Talk:Lists of state leaders by age/Archive 1

Muhammad Najib ar-Ruba'i

Muhammad Najib ar-Ruba'i 1904-2004? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.30.185.232 (talk) 07:32, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Seems to me that there is no clarity on when this person died, so cant be added--Rye1967 12:24, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

It is not even certain that he is dead as the (unsourced) report on his biography states only that he is 'presumed' dead. However, unless there is conclusive proof that he was actually alive in 2004 then we cannot be sure he actually made it to his 100th birthday at all. DerbyCountyinNZ 12:40, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Look at that page. He dies in 1983. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.34.219.129 (talk) 14:43, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

• Abdul Majid Kubar born 1909-still living?
• Phan Huy Quat born 1911-still living?

According to rulers.org both of these are deceased (but there is no DOD for Majid Kubar) --Rye1967 21:13, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

The former Presidents Joaquín Balaguer (Dominican Republic) and Víctor Paz Estenssoro (Bolivia) is not on the list of "Oldest state leaders"; I added to Balaguer, and former President of Colombia Manuel Antonio Sanclemente to the list "Oldest ever serving state leaders". --Ricardo Bello (talk) 06:04, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

List of longest reigning monarchs of all time

The list presented is missing a large number of the ones on the page listed. Instead of adding the list on List of longest reigning monarchs of all time i have fully removed the section with the exception of the link. 213.238.233.27 (talk) 17:31, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Iloilo

I changed the beginning of Iloilo's term to 2000, but someone reverted me, claiming it started in 2007. I had this argument with someone else back at the time these events were taking place in late 2006/early 2007. Bainimarama assumed presidential powers in an acting capacity, but didn't take the title of president formally; therefore Iloilo has been in office continually since 2000. Everyking (talk) 03:55, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I did the revert. His bio on here states (in the sidebox) that he assumed office on 4 January. Unless someone suitably familiar with the constitutional legalities involved (certainly not me!) can justify changing that to his original start date in 2000 then this page should follow the 2007 date. DerbyCountyinNZ (talk) 05:18, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Abdullah Yaqta

What about him? 84.134.61.155 (talk) 19:23, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Until there is some sort of reference on his page his details are really too vague for him to be added here.DerbyCountyinNZ (talk) 22:39, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Yasuhiro Nakasone

He should be on this page!84.134.96.185 (talk) 18:27, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Done. DerbyCountyinNZ (talk) 03:55, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you.84.134.119.184 (talk) 18:41, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

List of Longest Lived State Leaders

This list has reached nearly 100 persons. Unless there are any objections I think it should have its own page with Top Tens here for the oldest ever and the oldest living. Cheers, DerbyCountyinNZ (talk) 05:40, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree --Rye1967 (talk) 08:26, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Park Sung-chul

He should be on the list.84.134.112.193 (talk) 17:34, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

It would seem so. However his page contains the absolute minimum of information and no references whatsoever so how can we be sure he is still alive? DerbyCountyinNZ (talk) 23:49, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I think so.84.134.92.179 (talk) 19:42, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Nguyen Ngoc Tho

What about him?84.134.121.12 (talk) 20:40, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

No, as it's unknown if he's living or not. --RandomOrca2 (talk) 20:58, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Nguyen Ba Can

What about him?84.134.114.29 (talk) 08:34, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Jack William Pithey

What do we know about him?84.134.119.201 (talk) 11:39, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Apparently...nothing! Nothing on the web about his death. And if he's still alive that's pretty sgnificant. He seems to have disappeared after leaving office!! DerbyCountyinNZ (talk) 12:14, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Juan Bosch

He should be included.84.134.57.52 (talk) 11:45, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Aleksandr Iordanovich Mirtskhulava

What about him? Is he still alive?84.134.114.129 (talk) 19:12, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Sheikh Mukhtar Mohamed Hussein

Seems to be alive.84.134.77.239 (talk) 12:21, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Lots of people missing

All-time oldest, 85+ years:

