Talk:List of sports team names and mascots derived from indigenous peoples

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Improper terms[edit]

Note that the name of the organization being portrayed is "National Congress of American Indians (NCAI)" as opposed to "National Congress of Native Americans (NCAI)". That is because while American Indians prefer to be known by their tribe name they mostly prefer "American Indian" over "Native American" to describe them collectively as the latter term is more confusing. "American Indian" is also the correct legal term recognized by the US government. In the future use "American Indian" or "indigenous people" which is the term used by the UN. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.85.181.191 (talk) 12:24, 22 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

cancel culture[edit]

a very wordy title! And a very PC one. Lets clean up this dog pile please.

University of Alaska-Fairbanks[edit]

I removed the U of Alaska-Fairbanks Nanooks from the list. A nanook is a polar bear, and polar bears do not count as an indigenous people. The word comes from an indiginous language, true, but the mascot is still an animal and not a people . On Thermonuclear War 18:21, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Kansas City Chiefs[edit]

The Chiefs were named after Kansas City mayor H. Roe Bartle. If his nickhame was "T-bone" then the Chiefs would be named the "T-bones." So, the Chiefs were not named after Native Americans, but they were named after Mayor Bartle, who's nickname just happened to "Chief." And Mayor Bartle did not get his nickname as "Chief" because of any Native American connection or reference. Rather, he was nicknamed "Chief" because he would personally go to any 4-alarm fire with the Kansas City Fire Department while mayor. His nickhame as "Chief" is from a Fire-Fighting reference, in no way connected to Native Americans. Therefore, I think the Kansas City Chiefs should not be included on this list. Burroughsks88 23:53, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

  • Is that why the football team had a guy in a business suit riding a horse around the field when they scored a touchdown? Wahkeenah 10:17, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

(And of course the old logo, which features a guy in a business suit riding on a horse in front of an outline of six Midwestern states, no?) 24.125.165.58 03:18, 22 May 2007 (UTC) KJO[reply]

I don't know what point your trying to make, but the Cheifs mascot is KC Wolf, not some Indian. The Kansas City Chiefs do not belong in this section. Burroughsks88 23:42, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

  • "Arrowhead Stadium"? Their arrow logo? The fact that they have frequently used other Indian symbols over the years? Even if they were supposedly named for a mayor, their symbol is the Native American... just like the Braves, who were named for Tammany Hall in New York City. Wahkeenah 11:00, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • You need to read the Bartle article and observe that he indeed had a strong connection with Native Americans, although he was not one himself. Also, using your logic, the Atlanta Braves, the Cleveland Indians, and the Washington Redskins should also be removed from this list, because the Braves were named for Tammany Hall, and both the Indians and the Redskins were named for the Braves. I think you would have a tough time convincing the original author of this article to remove those names. Maybe he gave the article the wrong title. It could or should be "List of sports teams whose symbols are indigenous peoples." Wahkeenah 11:46, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also please note that the team's nfl.com history [1] states that the team was named the Chiefs "in part to honor the efforts of Bartle." Check the Chiefs cheerleaders page [2] and you will see that some of their early uniforms were obvious Indian stereotypes. Also, on the page about uniforms [3] please note the Indian-stereotyped logo from their early years in K.C., a running warrior wearing a feathered headdress and wielding a tomahawk. I will concede that the red in their uniforms was already there from when they were based in Dallas, although the red was made brighter after the move to K.C. I will also concede that they have downplayed the Indian symbolism in more recent decades, but it's still there. Wahkeenah 12:15, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • This site [4] points out what I was getting at earlier. K.C. Wolf may be their current politically correct mascot, but it replaced a horse called Warpaint. This courttv.com writeup about several Indian mascots discusses the ambiguity over the mayor vs. the Native American symbols, and confirms what I recalled, that they used to have a guy riding Warpaint around the field. [5]Wahkeenah 12:24, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'd like to add this excerpt from the Kansas City Chiefs article to the discussion: "The name, "Chiefs" was selected by a fan contest, and is derived from Mayor Bartle, who 35 years prior, founded the Native American-based honor society known as The Tribe of Mic-O-Say within the Boy Scouts of America organization, which earned him the nickname, 'The Chief.'" I definitely believe this team should be here, given the evidence Wahkeenah has provided above, in addition to this. Kurieeto 13:41, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for providing even more information on the subject. What do you think about retitling the article, to cover cases where the team is not, strictly speaking, "named for" Indians, but most certainly uses, or has used, Native American or other indigenous mascots, logos, etc.? Wahkeenah 13:52, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'd definitely support this. Kurieeto 14:13, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Indigenous peoples[edit]

