Talk:Ralph Nader/Archive 6

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Archive 1 ← Archive 4 Archive 5 Archive 6 Archive 7

The Lead

As someone who has never looked at this article before today, I would like to share my impression of the lead, as it seems to be a point on contention above.

  • The first 3 paragraphs sound like a typical well written lead content.
  • The 4th paragraph is pure hagiography. It's nothing but a list of accolades and does nothing to explain to me who Ralph Nader is.
  • The 5th paragraph is a digression with no context given. It doesn't even say who "Gore" is or why anyone thinks that Nader was responsible for Bush becoming president. Imagine reading this paragraph as someone unfamiliar with American politics. It would be totally unintelligible. Why not just say "Some people claim that Nader acted as a third party 'spoiler' in the 2000 U.S. presidential election, while others, including Nader, dispute this claim." Simple and to the point. We don't have to hash out the entire debate in the lead.

Kaldari (talk) 20:23, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks very much for coming here and offering your insights. We definitely need new input. Richwales (talk · contribs) 20:58, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
I think that Kaldari is basically correct, and personally I'd like to see the page edited as I mentioned in my post above (21:02, 10 August 2011): make a chronological history section (instead of cutting it up between Early/Activism/Presidential campaigns) and move those two paragraphs out. Best, Markvs88 (talk) 14:44, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
I agree. Mystylplx (talk) 21:50, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
I also agree with Kaldari's reasoning & Markvs88's idea.--JayJasper (talk) 18:17, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

So how about this--we follow Kaldari's suggestion for now, as Markvs88's suggestion will take more time and work, then when Markvs88's suggestions are ready change to that? Mystylplx (talk) 19:44, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea, I support that.--JayJasper (talk) 23:34, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
I think Unsafe at any Speed should be mentioned before his presidential campaigns and the criticism of his 2000 run put right next to the sentence about his campaigns. Steve Dufour (talk) 21:35, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

There is no citation listed that states Nader refers to himself as a progressive.

I believe Nader doesnt like to label himself outside of being a consumer activist and has many stances that are not along the progressive ideology and has ran for non-progressive political parties such as the Reform Party. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.240.255.227 (talk) 21:06, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Good point. He's commonly characterized as a progressive but really isn't and doesn't refer to himself as such. Mystylplx (talk) 00:32, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Author? Activist? Candidate?

I notice that the first sentence only says he is an activist. That seems fair enough, although I would have said "author and activist" since he first came to public notice with his book Unsafe at any Speed and has written quite a few since then. It also could be made more clear that his role as a candidate for president is an aspect of his activism, not a serious attempt to win the office. Right now it makes it seem that he is trying to become president. Steve Dufour (talk) 21:30, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

It seems appropriate to include "author" in the lead sentence, given that he has written extensively and is noted for his writings as well as his activism.--JayJasper (talk) 21:39, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
While I tend to agree his Presidential runs were not serious and were a part of his activism, I don't think we can assume that here. See wp:or. But I'd say "author, activist, and Presidential candidate" would be a fair short description. Mystylplx (talk) 19:59, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
BTW, his writing was also a part of his activism, just as his Presidential runs were, so if we are to choose only one then "activist" would be the main one. Mystylplx (talk) 20:01, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
Steve Dufour, you are a breath of fresh air. 99.12.181.124 (talk) 07:19, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
I see that other subject articles contain mention of accolades, e.g., Nobel Prize awards, and the like, in the lead. I think it's time to restore these mentions, which are sourced. 99.12.181.124 (talk) 20:14, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 29 May 2012

After reading this article, I went on a hunt for one of the books listed - "Operation: Nuclear" - under the Activist Movement heading. I was able to find information on every other book listed, but even a search of the Library of Congress failed to yield so much as the author or ISBN of "Operation: Nuclear." This title appears to have been added to the book list separately from the other titles (see below). It also appears to have been added anonymously (see below). Unless someone can verify that this book indeed exists, I think it should be removed from the list.

