User talk:First Light/Archive 4

Single Purpose Account

This is a reference to the Talk:Ping Fu page, where you mentioned WP:SPA. Thought I'd take it to the side (hope this is the right place.)

User:VanHarrisArt is an alternative account for me. I'm using it because I have been harassed (both on and off WP) by the people who are now attacking Ping Fu. So it falls under WP:SOCK#LEGIT. I notified the Audit Committee about this a couple of weeks ago, so all is above-board. VanHarrisArt (talk) 21:05, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

I was afraid of lumping you in with the others, but I was really referring to the other recent single-purpose accounts that have been trying to slant the article in a negative way. I wasn't referring to you. First Light (talk) 21:08, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

WHO ARE YOU

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.54.160.97 (talk) 23:02, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

I am a Wikipedia editor. And you? First Light (talk) 23:06, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Nomination of Bush Derangement Syndrome for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Bush Derangement Syndrome is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bush Derangement Syndrome (6th nomination) until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Yworo (talk) 18:07, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Frampton article

Hi FL. I received your note on my talk page and replied there. Thanks. Now that we have that distraction taken care of, I think it's very important to add context to the existing content (both the conviction section and the sentence about the conviction in the lead), per the available sources. Currently, it simply says he was arrested, convicted, and sentenced for drug trafficking. But there's absolutely no context to it; no summary to indicate the bigger picture of what really happened. As the content stands now, it simply appears as if he is a major drug trafficker who got busted and sent to prison. Period. Based on your prior edits, I would totally trust you to rework the content for fairness, neutrality, accuracy, and the important part that's missing: proper context about his role in the incident, the sentence, and where he's spending his time. Enjoy the rest of your weekend! --76.189.111.2 (talk) 04:36, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, and I agree. I hope to chip away at it in a day or two, unless you get to it first. First Light (talk) 13:18, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Great. Based on your prior edits and comments, I think you'll do an excellent job of improving the information. I really don't think it needs much more content added; the conviction section and the sentence in the lead just need clear context so readers will understand what happened. Thanks. --76.189.111.2 (talk) 14:07, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

ANI

You've been mentioned at ANI [[1]]. If you could comment it would be appreciated. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 08:53, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Frampton rewrite

Hi FL. :) I just spent a few hours rewriting the Frampton content, using the New York Times article as the key source. I worked very hard to present the information in a very fair and balanced way, and, as we discussed, presenting the important context that was previously missing. Hope this will be acceptable to all editors with pure intentions, like you. Again, thank you very much for your great monitoring of the article. In case my version disappears, here's a copy of it:

Cocaine conviction

In November 2011, Frampton met someone through an online dating website whom he believed to be Denise Milani, a beautiful Czech bikini model. They chatted online almost every day, spoke very romantically to each other, and discussed having a future together. Although she demurred each time Frampton asked to speak with her on the telephone, the woman eventually agreed to meet Frampton in La Paz, Bolivia, in January 2012.

However, when he arrived in La Paz he was told that the woman had been called away to Brussels, Belgium, for a modeling job. She said she would send him an airline ticket to Brussels and asked him to bring her a bag that she had left in Bolivia. A friend of Frampton's pleaded with him not to go, warning him that there likely was cocaine in the bag; he told Frampton that he was in "big trouble" and that he could be killed, but Frampton disregarded the warning. Several day later, a man gave Frampton the bag, which was empty when he opened it.

Frampton flew to Buenos Aires, Argentina, but after waiting 40 hours at Ezeiza International Airport for the airline ticket to Brussels to arrive, he had arranged for a flight back home to Raleigh. He checked both his bag and the one for the woman, stating that he believed he would one day meet her. A few hours later, he was arrested by police at the airport who found two kilograms of cocaine in the bag for the woman.

The strategy of Frampton's defense team was to portray him as a brilliant man who was out of touch with day-to-day life. However, three psychological evaluations, including one on behalf of the court, found that Frampton was not mentally ill, although included opinions that he was narcissistic and gullible. At the trial, which began on 12 November 2012, prosecutors cited 30 text messages sent by Frampton, which they claimed proved he knew he was transporting cocaine. The defense countered that the messsages were sent as jokes which were prompted by his friend's earlier warnings, which Frampton did not take seriously.

Frampton was found guilty and on 19 November 2012, was sentenced to 56 months for drug smuggling. With credit for the time he already spent in custody, Frampton is expected to be released in May 2014; under Argentina law, a foreigner is required to serve half the sentence and then can be expelled form the country, thus discharging the remainder of the sentence. He is serving the remainder of his sentence under house arrest at a friend's home in Buenos Aires.

