Talk:Muslim conquests on the Indian subcontinent

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
          This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject Military history (Rated B-Class)
MILHIST This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality assessment scale.
WikiProject Pakistan (Rated B-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Pakistan, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Pakistan on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by WikiProject Pakistani history.
 
WikiProject India / History (Rated B-class, High-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject India, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of India-related topics. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 High  This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by the Indian history workgroup (marked as High-importance).
 
Note icon
This article was last assessed in April 2012.
WikiProject Islam (Rated B-class)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Islam, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Islam-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Bangladesh (Rated C-class, Low-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Bangladesh, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Bangladesh on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
Checklist icon
 Low  This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Hinduism (Rated B-class, Low-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Hinduism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Hinduism on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Low  This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
 

Undue Weight[edit]

@Kautilya3: , @AshLin: It seems that this article gives undue and disproportionate weight to Arabs and Sind in the 8th century. I thing this whole affairs of Arabs in Sind should be cut to a single small section. There is a different article for this. Historian Stanley Lane-poole described it as "an episode in the history of India and of Islam, a triumph without results". No need to give disproportionate importance. Ghatus (talk) 05:29, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

That is indeed the plan. See the above discussion copied from my talk page. Please feel free to branch it off to a separate article and summarize it here. (I am going to be busy with my day job for a couple of weeks.) The new article could perhaps be titled Arab conquests in the Indian subcontinent?
You need to see WP:Copying within Wikipedia for the procedure for copying. Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 06:40, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

Today's revert[edit]

I have just reverted a large number of unexplained and undue edits. Here is why:

  • For this edit [1], it is true that Islam arrived in India much earlier than the Muslim Conquests. But this article is about Muslim conquests. So it doesn't belong in the lead. Please feel free to add it in the body.
  • In this edit [2], maps have been changed with the new maps being called "real maps." Please discuss here what is real about them and what the sources are.
  • As for the rest of the edits [3], there is a strenuous effort to replace "Muslim" by "Islamic", which is undue. The balance of reliable sources do not use terms such as "Islamic conquest" and "Islamic rule". So, please refrain from such POV edits.

The editors involved have been notified of the ARBIPA sanctions.

As far as I can tell, this article is reliably sourced even though it lacks enough footnotes. No new unsourced content is permitted.- Kautilya3 (talk) 10:26, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

A funny sentence in this article.[edit]

"The Ancient Indian Kingdoms in Afghanistan and Pakistan became Muslim majority areas, as did the Eastern Part of Bengal. This would ultimately lead to the Partition of India in 1947 after the end of British rule." . The British used a popular strategy "Divide and rule",if an area becomes Muslim majority it does not lead to a partition,it is that it became a Muslim Majority area so Muhammad Ali Jinnah wanted a seperate place for muslims,and the idea was supported by the Britishers and Jawahar Lal Nehru.I don't even understand if the conversion section is a Islamophobe or a criticism section or really some history.Haider67 (talk) 18:29, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

  • I don't understand what you find funny about the sentence. Since the section is titled "Impact of Islam", the Partition of India should be included in it.
  • The conversion section details all the current theories about it as per WP:NPOV. - Kautilya3 (talk) 19:00, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Recent blind reverts, false content addition, pov content addition, and inadequate edits summaries[edit]

This blind revert, done without any edit summary, [[4]] by LouisAragon added unreferenced and what seems like pov-worded text (whose goal appears to be to suggest that the Muslim invasions were not destructive or historically significant to the native population):