If Celts and Vandals were indigenous to North America, it would make sense to list them here. If you have a sports team in Ireland called the Celts, you could list them here. If you're going to broaden the scope of the definition, then any team called "Americans" or "Yankees" has to be listed here also, which kind of nullifies the point of the list. Wahkeenah 23:32, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Only problem is that this isn't a list on teams named after North American indigenous people. No where does it mention North America. So thus, teams on here can have names from peoples from any place, not just North America. Gold Stur 23:48, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You need to read the definition in the link. Indigenous means aboriginal to the same region currently referenced. So if you had a team called the Dublin Celtics, or the Berlin Vandals, then you could perhaps call those "teams named after indigenous peoples." The Boston Celtics and the University of Idaho are not named after any North American peoples. The Celtics are named in reference to the ancient roots of the large Irish contingent in Boston, who would not be considered aboriginal to Boston (though maybe in 1,000 years they will be) and the Vandals may or may not be consciously named after the Germanic tribe, but maybe just because "vandal" is in generic usage as someone who wreaks havoc (such as on wikipedia). The list itself need not be restricted to North American teams, but the rule won't change. Wahkeenah 00:22, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Then under your technicality, the Elora Mohawks must be removed. The Kanienkeh were native to an area east of Elora, which appears to fall in territory that historically was occupied by the Huron or maybe the Ojibwa. Just a thought 24.125.165.58 03:26, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]


I still fail to see where the link to that definition is. And the way in which you present your argument would make checking teams on this list very hard. We'd have to make sure that the tribes listed were in every city and state that the team is located in, which would be a daunting, and almost impossible task. Gold Stur 02:11, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It's in the SECTION HEADING. And they don't have to be in the specific city or state, just in the general vicinity... especially if they use generic groupings such as "Indians" or "Braves", as opposed to "Seminoles". However, maybe the real problem is whatever point the original author of the piece was trying to make. Maybe it would make more sense to rename the article "List of sports team names and mascots derived from ethnic groups. Then your "Celtics" would fit, although I still question "Vandals", since that word has two meanings, and the more common usage is simply "people who deface or destroy things because they feel like it". Wahkeenah 02:23, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The original version of the article is [6] by User:Kurieeto, and it's clear that the author is interested in the history of aboriginal peoples, and I'm not so sure "Celtics" qualifies. Another dilemma: If you make it "ethnic groups", does that include any kind of group of people? "Pirates" and "Buccaneers" for example... which is getting even farther away from the original author's intentions. Wahkeenah 02:29, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I think that the original intention was to have teams listed who are named after Native Americans. I just want this article to be rename from "Indigenous peoples" to "Native Americans" because that's what it's really about. Let's stop beating around the bush and using double standards here. Gold Stur 09:24, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
That would work. I recommend you send a note to the original author and let it know of your intentions. Wahkeenah 14:38, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The original intention was to accept entries for all indigenous peoples, such as Native Americans in the United States, the Inuit in northern North America (re: Edmonton Eskimos), the Maori in New Zealand (re: New Zealand Maori), and others elsewhere. Now this may not be the best workable scope for the article, and I'm fine if it evolves through consensus into a Native Americans in the United States-only or an Indigenous peoples in North America-only scoped list. Regarding ethnic groups and "Pirates" and "Buccaneers", our working interpertation of what constitues an ethic group could be stated in the initial paragraph of the article to be an entity that is contained within Category:Ethnic groups. Kurieeto 13:41, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for helping to clarify the intent of this article. I still question "Boston Celtics". And in contrast to my earlier comments, "Pirates" are not an ethnic group. Piracy is a profession, of sorts. Arguably, nicknames like "Warriors" also denote a "profession", but that nickname is nearly always used in connection with Native American stereotypes. Obviously, not all Native Americans were actually warriors, just some of them, and only when they felt it necessary... just like the white folks. Wahkeenah 13:52, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure that I think pirates and the likes should be included in the article; however, everything you said in regards to warriors can be replaced by pirates and white and fit within the article. As for the Boston Celtics, are the Celts considered less of an ethnic group than certain Native American tribes? Same with the Vandals. Earlier, you also mentioned that, in your opinion, groups listed should be from the location that's in their name. Well, this does not do justice to nomadic Native American tribes and more general Native American terms such as warriors. What I'm saying is that since this is about Native Americans, change it, or include ALL indigneous people, but don't pick and choose. I'd do it myself, but I have never moved an article and will probably make glaring mistakes. Also, as an interesting side note, isn't it the way of most Native American tribes that land is not to be owned and claimed? Wouldn't that mean that immigrants are just as native as the first people to be there? Just some food for thought..... Gold Stur 00:21, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Several things lead me to believe they are ambiguously referencing to Native Americans. Firstly, the horse's name, which has already been mentioned. Secondly, the team logo. If I'm not mistaken, it is an outline of an arrowhead, presumably stone, around the letters KC. Anonymouslyposted 11:59, 21 February 2007 (CST)

capitalization[edit]

Is there a reason why "Indigenous" is capitalized in the article title? I don't think it's a proper noun, and the Indigenous peoples article doesn't capitalize it. ~ Booya Bazooka 15:43, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

How do you fix it? Funnyhat 23:32, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

80%? Really?[edit]

