Talk:Third Temple

Correct names for the First and Second Temples

Discussion about the correct names for the First and Second Temples at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism#Building and destroying the Beit Hamikdash. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 07:57, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Temple discussion at ANI

In response to #Correct names for the First and Second Temples above, please see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#All talk pages, and more, were notified about the discussions and proposed moves where you may want to add your views to the ongoing discussion. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 05:28, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Rebuilding a Temple that Hasn't Been Built?

Throughout this article are references to "rebuilding" the third temple. To me, this doesn't make much sense, since you can't rebuild something that doesn't exist yet. Either the Temple is being rebuilt a third time, or you're building a Third Temple. I suggest a rework of the text to reflect this. (unless someone can site a theological reference where the third temple will be built, destroyed, and rebuilt - and this is why I'm mentioning it rather than making the change myself.) Scbritton (talk) 19:02, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

it is the rebuilding of the previous temples , its just a bit of a different design  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.8.151.45 (talk) 12:08, 24 March 2019 (UTC) 

Sacrifices at Bar Kochba era Third Temple

I once attended a lecture that cited the claims of some historians, based on textual and numismatic evidence, that Bar Kochba completed a Temple and started sacrifices. I will add material when I can find suitable references. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ricardianman (talk • contribs) 20:54, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

RfC:Proper Name for this Article

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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NOTE: The following involves three related articles, please comment on all you see fit:

1. Talk:Solomon's Temple/Archive 2#RfC:Proper Name for this Article
2. Talk:Second Temple of Jerusalem#RfC:Proper Name for this Article
3. Talk:Third Temple#RfC:Proper Name for this Article

What is the most appropriate name for this article in the English wikipedia project? Further suggestions should be placed as subsections below, and arguments should be placed in the section corresponding to the desired name. -- Avi (talk) 17:40, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Third Temple

• Support, no need for disambiguation (no other articles yet with this title, and if there ever comes another, it can be created with some necessary disambiguation). The current one is clearly by far the primary topic for the search term "Third Temple". We don't clarify things in titles anywhere. We have Maus, not Maus (graphic novel). King can be many things, from placenames to popbands, but these are listed at the disambiguation page, while the primary topic gets the "simple" title. We have Jacob for the Biblical figure, even though there are many, many other famous Jacobs. Ur is about the city, not any of the other existing articles on Ur. Fram (talk) 07:08, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose Third Temple is a misleading name not ony because this is a matter of belief, not of ashlars and pilasters, but because Herod's Temple is often called the Third Temple," especially by those (a minority opinion) who believe that te Second Temple was razed by Herod and replaced.AMuseo (talk) 11:16, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
• Support - Most common name in the English language and no pressing need for disambiguation. -- Avi (talk) 17:57, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
• Support per name and lack of apparent need for disambiguation. John Carter (talk) 20:27, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
• Support per John Carter. Chesdovi (talk) 12:02, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
• Support per John Carter -- Jeff3000 (talk) 13:09, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
• Support. JFW | T@lk 12:36, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Third Temple (Judaism)

• As I stated in my argument] for the Second Temple (of Jerusalem)/Herod's Temple, calling this article by the name "Third Temple" is too open to mis-interpretation and confusion with other faiths. Thus, adding in the (Judaism) addition allow readers to understand that this is an idea specific toward the Jewish faith. I believe this is especially true because this article is a "notion and desire" and not a physical place as of yet. And, on the other hand, because it is a notion and not a place, it is something that is generally only spoken of by historians and those within the Jewish faith, so the name Ezekiel's Temple might not be understood in a clear sense. For these reasons, I believe "Third Temple (Judaism)" to be the most accurate title for the subject. Silverseren^C 18:32, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
• Support, per Silver seren here. IZAK (talk) 04:55, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
• Support per Silver Seren, unless there is any controversy (which I am not aware of) in labelling this as a Jewish concept. --FormerIP (talk) 22:35, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
• Support per Silver. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 15:51, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
• Support Third Temple is the standard name used when studying Jewish culture. The (Judaism) part is necessary because the expression by itself could refer to other temples that are third. Kuratowski's Ghost (talk) 22:38, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
• Support. This is the logical and consistent companion to First Temple (Judaism) and Second Temple (Judaism). While there doesn't seem to be any disagreement on calling them "Second Temple" and "Third Temple", the deciding factor is the naming of "First Temple". This must be called First Temple (Judaism) because other religions have their temples, too. Yoninah (talk) 21:49, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
• Support per Silverseren. --Shuki (talk) 23:05, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Ezekiel's Temple