• Pharaoh Pepi II Neferkare possibly ruled Egypt from age 6 to 100, but this is disputed.
• Pope Leo XIII was the oldest age-verified Pope at 93, though I doubt the Pope qualified as a head of state in 1903.
• Ton Duc Thang, President of Vietnam, died in office at age 91.
• Pharaoh Ramesses II ruled Egypt until his death at perhaps 90/91 years old.
• King Gustaf VI Adolf of Sweden ruled until his death at 90.
• Félix Houphouët-Boigny was President of Côte d'Ivoire until his death at 88.
• Konstantinos Karamanlis, President of Greece, left office at age 88.
• Emperor Hirohito of Japan ruled until his death at 87.
• King Olav V of Norway ruled until his death at 87.
• Juho Kusti Paasikivi, President of Finland, left office at age 85.
• Nouhak Phoumsavanh, President of Laos left office either at 83 or 87 (Guinness listed him as the oldest head of state at the time with the younger age, which would have him younger than Malietoa Tanumafili II).

All-time youngest... since monarchs are included, and the youngest listed here was aged 16, this list is thoroughly lacking:

• John I of France was born king and died 5 days later, making him the shortest-lived head of state of all time with reasonable certainty.
• Alfonso XIII of Spain was also born king.
• Louis XIV of France became king at age 4.

Youngest current:

• Well, Andry Rajoelina is still missing.

By no means would these additions make the lists complete, I merely included the ones that came in to mind right away. --Anshelm '77 (talk) 21:42, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Re-organising

At present several sections in this article have been set at rather arbitrary limits ("born before 1931" or ""born 1965 or later" etc). I suggest that these be replaced with Top 10 lists for consistency and new articles created with more comprehensive lists (as was done with List of longest lived state leaders). It should be possible, though rather time-consuming, to produce a List of currently serving state leaders by age and a List of youngest ever state leaders. Thoughts? DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 00:01, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

I have reduced all lists to top 10 only for consistency. If users want more comprehensive lists they should be created as articles in their own right. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 10:17, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Youngest currently serving state leaders

Is it possible to reduce the list to those born after 1965? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Searcher 1990 (talk) 13:49, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Chau Sen Cocsal Chhum

You have added him to the top 100 hundred list, shuldn't he be added to the top ten list as well? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.69.171.71 (talk) 10:25, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Atifete Jahjaga

As she is a head of only partially recognized state, should we add her to the "youngest leaders" or not? HeadlessMaster (talk) 14:58, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Andrew Holness

He is no longer the Prime Minister of Jamaica so should be removed from the list of current youngest leaders list and 9 and10 need to moved up. I have no idea how to find the new no. 10 though, so I'm reluctant to do it myself. Pascal (talk) 14:17, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Hastings Banda

The number of days is missing. Then it says "(? disputed)". Leads to think that maybe only the number of days is disputed. Better add this detail according to the date of birth in the article, then add just "(disputed)" which will be now clearly for the entire length of his life. According to the article also his birth year is disputed. gidonb (talk) 09:23, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Pope Leo XIII

Shouldn't Pope Leo XIII be included in the list of the oldest ever serving leaders of states? He was the head of state of the Vatican and died at the age of 93 which would make him third in the list. If he's to be included I suggest not to remove anyone but to extend the list to all leaders of states who served at the age of 90 or older. I think that wouldn't extend the list a whole lot. --Maxl (talk) 11:04, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Added. The list stays at 10 to be consistent with the rest of the article and with other similar summary articles such as Oldest people. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 18:39, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Luitpold, Prince Regent of Bavaria

Do Prince Regents qualify for the list of oldest serving state leaders too? In that case Prince Regend Luitpold of Bavaria should be entered into the list. He was 91 years 9 months old at his death which would put him in 6th position on the list. He ruled Bavaria for King Otto, who was incapacitated, from 1886 till his death on Dec 12, 1912. His entry into the list would, unfortunately, mean that Shimon Perez would be kicked from the list if you insist on not extending it. I see no problem, however, with an extension as long as it isn't excessive, even if there are other lists which are confined to 10 entries. There's no rule that all lists must be the same, is there? --Maxl (talk) 12:41, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Telmo Vargas

I'm pretty certain that Telmo Vargas qualifies as being among the oldest state leaders, even though he was head of state of Ecuador for only one day, but I wanted to make sure that no one had any objections before I go changing the "oldest living" and "oldest ever" lists, as well as this page. Canadian Paul 18:42, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

We should add him. AlexanderN1982 (talk) 17:52, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Oops, forgot about this but, since no one objected, I went ahead and added him. Canadian Paul 21:34, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Rename to Lists of state leaders by age

This page name is too generic, as it includes only lists sorted by age (a somewhat arbitrary, but interesting criteria). In order to make the title more WP:PRECISE I propose renaming this page to Lists of state leaders by age, and repurposing the old title as a simple index to all lists of state leaders. Pburka (talk) 16:15, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Done. Pburka (talk) 02:18, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

HoS representatives?

