Talk:Durham, North Carolina

Durham, North Carolina was nominated as a Geography and places good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (October 14, 2020). There are suggestions on the review page for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated.

United States: North Carolina / Durham Low‑importance

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Cities

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Fifth Largest City in NC

I have corrected the first paragraph where it had said that Durham was the 4th largest city in NC. Winston-Salem is larger from sources I've seen. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities,_towns,_and_villages_in_North_Carolina —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wadetv (talk • contribs) 15:45, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There has been recent discussion on this mater on Talk:Winston-Salem, North Carolina#Rank of city size in the state. –Sparkgap (talk) 13:51, 31 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

ethnocentric and bland history/NPOV

It's funny how many NPOV warriors their are about the most inane little details, and yet not one person comments on how ethnocentric the history section is, which clearly constitutes NPOV. Mention the soldiers, not the slaves. Also no mention of the nationally recognized historic black middle class "Black Wall Street?" No mention of the rich legacy of the civil rights movement in the city? Finally, it doesn't even have one citation.

--71.120.220.202 (talk) 16:01, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV Discussion

Some of the bla bla like "frequently held by well off liberals" and such are certainly points of view. 24.211.135.6 06:39, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

207.247.42.130 has an intesting view on how to handle NPOV disputes....just delete them... Reboot 12:37, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So, one section at the very end of the article has questionable phrasing and the entire article becomes NPOV? Get a grip people. Bornyesterday 18:19, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There, I removed the questionable section and compressed it into a single sentence in the following paragraph and then expanded a bit on some of the recent issues under a sub-heading. If that section reads as NPOV, you're welcome to change it, but the article as a whole does not have NPOV problems. To be fair, I'll give you a day before I remove the NPOV tag. Bornyesterday 18:56, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Why does Durham need a running commentary on recent issues? I don't see this for other wiki articles about cities. Also, at what point are the "recent issues" no longer current and thus, can be removed?

I see that this was brought up more than a year ago. I also thought the "Recent Issues" section in the Politics section was interesting because it doesn't hold up over time. Does anyone else think this political commentary is important enough for Durham's Wikipedia article? I do not; I will return to this article later and delete if it hasn't been fixed/changed/removed.--Gloriamarie 18:32, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Other than NPOV Discussions

So, I live here, but I think calling Durham a "cornerstone" of the Triangle is a bit overboard. I think it tips the balance this way rather than equally among Durham, Raleigh, and Chapel Hill. Any objections to something on the order of "Durham is a city in Durham County, North Carolina, United States. It is the county seat of Durham County, the home of Duke University and North Carolina Central University as well as the North Carolina School of Science and Mathematics, and is one of the three anchors of the Research Triangle region of North Carolina." DukeEgr93 02:18, 7 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Continuing - I work at Duke, but is the Final Four appearance stat really important for a page on the City of Durham? Don't get me wrong - I love Duke Men and Women's Basketball. Just trying to be a good WikiZen. DukeEgr93 02:21, 7 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Duke is a huge part of what has made Durham what it is today, and probably why most people know it outside of North Carolina. I'm not sure what stat you have in mind, but Duke basketball would be pertinent for this article.--Gloriamarie (talk) 01:55, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Durham Association for Downtown Arts

A recent AFD discussion ended in no consensus, but there was some suggestion of merging Durham Association for Downtown Arts into the main Durham article. The article has nothing but redlinks and I don't believe it can stand on its own, but some of the information would be valuable here. -- nae'blis 15:29, 2 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Merge into a more general section on Culture. It's good enough for San Francisco. --Mereda 15:54, 2 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- It's merged now. Mereda 15:50, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Rate of Homicide

Shouldn't Durham's homicide rate be mentioned? I have read that it is one of the highest in the countries. Any thoughts? Wikipediarul e s 2221 00:22, 27 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

According to the FBI's uniform crime reporting website [1], Durham's murder and nonnegligent manslaughter rate per 100,000 residents was 6.22 in 2006; for comparison, Raleigh's was 5.45 murder and nonnegligent manslaughter per 100,000 residents. The national average in 2006 was 5.7 per 100,000 [2]. Sure, Durham is higher than the national average, but it's not that much higher. — Mustang_DVS (talk|contribs) 00:53, 11 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use rationale for Image:Durham city seal.gif

Image:Durham city seal.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 03:21, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I just added a fair use rationale based on the fact that the image is the seal of the government of Durham, North Carolina and the image is only used on that page. It is not, for example, part of any info boxes or city templates. DukeEGR93 20:08, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

OR removed

Removed the following:

Much of the city is considered to be unsafe, with Durham having the highest crime rate in North Carolina.