Future Temple

• Support, with or without some addition, such as Future Temple of Jerusalem, Future Temple (Judaism), Future Third Temple, or Future Jewish Temple. This would remove any ambiguation about Herod's Temple being the 3rd. Nahum (talk) 13:51, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

"Belief in a Third Temple"

• Third Temple is a misleading name not ony because this is a matter of belief, not of ashlars and pilasters, but because Herod's Temple is often called the Third Temple," especially by those (a minority opinion) who believe that te Second Temple was razed by Herod and replaced. Therefore, this article about a theological construct should be explicit in the title and make clear that this is an idea, not a building.AMuseo (talk) 11:17, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
  • Oppose because whether it is a "belief" or not, it is a notion in classical Judaism supported by parts of the Bible (Ezekiel). Likewise, "Heaven" and "Hell" are beliefs (no one has come back to report on their exactness) and articles about them are not titled Belief in heaven and hell or some such. IZAK (talk) 17:14, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Time for closure?

The RfC's have run for over a month, I think it's time we consider the conclusions. -- Avi (talk) 02:17, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

 Done Weaponbb7 (talk) 02:37, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Ezekiel and the Temple

"The Third Temple, also known as Ezekiel's Temple..." I think you'll find that Ezekiel's temple was the 2nd, the one completed in 515. PiCo (talk) 07:30, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

although the second temple did implement certain designs described by Ezekiel, the temple described by Ezekiel has not yet been built--Marecheth Ho'eElohuth (talk) 17:59, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

"The initial text discussing the Third Temple is written in the Book of Ezekiel chapter 40, where, on the day of Yom Kippur of the Hebrew calendar 3372, Ezekiel prophesies the third temple architecture as well as envisioning the permanent entrance of the God of Israel through the eastern gate of the third temple wall." This must be wrong. 3372 in Hebrew calendar is 388 BCE, and Babylonian captivity, where Ezekiel wrote his book was 597-538 BCE. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.73.25.9 (talk) 19:30, 9 June 2014 (UTC) btw orthodox judaism believes the second temple, even though it incorporated some of the things from Ezekiel , the temple he mention is one and the same with the third temple to be built with the coming of messiah — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.8.151.45 (talk) 12:05, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

Rabbi Shlomo Goren section

The third paragraph deals with a "widely repeated story" of Rabbi Schlomo Goren's desire to see destruction of Muslim sights on the Temple Mount. All of the sources in the paragraph are dubious. The statements made are all hear-say. I am not saying anything is NPOV, it is just sloppy writting and unencyclopedic.

The last two paragraphs are tacked-on advertisements for a book and movie.

I propose throwing out the third and last two paragraphs, and either an overhaul or movement of the good information to another section. The very next section is "current rebuilding efforts." This would be a good place for the useful information contained in the Rabbi Shlomo Goren section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.95.171.19 (talk) 08:41, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

After no responses I went ahead and removed the third and final two sections. I still say the rest of the section needs to be reworked, but I'm not gonna do it at the moment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.95.171.19 (talk) 22:22, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Christian opinions

I have to say, the layout of this section strikes me as bizarre--two divisions of Christianity that make up the overwhelming majority of believers (Orthodox plus Catholic) are listed second, and given as much discussion as one portion of Protestantism. The Orthodox and Catholic views are the earliest, and ought to be listed first, as the starting point. Everything else is listed in historical order. What's even more bizarre, though, is that Hal Lindsay, an author whose theology the great majority of Christians would consider false, if not heretical, gets a whole section, one that is nearly as long as the Catholic-Orthodox section! This should be re-balanced. InFairness (talk) 07:30, 18 April 2011 (UTC) Have added the views of two church fathers with references.Cpsoper (talk) 11:48, 26 April 2014 (UTC) Wikipedia is notoriously known for being anti-Catholic and anti-Christian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:CEB1:6500:5D4:C233:38C9:D02 (talk) 16:34, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Design detail

