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Current requests

Inclusion of tax liens and opinions about taxation of Joe the Plumber in Joe Wurzelbacher and United States presidential election debates, 2008#Joe the Plumber

Initiated by Erxnmedia (talk) at 00:52, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Involved parties

erxnmedia (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), filing party
Amwestover (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Arzel (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Dp76764 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Betsythedevine (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Bstone (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Kralizec! (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Timhowardriley (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Howrealisreal (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
RS57 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
TomCat4680 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Dtaw2001 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Jdhunt (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Matilda (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Onorem (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Inclusionist (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request`

Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

Several day edit war took place in article and in related article
Matter was put to a vote here: Talk:Joe Wurzelbacher#His views on taxation and here Talk:Joe Wurzelbacher#Why is it vandalism to report his tax problems?
Edit warring continued regardless of discussion

Statement by Erxnmedia

All major news sources have reported that JP has tax liens. JP's stated opinion is that excessive taxes are "taxation without representation" and he makes reference to the Boston Tea Party. Both the tax liens and Tea Party reference have been extensively deleted by editors who feel that the mere mention of these facts denigrates JP. However this information illuminates aspects of JP which are relevant to the context in which he is notable. Erxnmedia (talk) 00:52, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - unfortunately this editor has failed (several times) to read the sources correctly even though the matter has been brought to his attention on his talk page . Only one lien, for a relatively trivial amount, is a tax lien. The other relates to a hospital debt. --Matilda ^talk 20:22, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Dtaw2001

Joe claims to want to buy a business valued at $500,000. Considering that he makes $40,000 and owes back taxes, this fact is very relevant because it call into question his motivation in making this statement and his credibility in general. Dtaw2001 (talk) 13:18, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - income is not necessarily an indicator as to whether the plumber has the capital to buy the business. It is extremely tangential to the question about Obama's vs McCain's policy and their impacts when it comes to a particular income tax threshold. The question was picked up and responded to in detail as it is an important question about thresholds - it is not that the questioner is important. There is not rationale for breaching WP:NPF - ie WP:BLP as it applies to People who are relatively unknown (Non public figure = NPF) - which states Wikipedia also contains biographies of people who, while notable enough for an entry, are not generally well known. In such cases, editors should exercise restraint and include only material relevant to their notability, while omitting information that is irrelevant to the subject's notability.. --Matilda ^talk 20:30, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Betsy Devine

I started a section on the talk page seeking consensus about the tax lien material, due to WP:BLP concerns. I feel that "Joe the Plumber" despite his sudden notoriety falls into our category of not a public figure. In my opinion, Joe's statements about taxation without representation are relevant to his tax question. His tax liens are not. To quote the part of BLP I think is relevant:

Wikipedia also contains biographies of people who, while notable enough for an entry, are not generally well known. In such cases, editors should exercise restraint and include only material relevant to their notability, while omitting information that is irrelevant to the subject's notability. Material from third-party primary sources should not be used unless it has first been published by a reliable secondary source. Material published by the subject must be used with caution. (See Using the subject as a source.) Material that may adversely affect a person's reputation should be treated with special care. In the laws of many countries, simply repeating the defamatory claims of another is illegal, and there are special protections for people who are not public figures. Any such potentially damaging information about a private person, if corroborated by multiple, highly reliable sources, may be cited if the Wikipedia article states that the sources make certain "allegations", without the Wikipedia article taking a position on their truth.

To my mind, the tax lien stuff should go in only if it is relevant to Joe's notability. If he had refused to pay taxes as some kind of protest, for example, that would be relevant to his attitudes about taxes. Others have suggested it is relevant because they can read between the lines to learn more about his character. I disagree. It seems to me that, if we treat it as a "vote", more editors of the talk page take a different view from mine. I don't plan to do any edit warring about this either way.

I would love to get some outside input from more experienced editors on this question. One possibility also is to move it to AfC. This article is under heavy pressure from multiple editors and is being read by a lot of new Wikipedia users. It really could use some help and attention from admins. betsythedevine (talk) 02:05, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by SirFozzie

A) I would recommend that this be speedy rejected as a content dispute.. and B) Look into speedy deleting the article as prima facie WP:BLP1E under WP:NOTNEWS. SirFozzie (talk) 00:56, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In reply to How Do below ... even the AfD closer admits the article as it stands violates WP:BLP, but decided not to apply BLP's rules because Wikipedia has no deadline and WP:Ignore All Rules. Wikipedia is not a tabloid publisher. I don't think that the article close is a good close, and at the very least the article should be stubbed/protected (if not deleted or redirected). SirFozzie (talk) 01:13, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Don't worry, I know too well not to wheelwar. I have brought it to DRV at the suggestion of others. SirFozzie (talk) 01:27, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment from How do you turn this on

I agree with SirFozzie's first point, but not the second. The article in question was just closed at AFD as "keep". See here. It would not be a good idea to speedy-delete it. -- How do you turn this on (talk) 01:00, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Reply to SirFozzie: then I suggest you do that :-) Just please don't go against the close; we don't need more drama in the form of wheelwarring. -- How do you turn this on (talk) 01:18, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment from Cube lurker

This should be an easy resolution. Either reject and support the overturn at DRV for obvious policy violations, unless you want to accept to issue sanctions against the AFD closer who willingly refused to enforce BLP policy.--Cube lurker (talk) 02:33, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment from harej

Literally the day after the debate, there's an RFAR on this Joe the Plumber guy. I propose tagging WP:DR as historical. --harej 02:45, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment from LisaSmall

The phrase "Joe the Plumber" is encyclopedic, and so are the details of the man behind the meme, particularly when they contrast with the iconic image initially presented. Facts in the public record, such as Wurzelbacher's income, entrepreneurial goals, occupational licensing (or lack thereof), and tax delinquency, are directly relevant to his role in illustrating the two candidates' tax policies. He is famous for his views on taxes. The presence of the tax lien is directly relevant to that, regardless of the reason underlying it (unwillingness to pay, inability to pay, accidental or intentional neglect, whatever.) He has chosen to give multiple interviews to many media outlets, and is presently scheduled to appear on the Sunday political talk shows about 36 hours from now. He is a willing public figure and entitled to the protection for living persons, but not for more than that. — LisaSmall ^T/C 03:26, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - please refer to the part of the BLP policy tat refers to non-public figures at WP:NPF. Much of what you are choosing to include comes under Wikipedia also contains biographies of people who, while notable enough for an entry, are not generally well known. In such cases, editors should exercise restraint and include only material relevant to their notability, while omitting information that is irrelevant to the subject's notability.--Matilda ^talk 20:32, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment from Arzel

His personal tax problems are irrelevant to his bio unless they are explicitly relevant to his notability, and they are not. Not only is this a violation of BLP it is undue weight for the article in general. That he even has an article is beyond me since this is clearly a one-event issue. This man is being attacked ruthlessly simply because he asked a question to which Obama gave a poor answer, and to extend that attack here by marginalizing him is a sad state. This a perfect example of an Ad Hominem attack being performed on him before our eyes in MSM, and subsequent attempts to further that attack here on WP. Arzel (talk) 13:43, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What do men who have sex with men have to do with this? DS (talk) 03:28, 20 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment from uninvolved Ncmvocalist

Problems with biographies of living persons continue even today. The Committee made a notably substantial effort in that case by forming a remedy that can assist in resolving such problems. However, if the community furthers these problems, or if administrators involved in the debate do not use the remedy that resulted from that finding, then I don't see much point in coming here. For the record, I personally found Bjweeks closing rationale for the AFD utterly unsatisfactory in the light of the above finding, and failure to enforce BLP policy as unhelpful. I don't think there would be any problem with redirecting the article under the above BLP remedy, but that is just my view. Ncmvocalist (talk) 07:01, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement from Amwestover

I don't believe that his reported tax lien or his lien for hospital payments are relevant to his notability. He is notable for simply asking a question while Obama was on the campaign trail that was related to Obama's tax plan. Does that mean that every person who questions a politician's tax plan should be scrutinized for their financial situation? A janitor could've asked the question and the question as well as Obama's response would be just as valid. Are only women allowed to ask questions about abortion rights? Are only veterans allowed to ask questions about foreign war policy? Are only teachers allowed to ask questions about education? I say that including his tax liens is akin to including information about his divorce.

