Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Lightbreather/Kaffeeklatsch: Difference between revisions

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User:Lightbreather/Kaffeeklatsch

Against the spirit of wikipedia, A place that excludes editors based on anything violates the idea of an encyclopedia that anyone can edit. By all means create a place for woman but it is against the spirit to say "only this type of editor can join" RetΔrtist (разговор) 00:58, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. For the time being, it serves as an experiment based on a discussion at the Wikimedia IdeaLab re a space for women, similar to spaces used on other projects (other languages). This subspace in my user space does not prevent any editor from editing in any space beside this subspace. I am replying from my phone and will return when I am next at my desk. Lightbreather (talk) 01:11, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Lightbreather: That discussion was, first of all, at meta, so any consensus found there does not apply here. Grognard Chess (talk) Ping when replying 03:46, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose An analogy suggested at the idealab, which may be flawed in general but valid in userspace, was that a women-only discussion forum would be like a table at a cafe, where a group of women are seated, talking. The claim was that a man shouldn't necessarily expect to be free to draw up a chair and join the group, as the group has a reasonable expectation of privacy unless they invite someone to join. In the context of the idealab discussion I had doubts about this reasoning because it seemed to me a discussion forum on an open wiki has no such expectation of privacy, however a page in a user's userspace does seem to have the right, at owner's option, to an expectation of privacy similar to that of a table at a cafe: those talking at the table should expect to be overheard, but might limit who is allowed to join the discussion.
For those who prefer citation of policy, here's a relevant passage from WP:User pages#Ownership and editing of user pages: "Policy does not prohibit users, whether registered or unregistered users, from removing comments from their own talk pages, although archiving is preferred." Lightbreather has been polite about the experiment (not even, I believe, even removing comments considered out-of-place but merely moving them to a different page), so imho civility and AGF are satisfied as well, and I don't think the wider Wikipedian community should object. --Pi zero (talk) 03:17, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

To counter on the terms of your analogy, I'd like to say that you have no right to force the cafe to provide you with a table. And also, a cafe is for the consumption of food and beverages, as well as discussion. An appropriate analogy, would be a chess cafe, a place where people come to play chess amongst each other at the tables. If people at the table are discussing backgammon, while not actually playing chess, the owner might ask them to leave, and ask them to go to a backgammon cafe, a place more appropriate for discussion of backgammon. Grognard Chess (talk) Ping when replying 03:32, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Pi zero: And also, to quote WP:User pages, it says that "if the community lets you know that they would rather you delete some content from your user space, you should consider doing so - such content is only permitted with the consent of the community." Policy does not specifically prevent removal of user talk page comments, but community consensus holds ultimate judgement over userspace. The community can come to a consensus for whatever reason it wants to on whether to delete this user page, as long as the consensus doesn't violate any other policies. Grognard Chess (talk) Ping when replying 03:42, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sure the wider community could, but seems to me it's being done civilly, appears it's being done in good faith (I don't think this appearance even requires assuming good faith), and since it's in userspace, I'd think private conversations would be more usual to allow than to disallow, so that it's not against the spirit of Wikipedia to allow it. Hence, as I said, I don't think the wider community should object. (It's not even the content being objected to, but rather the conversants.) ---Pi zero (talk) 03:59, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and to reiterate another point, afaik the material wasn't even removed as such, just moved to a different page. --Pi zero (talk) 04:04, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The analogy is probably overtaxed by now anyway, but I might note that the analogy doens't extend very gracefully to likening Wikipedia to a chess cafe because, following the analogy, it's not a cafe at all; only certain side areas of Wikipedia are used for semi-private tables at all (userspace), and those areas also tend to have relatively greater flexibility of topic (not unlimited, of course, but in this case the intent seems to be that the discussion be about Wikipedia, so that calling it off-topic would be a bit of a stretch). Oh, and since you ask it, ping:Chess. --Pi zero (talk) 04:28, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. I don't see any harm in this, nor any actual pointer to what policy it violates. The fact that people think the problem of "but it's exclusionary" is a bigger deal than the problem of Wikipedia's discussion venues being, at the very very most good-faith, implicitly biased towards a discussion style men are sociologically conditioned for, is a really good argument for its existence. Ironholds (talk) 04:47, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
~~Delete~~. Strong neutral without prejudice. I really can't see any reason why this should exist, and there are other places that can handle any discussion that could take place in the kaffeeklatsch better than in the kaffeeklatsch. Content dispute? Talk page of the articles. Behavior dispute? ANI, AN, civility noticeboard, user talk of the offending editor. Advice? Help desk, teahouse, #wikipedia-en-help, the {{help me}} template, even! Off topic discussion? Take it to an off topic forum. Discussion about Wikipedia? Village pump. There is literally nothing in the kaffeeklatsch that could not be better handled by another place already in existence on Wikipedia. It's like buying a swiss army knife when you already have a kit of full sized tools that you use often. The swiss army knife has a bunch of worse versions of the tools you already have, so there's no practical reason to use it, unless you don't use the full sized tools enough to justify maintaining them. And also, the hypothetical swiss army knife only works on around 10% of objects. Grognard Chess (talk) Ping when replying 05:13, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Show me that this page can do something that isn't redundant. I believe it can't do anything that isn't already covered by something else, but show me how this can do something other than something falling under WP:NOTSOCIALNETWORK that isn't redundant. Grognard Chess (talk) Ping when replying 23:16, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

