Talk:Yishai Schlissel

Age of Yishai Schlissel?

@Archwayh: According to the somewhat convulted text at Forward.com[1], Schlissel was 40 in the year 2005 (or maybe 2006, when he was convicted): "After stabbing three people at the parade a decade ago, Schlissel, then 40 years old, from Modiin Illit, was convicted of attempted murder and aggravated assault." If the birthday indeed is 10 december 1975, as these edits claim[2], this should be properly sourced. Thanks :-). --MatthiasGutfeldt (talk) 12:53, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Still no source for the claim that Schlissel was born on 10 december 1975. The only source we have that mentions his age at all claims he was 40 in 2005. I'll wait a bit longer and then change the age to a sourced version. --MatthiasGutfeldt (talk) 08:09, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

This source claims Schlissel was 40 at the time of the recent attacks: http://www.timesofisrael.com/pm-visits-pride-attack-victim-defends-right-to-live-in-peace/. 10th December is not backed by any reliable sources indeed.--Deuxentre (talk) 12:30, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Yep, I saw that you added this in the German Wikipedia, thanks a lot! I've contacted both Forward and Times of Israel about this discrepancy. Once they agree on an age and update their articles, we can work with that. --MatthiasGutfeldt (talk) 13:10, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

I asked someone who knows the family. It is 1975. Settleman (talk) 17:03, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

I don't doubt you, but personal knowledge is not a reliable, published source we can use. I find it amazing that the media can't even agree on this basic piece of information; different media reports provide different ages. Journalism just ain't what it's supposed to be. Do you have access to court proceedings from the 2005 incident? Those should be credible and quotable. --MatthiasGutfeldt (talk) 12:05, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Stabbing

So he stabbed them to death or just injured them? Did anyone die in these two attacks? It's not clear from the article, but he's not included in "murderers" category. --85.250.32.240 (talk) 17:51, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes, a teenage girl was murdered.Zigzig20s (talk) 14:13, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

West Bank

The text, as it currently stands, refers to the "West Bank, also known as the Judea and Samaria Area." Per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (West Bank), this should be simply "West Bank". I corrected this once, and it was immediately reverted, so I'm bringing it here. -- Irn (talk) 18:32, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

The so-called "West Bank" is a contentious term. I refer to it as Judea and Samaria. Most people from that area do too. I'm sure it's fine to have both.Zigzig20s (talk) 21:46, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Why do you think it's fine to have both? Wikipedia:Naming conventions (West Bank) is a guideline that was created after an ArbCom case on the issue. What you and people you know call it is not terribly relevant. As you can see, there has been a lot of discussion around this issue already, and it's been settled to use just "West Bank" in a situation like this. -- Irn (talk) 22:11, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

I just don't think calling it the "West Bank" (sic) makes sense, especially in this context. I highly doubt Schlissel or his family would ever use that phrase. So having both can't hurt.Zigzig20s (talk) 22:16, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

You're arguing against the guideline. This discussion has played out many times before, and that's why there's a guideline: so we don't have to keep repeating it. -- Irn (talk) 22:25, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

But there is a specific context here.Zigzig20s (talk) 22:35, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Why should we make an exception just because he lives there and you don't like calling it the West Bank? -- Irn (talk) 22:57, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

This is getting boring. We are using both. We are not censoring your "West Bank" catchphrase. But no zionist settler from Judea and Samaria would ever used the "West Bank" phrase, so it makes no sense to redact it from this article IMO.Zigzig20s (talk) 23:20, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

That's not how consensus works. Just because you're bored doesn't mean you can determine the outcome of a content dispute. Hopefully WP:DRN can help. -- Irn (talk) 00:07, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Irn. The only place in the article where the name Judea and Samaria could possibly be mentioned is if the (criticised) handling by Judea and Samaria Area Police was discussed, and it is not. there is exactly zero justification for ignoring a guideline that was set up to resolve a notoriously contentious issue. 69.77.183.86 (talk) 08:14, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

I offered a justification, so there is not 'zero' justification, there is one. I am suspicious of 'special contributions' on contentious issues...Zigzig20s (talk) 08:34, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Let's wait until consensus has been reached there. Obviously, if everyone disagrees with me there, I will let it go, though the article will look extremely confusing.Zigzig20s (talk) 08:36, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

