Talk:Jordan–Saudi Arabia border

Content copied over from old Winston's hiccup page

NOTE: the material below has been copied over from the now re-directed page Winston's Hiccup, and does not necessarily reflect the state of the discussion relating to the page Jordan–Saudi Arabia border.

Untitled

A false title, unless the alleged anecdote were sourced. --Wetman (talk) 19:23, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

As a response to the above post I received the following at my Talkpage)

My friend, and Wikicollaborator, on what grounds is an anecdote "false"? It may be unproven, but I find your terminology harsh. You say "A false title, unless the alleged anecdote were sourced", well, the mere fact that the title exists, supported by a simple Google of Winston's Hiccup that brings up sufficient references, makes the case by itself. Your line of reasoning, if I may generously term it as such, would consign a good many very well based Wiki articles to the dustbin, I'm afraid. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 23:43, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I responded:

The (spurious?) "anecdote" concerning the arbitrary boundary lines between Syria and Jordan is uncritically related without sources in the newly-created article "Winston's Hiccup". The anecdote would be "false" if it simply reflected wish-fulfillment on the part of its third-hand retailers, whether on-line or off. To the statement "Thus the zigzag, with the Saudi town of Kaf near its apex has been written into history as "Winston's hiccup"., "irresponsible" might have been kinder, for no "history" has been attested, no credible source added, in spite of the bluster, as of this post. And that's simply the fact. --Wetman (talk) 01:56, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Thus, it is a shame that the article made it to Wikipedia's front page with the squib: "Did You Know ......that Winston's Hiccup refers to the huge zigzag in Jordan’s eastern border with Saudi Arabia, supposedly because Winston Churchill hiccuped as he drew the boundary of Transjordan after a generous and lengthy lunch?"

The article states that "Winston's Hiccup" (note the American spelling) was "written into history". If this were true, the "written" part would have been published elsewhere. Is this article in fact a successful Wikipedia:Hoax? Is it perpetrated to give the impression that Churchill was an arrogant irresponsible boozer? Is it with no other purpose? Or is "Winston's hiccup" [sic] published somewhere, other than mirrored on the Internet? --Wetman (talk) 23:38, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

It's published elsewhere. I'll give you just a few examples. P.J. O'Rourke mentions it in 'Give War a Chance' (1992), available in your local library or, more quickly, quoted here: [1]. Pick up just about any travel guide to the region and you'll find it. Try these, for example Rough Guides [2] or A Jordan travel guide by Matthew Teller [3]. Patti Nickell, a freelance travel writer mentions it here: [4], and it is mentioned here [5]. Musician Al Stewart mentions it on his track 'League of Notions' [6] from the album Between the Wars, as well as on his League of Notions website: [7], as well as here: [8]. There are various other sources that also have it such as [9] and [10].

Your dislike of this article seems to me (forgive me if I am wrong) to be based on a misapprehension about what it says. That Churchill drew the borders of Transjordan when he was under the influence is untrue. That a story was told (the essence of the article) that he did is true, as this article makes clear.

Lastly, any biography of Churchill will tell you that he was certainly arrogant, definitely a boozer, but not irresponsible. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 08:51, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Then editing those public uses of "Winston's Hiccup" into the article will give it an air of legitimacy. Over and out.--Wetman (talk) 10:46, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Wadi Sirhan

"Actually Churchill carefully drew the zigzag to make sure that the huge Wadi Sirhan – one of the age-old Incense Routes[3] and still a vital communications highway between Damascus and the Arabian interior – ended up outside the new emirate."

How could the zigzag keep any route to Damascus from passing through Jordan? Could this be clarified? Bitbut (talk) 05:12, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Serious Copyright Infringement

All semantics aside,

there is some serious copyright infringement at work, either in this Wikipedia article, or in the _Rough Guide to Jordan_. As such, this page should be cleaned up to meet Wiki principles.

