Talk:Yishuv

Untitled

Once again, a depressing example of the usual biases showing up. Deleted a bunch of anti-Israeli blather and a little bit of pro-Israeli blather that was irrelevant to this article.--adamatari 10:12, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

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Language

Out of curiousity, what language did the 'old yishuv' speak? I assume they used Arab for daily communication and hebrew for prayer.

There were different languages. The Ashkenazi Jews spoke Yiddish and the Sephardi Jews spoke Ladino. It was similar to Spanish the same way Yiddish was similar to German.

3/28/2009: ColumbusDude: It would be nice if the folks who put in the Hebrew words ("yishuv" for this article), would always put in the niqqud as an aid to the pronunciation. Even nicer are those articles that have the little pronunciation icons so you can hear the word in native Hebrew. Putting in the Hebrew (Yiddish, Aramaic, etc) word is one of the things that makes Wikipedia such an amazing resource. The more info, the better. Thanks (and thanks to all the folks who've created all these wonderful content-rich articles).

Language

In the Old Yisuv, Ashkenazi Jews did tend to speak Yiddish as a first language. Sefardim though did not in the main speak Ladino. Most Sefardim in the Old Yishuv, spoke Hebrew as a main language and somtimes Arabic. I have also changed the word "Hebrews" to "Jews" in the translation of the meaning of Yishuv. Yehudi means Jew not Hebrew.

Indeed the word Jew is derived from Yehudi, so is Yiddish btw. --105.0.4.127 (talk) 16:48, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

problematic definition

many if not all of the old yishuv were zionists in the sense that they wanted to come to Israel, perhaps not to establish the state at that time, but even in that sense there were initiatives to that cause for example in Tiberias. Any person who walks all the way to Zion from somewhere in the world is a zionist regardless of the political aspiration at the time. Therefore, one can't call most of these people as anti-zionists. On the contrary. Amoruso 19:35, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

While I have agreed with you on similar issues in the past, it seems here that the definition we are working with is of a more political nature, and there were certainly elements that opposed the modern occurrence for whatever reasons. Cheers, Tewfik^Talk 04:33, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

see with your approval the re-phrasing, similar to hebrew wiki. They were pre-zionist. I don't know the % of anti/non, and heb wiki doesn't mention it or discuss it. I think this is more accurate. Amoruso 06:54, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Modern Yishuv

I'm wondering if it should be included in the article that nowadays the term yishuv refers to the current settlements in Judea and Samaria. Leppi 12:23, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I haven't ever heard Yishuv used in English to describe Israeli settlements, only for the pre-1948 states - the only Hebrew term I've heard used for them is hitnakhlut (התנחלות). Number 57 10:27, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Incorrect information in section on "British Mandate"

During the British Mandate World War I ended along with the Ottoman Empire. Britain gained control of Palestine through the Sykes-Picot Agreement. There was hope that British control would allow the creation of a Jewish national homeland as promised in the Balfour Declaration. The British Mandate was formalized in 1922 based on the Balfour Declaration. The British were supposed to help the Jews build a national home and promote the creation of self governing institutions. The mandate provided an agency in which the Jews could represent Jewish interests and promote Jewish immigration. This Agency was called The Jewish Agency for Palestine which was only created ten years later serving as the de-facto government of the Yishuv. Along with a Jewish agency there was to be a general self governing institution created in Palestine including Jews and Arabs. The yishuv feared such an institution due to the Arab majority but none was created in the end due to the Arabs refusal to cooperate with the Jews or British. The optimism that existed in the beginning of the British mandate soon diminished due to continued hardships in the Yishuv. Most of the European funds that supported the Jewish settlements before World War I ended. The Arabs instigated Riots against the Jews due to their opposition to the Balfour Declaration and the Mandate. The British limited immigration through yearly quotas, only those who received "certificates" could make Aliyah.