It was determined that the real Denise Milani had no connection to Frampton and was not accused of having any role in the drug smuggling. Milano and Frampton expressed their sympathy for each other.

76.189.111.2 (talk) 16:26, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Wow, I just saw this. ;) 76.189.111.2 (talk) 16:47, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that's a big help. I had already started a new checkuser page for Tramadul, when the blocks started happening from that other checkuser request — I just hadn't hit the submit button yet. Regarding your rewrite: I'm all for a balanced and fuller explanation of that arrest, because the whole thing is so unusual and needs an explanation. My only concern is that it's now overly long, and dominates the article in terms of content. I'm happy to let it fly as is, though, as I don't have the time to really go over it in detail to see how it could be condensed. And it does give the full (and very complex) story in a clear way, which it probably needs because of the strangeness and complexity — I know that must have taken some serious writing and time. Thanks for your efforts. First Light (talk) 17:01, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your feedback. I really appreciate it. Yes, it took me a few hours to write. I'm worn out. Haha. As I was reading all the details of the case, I quickly realized that it was extremely complex and was going require quite a bit of information to put it all into context so it would be fair and readers would fully understand what happened. My intentions going in of course were to keep it as brief as possible. But, again, there's so much to the story that I felt the only way to truly be fair about it, in line with BLP and due weight, was to summarize all the important parts, in chronological order. Please keep in mind that I actually left out a lot of content. Again, thanks for your great help and support in cleaning up the article. Btw, I saw you removed the word "beautiful" from "beautiful bikinki model". Haha. Thanks. That was pretty dumb on my part. How many ugly bikini models has anyone ever seen? :P I guess I was trying to make clear, per the source, that he was infatuated with (what he thought was) this gorgeous model. In any case, I'm glad you removed it. Thanks. 76.189.111.2 (talk) 17:28, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Lifting the Gibraltar DYK restrictions

A couple of months ago, you opposed a proposal to lift the restrictions on Gibraltar-related DYKs, which were imposed in September 2012. Could you possibly clarify (1) under what conditions you would support a lifting of the restrictions, and (2) when you think it would be appropriate to lift the restrictions? Prioryman (talk) 20:16, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Thoughts

Are this sources are reliable in this article? Pyracantha atalantioides--Mishae (talk) 05:13, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Those are a good example of a range of sources and reliability. Anything from Kew Botanic Gardens and Missouri Botanical Garden are very reliable by Wikipedia standards. It doesn't mean they are always accurate, but most of the time yes. I've seen the rare mistake in the Kew Plant List, namely misspelling of a couple species. They were very responsive when I emailed them, and will be corrected, or already have been. Calflora has been accurate in my experience, and probably meets the WP:RS standard of having a "a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." The third source, which is efloras.org, is a very good source that I've used many times for plant descriptions. Here is a link to their citing page, which shows that it is compiled by Harvard University, with the web version published by Missouri Botanical Garden. You can fix the citation information in the P. atalantioides article to reflect that.

The fourth source: nursery websites don't meet WP:RS standards, because they are self-published commercial sites and don't necessarily have a reputation for accuracy. I don't use them because it's typically possible to find a reliable source for the same information. The eflora article has the same description information if you wade through that technical botanical description.

When looking for reliable sources, I first do a general Google search, followed by a search limited to university websites by adding "site:.edu" in the Google search field. Then I search Google books. Not all books are reliable, so I try to stick with those from more trustworthy publisers, known authors, etc. Books published by universities are the best. Finally, I've found the editors at WikiProject Plants to be extremely helpful. I'm just an amateur, while some of the editors there are professionals in the plant field. I see from your talk page that you've been corrected by one of them. I've also been humbled a few times, and have learned to trust them. Their advice on the sources in the P. atalantioides article may be just slightly different than mine. I've learned from them to try always to use the most reliable sources possible. First Light (talk) 17:04, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

P.S. Here are a couple of other good sources for that article: Royal Horticultural Society web page; and a Google book preview from a good publisher. First Light (talk) 17:12, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

O.K. I will take a note on it, in the meantime can you see this one?: Cotoneaster adpressus--Mishae (talk) 18:09, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

That looks absolutely great - those are among the highest quality references possible. Thanks, First Light (talk) 00:04, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks

