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April 19

Yakari

As there was a question about a Franco-Belgian comic series quite recently, I had another (albeit hypothetical) question. In the eponymous series, the main character's name is Yakari (French pronunciation being something like [jaka:ʁi], I think), a Sioux Native American, apparently of the Lakota tribe. But I don't think there ever has been any given meaning for the name. In the series Buddy Longway, creator Derib includes another Sioux woman named Chinook, which allegedly is from a whole other language, so despite Derib's self-professed admiration for the tribe, he might often have been relatively loose with actual facts (in a well-meaning hippie way). So, anyway, it's a two point question. If someone familiar with the Lakota language, could come up with a believable Lakota name that could have been mangled into French [jaka:ʁi], or if not, any probable source from where artist Derib or writer Job could have picked up the name? 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 07:35, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Our article Yakari#Characters says: 'Yakari is also the only Sioux in the comic whose name does not mean anything further'.

names.org has a post saying: 'A user from Texas, U.S. says the name Yakari is of Native American origin and means "One with nature"' (pinch of salt required for that). Alansplodge (talk) 13:19, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Our Lakota language#Consonants suggests a lack of any kind of "r" sound in the Lakota phonology. Alansplodge (talk) 13:31, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Lakota does seem to have the same "guttural r" as French, though. And the article claims "The voiced uvular fricative /ʁ/ becomes a uvular trill ([ʀ]) before /i/." But still, would [jaka:ʀi] mean anything other than nonsense in Lakota? 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 13:59, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

And the uvular trill occurs in dialectal French. --Lambiam 14:02, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

From what I can see, [ʁ]/[ʀ] is spelled as ǧ in the most widespread Lakota orthography. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 14:06, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There's a word wikt:khąğí meaning "crow". I have no idea whether it's connected to the character's name. --Amble (talk) 18:22, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Might be the best guess so far. I'm not really expecting an answer, unless Derib or Job has mentioned something in an interview, though. I come to think of the Crow people, although it's hypothetized that their name originally referred to the thunderbird. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 21:49, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, by wikt:yaŋká (to sit) and wikt:khąğí (crow), you can sort of derive the compound "Sitting Crow", although it's very strained, even disregarding the fact that I know nothing about Lakota morphology and semantics. This dictionary seems pretty good, although it's difficult to look up words by the letter. Anyway, I think the discussion has been interesting so far. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 11:02, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Wild guess: wikt:yacare from Tupi. There are Brazilian and Argentinian derivations. --Error (talk) 18:51, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

April 20

Tyres

Does the Oxford English Dictionary use "tire" or "tyre" for the rubber thing you put around a wheel? I just did [1], but after reading Tire#Etymology_and_spelling, I'm not so sure. 49.198.51.54 (talk) 02:18, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

My Concise Oxford Dictionary, Sixth edition 1976, offers both spellings; but indicates that “tire” is chiefly a US spelling. Dolphin (t) 02:44, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

See also American and British English spelling differences. Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:12, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

According to EO, first it was "tyre", then it was switched to "tire", and then the Brits switched it back to "tyre".[2] --←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:29, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Since "rubber-tyred wheels" appears elsewhere in the article, I've restored the edit made by the OP for the sake of consistency. (I didn't bother to check whether British spellings are used everywhere in the article.) Deor (talk) 14:18, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Why do you dream flat tires? Martinevans123 (talk) 14:47, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the help. I asked specifically about the Oxford English Dictionary because Talk:Rail transport says that it uses Oxford spelling, and since the "Tire" article notes that it's etymologically wrong, a much newer spelling, and an 1840s spelling that wasn't used by the best English authorities a century ago, I wondered if this were one of those places where Oxford disagrees with common UK spelling. 49.198.51.54 (talk) 19:45, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The online OED says that "tyre" is A variant spelling of tire n.2, both being used indifferently in 15th and 16th centuries. In 17th cent. tire became the settled spelling, and has so continued in U.S.; but in Great Britain tyre has been revived for the pneumatic tires of bicycles, carriages, and motor cars, and is also sometimes used for iron or steel tires. CodeTalker (talk) 20:18, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Servant of the People song translation question

Servant of the People is currently bring broadcast on Vision TV, with English subtitles by Mark P. Raczkiewicz, and I've been watching it. For the first few episodes the song in the opening title sequence was not subtitled, but then they were added. And the first three lines of the song are subtitled as:

I love my country and

I even love my wife,

And I love my dog too.

