Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography/Serial Killer task force

Welcome To the Serial Killer Task Force

This task force is still under construction. Please feel free to join or make recommendations on how to improve this page.

The Zodiac Killer's Identity?

Here is a website that shows how Arthur Leigh Allen stated that he was the Zodiac Killer. It also has the answer to the 'My Name Is' cipher inside of it. http://www.opordanalytical.com/articles/Zodiac.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.132.147.42 (talk) 02:14, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, but that is quite a bit away from what the focus of WP articles should address. Wildhartlivie (talk) 03:45, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

The author of this website at opordanalytical.com has "after further investigation ... concluded that Arthur Leigh Allen was not the Zodiac Killer." He doesn't say what in his "investigation" caused him to change his mind. Unless someone says otherwise, I'm going to delete this entire entry in a few weeks.--TL36 (talk) 02:48, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

You're going to delete what entry? Wildhartlivie (talk) 03:46, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

"Unapprehended" is not a word. Just use N/A

At a glance, it seems various editors have been filling in the template field "date apprehended" with "unapprehended". Searching WP for "unapprehended" resulted in too many hits. The value "N/A" (not applicable) is best. Unapprehended is not a word in this context (at best, it could be jargon). Nor is it a date. Please use "N/A" as the value when the field in question is not applicable. (However, I did also see a sort of "AT LARGE" header on some page.) I'll revert unapprehended to N/A on the page I was originally looking at. -- EsotericRogue Talk 17:04, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

There's nothing here that suggests the use of that word. That should probably be taken up on the talk pages of whatever articles you see, rather than posting here. These articles get a LOT of IP and new editor changes that never make it back here. Wildhartlivie (talk) 19:47, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't intend to have the same discussion in dozens of places when this appears to me to be the ideal centralized place to discuss the matter once, and then refer to as needed. The project page outlines using the template, and "filling in the template field" is related to using the template. -- EsotericRogue Talk 23:49, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Infobox

Ok, all I've been doing is placing the infobox where needed. It seems though that the one on the taskforce page is a bit outdated. "sentence" should be there instead of "penalty", "Convicted" instead of "charge"... Where can we check the infobox parameters ? Zubrowka74 (talk) 02:07, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Nevermind, I found it. I'll update the page. Zubrowka74 (talk) 02:56, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Erm, it isn't appropriate to go in and change parameters without discussing it here first. Being bold is one thing, inflicting your POV on the infobox is a drastic thing that should never be undertaken without consensus. Wildhartlivie (talk) 11:20, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Erm, the parameters for the infobox listed on the page were not working. This is not a POV but a fact. I just updated the information with the one found on the infobox page. 15:48, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Then the proper thing to do is bring whatever non-working problems you note to this page and allow project members to help work it out. There is no support to just forge ahead and make wholesale changes. What precisely wasn't "working"? You removed vital information such as place of death and the place for alt text which is likely something a newer editor would know nothing about. Please explain yourself here. Wildhartlivie (talk) 04:48, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

I think there is a misunderstanding here, because I added the exact version of the Template:Infobox serial killer page. The version on the SKTF page WAS missing the "alt", "deathplace" and "conviction" parameters, and had "penalty" instead of "sentence". If you check the history I actually restored them. In my reasoning, if the Infobox page was already the result of consensus, copying the right information wouldn't be a major change. Otherwise I would have used the talk page. Sorry if this caused any distress. Zubrowka74 (talk) 14:58, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

So the template on the project page still needs an update. The parameters, taken from the infobox page, are as follow :

{{Infobox serial killer
| name        = 
| image       = 
| caption     = 
| alt         = 
| birthname   = 
| alias       = 
| birth       = 
| location    = 
| death       = 
| deathplace  = 
| cause       = 
| conviction  = 
| sentence    = 
| victims     = 
| beginyear   = 
| endyear     = 
| country     = 
| states      = 
| apprehended = 
}}

Can I put the accurate information back now ? zubrowka74 17:41, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

So, if no one objects, I'll update this tomorrow. zubrowka74 14:38, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

reason for revert please ?

Yes, I'd like to see you rationale behing you last revert, Wildhartlivie. The data on this page is wrong, period. Please go read the infobox documentation. I waited for a discussion right here and no one replied. Are we going to let this page drift into obsolescence ? zubrowka74 17:51, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Serial Killer Database

Good afternoon,

I would like to determine the level of interest that you all may have in helping to populate a serial killer database. I currently have about 800 entries but I am sure that there are cases across the US that I have overlooked.

Are any members of the task force actively maintaining a database of serial murderers?

