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Name

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Most reference books have his full name as "Sabu Dastigir", but research by journalist Philip Liebfried suggests that was his brother's name, and that Sabu was in fact Selar Shaik Sabu. SteveCrook 16:22, 13 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

He appears in the United States Social Security Death Index as:[1]
  • SABU DASTAGIR 27 Jan 1924 Dec 1963 (not specified) (none specified) 557-24-7174 California
That's about as clear as it gets. Whether he may have borrowed his brother's name or not isn't really relevant to much of anything--there is no magic, God-given name by which people are known. Gene Nygaard 22:49, 18 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

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Sabu Dastagir → Sabu – Name that the person was credited as, a la Sting, and Cher ....(Complain)(Let us to it pell-mell) 05:29, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

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Support - Should be done to conform with rest of Wiki. Also, the name is not clarified. ....(Complain)(Let us to it pell-mell) 05:29, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - As seen on the disambiguation page, other entries have stake to this name, perhaps the most notable being Terry Brunk (to which most of the errant links to the disambiguation page are intended). That article already has "Sabu (wrestler)" as a redirect, why not "Sabu (actor)" here? Tromboneguy0186 07:14, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per above. Make Sabu a disambig after merging and eliminating Sabu (disambiguation). Keep Sabu Dastagir and/or list Sabu (actor) on the new page. Voice of Treason 23:23, 7 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I moved the disambiguation page to the standard name, and I changed the link in Voice of Treason's post so that I can delete the other page. -- Kjkolb 05:46, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose that this page be renamed as Sabu, there are other claimants to the name. How about having this page renamed as Sabu (actor) with Sabu Dastagir redirecting to that. The disabmbiguation page for Sabu can then split out for the wrestler, the actor, the band (run by the son of the actor) and any others. But this page should certainly be renamed. As noted earlier on this Talk page, it's even doubtful that the actor's name was ever actually Dastagir SteveCrook 00:37, 8 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Result

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No move. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 16:09, 9 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What about moving it to Sabu (actor) and maikng Sabu a disabmbiguation page? -- SteveCrook 19:51, 9 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Military service

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I have a question about Sabu's Military Service? I assume he served in the Army Air Corps, not the Air Force. Can anyone verify this?~~Dan Wright~~

That's what it says in the article. And in everything I've read about him -- SteveCrook 21:45, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There was no US air force at the time.203.184.41.226 (talk) 22:49, 9 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Please add: (verify by list of actors who served in WWII-found through common search! Sabu served in the Army Air Corps. He served on bombers as a tail gunner or top gunner. He flew 42 on missions. (He was wounded, damaging his heart which later killed him at an early age.) Highly decorated for bravery: received the Distinguished Flying cross, The Five air Medal and Presidential Unit Citation, for Exemplary Service. CITED ON A PAGE: "ACTORS WHO SERVED IN WWI and WWII!" Also check biography. I believe his widow is still living.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.103.168.142 (talk) 21:42, 5 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Dubious

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Athough I believe it's true that the book cited does claim this, I see no reason why Sabu should claim Pakistan as his mother country. He didn't come from the region that became Pakistan and he wasn't Moslem. Are any more explanations or details given in the book? -- SteveCrook 22:03, 8 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think the claim is pure rubbish. The book in question is clearly a Pro-Pakistani tirde, and the details given are slim. If you want, I could type in the section where Sabu Dastagir (aka Sabu Francis) is discussed, if it does not violate WikiPedia copyright policy. I think the part about the book should be deleted as it is a printed work of no great credibility. Unsigned comment by 122.161.155.202 18:10, 10 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"Sabu Fancis"?? It sounds even more dubious. I'd be quite happy if that section was just deleted -- SteveCrook 20:24, 10 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

He was a muslim. There's no doubt about that. It was only when he was in the army did he convert to the Baptist faith. And I agree, it is highly dubious that he claimed Pakistani as his nationality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.148.131.199 (talk) 20:42, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why do you say that there is "no doubt" that he was a muslim? I'd have thought that there was a lot of doubt. That's why I originally raised the point. Do you have any citations or references? -- SteveCrook (talk) 21:38, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Umm...first of all, there's the little matter of names: Salar, Shaikh and Dastagir are Muslim names; the first two derived from Arabic words, and the last Persian. --iFaqeer (talk) 10:18, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