Would it be too lengthy to devote a bit of the article length to the specifics of architectural design described in chapters 40-47 of Ezekiel?--Marecheth Ho'eElohuth (talk) 18:10, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Herzl

Have inserted a short reference to Herzl and Alneuland. In retrospect it's better under conservative than orthodox Jewish opinion. Perhaps other editors will help clarify this.Cpsoper (talk) 18:36, 28 June 2014 (UTC) indefinitely agree , Herzl was definitely not an orthodox jew — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.8.151.45 (talk) 12:09, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

Proposed restructure

I'd like to discuss re-structuring this article, per the outline below. I think that it could be much tighter, and if required material can be spun out into other articles if required. - Aaron Brenneman (talk) 14:42, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

   CURRENT OUTLINE
   1 Prelude
   2 Orthodox Judaism
       2.1 General views
       2.2 Role in prayer
       2.3 Preservation of daily cycle
       2.4 Preservation of rules of tumah
       2.5 Attempts to re-establish a Jewish Presence on the Temple Mount
   3 Role in Conservative Judaism
   4 Role in Reform and Reconstructionist Judaism
   5 Ancient attempts at rebuilding
       5.1 Bar Kochba revolt
       5.2 Julian
   6 Medieval attempts at rebuilding
       6.1 Sassanid vassal state
       6.2 Muslim conquest of Syria
       6.3 During the Mongol raids into Palestine
   7 Modern rebuilding efforts
       7.1 Organizations
       7.2 Obstacles
       7.3 Status of Temple Mount
   8 Christian views
       8.1 Protestant
           8.1.1 Mainstream
           8.1.2 Dispensationalist
           8.1.3 Dispensational Evangelical
       8.2 Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox
       8.3 Hal Lindsey
       8.4 Latter Day Saints
   9 Muslim view
   10 Bahá'í view
   11 See also
   12 Further reading
   13 External links
   14 Notes

   PROPOSED OUTLINE
   1 Lede
   2 Orthodox Judaism
   3 Conservative Judaism
   4 Rebuilding attempts
       4.1 Ancient
       4.2 Medieval
       4.3 Modern 
   5 Other religious views
       5.1 Christian 
       5.2 Muslim
       5.3 Other
   6 References

Looks good to me. Would you still have the same subtitles as the current article? Also, what about having Orthodox, Conservative, and Reformed all under the same heading of "Views in Judaism," section 2? Joshuajohnson555 (talk) 04:30, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Furthermore, as of August 2011, the article looks like this:

== Introduction == {{Incomplete|date=August 2011}} The initial text discussing the third temple is written in the book of Ezekiel chapter 40, where, on the day of Yom Kippur of the hebrew year 3372, Ezekiel prophecizes the third temple architecture as well as envisioning the permanent entrance of the God of Israel through the Eastern gate of the third temple wall.

=== Architecture === == In Jewish prayer ==

The third temple is also portrayed as a religious notion and desire in Judaism rooted and expressed in many of Judaism's prayers for the return and rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem that had once stood as the First and Second Temples that were destroyed by the ancient Babylonians and the Romans.

Since the destruction of the Second Temple in AD 70, religious Jews have expressed their desire to see the building of a Third Temple on the Temple Mount. Prayer for this is a formal part of the Jewish tradition of thrice daily Amidah prayer. Though it remains un-built, the notion of and desire for a Third Temple is sacred in Judaism, particularly Orthodox Judaism, and anticipated as a soon to be built place of worship. The prophets in the Tanakh called for its construction, to be fulfilled prior to or in tandem with the Messianic era.

The scenario of a rebuilding of the Third Temple also plays a major role with-in some interpretations of Christian Eschatology.

Architectural plans for the third Temple exist most notably in Chapters 40–47 of Ezekiel (Ezekiel's vision pre-dates the Second Temple) and some scholars entertain the notion that the Temple Scroll describes the third temple design as well.

