User talk:Geo Swan/archive/2011-09

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Contents

Speedy deletion nomination of File:Trailer where CSR Tribunals were held 3.jpg[edit]

A tag has been placed on File:Trailer where CSR Tribunals were held 3.jpg requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section F2 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is an image page for a missing or corrupt image or an empty image description page for a Commons-hosted image.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, contest the deletion by clicking on the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion". Doing so will take you to the talk page where you will find a pre-formatted place for you to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit the the page's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 16:51, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of File:Trailer where CSR Tribunals were held 2.jpg[edit]

A tag has been placed on File:Trailer where CSR Tribunals were held 2.jpg requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section F2 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is an image page for a missing or corrupt image or an empty image description page for a Commons-hosted image.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, contest the deletion by clicking on the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion". Doing so will take you to the talk page where you will find a pre-formatted place for you to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit the the page's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 16:51, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of File:Trailer where CSR Tribunals were held 1.jpg[edit]

A tag has been placed on File:Trailer where CSR Tribunals were held 1.jpg requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section F2 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is an image page for a missing or corrupt image or an empty image description page for a Commons-hosted image.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, contest the deletion by clicking on the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion". Doing so will take you to the talk page where you will find a pre-formatted place for you to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit the the page's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 16:51, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of File:Trailer where CSR Tribunals were held.jpg[edit]

A tag has been placed on File:Trailer where CSR Tribunals were held.jpg requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section F2 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is an image page for a missing or corrupt image or an empty image description page for a Commons-hosted image.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, contest the deletion by clicking on the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion". Doing so will take you to the talk page where you will find a pre-formatted place for you to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit the the page's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 16:52, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

File copyright problem with File:Image said to be Predator drone aircraft at Shamsi Airbase in Pakistan -- no longer available on Google Earth..jpg[edit]

Thank you for uploading File:Image said to be Predator drone aircraft at Shamsi Airbase in Pakistan -- no longer available on Google Earth..jpg. However, it currently is missing information on its copyright and licensing status. Wikipedia takes copyright very seriously. It may be deleted soon, unless we can verify that it has an acceptable license status and a verifiable source. Please add this information by editing the image description page. You may refer to the image use policy to learn what files you can or cannot upload on Wikipedia. The page on copyright tags may help you to find the correct tag to use for your file. If the file is already gone, you can still make a request for undeletion and ask for a chance to fix the problem.

Please also check any other files you may have uploaded to make sure they are correctly tagged. Here is a list of your uploads.

If you have any questions, please feel free to ask them at the media copyright questions page. Thanks again for your cooperation. Acather96 (talk) 20:42, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Nomination of September 11, 2002 for deletion[edit]

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article September 11, 2002 is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/September 11, 2002 until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on good quality evidence, and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ydntop (talkcontribs) 01:52, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Image tagging for File:Mohammed Hagi Fiz and Jan Mohammed in 2002-12.jpg[edit]

Thanks for uploading File:Mohammed Hagi Fiz and Jan Mohammed in 2002-12.jpg. You don't seem to have said where the image came from or who created it. We require this information to verify that the image is legally usable on Wikipedia, and because most image licenses require giving credit to the image's creator.

To add this information, click on this link, then click the "Edit" tab at the top of the page and add the information to the image's description. If you need help, post your question on Wikipedia:Media copyright questions.

For more information on using images, see the following pages:

Thank you for your cooperation. --ImageTaggingBot (talk) 04:08, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of File:Taliban bounty flyer.jpg[edit]

A tag has been placed on File:Taliban bounty flyer.jpg requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section F2 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is an image page for a missing or corrupt image or an empty image description page for a Commons-hosted image.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, contest the deletion by clicking on the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion". Doing so will take you to the talk page where you will find a pre-formatted place for you to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit the the page's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 10:51, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of File:Taliban bounty 3.jpg[edit]

A tag has been placed on File:Taliban bounty 3.jpg requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section F2 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is an image page for a missing or corrupt image or an empty image description page for a Commons-hosted image.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, contest the deletion by clicking on the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion". Doing so will take you to the talk page where you will find a pre-formatted place for you to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit the the page's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 10:51, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Wikiversity[edit]

I've seen that you've come into conflict with the Wikipedia community several times about some of your articles. Have you considered moving the verifiable, but arguably non-notable, content to a research project on Wikiversity ? You'll get credit there for what's treated here as a chore to clean-up. --Simone (talk) 11:26, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Ramzi bin Alsibh at Guantanamo.jpg[edit]

I have tagged this image to be a canidate to be copied to Commons. If you feel if the file is not free you can respond me to my talk page and explain the reason. Good luck! --Mohamed Aden Ighe (talk) 00:50, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