(This seems familiar ... did someone add this before?) Please provide citation for claims like "highest crime rate." Avoid weasel words like "is considered." -- David Spalding (☎ ✉ ✍) 03:07, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

James M. DeVone, Sr.

References to this person as a famous resident of Durham have been added and removed several times. The only references I'm finding on James M. DeVone, Sr. are references to some court cases some comments about a bike pump (apparently his invention) and a dispute involving the Durham City council. Is this person notable enough to warrant mention here?--Rtphokie 12:16, 24 October 2007 (UTC). However, SEE: "James DeVone-NCCU Notables".[reply]

Image copyright problem with Image:DurhamBulls.png

The image Image:DurhamBulls.png is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --07:02, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Done, problem solved. --Andrew Kelly (talk) 16:17, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Notification

The related Category:Universities and colleges in Raleigh-Durham, North Carolina has been nominated for deletion, merging, or renaming. You are encouraged to join the discussion on the Categories for Discussion page.

APK is ready for the tourists to leave 19:06, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Durham disambiguation

I don't understand why Durham goes to a town in England. Shouldn't Durham go to a disambig page? Or even maybe to the biggest and most well-known Durham (NC)? I asked the same question on the Durham (England) talk page... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.239.101.242 (talk) 18:33, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How do you work out it's the most well known? I did a search on bing.com (I'd have done it on Google.com but for some reason it always redirected me to Google.co.uk, which prejudiced the results to the UK Durham). On bing (a US site), for Durham UK I got 8,900,000 results.[3] For Durham USA I got 7,390,000 results.[4] I suspect if you asked people in Germany, France, Scandinavia, Iran, Australia etc they would have heard of Durham UK before the USA one (it's just been there much, much longer (3000 years), and is world renowned for its architecture; there is simply no reason why people in Europe would have heard of Durham, NC, unless they were historians of tobacco or had some sort of link to Duke). "World renowned" means precisely what it says on the tin. Durham, NC is 156 years old and doesn't seem to be famous for anything in particular, except the two specialist things I mentioned (and even then...). And that's excluding any of the other arguments on the Durham UK talk page for retaining Durham UK as the main Durham page. Ericoides (talk) 06:20, 12 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That's because no one uses the term "Durham USA". For "Durham"-and-"NC", there are 14.8 million Google hits, while for "Durham"-and-"UK" search yields 7.96 million. Strikehold (talk) 06:39, 12 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, I see. I was wondering what those 7,390,000 results were. Ericoides (talk) 15:04, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I assume you are being sarcastic, but what I was saying is that it would be unusual to use the exact phrase "(city name) USA" to refer to any American city. If you search for both the terms Durham and USA it's not surprising there are a decent amount of results, but it's certainly not commonplace to put those two terms together. It would be a strange construction to add the term "USA" to the end of any American city name unless one is doing it to be ironic. It also looks like there was a documentary that had the term "Durham, USA" in it which might have accounted for more hits. Compare Google searches of "Las Vegas USA" (615,000) with "Las Vegas NV" (36.4 million), or "Raleigh USA" (53,500) with "Raleigh NC" (26.8 million). Or for a town with an English counterpart: "Lincoln USA" (54,600) vs. "Lincoln NE" (5.3 million). Strikehold (talk) 15:56, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. You've got to ask the allied question, what was I thinking when I entered the terms "Durham" and "UK"? No one would ever use the term "Durham UK". They just say "Durham". I'm starting to think that if people do actually say "Durham, NC", then it might be a piece of kindness to let them have an article entitled "Durham, NC"; it might avoid all the sorts of confusion to which you rightly have brought my attention. "Durham" might be reserved for the place that is actually called "Durham". Incidentally, whilst we are on the topic of towns and counties, my search for Lincoln and Lincolnshire returned 678,000 entries; imagine my surprise when I got 7,540,000 for Lincoln and UK! An ad hoc and wholly provisional guess is that counties don't mean as much here in Blighty as states do for you in the U.S., which on the one hand might explain why you are so touchingly attached to the "Durham, NC" thing, and on the other, why you founded the country in the first place all those years ago. Warm regards, Ericoides (talk) 16:25, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You know, I thought the same thing the other day, and am now ambivalent on the matter. It occurred to me that someone looking for the American city might easily search for either "Durham" or "Durham, NC" or "Durham, North Carolina" as their first guess, but someone looking for the English city probably wouldn't think of searching for anything other than simply "Durham". For that reason, I don't think it's probably worth it to make people follow an extra link to get where they are going. Strikehold (talk) 17:00, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not really up to speed on the protocols, precedents and rules for disambiguating, doubtless an enormous subject but one into which I don't really care to dip my feet. In this particular instance, with two such compelling and worthy claimants to the Durham page, it might be worth saying, 1. Durham UK got there first on Wiki and 2. ruling that a town with only one name (Durham; no one says Durham, County Durham) should have precedence over a town with an at-least-sometimes-used-and-not-completely ridiculous secondary name, Durham, NC. At the top of the Durham page we might help the casual reader with something along these lines:

For the U.S. city, see Durham, North Carolina

For all other uses, see Durham (disambiguation)

This way, people searching for Durham, NC, and alighting on the Durham UK page would only be one simple (as opposed to previously, one simple and one less-than-simple) click away from the page for which they are searching. A happy compromise? Ericoides (talk) 17:19, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(un-indent) That's certainly fair, and probably the most satisfactory course. Like I said, I now realize it probably isn't best practice to make readers looking for the English Durham go to the North Carolinian Durham first. And having a hatnote at Durham going directly to Durham, North Carolina would save a step for readers looking for the American city. Strikehold (talk) 17:28, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OK, thanks, I've added that to the Durham page. I like the way how in this city standoff, Durham, NC, has gained its own not-inconsiderable revenge by being the first thing that is mentioned on the Durham UK page. Ericoides (talk) 17:44, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(Please see Talk:Durham for further discussion on this topic, and if desired comment there, in order to keep discussion in one location.)

pronunciation

North Americans might be surprised to know that the UK Durham is pronounced with a silent "H" ("Durum"), rather than as they say "Dur - ham". It is bemusing for Commonwealth rersidents to hear this strong H, as it is in the name of "Birming-Ham" Alabama ( for british speakers, that'd be "Birming-um"). FWIW , Raleigh (NC) is pronounced "Rally" in modern British English, but I think for the locals it's "Raw-ley". It is an irony that many of these US pronunciations may be more authentic in origin than the modern British ones..! Feroshki (talk) 02:22, 4 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

North Carolinians are equally bemused by "Dur-ham," since the local pronunciation is closest to that of the Received Pronunciation style of 'Durr-um' (or, if said very quickly, 'Derm'). — Mustang_DVS (talk | contribs) 21:55, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, Raleigh is also (and perhaps most commonly) pronounced 'Rah-lee' in modern British English. --Panzer71 (talk) 12:34, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Instead of posting surprised musings on a talk page, how about putting a note on pronunciation in the article? I knew County Durham before coming here, but I still don't know how Northern Carolinians pronounce their Durham now. Well, I have to admit, the "strong H" mentioned above helps a lot, that possibility didn't even cross my mind, but I'm thinking more in terms of: first syllable rhymes with "carpark" or rhymes with "curfew".? --BjKa (talk) 15:47, 28 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Page move discussion

I have started a move discussion for Durham since there is no primary use in my opinion. If you would like to participate, the discussion is here. Vegaswikian (talk) 18:22, 24 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

History Section

I worked on the history of Durham adding Civil Rights, and times before the Civil War.

Big Roger (talk) 14:00, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Greater Raleigh Metropolitan region?