Hello First Light. Here are some "lilac" Penstemon flowers for you to enjoy, to thank you for the humorous quip which you made at Talk:Syringa yesterday. I actually wasn't very pleased with what I'd written myself and felt a certain amount of trepidation when I logged on last night, half expecting to find I'd stirred up unpleasantness of some sort, but instead I found your comment and it made me smile - so thankyou for that! PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 15:17, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the note, the lilac (haha) flowers, and your own humor in all of this. I don't know why, but I do find a great deal of humor in these plant article title name discussions. Maybe it's a way of saving my sanity so I keep editing .... First Light (talk) 01:58, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

"Heliconia episcopalis" or "Calathea cylindrica"

Hello, I noticed that you are interested in editing plant and flower articles. I recently started writing in this area due to my new geographical location and a resulting growing interest. I was wondering if you are familiar with a flower that looks like this. The file used to be improperly named "Heliconia episcopalis", which I know was incorrect. I suggested here that the plant in the picture is actually a "Calathea cylindrica" but I can't be 100% certain. The uploader of the picture changed it but I thought I would ask you if you're familiar with that flower since you seem experienced in writing about plants. (I still need to take a picture of a H. episcopalis to replace the old photo.) What do you think?

Also, thanks for your recent edits to Cyrtostachys renda‎‎.

Thanks!- tucoxn\^talk 19:57, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

That plant is too far outside my geographic range, and my range of knowledge, so I put a note and the photo at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Plants‎. There are some very knowledgable and helpful plant editors there, some of whom are plant professionals. It's always a good place to ask questions. And great job with creating the Cyrtostachys renda‎‎ article and bringing it to DYK. First Light (talk) 20:35, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

p.s. I forgot to add that they are extremely patient with amateurs like us :-). First Light (talk) 20:48, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for June 16

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Acorus

Hiya, I recently joined Wikipedia to correct some stuff and then started to rewrite the Acorus calamus page. I just noticed some things, thought I should talk to someone about it, you've added stuff recently hence I'm here. 1. The entire section 'regulations' appears to have been plagiarised word for word. Plus the explanation about the cytotypes is redundant. Should I kill most of that section? 2. The stuff about uses among Native American cultures would refer to the diploid American version. Shouldn't all that be moved to that article? Most of it is also plagiarised and unreferenced anyway. 3. The entire Uses, Cultural symbolism and Chemistry sections are muddled, with traditional uses mixed with modern medical studies. Plus large amounts of text seem to have been copied from a rather questionable website. Should I redistribute the text and delete inaccuracies (for example the spurious stuff copied about Ancient Egypt)? Leo Breman (talk) 14:32, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia! 1. Any copyright violation can and should be removed immediately, preferably with a link in the edit summary that proves it. See WP:COPYVIO for more information. Feel free to be bold and remove anything that is redundant. Keep in mind that the lead of the article should review the main points in the body, unless it's a very short stub article, so there can be some redundancy in that case.

2. Generally, different varieties of a species are all discussed in the single species article, but can be broken into sections.

3. Yes, you should go ahead and rearrange the text as you see fit. Much of the chemistry and difference in ploidy is way beyond my amateur plant understanding, so I can't give you much advice there, except again, be bold and make the changes you see fit, giving good edit summaries so other editors can understand what you did. If you haven't visited yet, WikiProject Plants is an extraordinary bunch of cooperative, cheerful, helpful, and very smart plant editors. You can leave questions at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Plants and you'll be likely to get better answers than I can give you. And thanks for discussing the issue regarding the names. I'll add another comment there - but I'm not completely wedded to my opinion. First Light (talk) 02:05, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Re Cymbalaria muralis

I started a section on "Distribution" which you deleted. I hoped that others with further information would add to this. Why did you delete it please? Please leave a note on my talk page - or somewhere where I'll find it!Osborne 15:43, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

On the talk page you had noted the fact that your username and date/time had suddenly appeared at the top of the article. It appeared that you added it yourself, so I reverted the entire edit. You can try adding that back, and see if it works this time - but don't add the four tildes anywhere in your edit, otherwise you will add your name back to the top of the article. If you have information about the worldwide distribution of that plant, it would be especially helpful, as your previous edit gave the impression that it was distributed only in Ireland. First Light (talk) 17:16, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

29th June. Thank you for your comments. However what are "four tildes" (you used the term - see above) please? I have no world-wide info' on the distribution. However others might have. My information is only about the distribution in Ireland. I shall rewrite it and see.Osborne 15:14, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