10% that aren't covered by the toolkit. You may need a less-terrible analogy, here. Ironholds (talk) 18:25, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Ironholds: Tell me something that doesn't fall under WP:NOTSOCIALNETWORK that this project page can cover that can't be covered elsewhere. Grognard Chess (talk) Ping when replying 23:13, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Just off the top of my head? everything. The places you've brought up are all places that are perfectly good places to go if we assume for a second that they are consistently accepting places that aren't drastically biased towards a form of interaction which is anathema to people who aren't from a demography sociologically conditioned to believe that might makes right. Unfortunately they are places run by, using processes written by, and populated by, people from that background, me included - and if you're reading this and about to come back with "but they're perfectly pleasant, non-intimidatory and non-adversarial places", please keep context in mind and realise that we're on a page consisting of 40kb of plaintext, all dedicated to an adversarial discussion of whether a user gets to run an experiment on improving how we interact on-wiki and how systemically biased our content and contributors are, in their userspace. A discussion that has so far featured off-wiki canvassing and harassment from the sort of people who populate KotakuInAction, and evaluations from users in good standing that any such experiment is "blatantly discriminative drivel", equivalent to tolerating racist bigotry, and "serves no purpose except to cause more division and disruption". This MfD, if nothing else (and there is a lot else) is a good argument for such a space being a good thing.

You can debate whether it's a good idea, sure - but this is a userspace experiment. If this MfD closes as keep, nothing is going to blow up. The wiki will not shut down. Indeed, I hope that it marks the start of a transition to an environment in which we actually recognise the biases that we have as individuals and a community, and work first to educate ourselves about the arguments in this space and then to, if not overcome those biases, at least stay quiet in situations where we know they come into play. I personally don't know how I feel about this as a safe-space (it's public, and could act as a single target for misogynists), and I've debated how I feel about the concept of gender-specific arenas in the past. But I stopped having those debates with myself when I realised that I was precisely the wrong demographic to be making any calls about whether such a space was necessary: I'm a middle-class white dude. I played life on easy mode.

TL;DR: you're asking the wrong person the wrong question. Let's start deferring to the people in the arena for expertise on what is necessary, not shouting from the peanut gallery. And on that note, I'm going to disengage from this MfD so I don't drown out precisely those people with my walls-of-text. Ironholds (talk) 23:29, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, for now. I wouldn't object to a deletion request if the page were dormant or clearly being used for non-encyclopedic purposes, but it seems a little hasty considering that it's just getting off the ground. Let's come back to this in 6 months or so and see if the discussion has proven meaningful for supporting and retaining editors. Shii (tock) 06:31, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Right here. I predict it'll either be inactive, or a hub of unencyclopedic content. But who knows? It's had meta-discussions so far, and nothing else except for a discussion on cis and trans, which before now I thought was about fats. Grognard Chess (talk) Ping when replying 23:26, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - it's not actively harming the encyclopedia anyway. So you say it is exclusionary, huh? The entire environment of Wikipedia has been proven time and time again to be a hostile environment for women, what's the problem with a women-centered discussion? Many other areas on Wikipedia have criteron for membership; AfC requires a certain number of registration days and AWB requires 500 edits. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia that anyone can edit but this user subpage is not preventing anyone from editing articles (or even the subpage itself). In fact it is an alpha-test-phase version of a space that may very well in the future encourage women to edit more on Wikipedia, just like women's colleges in the real world. There exists a reason why there are women's colleges in the world, but very few women's colleges: Because women need it. This page is not even hidden to the public. Any and all people can open up the page, read what's going on, and not even have to have an account or join. There is no closed door here, no only-women-can-read. In fact, men can choose to edit this page; there is no technical restriction from doing so - evident by the nominator's ability to send this to MfD. The only reason a man would chose not to edit the page would be out of respect for Lightbreather, because it is in her userspace, and we respect people's userspaces like that.

