Talk:Nick Kyrgios

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Ethnicity and nationality of his parents[edit]

There have been a lot of edit changed to the description of Kyrgios' mother, specifically about whether to call her "Malaysian" or "half-Malasyan". For his father, both "Greek" and "Greek-Australian" have been used. So it might be worth a discussion to sort it out a bit.

First, there is a difference between describing the ethnicity of his parents and their nationality. They are both Australian citizens who were born in other countries before coming to Australia. So their original nationalities are Malaysian and Greek, but their current nationality is just Australian.

Second, if the intention is to describe his mother's ethnicity, not her nationality, then "Malaysian" won't do the job. Malaysia is a country composed of a variety of different ethnic groups, none of which are called "Malaysian". So to refer to his mother's ethnicity a source would be needed that specifies which Malaysian ethnic group she belongs to. I have not seen any source that does that, so unless someone can find one that specifies, we cannot include any claim about her ethnicity at all.

Third, with regard to his father's ethnicity, "Greek" both describes a nationality and an ethnicity. One might think that "Greek-Australian" also describes an ethnicity, but that seems more a description of a person born and raised in Australia to ethnically Greek parents, not a Greek person who then moves to Australia.

In the absence of better sourcing for any other claims people might want to include, it does seem clear from sources that Kyrgios' father was born in Greece and his mother was born in Malaysia (Kuala Lumpur, to be more specific). So I would suggest that the description of them in the article should say "Greek born" and "Malaysian born". These are indisputable facts that indicate their national origin and tell us about as much as we can verify about their ethnicity. 99.192.83.52 (talk) 12:13, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