Email me at eyak8218@hotmail.com if you are interested. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fedagntmulder (talk • contribs) 20:06, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

==I am not a member of the task force - how do you join - but I am a criminal defense lawyer in New Mexico familiar with our stable of serial murderers: William Wayne Gilbert had several murder convictions, he once escaped on July 4th from the state penitentiary, and his death sentence was commuted by Governor Toney Anaya to life without possibility of parole. Gregg Francis Braun was convicted of killing five persons in four states, received three life sentences until his luck ran out in Oklahoma where he was convicted and executed in 2000. David Bruce Morton had a hung jury from one murder of a 22 year old woman in Santa Fe, New Mexico, was convicted of murdering another 22 year old in Oklahoma and, when DNA matched him to others, returned to New Mexico and pled guilty to several other murders here. chris mcclendon suspected of serial murders. David Parker Raysuspected of 60 murders but died in prison. Robert Ray Fry convicted of four murders in three death penalty trials but suspected of 8 other Navajo murders in Four Corners. Steve Aarons (talk) 03:20, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia needs to create pages for the other SKs the guy from NM listed that do not have pages yet.

David Parker Ray

An IP editor has raised issues on Talk:David Parker Ray claiming that the article is full of errors (see subject "This article is nearly 100% erroneous"). I don't know enough on the subject to assess the accuracy of his complaints or their basis. If any SKTF members have information that would help, please chime in there. TJRC (talk) 21:22, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

===I am not a SKTF member yet, but I am a criminal defense lawyer in the county where Judge Mertz tried this case. I don't know the family background, but the discussion of the investigation, trial and aftermath is accurate in my opinion. The article could be better written. Ray was convicted of brutal sexual torture of one woman before she escaped, the instrument of his murders was recovered, and Ray died in prison without any attempt to convict him of killing up to 60 women according to codefendants. Certainly a notable serial killer. Conviction of a series of murders cannot be a prerequisite to SK consideration: prosecutors don't want to spend a lot of money and energy trying to prove more cases once the suspect is already behind bars for life. See e.g. Robert Ray Fry. Unproven lore comes with this territory. Steve Aarons (talk) 03:17, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

I was at List's trial.

I know this doesn't fit into the proper way to be inserted on the official page, but I tell you, I attended about an hour of List's trial for a class I was taking at Ocean County (New Jersey) College and my Criminal Justice major in the Spring of 1990. List was brought in handcuffs, and I remember thinking, "Couldn't they just let him walk in the courtroom without all this? He's was an old man. and very frail in appearance, and looked like my friends' grandfathers. One false move, it was clear to me, he'd be brought down by one of weakest guards! I guess when you're a mass murderer, things go along to protocol. I was a seven-month old baby when List did his crimes, and a June senior in high school when he was caught. I read every book. It's such an intriguing case. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.3.112.32 (talk) 02:54, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

My visit past the "List" home.

I had summer friends (I'm from Seaside Heights, home of Jersey Shore, so please don't crack on me, I've heard enough) who lived in Westfield. We drove right up to the new home (the list house burned in the early 70's). We were pulled over by the cops almost instantly, and I think he let us go because I wore my heart on my sleeve, "We're only here officer, to drive by the list place. I have paper due in Criminal Justice." I don't know if should have hauled us in, or just laugh at us and let us go, as he did. I remember there was an orange thing stabled high on one of the trees, clearly from List era, that told us: you park, you pay. I was just lucky, but I think of the incident all the time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.3.112.32 (talk) 03:23, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Billy the Kid

There is discussion at Billy the Kid about merging and redirecting Ollie P. Roberts. Any input would be great.--Adam in MO Talk 08:50, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Charles Whitman

Hello,

I am currently doing a translation in french of this article. On the discussion page, it seems that there are suggestions to improve it but I cannot find them. Are they in the archives (I am not interested in reading all of it) ? Is there somewhere a list of these suggestions ?

I post my question here because I cannot edit the discussion page (it seems that my account works only on fr.wikipedia.org).