As for his quote about taxation and representation, unless it can be explicitly placed in context to his question posed to Obama or his interviews related to his question, I think it's inappropriate to include it since I haven't seen it attributed to his notability yet. From what I've seen, no context has been applied to the quote. He could've been referring to taxation in general, Obama's tax plan, the Bailout Bill (which I'd personally agree with him if this were his context), or anything. So far I've only seen the quote used alone or used in original research regarding his tax lien. --Amwestover (talk) 15:47, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In response to Inclusionist

I feel I should remind you that consensus is a negotiation, not a popular vote. The reason that users such as myself have had to revert so many contributions is because other users have been ignoring the steps for consensus. User Dtaw2001 went so far as to report me for vandalism before attempting consensus on an issue that was already being discussed on the talk page. His vandalism report was swiftly rejected after evaluation by a Wikipedia administrator. --Amwestover (talk) 23:17, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In response to Ohnoitsjamie

Wikipedia is not news and does not strive to be. That's what Wikinews is for. --Amwestover (talk) 23:17, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I realize that. That's why I nominated the article for deletion in the first place. What I'm saying is that if Wikipedia insists on keeping it, it ought not to censor what other major media outlets are reporting. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 00:40, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement from User:Ohnoitsjamie

If Wikipedia is going to be the news, it should report what major news outlets are reporting; thus, tax liens are relevant. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 16:08, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement from User:Inclusionist

User:Betsythedevine created a small survey on the talk page about whether the tax information should stay in the article, by a vote of 11 to 4, users felt the information should remain in the article:

Exclude (delete): User:Arzel, User:Amwestover (editor with less than 500 edits), User:Dp76764, User:Betsythedevine

Include (inclusion): User:Timhowardriley, User:Seer, User:Bstone, User:Inclusionist, User:Howrealisreal, User:TomCat4680, User:RS57, User:Kralizec!, User:Erxnmedia, User:Lisasmall, User:LisaSmall

Despite the 4 to 1 support for the tax information remaining in the article, User:Arzel and User:Amwestover User:Dp76764 continue to remove this information against consensus.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12] When pressed, User:Arzel said "this is a BLP issue to which concensus [sic] does not even apply"[13], despite voting himself to exclude this information.

Inclusionist (talk) 17:57, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by User:Arthur Rubin

I wasn't involved, until I saw a pointer to this RfAr. I am now....

I urge rejection as both the DR and the discussion on Joe's talk page are actively proceeding. WP:BLPN is another possible venue for discussion which hasn't been tried.

And, if anyone cares, I think that a tax lien, if sourced to a "trusted" (stronger than "reliable") source, such as AP, is relevant to his views on taxes. Hence, if his views are included, so should the lien. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:50, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by User:Bstone

This seems like a content dispute to me and should go through the proper channels, including medcab, etc. Not sure why it's been appealed here so quickly. Bstone (talk) 22:54, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Protonk (talk)

You can make me party to this, as I removed the section a few times. This is a content dispute and should be rejected. On the merits of the content dispute: Joe the Plumber is a non-public figure who got dragged through the media circus through some fault of his and some fault of our pre-occupations with "man on the street" journalism. WP:NPF applies and should be applied consistently, immediately and broadly. Protonk (talk) 03:00, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Matilda (talk)

As per Protonk - content dispute and should be rejected - WP:NPF applies. --Matilda ^talk 20:45, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Jim62sch

To Sam: Tax liens in the US are available to the public, as they are a form of prosecution for a "misdeed". Jim62sch^dissera! 22:49, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by uninvolved Non Curat Lex

It is good that the involved editors are trying to go to a third party dispute resolution, essential to avoiding destructive edit wars, however, RfAr is almost certainly not the correct forum. The dispute about Joe The Plumber, whether he is notable or BLP1E, and whether his tax views should be presented with or without evidence of his bias, is a content dispute.

(For what it's worth, I think Joe Wurzlebacher is BLP1E, but the abstract concept of "Joe The Plumber" is such a significant political meme that it bears mention sonewhere in the 'pedia. But really, it's more of an example or instance of a notable practice, than it is a notable subject unto itself. If you are going to talk about Joe Woozelwonker's opinions on taxation, it would probably give undue weight to provide his "expert opinion" without presenting facts probative of substantial bias.)

The involved editors should be commended for their efforts to use dispute resolution, but this matter should be directed to more appropriate channels for content disputes, and for entry-level dispute resolution. I hope everyone involved will continue to edit in keeping with the wiki way. Non Curat Lex (talk) 23:04, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Clerk notes

The request does not list notifications, could the filling party please list all notifications of involved parties in the appropriate section?--Tznkai (talk) 02:47, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The filing party has added the requested information. betsythedevine (talk) 12:54, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (0/4/0/0)

Reject, premature, content dispute, work it out. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 16:09, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Decline. After a careful review of the submissions and evidence, I conclude that this is a content dispute, albeit a sensitive one given the BLP issues, that can hopefully be addressed through normal consensus procedures. (Separate from my role as an arbitrator, I have taken a look at this controversy as part of my review of how we can improve our policies and procedures relating to BLP issues (a matter on which I will be sharing some thoughts and recommendations once a current period of real-world busy-ness for me passes).) Newyorkbrad (talk) 20:49, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Reject; clear content dispute. I'm afraid I don't have the detailed knowledge of the US income tax system (in the UK the HM Revenue and Customs refuse to discuss any tax issue in public) but would urge care when dealing with any living individual's personal affairs. Sam Blacketer (talk) 22:30, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Reject, per above, this is a content dispute and it is also premature. It is concerning that the same haste that has already caused problems elsewhere in this content area is showing up again (in the needless speedy closing of the deletion debate), but first and foremost this needs community consideration. My own view on the content question, as a mergist, would be that the material should be covered in articles about the debates or the campaign, where it can be provided with the most context. --bainer (talk) 23:17, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Clarifications and other requests

Shortcuts

Place requests related to amendments of prior cases, appeals, and clarifications on this page. If the case is ongoing, please use the relevant talk page. Requests for enforcement of past cases should be made at Arbitration enforcement. Requests to clarify general Arbitration matters should be made on the Talk page. To create a new request for arbitration, please go to Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration. Place new requests at the top. Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/How-to other requests

Arbitration Committee proceedings

Case requests

Currently, there are no requests for arbitration.

[edit]

Open cases

Case name	Links	Evidence due	Prop. Dec. due
Venezuelan politics	(t) (ev / t) (ws / t) (pd / t)	20 Apr 2024	04 May 2024

[edit]

Recently closed cases (Past cases)

Case name	Closed
Conflict of interest management	13 Apr 2024
Mzajac	7 May 2024

Clarification and Amendment requests

Request name	Motions	Case	Posted
Amendment request: Conduct in deletion-related editing	none	(orig. case)	30 April 2024
Clarification request: Palestine-Israel articles 4	none	(orig. case)	8 May 2024

Arbitrator motions

No arbitrator motions are currently open.