I tried sending an email to the red cross to clarify the copyright status of a similar image. I got no reply. A red cross image of KSM was uploaded to the commons, challenged, and eventually deleted.
As I see it the intellectual property rights to the Red Cross either belong to the Red Cross, or to the Red Cross employee who took them, or, possibly, when the Red Cross gave the images to their intended audience, they passed on all the intellectual property rights.
As I understand it, the images that have been republished all came from the family members.
In my experience commons people have little patience for arguments based on guessing what the copyright owner would want.
We have some pictures from Omar Khadr's family album. The first two images, one when he looked about 8, and another post puberty, were very widely republished. But we didn't know where they came from. Eventually we heard from his sister. Those images had been handed out to reporters, without taking names, or asserting any conditions.
Personally, I thought that was tantamount to putting the images in the public domain. But others didn't agree. Khadr's sister seemed mystified by our concerns. But she did finally explicitly place all the images in to the public domain. I think that, in the long run, would be a similar statement from binalshibh's family, or lawyer.
But I have no objection to you trying to promote it to the commons, just please keep an eye on when to restore it here if it is deleted from the commons.
Cheers! Geo Swan (talk) 01:39, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
So, do not copy to commons becuase this work is not from the US? Mohamed Aden Ighe (talk) 00:58, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
I am afraid the exact owners of the intellectual property rights are not clear, and the terms (if any) they specified when they allowed the images to be republished would have to be guesswork. I am pretty confident that someone on the commons would challenge the images on that grounds.
Cheers! Geo Swan (talk) 01:56, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
Hi GeoSwan. You seem quite clued up on all this and I don't really understand the criteria for inclusion or deletion. So I am writing to you to ask if you could explain please for me. A discussion has been bouncing around about the usage of a similar photo of Khalid Sheik Mohammedwith the exact same issues. Most recently here: [1]. Do you know what the status is with these Red Cross arranged photos? I have recently uploaded this one [2] (again?).
Also the one of KSM all dishevelled [3] seems to me to be a WP:MUG infringement. Is there a way to get that deleted from the picture library? If so do you know how does one go about that?--Mystichumwipe (talk) 07:38, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
There are two alternate sets of templates for asserting that images qualify for inclusion as "fair use". The most commonly used pair are {{Non-free use rationale}} and {{non-free fair use in}}. You can see I put a "no" for the low resolution field. There are some contributors who may regard that as the wrong answer. Geo Swan (talk) 21:14, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
With regard to the exact copyright status of the images taken by the Red Cross, I am afraid I don't know. I made an attempt to contact the Red Cross spokesman who spoke about these iamges, through email, and got no reply. could have tried other email addresses, or snail mail. I suspect the images could be considered public domain, and that we are too cautious. But we have to go by consensus. Geo Swan (talk) 21:26, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
With regard to WP:MUG, to the best of my knowledge, there is no equivalent Commons:Mugshot.
There is a {{delete}} template on commons that guides one through the nomination process. Rather than MUG, you could consider asking whether it should be deleted as a violtion of the Fourth Geneva Convention. Tht 4th Convention, signed after ww2, protects everyone in a warzone, even war criminals. They are not only protected from torture, they are protected from public humiliation. That video of a medic checking a disheveled Saddam Hussein for head lice was a violation of the GC.
I am not that familiar with the use of MUG.
Good luck! Geo Swan (talk) 21:44, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

WikiProject Terrorism - Welcome Back![edit]

Welcome back from Wiki Project Terrorism! I'm Katarighe, a Wikipedian member since 2009. I'm currently the successor of Sherurcij in September because, he has not edited Wikipedia using this account for a considerable amount of time since May 2010. We are trying to renovate the new WP page this fall 2011 and we look forward this month whats next. If you are interested, start the renovation with us and new awards on contributing terrorism are coming soon. The WP terrorism newsletter begins January 2012. See you on October for the updates on WP terrorism. I will send this message next month about the updates. Good Luck.

Delivered by MessageDeliveryBot on behalf of Terrorism at 22:37, 25 September 2011 (UTC).

Guantanamo military commission[edit]

I'm going to tackle the Guantanamo military commission article. Can you give me list of forked or related articles? Besides the list of Guantanamo_military_commission#See_also, I only know of the stub listed at the end of the discussion page Office of Military Commissions. Btw, that comment (Talk:Guantanamo_military_commission#Redirecting) has got a point, GTMO MC is basically colloquial. Military Commissions redirects to Military_tribunals_in_the_United_States, while Military Commission redirects to Military justice. A mess.