I think the naming convention is clear and this is how we have dealt with it many times for a long time here on Wikipedia. Because of this, those who want it to be included should make a case, and not keep it included until an unnecessary DRN is done. So until then, we follow the naming convention. --IRISZOOM (talk) 16:13, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

FYI, I added "Judea and Samaria Police District" because that's what it's called in the Haaretz article. I don't think Wikipedia should be renaming their own police.Zigzig20s (talk) 14:10, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Such usage is okay, just like it is okay to mention for example Judea and Samaria Area where it is relevant. --IRISZOOM (talk) 18:39, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

His hometown of Modi'in Illit: settlement or city?

An IP address has suggested it is a city, not a settlement. I've reverted their edit because they also removed a good reference from Haaretz. The Wikipedia page about that place calls it, "a Haredi Israeli settlement and city in the West Bank, situated midway between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv." It looks like a city to me on the pictures--not a mere settlement. I used both when I created this article to stay on the safe side. Shall it be trimmed to "a city in the West Bank"?Zigzig20s (talk) 13:30, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

In this topic, the term "settlement" refers to the places Israel is building in the Israeli-occupied territories. As the article Israeli settlement says: "Israeli settlements are Israeli civilian communities built on lands occupied by Israel since the 1967 Six-Day War". The following from there answers your other question: "Settlements range in character from farming communities and frontier villages to urban suburbs and neighborhoods". So no, it should still say a "settlement". --IRISZOOM (talk) 18:39, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Background

Is anyone able to find any references about his background? Education, job, relatives? So far the media coverage is very superficial.Zigzig20s (talk) 13:37, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Notability (people)

According to WP:PERP, A person who is known only in connection with a criminal event should not be the subject of a separate Wikipedia article if there is an existing article that could incorporate the available encyclopedic material relating to that person. Hence this article should be a redirect page to 2015 Jerusalem gay pride parade. Emanquresu (talk) 11:45, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

I disagree. He stabbed members of the LGBTQIA community twice, in 2005 and 2015. He is definitely notable as a criminal in his own right.Zigzig20s (talk) 11:50, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

He is a criminal known only in connection with a criminal event. Can you find any sources about him, that have nothing to do with the criminal event? Emanquresu (talk) 12:06, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Not one, but two. Yes, we are trying to find out more about his background (see the section above), hence the 'under construction' tag. It is too early for a merge, if it ever happens.Zigzig20s (talk) 12:09, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. Not every criminal act is condemned by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Jerusalem's top rabbi. And not every criminal receives international press (e.g. [3], [4],[5] among many others). I'd say that makes Schlissel notable. --MatthiasGutfeldt (talk) 13:21, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

I disagree. The CRIME is notable, not the CRIMINAL. I don't remember Netanyahu say the name of the criminal EVEN ONCE. Do you!? Even in the international press - not all articles mention the name of criminal (e.g. [6], link you yourself provided). Emanquresu (talk) 15:51, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Two Wikipedians believe this criminal is notable, without the need to shout it out in capital letters. It looks like you only created your account to comment on this page, which does not help your case, as another editor was already blocked for disruptive behaviour here. In any case, the article on the 2015 parade was created days after this one, and it is very messy and likely to be merged into an article on all Jerusalem pride parades. This article, on the other hand, has a good layout and it is replete with in-line referenced content. More importantly, this page encompasses more than the 2015 stabbings--also the 2005 stabbings, his motivations, some info about his background, etc.Zigzig20s (talk) 18:14, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

bhol.co.il as a reference

Can someone please confirm that this is a newspaper, not a blog, and thus a reliable source? (And if it's a newspaper, it should probably have its own Wikipedia article...) The article does provide interesting, relevant info about his background.Zigzig20s (talk) 05:55, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

I know it is extremely prominent for the Haredi community and for an article about a community member it is probably the best source. It is a look from the inside. Settleman (talk) 07:49, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

The article (from the instant translation I got from my browser) says his parents are children of Holocaust survivors... Do we know more about his grandparents? Have any of them written any memoirs? It seems strange that he does not seem to know anything about the persecution of homosexuals in Nazi Germany and the Holocaust.Zigzig20s (talk) 07:56, 12 August 2015 (UTC)