Which seems a bit surprising, because at least in the episodes I've seen, he doesn't have a dog. Anyone able to tell whether the Ukrainian wording of the third line is different? --184.144.97.125 (talk) 03:52, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

From various lyrics sites, the language is Russian (not Ukrainian), and the first verse is just “I love my country, love my wife, love my dog.” —Amble (talk) 04:48, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I was hoping someone could find the actual show in Youtube or someplace and check the translation. And also confirm the language. I could never tell spoken Russian from Ukrainian, but I know a difference in how they are written (Ukrainian has a letter that looks like our I; Russian doesn't) and this tells me that the screen credits are in Ukrainian. --184.144.97.125 (talk) 22:31, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I gave it a listen. It's in Russian and the lyrics are just as you'll find on lyrics sites, "Я люблю свою страну, люблю свою жену, люблю свою собаку", which is simply "I love my country, love my wife, love my dog". I haven't seen the show but my understanding is that the spoken dialog is basically in Russian with occasional Ukrainian. The version I saw did have the printed credits in Ukrainian, just as you said. This may be different for distribution in different countries. --Amble (talk) 22:52, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Amble. --184.144.97.125 (talk) 03:51, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved

Is there any significance to свою vs мою (if the latter is a word)? —Tamfang (talk) 01:33, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It is a word and it could also be used. The word свою is a form of wikt:свой, meaning “one’s own”, and мою is a form of wikt:мой, meaning “my” or “mine”. Russian has a preference for свой, and in some cases it’s required. There’s not quite an equivalent word in English. Russian nouns also don’t require determiners like English nouns do, so you could also just say “я люблю жену”, “I love wife.” —Amble (talk) 04:28, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Magpie Murders vs. The Magpie Murders

In that miniseries title, what difference that 'the' could make? Thanks. Omidinist (talk) 17:53, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Magpie Murders is the title of the original novel; and, from the reference in that article, the TV series too. The Magpie Murders isn't. Bazza (talk) 18:42, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I meant what difference does "the" make in the meaning of the title. In a scene at its first part, writer of the book says emphatically and angrily that its title is "Magpie ..." not "The Magpie ...". Omidinist (talk) 19:00, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Because the author wanted it that way. --←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:16, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect the point is that it doesn't make much difference at all: it is important to the author, but others tend to ignore it and may not understand the distinction at all. See [3] and [4] for some similar examples. --Amble (talk) 19:29, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The article does not seem to indicate what magpies have to do with anything. Do you know? --←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:35, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

People often refer to Handel's oratorio Messiah as The Messiah. It doesn't make any difference practically, it still sorts under M for Messiah. But encylopaedicists recoil in horror at the wrongness of it, and it doesn't do to get on their bad sides. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:10, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Magpie Murders could be an avian crime story (They thought they were safe in their cozy little nest; little did they know that a merciless fiend was loose.), so the "The" makes it a bit clearer. Clarityfiend (talk) 00:10, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Also, "Magpie Murders" is rather indefinite and mysterious; it could refer to a general concept, or events with some shared characteristic that are otherwise unconnected, and could be a description by an omniscent narrator's voice, unknown to the story's characters: "The Magpie Murders" carries the suggestion of a particular series of connected acts that is, or will be, known to people in the story by that specific name. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.101.71 (talk) 00:46, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Clarityfiend: Conversely (and with apologies for paraphrasing): The Magpie Murders could be an avian crime story (Frustrated by the other birds' warning cries, it went on a killing rampage, eliminating them one by one.) So the "The" makes it a bit clearer. Bazza (talk) 08:33, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If you can have a murder of crows, why not a murder of magpies? In choosing the title, real-world author Anthony Horowitz may have followed the pattern of Midsomer Murders, which is also missing the more conventional definite article for such titles (The XYZ Murders) for crime-mystery works of fiction. Moonflower Murders continues the pattern. Magpie Murders is not only the title of a novel you may buy from a bookstore, but also that of the fictional (unfinished) crime-mystery novel by fictional author (and murder victim) Alan Conway. In the embedded novel, as a stranger is mysteriously leaving early during the funeral of Mary Blakiston, Jeffrey Weaver looks up and sees as many as seven magpies in an elm tree. He muses, Well, wasn’t that the strangest thing? A whole crowd of magpies in one tree, as if they had gathered here for the funeral. (Pages 37–38 in the paperback edition.) Potential spoiler, select to read: One of the characters, himself too a murder victim, is named Sir Magnus Pye. --Lambiam 08:44, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I looked up magpies in Alon Shulman's book "A Mess of Iguanas, a Whoop of Gorillas", and it seems the "correct" classifier for a group of magpies is a "tittering" (which I assume might be related to twittering). 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 10:54, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