There is a [new website] for Military Commissions that should be taken advantage of. Mnnlaxer (talk) 15:24, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

  1. User:Geo Swan/Individuals who faced charges before Guantanamo military commissions
You are absolutely correct that the article needs a lot of work, and updating.
I'll share a bee in my bonnet first. Some people see three major changes to the Guantanamo military commission system
2004? original Presidentially authorized military commissions, ruled unconstitutional by the SCOTUS in Hamdan v. Bush
2006 Congressionally autorized military commissions, authorized by the Military Commissions Act of 2006
2009 Congressionally autorized military commissions, authorized by the Military Commissions Act of 2009
But the greatest change to the military commission system were made following the hush-hush forced resignation of Fred Borch, the first chief prosecutor in the summer of 2004. As originally constitued the Presiding officer was the first among equals, and got to vote on the guilt or innocence, as well as making rulings on the admissability of evidence, and so on, and lead the commission. There were a larger number of commission members. Borch promised the prosecutors who worked under him that their job wouldn't be difficult, as all the exculpatory evidence would be classified, and withheld from the suspects and their defense team, and the that all the commission members would be handpicked so they would be sure to convict. No, I am not making this up.
I haven't looked into the most recently announced changes, they too may be significant.
I'll list the linked articles in groups, Geo Swan (talk) 20:15, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
OMG. Give me the weekend to reply in full. Mnnlaxer (talk) 21:44, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
This is great work. A solid base to work from. I've been commenting on the Awlaki killing since Friday, will get back here and dig in soon. Mnnlaxer (talk) 20:06, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
working on other (smaller) projects. Will return eventually. Mnnlaxer (talk) 06:26, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

articles linked to from Guantanamo military commissions[edit]

articles that cover some aspect of the commissions[edit]

  1. Office of Military Commissions
  2. Unlawful combatant MCA 2006 only authorized the commissions to try "unlawful enemy combatants", apparently congressman overlooked that the CSR Tribunals only determine if the captives were "enemy combatants"
  3. Hamdi v. Rumsfeld SCOTUS
  4. Ex parte Quirin a precedent
  5. Federal tribunals in the United States
  6. Arthur Raymond Randolph wrote the majority opinion for the D.C. Circuit in Hamdan v. Rumsfeld
  7. Legal Advisor (Office of Military Commissions)
  8. Cass Sunstein senior government lawyer who asserted the presidentially authorized commissions were constitutional
  9. Director of Operations, Planning and Development for Military Commissions
  10. Military Commissions Act of 2006
  11. Military Commissions Act of 2009

articles about lawyers or other administrative staff who worked for or at the commissions[edit]

  1. John D. Altenburg first "convening authority
    1. Convening authority (court-martial)
  2. Susan J. Crawford convening authority
  3. Bruce MacDonald (American lawyer) convening authority
  4. Wendy Kelly director of operations of the Office of Military Commissions
  5. Andrew Williams (US Navy lawyer) resignation speculated to have been due to extreme bullying by Thomas W. Hartmann
  6. Thomas W. Hartmann an advisor to the Convening Authority
  7. Michael Chapman former deputy to Hartmann promoted to replace him
  8. Director of Operations, Planning and Development for Military Commissions face saving position created for Hartmann when his abusive behavior caused him to be barred from involvement in three cases
Presiding officers[edit]
  1. Presiding Officer (Guantanamo Military Commissions)
  2. Peter Brownback
  3. Robert Chester
  4. Steven David (Judge)
  5. Patrick Parrish
  6. Ralph Kohlmann
  7. James L. Pohl
  8. Moira Modzelewski
  9. Nancy J. Paul
  10. Keith J. Allred
  11. Raymond Eugene Beal
  12. Stephen R. Henley
  13. Bruce W. MacKenzie
  14. Ronald A. Gregory
Chief prosecutors[edit]
  1. Fred Borch
  2. Morris Davis
other prosecutors[edit]
  1. Robert L. Swann (military lawyer)
  2. Darrel Vandeveld
military defense attorneys[edit]
  1. Thomas Fleener
  2. Suzanne Lachelier
  3. William C. Kuebler
other defense attorneys[edit]
  1. Robert D. Rachlin
  2. Andrea J. Prasow
  3. Karl R. Thompson helped defend Guantanamo captives -- later appointed to the Office of Legal Counsel
habease attorneys who aren't also defense attorneys[edit]
evidence related[edit]
  1. Mustafa Setmariam Nasar

articles about individuals who faced charges before the military commissions[edit]