The nominator states that he is willing to allow for a space for women to exist, but how can a women's space be created if men are allowed to be present? How can there be a true women's space when men are present - wouldn't that just become a place for humans instead of women? I find this proposition confusing and illogical. How can us women editors have a supportive women's environment if men are allowed to butt in (and we are not allowed to keep them out or even respectfully ask them to avoid commenting?) It is impossible for it to become a true "women's space" when men are there.

Finally, one may argue that it adds no benefit to the project, but what's wrong with it neutrally just sitting there in a userspace subpage, then? There are no policies linked in the nomination to advocate for deletion. We do have things like the Gender Gap Task Force for these kinds of related things, but it is hardly a women's only space and it has been touched by Arb so it is obviously a contentious place. It is definitely not similar to a Teahouse-way of interacting with women editors. The Teahouse is for interacting with newbies, the Kaffeklatsch can be for interacting with the very small percentage of women editors that are on the project. Those who want to discuss the uselessness of things can first investigate the numerous WikiProjects that are either defunct or inactive, and then ask themselves why those have not been subject to MfD. It is ironic that Chess above mentions the Swiss Army knife working around 10% of objects, because... well... Wikipedia only has about... 10% of women, so of course it would only benefit them! Now, the real question is: What percentage of women would this benefit? — kikichugirl ^speak up! 07:23, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I'm flatly unconvinced that the space presents any real disruption or harm to building an encyclopedia. Not convinced the space is a slippery slope of any kind. This seems like a good time to remind folks that Wikimania 2014 (and probably previous years) had a meeting slot intended for editors who identified as women. Was it disruptive or did it present harm to the conference participants to learn about and help improve Wikimedia and other open-source projects? Nope. I suspect that the people like me who could not go to it thought, "Oh hey, I'm really glad they have that because they're bringing perspectives to the table that I probably don't have, and I appreciate more diversity in perspectives rather than fewer." I also suspect the event allowed a lot of women to meet and start sharing, building, and implementing ideas over the past six months. What is the benefit of prematurely shooting down a space that has the potential to do exactly the same thing? With that said, I agree with Shii, if the space does not facilitate constructive discussions over the next several months, we could consider marking the space as historical (I don't think it's necessary to delete the space). I, JethroBT ^{drop me a line} 07:53, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Keep for now. While there exists the potential for this page to become disruptive by holding content discussions there, for example, this is currently not happening and no harm is being done. As long as the page is well-managed I don't foresee any immediate problems. I would oppose moving to Wikipedia: space but where it is now is fine. BethNaught (talk) 08:38, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Delete blatantly discriminative drivel. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 09:02, 1 February 2015 (UTC) Adding to rationale that WP:NOTSOCIALNETWORK such as [[1]] Hell in a Bucket (talk) 21:38, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
OH NOES, THE WIMMINZ IS OPPRESSING US DISCRIMINATORILY! Whatever will we do? I guess we could take having 90% of the population in a consensus- and voting-driven environment as a consolation prize, but the fight isn't over. Never Forget. Ironholds (talk) 18:26, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

