Talk:Mark Cavendish

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At the age of 12[edit]

Cavendish was introduced to the world of cycling about the age of 12, having previously been a keen BMXer. Last I heard about it, BMX is a form of cycling. Is this supposed to say "the world of road cycling", or is the age wrong, or what? Daniel Barlow (talk) 08:39, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

BMX career[edit]

Does anyone have any information of his previous BMX career? Might be nice to add a section for it. brob (talk) 20:33, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

From what I have read I gather that his "BMX career" was more of a childhood pastime than a career. I haven't seen any sources which imply otherwise. Thaf (talk) 10:53, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

General Stuff - photo and "Major wins"[edit]

Maybe slightly picky, but there must be a better photo available to use? Having a photo from 2006 doesn't really look to good. If anyone could find a recent photo that would be better. If not recent, at least from his current team! Also, is the Grote Scheldeprijs a "Major win"? I know he's won it twice but we shouldn't let that affect anything - Boonen and McEwen don't have it in theirs, but a few of the minor names do. If "major" is seen as a relative term, then I can understand having it as a "Major win" for someone if it was their career pinnacle (or their only win!), but Cavendish has won 6 grand tour sprints, and doubtless will win much bigger things in the future - is it really "Major" for him? --Foolishfool (talk) 20:35, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Cavendish and a stranger[edit]

I removed this section beacuse in my view it was pointless trivia which added nothing to the article.----GreatestrowereverTalk Page 18:35, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Split proposal[edit]

I'm flexible on the title (I'd personally prefer something more like "Mark Cavendish palmarès" but I can understand why that's not the best title). Fact is, this section is already huge and it's only going to get huger in time. It might not even be exhaustive as is. But with Cavendish realistically having several more years of being the world's most prolific stage-race stage winner, this list is going to end up enormous. The other obvious option is paring it down and keeping it here, but I can't imagine that has much support. Nosleep break my slumber 20:15, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

I'd second that. Malo0178 (talk) 21:08, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
I think a split would be the sensible thing to do with the section being as big as it is already. Michaelfool (talk) 01:37, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
OK, so we're in favor of a split. That's the what. Wherein lies the rub, as the Bard would say, is the how. What is the new title going to be (I pulled Career victories of Mark Cavendish out of thin air as I was typing; if it works, it works, but maybe there's something better), and what is the new article going to look like? Is there precedent for splitting an article like this? Obviously, we're not going to just take the section out of this article and put it into a new one, but what prose in particular should accompany it? Nothing too redundant to this article. Should the new article have the word "List" in its name, which, rightly or wrongly, seems to indicate limited prose is needed? Nosleep break my slumber 14:09, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
I would go for List of career achievements by Mark Cavendish. This format is in use in various other sports, see Special:PrefixIndex/list_of_career_achievements_by. --EdgeNavidad (talk) 09:52, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
A fairly good idea to split given his age. I'm not sure about 'career achievements' - it sounds a bit fawning. The athletes in the list you provide have done a hell of a lot more than Cavendish has... maybe Career achievements of Lance Armstrong or Career achievements of Mario Cipollini might be appropriate, but Cav's not there (yet!). What's wrong with Mark Cavendish palmarès? If its the nature of palmarès as a technical term, I don't see that as a problem - after all, music band articles use discography. Palmarès also has the benefit of being a neutral term and, unlike achievements, does not necessarily read as 'a list of why Cav is great'. Another I'd put forward is Mark Cavendish career statistics, taking the example from tennis (see these, three, examples). Indeed, there is no reason why we couldn't then use that article to develop templates/tables with career summaries, which occur for a number of other sports (I'm thinking a table which somehow provides details of results from the classics, grand tours, world championships, in the manner of the tennis grand slam + masters tables. But that's moving onto a different discussion). So actually I think the career statistics works best (it has potential to be expanded into something more than a simple list), but palmarès works too. --Pretty Green (talk) 10:13, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
Probably would also be a good idea to use the sortable tables suggestion at WT:CYC. I'm not uverly fussed about the page name, can always change it at a later date. SeveroTC 13:33, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
Id go for it, its only going to get bigger. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Andy Lowson (talkcontribs) 14:15, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Went ahead and did the split to Career victories of Mark Cavendish. If anyone wants to move it to a different title, I'm not gonna lose sleep over it. Indeed, we might well be served to do this for other riders like Armstrong, Cipollini, Eddy Merckx...the GA reviewer for Alberto Contador even suggested this for that article, and Contador's palmarès is, by quantity, relatively small. Nosleep break my slumber 01:39, 19 July 2009 (UTC)


An editor has changed Cavendish's nationality (as called upon by the flag templates but nothing else) from GBR to Isle of Man in the Milan-Sanremo article - I thought it better to have any discussion here rather than on that page as it would affect many many more pages. My reading of WP:MOSFLAG is mostly based from the Use of flags for sportspeople section:

Flags should never indicate the player's nationality in a non-sporting sense; flags should only indicate the sportsperson's national squad/team or sporting nationality.

