Talk:Derrick Bell

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Factual errors[edit]

"At the time, of the university's 90 tenured professors, only three were black and five were women."

Not right: 1. The source (an Answers.com article) says 60 tenured professors, not 90. 2. Harvard University had over 600 tenured faculty in 1990 (60 would be absurdly low for a university of nearly 20,000 students). The source article seems to mean the Law School, which indeed had 57 tenured professors, of which five were women. (The Law School is only one of many schools that make up the university.)

http://www.provost.harvard.edu/institutional_research/archive/1990_1991_Fact_Book.pdf

RonnyO75 (talk) 18:58, 11 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]


In the section "As an Author," a previous editor misattributes quotes and ideas (originally from Noel Ignatiev) as belonging to Derrick Bell. One need only click on the cited article to see that the piece is quoting the writing of Noel Ignatiev.

  • One of Bell's most controversial works, "When Race Becomes Real: Black and White Writers Confront Their Personal Histories" published in 2002, advocated the destruction of the white race and white people as a whole, which drew much criticism from both media outlets and the general public who was unfamiliar with his work. He claimed preemptively that it wasn't racist to wish for the destruction of the white race, and instead claimed it was actually anti-royalism.[16]

--73.189.188.22 (talk) 00:14, 20 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Has he passed?[edit]

There are reports on Facebook that Professor Bell passed away. We should probably wait on NYU confirmation before changing anything. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.99.68.241 (talk) 04:48, 6 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Tape of Obama speaking[edit]

Why does it matter who uncovered the tape? Was it deliberately hidden or something? What I'm saying is that there doesn't seem to be any reason to plaster Breitbart's name onto this. 205.208.8.103 (talk) 21:40, 7 March 2012 (UTC)venomlash[reply]

People are fiddling around with the reference used for this tape. Changing from one supposed biased source to another one. --THE FOUNDERS INTENT PRAISE 02:54, 8 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Why did you (apparently) add the "dubious" flag to the reference? Whatever the source, is the video a hoax? It seems pretty real to me (and uncontroversial too). -- Prothonotar (talk) 03:19, 8 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hat off-topic comments. Please focus on the editorial content of the article. Dreadstar ☥ 20:01, 9 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
  • Just remember folks, Paul Revere was warning the British. Keep that "fact" in mind when reviewing recent edits.--Milowent • hasspoken 04:45, 8 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Really!? A swipe at Sarah Palin is your comment? I bet you think you are clever. Arzel (talk) 05:35, 8 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Its not a swipe at Sarah, its a swipe at people who edited the paul revere articles and got smacked down in press reports for doing so.--Milowent • hasspoken 14:05, 8 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, the radicals are rushing to the aid of the memory of another radical, trying to sweep history under the rug when it exposes uncomfortable facts and threatens to expose their subversive schemes. It reduces Wikipedia to the status of a cheap soap box for the lunatic fringe to spout discredited political and social theories. Let's just stick to the facts: Did it or did it not happen? Is there or isn't there a videotape recording? — QuicksilverT @ 21:04, 8 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
i think you're putting up your own soapbox there, quicksilver. radical is "your" own value judgment about this man, as is "discredited political and social theories" and thus should be entirely irrelevant to the content of this article. to the facts: yes, derrick bell advocated for racial and gender equality at HLS. yes, this caused quite a stirr at the time. yes, he was filmed on at least one occasion during that campaign. and yes, one of his (many) students would later go on and become president of the USA. personally i do not see the relevance of this tape to this particular article. there is no new revelation that can be gathered from the tape, contrary to what the angry parrots in media are now saying. neither bell, nor obama can be seen saying anything revelatory or sensational on these tapes. and bell himself has documented the case rather well in his book, which should serve as a far better source than any filmic account. --87.171.87.106 (talk) 23:16, 8 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

On March 8, 2012, The Young Turks showed this video with the following information - Buzzfeed showed Obama's speech, but did not show Obama hugging Derrick Bell. According to The Young Turks' Cenk Uygur, this was shown on PBS without voice over in 2008, contrary to what Ben Shapiro and Joel Pollak from Breitbart.com claimed on Sean Hannity's show on Fox News. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_profilepage&v=tnY3sVimtKo Jtyroler (talk) 15:10, 9 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Please lock to prevent imminent vandalism[edit]