(cur | prev) 01:51, 29 December 2004‎ 210.213.129.178 (talk)‎ . . (32,427 bytes) (+116)‎ . . (→‎Activist movement)

137.100.121.30 (talk) 21:19, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

 Done I searched several places and can find absolutely no reference to this book--except those coming from the WP article. — UncleBubba ( T @ C ) 03:56, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Factual Error: Religion

Ralph Nader is not an "Eastern Orthodox Christian." The sources that are cited don't even make such a claim. He is a Maronite, which is not Eastern Orthodox. Claiming he's orthodox even contradicts Wikipedia, as he's listed in the notable Maronites page. There's even a book called American Maronites: Ralph Nader, Khalil Gibran, Ray Lahood, Laura Nader, John Zogby, James Zogby, Danny Thomas, John D. Faris, Walid Phares.

I would edit the article myself, but I don't have the ability to do so.

Unless I'm mistaken Maronites are a subset of Eastern Orthodox. More to the point is there's really no evidence Nader has any religion at all. His parents were Maronite, but Nader himself has never, to my knowledge, spoken of having any religious faith whatsoever. Mystylplx (talk) 04:27, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
Actually, no, Maronites are not Eastern Orthodox. The Maronite church is an Eastern Catholic church — in full communion with the Roman Catholic Church, though with its own separate traditions. As I recall, the sources about Ralph Nader say he was raised an "Orthodox Christian", which is an ambiguous term that can refer either to Eastern Orthodox or Oriental Orthodox believers. I never did manage to find any source to disambiguate which type of Orthodox was involved (or even if the author of the source understood the difference). However, to the best of my understanding, the Maronite church is neither "Eastern Orthodox" nor "Oriental Orthodox", so if Nader's background is Maronite, this would mean the sources saying his family was "Orthodox" are in error. — Richwales 05:05, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
Concur with Richwales. The Maronite Church is Catholic and is in full communion with the Holy See. For Mystylplx to assume the belief that Maronites are a subset of Eastern Orthodoxy is ignorance parading as truth. The same holds true with Nader not professing any religious faith. For a discussion of Nader's beliefs, see his authored book, The Seventeen Traditions: Regan Books, 2007. ISBN 0061238279. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.186.148.157 (talk) 22:08, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
Zahle, Lebanon is a pretty damn maronite area of lebanon. seeing that his parents are from there, probably makes him maronite. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.203.194.50 (talk) 01:51, 3 September 2012 (UTC)


Isn't he queer? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.252.106.212 (talk) 19:42, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 7 June 2012

There is no credible citation of an article on the page that cites Ralph Nader as Eastern Orthodox Christian, and after searching exhaustively, I've only found either him mentioned nondenominationally as a "Christian" or coming from a "Maronite" family, which is an Eastern Catholic Church. I think the factually incorrect information (i.e. that he is Orthodox) should be removed, and replaced by either simply Christian to avoid specifications based on a religion he's never publicly identified with, or Maronite and cite the various books that reference him as an important American Maronite. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.50.221.181 (talk • contribs) 15:40, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

That would be fine, in principle. Can you give us detailed citation information for your sources (i.e., specifically identify one or more of "the various books that reference him as an important American Maronite")? As I mentioned earlier (see above), the sources cited already in the article have called Nader an "Orthodox Christian" — but this is an ambiguous term which could refer either to Eastern Orthodoxy or Oriental Orthodoxy, and there doesn't seem to be any indication as to which of these was meant, or even if the authors of the sources understood this distinction. — Richwales 17:16, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 18 September 2012

At the top of the page it says that Mr. Nader parents are Maronite Catholics and in another location it says Mr. Nader himself is, correctly, identified as a Maronite Catholic. Later in the body of the text it says Mr. Nader is an Eastern Orthodox Christian which is incorrect. Maronite Catholics are not Eastern Orthodox but are part of the Catholic church with their own liturgy. While both are Christian and similar in theological teaching they are different. 108.48.23.101 (talk) 05:33, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Both those mentions (at the beginning of the "Early life" section and at the beginning of the "Personal life" section) are cited to the same book. This seems contradictory, but I do not have access to the book to verify which of the two is true. —KuyaBriBriTalk 14:53, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
 Not done The IP has identified an important contradiction in the article, but until sourcing can be found to determine which is the correct description, there's nothing to be done here..... Sailsbystars (talk) 23:19, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

