Talk:Channel 33 (Israel)

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Requested move 28 February 2020[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

It was proposed in this section that Channel 33 (Israel) be renamed and moved to Channel 33 (Israeli TV channel).

result:
No consensus. This request is fairly old and so needs to be closed. See no general agreement below to change the disambiguation of this article at this time. The cited guideline was effectively rebutted and that rebuttal was supported by other opposers. One opposer suggested a different qualifier, but we see no consensus for it at this time; however, there is no prejudice if editors want to open a new request for a different suggested title. As regards this suggested disambiguator, editors can strengthen their arguments and try again in a few months to garner consensus for it. Kudos to editors for your input, and Happy Publishing! (nac by page mover) P.I. Ellsworth ed. ^put'r there 15:51, 9 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Links: current log • target log

This is template {{subst:Requested move/end}}

Channel 33 (Israel) → Channel 33 (Israeli TV channel) – Apparently, this needs a pointless RM. WP:NCBC is very clear on how article titles should be handled.

Common name
Disambiguation – Articles about channels should use (radio channel) or (TV channel).
The addition of the country or other clarifying adjective can be used to further disambiguate.

This means that Channel 33 (Israel) does not follow the guideline. As it uses the country name and not the media type and not the country adjective. Instead of fighting this issue over and over, if one disagrees with how the guideline is written, they should seek consensus to change it, and not try and force WP:LOCALCONSENSUS. Gonnym (talk) 13:40, 28 February 2020 (UTC)—Relisting. Jerm (talk) 18:42, 6 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support as per WP:NCBC. Incidentally, this is not the first example I've seen lately of an Admin not understanding the television-related article naming conventions – everyone needs to check these before moving (or reverting moves of) articles. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 13:43, 28 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I don't believe the guideline mandates this unnecessarily long title. Whilst it advises using (TV channel) to disambiguate, I can only see this being applicable where there is a non-TV channel that it could be confused with (and requires disambiguating against). As it stands, there is only one Channel 33 in Israel, which is the television one. Number 57 13:52, 28 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- There is no conditional at all anywhere in the text that says that ("only if other channels exists"), nor does it allow in any place in the text to use the country name. Your interpretation of the text is the exact opposite of what it clearly states. Could you please back up your opinions with any piece of the text that actually supports it? As it stands, your current argument is a WP:IDONTLIKEIT scenario and not based on any guideline or policy. --Gonnym (talk) 14:03, 28 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Yep, you're dead wrong on this, and this is an example of a WP:IDONTLIKE it vote. There is zero reason not to follow guidelines when doing so is easy. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 14:29, 28 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - I'm happy to stick with my interpretation of the guideline – I can't see why anyone would write a guideline that intentionally requires unnecessarily lengthy article titles – there is no logic in requiring "(TV channel)" to be added when there is no non-TV alternative that it could be confused with. With regards to IDONTLIKE it accusations, obviously I don't like the proposed title, but equally you don't like the current one. Cheers, Number 57 15:04, 28 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    - It's not "unnecessary" – it's necessary, as per WP:PRECISION. "Channel 33 (Israel)" could actually be anything. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 15:14, 28 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      - The PRECISION argument makes no sense, as the guideline does not require disambiguation in all cases (i.e. if there was only one Channel 87 in the world, it wouldn't have anything appended for readers to work out what it was). Therefore if there were only two Channel 44s in the world, why does it suddenly become necessary to add tv or radio to the name? It makes no sense. Number 5 7 15:21, 28 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        but equally you don't like the current one - No, that's just a false statement, as we are actually basing our arguments on wiki guidelines and not personal tastes. I'm really struggling to AGF here on your behalf with that statement. I really can't believe an admin has just said that. --Gonnym (talk) 15:23, 28 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        Likewise trying to AGF，but it's hard when the first response to my !vote is a personal accusation. As I said above, it makes zero sense to me that the guideline would require adding "tv channel" when it wasn't necessary. I cannot believe that this was really the intention of the guideline. Number 5 7 16:15, 28 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        
        That's because if there's one "Channel 87" in the entire world it's the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and no disambig. is necessary. Once disambig is necessary, it needs to be WP:PRECISE enough to be clear. Again, "Channel 33 (Israel)" could be literally anything – an Israeli TV channel, a Israeli radio channel, an Israeli novel, an Israeli nightclub, etc. So, no, the guideline is quite correct in this case, and we can't just ignore it. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 16:21, 28 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        The same applies to the theoretical Channel 87, but we don't have to explain what it is in its title, so I don't understand why it's suddenly needed when a country disambiguator is required. Number 5 7 00:48, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Let's try a different route to the same result. Assume that the target is at Channel 33 (TV channel), but it is successfully argued that it's not primary, so it gets moved to redirect that to the disambiguation page at Channel 33. Whence does it move? The guideline says that "TV channel" is a necessary part of the disambiguation and additionally the country name where necessary. So it moves to Channel 33 (Israeli TV channel). By either route, that is its destination. 85.238.91.68 (talk) 04:57, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per reasoning of Number 57. While it is true that "Channel 33 (Israel)" could be a novel or a nightclub, the preponderance of uses of the term "channel" in this format will be for some kind of communications broadcasting channel, so it is highly unlikely that readers will be confused by an article with "Channel" in the title being about television channels. There are millions of Wikipedia articles with titles that do not tell readers precisely what the subject is about. For example, by random selection, Silas Garber could also be a novel or a nightclub or a TV show, and you'd have to click the link to find out that the article is about the third governor of Nebraska. BD2412 T 14:14, 30 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support per the guideline. The existing title should, of course, continue redirecting to the article to aid navigation. feminist (talk) 10:11, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support Per the guidelines.The existing title should, of course, continue redirecting to the article to not break links (as normal.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by KylieInTheSkylie (talk • contribs) 20:30, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Move to Channel 33 (Israeli television). Having "channel" twice in the article name seems like overkill, so I think this is a case where WP:IAR wins out over the topic-specific naming conventions. The only real problem I see with the current title is the use of a proper noun for disambiguation. "Israeli television" is the general subject or context, and so satisfies WP:NCDAB. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 02:19, 6 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Number 57 and BD2412. Having "channel" in the name twice is silly. The primary purpose of a disambiguator is to help readers, not to conform religiously to naming guidelines. Sangdebeouf's suggestion would be OK too as it avoids the duplication issue. — Amakuru (talk) 18:18, 7 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.