Current requests

Request for desysop and block of administrator Hemanshu

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

MBisanz (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (initiator)
Hemanshu (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) - notified
Jaysweet (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) - notified

Statement by MBisanz

I am requesting that Hemanshu (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) be blocked and desysopped pending the re-establishment of communication. As is documented in this AN thread, over the last year various users have attempted to initiate communication with Hemanshu over various edits he has made that conflict with editing guidelines. Hemanshu has not responded to communication since 2005. Jaysweet (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) and myself have attempted numerous times to contact Hemanshu, using both EmailUser and emails found on a google search of his name, without success in establishing communication. Yesterday, I left a firm message on Hemanushu's talk page [14] that if he continued to make controversial edits without responding to any inquiry, I would file a request for desysopping and blocking. Several hours subsequent to my post, he continued to make the same form of edits [15] without response. Therefore, I am filing this request. I believe this can be dealt with in the same manner as the CSCWEM case as in both instances the users in question have refused to respond to any inquiries to their actions. MBisanz ^talk 02:18, 20 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

NE2: As administrators can unblock themselves, it seems prudent to perform a desysop + block, since the same communication that would undo the block would also result in the re-sysopping. MBisanz ^talk 02:23, 20 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Further research shows he has been desysopped at the Marathi Wikipedia and that over half a dozen users have tried to contact him on his enwiki talk page: [16], [17], [18], [19], [20], [21], [22], [23], [24]. I believe the community has exhausted all ways in which to communicate with him and that an RFC would be pointless as he will not respond to any inquiry. MBisanz ^talk 02:34, 20 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

NE2, unblocking oneself generally isn't grounds for emergency desysop, and having an indef blocked admin account seems rather pointless. MBisanz ^talk 02:35, 20 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

NYB: It could be I guess, but since I'm not asking for a fullblown case and the other party is silent, I thought a straight request would be the most proper action. And this is the Clarifications and other requests section. MBisanz ^talk 02:56, 20 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by NE2

Since he's only used his admin tools once in the past two years, why is the AbrCom needed? Can't he just be blocked? --NE2 02:21, 20 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To MBisanz: isn't self-unblocking somewhere higher in the level of sins? If he unblocks himself after a consensus-supported block, you shouldn't have any trouble finding a steward to desysop. --NE2 02:31, 20 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Taxman

Nowhere does this rise to the level of the need for arbitration. Nothing has been tried other than leaving messages and emails. If unblocking isn't grounds for emergency desysopping then there certainly is no need to file an arbitration case to desysop a user on the grounds that they might do something that isn't even considered an emergency problem. Just decide if a block is warranted and handle it on the admin noticeboard. You haven't even established that an indef block is needed, so using that in your reasoning is also putting the cart before the horse. Use the right tool for the issue and this isn't it. - Taxman ^Talk 02:50, 20 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Jehochman

If there is disruption, block to prevent disruption. If the disruption resumes, try a longer block. If the user unblocks themselves, that may be grounds for desysopping. Work step by step. Jehochman ^Talk 03:03, 20 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by other user

Clerk notes

Arbitrator views and discussion

Shouldn't this be a new case (top of the page), rather than a request for clarification? Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:54, 20 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see what the point of this is, to be frank. Hemanshu hardly edits at all. If I didn't like his edits, I would simply roll him back and that would take less than a minute. All the navel gazing and litigation preparations seem very efficient. If I did this kind of thing each time something like this cropped up I would never be able to get any editing done. YellowMonkey (click here to chose Australia's next top model!) 04:07, 20 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Request for appeal of block to User:ResearchEditor

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

ResearchEditor (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), filing party (by email)
Moreschi (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA), blocking admin [25]
Hersfold (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA), reviewing admin (self added)

Statement by ResearchEditor

I believe that I have shown at here that the blocking admin Moreschi here had a conflict of interest when blocking me. He had a vested interest in blocking my POV from the SRA page. As per here" Administrators should not use their tools to advantage, or in a content dispute (or article) where they are a party (or significant editor), or where a significant conflict of interest is likely toexist....administrators should ensure they are reasonably neutral parties when they use the tools." Also, I have been unable to defend myself in front of the wikpedia community at here which I should have been able to do before such a lengthy block occured.

Statement by WLU

Note that Moreschi blocked ResearchEditor for evading a page ban based on this RFCU. ResearchEditor has been banned from editing the satanic ritual abuse and related pages (with the banwas sanctioned here) and though Moreschi started the discussion, many, many other editors weighed in and the consensus was ResearchEditor was a tendentious editor pushing a fringe point of view that was not supported by the mainstream scholarly opinion. The ban is a separate issue from the block, and Moreschi seems completely within his rights to institute a block for evading a community ban through sockpuppeting, confirmed through a RfCU. This block as nothing to do with blocking a POV, and is actually about ResearchEditor evading a community ban. WLU (t) (c) ^{(rules - simple rules)} 00:34, 20 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by User:Hersfold

I am adding myself to this request as an administrator who twice declined ResearchEditor's requests for unblocking. When I reviewed the checkuser case, the terms of the topic ban, and the contributions of all accounts involved, it seemed very clear that this user was repeatedly using alternate accounts in an attempt to circumvent the ban, placed for the reasons WLU has outlines above. ResearchEditor's main argument against the block appears to be the perceived conflict of interest held by blocking administrator Moreschi at the time of the block. However, since three administrators have looked into the situation on ResearchEditor's talk page, and two of those admins (one myself) have declined to unblock him, this would appear to fall under the de facto definition of a community ban, that is, "no administrator is willing to unblock." As I said on ResearchEditor's talk page, if a block is endorsed by another administrator, then he is in effect blocked by all those endorsing the block. Hersfold ^(t/a/c) 03:46, 20 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Clerk notes

Received by email to Clerks, posted on behalf of appellant. — Coren ^(talk) 00:06, 20 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitrator views and discussion

The sockpuppetry indicated at Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/ResearchEditor would generally have been enough for an indefinite ban, regardless of who did the blocking. You are topic-banned from the SRA article, and your use of sockpuppets to get around the ban makes it clear you have no intention of abiding by Wikipedia's policies. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 00:37, 20 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Request for extension: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Episodes and characters 2

Involved users

Phil Sandifer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), filing party;
TTN (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (notification).

Statement by Phil Sandifer

TTN was banned from deletion activities for six months for his failure to work "collaboratively and constructively with the broader community" on the area of notability and deletion. Since the expiration of his ban, his contributions have been entirely to "merge" content (I say merge because, in fact, he simply redirects pages without discussion), and mass-nominate articles for deletion. For instance, his mass-redirection of articles with identical edit summaries: [26] [27] [28] [29] [30] and so on. These edits were unaccompanied by any edits to talk pages to garner consensus. Indeed, even as the very policies he cites as justification are under heavy discussion, including an RFC that got a watchlist notice, TTN has made no contributions towards seeking consensus. None. Wikipedia:Notability/RFC:compromise shows no comments by him.

Regardless of the appropriateness of his nominations, this is the behavior he was previously sanctioned for. And he has returned to it. The routine norm, in such cases, is, at a minimum, to restore the sanctions that were actually effective at preventing the behavior.

Therefore, given his continued failure to work collaboratively and constructively, and the fact that he has returned to the exact behavior that got him previously sanctioned, I request that the arbitration committee restore Remedy 1 from the relevant case without expiration. Phil Sandifer (talk) 06:50, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In response to some of the comments below, this is not about the accuracy of TTN's deletion nominations. I would vote delete on about half of them myself. The issue is not whether his proposals are within consensus or not - it is on whether he is working collaboratively and constructively with the broader community. That necessarily involves some level of dialogue with said community. As for the suggestion that editors of fiction articles are also working outside of consensus, I do not see extending this remedy as precluding enforcement against other problematic users, and I would be surprised if the arbcom did.

A further piece of evidence as well. I encourage anybody to look at [31]. Those are TTN's talk page contributions. Note that the overwhelming majority of them are redirects or template removals of pages. There are only a handful of cases - once every two or three days - where TTN is discussing his edits. Compare to the 8 edits he has made so far to talk pages making any discussion of his edits in October to the over 250 edits he has made so far to articles either nominating them for deletion or merging them in October. That is in no way, in letter or spirit, complying with the directive to work collaboratively and constructively with other editors. Phil Sandifer (talk) 14:29, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Protonk, I'm not pillorying TTN over the deletion or merger. But if we don't have a consensus on these issues, and I agree with you that we don't, we need to try to find one. Please explain to me how over 250 merges and deletions in a week with only 8 comments on talk pages about them constitute attempts to find consensus, or to work with other editors. Please explain to me how TTN is in any way complying with the instruction that previous non-compliance with led to a six month ban from these issues. Because otherwise, this seems straightforward - he was previously sanctioned for something. He is doing it again. What's changed? Phil Sandifer (talk) 16:32, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In response to Bainer's comments, with all due respect, the claim that there is nowhere to discuss these issues except for AfD is absurd. When merging articles, the article talk pages are a fine place to discuss merges. (Or, more accurately, redirects) For the large batch of episodes of the TV show Heroes he recently mass redirected I would think that stopping in at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Heroes might have been effective.