And this is precisely why I don't take shit like this serious. I think that the more they wail about an unequal footing and then do things to actually enhance that unequal footing is a whole circus that is fun to watch but short on common sense or anything coming close to improving the issues. Hypocritical is what I like to call it, women are equal if they choose to be, no man can take that away from them. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 18:30, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Really? Because they certainly seem to be trying to. What use is this theoretical equality of yours when there's no practical equality? When we have (pardon the language) shitshows like the GGTF or Gamergate cases, in which it's made abundantly clear that a vast amount of off-wiki coordination, harassment and canvassing occurs in any situation where someone has the temerity to suggest there might be a problem? There's an entire subreddit dedicated to this stuff, including a thread aimed at this precise proposal. Does that sound like something that can be overcome by just trying harder? And does it seem at all cognitively dissonant to you that you're saying that men and women are fundamentally equal on the projects, but you only expect one of those groups to have to actively throw effort into maintaining their equal footing? Theoretical equality looks like nothing explicitly saying "no [people in subgroup] allowed". Practical equality means people in that subgroup not having to put disproportionate effort - or indeed, any effort - in. Ironholds (talk) 18:42, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think that part of this scenario is the originator is part of the problem, get caught in lies, manipulation and various other activites and yes you are likely to garner a following. Let me understand, women only groups are ok, what about men only groups? Those must by extension be ok too....see the problem? It enhances the issue and does nothing to ameloriate it, it actually widens that divide. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 19:04, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

And what about White History Month?! You're acting like the only thing here is a "divide"; as if, if people simply engage hard enough, all the problems will magically melt away. Ironholds (talk) 19:24, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think that it's ridiculous to have any history month, history is history, it's not white, black, purple yellow or whatever, it's history. In regards to off wiki harrassment let's not delude ourselves that women don't do the same things, [[2]] I wonder if the originator of this pledge is on there? Hell in a Bucket (talk) 20:02, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

~~Weak keep~~Delete It may or not be against the "spirit" of Wikipedia but I don't see it currently contravening any policy (and I don't see any cited here). Of course, it has the potential to become disruptive and issues such as WP:CANVASS need to be kept an eye on so a "keep" is without prejudice to a possible later switch to "delete" On a personal note, I very much hope it stays because what's appeared on it so far has been the most fantastically hilarious entertainment. The level of unconscious self-parody is priceless. DeCausa (talk) 09:11, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Switched to delete. NE Ent (below) has pointed out a spdcific policy (albeit WMF rather than community) that this contravenes. As a result I don't see that this is tenable. DeCausa (talk) 20:48, 4 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Keep why should a user not be free to say who's welcome in a certain user space. --C.Koltzenburg (talk) 10:41, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There's no absolute rights for the user. WP:UP#OWN: "Traditionally Wikipedia offers wide latitude to users to manage their user space as they see fit. However, pages in user space belong to the wider community. They are not a personal homepage, and do not belong to the user. They are part of Wikipedia, and exist to make collaboration among editors easier." DeCausa (talk) 10:56, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Keep It's unclear why this is being nominated. (Just kidding. It's all too clear.) I think it's silly to nominate it for deletion as it's a fairly inactive and new page, and is not posing any problems I can see. Despite what combative hand-wringers may claim, there's nothing to justify its deletion yet. It's also being targeted by off-site campaigning via Reddit (yawn). Ongepotchket (talk) 12:29, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comment While I can't support this by adding a "keep" vote, WP:IDLI isn't a reason to delete. the Wikipedia:User pages guideline says that users may remove content from their user pages except for a few specific items (this would be clearer if it were a talk page, where the guideline specifically mentions that a user can remove unwelcome posts, and can ask certain users not to post, and Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines says "User talk pages are almost never deleted"). The wording of the guideline is unclear (in my opinion) about whether this includes user subpages, or only a user's main page and talk page, and so it seems that at this time the page isn't contravening the guideline.—Anne Delong (talk) 14:55, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. As I understand it, the page was set up as an experiment related to the larger IdeaLab proposal for a women's space. It's doing no harm and I can't see any good reason to delete it. Sarah (SV) ^(talk) 18:48, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Delete This is a blatantly sexist page, If this were a page where only men were allowed to edit it would have been deleted without question. Pepsiwithcoke (talk) 19:53, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Note; this user has made few or no contributions outside of this area. Ironholds (talk) 20:05, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Seems to have been blocked for harassment quite recently as well. Why am I not surprised. Ongepotchket (talk) 21:15, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