IMHO, we should delete Head of state representatives, which includes governors-general. GoodDay (talk) 18:25, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

41.251.7.41 (talk) 15:32, 18 October 2016 (UTC)Agree. What do others think?41.251.7.41 (talk) 15:32, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

I would list them separately. I mean, delete from the main list and add to a new list. StjepanHR (talk) 23:18, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

This discussion, at what I would consider the parent article for this topic, resulted in the consensus that Governors-General be included with other Heads of State. It would be inconsistent to have them included in one list but not in the related lists such as this one, List of the oldest living state leaders (no-one is old enough to be on this list at the moment) and List of longest-living state leaders (G-Gs were list but removed at the beginning of the year without any apparent consensus). DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 03:41, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

I didn't know about this discussion. Agree is is necessary to keep consistent. I still disagree with the decision, but if consensus was found in the past we should apply it. In this case, Sir Cuthbert Sebastian should be included in List of the oldest living state leaders.41.143.38.110 (talk) 07:55, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

Unnecessary split?

When the original lists were split into "Term-bonded" band "leaders for life" I was concerned that not only was there no discussion but also exactly what the definitions were and what the point of splitting them was anyway. Are there any other articles listing state leaders which are split in this way? Certainly List of the oldest living state leaders and List of longest-living state leaders make no such distinction. And even within this article the split is only made for the top 2 sections. For the sake of consistency and clarity I think the split should be removed. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 20:57, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

As no-one has provided any justification for splitting the lists I have now returned them back to their prior state. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 09:50, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

I believe the split makes sense, because a leader-for-life... leads for life, so it's not that surprising to have old leaders-for-life, while it might be more interesting to some to know who are the oldest persons elected for office in an old age.

Won't change it back before others have expressed their opinion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 105.158.94.0 (talk) 15:43, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

I agree with the IP; it's inherently more difficult and thus more notable to be (re)elected/appointed at a high age than just becoming old in a for-life office. (Note that this argument does not apply to splitting the lists of oldest-living/longest-lived leaders since they don't care for the age at which a person ceased to be leader.) With the merger, the list of "10 oldest ever serving state leaders" is completely dominated by leaders for life, so valuable information is lost. I'd therefore support reverting the merger, or alternatively expand the merged lists to top 20 or so, so that several of the old elected leaders are again included. And yes, there is another article which makes a similar distinction (between monarchs and non-monarchs): List of youngest state leaders since 1900 (linked from this article as well).--Roentgenium111 (talk) 17:43, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

The longest-lived lists are not dominated by leaders for life, in fact quite the opposite. The previous "currently serving leaders for life" included 4 governors-general and not only do the vast majority of governs-general not in fact "lead for life", some have a fixed term. As to whether "important" information is missing depends on a subjective assessment. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 03:22, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

I never claimed that the two "longest-lived" lists are dominated by life leaders; naturally those lists are not, since the life expectancy of (former) term-bounded leaders is the same as that of life leaders. But the list of "10 oldest ever serving state leaders" IS completely dominated by leaders for life (9 out of 10). Any governor-general with a fixed term would naturally belong to the term-bounded list (if we consider governor-generals "state leaders" at all, which is another discussion), but all the 4 governors-general which were on the list held office only limited by "Her Majesty's pleasure" according to the WP articles of those offices. (Only Governor-General of the Bahamas claims that they "usually end their term within five years", but this is contradicted by the fact that 5 of the 8 past GG's listed there ruled longer, with no common "term length" apparent.) --Roentgenium111 (talk) 19:53, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

So do we have consensus to reverse the change? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 105.156.104.186 (talk) 22:10, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

This needs greater input. I will see if I can find the appropriate projects. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 22:47, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

My 2 cents is that it's OK either way, but on balance, probably more useful to split the "List of state leaders by age" into 'for-life' and term bonded, provided that the distinction is reliable sourced. LK (talk) 05:40, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

10 oldest state leaders (since 1945)