Were TTN interested in discussion and consensus-building, even with the continued contentiousness of a general guideline for fiction, many opportunities were available to him, not least of which was participating in the RFC to work on the notability issues for fiction. That TTN ignored all of these channels and ignored attempts to build consensus on this issue does not seem to me to be a good thing, and I am, frankly, baffled how you can suggest that AfD was the only channel open to him. Phil Sandifer (talk) 23:33, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am, frankly, dismayed to see the overall conduct of the Arbcom in this - after two rulings that clearly establish a bar for actions in this area to clear - seeking consensus, discussing, and working with other editors - the arbcom seems to, now that the case has made it to them a third time, they seem to be simply backing up from their previous ruling and deciding that the whole thing is a content dispute. While I understand their reluctance to be involved in notability issues, given that they have twice issued a ruling on exactly this issue to decide that suddenly it is a content issue that they cannot rule on is baffling. Perhaps one of the arbitrators could better articulate why mass nomination for deletion has suddenly become a content rather than a conduct issue. Phil Sandifer (talk) 16:35, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by SirFozzie

You know, I'm beginning to think "Episodes and Characters" is the ArbCom version of the Chinese Water Torture. I think TTN has been working within Wikipedia Guidelines. One can never fruitfully seek consensus to delete or redirect on a talk page, quite frankly, the most interested (or should I say biased) people to keeping an article on that article. I suggest that ArbCom deny this request and tell BOTH sides to continue to work within policy, rather then constantly seeking the heavy hammer of ArbCom to do their work for them. SirFozzie (talk) 07:34, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by sgeureka

...And another E&C arbcom thread aiming to expose TTN as the evil culprit, while fan editors are sooooo totally working "collaboratively and constructively with the broader community", restoring articles that fail WP policies and guidelines left and right instead of fixing the deficiencies to a minimum level so that the messenger (TTN) leaves them alone. (I'd say more but these may-I-say-misguided TTN-arbcom appeals are just getting tiresome.) – sgeureka ^t•c 11:53, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by CBDunkerson

TTN recently nominated Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch for deletion. The discussion was closed as a snowball keep. TTN then immediately placed a merge tag on the article. That's just not 'working within consensus'. There was an overwhelming consensus to keep the article. NOT to make it a redirect to a brief mention in another article, TTN's acknowledged definition of 'merge'... otherwise known as deletion. Continually pressing against the lack of general consensus around notability standards for fictional topics with constant deletion efforts is IMO bad enough... but ignoring consensus when it does form is a problem. When he loses an argument he needs to accept that. NOT try to get the same result people just overwhelmingly rejected through the back door. --CBD 12:50, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Protonk (talk)

This is the same basic request as the previous request for clarification. The answer here should be the same. We don't have a functioning guideline to deal with notability of fictional subjects--specifically those which do not cite any sources. Many, many articles on fictional subjects will either never have sources or will never cite sources (because people can't be bothered). Until we have some community accepted guideline for inclusion it doesn't help to pillory TTN over the deletion or merger of these articles.

His case came to ArbComm because of edit warring over merger tags and redirects. Proposing mergers and nominating articles for deletion isn't the same thing. It is clear that what TTN wants to do is reduce the number of fictional articles we have on wikipedia. I don't think that the result of the previous case should read "TTN cannot work to reduce the number of fictional articles". I agree that people are pissed about the Monty Python thing, although the merger proposal was perfectly reasonable. I have fewer defenses for this copy/paste AfD rationales, but I don't think either act is a refusal to respect consensus. when I say pillory I don't mean you in particular. I mean to say that the debate is larger than TTN and that without some clear resolution of that larger debate we can't blame him for forcing current community standards on articles that people like.

Statement by Kww

TTN is working as cooperatively as possible with people that don't tend to be cooperative. He is bringing the articles to AFD, and participating in the AFD discussions. He is not performing unilateral redirect and mergings, because, even though they are far more efficient, he was told to stop.

As for Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch, there actually is a cooperative merge discussion going on at Talk:Monty Python and the Holy Grail#Merge, where most of the participants are being polite and cooperative. The snowball keep came as a result of a pile-on by fans, not as a result of any policy based discussions.

I think we are at the point where reporting TTN to Arbcom is more of a problem than TTN himself.—Kww(talk) 17:02, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Kung Fu Man

TTN is a pain in a great deal of asses here on wikipedia, mine included. However, for the most part he is trying to be cooperative and clean things up and do it by the books: case in point an AfD that was closed by him after two people pointed out quickly the characters in the nominated article were mentioned in other books and notable. I seriously don't think at this point in time this is necessary at all.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 20:57, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by nifboy

As I complained about in the previous RFAR thread, as well as an AfD filed solely because TTN didn't, this feels increasingly like bureaucracy creep. AfD is increasingly treated like a CYA, discouraging WP:BOLD across the project. Nifboy (talk) 21:15, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Black Kite

"As for the suggestion that editors of fiction articles are also working outside of consensus, I do not see extending this remedy as precluding enforcement against other problematic users, and I would be surprised if the arbcom did." This comedic request for clarification would indicate that the current ArbCom actually do think that. In the end, what do we want Wikipedia to be? If we want it to be a free-for-all without regard to independent notability, feel free to reset TTN's sanction. If we want it to be an encyclopedia, he's going about it in the only way possible - there is intrasigence on both sides here and I don't see that concentrating on TTN - yet again - is particularly helpful. Let's face it, he's not exactly doing it for his health [32].Black Kite 22:56, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by DGG

I see no real evidence of cooperation. Day after day he continues to nominate 5 to 10 articles for deletion without considering the possibility of merge or redirect--if asked about why he has not done so he almost always ignores the question. Day after day he uses the same deletion summary, without indicating anything about the individual article--he does not help the discussion by even indicating what work of fiction it is or what role the character plays; when asked to clarify his deletion summaries he ignores that also. He generally nominates articles at the same time of widely varying importance from different fictions; either he is working indiscriminately, or deliberately making it very hard to defend intelligently: he can use the same deletion argument for everything, since he includes every possible reason for deleting an article, but a defense of the article has to be focused & cover them all in detail. He continues sometimes to redirect without discussion. I'm not going to add to the diffs here-- 99 % of the diffs on his contributions show this, so there's hardly need to select. But as an example, showing his consistent pattern of asking for sources and then, if found, denying relevance, see "Most recent prime-time episodes are reviewed by a number of sources" used by him as a delete argument! The one sensible close pointed out by Kung Fu Man was yesterday, and he's been quiet since--after it became clear this was going to be filed. This matches what to me is the proof of his bad faith is the immediate resumption of deletion activity immediate after the arb com moratorium. His enforced departure from merge/deletion/redirect will not hurt the deletionist cause any more than his previous enforced departure did: there are enough others trying to carry out a rationalisation of the content, generally in a less damaging way. The victory at Wikipedia discussions should not go to the most stubborn. DGG (talk) 00:19, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

the BRD approach requires being willing to enter into Discussion,and only works when people are reasonable about it. There are other editors who sometimes may be unreasonable, but not to this extent. Failing to agree on a guideline discussion is not being disruptive, and not in the same category as making massive afds and redirects. That people did not all want to adopt someone's proposals does not mean they are disruptive. DGG (talk) 07:39, 10 October 2008 (UTC).[reply]

Statement by Sjakkalle

What ticks me off with TTN is not that he has very strict (in my opinion way too strict) standards for fictional topics. It is that he has apparently no interest at all in creating any content whatsoever. His edits are overwhelmingly target towards removing or deleting content. Even while he was banned from AFD-ing or merging fiction topics, his main activity consisted of "trimming" fiction topics.

It also concerns me that TTN has a tendency to fire off AFD nominations at machine gun pace; with several nominations taking place within the space of a few minutes. Has he taken enough time to review each article he nominates, and think carefully through what alternatives there might be to deletion?