On the bottom of the page, I notice that Durham is now a part of the so called The Greater Raleigh Metropolitan region. When did the US Census Bureau change the name of the Raleigh-Durham metro area? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.5.254.34 (talk) 15:41, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Move

See Talk:Durham#Move. StudiesWorld (talk) 13:14, 12 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Structure

Hi. I'm going through all the US Cities (as per List of United States cities by population) in an effort to provide some uniformity in structure. Anyone have an issue with me restructuring this article as per Wikipedia:WikiProject Cities/US Guideline. I won't be changing any content, merely the order. Occasionally, I will also move a picture just to clean up spacing issues. I've already gone through the top 20 or so on the above list, if you'd like to see how they turned out. Thoughts? Onel5969 (talk) 16:28, 12 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Durham"

The usage of "Durham" is under discussion, see talk:Durham (disambiguation) -- 65.94.171.225 (talk) 06:51, 29 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Timeline of Durham, North Carolina

What is missing from the recently created city timeline article? Please add relevant content! Contributions welcome. Thank you. -- M2545 (talk) 14:38, 22 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

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Population update

Hey everyone one thing that can be changed is Durham's population number. Durham,Raleigh and Chapel hill are very popular places to move to so the 2013 population number should probably be updated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Friars22 (talk • contribs) 23:32, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Updated. There's 2014 data up now where we got the 2013. —C.Fred (talk) 00:05, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Why "Bull City"?

"Bull City" is documented in the infobox as a nickname, but it isn't explained in the article. -- Beland (talk) 18:49, 29 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Durham, North Carolina/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: ArnabSaha (talk · contribs) 11:00, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Failed "good article" nomination

This article has failed its Good article nomination. As it has large numbers of {{citation needed}}, {{Unreferenced}} or similar tags.

There are 7 citation needed tags, better source needed tags, unreferenced tags.
Along with these, a lot of portions are unsourced. Each of paras need citations.
Copyvio report shows, a large portion is copied from other materials.
Tables like 'No. of employees' are unnecessary.
Section like 'Notable people' is just a list. Convert it to a prose.
Too much detail in 'Transportation', whereas some portions like 'Economy' are very short.

The article needs serious attention for GA. Refer to other places GA and FA articles. Request for copyedit at WP:GOCE. When these issues are addressed, the article can be renominated. If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to have it reassessed. Thank you for your work so far.— Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe 11:17, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Possible Copyright Violations (addressing GA Review)

As noted in last year's good article review, this article has potentially copied content from copyrighted sources. The reviewer linked to a Copyvio report. The most likely violations are related to these two sites:

Carolana.com - noted as a 78.1% probability of violation. I am not sure if Wikipedians copied from that site or if the author of the site copied from Wikipedia.

City Website - 66.5%. I think it's reasonable to conclude that the site is copying Wikipedia, as it has copied over Wikipedia footnotes.

Per [WP:COPYVIO], I am bringing up this uncertainty. Better Wikipedians than me can probably more easily/quickly sort out the issue. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 19:45, 29 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Updating to note that the Carolana.com content is also present at the Museum of Durham History Firefangledfeathers (talk) 22:22, 29 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Requested Edits

This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest has now been answered.

Sports Section

Remove: Duke University's men's basketball team draws a large following, selling out every home game at Cameron Indoor Stadium in 2009.[57] And replace it with: The city earning the accolade for the the Best City in America for College Basketball Fans by WalletHub. Duke University's men's basketball team draws a large following. In 2019, the Duke Men’s Basketball Twitter account reported 450 straight sellouts at Cameron Indoor Stadium, claiming it as the longest streak in collegiate basketball and the National Basketball Association. [Source: https://twitter.com/dukembb/status/1092842301871792130]

Change 26 sports to 27

Add paragraph: Across all sports, the Duke Blue Devils athletics teams have won a combined 17 NCAA National Championships – seven from women’s golf, five from men’s basketball, three from men’s lacrosse, and one from men’s soccer and women’s tennis. In May 2021, Duke announced Nina King as the next vice president and director of athletics. [Source: https://today.duke.edu/2021/05/nina-e-king-named-duke%E2%80%99s-vice-president-and-director-athletics] King is the first woman and person of color to lead Duke’s athletic department. On campus, there is a Duke Basketball Museum & Sports Hall of Fame that is open to the public.