The GOP is currently conducting a smear campaign against Professor Bell. I know because I am a deep undercover double agent at a famous Republican's campaign. This page will be vandalized. 69.140.51.34 (talk) 00:04, 8 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We don't lock articles because of the potential of vandalism. The best solution is for experienced editors committed to the neutral point of view to put this article on their watch lists. This is a biography that should cover Derrick Bell's entire life and career. It should not give undue weight to his relationship with a law student who happened to become president 17 years later. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 05:46, 8 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hat off-topic discussion, please focus on the editorial content of the article. Dreadstar ☥ 01:40, 10 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
"deep undercover double agent at a famous Republican's campaign" who posts from somewhere who's IP address is not only recorded, but quite visible? (67.242.141.219 (talk) 17:16, 8 March 2012 (UTC))[reply]
Seems to be a joke. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 19:38, 8 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds paranoid and delusional. What's next? The IP address is within a block assigned to Comcast Communications, so it could be practically anywhere in the U.S. — QuicksilverT @ 21:08, 8 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In Popular Media[edit]

Instead of raising NPOV issues by talking about a "right wing attack," this section (or a new section) should raise the issue of how much President Obama was influenced by Derrick Bell, and in what ways. That is a more appropriate discussion in an article on a scholar than whether an attempt to establish an association constitutes an "attack" or not.Davidwhittle (talk) 23:39, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If you can explain exactly how an unbiased encyclopedia would venture to discuss how one individual has been influenced by another, without grossly violating WP:NPOV, I'd be interested in hearing your formula. X4n6 (talk) 04:14, 13 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I was hugged by my aunt once. I'M A CHANGED MAN. IDiots.--Milowent • hasspoken 04:16, 13 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If a genuinely reliable source, rather than a publication with an ideological axe to grind, wrote a scholarly piece on how Derrick Bell influenced Barack Obama's understanding of the law, then that would be an appropriate reference for our biography of Barack Obama, or a related Barack Obama article. But in general, we don't make lists of people that scholars influenced. Can you imagine how long that list would be in the case of Charles Darwin or Albert Einstein or Sigmund Freud? Let's discuss such an outstanding source on Bell's influence if (and when) it is brought forward. Not now. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 04:28, 13 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I agree completely with these replies, and in fact I eliminated the section and integrated the relevant actual facts - not POV speculation - into other sections. Let's remember this is Bell's bio of his career and life. Also - I reinstated the description of Lani Guinier as an African American woman because the point of Bell's protest was specifically that there were no minority women on the faculty -that his replacement was an African American woman is of note, and that she is a woman, and African American would not necessarily be apparent to people who don't know who she is, didn't live through her AG nomination. Perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't see how that is POV or bias - it's a fact relevant to Bell as it is exactly what he was raising the university community's consciousness about - his leaving paved the way for the beginning of the correction of the diversity problem as he hoped so I believe it is valuable for our readers to understand that. But I'm open to hearing why that's not appropriate.Tvoz/talk 08:41, 13 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This is pretty much everything I wanted to say, only more eloquent than I could have put it. Concur completely, and I'm restoring the relevant text. Gamaliel (talk) 18:28, 16 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request on 13 March 2012[edit]

Please add the following to Derrek Bell's page. It seems as though his military history was "mysteriously" deleted!!!!!!

Military/Wartime Service: U.S. Air Force, 1952-54; served in Korea.

In the early 1950s, a young African American Air Force lieutenant named Derrick Bell was stationed in Louisiana, near a small town whose Presbyterian church was for whites only. A Presbyterian himself, Bell thought it unseemly that a house of worship would close its doors to believers of a different skin color. So one Sunday he put on his uniform and asked to attend the church service. The stunned parishioners reluctantly granted him a place--a pew of his own in the balcony. But Bell did not stop there; he liked to sing in his hometown church in Pittsburgh, and he asked the minister if the choir would now make room for one more voice. "I'm not on some God-driven mission," Bell was quoted as saying in the New York Times. "But it just seemed natural that if I wanted to sing in the choir, why shouldn't I sing in the choir?"

Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/derrick-bell#ixzz1p1EfGFoT


76.115.227.18 (talk) 17:39, 13 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: That is a word for word copy of the source. You need to capture the same information in your own words to avoid violating the aauthor's copyright. Thanks, Celestra (talk) 04:49, 14 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In addition, Answers.com is a user-submitted website (like Wikipedia), so it is not acceptable as a reference on Wikipedia. Similarly, one Wikipedia article is not acceptable as a reference for another Wikipedia article. You need to reference a genuine reliable independent source, and you can either rewrite the material in your own words, or include a brief quote from the reliable source, in quotation marks, with a reference. Thanks for your efforts to improve this article about Derrick Bell. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 05:15, 14 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I thought so at first too, but the section from which this text was taken appears to be an online copy of Black Biographies: Contemporary Black Biography, by the Gale Group. I didn't dig further once I noticed the copyvio, but I think this has the potential of being a reliable source. Celestra (talk) 14:26, 14 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

copyvio tag[edit]