I have worked with a lot of users who could be described (sometimes by themselves) as "deletionist", and I can recognize them as excellent contributors; their deletionism is tempered by excellent content writing. Therefore, they realize and can empathize with the challenges in locating sources. They become peer contributors who can discuss and work cooperatively, instead of policemen who hammer down on everything. I can only hope that TTN will redirect his energies towards some article writing. Sjakkalle (Check!) 07:07, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Stifle

I massively oppose any reinstatement of sanctions against TTN. He is doing a very good job clearing up unencyclopedic material, is doing it civilly, and is coming up against entrenched opposition from vested interests. Stifle (talk) 10:09, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by MuZemike

As feared, it is my opinion that this (as well as any such discussion involving TTN) has devolved into a inclusionist/deletionist debate. A lot of the AfDs he nominated I happen to agree with, but some I also have disagreed; but that's beside the point. It seems that more than anything many users — which include obviously biased editors, fanboys, and others with extremely vested interests in articles to the point of ownership — want TTN with a proverbial rope around his neck, even to the point that some users have resorted to sockpuppetry and even death threats. I only see this as a ploy to keep bugging ArbCom until they get the result they so desire. MuZemike (talk) 20:26, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by CharlotteWebb

I don't see how TTN's immediate resumption of the same behavior that let to a six-month topic ban (from merging and AFDing articles related to fiction) can be anything other than exhausting the community's patience. He's certainly exhausted mine. I don't usually edit articles related to fiction, but I do often read them whenever I can. Quite frankly it pisses me off when I have to dig through the edit history or look on Deletionpedia to find the information I'm looking for.

I urge the committee to accept this case and consider issuing a ban of greater duration and breadth. — CharlotteWebb 21:27, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Randomran

I just don't see any real policy breach. He's using Wikipedia's process as it has been designed:

Be bold
Revert edits you disagree with
Instead of revert warring, discuss. (For example, AFD or a merge discussion.)

Bold editing is not only acceptable, it is encouraged. "Any changes you make that turn out badly can be reverted, often quite painlessly." And indeed some of TTN's changes were reverted. I disagree with many of his editing decisions, but he certainly has the right to try them out, as much as people have the right to revert them. I would only have an issue if he started revert warring, or canvassing, or waiting around until no one was looking to try the exact same thing again. But so far, he seems to get the WP:POINT whenever the consensus forms. That's good, isn't it?

The other complaints are more dubious. Nominating articles for AFD with an explanation of the policy violation is insufficient? Suggesting a merge after a failed AFD is disruptive? In my view, starting a discussion is almost always a *good* thing. That's where editors get to challenge his view of the content and build a consensus with or against him. Consensus building is always helpful! I repeat for the sake of summarizing and emphasizing: starting a discussion about content is almost always good faith, and almost always helpful.

(As an aside, the same isn't true for starting a discussion about a user's behavior. It seems there are a few editors who have piled in because TTN breached sanctions that expired a month ago. You can't ask to throw someone back in jail just because they're exercising rights that they were previously entitled to.)

The only time when discussing content stops being helpful is where it becomes repetitive, out of step with settled policy or consensus. Where discussion becomes WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT or WP:FORUMSHOPping. But that means that the editor has to be shown that he/she is re-opening the same issue over and over. Someone has to make a good faith effort to educate the problem editor, rather than jumping into accusations or bureaucratic sanctions. For example, the idea that a few reliable third-party sources are insufficient for notability seems to go against consensus -- let alone what WP:N says. I haven't taken a closer look at this particular content dispute, so maybe there's actually a policy reason that justifies TTN's viewpoint. But you won't know until you actually try to discuss it with him, preferably at his talk page away from any specific content.

As someone who just wants articles to meet guidelines -- no more and no less -- I'm sympathetic to people who are frustrated with extreme deletionists or inclusionists, who invent their own standards for inclusion. Even though extremists seldom get their way, it can be frustrating to butt heads with them over and over, after one issue has been settled. I don't think it has gotten to that point yet because I haven't seen TTN trying to re-open settled issues in a WP:POINTy or WP:GAMEy way. But everyone should do what they can to make sure it doesn't go there. That's equally true if people keep requesting new or extended sanctions against TTN without showing a real policy/guideline breach. Randomran (talk) 21:42, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Masem

If people believe TTN's present actions (which are generally targeting articles that do lack notability, and with methods that follow the WP:BRD approach) are against ArbCom, then we should be bringing up those editors (both inclusionists and deletionists) that are prevent any sort of compromise in the last year and half to resolve issues with fiction and notability. We've tried to offer a middle of the road solution (the current failed WP:FICT proposal), we're trying to work out how to resolve this on the general scale with the general notability guideline, but the same names keep coming up (for opposite sides of the issue) saying these doesn't meet what they want. Given that the second part of the ArbCom decision was to get all involved editors to work cooperatively to revolve the issue of notability and episodes and characters, and these people are not helping towards a compromise, then they are as much at fault as TTN is above by his current actions...

But of course, I'm not going to call these names forward for ArbCom arbitration, just as much as I don't believe that TTN is doing anything against the overall ArbCom case. But it is important to remind those that would like to see nothing less than TTN banned from editing WP forever that the decision was not unilaterally towards TTN's actions; cooperation and compromise are needed as well. --MASEM 23:42, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by jc37

In general, as bainer notes below, there is really no "common practice" when it comes to such articles. Such AfD results often vary wildly.

Let's presume that someday we do develop some sort of policy/guideline, which most everyone can agree on.

Does that mean that we're then going to have to go back through all these articles which have been deleted/merged/redirected, and restore them? A herculean task, which should never be necessary, but will be, regardless.

I've seen enough fait accompli to understand that while theoretically, deletions (and moves, and merges, etc.) can be undone, it's usually much more difficult in practice.

I think this is just another case of "everyone's got a divergent opinion", and there are those who don't want to see the house burned down before the process of remodeling has been completed.

Incidentally, here's another "start" to such a discussion: Wikipedia:Notability/RFC:compromise. - jc37 08:40, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Y|yukichigai

While I have no particular love for TTN, at this point I'm not exactly calling for his head either. He has nominated a rather large number of articles for deletion and redirected several others in the wake of his restriction lapsing, which I think is a bit excessive, but he doesn't seem to be engaging as much in the same "revert every attempt to restore the article and ignore all discussion" behavior which rallied the figurative Angry Mob With Pitchforks and Torches last time around. The fact that he is still doing it at all is troubling though, because it's causing the same sort of issues that effectively led to a wiki-wide edit war, only this time it's happening slower.

I honestly think TTN has put forth an effort to change, but somehow he's not quite gotten a handle on the whole "you don't have the final say" part of things. At this point I wouldn't endorse an indefinite re-extension of the restriction, but I would endorse a temporary re-extension for a few months just to "gently" re-affirm the point of the last RfArb. -- Y|yukichigai (_ramble argue ^check) 15:32, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to add that after reading Wizardman's statement I most definitely agree: ArbCom needs to make some sort of definitive statement regarding TTN's behavior, one way or the other. Anything resembling a "no consensus" will simply delay things for a few months (or weeks) whereupon a new request for clarification will show up again. -- Y|yukichigai (_ramble argue ^check) 22:12, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Gazimoff

I raised this same issue at this same venue about three weeks ago. I was hoping that the concerns and issues would be thrashed out, but it's disappointing to see that it's returned to this venue.

To be honest, I do not have a problem with TTN raising articles for deletion, or creating redirects, or merging content. These are a much needed part of the general content editing process that helps promote good articles. Although I would be happier if TTN demonstrated that he searched for sources himself before removing content, I can understand why it takes place.

My primary concern then, as it is now, is the througput or the rate at which he carries out content removal actions or raises AfDs. It is the volume of work that I feel causes concerns amongst the content creators in the community, and which I'm almost certain has brought this back here. It's not a content dispute, as I'm sure we can come to agreeents on content through other processes. It's behavioural - his activity occurs at such a rate that it stretches the ability for other editors to respond to his concerns.

I would encourage TTN to work with Wikiprojects in order to discuss his article concerns becore embarking on mass or large scale actions. I would also urge TTN to throttle or limit the rate at which he removes content or raises AfDs in order to ensure that the rest of the editing community has a legitemate chance to respond to his concerns.