Where flags are used in a table, it should clearly indicate that the flags represent sporting nationality, not nationality, if any confusion might arise.

Flags should generally illustrate the highest level the sportsperson is associated with.

The set-up of the Isle of Man in cycling is that the Isle of Man Cycling Association is part of British Cycling: the sporting nationality of Isle of Man cyclists is Great Britain and it is GBR whom they ride for in World Championships and the Olympics. To me this is pretty clear case of highest sporting nationality. SeveroTC 22:17, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Mark Cavendish competed at the Commonwealth Games as part of the Isle of Man cycling team and not Great Britain. The Isle of Man is not part of the United Kingdom and also not part of Great Britain. There is no equivalent GBR flag. The Milan-Sanremo is an international race for professionals and Mark Cavendish competed with a professional team from the United States, rather than the Olympics or the Commonwealth Games. The race winners list is a sporting list of nationalities rather than a sporting list of where an individual sporting licence is registered. There is also the UK Immigration Act 1981 as applied to the Isle of Man and Mark Cavendish is born after this date.
The Isle of Man flag is used in the main info box in the main article for Mark Cavendish.
If these rules allow a player to represent two or more nations, then the eligibility rule that is most apt should be applied; most often it is the place of birth. Agljones (talk) 10:11, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
The actual immigration law makes little difference as MOSFLAG refers to sporting nationality. In cycling terms, as I've stated above, the Isle of Man Cycling Association is part of British Cycling so the sporting nationality of Manx riders is British. I'm not asserting any argument about non-sporting nationality. Moreover, your quote refers to if a sportsperson can represent two equivalent nations. This is clearly not the case as the Isle of Man only appear as a sporting nation at the Commonwealth Games. The idea that sporting list of nationalities rather than a sporting list of where an individual sporting licence is registered misses the point: sporting nationality is derived from the licence issuer as it is them who you qualify to compete for internationally. I'm really at a loss here as to what the Isle of Man sporting nationality argument actually is. SeveroTC 11:28, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
The assertion that the Isle of Man only appears as a sporting nation at the Commonwealth Games is incorrect as an Isle of Man Team has repeatedly played at the Cricket Small-Worlds Cup. The Isle of Man Cricket Federation is affiliated to the TTCB and has eligibility to play at the Cricket World Cup. The Isle of Man Football Association is affiliated to the FA and an Isle of Man football team has played at minor county level. Football teams from the Isle of Man are technically eligible for the FA Vase and county competitions. The Isle of Man has competed at the Inter-Island Games since its inception, along with other non-UK Crown Dependences such as Jersey, Guernsey and Gibraltar along with the Isle of Wight and many other Scottish Islands. The Island Games also has a non-FIFA football competition and non-GBR cycling competitions. A team from the Isle of Man has competed at the FIM Trial de Nations along with the motor-cycling Celtic Cup along with Scotland, Wales and Ireland. The Isle of Man TT Races was a round of FIM Motorcycle Grand Prix World Championship upto 1976 and then moved because of safety considerations. There was no equivalent British Grand Prix except the Ulster Grand Prix which was the Grand Prix de Nations. Many European motor-cycling federations banned their members from racing at the Isle of Man TT races and competitors from Spain, Italy and Portugal raced under licences from Monaco, Andorra and San Marino, although they are recorded with their nationalities of birth rather than there origin of the racing licence. Also competitors from Switzerland where motor racing is banned race under licences from Germany, France or Italy, along with competitors from the former East Germany that had defected and also competitors from the USA that were historically banned from competing outside of the United States. The Australian motor-cycling world champion Jack Findlay raced for many years with a FIM racing licence issued from France, although recorded on Wikipedia in racing results from Australia. This may be also the same with many cycling competitors. The Isle of Man racing sidecar driver and Isle of Man TT winner Dave Molyneux competed at the World Sidecar Championship with an Isle of Man racing licence as did Isle of Man Motor-Cycle Trials rider Steve Colley, issued from their local motor-cycle clubs although affiliated to the Auto-Cycle Union. The Isle of Man Rally driver Mark Higgins competed in the FIA World Rally Championship. This I would have thought would have been the case with Mark Cavendish, riding with a local cycling club (Manx Viking Wheelers?) as part of the Isle of Man Cycling Association and during cycle training was a witness to a road traffic accident which killed a school friend. There is a case for Isle of Man Sporting nationality and the Isle of Man is not part of the United Kingdom or the European Union. In regard to the UK Immigration Act 1981 it is applied to the Isle of Man as a Crown Dependence. There is a point to the UK Immigration Act 1981 as Mark Cavendish is born after that date and it has effected his nationality regardless of his sporting nationality (although I feel this is personal point which is outside the scope of the Wiki article, it is due to the origin of his parents and grand-parents born before 1982 and the issue of non-UK/EU membership/Isle of Man).
The Isle of Man flag is used in the main info box in the main article for Mark Cavendish.
If these rules allow a player to represent two or more nations, then the eligibility rule that is most apt should be applied; most often it is the place of birth Agljones (talk) 13:17, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
My apologies, I meant that the IOM doesn't have a proper representative cycling team except in the Commonwealth Games. What flag is used in the infobox is irrelevant: it's just as likely that that one is wrong as any other.
Your argument still ignores the main point: the Isle of Man Cycling Association is part of British Cycling, Manx cyclists represent Great Britain at the highest level, and therefore the sporting nationality of Manx racing cyclists is British. SeveroTC 16:18, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