I find it a little irresponsible that an overarching statement saying that over 80% of Native Americans "approve" of Indian-related mascot names is presented as fact in an encyclopedic context based on one survey from Sports Illustrated, a magazine prepared from a predominantly white, middle- and upper-class perspective for generally white, middle-class folk. This article makes no mention of the vast amount of data proposing just the opposite that comes from a variety of scholars as well as grassroots efforts from what this article dismisses as "rank-and-file" Indians. See Ward Churchill's "Crimes Against Humanity", see NARF's (http://www.narf.org) work in this area, see the American Anthropological Organization's efforts to retire sports mascots that can and do have lasting and damaging psychological effects across an entire group of peoples. Further, what distinguishes this particular situation from a team like the Celtics is that natives are victims of literal and metaphorical genocide. Picture a sports team in Germany called the Berlin Rabbis where at halftime a stereotypical mascot ran around with a yamulke and a Torah to boost crowd morale, and the absurdity of the team owner's stance that he was "honoring" Jewish heritage. And then picture a survey coming out in a German sports magazine, proclaiming that Jews vastly approved of this degradation, then presented in an encyclopedia as fact. I mean, come on. Frambach 19:52, 28 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • It might be that "approval" is being read into an attitude that could be more like "whatever". Wahkeenah 00:14, 29 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Even still, it doesn't make sense to make a blanket statement like "...as a whole, Indians [feel this way about a topic]" the way that it doesn't make sense to say "as a whole, Mexicans approve of/feel 'whatever' about NAFTA" when that inference is based on one article from one magazine that does not in any way perform scholarly research of any kind, especially when there is bountiful evidence to the contrary. Frambach 17:24, 29 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • One telling comment is "no great resentment toward the team names". That's hardly a ringing endorsement. I think all you can read into it is that the average Indian doesn't consider Native American nicknames to be a high priority in their own lives. That doesn't mean they approve, it means they don't care, and that's hardly the same thing. And the part about a "disconnect" between Indian leaders and average Indians is also misleading editorializing. It is the activists' jobs to care. The average Indian has other things to do. Wahkeenah 00:04, 30 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
where is your evidence that predominantly whites people read SI? of course I do have to admit a SI survey is not the most reliable source. The whole German/Rabbi thing is irrelevant. The fact that other persecuted groups have sports teams named after them is a valid point, as well as the fact the Fighting Irish is also uses a stereotypical caricature. Is this article about the controversy, or just a list? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rds865 (talk • contribs) 05:52, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

removed OR content from lead[edit]

I find it telling that those of privilege get to decide to maintain status quo so they are not inconvenienced more colonialistic pedagogy. Those who are ignorant of their own racist stance probably think Indigenous peoples should be flattered by their honoring with using our supposed images or representations as people who are brave and warriors. The reality is these views they have of Indigenous peoples of "the old west" because today they view most North American Indigenous peoples as lazy, alcholic,... peoples. I wonder how those same people who don't want to change their team mascots if Indigenous peoples started creating mascots such as the Arian Land Thieves, or Whiteman Givers, or Caucasian Crooks,...? I am sure if mascots were derived from supposed imagery of Jewish or African peoples changes would be made so to deservedly ablige them to be rid of the racist mascot along with an apology, but "83% of American Indian respondents to a Sports Illustrated poll said that professional teams should not stop using Indian nicknames". How can you re-victimize the victim who does not know they are being abused and victimized?"

-added to article's lead by User:64.180.71.20 27 April 2010 (diff1 diff 2) - moved here by PrBeacon (talk) 23:41, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Fighting Irish[edit]

You would be hard-pressed to find many (if any) Irish-Americans who are offended by Notre Dame's nickname. On the contrary, they take pride in the school. Also, this issue has already been settled as regards the Boston Celtics, and it's basically the same issue. Wahkeenah 04:25, 13 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If the definition of "Irish-American" includes those whose great-great-great-granny came from Killarney two hundred years ago, and whose actual knowledge of Ireland and Irish culture is negligible, then I'd say yes, you are correct.
However, since the extent of Irish-ness that typically comes out of this sort is green beer on Paddy's day and watching "The Quiet Man", I'd say of course they're not offended. Because they're not actually Irish. Windyjarhead 04:57, 13 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The whole "Irish people aren't offended by the Boston Celtics and Notre Dame, therefore native mascots are appropriate" argument is totally void. This is about whether or not the people (potentially) being offended are indeed offended (in this case, American Indians), and every indication is an overwhelming "Yes, this is offensive."WallyCuddeford 07:10, 4 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is unfair to say that a stereotype about a person's race is not offensive just because that person is not fully knowledgeable about the history of his culture. I don't know, but I assume there are many Indians who live in mainstream American culture, with very little knowledge of their own people's history. Are these city Indians not allowed to be offended by beer swilling football fans in warpaint and headdresses rooting on the Washington Redskins? The stereotype of the Irish is a drunken leprechaun in a fist fight. Notre Dame's logo is a leprechaun with fists raised to fight. If a 4th generation Irish person is fully assimilated into American culture, does this remove his rights to be offended by this? JohnnyPowerhead 21:42, 29 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There's no movement of Irish people I know of to repeal the Fighting Irish or Celtics mascot. If such a movement builds, it can be evaluated at that time. It has no bearing on whether American Indian caricatures are or aren't offensive to American Indians.WallyCuddeford 07:13, 4 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think it is possible that some Indians aren't offended, its an individual decision. I put on warpaint to go to games where the mascots were animals. What are you arguing? a point of view? this is an encyclopedia where the things that are important are facts. It doesn't matter if the offended should be offended, or visa versa, what matters is that they were offended. instead of making unsupported generalizations we should look for evidence. Is there a study linking the portrayal of American Indians with racist actions?

