussion first. Thanks for your quick answer. Dutzi (talk) 12:19, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

ANI Notice

Someone has filed a notice regarding your edits at WP:ANI#RedSpruce (talk · contribs) Longterm civility issues & ownership issues. Just thought you'd like to know. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 00:41, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Worktool

Thanks. That tool is fun--I was half hoping/half dreading it would somehow calculate exactly how many minutes/hours/days of my life I've actually spent editing each article.—DCGeist (talk) 18:58, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Annie Lee Moss

I would be delighted to engage in a discussion with you about the value of the edits I reverted here. I would especially enjoy it if, unlike the other editor involved, you know how to read English. Start a new section on the article's talk page and we can begin. RedSpruce (talk) 16:22, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure what the issues are that you have with this article. I'm sure that all the editors involved have reasonable facility with the English language, and I don't see that name calling and personal attacks are the way to go, nor does the WP:ANI case listed above fill me with confidence that these issues can be easily addressed. I encourage you to lay out the specific issues with the Moss article. Alansohn (talk) 18:00, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

If you had read the discussion on the article's talk page, you would have seen that I repeatedly tried to "lay out the specific issues," and Richard Arthur Norton responded over and over and over with answers that were either meaningless or completely ignored the points I raised and the questions I asked. Naturally, this conversing with a brick wall lead to some frustration and annoyance on my part. If you think you can communicate with this person, please do so. RedSpruce (talk) 18:26, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

ref html tag

• Thanks for the notice. Yes, I have been doing it the other way for some time. I will add them without the space from now on, and remove the space when I encounter them in my previous edits. Thanks for your civil tone. Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 17:32, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

• Are you interested in adding material to some of the new biographies of tangential people in the McCarthy era?
• Albert Cohn (judge) for example. There are dozens of articles on him in the New York Times archive via Google News. For some reason I can't get access to the older NYT archived articles anymore, my subscription may have reached its limit, or expired. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 17:37, 17 March 2008 (UTC)