I am copying my explanation of the copy-paste tag here from User talk:Cullen328:

The answers.com page contains both Wikipedia text AND other sources. There are sections of the wikipedia article that are copied from the Gale Contemporary Black Biography text on the answers.com page (NOT the Wikipedia text). For instance, the following text appears in both the Gale article and the Wikipedia article:

Bell established a new course in civil rights law at Harvard, publishing a celebrated case book, Race, Racism and American Law, and producing a steady stream of law review articles. As a teacher, Bell became a mentor and rolemodel to a generation of students of color, but he played a delicate balancing act at the university.
Bell became the first black tenured professor in Harvard Law School's history and called on the university to improve its minority hiring record. But shortly after his tenure in 1971, a white university vice-president tried to purchase a house that Bell had been offered through a school program; Bell saw this as a blatant case of discrimination. This was only the first case in which Bell's charges of racism would mobilize his supporters, who championed his efforts to stand up for principle, and anger his detractors, who accused him of being too quick with his allegations of bigotry.

There are several other examples. I know its a bit confusing because the answers.com page includes wikipedia text, but this is very clearly copyvio. GabrielF (talk) 01:52, 15 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Moved the tag to the affected section; started to work on rewriting and adding other sources - hope others will join in. Note that the copyvio issues are from the Gale bio which should get the citation - that should be looked at and fixed. The answers.com piece seems to be a combo of Gale and Wiki. Tvoz/talk 07:45, 17 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
First, I'm not entirely convinced that Answers.com meets WP:RS. But I am convinced that deploying it as justification for using a racial identifier here, especially where no direct quotes are used, is pretty thin at best and very likely is a vio of WP:UNDUE. Unlike that website, here if someone really has any interest in her ethnicity, they can simply follow the link to her BLP - where, incidentally, she is identified as being of Jewish and African-American descent - thereby making the statement factually inaccurate and also a BLP vio. So, per WP:GRAPEVINE, I have removed it again. Please trust the reader to link to the subject's BLP if they feel the need for additional information. X4n6 (talk) 23:32, 16 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You're confusing two things - answers.com was not used in connection with Guinier's ethnicity, which is now sourced and its direct relevance to Bell's bio demonstrated. Answers.com is actuially Gale Biograhy which is decent source, but we have to get rid of the cut and paste that someone did at some point, as GabrielF pointed out. I've started to rewrite those sections but hope that others will do so too. Tvoz/talk 07:45, 17 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the clarification, both in the sourcing and the context. The rewrite now gives a relevant context for the racial identifier that was not there before. So in that context, it's fine. X4n6 (talk) 22:39, 17 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Copyright problem removed[edit]

Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: Contemporary Black Biography, by the Gale Group, Inc.. Infringing material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Moonriddengirl (talk) 19:52, 25 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It did not "take" until 1998 for Harvard law to hire a black woman as a professor; expressing history from a biased perspective such as it "taking" a certain amount of time for an action to happen is not acceptable on wikipedia. Harvard law was not under existential pressure from the cosmos to hire a black woman. The way the article was worded implied that Derrick Bell is on the side of universal justice and that Harvard's later hiring of Guinier was indicative of them caving in to his demands, rather than merely Harvard's choice to hire a certain qualified individual at a later date. This biased viewpoint has been removed from the article.

Implicit Bias in Tone[edit]

It did not "take" until 1998 for Harvard Law to hire a black woman as a professor; expressing history from a biased perspective such as it "taking" a certain amount of time for an action to happen is not acceptable on wikipedia. Harvard Law was not under existential pressure from the cosmos to hire a black woman. The way the article was worded implied that Derrick Bell is on the side of universal justice and that Harvard's later hiring of Guinier was indicative of them caving in to his demands, rather than merely Harvard's choice to hire a certain qualified individual at a later date. This biased viewpoint has been removed from the article.

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Teaching section[edit]

This section, which is mostly based on WP:PRIMARY sources published by the author of the section itself, is not neutral in tone at all. Statements such as "He would have food and drink for the students during the break in the middle of every class" are irrelevant to Bell's teachings. A statement like "Professor Bell was well known for his kindness to students. Media often missed the fact that even conservative white male students liked him personally, because he encouraged and invited them to challenge his views and gave them space to do so in his classes" is unverifiable and seems like it is trying to defend the subject of the article against perceived attacks. This section as of know does not belong in an encylopedia, and needs either attention from an expert: a total rewrite with proper sources and focus on his actual teachings, or removal altogether. RWalen (talk) 09:33, 1 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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