I'll quote from the very first post on your own talk page, under the "Extra Tips" section: "You can sign your name using three tildes (~). If you use four, you can add a datestamp too. Five will get you the datestamp only." Somehow you must have typed in some tildes (that's the character on the upper left of your keyboard) when you made that edit at Cymbalaria muralis. First Light (talk) 17:29, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Plant selling names

Thank you for alerting me to this discussion. I made four attempts at contributing, all stymied by 'edit conflicts', but have at last succeeded in stating my case. Regards, Ptelea (talk) 08:38, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

DYK-Good Article Request for Comment

Hi, would you like to elaborate on your !vote? :) --Gilderien Chat|List of good deeds 00:50, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the reminder - I just added an explanation. First Light (talk) 01:19, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for updating my article

Hi, First Light. :) Thank you for your help editing in my article. I really appreciate your help. Have a great day. _IloveU4ever (talk) 05:17, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for contributing to our encyclopedia. Enjoy your time here! First Light (talk) 15:30, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Books and Bytes: The Wikipedia Library Newsletter

Books and Bytes

Volume 1, Issue 1, October 2013

by The Interior (talk · contribs), Ocaasi (talk · contribs)

Greetings Wikipedia Library members! Welcome to the inaugural edition of Books and Bytes, TWL’s monthly newsletter. We're sending you the first edition of this opt-in newsletter, because you signed up, or applied for a free research account: HighBeam, Credo, Questia, JSTOR, or Cochrane. To receive future updates of Books and Bytes, please add your name to the subscriber's list. There's lots of news this month for the Wikipedia Library, including new accounts, upcoming events, and new ways to get involved...

New positions: Sign up to be a Wikipedia Visiting Scholar, or a Volunteer Wikipedia Librarian

Wikipedia Loves Libraries: Off to a roaring start this fall in the United States: 29 events are planned or have been hosted.

New subscription donations: Cochrane round 2; HighBeam round 8; Questia round 4... Can we partner with NY Times and Lexis-Nexis??

New ideas: OCLC innovations in the works; VisualEditor Reference Dialog Workshop; a photo contest idea emerges

News from the library world: Wikipedian joins the National Archives full time; the Getty Museum releases 4,500 images; CERN goes CC-BY

Announcing WikiProject Open: WikiProject Open kicked off in October, with several brainstorming and co-working sessions

New ways to get involved: Visiting scholar requirements; subject guides; room for library expansion and exploration

Read the full newsletter

Thanks for reading! All future newsletters will be opt-in only. Have an item for the next issue? Leave a note for the editor on the Suggestions page. --The Interior 22:05, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

COI policy draft

Hi First Light... there have been some changes to the proposed COI policy since you !voted, some of which directly address concerns you raised. Would you mind having a look and reconsidering? Thanks! It is here. Jytdog (talk) 09:58, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

The Wikipedia Library Survey

As a subscriber to one of The Wikipedia Library's programs, we'd like to hear your thoughts about future donations and project activities in this brief survey. Thanks and cheers, Ocaasi ^{t | c} 16:01, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Your input on Wikipedia:Mass Surveillance initiative

The idea to revamp the main page for Feb 11 is a GREAT idea. We've set up a draft/brainstormy page and could really use your input in crafting a "very, very compelling set of DYKs" --HectorMoffet (talk) 07:18, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

If you have the time, would you lend your view over at Wikipedia:Surveillance awareness day. If you want to see a list of custom content that could be available, we have a Arbitrary mockup #2, that shows lots of proposed content on one page. Which content do you think is good, what content do you think shouldn't be used, etc...

Your feedback is most appreciated. --HectorMoffet (talk) 09:54, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

JSTOR Survey (and an update)

Hi! Just a quick update that while JSTOR and The Wikipedia Library discuss expanding the partnership, they've gone ahead and extended the pilot access again, until May 31st. Thanks, JSTOR!

It would be really helpful for growing the program if you would fill out this short survey about your usage and experience with JSTOR:

SURVEY

Cheers, Ocaasi via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 20:47, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Notification of automated file description generation

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RM notification

Since you have participated in at least one Requested Move or Move Review discussion, either as participant or closer, regarding the title of the article currently at Sarah Jane Brown, you are being notified that there is another discussion about that going on now, at Talk:Sarah Jane Brown#Requested move #10. We hope we can finally achieve consensus among all participating about which title best meets policy and guidelines, and is not too objectionable. --В²C ☎ 17:13, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!

