Talk:Mammy stereotype

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Untitled

I would dispute the comment that 'Mammy' the song was racial; Jolie as an immigrant Jew was far more in sympathy with immigrants including those of African descent, than most Americans. Whilst not a true 'jazz' artist, he was instrumental in advancing its popularity. W Betteley becker.1933@ntlworld.com

This is a very rich subject -- certainly as rich as blackface. The article needs a lot of work! deeceevoice 14:38, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I am going to take the first link out since it is no longer working. spikelee

"Mammy" is also what most Irish children call their mothers. Jdorney 11:25, 10 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Would a "mammy" really have been a wet nurse? To white children in the southern U.S.? I think some clarification is needed. 70.20.238.31 18:42, 7 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is the most racsist thing on this website

Tom & Jerry

The article is currently very weasely with regard to the housekeeper on the Tom & Jerry cartoons (calling her "reminiscent of the mammy archetype"). Please. She is the archetype, in full form, for generations of children to see up to and including my own. This needs a cite one way or the other, but I find the weasely language quite annoying in this case. — BrianSmithson 22:37, 23 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This language has been changed. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 17:41, 8 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Chrono Cross Refrence

It looks to me that the character in Chrono Cross looks more like she's from Hawaii than a "mammy archetype". Considering the flower in her hair and the blue eyes, I think that's what they were going for, so I think it's inappropriate to give her as an example.

I agree, I think it's a stretch 198.6.46.11 13:47, 1 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This reference has been removed. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 17:43, 8 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Racist?

Can someone add to the article *why* this is a racial slur. For people not familiar with the full context, it's far from clear. If it was a fat white woman, it surely would not be seen as racist

Wait, are you referring to the article or the Mammy archetype?

Joking aside, this one is a delightful edge case. There are so many admirable qualities associated with a mammy, it's hard to separate the subservient role of a mammy to 1800's southern white plantation owners. I say, take the whole package. Be outraged if you want, but acknowledging the inherent wisdom and strength of a mammy also acknowledges equality of the races in a manner of thought.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.31.166.240 (talk) 10:18, August 27, 2007 (UTC)

If the article in 2007 was lacking the reason for the term being considered racist, by this time it seems to have been well explained. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 17:45, 8 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Gone With the Wind?

Should "Gone with the Wind" be mentioned seeing as it had a "mammy" as an important character. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thesniperremix (talk • contribs) 01:32, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This movie is now mentioned in at least three places. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 17:47, 8 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This article needs to be seriously cleaned up

If you read this article from beginning to end, all you get is a series of undergraduate crit-lit condemnations that often contradict one another and shed no insight or historical perspective on the subject. First she is masculine and a threat to white people, and then she is docile and feminine and an exaggeration of the female physique aimed at making white people feel safe. What white people? Slave owners? Children of Slave owners? 20th century Americans? This article is just a jumbled mess. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 164.67.123.206 (talk) 18:57, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

what is an accurate source of this? 85.195.138.227 (talk) 08:00, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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Ethnic slur

This article is very american centric with the mention of mammy not being used and being considered racist. In northern England it is used regularly in an endearing way towards (usually your own) mothers. I would add to it by my current form of Internet access doesn't lend itself well to long-form typing Silent1 12:42, 15 August 2013 (UTC) Silent1 12:42, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The mammy archetype is an american idea, which is inherently racist, and is used only in reference to african americans. The term "mammy" may be used by many, many people with absolutely no racist overtones whatsoever, esp. if its within a family. however, in the us, to use the word publicly is nearly as bad as "nigger". I dont think even african americans use the word to describe their own mothers (though i bet the word was used a lot about a century ago). I think a note in the article to clarify that the term may not be racist everywhere. however, since the caricatures from us culture of blacks have spread worldwide, i dont think anyone can be deaf to its usage any more. And im sorry that certain words end up getting destroyed by racists. Mercurywoodrose (talk) 03:52, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In accordance with the above comments, I changed the title (moved the article) from "Mammy archetype" to "Mammy archetype in the United States." BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 17:56, 8 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Until an article such as Mammy (term of endearment) is created, the title Mammy archetype (or Mammy stereotype) is unambiguous. Hillbilly is another quintessentially American trope: we don't need to name the article Hillbilly stereotype in the United States just because other uses of the term exist. –Sangdeboeuf (talk) 22:55, 30 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Other countries?

I remember similar characters in French, Spanish and Portuguese language TV productions about slavery, especially Januária from "Escrava Isaura". However I have no idea if the archetype exist in other countries (I only know about Tia Nastácia in Brasil) or was it just influenced by the movies like Gone with the wind. Do you think it should be mentioned here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.77.52.172 (talk) 02:53, 25 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Which TV show in French? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:E35:8A8D:FE80:1DF3:2DC0:CB36:CD53 (talk) 17:14, 22 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Historicity

"The historicity of the mammy figure is questionable", eh? And no one sees any contradiction between this statement and the leading photograph of Mauma Mollie, with the testimony of the family member? — Paul Magnussen (talk) 23:29, 17 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I guess User:Paul Magnussen saw a contradiction. Anybody can edit in Wikipedia, so I suppose the user could have done so. Thanks. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 00:06, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

To answer this old question: the source cited points out that the testimony of the family members that kept Mauma Mollie in slavery does not reflect the experience of Mollie herself. The family member quoted can't even remember the year that Mollie was buried. — Toughpigs (talk) 17:26, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 13 March 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the pages at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 23:10, 19 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Mammy archetype → Mammy
Mammy → Mammy (disambiguation)

