Talk:Class S (culture)

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Transwiki

Please note this article has been transwikied from wikt:Class S per discussion on Talk:Yuri (term), and includes information from the Wikipedia articles Esu provided originally by User:75.15.122.52, User:Renrutal, User:Ninja neko and me, and Takarazuka Theater originally contributed by User:Relyna85. Further edit history can be found at those pages. -Malkinann (talk) 01:39, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please note that Takarazuka Theater has been merged into Takarazuka Revue. -Malkinann (talk) 11:53, 15 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Shōjo Shōsetsu?

I've been reading a bit further on Class S, and I'm coming across the term shōjo shōsetsu, which is translated as girl's fiction. [1][2]I'm not sure if it's analagous to shoujo manga, where shōjo shōsetsu would be a demographic, not a genre, or if it is (yet another) way of saying Class S. Thoughts? -Malkinann (talk) 11:53, 15 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say it has more to do with actual novels/fiction rather than manga which has it's own category. Think Maria-sama ga Miteru for shōjo shōsetsu I'd say, and that doesn't mean a "shōjo shōsetsu" series has to be Class S, but merely be targeted towards girls.--十八 12:04, 15 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Shoujo Shousetsu is girl's novel, meaning a novel aimed at girl. There are novel labels aimed at girls, novels published under these labels are called Shoujo Shousetsu (girl's novel). Even light novels published under girl's labels are also called shoujo shousetsu by the publishers. Shoujo Shousetsu is used for novels and light novels aimed at girls. You can find girl oriented novel labels and girl oriented light novel labels mentioned here: http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/少女小説 (also girl oriented novel/light novel magazines). --ChuChu (talk) 14:10, 15 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you - I've just seen Yoshiya referred to as the mother of shoujo shousetsu, and I was worried that we'd gotten the article name wrong. -Malkinann (talk) 21:14, 15 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Confusion between Takarazuka and Class S

I want to notify everyone that I am going to rewrite this article according to sources mainly devoted to Class S, since at the moment the history section is a mess that mixes two different lesbian phenomena. In its ideal understanding, Class S is a hybrid of female situational homosexuality, idealized sisterhood and friendship, but most of the section for some reason is devoted to Takarazuka, which more influenced the Japanese lesbian community through androgyny and gender roles. Thus, now the section is more devoted to the muddled description of lesbian tendencies in relations between women in Japan at the beginning of the 20th century than to any of the two phenomena in general. Solaire the knight (talk) 09:36, 15 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A few years late, but I'm gonna take a stab at reorganizing and expanding this article. You're correct that parts of this article read more like a general overview of lesbian expression in Japan at the turn of the century, rather than an explanation of the specific phenomenon of Class S. And while it might be appropriate to address those expressions in this article as a means of providing context, as they're integrated now they only serve to muddy the distinction between a bunch of disparate concepts. Morgan695 (talk) 00:30, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 21 May 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

It was proposed in this section that multiple pages be renamed and moved.

result:
Procedural close by Morgan695 citing: "It's clear even at this early stage that 'should this page be renamed Esu' will fail for procedural reasons, but I believe the general question of 'should this page be renamed' still merits discussion, so I'm archiving this RM to open one with an open-ended prompt." Thanks and kudos to editors for your input; everyone stay healthy! P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 10:50, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Move logs: source title · target title

This is template {{subst:Requested move/end}}

Class S (genre) → Esu
Esu → Esu (disambiguation)

– Class S is both a literary genre and a social practice, but the title "Class S (genre)" suggests it is only the former. I suggest changing the name of the article to Esu to reflect this; incidentally, this will also align the article with how it is titled on the Japanese and French Wikipedias. Morgan695 (talk) 07:02, 21 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: pages with content, such as Esu, are ineligible to be new titles in move requests unless they, too, are dispositioned. Esu → Esu (disambiguation) had to be added to this request to meet that requirement. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 12:39, 21 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose target Esu is a dab page. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:16, 21 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Simply rename the article to something like "Class S" or "Class S (movement)". The phenomenon is known under this name, while others are only variations of it. Solaire the knight (talk) 08:32, 21 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Also note that this S is never spelled "Esu" in English sources. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:43, 21 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's clear even at this early stage that "should this page be renamed Esu" will fail for procedural reasons, but I believe the general question of "should this page be renamed" still merits discussion, so I'm archiving this RM to open one with an open-ended prompt. Morgan695 (talk) 15:52, 21 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 21 May 2023_2

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved to Class S (culture). CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 17:26, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Class S (genre) → ? – Class S is both a literary genre and a social practice, but the title "Class S (genre)" suggests it is only the former. The name of the article should be changed to more accurately characterize the subject. For reference, titles used for this page in other language Wikipedias include "S (culture)" and "Esu". I would support a move to "Esu (culture)" or "Class S (culture)", but welcome other suggestions. Morgan695 (talk) 16:11, 21 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm voting for "Class S (culture)" or something. The "S" option is too general and can obviously cause search problems. Plus, subjectively, the "Class S" option is much more common and used in the public space. On the other hand, I would expand the article, since at the moment this is just a general description of "romantic friendship in Japanese", which makes it difficult to understand why this is a separate culture and has so much influenced the way the Japanese feel about friendship or love between women. But this is probably a secondary point. Solaire the knight (talk) 17:48, 21 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What about moving the page to simply "Class S"? It seems most people who end up on the dab page just click through to this page [3]. Link20XX (talk) 18:17, 21 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid that this too will be too general and possibly introduce some confusion into the search. But if there really are no other options, then you can try. Solaire the knight (talk) 18:23, 21 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'd be fine with moving this to just Class S, but the path of least resistance might be "Class S (culture)" or similar. Morgan695 (talk) 18:55, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]