More about indigenous peoples[edit]

This article doesn't necessarily have to be limited to North America... but Vikings, Swedes, Saxons, Celts, etc. are not indigenous to North America, so teams in North America that reference them do not qualify. To keep in line with what the article is about, if a conquered people in Europe were used as the mascot by a school of the conquerors, then it would fit. Wahkeenah 19:12, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • I think the term indigenous people is the major dispute for the article. Unfortunately since there isn't any one true definition, it can mean many things to many people. For instance, if one were to use the U.N. definition, then a team like the San Diego State Aztecs would need to be removed from the list. I would absolutley be in favor of renaming this entry to "List of sports team names and mascots derived from Naitive Americans" as the existance of such an article is very relevant. My main dispute is that as titled, this list is vastly incomplete. The rename would also eliminate any dispute surrounding historical peoples like the Aztecs. Another issuse is the inclusion of names like Braves, Chiefs and Warriors since those terms aren't peoples but positions/professions. One could also argue that names like Crusaders and Knights should also be included. Once again, renaming the entry would eliminate any dispute in this area. A seperate article "List of sports team names and mascots derived from Naitive Europeans" would solve any dispute involving Irish, Celtics, Scots, Vikings etc.(69.182.87.66 20:09, 6 January 2007 (UTC))[reply]
    • Read the article. That might make it clearer. Wahkeenah 20:24, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

High schools?[edit]

I would like some feedback as to whether high schools within the scope of this page. After a consensus is reached here, the introduction should be modified to clarify the point. I would propose having a separate section for high schools, and if we do, I will add a bunch of information on Kansas high schools. (Breaking up college and pro may also make sense.) Any thoughts? Kgwo1972 19:03, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • You could have separate sections on professional, college and high school. The latter is liable to be anecdotal, since there lots of high schools. It's important to separate the professionals because, unlike amateur teams, they can't be compelled to do anything about their nicknames except through market pressure, which so far has not happened. Wahkeenah 19:25, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Information on high schools does not need to be anecdotal; each state board of education or high school athletic association has records that include athletic team names. In some states (Wisconsin comes to mind) the state board of education has requested each high school with a team name derived from a Native American reference to consider changing it. PlaysInPeoria 06:43, 17 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestions to resolve the debate here[edit]

The arguments about the "Fighting Irish" and whatnot are not improving the project much. I suggest that this list be changed to List of sports team names and mascots derived from indigenous peoples of North America or, perhaps. "of the Americas." I also suggest that a parent list be started--perhaps List of sports team names and mascots based on ethnic terms or nationality. There may be things happening elsewhere in the world similar to the controversy in North America that would eventually justify articles and separate lists for Europe, Asia, Africa or the Pacific Islands. Somebody will have to decide where to put Hawaiian team names.--Hjal 02:50, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Your first option would cover precisely what the original author's intent was. Wahkeenah 09:25, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree with Hjal, using a geographic location in the title would be an approriate change to make. 69.183.4.126 17:02, 28 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • What is the point here? To point out that naming a sports team after an ethnic/cultural team is offensive? OK, I agree, but why limit that to Native Americans? The Irish were treated much the same as Native Americans from the 12th through early 20th centuries: stereotyped, had land stolen away, genocide, loss of native language, forced migration, you name it. Windyjarhead 07:50, 1 March 2007 (UTC)—[reply]
    • Maybe, but they aren't anymore, and Notre Dame U. has been led by Irish Catholics, so effectively they named it after themselves rather than having it imposed on them. Very few American Indians (the Florida Seminoles being an exception) were consulted when teams were named after them. The Indians (including Aztecs) where essentially conquered nations, relegated to stereotypes. That's the point the original author was trying to make, anyway. Now, if you want to broaden the scope to include any sort of mascot, that would be a different story, but it would stray from the concept. Wahkeenah 13:49, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Who were these Irish Catholics who "led" Notre Dame? Windyjarhead 17:02, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • Please read Notre Dame Fighting Irish for an explanation of where the nickname came from. It's a story that kind of evolved. The point is that the school wears it as a badge of honor. How many American Indians consider the Washington Redskins to be a badge of honor? Also, there is the question of what "indigenous" means. There are no Irish "indigenous" to North America. The complaint about Aztecs not being around San Diego has some merit. But the larger issue is, what should the article be about? Wahkeenah 17:45, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

How about "List of sports team names and mascots derived from Indigenous peoples" -- from whereever, unless you specifically tack on the allegedly implied geographic unit. Add the Irish. Add the Vandals. Add the Spartans. Add the Trojans, etc.24.125.165.58 03:31, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Fair enough, but the modifier "Fighting" before the "Irish" is a reinforcement of a stereotype of the Irish as brutish and warlike. Frankly, I don't buy the connection to the Civil War Irish Brigade as a mark a respect. I see a Roman Catholic institution being dismissed as a place for wild Gaelic papists.