About magpies, don't they have rather negative connotations, in general? Mostly as thieves of sparkly things, but also as rather shady characters in general. (In Swedish "skata" could refer to a gosipy bitch, and in Spanish "maricon" - a "big magpie" - is an effeminate gay, quite disrespected in the traditional macho culture.) 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 11:25, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It depends on how many there are. Bazza (talk) 11:33, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

But the type of negative connotation differs (in English, at least) upon which magpie is meant. Canadian magpies are violent brawling bastards, English magpies are sneaky thieving bastards, and Australian magpies are loud bastards. 24.76.103.169 (talk) 23:31, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Not mattering to one's self is not a synonym to doesn't matter to anyone. An example I can think of is the band Eagles, which in running prose is often called "the Eagles" (not lack of capital letter on "the"), to match English grammatical expectations. However, "the" is adamantly not a part of the band's name; founding members have, on occasion, been adamant about that, and their media is consistent: every album and single is credited to "Eagles". On the flip side, it is The Who, (note capital T on the word "The"), in that case "The" is part of the name, and albums consistently use "The Who" (when the band is so named on the album cover), i.e. The Who Sell Out or The Who by Numbers. Other bands are less consistent; The Rolling Stones sometimes include "The" as part of their name (see Sticky Fingers) and sometimes not (see the "clean" version of Beggars Banquet, though the bathroom version uses "The"). Famously, Pink Floyd went through an interesting evolution beginning as The Pink Floyd Sound (with Pink Floyd being an attributive noun), and then The Pink Floyd (where "The" was part of the name, see "Arnold Layne") and finally just Pink Floyd. Why does this matter, like anything else with language, it is not a law of physics, which is defined by the behavior of the universe, or something like that. The rules of language are built up through some rather random and arbitrary and even inconsistent processes, and the best we can do is just explain what those are; we don't need to agree with them and they don't need to have a cause or purpose or be consistent. They just are. --Jayron 32 12:20, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

According to this NYT article, the "magpie" in the title is an homage to Agatha Christie's use of nursery rhymes in her novels, and the book-within-a-book by the fictional author Alan Conway has chapter titles starting with "1: Sorrow" (see One for Sorrow). A preview of the book is here. Alansplodge (talk) 16:51, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I was not aware of the connection of the nursery rhyme to an observed number of magpies. The seven magpies in an elm tree make the doubly fictional Jeffrey, we are told, put the nursery rhyme in mind, with its lines "Seven for a secret, / Never to be told". Indeed, part 7 has the title "Seven: A Secret Never to Be Told". (Each part has several untitled chapters, with numbering starting each time anew at 1.) --Lambiam 17:46, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, the best known version of the rhyme in the UK (not reproduced in our article) is:

One for sorrow, / Two for joy, / Three for a girl, / Four for a boy, / Five for silver, / Six for gold, / Seven for a secret, never to be told. / Eight for a wish, / Nine for a kiss, / Ten is a bird you must not miss. Alansplodge (talk) 22:33, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The pseudonymous author of the Story of O ("Pauline Reage") was apparently insistent on leaving out the definite article from the original French title... AnonMoos (talk) 20:38, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but in French, there's a good reason for that imho, whereas in English, there isn't. French has only one word for history and story (although it does have a different one for "children's story", kind of like we have "tale"). I am not a native speaker of French, but to me, Histoire d'O means "Story of O" or "The Story of O" (and it doesn't matter which one you pick in English, because here is hardly any difference between the two imho), whereas L'histoire d'O means "The history of O" or "The Story of O", and there's clearly a difference, which I assume I don't have to explain to native English speakers. That said, if Réage made a clear statement about preference, and if it doesn't make any difference in English whether you do or don't keep the article, one might as well go along with her preference as it does no harm to the English title. Mathglot (talk) 21:54, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've tried a few searches to come up with a source about Réage's title preference, and other than user-generated content have found nothing about it. (I searched French sources only.) Mathglot (talk) 22:04, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It was in the Wikipedia article for years (you can see discussions on the article talk page). Didn't notice when it was deleted. AnonMoos (talk) 08:18, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

April 22

What is the number in at the time place?