In Regards to the above section of the article:

1. Britain gained control of Palestine through the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine. The Sykes-Picot agreement established "spheres of influence" for France And Great Britain in the Middle East and not the right to govern.

2. The Balfour Declaration stated (I quote from the Declaration)"His Majesty's government will view with favor the creation of a national home for the Jewish People..." It does not establish the right of Britain to allow or disallow such a home.

3. Again from the Balfour Declaration "and will use their best efforts to facilitate the achievement of this object...), Basically the British promised to try really hard to help but didn't promise an outcome or define how much they would help create a Jewish state.

4. The Jewish Agency wasn't part of the Mandate for Palestine or created by the British government. It was created by the first Zionist Congress in Basle under the leadership of Theodor Herzl and came from his thesis Der Judenstaat which outlined the method by which a Zionist State should be achieved. There is a whole chapter in this book on The Jewish Agency and predates the Mandate for Palestine by a good 40 years.

5. Self government as a one state solution wasn't just opposed by Arabs the Jews also refused because they would be a minority and have no power in government. The Arab's weren't afraid of anything they just didn't want to give up their homes to a state run by a minority population.

6. Support for Jews in Palestine from Europe was replaced by support from Jews in America,a no real loss.

7. The 1929 Arab Riots had nothing to do with the Balfour Declaration or the Mandate, these riots were in Response to a small retaining wall being constructed at the old West Wall of the Temple in Jerusalem. The Arabs thought the Jews had reclaimed the Temple and would destroy Muslim Holy sights that were built where the ruins of the Temple once were.

8. Enforcement of Aliyah or immigration restrictions by the British was minimal. Illegal immigration through various Zionist groups was not only possible but easy to achieve.

Overall this is shoddy work with no references and many misquotations and false interpretations. I recommend to anyone reading this article to look up the various source documents to see what is and isn't correct. Some of these documents include The Balfour Declaration of 1917, The Arab Riots of 1929, The Mandate for Palestine, The Sykes-Picot Agreement, Der Judenstaat (or Theodor Herzl), The Basle Program, The White Paper of 1939, The Peel Report, The Hussein-McMahon Correspondence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.225.195.168 (talk) 23:36, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

This article is really badly constructed, inccurate and biased.Aronlip (talk) 04:51, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

N:POV

The article states: "The increasing numbers of Jewish immigration and land purchases along with the British Mandate angered the Arabs, bringing them to radicalism." The world radicalism is clearly biased in my opinion. Fighting against an occupying force is hardly considered radical; people don't customarily call the Founding Fathers radicals. Furthermore, the wording implies all Arabs were "radical," when some collaborated with the British and, of course, many did not revolt or fight the British. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.241.176.136 (talk) 21:37, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

The Baltimore declaration

Despite the reports of Nazi atrocities growing and the desperation of Jews needing a safe haven the British kept the doors of Palestine closed to Jewish Immigration. The Zionist leaders met in a hotel in Baltimore and concluded that due to the British behaviour, the British were an enemy to be fought.

This section contains no references or links to other Wikipedia articles. There is a Wikipedia article called the Baltimore Declaration, on a different subject. A Google search under Baltimore Declaration Jews gave a website The Prisma - [1]. It contained a reference to the Baltimore declaration of 1942 but did not refer to the point made in the article. I found a statement made in 2010 - National Jewish Scholars Project: Institute for Christian and Jewish Studies: Baltimore, Maryland: The following statement appeared as a full page advertisement in The New York Times, Sunday, September 10, 2000, page 23, New England edition. : DABRU EMET: A Jewish Statement on Christians and Christianity - [2]. It was, of course not relevant. It is possible that I could find a RS if I continued my search to the bitter end. It is however the duty of a person who wants tha section to remain to find an appropriate reference.