Even if the average modern Irish American is to far removed from the penal laws, the Famine and discrimination in modern Northern Ireland to know enough to be offended, the fact remains that the name is a reflection of prejudice, even if that prejudice has now largely faded. Windyjarhead 20:22, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • As you can see from the Notre Dame article, it was initially applied as a stereotype, to be sure. But as with the Philadelphia Athletics and the derisive "White Elephant", or for that matter with the initially-derisive term "Yankee", the ones to whom it was applied wore it defiantly, as a badge of honor, and turned it in their favor. It would be difficult to demonstrate, in most cases, that that situation has occurred with the American Indians. Wahkeenah 20:30, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's fair to suggest that the list of American Indian mascots should get special distinction because of the movement to abolish those mascots specifically. (In fact, that movement is the only reason this list would even be compiled in the first place.) But that distinction can be made within an article. Could we just make this a list of all mascots of human ethnicity/stereotype, with sections like "Uncontested mascots" (Boston Celtics, Montreal Canadiens), Native American mascots (subdivided into various sections as we have now), and non-Native American mascots that have been declared to be offensive or possibly offensive (like the "Fighting" Irish, or anything else around the world)?WallyCuddeford 07:22, 4 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Why not make the name of the article "List of ethnic sports team and mascot names"? That way every group is included, and the same text concerning the American Indian mascots can also be included in that article. It could also be a more neutrally balanced article demonstrating the names of other ethnic groups that are used (rightly or wrongly) as mascots. sf46 02:02, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

to list the American Indians alone would remove some context. That is it would imply that only Indians are the groups used as inspiration for sports team names. The fact that some groups will name a team after themselves shows that the naming itself is not universally offensive. perhaps a note should be added saying that most nicknames derive from something localRds865 (talk) 06:22, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Maroons[edit]

Several colleges and high schools use the athletic team name, Maroons. Are there any cases in which the team name refers not to the color, but fugitive Black slaves? (One hopes not.)

Speaking of which, when Bugs Bunny called another character a maroon, was he calling him a moron or something more offensive?

PlaysInPeoria 07:05, 17 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • For Bugsy to call someone like Yosemite Sam a "fugitive black slave" doesn't make a lot of sense. A "maroon" can also be someone who's "marooned", i.e. "lost at sea", i.e. confused, i.e. not too bright. Bugsy often uses that "What a maroon!" in tandem with other expressions like "What a dope!" or "What an 'ignoranymous'!" Wahkeenah 12:30, 17 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • And getting back to the main question, just check out their school colors, and that should give you the answer. Teams usually call themselves either by a symbol of strength (hence all the Indian warrior names that are now controversial) or by their school colors. No team would want to equate itself with something considered submissive or desperate, such as a slave. Wahkeenah 12:33, 17 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Soulution to European mascot names[edit]

A seperate article has been created here: List of sports team names and mascots of European origin. The article has been nominated for deletion so please if you believe a list of this nature has a place on Wikipedia make your opinion heard. Cmjc80 17:33, 18 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hawaii Rainbow Warriors[edit]

The University of Hawaii is not named the Rainbow Warriors after a certain tribe or indigenous people...it is named the Warrior as a person who is a fighter and not part of any specific tribe or people, which is why the University was not subjected to the NCAA's recent ruling about hostile team nicknames.

Wahine, as the article said, is "woman" in Hawaiian...just like naming a team "The University of Hawaii Women"...just because it includes a word from a different language doesn't mean it is about the culture of that language.

The "Rainbow" part of the team name stems from a 1924 game against Oregon State which Hawaii won. After the game, over Mo'ilili field, a rainbow appeared and reporters started calling the team the Rainbows. In 1999, June Jones (head football coach) got permission to change the name of the football to the Warriors (ESPN College Football Encyclopedia)...One: to embody the idea that football players were fighters and Two: to disassociate the name from the gay community.

The University of Hawaii shouldn't be on this list...besides, hardcore Hawaii fans won't call the the Warriors because that is not what we grew up with.

why not separate article?[edit]

I'm just coming across this page for the first time. I think it would make sense to make the prose its own article, something like Native American names in sports. Although the text clearly has POV issues right now, it seems like a plenty important enough topic for an article. --Allen 02:30, 30 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

List of ethnic sports team and mascot names article[edit]

There's a another article that covers ALL ethnic sports team names. Renaming the current article with "Native American" in place of "indigenous" would avoid most of the controversy that has cropped up. You'd lose a handful of teams in New Zealand and Hawaii, but the lead paragraphs, and the bulk of the team names are related to Native Americans. This is article is a reasonably comprehensive list of Native American names (barring high schools), but is nowhere near complete if your looking at all Ethnic team names. I'm going to be bold and remove all the non-indigenous team names from the article. Go to List of ethnic sports team and mascot names if you want to add those somewhere.

I'm treating indigenous as meaning, "names which have been applied to people indigenous to the general area where the team is based" (general area meaning I'll give a pass to the Elora Mohawks mentioned above.

Exceptional cases; indigenous teams with indigenous names (left these in the list):

Indigenous names involving non-Native Americans (left these in the list):

Yankees and Cajuns may not have inhabited NY/Louisiana since time immemorial, but as identifiable ethnic groups, they are certainly indigenous to these areas (assuming that "Cajun" is not the same as "Acadian")

Native American, but not indigenous, removed from the list:

Should be restored if the article were renamed (I notice that the ethnic group team name article has a few other European teams with Native American names) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.78.97.2 (talk) 21:43, 20 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Merge this article with that one? PrBeacon (talk) 22:25, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Peoria Chiefs[edit]

Apparently the Peoria Chiefs should be moved to "Defunct mascots," as they apparently didn't change their name but changed their mascot away from an American Indian chief and to a firefighter. Badagnani (talk) 18:19, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Recent Additions / Questions[edit]

