Talk:Jerry Brown/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

California Uber Alles

An IP vandal dropped the slogan "California Uber Alles" into the article, which I reverted. But it does pose the question, where is the mention of the song? It used to be in the article, as it was in this random historical version. In the heavy political period before the election, it got cut by someone with an agenda, along with other material that might not have met with that agenda. Actually the text was not cut from the article, but is buried into an inappropriate note in place of being a source. Historically, this song was written about Jerry Brown, a fact that is sourced. It deserves proper mention in the article. Trackinfo (talk) 09:24, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

This many decades later, it seems insignificant to me. Where in the article do you think mention of it should be included? Dlabtot (talk) 20:50, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

All across the project there is a tendency to reduce pop culture references, which used to fill up "trivia" sections. However since the song is directly about Brown, and not just a passing mention, it has a better claim for inclusion. I'd say it'd be best included in the chrono narrative of his gubernatorial terms. A sentence about it could go next to the paragraph on "Governor Moonbeam".   Will Beback  talk  22:24, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Sounds ok to me. Dlabtot (talk) 23:57, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Controversies

An IP has been adding a very large section titled "Controversies", with 19 separate, alphabetical sections taking up nearly 4000 words.[1] In some cases, like the "William Bonin" section, Brown is barely mentioned. Other sections are unsourced, or have no indication of a controversy. Taken together, the added material does not seem like an effort to improve an article and instead appears like POV pushing. More reasonable amounts of this material could be integrated in the article where appropriate.   Will Beback  talk  23:06, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

I concur. Dlabtot (talk) 02:51, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Seconded. Hekerui (talk) 07:05, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Reverse Chronological Order?

Would it not be clearer to list his non-gubernatorial offices in chronological order (earliest appointment listed first) in the second paragraph, as opposed to reverse chronological order? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.10.208.136 (talk) 16:06, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Propose updating Infobox image

The article looks a little stale with the same image for several years, which is clearly out of date and so many freely available images.--Amadscientist (talk) 14:21, 19 November 2011 (UTC)  Done--Amadscientist (talk) 05:27, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

I have reverted the change. The previous picture is a better portrait oriented picture, instead of a picture of a rally. The portrait type photo is the standard for biography articles. I am not against changing the picture, I am just against changing it to a picture of multiple people. Maybe that other photo should be cropped? Int21h (talk)

I agree with Int21h. Dlabtot (talk) 23:21, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Roman Catholicism

The article lists his religion as Roman Catholicism. His predecessor Arnold Schwarzenegger's religion is listed as Roman Catholic.

Why the difference? Montalban (talk) 00:52, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Longevity

Why is there no mention that, since October of 2011, Brown has been the longest serving governor in the state's history? Altgeld (talk) 02:22, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

If there's a reliable source go ahead and add it. Hot Stop^UTC 03:08, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Jackson's Hymietown remark

I changed, “Jackson, who had made a pair of comments that were perceived to be anti-semitic about Jews in general and New York City's Jews in particular while running for president in 1984, was still despised in Jewish communities.”, to “Jackson, who had made a pair of anti-semitic comments about Jews in general and New York City's Jews in particular while running for president in 1984, was still despised in Jewish communities. Jackson's comments were blatantly anti-Semitic as even acknowledged. If a white, Latino or Asian person made sort of comment about 'niggers' and 'niggertown' no one would use a hedged phrase like 'perceived as racist' to describe them.

Lenbrazil (talk) 23:52, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Jerry Brown in popular culture

I had added information about an ironic reference to Jerry Brown in a motion picture ("Jade") and that was removed.

Perhaps the placement (following information on Jerry's presidential bids) wasn't the best, but I don't think it ought to have been deleted. I believe that popular culture, with its enormous impact on people's lives and thoughts and interests ought not be neglected in Wikipedia; and,in fact, it is not neglected in the bulk of Wikpedia entries.

I would suggest that a new section be added to Jerry's bio, titled "Jerry Brown in Popular Culture," or something similar.