Unless, a proper reference is added within one week, I intend to delete the whole section. Trahelliven (talk) 03:04, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

It is more than likely referring to the Biltmore Conference. 71.204.165.25 (talk) 04:06, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Bias

The British were caught by surprise and were unable to prevent the thousands of Arabs and hundreds of Jews that were killed in the revolt. The Haganah protected the Yishuv’s settlements while the Irgun and Etzel, more radical groups, attacked Arab settlements.

The only place in the article that describes more than a handful of deaths due to arab/jewish antagonism completely blows past the fact of a ten to one ratio of arabs being killed compared to jews. Then late in the article a listing of the evacuations of jews from come cities due to arab threats lists from a few to a few hundred without mentioning the tens of thousands of arabs killed or forced to flee from most of present day Israel during the same time, only mentioning that some groups attacked arab settlements. Why are centuries old arab cities and villages called settlements while Jewish areas are called cities and towns? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.83.198.80 (talk) 02:42, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

Totally agree with your entire comment. 2A00:23C5:DA87:E801:946B:1F14:16CD:95AF (talk) 02:53, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Yishuv Flag

Did the Yishuv have a flag? If it did how did it look like?

01:44, 10 June 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Iwant2write (talk • contribs)

Yeah, it was a precursor of Israeli flag. The Yishuv flag was not an official one.GreyShark (dibra) 15:05, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

Thanks! Sorry for the late response BTW.Iwant2write (talk) 15:21, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

Discussion relevant to this topic

It is proposed to rename Jewish insurgency in Palestine → Jewish insurgency in Mandatory Palestine.

Please discuss it on Jewish insurgency in Palestine talk page.GreyShark (dibra) 15:05, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

Relevant RFM proposal

The article One Million Plan was proposed to be merged into Aliyah Bet, please discuss it at talk:Aliyah Bet#Merger.GreyShark (dibra) 16:22, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

Merge from Palestinian Jews

The article on Palestinian Jews is describing primarily the Old and New Yishuv members of the Jewish community which is strikingly overlapping Yishiv article. As a result, propose to merge: Palestinian Jews->Yishuv
Opinions are welcome.GreyShark (dibra) 13:00, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

• Support I support this proposal, it makes sense and gets rid of a redundant article. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 14:12, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
• Comment - three previous discussions had been begun concerning this merge - by user:205.68.95.65 in 2008, user:TFighterPilot and user:Raisescale in 2010 and finally user:Halon8 in 2012, but with no sufficient attention.GreyShark (dibra) 16:09, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose - we might merge some of the content, but the term itself is clearly notable and stands on its own right as an interesting and separate subject. Oncenawhile (talk) 11:30, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Hebrew Yishuv

The Yishuv was in fact the Hebrew Yishuv. One of the basic properties of this whole thing was that at least publicly its people spoke Hebrew and WERE Hebrews, but there's not one word about it here, at least somewhere in the beginning where it should be since it's a very basic thing about it. It was called the Hebrew Yishuv (Ha Yiššub ha ʕibri). Most of its people were of Jewish origin, but that wasn't the main thing if at all, technically. Yarenn Šagor (talk) 18:06, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

The person who reversed my edition. What do you mean "better term for modern Jewish immigrants, instead of ancient Hebrews"? I didn't mean ancient Hebrews, I meant Hebrews in the sense that was used throughout the Yishuv period for every person or thing Hebrew. Yarenn Šagor (talk) 01:42, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

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Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 July 2017

By 1947 the British had 100,000 troops in Palestine trying to maintain order and protect themselves. The British mandate was a major expense to the Exchequer, forcing them to present the Palestine problem to the United Nations on May 15, 1947. The United Nations proposed a partition of the British Mandate for Palestine into 2 states—Arab and Jewish (UN Resolution 181). The Jews accepted it, while the Arabs stated that they would do everything in their power to prevent it.