i completely disagree. about his greek ethnic component there should be zero objection. this is a fact that he has greek ethnicity. his father is ethnic greek and he seems proud of a greek ethnic identity - not that his father was only born in greece.
the reference for his mum in the article says that his own manager calls her half-malaysian. if the manager says this then this should be enough for us because who would know the family more intimately? maybe she has another country of origin that no one has bothered to mention. i would speculate she has some indian in her just based upon her darker complexion which is atypical for say a malay. but this is beyond what we currently know so we shouldn't speculate. also you say that malaysian isn't an ethnicity, well that's irrelevant. How many times do you hear someone described as half australian & half indian? is australian an ethnicity? is indian an ethnicity? is american an ethnicity? is african-american an ethnicity? the list goes on & on. yet these are still acceptably used & that should be no different for half malaysian.
in conclusion, we should stick with the most up to date info we have that is backed by reference ie. greek & half-malaysian.58.111.196.44 (talk) 14:34, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
First, to call his father "Greek born" is not something I would expect people to take as a denial of his ethnicity, but as a confirmation of it. Secondly, Kyrgios's manager did call Kyrgios's mother "half-Malaysian", but that description cannot possibly be true. You cannot be "half" anything by nationality. So the only way what he said could begin to make sense is if he was intending to say something about her ethnicity, but Malaysian is not an ethnicity. So clearly he does not know what he is talking about because he said something that cannot possibly be true of any person. 99.192.79.113 (talk) 14:50, 5 July 2014 (UTC) (=99.192.83.52)
OK, so we are clear about a greek father then? Good.
About his mum i think you are just a little ignorant of modern malaysian identity issues. when someone says malaysian to describe someone in modern malaysia then it is always referring to ethnic malays. the reason is because any other malaysian is always referred to as chinese-malaysian, indian-malaysian etc. modern malaysia promotes the view that only the indigenous malays or those of muslim identity are truly malaysian. the rest are seen as historical imports and so are not seen as true malaysian, hence the prefix. back to nick's mum: her name, her look, and the name of her daughter and nick's middle name clearly indicate a malay identity. i would prefer to add this, however, no reference says this so i will only add the best reference on the issue ie. half-malaysian. as i said earlier. i also strongly believe she has an indian component in her because her look just isn't pure malay. i would speculate she has tamil in her, just because there are many tamils in malaysia and nick's wiki article has a tamil version as well. so perhaps someone knows something we don't! but i wouldn't bother with speculation.58.111.196.44 (talk) 00:13, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
when someone says malaysian to describe someone in modern malaysia then it is always referring to ethnic malays. Not true. When someone is talking about the country of Malaysia and identifying someone as a citizen off that country the word "Malaysian" is used. That is what the word means. Malaysian exports are products exported from the country of Malaysia, not just products made by Malays. People are Malaysian if they are citizens of Malaysia, even if they are not Malay.
back to nick's mum: her name, her look, and the name of her daughter and nick's middle name clearly indicate a malay identity. That's all original research. Find any reliable source that says she is Malay and that can be included. Without such a source, we can include no statement of any kind about her ethnicity.
the best reference on the issue ie. half-malaysian. You put a lot of stock in what a manager who might have no expertise on ethnicities said one time in an off-the-cuff comment to a reporter. There are many many sources that say she is Malaysian and only one that says half-Malaysian. That plus the fact that being half-Malaysian is impossible is reason enough not to include it. Just because some people are sloppy in their language does not mean Wikipedia should be as well. 99.192.65.39 (talk) 00:35, 6 July 2014 (UTC) (=99.192.83.52)
well you have just reinforced your ignorance. i completely agree that malaysian exports don't imply they are made only by malays. but please do not compare oranges and apples. we are talking about malaysian as an ethnic/national identity. we are not talking about products. find me one chinese malaysian who is only ever referred to as malaysian? Can you do the same for an indian-malaysian? when used singularly, malaysian equates to malay, as i already explained in some detail.
my speculation about her looks etc weren't meant to be anything more than an illustration of my point. please don't focus on an issue i myself have given no weight.
sloppy language?! how is that sloppy?! rather that shows the greater knowledge of his manager simply because half is adding greater detail than just malaysian. his manager makes it clear in the reference that nick is of greek and half-malaysian identity. that is as specific as we currently have. unless you have something that says his manager is wrong or uneducated or you know nick more intimately then i don't see why it should be removed. your opinion that half-malaysian is impossible is just wrong: just as someone can be half-american and half-italian etc., so can someone be half-malaysian and half something else.58.111.196.44 (talk) 01:51, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
Malaysia is a country, not an ethnicity. So any Malaysian person regardless of their ethnicity traveling outside of Malaysia and asked what their nationality is, the answer is "Malaysian", not "Chinese-Malaysian" or "Indian-Malaysian". I previously referred to the use of "Malaysian" when what a person means is "Malay" as sloppy, but now it seems clear it is sot sloppy, it's just racist. To refuse to use the word "Malaysian" without a qualifier like "Chinese" or "Indian" when talking about citizenship of a person who is not Malay is just plain racist. Wikipedia should neither endorse nor perpetuate racism. All Malaysian citizens, regardless of their ethnicity, are all "Malaysian". The Malaysian Olympic team all march as one nationality under one flag and with one word to describe them all: Malaysian.
To that point, I now have to wonder if the racism is not just your problem. I decided to try to meet your challenge to find a Chinese-Malaysian who is only referred to as Malaysian. I found Lee Chong Wei, one of the best badminton players in the world. In one article I found (from the BBC) he is referred to as " the most successful Malaysian Olympian ever".[1] The word "Chinese" does not appear in the article at all. In another article (from India) we are told, "Lin Dan of China became the first man to retain the Olympic badminton singles title after beating Malaysian archrival Lee Chong Wei."[2]. Even in an article about him playing a Chinese man, no mention is made that Lee is "Chinese" in any sense. He is just called "Malaysian". So it seems the world media is not as racist as you think they might be. They do not always discount a person's nationality because of their ethnicity.
"your opinion that half-malaysian is impossible is just wrong: just as someone can be half-american and half-italian etc." Someone is only ever referred to as "half American" if what is meant is that one parent is American and the other parent is not. So by that description, since Kyrgios's father was born in Greece and mother born in Malaysia, Kyrgios is half-Greek, half-Malaysian. This is a different sort of claim than one about his nationality, which is 100% Australian, as he was born and raised there. To say his mother is half-Malaysian would be to say that one of her parents was not Malaysian, but from some other country. But at the same time, as someone born and raised in Malaysia, she is 100% Malaysian by nationality. So the most sense that can be made of the manager's comment is that he was indicating that one of Kyrgios' maternal gradparents was not born in Malaysia. But even if true, his mother was born there so she is, like all other people who are citizens by birth, 100% Malaysian. To refuse to acknowledge that she is 100% Malaysian because you suspect she is ethnically part Indian is racist. Wikipedia should not endorse that. 99.192.67.219 (talk) 12:45, 6 July 2014 (UTC) (=99.192.83.52)
ADDENDUM: Since you seem to want to put so much weight on an off-the-cuff comment made by Kyrgios's manager, I thought it might be worth noting what a more official source says. According to his official website, "Nick was born to parents George who is Greek and mother Norlaila who is from Malaysia". Nothing is said about her being "half" anything. And from an interview of Kyrgios on the official Wimbledon page he says, "My mom is Malaysian." Nothing is said about her being "half" anything. Since all media reports that mention his mother say "Malaysian" and not "half-Malaysian" and since Kyrgios himself said "My mom is Malaysian", not "half-Malaysian" I would say that clearly trumps the manager's comment. 99.192.67.219 (talk) 13:00, 6 July 2014 (UTC) (=99.192.83.52)