  1. text such as "Like other societies in historySouth Asia has been attacked by nomadic tribes throughout its long history" and "In that sense, the Muslim invasions of the 10th century onwards were not dissimilar to those of the earlier invasions in the History of Central Asia during the 1st through to the 6th century." and "The Sultanate ushered in a period of Indian cultural renaissance".
  2. The reasonably factual though simplified "India in the 16th century presented a fragmented picture of rulers on account of constant conflicts between Hindu & Muslim empires" is replaced by the pov-worded "India in the 16th century presented a fragmented picture of rulers, both Muslim and Hindu, who lacked concern for their subjects". Both versions are unreferenced, the former had been tagged as such - the latter edit reused that reference required tag, which it should not have done.
  3. "Timur's memoirs on his invasion of India describe in detail the massacre of "idolators" & "infidels" " is replaced by "Timur's memoirs on his invasion of India describe in detail the massacre of "Hindus" " This is a fake quote, see [[5]] - Timur very rarely uses the word "Hindus" but often talks of "idolators" & "infidels" (amongst which he included non-Hindus like Zoroastrians) and of their massacre and states "my object was the extermination of the infidels" (p187) boasting he "routed the infidel enemy, killing them in multitudes" "having overpowered the infidels, they put many of them to death" (p188), "I would exterminate them to a man" (p189), "Their orders were to plunder and destroy, and to kill every one they met." (p196), "They plundered every village and place they came to, killed the men." (P197), "vast number were taken prisoners. Next day I gave orders that the Mussulman prisoners should be separated and saved, but that the infidels should all be put to death with the proselyting sword." (p198), "up to the present we had taken more than one hundred thousand infidels and Hindus prisoners ... no course remained but to make them all food for the sword". (p202) - and much more of the same.
  4. LouisAragon's revert also deleted wikilinked content I had added: "but was defeated at the First battle of Tarain by Prithviraj" being deleted and replaced by the less accurate "was defeated at Tarain by Prithviraj."
  5. In a further edit [6] LouisAragon attempts to make up for the lack of any edit summary in the revert by claiming without evidence "that revision is even far worse written, regarding historical context, English, and WP:NPOV". I have already indicated how the reverse is true -that the LouisAragon revert is full of pov and that it deleted historical information (such as First battle of Tarain).
  6. The assertion that the LouisAragon revert contains better English is also patently false: "Throughout its long history the Western frontiers of South Asian Sub-continent has always been vulnerable to attacks by nomadic tribes. The northwestern portion of the sub-continent was a frequent target of tribes from Central Asia." was replaced by the longwinded and pompous "Like other societies in history, South Asia has been attacked by nomadic tribes throughout its long history. In evaluating the impact of Islam on the sub-continent, one must also note that the northwestern sub-continent was a frequent target of tribes from Central Asia". One could also note :) plenty of other examples. The old version was not all in perfect English, but if bits were roughly written they could have been rewritten, not deleted and replaced by something that was even worse. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 16:11, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
The blind revert by LouisAragon followed on from an extensive revert made by Alexis Ivanov [7]. It contained the edit summary "You have to source your claim", a completely inadequate explanation for such a large removal of content, especially since there seems to be no content added that obviously needed sources. Rather than such an extensive revert, Alexis Ivanov should simply have tagged the content he considered needed sources. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 16:18, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
I forgot my popcorn today Alexis Ivanov (talk) 17:55, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
(ec) The recent edit history I note is the following:
The recommended procedure, as per WP:BRD, was to have come here after the first revert.
So it is really Alxndrdegrt's edits that we are discussing. The only edits you have made are these [15], which are not particularly contentious. - Kautilya3 (talk) 17:59, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
It is LouisAragon's and Alxndrdegrt's edits. I've been pointing out numerous failings within the edit reverted to and (I assume) supported by LouisAragon. The extent and degree of those failings is why I restored it to the Alxndrdegrt version after the revert by Alexis Ivanov (whose edit summary did not justify such a major revert). The content of Alxndrdegrt's edit, while not perfect, had none of those failings and so substantially improved the article. So, for a discussion to start, LouisAragon needs to explain what objections he had against the Alxndrdegrt version. And also why he is supporting a version that has so many flaws. I don't know why he is supporting it 100% - doing a complete revert rather than just making selective edits. Probably examining each section of each version in turn is a way to proceed. I hope to see a discursive contribution from Alexis Ivanov that goes beyond "popcorn". Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 20:12, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