Many thanks, Gazimoff 18:53, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Josiah Rowe

It's been suggested that TTN is operating under WP:BRD. He's certainly being bold, and many of his edits are indeed reverted — but in proportion to his bold edits, there is very little discussion. I don't know if further sanctions are appropriate or needed here, but I do think that a strong encouragement towards more discussion and civil engagement with other editors would be helpful. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 17:53, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Jayron32

I am entirely uninvolved in this situation, I was never involved in any of the deltions, nor any discussions involving this user or this problem in the past. I am merely commenting as someone who has been a passive observer for months. This is not about the deletions of articles of TV characters, this is about the specific behavior of TTN with regard to making WP:POINTs, especially as it comes to these articles and his behavior at AFD and other places. The act of proposing mass deletions of entire groups of articles with little or no rationale is disruptive. That each of his deletions has the exact same deltion reason shows that he has no intention of considering each article on its own merits, the speed of these nominations shows that he isn't considering that there may be some articles which are deletable, and others which DO pass muster. It would appear from his actions that he is merely trying to delete an entire class of articles at Wikipedia, and as such, is attempting to use AFD to create policy. However, this is old news, because this is the exact same behavior that led to the recently expired sanctions. Seriously, the expectation of setting an expiration date on the sanctions is that, after the sanctions, the behavior would change in some meaningful way. The behavior has not, so the sanctions should return. The points made by bainer below may be 100% accurate, but not one of these statements excuses TTN for disrupting the process in this way. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 17:42, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Pixelface

TTN is now on a mission to purge the "video game and anime and manga character categories."[33] I brought up videogame characters[34] in the E&C2 Arbcom case [35], 7 days after Newyorkbrad changed the injunction to be only about TV characters [36]. On February 28, Newyorkbrad proposed the remedy that ultimately passed and that restricted TTN concerning articles about TV episodes and characters [37] — which was 3 weeks after I brought up the issue of videogame character articles. Category:Video game characters has 1,166 articles in it according to this tool, and Category:Anime and manga characters has 2,698 articles in it according to the same tool — for a total of 3,864 articles. Evaluating the articles in those categories may actually not be a bad idea. But I think TTN is the last editor who should do it. Is there not a point where a certain number of AFDs per day started by one user becomes disruptive?

TTN has created the articles Darkrai (a Pokemon), 5 LOCs List of Monsters, Inc. characters, List of Samurai Shodown Characters, List of Histeria! characters, List of Last Blade characters, List of One Piece characters, and 2 DAB pages Konk and Slowpoke. TTN appears to know a good deal about Dragonball, Naruto, and Pokemon, and I think TTN should continue to contribute to those areas. But the speed that TTN is nominating articles for deletion puts a huge burden on editors actually willing to do research — research that TTN himself seems absolutely unwilling to do.

In November 2007 in E&C1, TTN said[38] "I'm just going to be utilizing AfDs more often rather than revert warring." In E&C2, TTN was placed under editing restrictions for six months. During that time he was blocked twice for violating his restrictions. When those restrictions expired, TTN began (and continues) a mass deletion spree with cut-and-paste nominations, using Twinkle. A remedy proposed in E&C2 prohibiting the use of Twinkle to mass nominate articles for deletion was ignored by arbitrators.[39] If the articles in question are really so egregious that they need to be evaluated now, I'm confident that some other editor (one not involved in E&C1 or E&C2} can do it. For example, WikiProject Anime and manga and WikiProject Video games could be of help. You might say that other people are evaluating the articles, because TTN is nominating them for deletion, and other editors are discussing them, but a robot could make the same cut-and-paste nominations at the speed TTN is making them. There is no deadline, WP:FICT isn't even a guideline anymore, WP:PLOT never had consensus to be policy, and WP:N is in flux. Personally I think TTN has continued to fail to work "collaboratively and constructively with the broader community." I think TTN may have learned some bad habits from the suspected sockpuppet (and troll) Wiki-star at Talk:Majin Buu, the talk page of an article about a Dragonball character.

I have personally never seen TTN add any material with citation to any article (although I would happily welcome some evidence of that). It appears to me that someone, somewhere hurt TTN's feelings. Everything to him is "pointless" or "unnecessary." I don't know how old TTN is, but a troll was calling TTN a "bastard"[40] 7 days into TTN's editing and that may have had a big influence on TTN's future willingness to interact with other editors. I think TTN learned long ago that it was much easier for him to just do whatever he wanted without trying to talk with other editors — this is evident on early archives of his user talk page. So the effect is that of a steamroller. TTN is exhausting the community's patience. Although he does appear to have a handful of supporters.

A principle in E&C2 stated "It is inappropriate to use repetition or volume in order to present opponents with a fait accompli or to exhaust their ability to contest the change." I think the volume that TTN is producing new AFDs with Twinkle goes against that principle. I would support an indefinite extension of TTN's previous editing restrictions. I would first support another 6-month extension, but I fear that will only mean another appearance before ArbCom in six months. I think TTN may possibly be helped with some mentorship, which, in hindsight, should have been a remedy in E&C2. --Pixelface (talk) 19:55, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In response to Thebainer, "One has to begin with the observation that the community has failed to produce a notability guideline particularly for either television episodes or fictional characters", then why is TTN is acting like there is one? I've previously suggested that WP:EPISODE be turned into a notability guideline (since TTN was claiming it was anyway) and during E&C2 I asked Newyorkbrad to designate a place for the parties to "develop a generally accepted and applicable approach to the articles in question." I also asked about mass AFDs in March [41]. There was an RFC on WP:FICT in June and TTN did participate. But FICT failed to achieve consensus, and it was eventually marked an essay and fully protected. From there, Wikipedia:Notability/RFC:compromise was started. Before that, I suggested to Masem that a survey be started at WT:FICT. I've written up a draft of the survey and I still think it's a good idea. At one point, WP:FICT *was* based on AFD precedents, but the guideline gradually mutated into the mess it is now. It may be that Wikipedia needs a better system of creating and modifying policies and guidelines than the current free-for-all. --Pixelface (talk) 19:55, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Fordmadoxfraud

I edit a lot of comics articles, and I am aware that the community in which I operate, and that of many other media-related subjects, such as anime and television, have not entirely grokked the utter necessity for reliable sources in all that we do. However. This is not a failing that is remedied by wholesale removals of content or by alienating interested editors who need improvement. TTN might be knowledgeable about the subject, but until his production of references for articles (which, so far as I can tell, stands at exactly zero) comes even remotely close to his deletions, merges and nominations, he can only be seen as putting undue weight on the editors already working to improve and ref these articles.

Several editors have voiced fatigue at the return of this subject, of "another" TTN thread at arbcom, and have dismissed concerns raised against him as those of "vested interests" and "fan editors" who have their knives out for TTN because he culls their pet articles. The majority of TTN's nominations and merges are not horrendous bad calls, but that is not the point: when an editor merges and nominates for deletion with such hyperbolic frequency, and in only communities in which he offers absolutely no other participation--or even the barest word of discussion--that editor is a disruptive influence. Particularly when a pattern of behavior which yielded a six month block is entirely resumed with no change in nature or character.

Those who are suggesting that the debate here is bigger than TTN are also missing the point. TTN is not serving as a scapegoat for the community's utter failure to develop generally accepted standards of notability regarding fictional topics. TTN is an editor who refuses to offer even a token level of discourse with the affected communities and editors.Ford MF (talk) 20:23, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Response to VasileGaburici: Again no one is saying that the creation of redirects or the bringing of articles to AfD are, in themselves, bad things. These are both valuable services to the community at large. The people demurring here seem to be under the impression that people are saying "this guy redirects and deletes stuff", and therefore is bad, which makes the discussion about inclusionism/deletionism, which is an offramp to nowhere that effectively stymies any discussion of the effects of TTN's behavior. This is not the issue.