The Isle of Man Cycling Association is actually affiliated to British Cycling as a regional body, along with Scotland, Wales and Gibraltar rather than than being "part of" British Cycling. The British Cycling as an adminsitrative body is affiliated to the European Cycling Union. As with other sports the local governing bodies in the Isle of Man are affiliated to their United Kingdom equivalent organisation. The Isle of Man Cricket Federation is affiliated to the TTCB and the Isle of Man Football Association affiliated to the FA. The Isle of Man has sporting nationality and the Isle of Man has never been part of Great Britain, United Kingdom or the European Union as shown by the use of the Union Flag. As with the Commonwealth Games, the regional bodies of British Cycling compete as Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Recent media reports describe Mark Cavendish as a "Team GBR" rather than from the United Kingdom. The British Cycling regulations automatically issue an initial provisional licence to any racing cyclist (there is no nationality qualifications) and I would presume that this is the same with other countries in the European Cycling Union and I would presume that Mark Cavendish is automatically eligible to an Italian cycling racing licence? In regard to sporting nationality there is also a difference to between competing at an amateur level (ie Commonwealth Games) and competing at a professional level. Perhaps Wikipedia should make a distinction. If regard to the Wikipedia:WikiProject Motorcycling I think you would find that any flags would be removed regardless of nationality. Agljones (talk) 10:57, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

To suggest the relationship between the Isle of Man Cycling Association and British Cycling is the same as that between British Cycling and the European Cycling Union is a bit confused. British Cycling is the national federation as recognised by the UCI. Every rider also has "nationality" on their licence. Although we obviously can't check his actual race licence, it is stated on the UCI ProTour page for his team, Team Columbia-HTC, as GBR. At the highest level, (i.e. not the Commonwealth Games, a minor competition), Cavendish's sporting nationality is British. I'm sure you will agree that "British" in a sporting sense is not the same as a political sense. The Union Flag is not ideal, I agree, but it is the one used in sporting events. When Cavendish won gold at the world track cycling championships, the Union Flag was raised in the medal ceremonies.
There is a point about treating professional and amateur riders differently (or elite and non-elite riders). If Cavendish hadn't competed for the Great Britain team at any point then this discussion would be very different. Nationality does matter in cycling because competing for a nation is an important part of the sport, in particular at world championship and Olympic events. From my knowledge of motorcycling, this isn't the case in that sport. As it is, my original quote from WP:MOSFLAG stands and the only reliable source of sporting nationality, as derived from the UCI website, is British (GBR). SeveroTC 14:19, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