Thank you, Mahogaia (talk) 16:07, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Proposed merger and page move

There is a proposal to merge Fred West and Rosemary West into a single article entitled Fred and Rosemary West. --Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 03:25, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Spree killer infobox: remove killings, injured, and weapons

Discussion and RFC here [1] Noloop (talk) 03:28, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

my question is, did henry lee lucas, ever in any of his discusions, ever mention about a girl that he stalked for the whole day,along route 10, but she got away???? he lost out on killing this girl,when she was able to get away from him at a resturant parking lot,he was being hassled by two men who did not like the way henry was looking at their wives, this girl very wisely saw her chance to get as far away from him as possible,she was able to loose him in a town called LAKE CITY, FLORIDA. this happened in the early 1980's and if so she can to this day tell you what the guy was wearing, driving ,can relive the day like it was yesterday! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.85.93.103 (talk) 01:02, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Speed Freak Killings

just created article for the Speed Freak Killings, but i am not completely sure the article shouldnt be 2 articles about the two men. In terms of information, probably only enough for 1 article, but i tend to not like to combine multiple notable subjects into single articles if possible.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 06:51, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Robert Ben Rhoades

somebody could make a wikipage for him. StillTrill (talk) 18:38, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

• 'Torture chamber' trucker sentence to life in prison
• Houston trucker pleads to two capital murder counts

also David Alan Gore doesnt have a wikipage.

• David Alan Gore: Florida serial killer executed by lethal injection after string of rapes and murders in 1980s | Mail Online

Henry Lee Lucas POV pushing

I thought this case might be of interest for you people in the task force. The article used to present evidence - reasonable and consistent, as far as I could tell - that Lucas' confessions to the record 600 murders were wildly exaggerated and partly the result of police malpractice. An anon user 173.169.137.142, editing the article since October 2011, seems determined to push the theory that the confessions were, in fact, true - as far as I can see, mostly by adding unsourced claims and by removing or changing the existing sourced ones. I have just reverted his edits once, "symbolically", but I have no intention of dealing with the issue any further. And since 173 remains very active in editing the article to this very day, I assume he will simply reinstate his edits and will generally have his way with the article in the future - unless someone from the task force is willing to deal with the issue, that is. Regards, --91.148.130.233 (talk) 23:18, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

P.S. I forgot to mention that the article Ottis Toole is related to the topic and is also being edited by 173.169.137.142 to support his view on Lucas' murder count.--91.148.130.233 (talk) 01:11, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Elias Abuelazam

Hi everyone. Please help me make Elias Abuelazam a good article, I just nominated it today. Thanks in advance and Happy USA Independence Day! TomCat4680 (talk) 20:38, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Tables of victims

Couple of interesting discussions on whether it is appropriate to list non-notable victims of crime on serial killers' pages. I would argue that WP:NOTMEMORIAL applies, and there may also be WP:BLP considerations. They are at Talk:2012 Aurora shooting#Tables appropriate? and Talk:Fort Hood shooting#Listing the victims' names. At the latter it has been argued that as several aricles on serial killers includ such lists, they all should, an argument I disagree with. I would seek consensus here that such lists are not appropriate unless the people on the list fulfil notability in themselves. Se what you think. --John (talk) 22:37, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Female Serial Killers "Rare" vs. Ignored?

I do original research, so I will not edit the pages. Just want to point out that the claim "female serial killers are rare" is based on old info. Peter Vronsky's book "Female Serial Killers" lists 140 cases. My research has turned up 600 so far. Wikipedia has a scanty selection. Wiki editors in this task force may wish to use the following source which contains hundreds of cases not on Wikipedia: Index: Female Serial Killers http://unknownmisandry.blogspot.com/p/index-female-serial-killers.html 67.247.28.202 (talk) 19:38, 18 December 2012 (UTC)St. Estephe 12/18/12

I think this is a very good idea! First off: As of now, only 58 women are listed in the Female Serial killers category.

The following tasks might be done: a) Check which of "Vronsky's" killers who have entries already, but are not included in the Category. b) Use Vronsky's book as reference for the remainder of his 140, and include those. c) See which of unknownmisandry's additional perpetrators who already have entry at Wikipedia, and should be joined to the category. d) Try to find mention of other of unknownmisandrys perpetrators in peer-reviewed books/journals. Arildnordby (talk) 11:17, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Furthermore, I believe you are the first to agree, unknownmisandry, that a research blog and an encyclopedia have different roles in that the immense value of a research blog is to dig up old evidence, but that an encyclopedia cannot include that prior it being sifted by an outside expert. For example, take the case of industrial baby killer Mrs. Holmen. (I've heard of her before). Should she be included in an encyclopedia on the sole basis of a single newspaper report? I feel that in HER case, we need a Swedish-speaking expert who at the very least can inform about the later developments in the case, for example police reports/court records. Those might very well exist, but in comparison: If we ONLY had a single newspaper report of Jack the Ripper, would he have been noteworthy and verifiable enough to include in Wikipedia? I think not..