Rogart Brooch contains the phrase "Although the number in at the time place is unknown, two were passed on ...". This isn't vandalism or a botched edit, it's been written thus since the article first started. What is it trying to say? Card Zero (talk) 08:44, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's saying that the number discovered in the hoard at the time it was unearthed was not recorded. The whole of the lead could to with rewording and reformatting as it's a bit of a mess. (I might later if nobody else does.) Bazza (talk) 08:51, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Agree -- "the number [of brooches] in the place at the time" is the obvious reading. AnonMoos (talk) 08:52, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, is it "the number in (at the time) place"? I guess "the number in place at the time" is the gentlest way to fix it. Card Zero (talk) 09:00, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I cannot access the cited source, but here it is cited as stating that the Rogart hoard consisted of 11 brooches, of which two full brooches and four fragments survive. I find it difficult to reconcile this with the phrase in our article. --Lambiam 14:58, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Lambiam: I've updated the article to fix grammar, spellings and citations, including Anderson 1881's version on Google Books. I haven't included your information from above (although I noted it was in the referenced [5]); it contradicts the Anderson 1881 reference. Be my guest (and please update anything I've messed up as well). Bazza (talk) 15:09, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your work. What do you think about the "two lozenge shaped semi-circular terminals"? I'm inclined to think that's a terrible description of their actual shape (and the helpful link to lozenge does nothing to clarify it, or explain how a lozenge can be a semicircle). What I see in the image are eight semi-circular quadrants of two cloverleaf-shaped terminals. Card Zero (talk) 16:58, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, and reworded! Bazza (talk) 17:29, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

April 23

\ˈsɛl.ə ˌdɔː\

Is there an equivalent of the English "cellar door" (a word or phrase that is beautiful purely in terms of its sound, see Phonaesthetics#Cellar_door) in other languages? Thanks! --79.55.55.107 (talk) 20:34, 23 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Selluh doh"? --←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:07, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Schmetterling! --Lambiam 07:26, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What sounds beautiful is very subjective, so it's certainly possible that many languages (probably every language) has some words that people would consider nice-sounding regardless of what they mean. I wonder if what you're asking is more like whether other languages have words that are widely cited as being "beautiful", in the way "cellar door" has been in English.

Anyway, the case of "cellar door" in English is more about people repeating a neat-sounding claim they read somewhere, rather than actually coming to their own conclusion about the word out of the blue. Most people don't just decide on their own that it's a beautiful word; they see someone say "cellar door is a beautiful-sounding word even though its meaning is very pedestrian" in a movie or column, they think "oh, that sounds plausible and like something a smart person would say", and they go on to repeat that claim to others. The Geoff Nunberg column cited in the article you linked explains this in much the same way. rʨanaɢ (talk) 00:30, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

April 24

French to Polish

Hello, I hope that I don't disturb you, I would like to know how one says the French : (fr)"Je ne sais plus où j'en suis"(emotion) in Polish, please ? This would be kind ...(Google having said the Polish for the French (fr)"Je ne sais pas où je suis", I have immediately dismissed the Google Translation.) 2A01:CB0C:C45:E000:9E:F21A:53A6:8916 (talk) 16:41, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The dreaded Google Translate translates "Już nie wiem skąd jestem z tego" as "I don't know where I'm from this anymore". Does the English correspond to the sense of the French sentence? I can't vouch for the Polish, though, regardless of the quality of the English. --Lambiam 20:22, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, more or less, I'd say. "I don't know anymore from where I am." more closer to the French syntax. Been a long time since I studied it, so I mixed up me y's and en's... 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 23:25, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The French phrase means, I think, I have lost my place, which in Polish is Straciłem swoje miejsce, unless there's a more idiomatic Polish way to say it. But the emotion might be better expressed in English as "I have lost my sense of purpose", for which Bing is giving me "Straciłem poczucie celu". Or is it more like "I am flustered"? Not sure whether the meaning you intend is more existential or more neurological. Perhaps you want to say "Jestem zdezorientowany", a straightforward translation of "I am disorientated" (je suis déboussoler). Oh and Polish cares whether the speaker is male or female, so a female speaker says "jestem zdezorientowana" instead. Card Zero (talk) 00:18, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It's "Je suis déboussolé", sorry. Although the endings -er and -é are pronounced the same, the first one is an infinitive and the other a participle. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 02:56, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