Well, the edit started by changing "conquest" to "invasion". Also "incursion" has been changed to "attack". Such changes require consensus. You can assume that the present wording reflects the present consensus among the editors. To change it, one needs to produce reliable sources, in this case WP:HISTRS sources. You have provided a link to a web site that seems to contain British Raj era texts. They do not meet the requirements of WP:HISTRS, which requires sources containing "recent scholarship." You are welcome to challenge the content that is currently unsourced, or content for which you have appropriate sources that disagree with those referenced here. But, just changing wording to reflect own views is not how Wikipedia works. - Kautilya3 (talk) 20:29, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
I do not know what content you are referring to. You already stated that the content additions I made were "not particularly contentious". I have added no links to the article other than a wikilink to an article dealing with an event. If you are referring to the text on Timur's account cited in my above post, are you alleging that the translation is inaccurate and that he never used the term "infidel" and that he killed only Hindus? The source, Elliot, Sir H. M., Edited by Dowson, John, "The History of India, as Told by Its Own Historians" is already used SIX times as a reference in the article (and only last month you wrote "as far as I can tell, this article is reliably sourced" [16] - is it only an unsuitable "British Raj era text" when its content goes against what you want?). Consensus cannot support unreferenced or pov or clearly inaccurate content. It is you who is displaying a misunderstanding of "how Wikipedia works" if you think every single word change in an article need consensus. Single descriptive words should be accurate and have a npov - so for example "captured" rather than "liberated" - and need to follow what sources state (though not reproduce them exactly). And anyway, the concerns I expressed earlier were not about single words - they were about unreferenced sentences that appear to be pov worded. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 21:05, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
As I have already noted, you are apparently defending Alxndrdegrt's edits. (It is indeed odd that he or she isn't here to discuss own edits.) I am taking their latest reinstatement (what is labelled as [13] above). As for Dowson's book, the book is a translation of medieval texts. Those texts are WP:PRIMARY sources. They cannot be used on their own without support from secondary sources. Downson's own commentary can't be used because it isn't recent scholarship. If any of the current references to Dowson use it in a judgemental way, you can tag them as {{unreliable source}}. - Kautilya3 (talk) 23:46, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
I have little doubt that you are nit-picking for effect and nothing more. The source a mere few weeks ago you called "reliable" suddenly becomes "unreliable" when you require it to be so (though remaining "reliable" enough to still be used on multiple occasions in the article). It is not a primary source - the primary source would be the Persian original. And not an ounce of evidence is produced by you for the edit version you want retained, a version which remains unreferenced despite claiming to be a "quote" ("Hindus" remain in inverted commas). Nor are you addressing any of the other substantive pov content issues I raised - all of which is indeed odd considering that you are apparently defending LouisAragon's edits and ARE here. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 03:03, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
Thank you Kautilya3 you just said what was on my head, and my popcorn comment is clear, you bring the party here I'm just interested in how you are going to twist this article the way you always do with articles in Wikipedia, and cause disruptions. I will bring the butter hopefully you can wait, the popcorn will be ready Alexis Ivanov (talk) 23:50, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
See here [1] for the subtleties involved in interpreting medieval texts, and why we insist that it should be done by professional historians. - Kautilya3 (talk) 01:37, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
Is that a royal "We"? Your continuing condescending attitude of superiority just antagonizes. Also, please do not ref tag things on talk pages - their context will be lost when new sections are added to the talk page. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 03:09, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