– Since Wikipedia is not a dictionary, this is the clear primary topic for "Mammy". All other uses of the term are based on the archetype. _{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 08:10, 13 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose As far as I know, the term has little significance (in terms of what is covered in the article) outside the US and pageviews do not support primacy. Shadow007 (talk) 08:35, 13 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not sure what bearing usage outside the US has on this discussion, since all the entries on the disambiguation are from the US and are based on the stereotype. It's about long term significance, not pageviews. Also, the graph clearly shows mammy archetype getting the majority of views by a long shot, so I'm not sure what you mean by not supporting primacy._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 08:37, 13 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  - Primary is determined by usage and long term significance. I do not see how you can say it is getting "the majority of views by a long shot". Graph does not show that at all. Shadow007 (talk) 08:52, 13 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    - For the vast majority of the time ever since 2015 it has consistently gotten roughly double that of the next most popular article. Beyond that, every other article is negligible in views compared to it. That to me is clear primacy, especially since said next most popular article, Mammy Two Shoes, is an example of the Mammy stereotype as described in this article._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 08:57, 13 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose no suggestion that this so article is encyclopaedically significant the ambiguating the title would help readers. In ictu oculi (talk) 15:51, 13 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The present title of this page is very clear. Renaming this page Mammy would make the subject of this article unclear.-- Toddy1 (talk) 19:38, 13 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. No primary topic here. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:01, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Remember to check the sources

Several times recently editors have made changes to the content without apparently first checking the source given for the content, so I reverted back to an earlier version. If your edit makes a difference in meaning of the content, be sure to cite a new source for the change. Thank you. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 05:05, 22 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Uncited material in need of citations

I am moving the following uncited material here until it can be properly supported with inline citations of reliable, secondary sources, per WP:V, WP:CS, WP:IRS, WP:PSTS, WP:BLP, WP:NOR, et al. This diff shows where it was in the article. Nightscream (talk) 14:44, 14 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Extended content

History
[edit]

As the mammy figure progressed into the 20th century, the persona changed over time into perhaps caricature. Memoirs that describe the roles of mammies from the 1890s to the 1920s downplayed the mammy's relationship with her family. In reality, many enslaved women working domestically were forced to forgo relations with their families in favor of working for their master's family.^{[citation needed]}

Fictional characteristics
[edit]

Another popular way in which the mammy caricature was previously portrayed was in minstrel shows, in which white people dressed in black face and performed songs and dances. Though popular in the southern region of the country up to the early 1900s, these depictions of black people were did not accurately portray real behavior of African Americans. Minstrel shows were extremely damaging to the public persona of African Americans and largely contribute to the stereotypes and biases that exist against them even today.^{[citation needed]}

Media portrayals
[edit]

Mammy characters were a staple of minstrel shows, giving rise to many sentimental show tunes dedicated to or mentioning mammies, including Al Jolson's My Mammy from The Jazz Singer and Judy Garland's performance of Swanee from A Star is Born (a song originally made popular by Jolson). Various mammy characters appeared in radio and TV shows. One prominent example was the radio and later short-lived television series Beulah, which featured a black maid named Beulah who helped solve a white family's problems. In the 1940s and early 1950s, Mammy Two Shoes, the housekeeper in 19 Tom and Jerry shorts, presented an animated example of the mammy, complete with dark skin and African American vernacular English. As a parody of this stereotype, the 1984 Frank Zappa album Thing-Fish featured characters called "mammy nuns".^{[citation needed]}

Cinema
[edit]

Other examples of the stereotype in film include:

Mammy as played by Jennie Lee in D. W. Griffith's 1915 silent epic The Birth of a Nation.^{[citation needed]}

Aunt Dilsey, played by Hattie McDaniel, Judge Priest, 1934.^{[citation needed]}

Louise Beavers played a mammy, cook, slave, or servant in almost all of her film roles. The more well known are: Imitation of Life (1934), Belle Starr (1941), Holiday Inn (1942), Jack London (1943) and I Dream of Jeanie (1952).^{[citation needed]}

Delilah, played by Virginia Capers, Big Jake, 1971^{[citation needed]}

Louise, played by Margo Moorer, Forrest Gump, 1994^{[citation needed]}

Ma Soupswill, Rare, Grabbed by the Ghoulies, 2003^{[citation needed]}

Aunt Tempe, played by Hattie McDaniel, in Song of the South, 1946^{[citation needed]}

Queenie, played by Hattie McDaniel, in Show Boat, 1936^{[citation needed]}

Dicey Johnson, played by Ethel Waters, in Pinky (film), 1949^{[citation needed]}

Animation
[edit]

Mammy Two Shoes, Tom and Jerry series, as above.^{[citation needed]}

"Scrub Me Mama with a Boogie Beat": the 1941 hit boogie-woogie song's animated short features many depictions of mammy figures, starting with the title card, through to the admonishment, "Listen here, Mammy. That ain't no way to wash clothes! What you all need is rhythm!" to "The End" displayed across a mammy's backside.^{[citation needed]}

Novels
[edit]

Aunt Chloe, Uncle Tom's Cabin, 1852^{[citation needed]}

Henrietta Beech, Petals on the Wind, 1980^{[citation needed]}

Television
[edit]

Other examples of the stereotype in television include:

Belle, played by Madge Sinclair, Roots, 1977^{[citation needed]}

Mamie, played by Diva Tyler, Eastbound and Down, 2009–2013^{[citation needed]}

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Citation errors

That's not really how to use footnote numbers! 213.57.58.48 (talk) 12:44, 29 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Picture Caption.

Requested by Adflatuss It is my view, that the caption should describe the Mammy stereotype the picture represents. Direct adversarial language takes the picture out of the historical context and prevents the reader from seeing how the stereotype could have emerged. A Tree In A Box (talk) 03:55, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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