So I said "I disorientate"! I fear this is often the case. Or "I am disorientate" in fact. Card Zero (talk) 04:04, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I am often disorientate, myself, or completeled lose... 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 10:50, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Here's a few idiomatic Polish expressions that may express the same sentiment (with their more or less literal English transalations):

Już nie wiem, co dalej. (I don't know where to take it from here anymore.)
Już nie wiem, co ze sobą zrobić. / Już nie wiem, co ze sobą począć. (I don't know what to do with myself anymore.)
Już nie wiem, co myśleć. (I don't know what to think anymore.)
Już się całkiem pogubiłem (masc.) / pogubiłam (fem.). (I've got completely lost.)
Już mam mętlik w głowie. (I've got a mess in my head.)

— Kpalion^(talk) 11:38, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I understand now that the literal meaning of the French phrase is: "I no longer know where I am in it" – viz. in the tome the speaker is reading. The figurative use may correspond to the English idiomatic phrase lose one's bearings|I've lost my bearings. A somewhat prosaic Polish translation is Straciłem orientację – "I've lost the orientation". This phrase appears to be used.^[6] --Lambiam 19:44, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder whether to lose one's marbles might originate as a pun on lose one's bearings? The other kind of bearings. Card Zero (talk) 20:18, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Similarly, "props" as in hiphop slang is supposed to have been a shortening for "proper support", but could also have been a pun on the other kind of support. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 22:03, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Straciłem orientację is typically used in a more literal sense, like when the lights go out and you no longer can find your way around. The OP is clearly asking about emotional disorientation. — Kpalion^(talk) 23:00, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Benched footballers

When a footballer is benched, does it mean the footballer doesn't play the match as a starter or he sits on the bench for the whole game? Dr Salvus 18:48, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Usually, it means that, although normally a regular, the player does not start the game. He may come in later as a substitute. The term "benched" also often implies that is due to poor performance in previous game, and not because of tactical considerations. Xuxl (talk) 20:32, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Pronouncing the first "e" of "exclude" and "expand".

As far as the first "e" of "exclude" is concerned, Wiktionary gives an Audio with the vowel of "set" - in General American accent, but then claims that it's pronounced like the vowel of "sit" - probably in British accent (as I guess).

The case of the first "e" of "expand" is analogous: Wiktionary gives an Audio with the vowel of "sit" - in British accent, but then claims that it's pronounced like the vowel of "set" - probably in General American accent (as I guess).

As a non native English speaker, here are my four questions:

Are there accents that don't correspond with what I have just mentioned on behalf of Wiktionary?
What about "expect"? Wiktionary gives an Audio with the vowel of "sit" - in General American accent, but claims that it may be pronounced with either the vowel of "sit" or of "set". Is that false in any of those (British/GA) accents?
Are there words beginning with "ex" (x pronounced /ks/), whose first vowel must be pronounced like the vowel of "set", so that whoever pronounces it like the vowel of "sit" - sounds non-native?
How about the opposite case? Are there words beginning with "ex" (x pronounced /ks/), whose first vowel must be pronounced like the vowel of "sit", so that whoever pronounces it like the vowel of "set" - sounds non-native?

147.236.152.145 (talk) 20:52, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

With regard to question 3: As far as I know, when the prefix ex- means "former" (as in ex-wife or ex-parrot), it's always pronounced /ɛks/. Deor (talk) 21:47, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

And other cases in which ex is the stressed syllable (as in exit) are also always /ɛks/ or /ɛgz/. I think that in cases in which ex is an unstressed syllable (like those in your heading) /ɛks/, /ɛgz/, /ɪks/, and /ɪgz/ are in free variation among English speakers. Deor (talk) 01:12, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