References

Source misrepresentation[edit]

This sentence;

  • "Mu'izz al-Din was wounded & captured by Prithviraj's brother Govind Tai. Prithviraj as a gesture of goodwill pardoned & released Mu'izz al-Din."

is not supported by this source, Satish Chandra, Medieval India: From Sultanat to the Mughals (1206-1526), (Har-Anand Publications, 2006), 25.[17]
I would suggest user:Alxndrdegrt stop adding unsourced information in front of a reference, thus making it appear to be sourced. That is source misrepresentation, and makes the article "biased and inaccurate". --Kansas Bear (talk) 07:09, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Looking at what's taking place, there's absolutely no intention in general from both Alxndrdegrt and Triptoe to actually improve the quality of this article. I only see changes of unsourced material into more unsourced material, removal of cn tags without adding references, using weasel words and completely non-academic ways of formulating these new edits, as well as lastly, changing important core sections, such as the title without any WP:CON or whatsoever. The duo, altogether, has been warring since about the 1st of November, with numerous times adding content with no edit summary nor sources [18], [19], [20], [21]. The same acts were then taken over by "Tiptoetrutheminefield", who started to reinstate the exact same content as user:Alxndrdegrt, again with no sourcing as well, upon the fact that though he at least uses edit summaries; they are blatantly fake (e.g "removal of sourced content" even though no sources were added) User "Alxndrtgrt" should've already been given a firm warning back then, and the page probably semi'd, for them to actually seek the dialogue, finding sources for their content, or to actually seek a WP:CON. As for now, I believe there is absolutely no reason either to keep this even worse revision active, that's built upon edit-warring and the addition of even more pseudo-historical revisionism and unsourced content. It should be returned to the version prior to the edit war as initiated by "Alxndrtgrt" and continued by " Tiptoethrutheminefield". - LouisAragon (talk) 09:09, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Since this article has gained the attention of some editors, what relevance does this sentence have?
"But Mahmud of Ghazni never met on the battlefield Emperor Raja Raja Chola I and Emperor Rajendra Chola I of the Chola empire which was the most powerful Empire of India at that time."
Judging from the location of the Chola Empire, and the fact that Mahmud never raided that far south, this sentence is quite meaningless and should be removed. --Kansas Bear (talk) 00:16, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

Kansas Bear, I'd appreciate your contribution if you would like to respond to the points I made in the previous section. In particular the wording which seems pov, and the use of excerpts from the English-language translation of Timur's invasion accounts. LouisAragon above, as well as displaying bad faith, conveniently fails to mention that the background section wording he reverted to was also entirely unsourced. I suspect that the "But Mahmud of Ghazni never met ..." sentence is there to weasely imply that the battlefield successes of the former were actually not up to much because he never encountered the latter. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 04:23, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
Having argued against both LouisAragon and Kautilya3, I can understand their concerns. However, if everyone takes a step back and approaches the issue from the standpoint of sources, then I believe we can improve this article. If I am not mistaken this article has numerous unsourced sentences and paragraphs. Take for instance this sentence;
  • "In that sense, the Muslim invasions of the 10th century onwards were not dissimilar to those of the earlier invasions in the History of Central Asia during the 1st through to the 6th century."
clearly unsourced and clearly a piece of original research.
I propose we assess sources and sentences, starting with the first section of this article until we reach the end of this article. This should address any concerns that we(as editors) have over sources and sentences. Thoughts? --Kansas Bear (talk) 06:21, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
This material is "unsourced" only in the sense that it doesn't indicate its source. But these are not the ideas that our average Wikipedian came up with on his own. They are clearly the insights of a historian of the highest calibre. Those of us that know enough history of India know them to be true. The article has been tagged for footnotes for quite a while, and Tiptoethrutheminefield has now added inline tags. If we want to improve the article, we should hunt for sources, not merely delete the existing content. People can also hunt for WP:HISTRS sources that provide alternate points of view, and we can add them. Nothing is cast in stone in History. - Kautilya3 (talk) 10:04, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
"....insights of a historian of the highest caliber" - I must admit to never having heard anything like that before as a justification for unreferenced OR! I think the entire "background" section needs to be deleted. At the moment it is 100% unreferenced OR synthesis and very POV - and I think it probably always will be. The Alxndrtgrt version was better regarding the pov problems, but it was still all unreferenced. Is there any need for such a section anyway? Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 16:25, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
You have already tagged it for citations. Without achieving consensus that is all you can do for the moment. If you want to take it further, please produce WP:HISTRS that contradict it. - Kautilya3 (talk) 09:25, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
It is WP:SYNTHESIS . HIAS (talk) 12:49, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
Note on the policy or rather common sense: If something is challenged to be original research it should be referenced or it can be removed at a later point of time. The onus is on the person who wants it to remain to produce references. --AmritasyaPutraT 13:57, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
Common sense? If the right thing to do is to delete unsourced material, then there would be no need for templates like "citation needed", "unreferenced" and "refimprove", would there? As for policy, see WP:UNSOURCED. - Kautilya3 (talk) 14:29, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Four editors have voiced their concerns for that section. AmritasyaPutra is correct, regarding challenged information, though anything unsourced and then challenged can be removed. As for WP:HISTRS, that has no bearing on unsourced information, nor are editors required to find reliable sources that contradict unsourced information.
My concerns were that it was unsourced and not written in context with the article itself.