Add paragraph about NCCU:

The North Carolina Central University athletic program also competes at the NCAA Division I level. [Source: https://nccueaglepride.com/sports/2010/6/29/ATHL_0629105213.aspx#:~:text=In%201971%2C%20NCCU%20was%20one,an%20NCAA%20Division%20II%20conference.&text=NCCU%20remained%20in%20the%20CIAA,(Football%20Championship%20Subdivision)%20membership]

John B. McLendon, a member of the National Basketball Hall of Fame, was an Eagle head coach from 1940 to 1952 and is credited as the developer of the zone press, fast break and four corners offense. He also orchestrated the first racially integrated college-level basketball game in the South in a game against Duke called “The Secret Game.” The men’s and women’s basketball team today play at the McDougald-McLendon Arena. The men made the NCAA March Madness Tournament in 2018 and 2019 after winning the Mid-Eastern Athletic Conference Tournament both years. Dr. LeRoy T. Walker, president of the U.S. Olympic Committee during the 1996 Atlanta Olympic Games after founding the university’s track and field program, and internationally-renowned artist Ernie Barnes, who played football at NCCU and in the NFL before creating famous paintings for the 1970s sitcom “Good Times,” are among other notable people with ties to NCCU Athletics. [Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McLendon]

After paragraph about the Durham Bulls, add:

Tobacco Road FC, a semi-professional soccer men’s soccer team playing in the Premier Development League (PDL) plays at Durham County Memorial Stadium. [Source: https://www.tobaccoroadfc.com/] Nearly 70,000 fans also attend home football games for Shaw University, a Division II program from neighboring Raleigh, NC, played each year at Durham County Memorial Stadium. [Source: https://www.shawu.edu/athletic-giving/]

The Durham Sports Commission was established in 2016 as a collaboration of the City of Durham, Durham County, the Greater Durham Chamber of Commerce and Discover Durham. The 501©(3) is one of seven sports commissions across the state and is charged with creating economic and social impact by leading the community’s efforts to attract, support, and promote sports and recreational events. [Source: https://www.durhamncsports.com/about-the-dsc/]

Culture Section

Change title of Culture section to "Culture and Arts".

After: "A center of Durham's culture is its Carolina Theatre, which presents concerts, comedy and arts in historic Fletcher Hall and Independent and repertory film in its cinemas." add sentence from DPAC Wikipedia: “The Durham Performing Arts Center (DPAC) is the largest performing arts center in the Carolinas. DPAC hosts over 200 performances a year including touring Broadway productions, high-profile concert and comedy events, family shows and the American Dance Festival.”

Move and rephrase “Notable dining establishments are primarily concentrated in the Ninth Street, Brightleaf, and University Drive areas” to: Southern Living named Durham "The South's Tastiest Town”. [Source: https://www.southernliving.com/travel/tastiest-town-durham-north-carolina] Durham has notable dining establishments all over, especially in the downtown, Ninth Street, Brightleaf, and University Drive areas. CraigDotCarter (talk) 14:37, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

None of these requests have been implemented for the simple reason reliable sources were not included. Furthermore, I am unsure whether highlighting only these particular institutions would be undue. Please go over WP:IRS and resubmit with quality referencing. PK650 (talk) 09:32, 10 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

incomprehensible on human terms

Not paying any money is incomprehensible on human terms: Do they speculate him to get tired of the fight? If they only argue the amount, why don't they pay an advance? --Myosci (talk) 19:07, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

ICON073 DiscoverDurham.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 08:36, 16 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

MJ Nissan, durham, nc

Phone ? 107.77.232.154 (talk) 18:23, 25 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"College Heights Historic District (Durham, North Carolina)" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect College Heights Historic District (Durham, North Carolina) has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 April 3 § College Heights Historic District (Durham, North Carolina) until a consensus is reached. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 23:07, 3 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Which Carteret and which king?

I found that the article said

In the mid-1700s, Scots, Irish, and English colonists settled on land granted to [[John Carteret, 2nd Earl Granville|George Carteret]] by [[Charles I of England|King Charles I]].

The first piped link was very strange, linking to one memeber of the family while naming another, and seems to have been the result of a conflict in the two given sources. In fact, it seems, the original grant was to George Carteret and his great-grandson John Carteret, 2nd Earl Granville had inherited the proprietorship by the time the settlement happened. I've tried to explain this in the article.

However, as outlined in Province of Carolina the Charter of Carolina granting proprietorship to Carteret and seven others was made in 1663 by Charles II of England, not Charles I. The story seems clear - that Charles I's grant to Heath was overturned so that Charles II could reward Carteret and the others. I don't like to change this against both the sources we already have, so I'm just going to leave it here for the moment. rbrwr ^± 16:28, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]