Since a number of Jewish scholars have stated that the deadline for the arrival of the Jewish Messiah is the Jewish Year 6000 (2240 CE), this would also seem to be a deadline for beginning the construction of the Third Temple.

My question: should not the content under "In Jewish Prayer" be that of "Introduction." And "architecture" could be deleted as there is nothing regarding that so far. Joshuajohnson555 (talk) 04:30, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

All that seems reasonable. If there are not any objections, I'll write down the three sections into the one. - Aaron Brenneman (talk) 12:16, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Of (close to) first issue of priority should be temple detail and architecture--Marecheth Ho'eElohuth (talk) 18:45, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Establishing a Jewish presence

An anonymous editor has removed reference to the first publicised example of a photo of Jewish prayer on the mount from a reliable source, and suggests this is nothing to do with a third temple. This has everything to do with establishing a Jewish presence on the Mount, and the explicitly declared aspiration of the participants, in the accompanying article is to look to build a third temple.Cpsoper (talk) 23:48, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Rewriting of the lead section

The wp:Lead section of this article needs to be written, as it does not seem to be a summary of the article. Editor2020 03:38, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Third Jewish Temple

I'm trying to find the start date for construction of the Third Jewish Temple

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Ezekiel's temple (#2)

I propose to remove the 'hard' link in the introduction between the Third Temple and Ezekiel's Temple as this hard link with Ezekiel's temple is not supported by the content of the article. Most of the projects and viewpoints in the detail of the article are not based on Ezekiel's temple. Clivemacd (talk) 16:31, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

References to 'Ezekiel's temple' removed from introduction; new article 'Ezekiel's temple' created and links added to this article. Clivemacd (talk) 08:06, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

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Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 December 2018

Please change the Introduction, rather the first 2 words (first sentence) of this article! Do it for mankind.

Be blessed 93 Meerschaumpijp (talk) 20:12, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. – Jonesey95 (talk) 20:18, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

Change 'The House, the Holy, the Third' to 'The House of the Sanctuary, the Third'

The literal English translation (The House, the Holy, the Third) given in the first sentence of the article for the Hebrew name for the third temple (Beit haMikdash haShlishi) does not seem to be accurate. 'The House, the Holy, the Third' seems to assume that haMikdash is an adjective meaning 'holy' (like the Hebrew word kadosh), whereas it is in fact a noun meaning 'holy place, sanctuary, temple' (see e.g. http://www.morfix.co.il/en/ or any ancient or modern Hebrew reference work). Grammatically speaking, haMikdash is in a construct relationship (smichut) with Beit, making a single phrase 'the house of the sanctuary' A more accurate literal translation would be 'The House of the Sanctuary, the Third'. Cianpower (talk) 13:22, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 13 October 2019

Please remove the words "soon-to-be built" as this is not the position of Judaism, which says only that the Third Temple will be rebuilt when the Messiah is imminent. Importantly the Temple will not be rebuilt by humans. There are a number of key factors which are part of this. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/267114 CelebrateIsrael (talk) 16:30, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

 Done — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 14:06, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

Add to Muslim Views: The Third Temple is Al-Aqsa

I would like for it to be added to the "Muslim Views" that we're already in the Third Temple period since the conquest of Umar ibn al-Khattab. Muslims believe that Masjid al-Aqsa itself is the Third Temple. To Muslims, the Jews no longer believe since they rejected the last two prophets, Jesus and Muhammad, and the Muslims carry the final message and religion of God, a continuation of the same religion of the previous prophets. Now the Jews come and wail at the wall and the Muslims come and celebrate.