MY EDIT:

By 1947 the British had 100,000 troops in Palestine trying to maintain order and protect themselves. The British mandate was a major expense to the Exchequer, forcing them to present the Palestine problem to the United Nations on October 29, 1947. The United Nations proposed a partition of the British Mandate for Palestine into 2 states—Arab and Jewish (UN Resolution 181). The Jews accepted it, while the Arabs stated that they would do everything in their power to prevent it. 79.178.200.146 (talk) 09:02, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Note: Do you have a reliable source to support the change of date from "May 15, 1947" to "October 29, 1947". regards, DRAGON BOOSTER ★ 15:48, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Note: Marking as answered. Needs reliable sources, as Dragon Booster said. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 16:39, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 September 2017

The last sentence of the first paragraph in lead "... to denote the Pre-State Jewish residents in the Land of Israel" is unsourced. I found a very good one from an historian: Somebody could please add it to article? Thanks--DarkKing Rayleigh (talk) 03:13, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

References

Done jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 19:07, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 January 2018

The links to "main articles" (Old Yishuv, Ottoman Jews, and Pre-Zionist Aliyah) should be at the beginning of this section, right after the title, not at the bottom.--181.10.79.48 (talk) 05:52, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

 Done feminist (talk) 07:55, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

Images

This could be of interest: Israeli Archivists Fume Over Wikimedia Israel's Reposting of Historical Photos Trove Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:31, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Template use

Why is {{lang-he}} used instead of {{lang-he-n}} ? Isn't the Template:Script/Hebrew that should be used in the text? And I've seen it in many articles. BennTheResearcher (talk) 19:31, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Characterisation of Old Yishuv

"In the final centuries before modern Zionism, a large part of the Old Yishuv spent their time studying the Torah and lived off charity (halukka), donated by Jews in the Diaspora." - I believe that this is a correct description of the Ashkenazi population in Jerusalem & Hebron but not of the Sephardi/Mizrahi population in Jerusalem, Tiberias, Safed, Peki'in etc. I wonder if anyone has the sources to rise to the challenge of this edit. I would certainly be happy to research it one day. Monosig (talk) 10:31, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 April 2023

In section regarding Old Yishuv, last sentence reads: “In the final centuries before modern Zionism, a large part of the Old Yishuv spent their time studying the Torah and lived off charity (halukka), donated by Jews in the Diaspora.”

Only men would have been spending their time studying Torah! 2603:7080:3000:B63E:E9F3:D05D:73D0:D487 (talk) 19:38, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Lightoil (talk) 01:47, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

I'm guessing: "large part of the male Old Yishuv spent their time studying the Torah" Nakonana (talk) 20:51, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

What? No Nakba?!

There is no mention of the Nakba of 1948 in this article. 750,000 Arabs were killed, expelled or displaced at that time, but the writer omits the entire, fully documented event. This is an incredibly one-sided report and the continued, ongoing edit-protection of this page merely adds to potential accusations of bias towards this page's author(s) 2A00:23C5:DA87:E801:946B:1F14:16CD:95AF (talk) 02:49, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Try elsewhere, where it fits the topic. Not "an author" anywhere around here, you thoroughly misunderstand Wikipedia. Different topic here, but there are 100s or 1000s of articles discussing or offering details of the Nakba. Enough with the activism. Even the most gigantic elephants don't inhabit every room. Arminden (talk) 22:36, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Not all in one pot, see Peki'in

"There were smaller communities in Jaffa, Haifa, Peki'in, Acre, Nablus, Shfaram, and until 1779 in Gaza. In the final centuries before modern Zionism, a large part of the Old Yishuv spent their time studying the Torah and lived off charity (halukka), donated by Jews in the Diaspora."

This doesn't fit places listed there like Peki'in, so those who are not among the "Holy Cities", where local Arabised Jews lived off the land and claimed continuity or at least very deep historical roots. The "Torah Jews" image however only fits the groups who came later (C17 - early C20, I would say), primarily in order to study religion in the Holy Land. Very different concept. Arminden (talk) 22:43, 11 March 2024 (UTC)