May be we should wait for citations. HIAS (talk) 17:17, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
I agree we should wait for citations. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 23:45, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
My apologies for not pinging you Alexis. How long should we wait? --Kansas Bear (talk) 00:05, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
No offense taken, I would say anytime you want. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 00:16, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
It has been tagged for citations for 4 days now. I think a week should be enough time given the amount of editors here, especially since some editors thought it OK to remove the equally unreferenced alternative version without any wait at all on the grounds that it was unreferenced. Certainly not longer than a further 7 days. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 03:38, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
One week works for me. Should we move to the next section? --Kansas Bear (talk) 03:59, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
In my opinion, the time is inconsequential. Any editor that challenges and deletes material that has been there for several years and read by thousands or perhaps millions of users is staking a claim that they know all the literature pertaining to the subject well and they are confident that the material under question cannot be reliably sourced. If we find sources and reinstate it, their knowledge of literature as well as their judgement will be under question. Plus issues of WP:NOTHERE. So humility and some good sense will work well to their advantage. - Kautilya3 (talk) 18:55, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
I had thought about mentioning the interesting fact that this unreferenced OR synthesis content has been there for at least 3 years unchallenged (until I challenged it), but I decided not to, feeling that mentioning it would carry with it certain implications about the editorial standards of those working on it over those years. Kautilya3 has now both done it, and done the implication bit too: Kautilya3 seems disturbingly untroubled that "thousands or perhaps millions of users" have been consuming unreferenced OR for years. One day more than an additional 7 days of this sorry state of affairs is one day too long, imho (and my good sense too). Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 00:32, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
The 7 days have past, making 10 days in total since the section was tagged for references, and no references have been added, so I have deleted that section. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 19:49, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
That is why some of us are here and thanks to KansasBear, we can have a civil disucssion and ensure the quality of the article. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 20:24, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
I think the background should be re-instated in light that there were Central Asian invasion on India. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 23:37, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
It cannot be re-instated without sources, and consensus concluded that the section was OR Synthesis and should be removed. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 01:05, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
I will bring my sources, just making sure you are ready that I will re-instate in the near future. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 02:07, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

On to the next section then. "Islam in India existed in communities along the Arab coastal trade routes in Sindh, Bengal, Gujarat, Kerala, and Ceylon as soon as the religion originated and had early gained widespread acceptance in the Arabian Peninsula, being brought over by merchants, Sufis and missionaries, who oftentimes settled down and intermarried with the local women, adopting local customs. The first incursion by the new Muslim successor states of the Arab World occurred around 636 CE or 643 AD, during the Rashidun Caliphate,long before any Arab army reached the frontier of India by land." is very badly written. Although its essential content does not appear to me to be dubious, it is all unsourced so there is no way of knowing for sure. The paragraph following it has references, but many are incomplete and are strangely rendered - such as "Sen, Sailendra Nath, "Ancient Indian History and Civilization 2nd Edition", pp346", and "Editors: El Harier, Idris, & M'Baye, Ravene , "Spread of Islam Throughout the World ", pp594". If the 1924 translation of Al-Biladhuri's Kitãb Futûh Al-Buldãn is acceptable for Kautilya3 as a source, then I trust he will drop his objection to a minimal use of the Timur text translation in later sections of the article. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 00:56, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 5 external links on Muslim conquests on the Indian subcontinent. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

Question? Archived sources still need to be checked

Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 06:11, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 4 external links on Muslim conquests on the Indian subcontinent. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

Question? Archived sources still need to be checked

Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 06:40, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 external links on Muslim conquests on the Indian subcontinent. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

Question? Archived sources still need to be checked

Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 22:47, 10 July 2016 (UTC)