"Nader's safety-focused activism negatively affected the cause of eco-efficiency.[26]"

Seems to me this line, although "sourced," needs explanation, context, and a verification that the source actually says this. Unvanquished (talk) 02:20, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. It needs to gone, as it seems to cast a negative light on Nader in light of the fact all of these wikipedia articles are supposed to be neutral...70.17.255.50 (talk) 19:23, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 16 July 2013

The infobox contains two instances of the same citation for Nader's religion, one of which should be removed. 129.199.224.149 (talk) 14:30, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Done 786b6364 (talk) 16:08, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Additional link under See Also heading

Please consider linking to Canadian consumer advocate Phil Edmonston under "See also" heading. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.106.6.2 (talk) 15:28, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Television appearance

He hosted an episode of Saturday Night Live on January 15 1977, when the show was only in its second season. Incidentally, it was Bill Murray's first episode as part of the cast. Season 2, Episode 11.

He was probably the second person hosting the show without an involvement in the entertainment industry, as Ron Nessen, White House press secretary, had hosted an episode the previous year, as a sort of stand-in for Gerald Ford. (On a more subjective note, Ralph Nader proved to be far more talented for acting and comedy than Ron Nessen.) Guthrog (talk) 18:21, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

Confirmation of this may currently be found at http://snltranscripts.jt.org/76/76k.phtml. PRFunky (talk) 03:40, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 February 2015

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=11231 Please add to external links. S.thornton.taylor (talk) 23:20, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Not done: rationale? Why this particular interview vs any other? And if it is particularly noteworthy, why would it not be mentioned in the text? Cannolis (talk) 01:15, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Why is his ethnicity so important?

In the first line of the current lede, it states:

"Ralph Nader (/ˈneɪdər/, Arabic: رالف نادر; born February 27, 1934)[4][5] is an Arab American political activist of Lebanese origin, "

Really? The editors of this page seriously think the first and foremost fact to stress about this guy is he is an Arab American of Lebanese origin. What has his background got to do with his notabilities? It goes without saying - to any non-American - that putting someone's ethnicity before their accomplishments has the appearance of overt racism. Knowing something about Wikipedia, doesn't this statement contravene WP:UNDUE? That the reader has to know he is an Arab American, why can't he be just an American? Surely his lineage and ethnic background should be confined to an "early life" or "personal" section? 31.51.45.255 (talk) 10:33, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

On BLPs, ethnicity does seem to be the first thing people mention, and usually causes lots of arguments, which results in a compromise of listing every nationality in some order that's still disputed. I agree it's not the most important things, but it seems to be the way BLPs get written. Joseph2302 (talk) 17:45, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
No, usually it is not the way BLPs get written. Citizenship/nationality does get mentioned as one of the very first things in most BLPs, but not ethnicity. Compare some other bios of Green Party candidates and other minor party/independent candidates: David Cobb, Jill Stein, Harry Browne, Michael Badnarik, Bob Barr, Gary Johnson, Chuck Baldwin, Michael Peroutka, Howard Phillips, Ross Perot. Not one of them has their ethnic background indicated in the lead section. And I don't understand why Nader's name appears in Arabic characters in the lead. Do the editors here want to present him as a foreigner as opposed to an American? --Metropolitan90 (talk) 05:06, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
In fact, the Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biographies even covers this issue. See MOS:BLPLEAD:

The opening paragraph should usually have:

  1. Name(s) and title(s), if any (see, for instance, also Wikipedia:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility));
  2. Dates of birth and death, if known (but for dates of birth see WP:BLPPRIVACY, which takes precedence); for how to write these dates, see Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers#Dates of birth and death;
  3. Context (location or nationality);
    1. In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, or if notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable.
    2. Ethnicity or sexuality should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. ...