This list should be with the age when they left office instead of when they took office. Wykx (talk) 19:27, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

There is no justification for having 2 lists on the same topic. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 21:47, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

The argument that the youngest leaders is since 1945 is invalid. 1 list for each is sufficient. That the youngest list is "since 1945" is arbitrary, any cutoff could be used. We don't need multiple lists covering the same subject, that is WP:LISTCRUFT. Ideally youngest ever would be used but that would consist entirely of positions inherited by under-10s. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 22:19, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

William Pitt

Why is William Pitt，at 24，missing? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.146.186.204 (talk) 09:24, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Because he served before the period covered by the "youngest" list. LE (talk) 22:37, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

Mahathir Mohamad

Has he actually been sworn in yet? Let's not jump the gun. LE (talk) 22:38, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

Raul Castro's status

There's a bit of a disagreement over whether Raul Castro belongs in this article, now that he's no longer President of Cuba. He's still First Secretary of the Communist Party of Cuba. GoodDay (talk) 19:30, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

The party is not identical to the State. In a one-party state, there is no doubt that the links between both are strong, but they are distinct.

As Secretary-General of the Party, he certainly unofficially remains very influent, maybe even more then his legal successor. But officially, he no longer holds any state responsibilities.

I will revert the change as the editor changed it unilaterally several times without discussing his change with others. He is welcome to come and defend his point of view here, but for the moment there is clear consensus that Castro doesn't belong to this list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.130.3.63 (talk) 07:51, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

"Raúl Modesto Castro Ruz (Spanish pronunciation: [raˈul moˈðesto ˈkastɾo ˈrus]; born 3 June 1931) is a Cuban politician and leader who is currently serving as the First Secretary of the Communist Party of Cuba, the most senior position in the Communist state[...]"

"Raul Castro to lead Cuba's Communist Party until 2021". FRANCE 24. 19 April 2018. "I confirm to this assembly that Raul Castro, as first secretary of the Communist Party, will lead the decisions about the future of the country," Diaz-Canel said. – Jwkozak91 (talk) 00:56, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

If Raul Castro doesn't belong neither does Kim Jong Un since he is neither head of state nor government. He belongs. LE (talk) 22:34, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

Raul Castro is the leader of the Communist Party. But the party is officially dissociated from the State, although both are closely linked in practice. He certainly has strong unofficial influence over Cuban politics, maybe even more then the official President, but he no longer has any OFFICIAL responsibilities in the Cuban State.

Kim Jong-Un is not only party leader, but also Supreme Leader of North Korea, which makes him an official head of State. Kim Jong-Un is a head of State, Castro is not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 105.156.104.169 (talk) 08:22, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

North Korea has a head of state (Kim Yong-nam) and a head of government Pak Pong-ju...the posts that qualify people for this list in usual usage, apart from the generally accepted designation of the leaders of the ruling parties of states that constitutionally follow ruling parties. "Supreme Leader of North Korea" is just a popular unofficial way of referring to the party leader in that country (he has official titles as Chairman of the Worker's Party of Korea and State Affairs Commission).LE (talk) 01:44, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Military Head Of State

Do we consider Military Head of State in this articles?Olaniyan Olushola (talk) 08:09, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

Juan Guaidó

Why not include interim President of Venezuela Juan Guaidó? He is de facto Venezuelan President though disputed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 240E:B5:4106:2F68:1:1:3BDB:CA9F (talk) 01:31, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

Sebastian Kurz

Should Sebastian Kurz not be included in this list? He is younger than the Finish PM, so would be at number 1 on the list of youngest leaders. RJE42 (talk) 18:57, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Only once he has been confirmed as a state leader. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 04:16, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

How would that be done? RJE42 (talk) 20:52, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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Hyphens

What is the rule about hyphens? We have a mix of "10 oldest serving" "the oldest-serving" "List of longest-living state leaders" "List of oldest living state leaders" "Longest-lived state leaders" etc. Wykx (talk) 06:52, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

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DPR and LPR

Can leaders of unrecognized states be included in the list? Or only officially recognized? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Doomer1557 (talk • contribs) 15:38, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

I wouldn't include unrecognized states. Wykx (talk) 19:49, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Juan Guaidó (again)