So that means my opinion is invalid? Pepsiwithcoke (talk) 20:35, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Any reason why we ought to take the opinion of someone who relished the idea of killing a female by stabbing her in the throat with a pen seriously? Eric Corbett 20:10, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Who are you talking about? Pepsiwithcoke (talk) 20:36, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Well, you essentially have two options there. One, you can assume that I am not, in fact, the same eejit that I was...cripes, must be around four years ago now - in which case, your rhetorical question is moot. Or two, you can persist in believing that I am, in fact, the same eejit that I was around four years ago, in which case, here's a rhetorical question right back at you: how does it feel to be more socially conservative than that sort of person? Ironholds (talk) 21:05, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Men are not technically or even physically restricted from editing this page. Anyone can literally click edit because it's not sysop-protected. The truth is men and women are still not equal. It is not sexist, it is actively fighting sexism - and in order to do that, sexism must go away. Men can still read. Men can even click "edit" (but since it's Lightbreather's userspace, the men will probably be reverted). Please point to some indicator that there is sexism on this page that is actively harming the project, because I am not seeing it. — kikichugirl ^speak up! 21:36, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This may be about a userpage but if it is allowed to stay it sets a precedent for the aforementioned and blatantly sexist "WikiProject Women" and should therefor be deleted, Unless a "WikiProject Men", That only allows Men to join is allowed this is completely unfair. Pepsiwithcoke (talk) 22:29, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. I recall that in the not too distant past a project that selected membership on the basis of editors having written a GA/FA was deleted. The argument was that every page should be open to everyone to contribute to. What's the difference here? Eric Corbett 20:00, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That actually still exists, at user:TallNapoleon/Association of Established Editors. 188.29.165.37 (talk) 20:10, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - I have had reservations about this "experiment" since I noticed participation being canvassed by the user on a number of other user talk pages; I'm surprised it wasn't nominated for deletion earlier. As a female, I find the perceived "necessity" for a "safe place" for females sexist, unnecessary and pointy - we are all editors, regardless of gender. The page serves no purpose except to cause more division and disruption. SagaciousPhil - Chat 21:08, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep- does not contravene any policy. Plus, it's in userspace. --L235 (talk) As a courtesy, please ping me when replying. 21:35, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. I don't especially like the idea of "pledges" and I worry about presenting this as a safe space in an environment that is inherently "unsafe" in the sense that's meant here. But it's absurd to look at a userpage whose audience is 10% of the Wikipedia editor base and react by screaming "no fair!" because the other 90% will feel excluded. If this creates division and disruption, it's due to precisely the same types of behavior that caused the desire for this page in the first place. Opabinia regalis (talk) 22:20, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. This looks like a good-faith attempt to address issues around the gender gap, and for women editors to network (for want of a better word) with other women editors. Sometimes the testosterone-driven nature of Wikipedia can make people (and not just women!) uncomfortable, so I can see the sense in having a dedicated area where the tone is a bit lower. I would be concerned if the page were being used for substantive discussion of policy or anything else that needs input from more than one demographic of the community, but a place for people to discuss things informally is not disruptive to the encyclopaedia. For as long as it continues to be undisruptive (if that's even a word!) and to serve some legitimate purpose towards the enhancement of the encyclopaedia, we should keep it around. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 00:49, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Keep It's in userspace and its only in its earliest days. I think the comments about "Why isn't there male only pages," miss a point. Nobody's ever (I think, correct if wrong) expressed the desire or need for male only wiki-forums, except when something like this comes up and they do it to prove a point. People actually feel a need for a female only space on Wikipedia, and while I'm unsure about the whole Wikiproject Women idea, I think something in userspace is a good solution for now. My main worry is that it could get quite nasty if people start ignoring the rule about not speaking negatively about non members (I like the broad way the rule is set out to avoid loop holing though). @Lightbreather: Could you perhaps put something on the pledge page, noting that if someone is feeling attacked by members of the forum, they can leave a message on your talk page? Bosstopher (talk) 09:30, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I have no opinion on whether or not this should be kept or deleted, but I do have worries about possible POV editing from the group associated with this page. If kept, it should at least be independently monitored to ensure there's no efforts arising from it that would lead to another arbcom case like the recent GGTF and GamerGate ones. // coldacid (talk|contrib) 13:09, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Delete I would be more "okayish" (barely) with this if this policy were applied equally, but that would also mean tolerating racist wiki editors who want Whites-only editing of their page etc., and I think that would fly in the face of the Wikipedia principle that everyone ought to be able to edit the encyclopedia. It's in the very tagline of the Wikipedia icon. 71.185.74.31 (talk) 15:27, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Delete or ignore: Clearly against WMF policy The Wikimedia Foundation prohibits discrimination against current or prospective users and employees on the basis of race, color, gender, religion, national origin, age, disability, sexual orientation, or any other legally protected characteristics. So delete because it's against policy, or ignore because we tend to give wide latitude to user pages, and the fact that no one is editing it despite Lightbreather's canvassing for participation actually sends a more powerful message than deletion. NE Ent 16:44, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Untrue. The WMF nondiscrimination policy states that it applies to all Wikimedia projects, meaning Wikipedia, Wiktionary, Commons, and so on - not individual user pages. A woman-only user subpage would not prohibit anyone from editing on WMF projects. Lightbreather (talk) 17:04, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The user spaces are all part of the Wikipedia project, and don't "belong" to the individual users. (WP:UP#OWN) By logical deduction, discrimination on any page in the project is discrimination in the project.—Anne Delong (talk) 20:13, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