See the infringement, word for word, in this preview:

The contributor who noted the problem above raised it at the copyright problems talk page. Unfortunately, content entered here closely paraphrased and duplicated material from the Rough Guide. While a contributor attempted to address the copyright concerns here, the content was not rewritten, which created a derivative work--particularly a problem since some of the source material remains. While facts are not copyrightable, creative elements of presentation - including both structure and language - are. So that it will not constitute a derivative work, this article should be rewritten in the temporary space that is now linked from the article's front. The essay Wikipedia:Close paraphrasing contains some suggestions for rewriting that may help avoid these issues. The article Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2009-04-13/Dispatches, while about plagiarism rather than copyright concerns, also contains some suggestions for reusing material from sources that may be helpful, beginning under "Avoiding plagiarism". --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 17:41, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

References

Unclear

Is it the huge zigzag in Jordan's south-east, as stated in the lead paragraph, or the huge triangle in Jordan's north-east, as appears to indicate the map's caption? --Againme (talk) 17:00, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

What year/date

If it was real, then what year did it occur? THe article should say when and where. Hugo999 (talk) 06:57, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

shape

Until the adjustments in the 1960s it wasn't a sharp point. There was a short north-south segment about 10km long on the 37th meridian. Zero^talk 10:38, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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The veracity of this article

Of course the story about Churchill being drunk or whatever is nonsense, but what I want to question is more basic. What evidence is there that this boundary existed at all before the Hadda agreement of 1925? The NYT opinion piece is not reliable. The Diener-Hagen book misquotes Churchill: their own source does not have Churchill saying that he created the borders of Transjordan with a stroke of his pen, but only "I created Transjordan with a stroke of a pen on a Sunday afternoon in Cairo". Travel guides prefer good stories to accurate history. The IBS document has nothing from before 1925. Sometimes borders exist unofficially before they exist officially, but is there any evidence that this is an example? If it actually dates from 1925, the next question would be whether Churchill had anything to do with it at all. Zero^talk 13:17, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

The Hadda agreement looks like a response to the Ikhwan raids on Transjordan.. "appointed Sir Gilbert Clayton as their Commissioner and Plenipotentiary, to conclude an agreement for this purpose" [11]. "In the middle of the 1920s, Britain began a series of negotiations with the Arabian Sultanates to settle the southern limits of both the Trans-Jordan and the Syrian mandates. The eastern and central sectors were agreed upon in 1925 with the disputed Kaf region being assigned to the Nejd" [12]. So borders were first ratified in 1925, by Gilbert Clayton. Doesn't look like Churchill had anything to do with this at all. A google search doesn't show much coverage of the topic, and of the reliable sources that do, even travel ones, say that it was strategically defined. I.e. like every other border of Transjordan, why should this have a wiki page. Makeandtoss (talk) 15:04, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

This paper on the Transjordan-Saudi boundary has the details. In 1922 there was no boundary, and the tentative line drawn by British bureaucrats did not have the kink that this article is about. The shape decided in 1925 was negotiated over 1923–1925. Churchill is not mentioned as being involved in the negotiations. I think we should nominate this article for deletion. Zero^talk 06:20, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

I am surprised it has been unchallenged for so long. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:15, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

@Freedom's Falcon: You have created an Arabic Wikipedia article for this topic just two days ago, please follow this discussion.. Makeandtoss (talk) 17:24, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

The odd shape of this part of the border exists. The urban legend is also widely reported. Therefore the article should not be deleted on the sole grounds that an urban legend has given rise to the common nickname of a geographical fact. If you wish to pursue this further, please take it to WP:AFD. – Fayenatic London 15:34, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

Widely reported in travel guides and blogs.. [13] Makeandtoss (talk) 18:46, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

Delete

Inauthentic story first of all. Second, notability not demonstrated. Mentioned by two or three travel guides? Doesn't live up to minimum requirements, specifically when its a hoax.Makeandtoss (talk) 19:44, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

@Atlantic306: How does this work? Makeandtoss (talk) 20:33, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

If you want it deleted you should take it to WP:AFD as its not eligible for a WP:PROD because it has already been prodded and deprodded.I don't have a view on the article, it was a procedural deprod because it had already been prodded and deprodded and only one prod is allowed in the lifetime of an article. If you want help setting up the AFD you can make a request on the WP:AFD talk page for someone to set it up, thanks Atlantic306 (talk) 21:43, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

New Jordan–Saudi Arabia border Page, Winston's Hiccup merged

Hello, I create this Jordan–Saudi Arabia border page today. It seemed pointless having one page for the border, and another for a small section of it (viz. Winston's Hiccup), so I have merged the information from the latter into the former and created a re-direct. I have also copied over the old Talk page for reference. WisDom-UK (talk) 14:32, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Jordan location map Topographic.png

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 13:17, 23 January 2023 (UTC)