In the course of editing the article Native American mascot controversy (NAMC) I collected lists of names which I have added here. I notice that the opening section is an extensive outline of a particular issue regarding that controversy, but it is not a good summary of the contents of the list. I am thinking of moving much of that material to NAMC and re-writing this article's opening. There is also the problem of another list, List of ethnic sports team and mascot names, while have the semantically valid distinction between indigenous peoples and ethnic groups, have become mainly duplicates in terms of content. I see no point in maintaining both.FigureArtist (talk) 14:33, 19 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The NY Yankees? Seriously?[edit]

This has been added by three IP address; two of which have talk pages with warnings about bad edits. FriendlyFred (talk) 13:30, 24 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Redskins breakdown by state[edit]

I broke down the list of HS in the Redskins section by state a while ago, and now regret it as being more difficult to maintain. I have changed it back to a school name list which is consistent with the other sections, in particular the longer list of "Indians". FriendlyFred (talk) 19:58, 15 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

WP used by news organization[edit]

I though an article on a website by the WSJ would be good reference until I read that they used this article as a source for the number of teams using Braves, Redskins, and Indians. --FriendlyFred (talk) 15:51, 16 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This a pet peeve of mine but there are several references in this and other articles related to this topic about 'principle' of a high school. I believe the correct spelling is 'principal' of a high school. DayDaemon (talk) 15:38, 14 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

'Principal' - NOT 'principle'[edit]

This a pet peeve of mine but there are several references in this and other articles related to this topic about 'principle' of a high school. I believe the correct spelling is 'principal' of a high school. DayDaemon (talk) 15:44, 14 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of "grievance" list[edit]

Someone has posted (under the reference to "Why Educators Can't Ignore "Indian" Sport Mascots:'Honoring Indians,' Questions for Consideration") the entire list. In other words, the "article" has been duplicated in the Wiki page. This isn't appropriate. I left the reference (which more properly belongs under the "Controversy" page), but removed the detail of the list. If a reader is interested in reading the list, they can click on the reference link. This page is a LIST OF SPORTS TEAMS, not a list of grievances.

It is not inappropriate to summarize the controversy in the opening section of the list, but yes the cited article needs to be paraphrased rather than quoted. I will do so.FriendlyFred (talk) 21:10, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. It is inappropriate. This page is not about the controversy. There is a separate page for that, oddly, titled "Native American mascot controversy". This page is a LIST of sports teams. That's why it is entitled "List of sports team names and mascots derived from indigenous peoples". If you want, include your article on the "controversy" page, not here. Even at that, it is little more than someone's opinion, and extremely one-sided. If you want to discuss the "controversy", at least make a small effort to fairly present both sides. The introduction section was removed in its entirety. Ecgberht1 (talk) 02:51, 13 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

If WP must present both sides, this includes editors seeking consensus rather than making a personal decision as to what is appropriate. FriendlyFred (talk) 20:06, 14 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Organization of this list[edit]

There seems to be no consensus on how to handle teams that have made changes to their name or logo (or gone out of business) so that they no longer use indegenous imagery. There are both separate lists and lists that mix the two depending upon the section/subsection.

Also, Canadian Lacrosse was added to the "Pro" section although there was a mixture of Junior and Senior teams, and I do not know enough about the sport to make fine distinctions between amateur and semi-pro.

All of this brings up the question of the best way to maintain a list with a large number of minor contributors but no fanatics compared to other sports-related lists. If material is to be added randomly, it is not useful, but if the organization scheme is complex it is hard to maintain. There is also the issue of using sortable list templates in some sections, which makes editing an issue for those unfamiliar with it.

Looking for feedback, but if I get none I will likely simplify things somewhat. There is no obvious hierarchy but now it is not consistent from one part of the list to another. FriendlyFred (talk) 18:47, 14 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

List hierarchy[edit]

I have not spent much time on this list article, since I only use it as a reference/repository for data used in other articles I edit. There are obviously a number of editors that know about single teams or sports, and their addition to the list is essential given there is no easily accessible source for the same information. However to be useful a list must be organized and maintained in a consistent way, which is not always the case here, as I note above. I am willing to do the actual work of cleanup, but am requesting comments/agreement before I start.

I also plan to write a lead section that explains the relevancy of the list to other articles without getting into details. Beginning the list with the Native American mascot controversy tagged as "Main" but nothing else is not enough.

The current hierarchy for the list is mainly:

  • Current/Prior use of indigenous name/mascot
    • Professional level: pro or semi-pro/amateur
      • Within Pro: league where there is more than one for the same sport
        • Alphabetical by sport
      • Within Amateur: school/non-school
        • Within school: college, secondary, intermediate, primary
        • Within non-school: age Group (over 21, 18-21, teen, preteen, children)
          • Within all: alphabetical by indigenous name, then alphabetical by location (country, state or province, city)

After cleanup, this hierarchy should be obvious from the TOC so new editor won't be entirely lost, and internal wikilinks can be used to help navigation.

The difficult case is US High Schools, since there are so many and more than one hierarchy might be wanted by different users, e.g. all of the teams named "Redskins" vs all of the indigenous name used in Oklahoma. A sortable list template would be the obvious solution but would need maintenance by someone familiar with the syntax and willing to do that much work (Not Me). I am opting for the existing name, location order.