meta: in-principle debates usually show how rules are made to work (and kept up) that have been defined by a majority of people. Now let's do a small thought experiment: Imagine that the Kaffeeklatsch page is a lovely place to contribute to. Then imagine that any other page you in principle wish to contribute to is actually a place you do not wish to be on because the climate among users is unbearable to you. Next step: Please phrase the implicit rules that keep me off that page and make them explicit here. Let's see what everyone might come up with. --C.Koltzenburg (talk) 17:35, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NOTASOCIALNETWORK comes to mind. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 17:39, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Well then, given the thought experiment setting, why does just this one come to your mind, Hell in a Bucket? --C.Koltzenburg (talk) 16:01, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The section please introduce yourself is a forum for discussion not related to building an encylopedia. It's social in nature with some ambiguous goals. I think frankly it is an attempt to set up her own quasi GGTF since her compatriots were banned. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 16:07, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - WP:POINT at its finest. Non-disruptive user-space project attempting to assist an incredibly small part of the community. In no way falls afoul of policy. Panyd^{The muffin is not subtle} 18:24, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. And I write this as someone bitterly opposed to Lightbreather's https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/WikiProject_Women, for all the reasons everyone above has stated; it's a horrible, discriminatory idea, that sets a terrible precedent. The difference here is that this is unofficial, unenforced, and user space. We have traditionally allowed people wider latitude with their own user page, including asking people not to post on their user talk page, etc. Here, Lightbreather has asked 90% of all editors not to post on this page in her user space. Not friendly, but should be allowed. --GRuban (talk) 19:08, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure you know this, but for clarity, men are only kept away from the Kaffeeklatsch page and haven't been banned from her whole space. BethNaught (talk) 19:25, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That's clear. Since I wrote as much ("this page in her user space"), I do, in fact know this. Since you wrote as much, it's also clear that I'm sure you know that I know this. Therefore, for clarity, I'm sure that you're sure that I'm sure. Clear? Surely clear? Clearly sure? Sure. --GRuban (talk) 21:35, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Weak Keep. I originally considered nominating this for MFD myself and then thought better of it. Like GRuban, I am adamantly opposed to WikiProject Women, but I'm willing to see how this goes in userspace, since there is precedent for editors requesting that others not post on their talk pages. As a subpage in userspace, this should get more latitude. If time shows that this page is used for a) social media, b) editor-bashing or male-bashing, c) content discussions (beyond discussions of lists of articles that need to be created) or d) coordinated efforts to push a POV, then I will lead the way in bringing it back up for deletion. I have my doubts that this will be useful at all (the people most advocating for it aren't using it), and perhaps the creator will realize that after some time passes. Karanacs (talk) 19:30, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
+1 Shii (tock) 21:21, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
keep Initially I was leaning to 'del' as divisive, but reading some male arguments in this page, I understand why women would want to insulate themselves a bit. While Wikipedia is definitely way more civilized than most open forums ("open" I mean without dictatorial moderation), still women do have more sensitivity to the tone of the message. Unfortunately careless male parlance seems to be ingrained in culture. Once I watched a youtube of a TV discussion between a Muslim Islamic scholar and an atheist scholar, and I was appalled at how the latter, a leading and respected scholar allowed himself a dismissive, nonchalant tone, bordering with rudeness. Staszek Lem (talk) 23:42, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I highly encourage you to amend to read that some women have more sensitivity to the tone of the message - just as some men do. This is not a characteristic of all women. Karanacs (talk) 15:05, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I did not write "all women". I wrote "women". Like in: "women have higher life expectancy than men". And if you sincerely think the word "some" would be a life saver, I highly encourage you to review some Wikipedia advice, starting with WP:WEASEL (unless