I would also like to add that "temple denial" is a fringe opinion and in no way a mainstream Muslim opinion, neither is it remotely scholarly. It's just an emotional reaction to the current politics. Muslims always believed in the First and Second Temple Period and that the prophets who built them were upon the same, pure faith as them. DivineReality (talk) 20:29, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 May 2020

Summarize the "Christian views" section, as it contains excessive exegetical interpretations. You can keep the ideas in there, just make it less of a headache to read through. IDeagle94 (talk) 01:53, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Elizium23 (talk) 01:56, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 April 2021

The first sentence in the Latter-Day Saints section is wrong. They believe the 3rd temple must be built before the 2nd coming of Christ. The movement's founder, Joseph Smith, said, "Judah must return, Jerusalem must be rebuilt, and the temple, and water come out from under the temple, and the waters of the Dead Sea be healed. It will take some time to rebuild the walls of the city and the temple, &c.; and all this must be done before the Son of Man will make His appearance." (as recorded in Joseph Fielding Smith's book, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.286)

Please make the correction. Thank you. Richwilkinson (talk) 13:40, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

To editor Richwilkinson:  done, and thank you very much! P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 16:05, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

RE: the link to Temple Denial

The phrase that links to the article on Temple Denial is phrased thus: "...deny any association with the Mount to the former Jewish Temples which stood at the site." I suggest that better English grammar would be: "...deny any association of the Mount with the former Jewish Temples which stood at the site."Cdg1072 (talk) 19:39, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

Minor error intro

Intro - Para 1: "Beit haMikdash haShlishi, lit. 'The House, the Holy, the Third'" Translation error. Hebrew compounds words in a similar way as French does - "The ex of wy of zed" - which is equal to English "The zeddish wy-ex." It's like translating "Jus de Pommes/מיץ תפוחים" as "juice, apples" - which is just wrong; they just call it apple juice.

TL;DR the translation of it is literally "The Third Temple." Please fix it. Shibolet Nehrd (talk) 10:34, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

In all Semitic languages it translates to the Third Holy House. In Google translate it The House The Holy The Third. BeitAlMikdas (talk) 17:12, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

I don't see how google translate is the best source. It deals mainly with modern Hebrew, and even then it hardly knows how to conjugate verbs. On an unrelated note, I think the translation "The Third Holy House" is pretty good. I'd much rather to see that there instead. Shibolet Nehrd (talk) 03:28, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 August 2022

At the end of Dispensational Evangelical: [This section does not cite any sources] : Addition:

According to The End Times, The Book of Revelation by British author Paul Backholer, the Bible proclaims the Third Temple will be significantly damaged in a showdown with the Antichrist. [cite: https://byfaith.org/2022/07/24/a-third-temple-in-jerusalem-will-be-built/ ] Evangelicals disagree on the specific timeline and interpretations. Dr Michael P. Baston (talk) 09:39, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. SWinxy (talk) 23:54, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 September 2022

in ==Attempts at rebuilding==, in ===Julian===, in the image caption that reads "Subterranean fires defeat Julian's effort to rebuilt the temple, illustration by James Dabney, 1877" change 'rebuilt' to 'rebuild' Martibttbtt (talk) 10:24, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

 Done EnIRtpf09b^{chat with me} 11:24, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Third Temple on Temple Mount

Among religious Jews, the anticipation of an ultimate future project centred around building the Third Temple at the Temple Mount in the Old City of Jerusalem has been a running theme that, in Israel, is also espoused as an ideological motive.

Maybe this should read "Among some religious Jews". I'm a religious Jew and I don't have any desire to see this built on the Temple Mount. Also, "centered" is misspelled in this sentence (..."ultimate future project centred around"). 24.51.192.49 (talk) 15:03, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Dating nomenclature

The holiest structure in Christianity and Judaism is discussed and yet we see CE and bce versus the more accurate and more appropriate AD and BC. 2600:6C5E:4000:3F5C:C0:23E:641A:94B8 (talk) 10:24, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

link outside text

i've never seen this on any other article. wouldn't it make more sense to have the link to "status of jerusalem" attached to "both sides have asserted it as their capital city"? 2604:3D09:6A7F:82C0:F9E5:342E:D3FF:1100 (talk) 17:08, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Isn’t it technically a 4th temple?

Solomon built over a pre-existing temple sight as is recorded in scripture, so under a technicality the 3rd temple was already built and destroyed… can people do math? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:59C8:31B3:F500:6153:46DC:A185:460B (talk) 08:32, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

no. 38.43.19.215 (talk) 21:55, 11 August 2024 (UTC)