Flyingw (talk) 18:21, 2 October 2012 (UTC)flyingw

If you would look, your contributions were not deleted, they were only moved to his public life section. The only part removed was "Ironically, though Brown would soon inaugurate an extraordinarily successful and lenghty second political life, the writer of Jade, Joe Eszterhas, saw his own career go into a tailspin, with none of his screenplays written between 1997 and 2006 ever being produced." because this is irrelevant and original research. In any case, this is not enough to constitute it's own section. Grammarxxx (talk) 22:16, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Personal life needs content and references

Perhaps some information about Sutter Brown.--Amadscientist (talk) 05:12, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. TJRC (talk) 23:26, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

---

Jerry Brownj → Jerry Brown – Typo in current name, and move from earlier article name, which was more appropriate per WP:COMMONNAME, was not discussed. I'm unable to make the move myself, probably because of a redirect. 72Dino (talk) 22:20, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Ugh. I'm trying to get the target speedied. TJRC (talk) 22:45, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Target has now been speedily deleted and the page moved back. TJRC (talk) 23:03, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Jacques Barzaghi

A friend of the governor who filled $100k+ job positions, then was let go from Brown's payroll following a 'domestic disturbance' with his 6th wife. I think Barzaghi is quite relevant to this article subject and merits more detail than the article contains, just expressing my personal opinion that more information regarding Barzaghi and the relationship and ongoings between him and Brown/ Brown's campaign team etc. could be added to the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.26.198.108 (talk) 03:19, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Additionally I think the level of detail regarding such an important event is ridiculous here. All it mentions is 'was let go in 2004' with nothing whatsoever about why. And is 'personal life' really the appropriate section for Barzaghi? If he was getting job positions mentioned above then I would imagine he would be relevant to Brown's career... --82.26.198.108 (talk) 03:23, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Upon browsing the previous talk archives I can see somebody has been keeping an eye on this article... Barzaghi's name has come up before as a subject that's been 'removed' from the page for various reasons. 'Controversy' also seems a touchy subject for this article according to the talk archives. I recommend a POV flag or whatever you guys do for articles like this, I consider it biased, possibly edited in Brown's interests, and I would imagine you guys would want to investigate and fix that. --82.26.198.108 (talk) 03:30, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

• This topic is currently covered with far undue weight in this biography. When it gets into detail of a "friend" back in the early 1970's with very little about his actual marriage and absolutely no mention of the California Agricultural Labor Relations Act, there is a serious flaw with this article. I recommend cutting this section out or reduce it to a couple of short sentences at most. --Oakshade (talk) 19:43, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Death penalty

I am moving this here for discussion. Most of this is not referenced and what is makes claims from a single article. Oddly..there was a far more well referenced section here that seems to have been removed. I will check the history for it.

Like his father, Brown strongly opposed the death penalty and vetoed it as governor, which the legislature overrode in 1977. He also appointed judges who opposed capital punishment. His appointee as Chief Justice of the California Supreme Court, Rose Bird, was recalled in 1986 by voters angry at her opposition to the death penalty. She and two other Brown appointed justices were the first such removals in California history.

--Mark Miller (talk) 21:37, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

I have re-added the section with the accurate information that was fully referenced as follows:

Like his father, Brown strongly opposed the death penalty and vetoed it as Governor, which the legislature overrode in 1977. He also appointed judges who opposed capital punishment. One of these appointments, Rose Bird as the Chief Justice of the California Supreme Court, was recalled by voters after a strong campaign financed by business interests upset by her "pro-labor" and "pro-free speech" rulings. The death penalty was only a tool to use against her, even though the Bird Court consistently upheld the constitutionality of the death penalty. In 1960, he lobbied his father, then Governor, to spare the life of Caryl Chessman and reportedly won a 60-day stay for him.