For wikt:exclude, the pronunciation key give the same vowel "ɪ" on two lines, for everyone except Australians. That is to say, if you dislike thinking of it as the i in "sit", you can think of it as the first e in "secure". (But wikt:secure says the vowel there is ə, the schwa.)
I suspect all of these examples could be pronounced with either vowel, ɛ or ɪ, and only the entry for "expect" gets it right. Card Zero (talk) 23:11, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don’t think this is a difference of dialects; I think it’s just a matter of stress and vowel reduction in English. In words where the first syllable is stressed, the reduction won’t happen: extra, exit (or secondary stress: expedition, escalation). When the first syllable is unstressed, the vowel will often be reduced in speech. —Amble (talk) 02:31, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Further complicating matters, there are dialects that don't reduce vowels the same way as others (Caribbean English is known for this), different vowel sounds are used for reduced vowels as well; the reduced vowel in "roses" on the "es" part is often more of an [ɪ̈] sound than the normal schwa [ə], and schwa itself can present in a number of different ways. --Jayron 32 12:35, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think those aspects matter, because they are all about the physical manner a given vowel is pronounced, whereas my original questions were not presented from a physical viewpoint but rather from a logical one. For example: my last question is about whether there is any variety in which, people who pronounce - the "e" of a given "ex" - as the vowel of "set" is pronounced in that variety, sound non-native in that variety. So this question is about identity of vowels (the vowel of "ex" and the vowel of "set"), i.e. about a logical property. The same is true for the other questions. Indeed, I have also mentioned the (physical) audio of wiktionary, but my questions use it as a tool for comparing sounds in a given variety, so any question relating to this audio is again presented from the logical viewpoint. What user:Amble has tried to claim is, that the answer of my questions is negative if the "ex" is not stressed (even not with a secondary stress). 147.236.152.145 (talk) 14:29, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It isn't necessarily even consistent within a dialect, however. For example, some dialects have two different vowel sounds for trap and bath, some have the same vowel. Or cot and caught. Or Mary, merry and marry. The physical realization of vowel sounds (phonetics) does not necessarily vary in a consistent manner between dialects for the same phoneme. --Jayron 32 16:03, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As far as the first accents that you have mentioned (i.e. the British ones) that distinguish between the vowels of "trap/bath" (or the General American accent that distinguishes between the vowels of "clot/cloth") are concerned: I can't see how they are related to our topic. Please notice that my questions refer to the relation between the vowels of "sit/set/ex", and I suspect there's no dialect - that distinguishes between three different vowels for "sit/set/ex" - i.e. that doesn't allow to pronounce the vowel of "ex" like the vowel of "set" nor like the vowel of "sit".

As far as, the cot-caught merger - and the marry-merry merger - that you've mentioned, are concerned: Again I can't see how they are related to our issue. Please notice that I'd asked if interchanging the vowels of "sit" and "set" in a given "ex" may sound non-native in any dialect, and user:Amble gave a negative answer if the "ex" is not stressed. Isn't he correct? I suspect there's no dialect having a sit-set merger, but even if there had been such a dielect, then "interchanging" those "identical" vowels in that dialect couldn't have sounded non-native in that dialect, could it? So it was necessarily clear that my question was about dialects that well distinguish between those vowels, wasn't it? 147.236.152.145 (talk) 19:43, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There are many such dialects, but the merger is called the pin-pen merger. --Jayron 32 17:29, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've never spoken about pin-pen merger, which is actually restricted to a vowel followed by a nasal consonant. Please notice that I've only referred to the vowel of "ex" - which is clearly followed by an oral consonant (being /k/ or /g/), and that's why I wrote sit-set merger - rather than pin-pen merger. Anyway, even if there had existed such a dielect with a sit-set merger - then interchanging those two identical vowels in that dialect couldn't have sounded non-native in that dialect, and that's why I indicated that my questions were about dialects that well distinguish between those two vowels. 147.236.152.145 (talk) 18:08, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Okay. -_Jayron 32 18:10, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've just noticed that Newfoundland English has the sit-set merger. Anyway, it has nothing to do with my questions, as I indicated in the last sentence of my two previous responses. 147.236.152.145 (talk) 18:23, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Okay. --Jayron 32 18:55, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

April 26

Palatal trill

Are palatal trill sounds possible? The article says nothing about palatal trills, and in IPA, cell of palatal trills is empty, but not shaded as impossible. Is it so that palatal trills are possible, but they are not known for any language, and there is no symbol for them in IPA? --40bus (talk) 07:55, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, they're certainly possible for me. All sorts of noises are possible, such as a raspberry, but that does not mean they get to be used in any language or would be allocated a symbol. Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:14, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Unless you're Freddie "Parrot Face" Davies, whose comedy act depended almost entirely on an affected raspberry lisp. YouTube clip Alansplodge (talk) 10:51, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, our Chart of the Extensions to the International Phonetic Alphabet (extIPA), as of 2015 has ↀ͡r̪͆ buccal interdental trill (raspberry). Alansplodge (talk) 12:27, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There were also some sounds that the International Phonetic Association deemed as technically possible, but too complicated to expectingly be used as regular phonemes in any language, if I recall correctly. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 11:13, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Some reflections on the IPA describes on p. 342 the unresolved question of whether IPA should confine itself to sounds used in language, or all possible human vocalisations, i.e. anthropophonics. Alansplodge (talk) 12:22, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A palatal trill would be the same as a retroflex trill - apical, using the tip of the tongue. You can't physically trill or tap the body of the tongue against the palate or velum. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 11:06, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