The issue is that TTN's entire, prolific (or whatever negative proliferation is) mode on Wikipedia is to remove content with a volume and frequency that effectively blocks the interested communities from responding intelligently to the concerns that he raises. If he can be said to be raising concerns at all, as his talkpage contributions are, putting it charitably, minimal. There is no conceivable way in which TTN can be said to be "working with" the interested communities at all. And to the people who demur "but these communities have a vested interest in the material and cannot be counted on to be impartial in these discussions", all I have to say is "duh". That's why communities exist in the first place. That doesn't mean it's okay to utterly ignore discourse with the communities, which is essentially what TTN does. You would be hard pressed to find, in TTN's voluminous contributions, much of any edits made to wikiproject spaces. His monomaniacal devotion to articles of a very narrow subject range and his utter refusal to address the concerns about his behavior made by a number of Wikipedia colleagues, constitute a pattern of continuous disruptive behavior. The fact that his disruption is caused via the processes of merging and deletion is a non-issue. Ford MF (talk) 18:30, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Wizardman

Seems like every other week TTN's back here, deserving or not. So I ask arbcom, make a ruling. Either permanently restrict his edits the way they were in E+C 2, or don't restrict his edits and bar future discussions to do so. It's going to have to be one extreme or the other just so we can finally put this to rest. A no consensus will see this continue again, and again, and again. Wizardman 21:24, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by VasileGaburici

Reading this new October 12 AN/I thread made me come here. I agree with the statements made by Stifle and MuZemike above. Ironically, the results of the AfDs initiated by TTN often are merge/redirect (see AN/I thread for examples), exactly what he was banned from doing by himself, except that after an AfD some community consensus is established for the article in question. So, in the absence of any guidelines to the contrary, I don't see disruption on behalf of TTN for bringing articles to the attention of the community, as Thebainer pointed out. On the other hand the editors (some of them admins) that are constantly asking for TTN's head are disruptive because they are trying to subvert the well established AfD process. VG ☎ 02:14, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by How do you turn this on

Since his restriction was lifted on 10 September, TTN has done not much more than create hundreds of XFDs for episode and character subjects, with his first being on the 11th. It seems to me he's sat out the ban fine, but the moment it's lifted, has reverted to the behaviour that started it in the first place. I, like Wizardman, ask ArbCom to make a more permanent ruling on this. It's not that the nominations in themselves are disruptive; it's the appearance that he's held it all in in the six months he was banned from doing it, and has made thousands of edits in the banned area since his ban was lifted, compared to June, July and August when he made significantly fewer edits. A temporary restriction clearly isn't working, and as Phil points out at the top, he doesn't seem particularly interested in discussing, which is really one of the bigger issues here. -- how do you turn this on 20:46, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Carcharoth

Just a quick statement in direct response to what Flonight said. I think your position is reasonable, until one remembers that deletion (and nomination for deletion) is quicker than article improvement. It is possible for a small rump of "deletionists" to focus on a particular area and overwhelm the efforts of those wanting to keep poor-quality articles and take the time to improve them. Equally, it is possible for those creating poor-quality articles to overwhelm the "improvement" and "deletion" camps. So what I think you have here is three camps:

(1) a fast rate of article production by "fans"
(2) an attempt by "deletionists" to stem the tide (foiled by local consensus by "fans")
(3) an attempt by "inclusionists" to keep articles and improve them.

Both (2) and (3) are being overwhelmed by (1), since that is the fastest process. (3) is being overwhelmed by both (1) and (2) as it is the slowest process. What is needed here is better management of the workflow. Either turn off (or reduce) the source of new articles (could have unintended consequences) or place strict limits on the rates at which processes (2) [deletion] and (3) [article improvement] take place. The point being that these two processes should not be responsive to each other, but they should both be responsive to the rate of article creation. i.e. If the rate of article creation goes up, the amount of deletion debates should go up (if the articles are good, they will be kept anyway). If the rate of article creation goes down, people should turn their attention to article improvement to allow the rate of article creation to recover. Otherwise, the logical end point is that the rate of article creation will eventually plateau, article deletions will carry on at the same rate (i.e. faster than article improvement) and the endpoint will be that the level of articles will stablise at a level that "deletionsists" would prefer, and not the level at which "inclusionists" would prefer. Eventually, as the good articles get written, the level will increase again to the "inclusionist" level. But a lot of goodwill will be lost in the process. Carcharoth (talk) 22:50, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Clerk notes

Arbitrator views and discussion

One has to begin with the observation that the community has failed to produce a notability guideline particularly for either television episodes or fictional characters. The best there is is the general fiction notability guideline. In the absence of any specific guidance, there are really no methods available to seek the input of the community at large about such articles other than deletion debates; indeed, that's the approach envisaged by the general guideline. On what has been presented here, TTN is not repeatedly nominating articles, nor being disruptive within the discussions. The Committee is being asked (again) to remedy the community's failure to produce some coherent approach to these articles by banning someone with a particular point of view about them, and I do not think that is right. --bainer (talk) 22:39, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Re Phil Sandifer, I should emphasise that I was discussing methods for seeking the input of the community at large, as opposed to obtaining what is usually called the "local consensus" (at the article talk page, or in this context also at the WikiProject page). Really the only alternative to attract a broad array of input other than a deletion debate is a request for comment on the article, and that is even less feasible. --bainer (talk) 12:46, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - Re Phil's "dismay": yes there have been two cases on this matter before, but you are not correct to say that this request relates to exactly the same issues. The evidence here does not indicate that the same types of behaviours that were at issue in the earlier cases (eg, edit warring) are being repeated, and I have already explained why I am of the view that merely nominating articles for deletion, in this subject area, without anything more, cannot be considered problematic. --bainer (talk) 22:49, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Re Pixelface, I agree. The project does need a better method for developing policies, but per Flo, that method is not de facto development by ArbCom ruling. --bainer (talk) 12:46, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is primarily a content dispute, so I reject further involvement as the situation now stands. As I noted in my recent comment on this topic on this page, TNN (nor any other user as far as it relates to this current situation) has not violated any policy or conducted himself in a manner that is disruptive. This is a classic case of one side of the dispute seeing disruptive editing where none exists because they have a difference of opinion with the involved editor. Rather I see this as a two sided issue, with some users thinking that loads of non-notable articles are started and that the Community has trouble keeping up with removing them so many AFDs/mergers are needed. Other users think that too many notable articles are being put up for deletion or merger discussion. Both sides in the conflict feel that the situation will be out of control if the other side is allowed to continue unchecked. As pointed out by bainer, since the Community has not reached consensus on a policy/guideline on the topic, we have repeated cycles of the issue causing content disputes. The Community needs to find a way to write this policy and not look to the Committee to do it through Committee ruling that causes a back door policy decision that one side can link to in future discussions. FloNight ♥♥♥ 16:06, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Request for extension: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Martinphi-ScienceApologist

Involved users

Shoemaker's Holiday (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), filing party
Martinphi (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (notification).

Statement by Shoemaker's Holiday

Martinphi is under an editing restriction because he " has engaged in a variety of disruptive behavior, including, but not limited to, using Wikipedia as a soapbox, threatening disruption of the project, and making deliberately provocative edits" (Finding of Fact #2, sans links). It is becoming increasingly clear that he has not yet learned proper Wikipedia behaviour. and, as the restriction is due to expire in November, I am asking that it be extended a further year.

For instance, here he claims that WP:NPOV/FAQ#Pseudoscience, a part of NPOV policy that has been part of policy since 2001 in nearly the same form as today [42] does not actually have any relevance, and does not apply to articles on Parapsychology. He then attacked everyone who upheld the policy, declared intent to force changes through,[43] then leapt over to the policy page and attempted to delete the phrasing he dislikes.[44]

Here is a recent Arbitration enforcement thread about his editing of policy.

I think that Martinphi's statements in the Paranormal Request for clarification a bit below this one are also relevant. In the face of every arbitrator clearly stating that the finding of fact does not set out an explicit content ruling, but was simply an effort to understand the party's points, he continues to insist that the arbcom, in fact, made a content ruling, and that he should be able to use it to push his point of view.

Martinphi has a very bad case of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, which makes him very frustrating to work with. The Arbcom restriction somewhat mediates that, but I don't think he has demonstrated any real improvement in the last year that would justify the restriction's removal. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 03:22, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would also suggest that he be banned from editing policy. Besides the examples from above, back in April, he specifically admitted to editing WP:CIVIL in order to better use it to attack ScienceApologist. [45] [46]. (Background, abridged: he was adding words he had seen ScienceApologist and other people he disliked using to the Civility policy as "actionable" examples of incivility. [47] [48] [49]) Between this, today's editing of WP:NPOV/FAQ (described above), and the more recent WP:NPOV incident (courtesy duplicate link), I don't think he can be trusted to edit policy. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 05:56, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Kww

Wanted to concur that MartinPhi does not seem to have learned the lessons that the original editing restriction was intended to convey. It seems to have driven him towards behaviour that is even more damaging: the constant editing of policy pages to slowly transform them into polices that favor his views. I would fully support an extension of the current editing restriction, and I think an editing restriction on policy pages should be considered.—Kww(talk) 17:09, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by source-verifying Coppertwig

In Shoemaker's Holiday's (SH) statement above, some diffs SH gives do not appear to support the statements SH makes.