Other issues:

There is only a short list of mascots, most of them defunct. There are obviously more, but I see no reason not to integrate the mascots with the team name list, since it is often the mascot/logo that identifies the name as indigenous, such as in the case of "Warriors".

There might be a separate section for teams with a majority of indigenous players (relevant for some, not always easy to identify), or could this be part of the non-list format lead section? There is also a small but interesting number of European teams that use "Indian" names.

It baffles me why the subsection of sports figures nick-named "Chief" is even here. Some could be merged into the team list, if they are relevant, such as Louis Francis "Chief" Sockalexis who is claimed by the Cleveland Indians as the justification for their name. Otherwise they are entirely off-topic and should be deleted.

The fictional names are similar to the "In pop culture" sections in many articles, but could easily be deleted. The Mars Greenskins may be funny, but relevant? FriendlyFred (talk) 05:33, 15 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have gone ahead and added text to the lead section which is basically a definition of indigenous peoples, certainly the minimum content needed.FriendlyFred (talk) 19:29, 15 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Extremely one-sided[edit]

(Note: I have moved this section down to its correct chronological order)

This page describes the practice of naming teams after indigenous peoples in entirely negative terms and ignores the arguments in support of it, including from some indigenous groups. --BenMcLean (talk) 19:07, 28 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There are separate articles on the controversy, but being a list there is no reason to cover anything other than the neutral, scholarly view of the subject. I know of no indigenous groups that support these names and mascots, only individuals. FriendlyFred (talk) 15:23, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The Navajo Code Talkers are a group. --BenMcLean (talk) 20:17, 4 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Four individuals representing only themselves are not a group. The tribal council of the Navajo Nation voted to condemn the Washington team name.FriendlyFred (talk) 20:59, 4 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Feminists are said to speak for all women. The ratio of speakers to the group they claim to speak for is about the same. --BenMcLean (talk) 13:33, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This is mixing two different definitions of "group", one defined by opinions, the other by ethnic identity. While Feminists may think those that disagree with the principle of equality for women are mistaken, I do not think they claim to speak for all women (many feminists are men). Tribal governments and organizations restricted to members of Federally recognized tribes are unanimous in condemning native mascots. Such groups are the only ones that can be said to speak for Native Americans generally.FriendlyFred (talk) 16:22, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I never read your comment because of Wikipedia instituting topic bans against anti-feminists in order to ensure that Wikipedia remains pro-feminist and committed to the doctrine that feminism means the principle of equality for women and doesn't mean what feminists actually do in the real world. I do not admit that no groups representing descendants of indiginous people support these team names, but it occurs to me that they wouldn't have to. The KKK could support these team names and it would still be worth noting that somebody, somewhere supports them and that it is in fact a public controversy. This article doesn't cover it like a political controversy. Like most of Wikipedia on issues of politics, it is a tract for the Leftist elite. --BenMcLean (talk) 14:38, 23 September 2016 (UTC) BenMcLean (talk) 14:38, 23 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This is a list article, with an opening section intended only to define what the list contains, not address all the issues involved. It defines "indigenous peoples" with reference to international law, which may be seen as political. The political controversy with regard to indigenous peoples focuses on what rights they have, not who they are. The link at the top of this list to the "Main" article covering the controversy should be sufficient. If there is an official statement by the KKK in support of maintaining Indian mascots, it should be added there with a citation to a reliable source. (PS. WP goes not ban alternative views on topics, it bans disruptive editing of topics...?)--WriterArtistDC (talk) 02:36, 24 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Too American[edit]

Although there are too many non-US examples on here to merit a "Globalise" tag, the page certainly needs to be made more international still. I've been trying to include examples from elsewhere, including Australian and New Zealand teams.-MacRùsgail (talk) 15:02, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, but would not know how to help, having no familiarity with international sports. What would be interesting to me is whether the teams in other countries have mainly indigenous players, or not?FriendlyFred (talk) 15:31, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"Arrows"[edit]

How do we know that the "arrows" nickname is actually from Native Americans? It's not even the actual name of a group or tribe arrows are also closely associated with European archery as well.--Prisencolin (talk) 06:36, 3 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

As with the "Warriors" each school must be verified as using Native American imagery to go along with their name. Rechecking, I removed (commented-out) two that do not currently meet this criteria, and one in Havana, ND that does not appear to exist. The town has a declining population, now only ~71, so it may have been closed. WriterArtistDC (talk) 15:24, 3 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Are Vikings a non-indigenous people (or just not indigenous to America)?[edit]

If the NFL team from Minnesota are excluded on the grounds the this list is for teams/mascots derived from 'peoples that are indigenous to the region where the team is also located' then why include teams like - Kaizer Chiefs, Exeter Chiefs and Malmo Redhawks as none of them make any reference to the relevant indigenous people of where they are located (Zulu/Xhosa/etc, Dumnonii/Celtic/Britons, Vikings).