Should I add Guaido in the list? More than 50 countries recognized him as president of Venezuela. I think that he can be included in the list, but without numbering (for obvious reasons). 'Doomer1557' ( talk) 11:15, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

No, because he's not the president. PS- Why does your post say 14:57? GoodDay (talk) 14:34, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Acting President? 'Doomer1557' ( talk) 16:47, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

He has no powers & duties of the office. His is just a title. GoodDay (talk) 16:50, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

This is understandable, but de jure he is still Acting President (although disputed). 'Doomer1557' ( talk) 16:59, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Meaningless title, without the power. He's nothing more then an American puppet, with the USA trying to get control of Venezuela's oil. GoodDay (talk) 17:55, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

PS - Why are you mis-dating your posts? GoodDay (talk) 17:56, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

1. This does not sound like an objective position.

2. Strange that you care about this. 'Doomer1557' ( talk) 18:03, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

With all due respect, would you please sign your posts correctly. It's quite annoying that you're refusing to do so. GoodDay (talk) 18:10, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Well. I think that Guaido can be added, but without numbering, in italics and with Note that his title is being disputed. 'Doomer1557' ( talk) 19:27, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Since you're now ignoring my request to sign your posts correctly? I've nothing more to say to you. GoodDay (talk) 19:37, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Ok. Bye. Does anyone else want to speak out? 'Doomer1557' ( talk) 19:41, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

You have no consensus to add him to the article. GoodDay (talk) 14:00, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Because the only one who enters into the discussion exposes his subjective point of view as a fact. There are baby kings in this article. I think that even Guaido has more authority than them. 'Doomer1557' ( talk) 14:06, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Open up an RFC on the matter, if you're not satisfied. GoodDay (talk) 14:07, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Let’s without abbreviations. I'm not very good at it. 'Doomer1557' ( talk) 14:10, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

If your english skills are poor? then English Wikipedia isn't the place for you. GoodDay (talk) 14:11, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

I value my english skills very well. The problem is only with abbreviations. And let me decide for myself what to do. 'Doomer1557' ( talk) 14:14, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Until you get a consensus for what you want? you don't add Guaido to the article. Something else, you'll have to learn on English Wikipedia. GoodDay (talk) 14:19, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

You demand discussion and consensus, but yourself are rude and change the topic. It is impossible to have a discussion with you. I ask a third person to join in and express their opinion on the topic. 'Doomer1557' ( talk) 14:23, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Open up a WP:RFC & several folks will chime in. GoodDay (talk) 14:24, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Should we include de facto ruler Mohammed bin Salman

Should Mohammed bin Salman be added in the youngest leader lists as well as the comment: "De facto leaders are listed in italics and are not given a numbered rank"? Wykx (talk) 12:45, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

By this reference Mohammed bin Salman is called de facto ruler of Saudi Arabia. He is 34 years old. Wykx (talk) 23:10, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

No. His father hasn't designated him as regent. GoodDay (talk) 23:25, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Indeed but isn't he de facto? Wykx (talk) 06:52, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

I’ll just rewrite what I wrote before.

The article states that the list includes only people who officially occupy the position of head of state or head of government (or a position that de facto makes you head of state or government). Mohammed bin Salman is Deputy Prime Minister. If another person were in his place, that person would not become the de facto head of government. It also contradicts the name of the list: "10 youngest serving state leaders". With Mohammed bin Salman, there would be 11 of them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Doomer1557 (talk • contribs) 20:21, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

In the case of Mohammed bin Salman he is de factot ruler as per the source quoted. He is not ranked with a number because this is not an official state leader as it's de facto. Wykx (talk) 20:34, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Why is there Raul Castro on the list, although he is not head of state or government?

Because he hold positions that, according to the constitution, have enough powers to be more important than the heads of state and government.