PS: Isn't it rather odd that everybody "refuting" this point passionately chooses to write anonymously? Isn't there a Wikipedia policy that anonymous comments are to be given less weight? --iFaqeer (talk) 10:59, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tribute to Sabu Invitation to all who love his work

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Please visit the web site www.singleparentsfoundation.org for an invitation to this fabulous event. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.101.180.157 (talk) 17:51, 30 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The box on the right of the Sabu article has a link to Marilyn Cooper as Sabu's wife. The article, however, appears to be about another Marilyn Cooper, with a different date of birth and no reference to a marriage. The link also is found in the article on Sabu's son Paul Sabu.Karlpov (talk) 16:43, 16 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You could have unlinked them. That's how Wikipedia works. But now I've done it -- SteveCrook (talk) 18:16, 16 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Religion

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According to Dror Izhar, page 12 of Quit India: The Image of the Indian Patriot on Commercial British Film and Television, 1956-1985, Sabu Dastagir was Muslim. "Said Jaffrey, born in 1929, and Sabu Dastagir (1925–1963), both Muslim Indians who apparently never met, had very different destinies. Dastagir was employed as a groom in the court of a Prince in an “independent” princedom. When he was twelve, Dastagir was discovered by the American documentary filmmaker Robert Flaherty, who directed a feature film in 1936 entitled Elephant Boy with Zoltan Korda. Korda and his brother Alexander, a Jewish-Austro-Hungarian-British film producer and director in his own right, turned Sabu into a star. As a child, he was exploited by them and gained recognition and fame in exotic films such as The Drum (1938) and thus, in my view, Dastagir was a victim of the British occupation of India. When he reached adulthood, he fought in World War II and won a medal of honor as a pilot. He then moved to Hollywood, where he starred in several insignificant films, and finally died of a heart attack at the age of thirty-eight."--182.177.8.98 (talk) 22:14, 21 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That's a well balanced view. Sabu was such a victim that he became rich, famous and had a happy family life. I wish I could be a victim like that  :) -- SteveCrook (talk) 01:25, 22 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"Well balanced view" indeed! Making a stable boy into a well paid star is shocking victimization. Wasn't the British Empire appalling!203.184.41.226 (talk) 22:52, 9 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 27 August 2018