Hi,
You appear to be eligible to vote in the current Arbitration Committee election. The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to enact binding solutions for disputes between editors, primarily related to serious behavioural issues that the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the ability to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate, you are welcome to review the candidates' statements and submit your choices on the voting page. For the Election committee, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 13:50, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment

Hello! Your submission of Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! —♦♦ AMBER^(ЯʘCK) 10:23, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

DYK for Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment

— Coffee // have a cup // beans // 00:02, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

User_k

Hey first light its good to see that you are doing good police job. You need better citations in Kali page. Can you please provide me some good articles and researches for the Kali page . I really want and really want to see the page in your way. And can you explain me about the iconography of Kali without copy pasting from some resources or sending some links. Please give me some light may be I have lesser. And if you cant then please don interfere others work. If you can't do any thing then please don't others stop doing something good. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.176.30.176 (talk) 05:53, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

Please stop edit warring and attempting to own the Kali article. We all want to improve it. The "better source needed" tags are one of the best ways to do that. They should not be removed until better sources are given. I'm trying to find reliable sources that include all of those varied attributes for Kali, but haven't found one yet. You are free to keep looking, and those tags are an ongoing invitation to other editors to do the same. Also, please read the links I gave you regarding Reliable Sources. Your behavior indicates that you have not read any of the Wikipedia policies I've given you. At this point, your behavior is disruptive. If it continues, you are likely to be be blocked from editing. First Light (talk) 10:00, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

I just replied to User:UserK over on my talk page. I mistook them for a brand new editor but I see now that they've been hitting up random admins like myself for help. They seem to have been ignoring advice to read policy and editing unhelpfully since at least this summer, is that right? Have they ever made any edits that were helpful? A Train^talk 16:32, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

They've made some occasional helpful edits, but most have been: without reliable sources; frequent deceptive use of citations to support something that wasn't in the citation; blatant and obvious copyright violation(s); removing tags without discussing or fixing the problem; ignoring advice on learning about reliable sources and other wikipedia policies; etc. All things considered, UserK has been a very disruptive editor who doesn't work well with others. Thanks for asking! You can also ask User_talk:Redtigerxyz, who is an extremely skilled and helpful editor with countless Good Articles in this area, and a frequent editor of the Kali article. First Light (talk) 09:16, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

Cultivated Mexican salvias

Hi, I know that you have been involved in creating and editing articles on cultivated salvias, so I'd like to seek your opinions. There are a lot of cultivars of Mexican salvias, some classifiable as Salvia microphylla, Salvia greggii, or their hybrid S. × jamensis, but others not clearly traceable to one or other of these, or derived from more complex hybridizations. Lists of cultivars are being added to the two species articles when reliable sources place them in the other species, or in the hybrid, or just in the genus. There's a recent list of cultivars that have gained the RHS AGM (see e.g. Dyson, William (September 2015), "RHS trial of Mexican Salvia", The Plantsman (New Series), 14 (3): 158–164), but where should they be added, as they have mixed, and in some cases uncertain, origins?

The answer might be to have a separate article on the cultivated Mexican salvias, and keep the species articles for the wild plants. Should there instead or in addition be an article at Salvia × jamensis?

Your thoughts would be appreciated. Peter coxhead (talk) 10:45, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

This is just my opinion, based on study of Salvias, and on some things you point out. Salvia × jamensis is probably deserving of an article, based on sources and usage. But due to so much uncertainty of the various hybrids and cultivars, there may have to be a catchall article such as "Salvia hybrids and cultivars." It may end up catching too many plants, because so many nurseries seem to have their own names for some of these crosses. Using only reliable sources would solve that issue, but reliable sources may be scarce for these things. A broader article title like that could have subsections for Mexican salvias, Mediterranean, etc. I agree with you that the species articles should be focused on the wild or pure species rather than the mongrels.

But, I don't know if all of this fits in with current best practices for plant articles. This may be worth discussion at WP:PLANTS. First Light (talk) 12:12, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

I would support an article on Salvia × jamensis if reliable sources cover it. On the question of where to place cultivars, is it not the case that cultivars are not usually listed in articles unless reliable sources cover them, and that therefore the unsourced ones should just be removed (and the reliable sources should dictate which article the cultivars are placed in)? PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 12:38, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

@PaleCloudedWhite: yes, you're right, but there are very reliable sources covering "Mexican salvias" = "semihardy semishrubby salvias", such as the one I gave above. If we split them by the botanical name in the source, we'd have e.g. AGM cultivars split between at least four articles (Salvia, Salvia microphylla, Salvia greggii and Salvia × jamensis) which doesn't reflect what sources do – they treat all these cultivars as a group – and wouldn't, I think, be helpful to readers. It's tricky, though. Peter coxhead (talk) 18:13, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