Mohammed bin Salman is the First Deputy, which does not make this post automatically important. He possesses such power because of his authority, but not because of his post. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Doomer1557 (talk • contribs) 21:10, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

That's why it's called de facto in contrast with de jure. Wykx (talk) 21:31, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

I wrote to you that according to the rules of the article about the current leaders (and, accordingly, according to the rules of this article), to be a de facto leader of the state, you need to take POST, which according to the constitution is not the post of the head of state or government, but DE FACTO is on par with these posts.Do you understand? Prior to this, Muhammad bin Nayef was the first deputy, but he was not a de facto leader. Right? If you list all the people, de facto ruling countries, but not holding the necessary posts, then the page will turn into a trash. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Doomer1557 (talk • contribs) 21:55, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Do you have an example? Wykx (talk) 11:34, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Vladimir Plahotniuc is an oligarch and a Moldovan deputy. He was the de facto leader of Moldova until 2019. In the list of current world leaders (on which this article is based) he was absent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Doomer1557 (talk • contribs) 14:25, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Maybe he could have been added provided there was a source for that assumption. Wykx (talk) 10:41, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

There are many sources that called Plahotniuc the real ruler of Moldova. In summary: a de facto leader must hold a position that would make him a de facto leader. I have provided enough arguments to remove your edits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Doomer1557 (talk • contribs) 12:17, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Then should be able to give at least one. Wykx (talk) 12:39, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

"De facto" is NOT "officially". Exclude. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 22:22, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Even if not in the numbered list? Wykx (talk) 11:34, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Ordinary math. The title says "10 Leaders." If there will be at least one leader in it (even if it is not numbered), then the number of people on the list will exceed 10. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Doomer1557 (talk • contribs) 14:30, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

The question was 'not in the numbered list', because he is not recognized officially so that's clear he cannot be included in the count but he is de facto leader. PS: you should sign your posts with 4 ~ at the end your messages. Wykx (talk) 10:41, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

No,that would simply be list cruft. If/when he becomes official then he can be included. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 11:30, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Isn't a de facto state leader a state leader? Wykx (talk) 11:50, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

No. If the authority is not supported by the position, then the person is not included in the list. The discussion is over. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Doomer1557 (talk • contribs) 12:17, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

That's the purpose of the italics and the mention "De facto leaders are listed in italics and are not given a numbered rank" to mention that difference. I extent the discussion to a RfC so that we have more external point of views. Wykx (talk) 12:39, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Do you understand that the statement "de facto leader" is rather dubious? If one site mentions that citizen X (a janitor by profession) is the actual leader of Zimbabwe, he will not be included in the list. Why? Because we need official documents confirming this. For example, if the King of Saudi Arabia issues a decree giving the First Deputy powers that de facto put him on a par with the Prime Minister, then he will be on the list. Even without the "de facto" mark. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Doomer1557 (talk • contribs) 14:22, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

The source mentioned in the article was the BBC [1] but it's also mentioned by Al Jazeera [2], The Economist [3], the Guardian [4], NPR [5] etc... There are really plenty of sources to corroborate this. Wykx (talk) 18:11, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

You ignore everything I wrote. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Doomer1557 (talk • contribs) 18:34, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

There might be a case if you had a RELIABLE third party source which said he was de factor leader but I don't see any and even then it could be contested. A source which says he is 'tightening his grip on power' is not enough and an NPR intereview doesn't realy count. The economist comes close but not in my view enough. De facto is always dangerous and likely to lead to synthesis by editors -----Snowded ^TALK 12:03, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

In the previously mentioned links, the BBC writes 'the 33-year-old crown prince is considered the de facto ruler', Al Jazeera writes 'the kingdom's de facto ruler', the Economist writes 'the de facto ruler of Saudi Arabia' (https://www.instagram.com/p/B-eW8bkgoUU/), the Guardian writes 'de facto ruler of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia', the NPR writes 'Saudi Arabia's De Facto Ruler'. So I don't see yet why it doesn't meet the requirements: Wikipedia:Independent_sources#How_to_meet_the_requirement. Wykx (talk) 07:56, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

If no more objection, I will proceed. Wykx (talk) 18:57, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Request for comments on adding Juan Guaidó to the list of youngest current state leaders.

There is a debate about whether Juan Guaidó can be included in the list of the youngest current world leaders or not. 'Doomer1557' ( talk) 14:40, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Survey

• No - as he has merely the title President of Venezuela, not the authority. GoodDay (talk) 14:45, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Note that Guaido hasn't been elected president by the people or succeeded to the presidency per the Constitution. GoodDay (talk) 15:10, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Note that Acting President should not be elected by the people. 'Doomer1557' ( talk) 15:21, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