So that's an indication that Nader's ethnic background should not be put into the opening paragraph. It should be included in the article, but not in the lead because it is not relevant to his notability. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 04:33, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

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request to remove Automobile safety activism section

I really don't see where that's relevant or how that has anything to do with Nader at all my fellow wikipediphiles. That should be removed for a more brisk article — Preceding unsigned comment added by NOTGM (talk • contribs) 11:09, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

I , or anyone , only need about 18 times each $2700 donation , one in each of 18 states to pay for preparing petitions in each of 50 states to run for President as write in , for instance I may do it in Ohio to get 18 signatures of 18 unafiliated voters for maybe $300. , and in California for $1000. , depending ? Can you/ will you help get this money raised ? I have 6 more months only ! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.60.169.20 (talk) 19:17, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Humanitarianism -> Humanism

In the first paragraph the term humanitarianism should be changed to humanism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.181.145.118 (talk) 16:45, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

Environmentalism -> Environmental Protection

In the first paragraph the term environmentalism should be changed to environmental protection. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.181.145.118 (talk) 16:53, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

Page size check

This article is currently prose size (text only): 29 kB (4799 words) "readable prose size", about half of the length at which the length of an article begins to become an issue as per our guideline WP:SIZE. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 14:53, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

That doesn't mean inaccurate or biased material needs to be included. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 16:01, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

general note

This article is a real mess. I'm in the process of cleaning it up and adding some stuff. There may be some missing citations and other issues over the coming days. LavaBaron (talk) 22:57, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

list of results where Ralph Nader had more votes than differences between winning Republican candidates and losing Democrat candidates

1996 Colorado 2000 Florida 2000 New Hampshire 2008 Missouri — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.67.87.8 (talk) 15:55, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

"Spoiler" ? Al Gore had more votes

FACT. Al Gore had more votes than Bush. See result at upper right on: United States presidential election, 2000 Nader couldn't help it that Bush v Gore at the Supreme Court gave the election to Bush despite Gore having more popular votes then Bush. Also Gore couldn't even carry his home state of Tenn which would have made Florida recount as moot. CaribDigita (talk) 20:00, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

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Presidential campaign table

It's very annoying when a table or map provides no explanation for a symbol or color coding. Is there an explanation for the color coding in the maps for ballot access anywhere in the article? If not I plan to remove that column until someone can provide it. Sundayclose (talk) 17:19, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

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Just wanted to add to the page that he was on Ali G:) (aka Da Ali G Show)

Sasha got him to talk about Global Warming & say the word "asshole", in reference to using the methane from a cow's gaseous expenditures by putting a box on it:)

Ralph Nader and Microsoft / Bill Gates

Nader and the Consumer Project on Technology (a group he founded) put a lot of pressure on Microsoft in the late 90s. Does this deserve mention in the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wiseoleman17 (talk • contribs) 19:29, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 April 2019

Please change [1]

to [2] PippaDiggs (talk) 14:37, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

 Done Thank you for your contribution to Wikipedia! Breawycker (talk to me!) 01:18, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
Parking refs for readability
  1. ^ "Ralph Nader Biography – Academy of Achievement". Achievement.org. Archived from the original on 2010-12-13. Retrieved 2011-01-01. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
  2. ^ "Ralph Nader Biography and Interview". www.achievement.org. American Academy of Achievement.

Military Service

The source used makes no mention of military service. Is there any evidence of his military service? I have never heard of someone serving for just one year. Also, law graduates usually join the JAG corps instead of being cookers. I briefly searched the topic, and the only source I found appears to be a CNN article that also provides no sources.

Is Ralph Nader a social critic?