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. There are good arguments made on both sides, but ultimately not much agreement between discussants, or enough evidence presented one way or the other, as to whether the full name meets the commonness bar to be considered naturaldis. As such the page remains where it is. (And yes, it was moved without discussion, but that was in 2005 so the long-term stable title is certainly the current one).  — Amakuru (talk) 22:07, 10 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sabu Dastagir → Sabu (actor) – per WP:COMMONNAME. This article was created on June 19, 2005 as Sabu (actor) and moved without discussion to Sabu Dastagir on October 2, 2005. An unsuccessful "Requested move", above, proposed on June 26, 2006 that Sabu become the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC of the Sabu (disambiguation) page. More than twelve years later, Sabu Dastagir, who was never known to the public by such a name, should be restored to Sabu (actor).     Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 20:33, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Note: Announcement of this discussion appears at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film.    Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 15:34, 28 August 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. bd2412 T 20:34, 4 September 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. Bradv 05:16, 9 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Is the current surname "obscure" or "made-up" per WP:NATURALDIS?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Bradv 05:16, 9 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. He was only ever known to the public as Sabu and 'Sabu (actor)' distinguishes him from the wrestler (or the other performer) of the same name. Nobody ever knew him as Sabu Dastagir in the film world -- SteveCrook (talk) 13:44, 9 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry I mean Support, not Oppose. I thought that you were asking about the article being moved from Sabu (actor) to Sabu Dastagir -- SteveCrook (talk) 13:47, 9 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
User talk:Roman Spinner, you should make it clearer what you're asking for here. Is it the change from Sabu (actor) to Sabu Dastagir or the change from Sabu Dastagir to Sabu (actor)? -- SteveCrook (talk) 10:53, 10 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
SteveCrook, I regret if my nomination seems unclear, but the current title of this article is Sabu Dastagir and my nomination does state, as the lead sentence, Sabu Dastagir → Sabu (actor) – per WP:COMMONNAME. The nomination ends with, ... "Sabu Dastagir, who was never known to the public by such a name, should be restored to Sabu (actor)". If you feel that the nomination should be structured more effectively, please discuss it here.    Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 19:32, 10 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. I don't know what the others above are looking at, but going down the current reference list, all introduce him using "Sabu Dastagir".
1. "However, not many are aware of Mysorean Mysorean Sabu Dastagir whose debut movie ..."
2. "When Sabu Dastagir, the boy mahout from ..."
3. IMDB NB. unreliable for any Wikipedia purpose, they draw from Wikipedia. "Sabu Dastagir (or Selar Shaik Sabu, depending on your resource)"
4. "His full name is the subject of some controversy. Most reference books have it as 'Sabu Dastagir', but his son Paul confirmed that his real name was Selar Sabu, although his brother's was Sheik Dastagir. (Note "most reference books", and an explanation for why casual coverage uses just "Sabu")
5. "... and Sabu Dastagir (1925–1963), ..."
I'm seeing a lot of Sabu Dastagir in the references chosen to best introduce and establish his notability.
Should I guess that others are looking to the newspaper titles? AKA Headlinese. Wikipedia doesn't copy source styles.
--SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:24, 10 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. All actors' directories in which he is listed (published between 1939 and 1963) as well as contemporary press references in the English-speaking world, invariably indicate the name "Sabu", not "Sabu Dastagir". Every one of his films bills him as "Sabu". Furthermore, film encyclopedias (Katz, Maltin, Halliwell, etc) and websites indicate his name, without exception, as "Sabu".
Here is his listing at IMDb, AFI Catalog, BFI, TCM, AllMovie, TVGuide, Rotten Tomatoes, NNDb and Virtual History (which lists four additional encyclopedic film books, all of which indicate him as "Sabu"). As for google books, if one enters "Madonna", there will be immediate mentions of Madonna Ciccone, if one enters "Prince", there will be immediate mentions of Prince Rogers Nelson, etc, but no one has suggested that WP:NATURALDIS should guide us to use those names rather than Madonna (entertainer) or Prince (musician).
The bibliography appended, as of this writing, to Sabu's article itemizes three books, all of which list him as "Sabu" — one of those books is a full-length biography — Leibfried, Philip. Star of India: The Life and Films of Sabu. Oklahoma; BearManor Media, 2010.
Under "External links", in addition to IMDb, we have BFI Screenonline biography which lists him as "Sabu", a reprint of Sabu's October 1989 biographical article from Films in Review which lists him as "Sabu" and refers to his wife (birth name Marilyn Cooper) as "Mrs. Marilyn Sabu" and "Mrs. Sabu" and a November 2011 essay from the Criterion Collection release of Elephant Boy is entitled "Eclipse Series 30: Sabu!".
Here is a review of another book-length Sabu biography — SABU, MICHAEL LAWRENCE, BFI/PALGRAVE MACMILLAN, LONDON, 2014 (ISBN 978-1-84457-455-1) and, finally, here is Sabu's star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame.    Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 06:49, 10 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Sabu's historical notability rests upon his career as a performer, with his stage name having had a distinctive four-letter form. As for reliable sources, the key resources for researching actors are contemporary actor directories and present-day scholarly venues such as British Film Institute and American Film Institute. In addition to BFI and AFI, TCM is highly regarded, as well as learned publications such as Films in Review, which interviewed Sabu's widow, Marilyn Cooper in 1989 and quoted her as referring to herself as "Mrs. Sabu" and "Mrs. Marilyn Sabu". The two book-length biographies both refer to him as "Sabu" on the cover and throughout the text. His WP:COMMONNAME was not "Sabu Dastagir", but "Sabu", as depicted on his Walk of Fame star. The sources that refer to him as "Sabu Dastagir" are either non-film sources or recent sources which retroactively discovered the name "Dastagir" and mistakenly assume it to have been his common name. Not a single film encyclopedia or film research tool lists him under "D" for "Dastagir" — he is always alphabetized under "S" for the mononym "Sabu".    Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 10:29, 10 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 1 August 2021