could you please reply more succinctly because it becomes very arduous to follow and respond to your points when they are so long.
1st i am quite insulted that you accuse me of being a racist. did i ever state that i was in support of the malay seeing themselves as the only true residents of malaysia? no. i was merely stating a reality that exists on the ground. so please don't make insulting insinuations.
this argument seems to be quite circular, so i just have a simple question: why did nick's manager state half for? you say that everyone else describes him as just plain malaysian, so why this different, seemingly unnecessary, description? put simply, his manager wouldn't use such a word if it wasn't true. & since this is the most detailed description of his identity that we currently have, i don't see why it should be removed until it is categorically proven false ie. until nick, his family, or manager come out and say that his mum is only of malaysian descent - not half-malaysian.58.106.231.241 (talk) 06:42, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

(1) If reading four paragraphs is too much for you to manage, maybe you should not be trying to edit Wikipedia pages. When there are many points to cover, sometimes it takes some space to be clear and precise. Like this reply, for example.
(2) You have misread what I wrote. I did not accuse you of being racist. I suggested that you were doing exactly what you said you were doing in your most recent comment on this page, namely, you were suggesting that racism about the use of the word "Malaysian" is common and suggesting that Wikipedia should use the racist way it is used. I also pointed out through the sources I offered that you have overestimated the degree of that racism in the media. It is quite common for people who are not Malay to be referred to simply as "Malaysian" without a qualifier like "Chinese" or "Indian". But regardless, Wikipedia should not perpetuate racism where it exists. We need not (and do not) only use "Malaysian" for people who are Malay.
(3) About Kyrgios's manager, it is odd that you will not accept Kyrgios's own words over his. He said, "My mom is Malaysian." Surely he would know better than his manager. As for explaining the manager's comment, there are many possibilities. As you agree, he is the only person who has ever said "half", so it could just have been him misspeaking. After all, Kyrgios is often referred to as "half-Greek, half-Malaysian" [NB: It is never "one quarter-Malaysian"], so maybe in speaking off the cuff he tripped up over the fact that Kyrgios is half-Malaysian and said it of his mother. Or maybe she is half-Malaysian in the sense I explained above about being half-American, which does not preclude her also being 100% Malaysian in terms of her own birth citizenship. At the very least, these explanations for his comment do not have the problem yours does, which is, in effect, to accuse the manager of being racist for not counting Kyrgios's mother as fully Malaysian because of her ethnicity. WP:BLP would not approve of that.
(4) But the bottom line is this: 99% of all sources say that his mother is Malaysian, not half-Malaysian. This includes his own official webpage and words he spoke himself in an interview. He also is often called "half-Malaysian" and never been called "one quarter-Malaysian", so even sources that like to parse his identity grant his mother is 100% Malaysian. In the face of all that overwhelming evidence you still seem to need to insist that his mother be referred to as "half-Malaysian" based on one source that contradicts the 99% of others. That seems very peculiar. It is beyond doubt that she is Malaysian, so why not have the page say that? Surely WP:BLP, especially WP:NPF, would counsel us to stick with what is indisputable about her: She was born in Malaysia and as such counts as being "Malaysian". 99.192.93.56 (talk) 13:06, 7 July 2014 (UTC) (=99.192.83.52)
you should try and keep your arguments succinct as much as possible because not all contributors are employed by wikipedia: time is precious and you should make the site easy for others to get involved in.
your 3 point is irrelevant because it is all your own speculation. the manager could be right, the manager could be wrong. until someone says he is wrong and that nick's mum is strictly malaysian then we shouldn't question his words. in fact, i could similarly speculate that those who mention only malaysian simply do so for conveniences sake, or perhaps they are embarrassed of the other identity etc.
the reason i am sticking on this is purely because i am after the most specific and accurate detail possible on the subject. after all this is what nick deserves, seeing as he is now under global attention and a rising star.58.106.231.241 (talk) 01:21, 8 July 2014 (UTC)


Q is he really 9'7" ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.2.12.71 (talk) 13:27, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Controversies[edit]

The on-court behavior of Kyrgios has received a fair amount of press, so likely something about that can go in the article. But the following was added to the lead without any references. This sort of material must be sourced, per WP:BLP. Also, the lead is supposed to be a summary of the article, but there was nothing in the article about Fraser. Here's the content that was added to the lead:

He has been involved in on- and off-court controversies, most notably involving Dawn Fraser.

I'm posting it here for discussion. Perhaps we can draft something here about his behavior before putting it in the article. TimidGuy (talk) 10:20, 10 July 2015 (UTC)