--Mark Miller (talk) 21:46, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Hm. The "only a tool" is POV; I agree with that POV, but it's an opinion that we're asserting as a fact. You might want to rephrase that as the opinion of a columnist. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 16:48, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I found a quote using "trumped-up excuse" to serve the purpose. Trackinfo (talk) 19:23, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Not a good source at all: it's just a paper someone wrote in grad school. We need a far more impressive source to refer to something as a trumped up excuse. Go to the actual source of the "trumped up" quote: Tom Wicker, In the Nation; A Naked Power Grab (New York Times, Sept. 14, 1986),Sec. 4; Page 25. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 21:46, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I see you read the source and gave the correction here, but did not post it into the article. So I posted the additional direct source (not with an online source) into the article. Trackinfo (talk) 00:35, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, the SFBG is an editorial, I had not caught that so, it should be attributed as the opinion of the writer.--Mark Miller (talk) 00:57, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Fact or opinion?

The section on the 1974 Democratic primary says:

Brown won the primary with the name recognition of his father, Pat Brown, whom many people admired for his progressive administration.

"With" here could be interpreted as "by means of" (i.e. completely due to). Is that actually a matter of political history? I find that hard to believe, considering Jerry's already formidable merits. Perhaps this is a better way to say it?: "Brown won the primary, aided by the name recognition of his father..." AndyFielding (talk) 10:21, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Agreed.--Mark Miller (talk) 02:25, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Bibliography

Have commenced tidy-up of the Bibliography section using cite templates. Capitalization and punctuation follow standard cataloguing rules in AACR2 and RDA, as much as Wikipedia templates allow it; feel free to continue. Sunwin1960 (talk) 06:00, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Censorship Incident Report

Factual information on current actions of California's sitting governor Jerry Brown is being censored in wikipedia. This important civil rights issue concerns the gruesome history of Junipero Serra's treatment of native americans.

Information being censored: Jerry Brown informed the Catholic News Service during his visit to Vatican that Junípero Serra's statue will stay on United States Capitol.

References

I would not be surprised if even this report of censorship is suppressed by wikipedia censors who might not want it known that there are such reports. Powers in America (that rule over corrupt forums like this part of wikipedia) have a long and ongoing virulent history of suppressing native american views/historical versions.

As stated elsewhere, this is a local news story of minor, quibbling interest. No significance to Governor Brown's biography. The constant whining about "censorship" is not going to win anyone over. Tarc (talk) 21:22, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

Clearly there is no independent non-european-ancestry participation in this corrupt english forum. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.240.14.1 (talk) 21:26, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

Response regarding rough start in presenting indigenous viewpoints

Dear new editor from an IP address, you've had a rough start here. Please don't get discouraged yet! It takes patience and persistence to figure out how this website works. Let's see what we can do to make it possible for you to help bring more indigenous viewpoints into the encyclopedia. You can't get a Neutral and representative point of view until you have everyone at the table.

Let me apologize that we have not gotten you connected with the right parts of the website yet, and explain a little about what's going on here. We actually do have editors who are interested in the history and perspectives of Native Americans, First Nations, and indigenous peoples, but they didn't happen to be watching this page at the time you showed up. You can find these editors over at the talk page for Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America.

Also, anytime you are finding that there's nobody else with your background, or nobody familiar with your issues participating here, you can leave a note at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countering systemic bias, to help other editors identify the gap in coverage. They may be able to steer you the right direction.

Thanks for the link! I have added it over at the article on Junípero Serra. For the moment, this information belongs in articles like the Serra article, or articles about the indigenous movement, as it's a very small portion of Mr. Brown's long career. However, this may well change over the next year or two. The situation developing here is pretty interesting, and I'd like to thank you for bringing it to our attention.

Beg to differ with Mr./Ms. Tarc-- although the background negotiations in advance of a papal visit are just another day in the life of a politician with a career long as Mr. Brown's, the overall question of Serra's standing in California is not a "minor and quibbling" local issue :) Serra's role in the region's history has a significance like Washington or Jefferson's roles on the US East Coast ... and Mr. Brown's opinion on it, as a two-time governor of the state, is quite important in setting the tone.

To the new editor: If you are following the issue of Serra's statue, or the general question of Serra's legacy, please start posting the article links you find on the talk page for Junípero Serra instead. That's the first place this information needs to appear.