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Sabu (actor) per nom. No such user (talk) 13:13, 31 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sabu Dastagir → Sabu (actor) – per WP:COMMONNAME. This article was created on June 19, 2005 as Sabu (actor) and moved without discussion to Sabu Dastagir on October 2, 2005. Wikipedia's main title headers for actors are their stage names, which in this case was "Sabu" (Sabu star on Hollywood Walk of Fame). The sources that refer to him as "Sabu Dastagir" are either non-film sources or recent sources which retroactively discovered the name "Dastagir" and mistakenly assume it to have been his common name. Two full-length book biographies ([3][4]) name him as "Sabu", not as "Sabu Dastagir". Not a single film encyclopedia or film research tool lists him under "D" for "Dastagir" — he is always alphabetized under "S" for the mononym "Sabu". Not an argument for WP:NATURALDIS, otherwise Prince (musician) would be under Prince Rogers Nelson. Here is his listing at IMDb, American Film Institute Catalog, British Film Institute, Turner Classic Movies, AllMovie, TVGuide, NNDb and Virtual History (which lists four additional encyclopedic film books, all of which indicate him as "Sabu"). — Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 05:11, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support per very thorough investigation undertaken by Roman Spinner. His mononym is very clearly the common name, whilst his birth name is just that—a birth name. Sean Stephens (talk) 07:52, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. No obection, on the understanding that we do not have evidence that "Daastagir" was ever a mistake, and that we do know that "Sabu Dastagir" was his legal name. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:41, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Continuing from immediately above. References 1 and 2 say "Sabu Dastagir". Roman is drawing from sources of dubious quality. In south India, names, prenames, surnames, are complicated. The truth here is undiscovered. "Sabu" very possibly was his surname, as Westerners understand a surname. "Dastagir" may have derived from the place or culture of his birth, matching his brother. As a child he moved to the US, gained citizenship, joined the army, transitions through which the convention of his name understandably is confused. Reference 4 offers a snippet of explanation, but it is an unreliable statement of secondary attribution to a child born long after the conversion to American culture, and so the child may very well have never known his fathers' name convention in Mysore 1924. As long as "most reference books list his full name as "Sabu Dastagir" (which was the name he used legally)" is a true statement, the proposed move should be opposed. The sources proffered are less reliable.
"research by journalist Philip Leibfried suggests that his full name was in fact Selar Sabu" has signs unreliability. I track it to here. Weasel words (research by). Asserting "full name" in apparent ignorance of Indian naming conventions, and the "in fact" / "is actually" clause is a typical sign of bluster. Leibfried's "research" is very distant, time and space, from Mysore 1924, and if there was a simple immigration clerical mistake, why did Sabu never correct it? If it was a mistake, he adopted it. More "research" is needed to override "most reference books", and modern listings (eg TVGuide!) are weak evidence over older reference works and his legal name. SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:58, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
American Film Institute and British Film Institute are sources of dubious quality? Two full-length book biographies are unreliable, but posthumous use of the name "Dastagir" by non-film sources is so reliable that it overrides all film sources? Wikipedia lists actors by their stage names and Sabu's stage name was "Sabu" and only "Sabu" throughout his entire career. The name "Dastagir" is not mentioned anywhere in relation to him throughout his entire lifetime.
Here is the photo of his gravestone. Surely, if the family name was "Dastagir" at least the gravestone would indicate such a name. Since Sabu's entire notability rests upon his acting career, not a single film or TV reference mentions him as "Dastagir" and the only such mentions that are submitted as evidence of "Dastagir" are posthumous ones that dwell upon his ethnic background from South Asia, rather than upon the fact that his fame is based on the stage name "Sabu".
His widow Marilyn, his son, Paul Sabu and his daughter Jasmine Sabu have all been using "Sabu" as their surname and none has used "Dastagir". —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 09:04, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
In south India, it is normal to use the fathers given name as surname, with the surname being the first name. It’s a standard Patronymic naming convention that sees the grandchildren not carry the grandfather’s name. The grandchildren using their fathers given name as surname is quite common.
The headstone image is interesting, but the published obituary https://www.latimes.com/local/obituaries/la-me-sabu-19631203-story.html leads with Sabu Dastagir. SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:44, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The LA Times headline states, in fact, "Sabu Dies of Heart Attack" in the same manner as headlines stated, "Prince Dies" and only in the opening sentence does the story mention Sabu's full name as "Sabu Dastagir". Likewise, The New York Times headline was "Sabu the Elephant Boy Is Dead" and only in the story do they refer to him as "Sabu Dastagir". Same with all other obituaries, some of which do not even mention the name "Dastagir".
His biography at the British Film Institute likewise repeats Paul Sabu's statement that "Dastagir" was not his father's family name. Ultimately, whether "Dastagir" was or was not his family name makes no difference since it was not his stage name.
As an obvious example, for over a decade, Madonna's entry was under the main title header "Madonna (entertainer)" and, although her well-known full name Madonna Ciccone had been proposed as the header, it was overwhelmingly rejected. No one is proposing that Cher's header should be Cher Sarkisian.
As we all know very well, Wikipedia main title headers list people by their WP:COMMONNAME. In the same manner as the Walk of Fame, our own List of one-word stage names lists Sabu as "Sabu". —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 14:56, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
User:Roman_Spinner,
Your nomination statement: "recent sources which retroactively discovered the name "Dastagir" and mistakenly assume it to have been his common name" I read this as asserting that "Dastagir" is incorrect. Parhaps my reading of this was mistaken?
"Not a single film encyclopedia or film research tool lists him under "D" for "Dastagir"".
Well yes, because he used "Sabu" as his surname. A common convention is that "Sabu" would have been his given name, another name would be his father's given name, and common to all his sibling. On entering western culture, where his given name "Sabu" would be given to all of his children, it is perfectly logical, and commonplace, for this name to lock in as the family surname going forwards. So, in speculative explanation: "Sabu" was his given name, and "Sabu" was his de facto (not legal) surname, and his family's (wife and children) legal surname. It makes sense he just ran with "Sabu" as a mononym.
Indeed, the "correctness" of "Dastagir" is challenged.
* https://radiantcircus.com/sabu/