He has strong opinions when it comes to "stylistic pornography", "nintendos", "screens", and "driverless cars" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.40.95.20 (talk) 07:00, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Problems with the In-popular culture section

 The following discussion has been copied here from my talk page in its entirety where it can continue in the proper forum. Please comment and/or continue the discussion below. Thank you. Toddst1 (talk) 02:30, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Discussion from User talk:Toddst1

Where does it say that something has to have had a significant impact on pop culture to be in someone's "In popular culture" section? Thanks. Mbsyl (talk) 20:58, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

@Mbsy: Take a look at MOS:POPCULT Toddst1 (talk) 23:10, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
Toddst1 I don't see how what you deleted was "categorically trivial."
One example of something you deleted: "Californian punk rock band NOFX's 2003 song "Franco Un-American" includes the line "the President's laughing 'cause we voted for Nader", referring to Nader's possible role in inadvertently changing the result of the 2000 U.S. presidential election."
"Media coverage of a topic is generally encyclopedic information, helps establish the topic's notability, and helps readers understand the subject's influence on the public" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Trivia_sections#POPCULT
Your interpretation of this section seems to be incorrect. The reference you deleted does just what the section you referenced calls for In Popular Culture sections to do.
Due to the extreme size of the change and you seeming to not have looked carefully at what you were doing, I am going to revert your change until you can give a persuasive argument for the deletion.Mbsyl (talk) 20:39, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
@Mbsl: We're not talking about establishing the WP:NOTABILITY of the topic. We're talking about impact on pop culture. Look carefully, as you say. If you did, you would have read a bit further and seen "Short cultural references sections should usually be entirely reworked into the main flow of the article. If a separate section for this material is maintained, the poorest approach is a list, which will attract the addition of trivia." which is exactly what this section is and has been festering since it was flagged in 2017. In 2 years, no progress, so this poorly-sourced (actually unsourced) section should be removed.
But obviously, you disagree - So what are you doing to address the problem that you just re-added to the article (as signified by the tag from 2017)?
And by the way, inactivity in a discussion for 2 weeks or more usually means it's "concluded". Toddst1 (talk) 22:38, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

— Preceding text originally posted on User talk: Toddst1. Please continue discussion below.
Since no objections were raised after more than a week, I've gone ahead and addressed this issue, removing the section. Toddst1 (talk) 05:46, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

Where does it talk about WHY Ralph Nader decided to run as a third-party candidate?

I need this for a project and I can't find anywhere. So, can anyone tell me? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:BD3D:D290:6821:D65B:7B93:25D1 (talk) 23:53, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 April 2020

Davidcollin1221 (talk) 20:21, 6 April 2020 (UTC) i have new info

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Mdaniels5757 (talk) 20:41, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

New infobox image

My proposal

Can we switch the infobox image to this? I know that it’s four years older, but it’s clearer, higher resolution, and more portrait like. Thoughts Relevation Animations (talk) 02:39, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

  • He's not looking at the camera
  • Microphone blocking his face
  • Poorly cropped
  • Blurry object in left background. Elizium23 (talk) 02:55, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
OK then, let’s talk about all the reasons that the current image is unsuited for the lead image.
  • It’s blurry
  • He has an odd facial expression
  • It’s mostly a head shot when we typically like wider shots for bios.
  • Ralph Nader was a much more important figure on the political scene back in the 2000s so it makes sense to use an image from that time period. Relevation Animations (talk) 12:25, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Claims

Nader does not "claim to purchase" things, he says he purchases them. Per WP:CLAIM, which references our neutral point of view policy. Elizium23 (talk) 05:55, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

List of organizations Nader has helped found

I saw this list in a version of this article from 2004:

I am not sure if they all qualify as notable, but I’ll be checking all of them. Thriley (talk) 18:03, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Personality and character traits

hello i have a question concerning the entire part of "Personality and character traits"

the question is the following: what?

and i also may add: why?

if you try to describe -for whatever reason and with what ever relevance- a person in 3 sentences, thats framing not scrutiny. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.100.35.1 (talk) 11:52, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

There are 5 independent, secondary sources for this section. None of those sources seem to be writing in a particularly sensationalist or tabloid gossip style. It would seem to be of note that Nader eschews riches, fashion, wealth, and their trappings, along with marriage and family life. This is rather counter-cultural of him and reinforces his message of activism. Elizium23 (talk) 22:23, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
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