Thus, in my view at least, your blog can be an extremely valuable starting point for further research, or,( for encyclopedic purposes even better), finding already done and peer-reviewed research. Keep up the good work! (That I disagree with you that, for example, professional producers/procuresses of poison should be counted as "serial killers" in general doesn't detract from my appreciation. In my view, those procuresses are in the position of hired accomplices to murder and/or even hired assassins in their own right, and whether male or female, they do not belong in the serial killer category.) Arildnordby (talk) 11:37, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Female serial killers are indeed rare, which is a statement based on comparing them to male serial killers. Male serial killers very much outweigh female serial killers. And this information is not only based on Peter Vronsky's book. Blogspot.com is not a WP:Reliable source, while information from there can be reliable and just needs a better source to support it. Flyer22 (talk) 20:47, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Added 23 in "Female serial killers" category from Wikipedia

Invaluable help from unknownmisandry blog; have added those that appear in peter vronskys 2007 book AND already have independent Wikipedia entries to category Female Serial Killers — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arildnordby (talk • contribs) 16:53, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

For those wishing critical reexamination, here's my additions:

Ursinus, Patty Cannon, Catherine Wilson, Margaret Waters, Mary Ann Cotton, Flannagan sisters (Black widows of Liverpool),Sarah Makin, Amelia Dyer, Sach and Walters, Martha Rendell, Enriqueta Martí, Amy Archer-Gilligan, Martha Wise, The Angel Makers Nagyrev, Daisy Louisa C. De Melker, Anna Marie Hahn, Marie Besnard (acquitted), Mary Elizabeth Wilson, Delfina, María, Carmen & Maria Luisa de Jesús González, Charlene Gallego, Suzan Barnes Carson, Cynthia Coffman, Blanche Taylor Moore, Karla Homolka, Betty Neumar Arildnordby (talk) 17:17, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

I've just reverted your addition of that category to Debora Green (not mentioned in Vronsky's book) and am considering reverting it from Martha Wise (I'm unable to verify the coverage of her in Vronsky's book). Please note that a personal blog, even one that covers a lot of cases, is not a reliable source, either for its own opinions or for what a book says. This blog, in particular, appears to be operating with a very distinct point of view: that women oppress men, and attention should be drawn to that as often as possible, even if it contradicts other reliable sources (note the tagline on the blog, ""FACTS which contradict what is taught in the universities and which even run counter to the assumptions made by critics of misandry."). Vronsky's book may be a reliable source in defining female serial killers, but at least one of the taggings you did that came through my watchlist is not covered in that book. I would be much more comfortable if you were handling this matter by finding sources for each woman being classified as "a serial killer" and adding them in prose to the articles (and then as a category as well), rather than going down a blog's list and adding categories that may or may not be accurate. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 20:12, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

For others, also see this discussion. Flyer22 (talk) 20:47, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Update on that discussion. Flyer22 (talk) 21:59, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

added two from English female murderers category within existing Wikipedia

the two following murderesses satisfy the base criteria 3+ murders to be included in female Serial killers category: Beverley Allitt Mary Ann Britland — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arildnordby (talk • contribs) 18:11, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

added two from English female murderers category within existing Wikipedia

the two following murderesses satisfy the base criteria 3+ murders to be included in female Serial killers category: Beverley Allitt Mary Ann Britland — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arildnordby (talk • contribs) 18:49, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Merge discussion for John Allen Muhammad

An article that you have been involved in editing, John Allen Muhammad , has been proposed for a merge with another article. If you are interested in the merge discussion, please participate by going here, and adding your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 14:47, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

List of serial killers in the United States

Hi. Can someone here please start adding references to this list, per WP:STANDALONE? Right now, the list is in violation of WP:BLP for every one of these serial killers who is still alive when a reference isn't given. Many thanks. StevenJ81 (talk) 12:04, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Merge discussion for Boston Strangler/Albert DeSalvo

An article that you have been involved in editing, Boston Strangler/Albert DeSalvo, has been proposed for a merge with another article. If you are interested in the merge discussion, please participate by going here, and adding your comments on the discussion page. Thank you.--dashiellx (talk) 18:41, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Albert Fish's GAR

Albert Fish, an article that you or your project may be interested in, has been nominated for an individual good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. GamerPro64 02:29, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Fork article or Redirect to Original Night Stalker?

Goleta serial killings.. can someone please check this 2009 print source about DNA not matching. Thanks. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:23, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

GAR

Zodiac Killer, an article that you or your project may be interested in, has been nominated for an individual good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Dana boomer (talk) 23:29, 28 September 2013 (UTC)