Not all sources always treat them as a group - it perhaps depends how the sources are approached. The RHS also lists cultivars separately - eg Salvia microphylla 'Cerro Potosi', Salvia x jamensis 'Nachtvlinder', Salvia greggii 'Desert Blaze'. I'm not necessarily against the idea of lumping all the cultivars together, though I question if it matters unduly if, for example, AGM cultivars are split between articles. Presumably the articles can be linked, either within the text or using 'see also'? On the other hand however, speaking as someone who breeds roses, I know that with most modern Rosa cultivars, it isn't possible to even roughly determine the proportion of their genes that are inherited from particular species, because they are so mixed up, so it would be interesting to know on what basis Salvia cultivars are ascribed to particular species derivations. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 19:37, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

If enough reliable sources cover the Mexican salvia mixed children as a group, I think a separate article is warranted. The experts are far from definitive about the precise parentage of many of these. So many crosses have emerged in home gardens, botanical gardens, in the garden of Salvia experts (Betsy Clebsch, etc.), that it's largely guesswork regarding the parents. Cultivars could also be in the related species article, if there were reliable sources confirming or guessing parentage. Just my non-expert, without access to most reliable sources, opinion. If someone were to send me the RHS article, I would appreciate it. First Light (talk) 09:58, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

Benevolent

Thanks for your edit [2]. I actually ctrl-f:d "benevolent" before I edited, but "benign" slipped me by. There are things about that Idol (and the lower "Dakshina Kali" image) that doesn´t make me think "benevolent", but that´s a personal opinion and context is everything. I also had a problem with the idol being benevolent, idols pretty much just stand there. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:44, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Well, I think that most people (especially in West) don't see Kali as benevolent, benign, and motherly — but those who worship her see her that way. She has received a lot of bad press in the west :-). The most well known Dakshinakali, at Dakshineswar Kali Temple, is seen by devotees as the Divine Mother herself, combining different aspects. I think perhaps the most accessible book about Kali is Kali: The Black Goddess of Dakshineswar, by Elizabeth U. Harding. She writes about the Dakshineswar Kali:

She is full of majesty. Her posture strangely combines the terror of destruction with the reassurance of motherly love. She is the Cosmic Power, the complete picture. Nothing is missing. All good (symbolized by her right side) and all bad (symbolized by her left side) is within her. She deals out death and terror while she offers fearlessness and boons to her devotees. A glorious harmony of opposites. She is all — energy and power.

The destruction is only against evil and delusion. Her children and devotees go to her for her love, benevolence, and protection. Dakshina itself is a form of giving, so she is one who gives to her devotees. Sri Ramakrishna's relationship with her is the most informative. You can read his words about Kali here ("Shyama-Kali has a somewhat tender aspect and is worshipped in the Hindu households. She is the Dispenser of boons and the Dispeller of fear."). And of course you see nothing but childlike love for the mother when visiting Dakshineswar temple.

"Idol" also confused things. It's not the best translation for the Indian term murti, which is seen not just as an image but as the goddess herself. Western use of "idol" has connotations that are far different from the way Indians use that term. I prefer to use "murti" rather than "idol" for that reason, even in English Wikipedia. First Light (talk) 14:17, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for taking the time to write this, very informative. Being a typical westerner, my first encounters with Kali was of course Temple of Doom and (I think) one of the Destroyer novels. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:04, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for helping me out with "Bhowanee," Bhavani, and Kali. I felt the veil of Maya lift from my eyes. Cheers! MusselParty (talk) 03:50, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Glad to be of help. First Light (talk) 09:31, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

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Hi First Light, please develop articles of different sub schools of Vedanta and their respective founders article Vishishtadvaita (Ramanuja), Dvaita Vedanta (Madhvacharya), Bhedabheda Dvaitadvaita (Nimbarka), Achintya Bheda Abheda (Chaitanya Mahaprabhu), Shuddhadvaita (Vallabha). Most of the articles are written poorly with ill-sourced since you are an expert in Hindu-related articles I request you to develop these articles (no hurry take your time), also if necessary please feel free to take help from other experienced editors. Cheers.--223.223.142.44 (talk) 04:21, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Kali

If you're around, you may want to take a look at that article again. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:48, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

Or it may sort itself out. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:58, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

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