According to our Russian phonology article, Russian has a soft (i.e., palatalized) R, which is realized as an apical dental trill. — Kpalion^(talk) 21:45, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Grammatical gender

A few questions about grammatical genders:

Is there any gendered language with at least 10 noun cases?
Is there any gendered language where none of the personal pronouns are gendered?
Is there any agglutinative of polysynthetic gendered language?
Is there any Uralic, Turkic, Mongolic or Tungusic language with grammatical gender?

--40bus (talk) 15:24, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This Quora thread seems to imply that the Tsez language has something like 250ish cases; which seems like if you have that many cases, you have no cases at all. The Wikipedia article only says 64 cases though, and the lack of agreement here probably stems from what really is a noun case. Tsez is gendered in the sense that it has four "noun classes" (which read as "gender" to me, anyways), one for male people, one for female people and some inanimate objects, one for animals and some inanimate objects, and one used for inanimate objects only. So, perhaps Tsez is the answer to your first question. --Jayron 32 15:48, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
And is there any Uralic, Turkic, Mongolic or Tungusic language with gendered third-person singular pronoun? 40bus (talk) 17:10, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I couldn't find any, but if you check Wikipedia articles titled Uralic languages, Turkic languages, Mongolic languages , and Tungusic languages from each of those articles you can follow links to Wikipedia articles on individual languages within those families, and from there research the answer to your question. --Jayron 32 17:26, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like Basque satisfies #2. [...] masculine and feminine second person singular. The pronoun hi is used for both of them, but where the masculine form of the verb uses a -k, the feminine uses an -n. That is to say, although the personal pronouns are genderless, any verb gets this clitic -k or -n stuck onto it in order to indicate the gender of the person being addressed (except when speaking in the formal register). Card Zero (talk) 17:29, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't know that before you mentioned Basque, which is really interesting and amazing in this context ! 147.236.152.145 (talk) 18:51, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ordinal numbers

Is Finnish (and possibly related languages such as Karelian an Veps) only languages which add the ordinal suffix to every part of number, i.e. they say e.g. "twentieth-first" (kahdeskymmenesensimmäinen), and not *kaksikymmentäensimmäinen? Estonian says kahe kümnene esimene, and it puts the ordinal suffix only to last word of noun. Are there other languages which say literally "twentieth-first"? --40bus (talk) 17:48, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Polish does it, but only for the tens and ones, e.g., dwudziesty pierwszy (twentieth first), sto dwudziesty pierwszy (one hundred twentieth first), sto pierwszy (one hundred first). Of course, round multiples of 100 also have their ordinal forms, e.g., dwusetny (two hundredth), trzytysięczny (three thousandth). — Kpalion^(talk) 21:32, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 113: / Line 113: @@
 :[https://www.proz.com/forum/lighter_side_of_trans_interp/46559-old_joke_about_linguists.html ''Schmetterling''!] &nbsp;--[[User talk:Lambiam|Lambiam]] 07:26, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
+:What sounds beautiful is very subjective, so it's certainly possible that many languages (probably every language) has some words that people would consider nice-sounding regardless of what they mean. I wonder if what you're asking is more like whether other languages have words that are ''widely cited'' as being "beautiful", in the way "cellar door" has been in English.
+:Anyway, the case of "cellar door" in English is more about people repeating a neat-sounding claim they read somewhere, rather than actually coming to their own conclusion about the word out of the blue. Most people don't just decide on their own that it's a beautiful word; they see someone say "''cellar door'' is a beautiful-sounding word even though its meaning is very pedestrian" in a movie or column, they think "oh, that sounds plausible and like something a smart person would say", and they go on to repeat that claim to others. The Geoff Nunberg column cited in the article you linked explains this in much the same way. <b class="IPA">[[Special:Contributions/Rjanag|r<font color="#8B0000">ʨ</font>anaɢ]]</b>&nbsp;([[User talk:Rjanag|talk]]) 00:30, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
 = April 24 =