- or is this primarily a list of teams with names relating to indigenous peoples of the Americas (and a few indigenously named AUS/NZ teams) regardless of where these teams are based - as could be interpreted from the statement that 'the Celtic peoples in their native lands ... lies outside of the scope of this article' which would explain why there is no mention of teams like CA Osasuna, a soccer team from Spain with a Basque name. EdwardUK (talk) 16:43, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It has never been mentioned, but teams located in Europe or the UK using names derived from Native Americans do not belong on this list. If the Vikings and Celtics are excluded, these "Chiefs" must be also. There are so few teams/mascots derived from 'peoples that are indigenous to other regions' there would not be enough for their own list.--WriterArtistDC (talk) 00:53, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Moved short list of non-American "Indians" to opening section.--WriterArtistDC (talk) 01:29, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note on team mentioned above: "Osasuna" is a Basque word, but does not refer to Basque people which is the topic of this list.--WriterArtistDC (talk) 01:34, 3 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

warbury warriors (striker comic)[edit]

I have removed this team from the list of fictional teams for several reasons
1. nothing to indicate name clearly relates to an american indigenous group - it could be European instead, and google image search for "warbury warriors mascot" shows what appears to be a blue elephant
2.Teambased in England - so even if name is 'indigenous' their location places them outside the scope of the article EdwardUK (talk) 14:51, 25 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Article size: Rename / split?[edit]

This list is very difficult to maintain given its coverage of the entire world, which also leads to questions regarding what belongs here. There could be seperate lists based upon continents and for North America also levels of play:

  • List of professional team names and mascots derived from the indigenous peoples of North America
  • List of collegiate team names and mascots derived from the indigenous peoples of North America
  • List of amateur team names and mascots derived from the indigenous peoples of North America
  • List of team names and mascots derived from the indigenous peoples of South America
  • List of team names and mascots derived from the indigenous peoples of Asia
  • List of team names and mascots derived from the indigenous peoples of Africa
  • List of team names and mascots derived from the indigenous peoples of Europe
  • List of team names and mascots derived from the indigenous peoples of Australia

All of these drop the word "sports" which seems redundant. The current list would contain whatever content applies to all others.--WriterArtistDC (talk) 02:22, 15 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Proceeding with the above, but first moving some content from here to List of ethnic sports team and mascot names, which I am also revising.--WriterArtistDC (talk) 02:30, 13 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Splitting is a good idea. Is there going to be enough teams to satisfactorily populate lists for Australia/New Zealand (Oceania?), Asia, Europe, and Africa? Small lists are okay, but in cases like this it risks burying info. It might be simpler to have this still be a list which also acts as a list-of-lists, similar to List of international schools, for example, which links to sublist articles when they exist. Grayfell (talk) 04:46, 13 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I think that the article List of ethnic sports team and mascot names could become such a list of lists, with geographic sections for the short lists and links seperate articles on the North American lists. See: Talk:List_of_ethnic_sports_team_and_mascot_names#Distinguishing_two_related_lists_and_what_the_lead_section_should_contain--WriterArtistDC (talk) 07:07, 13 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • First split completed, colleges. PS. Sorry for the mass of small edits, but the Middle school section had some entries going to the re-titled Secondary school section, others to the non-school youth league section and several that were likely defunct (merged/closed/renamed), could not be verified and were deleted.--WriterArtistDC (talk) 05:33, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Second split completed, secondary schools (more international that "high schools" and includes middle/junior high).--WriterArtistDC (talk) 16:54, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Reducing article[edit]

Since the three elementary schools have dropped Native American references, I removed that section. There may be other schools, but no good source of information, since ES sports are inter-mural and not publicized, and team names/mascots are not often mentioned, even of the school's own site.--WriterArtistDC (talk) 04:36, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Youth lacrosse teams[edit]

References: team that is changing its name.

Youth lacrosse would be a new category in the list. --WriterArtistDC (talk) 03:18, 27 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of off-topic section[edit]

In spite of the list title, which is already wordy, the opening section defines the topic as indigenous peoples of the Americas. There could be another list of team names such as Vikings, Celtics, etc.--WriterArtistDC (talk) 14:42, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The United Nations definition of Indigenous Peoples is "the descendants.. of those who inhabited a country or a geographical region at the time when people of different cultures or ethnic origins arrived. The new arrivals later became dominant through conquest, occupation, settlement or other means." Spartans do not fit this definition. WriterArtistDC (talk) 18:07, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Contradictions?[edit]

Difficult to gauge what counts on this page? Blyth 'Spartans' does not for example. Well OK, Blyth was not a homeland for the native Spartans, neither was Scotland, Prague or Rotterdam. However, Exeter Chiefs was removed, despite the British Dumnonii Neolithic tribe dominating the area of modern day Exeter for 4000 years & having a Chief. Why was was it scrubbed?

The UN definition of Indigenous peoples requires that there are current descendants that maintain the language and cultural traditions of the people named, and identify as such. As an American with 66% Irish and Scottish ancestry, I would agree that all the Celtic speaking peoples in the UK (but not their descendants in Boston) qualify as Indigenous. Is this true of the Dumnonii? If not, they are one of the ancestral people of Britain, as the Spartans are of Greece.
Exeter attracted attention only because they dropped an American Indian logo and adopted the Dumnonii to continue being the Chiefs. I had not gone over the list to check if there are other ancestral peoples added, but Aztecs and Mayans qualify for removal also. In the US, the San Diego State Aztecs were not cited by the NCAA as having a Native American mascot, and it remains.--WriterArtistDC (talk) 14:36, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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