What does his passport say? —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 10:38, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't know, but in this context it doesn't matter anyway. It's what it says on his UCI racing license - and that says British. SeveroTC 22:17, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
I think the racing license point is a little irrelevant bearing in mind Cavendish held a German racing licence when he rode for Team Sparkasse, and you wouldn't have described him as German then... What is wrong with having both Manx and British stated - it's the same as with Scottish/Welsh riders etc. people identify and represent both nationalities so why not simply avoid causing offence (by stating that one is more important than the other) by just having both!? Thaf (talk) 08:48, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
The problem is it doesn't correspond to Wikipedia guidelines, and as initially raised here one has to be taken as primary because in results tables only one flag should be shown. As I state just above, it's what it says on his UCI licence (not where it was issued, the regs say that's about where you live). I've been thinking about what we should have for all Home Nations riders and will bring it up at some point at WT:CYC. It might be that we should take a closer look at the infobox design as well - with the integration of the medal tables we're emphasising nationality twice - and could replace this with a place of birth field (without flags, as per WP:MOSFLAG). SeveroTC 14:24, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

A recent article in the Manx Independent page 40 dated 31 July 2009, an Isle of Man based newspaper stated that;-

It is stated in Wikipedia Manual of Style that the use of dual flags or more the use of more than one flag should be avoided and if there is a conflict then the eligibility rule that is most apt should be applied; most often it is the place of birth. The use of Subnational flags (e.g., England rather than UK) is also acceptable in sports, particular in recording results at local, national or even international level. The overriding consideration is providing encyclopedic value. The assertion that "sporting nationality is derived from the licence issuer," it was previously noted that Mark Cavendish has previously raced with a German licence and compared to other sports cycling has the restricted definitions of sporting nationality which do not provided encyclopedic value or content. The issue of competing in the Commonwealth or Olympic Games is not an issue in a sporting sense as it is considered to be a 'continental championship.' In respect to many sports, nationality is an important issue and in regard to motor racing and in particular motor-cycle racing there has been either informal or formal championships based on nationality. As the cycling world championship, for example, is not based on a points scoring system held over a number events like the Formula 1 World Championship, events such as the Tour de France and the Milan-San Remo could be considered respectively as an international and a national race and not a world championship event and with other sports the use of Subnational flags is acceptable in this context. Agljones (talk) 13:42, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Okay, a few issues to raise on this.
  1. It doesn't matter where the licence is issued, as this is the country the rider lives in and this does not derive sporting nationality. I initially stated that licence issuer was important but I was wrong, as I later stated.
  2. Each rider's nationality as determined by the UCI and as the rider has supplied is stated in their racing licence. This information makes up part of the rider's "UCI code" which is reproduced on the UCI's website. In Cavendish's case, this states GBR.
  3. Sporting nationality may be different from politically nationality. For sportspeople, sporting nationality is overriding.
  4. Riders results in UCI events do contribute towards a nations ranking. The UCI awards an overall nations champion, and rankings determine how many riders a national federation can send to World Championship and Olympic events.
As we don't seem to be getting anywhere with this, I'm going to ask the folks at WT:MOSICON to provide some outside opinions. SeveroTC 14:43, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Any updates on this discussion after his winning the World Championship as part of the Great British team? Oliphaunt (talk) 19:52, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

He has been riding for the Great Britain team for years and won his first world title, while in GB colours, in 2005 (Madison with Rob Hayles), so I don't see how recent events would change anything. It might be worth noting though that this is not longer an issues in the infobox because {{Infobox cyclist}}, along with almost all {{Infobox person}} templates, states place of birth rather than nationality now. SeveroTC 06:23, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
The article still has sentences like "He became the second British World Champion after Tom Simpson in 1965" that are technically incorrect... but I guess this is not a big deal. I just note that the distinction is usually not made by media. Oliphaunt (talk) 09:09, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
I don't even know if it is technically incorrect. It's only incorrect if you allow 'British' to only mean 'of the United Kingdom'. But the Terminology of the British Isles is much more complex than that Cavendish is from an island which is 'British', in the sense that it is ultimately governed - at a distance - by the British Crown. Anyway Cavendish rides for 'Team GB', so it would seem fair to call him (and, while we're at it Chris Froome) a British rider. By contrast, I wouldn't describe Birmingham-born Dan Martin or Ashton-under-Lyme's Simone Perrotta as 'British' sportsmen.
Ah yes, thanks for that. Oliphaunt (talk) 18:57, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Some of the confusion come from the fact that the Isle of Mann is an independantly governed British Crown Dependancy and it is not actually part of the United Kingdom (nor is it part of the EU). However, those who are born there are still British citizens as the island, despite being independanly goverend, is a possession of the crown. On the Island the Queen is head of state and holds the title Lord of Mann(Lord of Mann is used by both male and female monarchs as 'Lord' outranks 'Lady'. Lady of Mann is only used by a Queen consort not by a Queen regent).