"*Sabu’s real name has been unclear. The commonly cited Sabu Dastagir is now thought to be a mistake on his immigration papers. More recent works credit him as Selar Shaik Sabu. "

This I surmise that this derives entirely from
* http://www.powell-pressburger.org/Obits/Sabu/FIR.html

"11 year old Selar Shaik Sabu (Sabu's true name. The name "Dastagir", found in so many reference works, is actually his brother's first name. This error was made when the family passed through Customs in England.) was serving the Maharajah of Mysore as a mahout (elephant driver), just as his father had done before him."

I challenge this challenge from Philip Leibfried in 1989 as unreliable. Leibfried seems completely unaware of variable naming conventions. Many sources give "Sabu Dastagir" as his name, and the court cases give very strong evidence that this was his legal name. Sabu is his given name, to become his family surname. Dastagir comes likely from his fathers given name, or "known as name", or a characteristic of his father, and serves as the family name for him and his siblings.
Can I clarify from you: Is the main thrust that "Sabu" is an acceptable WP:MONONYM? Or do you intentionally weave in the assertion that "Dastagir" was not his name? Sabu is ambiguous. I think I can accept "Sabu (actor)" as a WP:MONONYM, but the lede needs to retain "Sabu Dastagir" as one version of his name, and indeed as his legal name. SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:33, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
User:SmokeyJoe,
All I am proposing is that the main title header of Sabu's article should be "Sabu (actor)", rather than "Sabu Dastagir". I have no objection if the lead sentence starts, as it currently does with, "Sabu Dastagir (born Selar Sabu; 27 January 1924 – 2 December 1963) was an Indian film actor who later gained United States citizenship. Throughout his career he was credited under the name Sabu..."
As long as the main header is moved, I would drop any assertion that "Dastagir" is not his name. It is listed in his obituaries and various other sources and there is no need to challenge it. All my efforts have been centered solely around the main header of his English Wikipedia entry which should reflect his mononymic stage name in the same manner as Wikipedia's own List of one-word stage names reflects all other stage name mononyms. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 01:05, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
OK, User:Roman Spinner, I will drop my objection. I am not a fan of shortening perfectly reasonable titles like the current, and prefer the natural disambiguation of a real name over parenthetical disambiguation, but this case is very analogous to Madonna Louise Ciccone. That is her name. Sabu's name is more complicated, because, unlike in western culture, the notion of a full name is not the same. SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:39, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
User:SmokeyJoe, I thank you for dropping your objection and appreciate being able to arrive at a consensus. Discussions centering on mononyms have tended to confront strongly held views and I can only hope that the coming week will indeed end with this proposal attaining a full consensus. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 02:06, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
My strong concern that "Dastagir" was to be stripped from the article as a "mistake", when it appears to my reading to not be a mistake but a complicated name history, with limited information. As that dominated my thinking, I will not comment on mononym titling and leave it to others. SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:30, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

John Prine song

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American artist John Prine has a well known song tribute to Sabu titled "Sabu Visits the Twin Cities Alone". This live version includes an introduction by Prine in which he describes the live and career of Sabu https://open.spotify.com/track/3BHZLrALymxoFezdgec4Q8?si=2b2a2d45e6c24ff6 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zackbiernat (talk • contribs) 17:12, 8 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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