you were simply ironic). Staszek Lem (talk) 03:39, 4 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I think there is a profound disconnect between the stated purpose of the Kaffeeklatsch and its implementation. The apparent purpose is to have a page where female editors are not exposed to incivility. If you want to exclude incivility, just explicitly exclude incivility. After all, women are perfectly capable of being uncivil. Specifically prohibit questioning the veracity of anyone's claim of having experienced sexual harassment, as that seems to be the majority of what you want to avoid. (To prevent abuse of this protection, naming a perpetrator would need to also be forbidden.) Excluding a gender creates a combative atmosphere from the start, but simply being a page of nice people makes a very unappealing target for trolls. Rhoark (talk) 00:23, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The community as a whole excludes incivility. The problem is that what is uncivil is fuzzy; there is no boolean "civil/uncivil" test, and it is perfectly possible to be simultaneously polite and highly disruptive. If the test was based on something as subjective as civility, the result wouldn't be a well-functioning system, it would be a system immediately gamed by the people pointed at this MfD off-wiki, and those people on-wiki who both oppose it and haven't yet reached emotional maturity, to create drama and then, on any backlash, immediately accelerate it to AN/I and suchlike in an effort to cast a fog. Call me cynical, but if the community could be trusted to appropriately deal with civility, and civility was the only concern here, the proposal would never have been made. Given that it has, at least 50% of your premise is moot. Ironholds (talk) 02:45, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
A user can moderate their own user space to a different standard of civility than the project as a whole, which is the point of doing anything at all. I'm not so naive as to propose wiki admin processes as a tool to maintain civility. If the purpose of the space is not just enhanced civility, it becomes much more difficult to assume good faith. Rhoark (talk) 15:18, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This is but an experiment. I am pretty sure that if everything goes well, the "girls-only" club may be expanded; eg., to "invitation-only", and so on. On the other hand, if it will be swarmed by women "perfectly capable of being uncivil", it just as well may self-disband or shut down, as it happened with a number of well-meaning wikiclubs. Wikipedia:Esperanza comes to my mind. By the way, I would like to notice that "it is my user page" is a weak argument. User pages have been deleted all the time, if their content decided to be detrimental. A possible scenario: Happily married couples would start wanting to talk together in this page. Hardcore "single ladies" would strongly oppose: "Go create your own 'Club Happy Ever After'; obviously our problems are no longer yours". Heats up, blows off. One may think of dozens of scenarios. But at the moment let's think AGF. Staszek Lem (talk) 03:26, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"let's think AGF" +1 --C.Koltzenburg (talk) 15:58, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I'll not argue for or against deletion. I think there could be utility for a women's only space on the one hand, but on the other, I'm not entirely sure whether it fits within policy as enforceable to being only women. That being said, I have concerns with the pledge requirements. Since Lightbreather really wanted those, and it is in her userspace, I just removed myself once it became clear the pledge would not change. LadyofShalott 17:40, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Strong keep This is exclusive but not discriminatory in an unfair way. I support any safe spaces where non-male editors can meet and talk without being the odd one out in a room full of guys shouting at each other.--Battleofalma (talk) 21:49, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I do not support the IdeaLab proposal as written and I do not support the membership requirements for this page and so won't !vote to keep the page. However, this page is in user space and doesn't seem to be violating user space or other guidelines. I think it would be best to revisit this page in six months or so and to delete it if any of the following apply: a) the IdeaLab proposal is approved and set up or running; b) this page receives little or no traffic; or c) this page receives traffic and the content clearly violates guidelines. Ca2james (talk) 19:36, 4 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Keep What harm exactly is this posing being in user-space? The proposed idea is active on Wikimedia so it should be kept until a decision is made regarding that. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 19:37, 4 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
What are the issues here?