The statues are really just a way of starting a public conversation about how California views its identity, and how the United States wants to present its relationship with Native Americans to the world. I would like to ask the people interested in Mr. Brown who watch this talk page to check back in on this topic in a few months, as it appears the proposal may come up again early next year, and see how things have developed. --Djembayz (talk) 02:15, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

When someone runs screaming "CENSORSHIP CENSORSHIP CENSORSHIP!" all around the project when they don't get their way, that person gets exactly the treatment that they deserve. If this IP has decided to quit, then we're better off for it. Tarc (talk) 12:28, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

I would also note that the editor in question was pointed to the Junipero Serra article as a better option for adding the information but ignored it, wanting only to put their version in their place, bedamned what anyone else might think. Ravensfire (talk) 14:14, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Don't know, or necessarily need to know, whole backstory; would certainly never want to require someone of possible Mission Indian descent to have to edit Serra's article itself if they object! Hope we will continue to see links to sources about indigenous matters posted on article talk pages, even if the people posting these links are too upset to participate as WP:NPOV Wikipedia article editors. Added material to Serra's page myself. Let's see if it stays up. --Djembayz (talk) 17:49, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

1992 Alaska "primary" "win" error

Alaska is not a primary state. It elects delegates by district caucuses who go on to the state convention. At the 1992 state convention, Brown supporters secured only a single seat for the national convention, because his district delegates failed to show for the convention. A brokered deal got them a single delegate, and she became a "faithless elector" at the national convention when she succumbed to delegation pressure to support Clinton. Activist (talk) 10:49, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

No mention of relationship with Jim Jones?

It is well documented that Jerry Brown had a close relationship with mass murderer Jim Jones who was responsible for the largest number of American deaths in one event until 9/11. Not just someone who made token gestures towards Jones, Brown was a huge supporter comparing the Communist Jones to Martin Luther King and other respected figures. Brown is at least partially responsible for the kid gloves Jones and his organization were treated with. Without this, the 900 or so deaths in Guyana would have never happened. Yet, no mention in article. Systematic bias? Imagine if some Republican governor were associated with a mass murderer... it'd be in the first sentence in the lede. VictorianMutant^(Talk) 19:17, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

After reading your comment, and since I'd never heard of such a thing, I did an extensive search. The only source I found for any "relationship" between then-Governor Brown and ex-communist Jim Jones was a letter in support of the People's Temple that Brown wrote, and his "kissing babies and shaking hands" sharing of the pulpit celebrating Martin Luther King Day in 1976 at the the People's Temple with Jones, as well as with Republican state Senator Milton Marks and Mayor George Moscone. Moscone was assassinated days after the Jonestown massacre by Dan White, a homophobic, right wing radical. Here's a picture of Jones and White: http://ww1.hdnux.com/photos/12/17/56/2685824/7/920x920.jpg The notion that without Brown's support, the "900 or so deaths in Guyana would have never happened" is extremely speculative, as is the contention that "if some Republican governor were associated with a mass murder...it'd be in the first sentence in the lede." While you have only solicited some other editor to insert this into the article, rather than doing it yourself, your comments appear to be extremely POV. I would note further that it was a congressional representative from Brown's own party who was assassinated in Elizabethtown during his attempt to investigate the many allegations concerning the operations of Jonestown. Furthermore, the initial support for Jones in California seems to have come from Republican officials in Mendocino county, who received support from Temple adherents in Redwood Valley, but that's hardly a basis for attacking that party as well. Jones fooled a lot of people for a long time. Activist (talk) 05:04, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 October 2015

Jerry Brown used "tar baby" as a reference. I think this lack of sensitivity should also be here it is his statement. This is the link. http://www.sacbee.com/…/…/capitol-alert/article38121273.html Truthful Thomas

71.195.162.85 (talk) 23:55, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Not done: link is invalid and no context given. --Zackmann08 (^{Talk to me}/_{What I been doing}) 00:42, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 16 November 2015

As a result of the 28-year gap between his second and third terms, Brown has been both the sixth-youngest California governor (the youngest since 1863) and the oldest California governor in history. 173.66.21.51 (talk) 00:18, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. — JJMC89 (T·C) 02:34, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

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