SH gives this diff, saying "here he claims that WP:NPOV/FAQ#Pseudoscience... does not actually have any relevance, and does not apply to articles on Parapsychology." I do not see any such claim, or anything reasonably similar, in that diff. The diff is actually a diff of 7 revisions by more than one editor. In that diff, the words "relevant" and "apply" appear, but only within comments by Shoemaker's holiday that appear in that diff, not in any comments by Martinphi; except where Martinphi says, "Please don't mis-apply it": which seems to me to express clear intentions to support, not discard, policy.

Shoemaker's Holiday then said "He then attacked everyone who upheld the policy, declared intent to force changes through" and gave this diff: [50] I don't see anything in that diff that I would call an attack. I didn't see any statement by Martinphi that he intended to force any particular change through; instead, he was talking about more than one possible outcome of this difficult situation; he also mentioned others "editwar[ring]" and "push[ing]", but did not use those verbs in any statements about his own actions.

I contend that participation in policy discussions by those who openly discuss the way the policy is used at articles they edit is a frequent, accepted and productive part of normal policy discussion. Just to illustrate this, here is a comment in a recent discussion at WT:NOR which appears to be an example of this: [51]

There are difficult questions involved in how to apply policies to fringe topics. I think much discussion will be needed to further develop the policies in this area; it won't be easy, and will require input from editors with a variety of POVs. I commend Martinphi for addressing some of these difficult questions. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 20:00, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Ludwigs2

Concur with Coppertwig: the diffs Shoemaker provided simply don't support the argument that Shoemaker is trying to make. I know little about the circumstances that brought these editing restrictions into play, but I see no reason to extend them from what's been given here, and certainly no reason to increase them by imposing Shoemaker's suggestion of a policy editing ban.

It's clear that Martin and Shoemaker disagree about some fundamental points of policy, and it's equally clear that neither is shy about stating his side of the disagreement. That's a good thing: vocal disagreement - so long as it's sincere and well-mannered - can only make better policy. Casting disagreement of this nature as disruptive misses the point of policy discussions entirely. --Ludwigs2 02:33, 20 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by other user

Clerk notes

Arbitrator views and discussion

@@ Line 153: / Line 153: @@
 ----
-=== Madonna Blond Ambition Tour Title Dispute ===
-'''Initiated by ''' [[User:Alkclark|Alkclark]] ([[User talk:Alkclark|talk]]) '''at''' 16:31, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
-==== Involved parties ====
-<!-- use {{admin|username}} if the party is an administrator -->
-*{{userlinks|Alkclark}}, ''filing party''
-*{{userlinks|Dancefloor royalty}}
-*{{userlinks|KM*hearts*MC}}
-*{{userlinks|Jwad}}
-<!-- The editor filing the case should be included as a party for purposes of notifications. -->
-;Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request`
-<!-- All parties must be notified that the request has been filed, immediately after it is posted, and confirmation posted here. -->
-*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jwad&diff=prev&oldid=245921890 JWAD]
-*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:KM*hearts*MC&diff=prev&oldid=245922036 KM*hearts*MC]
-*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Dancefloor_royalty&diff=prev&oldid=245921652 Dancefloor royalty]
-;Confirmation that other steps in [[Wikipedia:dispute resolution|dispute resolution]] have been tried
-<!-- Identify prior attempts at dispute resolution here, with links/diffs to the page where the resolution took place. If prior dispute resolution has not been attempted, the reasons for this should be explained in the request for arbitration -->
-*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Blond_Ambition_World_Tour&diff=244553258&oldid=244553211  Link 1]
-*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Blond_Ambition_World_Tour&diff=245710306&oldid=244553713 Link 2]
-==== Statement by [[User:Alkclark|Alkclark]] ====
-Requesting arbitration for Madonna's [[Blond Ambition World Tour]] title dispute. This appears to be a "battle" between editors [[User:Jwad|Jwad]], [[User:Dancefloor royalty|Dancefloor royalty]] and [[User: KM*hearts*MC|KM*hearts*MC]]. Editors appears to be yelling at each other instead on coming to a consensus on this matter. This matter seems to be getting worse by the day. I believe an administrator needs to step in and come to conclusion to this problem to avoid any further confusion or disputes. [[User:Alkclark|Alkclark]] ([[User talk:Alkclark|talk]]) 16:31, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
-==== Statement by uninvolved '''[[User:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFFF00;background-color: #0000FF;'>MBisanz</span>]]''' ====
-Without judging the exact issue, it seems like this dispute would be better suited for [[Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts]], a content or user conduct [[WP:RFC]] or [[WP:MEDIATION]] of some sort.  It doesn't seem to be at the point yet where arbitrator intervention is required. '''[[User:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFFF00;background-color: #0000FF;'>MBisanz</span>]]''' <sup>[[User talk:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFA500;'>talk</span>]]</sup> 18:03, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
-==== Comment by uninvolved Ncmvocalist ====
-The parties can try [[Wikipedia:Mediation]] as a first resort, but this will require each party to agree to mediation. If parties do not agree to mediation (and the dispute is still unresolved), I'd personally encourage that someone open an article RFC. Article RFC is likely to work best in getting more input from outside editors. If the dispute is still not resolved, and there are still conduct problems either during or after the article RFC, then other steps such as [[WP:WQA|Wikiquette alerts]], [[WP:RFC/U|user conduct RFC]], or administrator/community intervention may be required. But I don't see this as a dispute that will require arbitration, and it is definitely not needed at this point in time.
-Article RFC should be tried. [[User:Ncmvocalist|Ncmvocalist]] ([[User talk:Ncmvocalist|talk]]) 06:03, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
-==== Statement by {Party 2} ====
-==== Clerk notes ====
-:''This area is used for notes by non-recused Clerks.''
-==== Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (0/5/0/0) ====
-* '''Reject'''. Premature and appears to be primarily a content dispute. Arbitration cases are the last step in the [[Wikipedia:Dispute resolution]] process and primarily deal with editor conduct problems. Likely this dispute can be resolved by getting more editors involved. [[User:FloNight|FloNight]][[User talk:FloNight|&#9829;&#9829;&#9829;]] 18:50, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
-* '''Decline'''. The question presented in this case appears to be whether the correct title of [[Madonna (singer)|Madonna]]'s 1990 concert tour was "the Blond Ambition Tour", "the Blonde Ambition Tour", or "the Blond Ambition World Tour". There also appears to be a secondary dispute as to whether two sets of two consecutive songs were sung in concert separately or as [[medley (music)|medley]]s. These are content disputes, and the advice offered by my fellow arbitrator FloNight and by MBisanz should point the parties toward a solution to this dispute. The parties should bear in mind that if the tour was known by more than one name at the time, there may not be a single "correct" answer to their dispute; it may be necessary to name the article with the most commonly used name, with the article itself reflecting that other names were occasionally used, if this is the case. Redirects can take readers from any variant of the tour's name that may ever have been used, to the name agreed upon as the article title. But I caution the parties that a trip to [[WP:LAME]] may await them if they are unable promptly and civilly to come to a consensus or otherwise agreed-upon resolution of their dispute. As the parties seem to share, if nothing else, a common interest, I urge them to resolve the petty issue and devote their energies instead to the creation of additional content in their area of interest. [[User:Newyorkbrad|Newyorkbrad]] ([[User talk:Newyorkbrad|talk]]) 23:18, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
-* Reject, premature, content dispute. --[[User:Jpgordon|jpgordon]]<sup><small>[[User talk:Jpgordon|&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710;]]</small></sup> 16:02, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
-* Reject. Pure content dispute. [[User:Sam Blacketer|Sam Blacketer]] ([[User talk:Sam Blacketer|talk]]) 22:44, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
-* Reject, premature and a content dispute, per above. --[[User:Thebainer|bainer]]&nbsp;([[User_talk:Thebainer|talk]]) 23:11, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
-----
 =<span id="REQ" />Clarifications and other requests=