WP:OWN seems to be the biggest one. The existence of the page is not a problem, the belief that one has the power to exclude others from it is. We had a similar issue where it was believed that one of the political WikiProjects was to be composed solely of advocates of that position, rather than those interested in writing about it.

What would happen, I wonder, if a person of male or indeterminate gender were to make some apposite and telling point? Would they be reverted and reported, perhaps to AN/I? Thus this idea would seem to trample WP:AGF with a vengeance.

Thirdly any significant conversation (if it were to move beyond the naval gazing required to define its constituency) would need to be replicated elsewhere so that the entire community could enter the discussion. This would appear to be provoking breaches of WP:FORK.

And finally to restrict the editing of a page to a specific demographic group is another nail in the coffin of "the encyclopaedia anyone can edit" and another case of WP:INSTRUCTION CREEP.

So despite some sympathy for the idea behind it, my !vote will be:

Delete: All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 19:49, 4 February 2015 (UTC).
Weak Keep I don't feel that strongly about it, but I see this as an extension of user talk space, but with a limited number of contributors. Now it's generally accepted that in user talk (and user) pages that you can ban users, and remove edits, and generally keep it as you wish, obviously within the limits. Now I don't really see how this contradicts this. Yes it could be seen as sexist, but at least it is a single user's views, not expressed outside of her userspace. And it's a lot better in my opinion than having a WMF mandated area, which in my view would come over a lot worse. --Mrjulesd (talk) 20:32, 4 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I've just switched from weak keep to delete as a rssult of NE Ent highlighting WMF's anti-discriminatory position above. There is a difference between banning a particular user from a user's space and banning a class of users based in this case on gender, but the same goes for race, religion, nationality etc etc DeCausa (talk) 20:48, 4 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

If the decision is "keep" what I would hope: that if a man decided to make a male only area in his userspace, that it would also be accepted. If not it would smack of double standards. --Mrjulesd (talk) 21:18, 4 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)

Comment I see this as no different than an editor creating a user page where one would have to identify as a white protestant before being allowed to post. If such a group felt uncomfortable with contributing to the encyclopedia because of unwelcome interlopers, they are welcome to take their conversation over to a venue that is more welcoming to their self-professed identity.Two kinds of pork^Makin'_Bacon 21:21, 4 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 98: / Line 98: @@
 ::I've just switched from weak keep to delete as a rssult of NE Ent highlighting WMF's anti-discriminatory position above. There is a difference between banning a particular user from a user's space and banning a class of users based in this case on gender, but the same goes for race, religion, nationality etc etc [[User:DeCausa|DeCausa]] ([[User talk:DeCausa|talk]]) 20:48, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
 :::If the decision is "keep" what I would hope: that if a man decided to make a male only area in his userspace, that it would also be accepted. If not it would smack of double standards. --[[User:Mrjulesd|<span style="font-family:'Segoe Script',cursive; color:blue;">'''Mrjulesd'''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Mrjulesd|<span style="font-family:'Segoe Script',cursive; color:orange;">(talk)</span>]] 21:18, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
+{{ec}}
+*'''Comment''' I see this as no different than an editor creating a user page where one would have to identify as a [[White supremacy|white protestant]] before being allowed to post.  If such a group felt uncomfortable with contributing to the encyclopedia because of unwelcome interlopers, they are welcome to take their conversation over to a venue that is [https://www.stormfront.org/forum/register.php more welcoming] to their self-professed identity.[[User:Two_kinds_of_pork|Two kinds of pork]]<span style="font-style:italic"><sup>[[Special:Contributions/Two_kinds_of_pork|'''Makin'''']]</sup><sub>[[User talk:Two_kinds_of_pork|<span style="color:#cc0000">Bacon</span>]]</sub></span> 21:21, 4 February 2015 (UTC)