• Yes - Guaidó is recognized by Acting President by many UN member countries. He also performs nominal activities in this post (travels to countries). He is declared the President by the National Assembly. Thus, I think that he can be added to the list, but without numbering, in italics and with a note explaining the situation. 'Doomer1557' ( talk) 14:56, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
• No - Guaido has not the effective authority on the country. You can be recognized by some but be in exile, or without effective power, but in that case you're not the effective country leader. Wykx (talk) 18:55, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
• No Not elected or officially designated, popularity counts for nothing. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 21:22, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

• No The simple fact of the matter is that he isn't a world leader. He doesn't lead any country, and while he justifiably wants to do, as of now he does not. Zoozaz1 (talk) 18:09, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

• No, as regardless of limited recognition he is not actually in control. 11Fox11 (talk) 06:37, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
• Yes (in italics, without numbering and with a footnote, per Doomer1557). Guaidó is included in the main list List of current heads of state and government and (contrary to some comments above) this has nothing to do with elections or effective control. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 20:28, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Question

Is it correct to add to the list people whose date of birth is not reliably known? 'Doomer1557' ( talk) 11:07, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

No, because that would go against the policy on verifiability. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 13:43, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

@Redrose64: Then what about Abdul Momin and Enrico Dandolo, whose names are on the list, but their date of birth is unknown? 'Doomer1557' ( talk) 20:04, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

The oldest head of state

Since 1900, the oldest head of state has been the Regent of Thailand (2016) Prem Tinsulanon (1920), not the Hastings Banda. Moreover, his date of birth is not exactly known. МансурХароныч (talk) 18:15, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

If Hastings was born on February 15, 1898 (this is his most reliable date of birth, there are several sources), then he left the presidency at 96 years 3 months and 9 days. Prem ceased to be regent at 96 years 3 months and 5 days. Thus Banda is still the oldest

As for inaccurate dates of birth, I already wrote about this above, but I was ignored. Такие дела. 'Doomer1557' ( talk) 11:04, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Assimi Goita

Assimi Goita must be listed. The fact that the exact date of his birth is unknown does not matter. There are several individuals on the lists, whose exact date of birth is also unknown.
So..... Anyone want to dispute? 'Doomer1557' ( talk) 20:06, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Sabah Al-Ahmad Al-Jaber Al-Sabah

Sabah Al-Ahmad Al-Jaber Al-Sabah is dead, should be updates. Maudslayer (talk) 14:09, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Gabriel Boric

Honestly, I don't mind if Gabriel Boric is included in the list now or till his inauguration on 11 March 2022. He is not a state leader yet so he shouldn't be included, but we can't ignore a lot of people will add him given -unless a tragedy happens- he will become the second youngest leader in the world.

Considering this, I think we should keep him but marking clearly he is not part of the list yet, mainly to avoid an edit war. I've marked him differently (in italics, marking he is President-elect currently and not counted, so Sanna Marin is still nº 2) but if you consider other options, I'm fine. The only other option would be to keep reverting for three months every time he is added which I think is only a waste of time. --B1mbo (talk) 22:24, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

The list is for "serving" leaders, not "will be a serving leader once he is inaugurated (but he isn't yet so let's keep hidden in the list in the meantime)". I have no problem reverting editors who don't know the difference. If it becomes an actual edit war then I'll get the page protected to whatever level is required. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 02:55, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Wait until he takes office. GoodDay (talk) 02:58, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Gabriel Boric

Should Gabriel Boric(1986 be added) or he can't qualify because he isn't inaugurated yet 2001:56A:F4D9:B000:394E:877B:FC0:CBF3 (talk) 04:13, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Capitano Reggente S. E. Giacomo Simoncini.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 08:23, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Morocco

Muhammad al-Muqri — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.249.46.118 (talk) 17:33, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Min Hti of Arakan

He died at around 100. 103.137.24.34 (talk) 08:03, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

No exact date for birth or death. Age is listed as disputed. Too vague for inclusion. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 08:14, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Oldest at the time of Taking Office

I think there should be a Section for People who were oldest at the Time of taking Office like

1 Prem Tinsulanonda – 96

2 Mahathir Mohamad – 93

3 Beji Caid Essebsi – 88 103.137.24.210 (talk) 07:24, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Top ten of all time seems enough. Wykx (talk) 21:08, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Enrico Dandolo

I don't think he should be here as his Birthdate and deathdates are disputed. 103.137.24.120 (talk) 03:54, 9 November 2022 (UTC)