About three minutes ago, on BBC television's Olympics coverage, Cavendish just said he is proud to be British and to race in a British jersey. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 19:58, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

Career Achievements[edit]

The separate article for Career Achievements does an excellent job on detailing all Mark's victories, while the year by year sections on this article provide an overview of his main wins each year. What is missing though is a section giving some context on Mark's place in overall sprinting history and comparisons over time. With this in mind I'm going to put some info back in the Career Achievements section detailing these career highlights.

My initial ones are focussed on his place in the pantheon of British cycling as he is already the British rider with most TdF stages, most overall victories, wins in all three tours, TdF Green jersey winner etc. Also a few overall categories like wins by a neo-pro, placing in TdF stage winners and Grand Tour stage winners overall rankings which tend to get media attention (obviously these will require updating).

Will be worth keeping an eye out for other Career Landmarks that come up and placing them in this section as they rather get lost in the year by year stuff.Andrewdpcotton (talk) 13:40, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

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"The most successful sprinter in Tour de France history"[edit]

"The most successful sprinter in Tour de France history, in July 2012, French newspaper L'Equipe named Cavendish the Tour de France's best sprinter of all time."

This feels a little eroneous. He hasn't won as many green jerseys as Zabel and is not top of the stage victories section. Now I love Cav as much as the next guy but I wouldn't say he was the most successful tdf sprinter yet. Can we alter this to make it more accurate?Thelostlibertine (talk) 05:41, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Well you can judge by either objective or subjective criteria. L'Equipe's experts voted Cav the best sprinter of all time using subjective criteria assessed by experts. Here at Wikipedia we can report that but we cannot make subjective judgments, only report on objective criteria.
The phrase "most successful sprinter in Tour de France history" relates to the numbers of stages won. Cavendish now has more stage victories (23) than the second most successful pure sprinter (Andre Darrigade with 22.) He also has more Tour de France mass start stage victories than any other rider as Andre Leducq, Bernard Hinault and Eddy Merckx all had several time trial wins as part of their total wins.
Winning points jerseys is another skill that certainly makes for a better and more rounded Palmares and Erik Zabel's record 6 green jerseys are unlikely to be beaten by Cavendish (maybe by Sagan though?) but you couldn't argue for example that he was the most successful sprinter in the 1999_Tour_de_France where he won the green jersey without winning a stage, while Mario Cipollini took 4 stages, Tom Steels 3 and Jan Kirsipuu and Robbie McEwen 1 each. Erik was the most consistent finisher (and made it through the mountains, unlike Cipo) and came away with Green but wasn't the "most successful sprinter" that year.
All that being said in an article on Cycling's greatest sprinters (one to write in future?) I would expect Erik Zabel's points jerseys to be counted in the credit column to bump him up above another sprinter with equal stage wins who didn't have them. In an article about Cav though it seems reasonable to give him credit for winning more road stages than anyone else in history.
Maybe the phrase needs a qualifier, on the List_of_career_achievements_by_Mark_Cavendish page we use the sentence "Became the most successful sprinter in Tour de France history with his 23rd stage victory giving him more mass start stage victories in the Tour than any other rider.[1]." Would all this be a bit much detail for the lead in the main article though? Andrewdpcotton (talk) 12:43, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Part of the House of Cavendish?[edit]

Is Mark really part of the House of Cavendish, or does he so happen to have the surname as well? It doesn't say anything online about him being related to the family of the Dukes of Devonshire, neither does he have a title (eg. he is not Lord Mark Cavendish). On the page of the House of Cavendish, it says that he is a member of it, but I don't think this is entirely correct, but correct me if I'm wrong here.

--Alice.pinder (talk) 13:40, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

No evidence for this, I've removed it from the House of Cavendish page --Super Nintendo Chalmers (talk) 22:28, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Possible copyright problem[edit]

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  1. ^ p125 "Letour Guide Historique 2012" Check |url= value (help) (PDF). 10 July 2012. Retrieved 23 July 2012.