  1. Ibrahim al Qosi
  2. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed
  3. David Hicks
    1. Guantanamo: My Journey
  4. Ammar al-Baluchi
  5. Omar Khadr
    1. Maher Arar -- that Khadr had met Arar was part of the justification for trying Khadr
    2. Jeffrey Groharing -- Khadr's prosecutor
      1. MaryAnne Sapio -- Khadr's prosecutor's wife, a former Miss California
  6. Salim Hamdan
    1. Abdullah Tabarak Ahmad -- his role in OBL's staff was discussed at Hamdam's commission
    2. Daryl Matthews -- a Psychiatrist who was going to testify at Hamdan's commission
  7. Binyam Mohamed -- was tortured, so he may not be recharged.
    1. Dirty bomb -- Binyam Mohamed was once accused of playing a role in a trumped "dirty bomb" plot.
  8. Fouad Mahmoud al Rabiah
  9. Jabran al-Qahtani
  10. Sufyian Barhoumi
  11. Ghassan al-Sharbi
  12. Ramzi bin al-Shibh
  13. Mohamedou Ould Slahi -- Prosecutor Stuart Couch quit due to Slahi's torture.
  14. Ahmed Ghailani -- transferred to NYC for a civilian trial
  15. Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri
  16. Walid bin Attash
  17. Ali al-Bahlul
  18. Abdul Zahir (Guantanamo Bay detainee 753)
    1. Kathleen Kenna was one of the victims of a grenade attack Zahir was allegedly involved in...
  19. Obaydullah
  20. The Faisalabad Three
  21. Tariq al-Sawah
  22. Noor Uthman Muhammed
  23. Mohamed Jawad
    1. Randall Schmidt retired senior officer who was scheduled to testify on Jawad's behalf
  24. Ahmed al-Darbi
  25. Mohammed Kamin
  26. Ali al-Bahlul
  27. Mustafa al-Hawsawi
    1. Jon S. Jackson Mustafa al-Hawsawi's military lawyer
    2. Montasser el-Zayat has been tasked to defend Mustafa al-Hawsawi
articles about individuals who have been the subject of speculation about charges...[edit]
  1. Mohamad Farik Amin
  2. Majid Khan (detainee)
  3. Riduan Isamuddin
  4. Abdul Hadi al Iraqi

articles that link to Guantanamo military commissions because they are related[edit]

  1. Guantanamo Bay Naval Base
  2. Buffalo Six
  3. Abdullah Khadr
  4. Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse
  5. George W. Bush's second term as President of the United States
  6. Abdul Rahman al-Amri -- died in custody shortly before the commissions were reinstated
  7. Guantanamo Bay detention camp suicide attempts -- observers have noted most death occurred shortly before the military commissions recommenced
  8. Detention, Treatment, and Trial of Certain Non-Citizens in the War Against Terrorism
  9. Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Terrorists
  10. Military tribunals in the United States
  11. Combatant Status Review Tribunal
  12. Competent tribunal
  13. Matthew Diaz -- a lawyer at Guantanamo who leaked a list of captives in 2005
  14. Vijay Padmanabhan -- prominent lawyer who criticize the Military Commissions
  15. John Hutson -- prominent lawyer who criticize the Military Commissions
  16. Talat Hamdani -- mother of a heroic muslim first responder who died during 9-11 -- was invited to be a civilian witness to the commissions.
  17. Jonathan Beale -- BBC reporter who has covered the commissions
other habease related articles[edit]
  1. Hamdan v. Rumsfeld -- went all the way to the SCOTUS, which ruled the President doesn't have to constitution authority to institute miliary commissions in peacetime.
    1. Neal Katyal a lead counsel in Hamdan v. Rumsfeld

unsorted[edit]

  1. List of people from the Pittsburgh metropolitan area
  2. List of Guantanamo Bay detainees
  3. Tarnak Farms
  4. Camp Delta (Guantanamo Bay)
  5. List of Guantanamo Bay detainees
  6. Lists of habeas petitions filed on behalf of War on Terror detainees
  7. Fort Hood shooting
  8. Command responsibility
  9. Guantanamo Bay detention camp
  10. Uyghur detainees at Guantanamo Bay
  11. Guantanamo detainees who officially reported abuse
  12. Al Qaida guest houses, Kabul
  13. Ronald Rotunda
  14. Al-Qaeda guest houses, Faisalabad
  15. Habeas corpus in the United States
  16. Guantanamo Bay attorneys
  17. Summary of Evidence (ARB)
  18. Guantanamo Bay detainees captured on the battlefield
  19. Wikipedia:In the news/Candidates/March 2007
  20. Enhanced interrogation techniques
  21. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2007 May 6
  22. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alexander George Arbuthnot
  23. Kevin Sandkuhler
  24. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jabir Hasan Muhamed Al Qahtani
  25. Patrick F. Philbin
  26. Saudi detainees at Guantanamo Bay
  27. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2007 May 27
  28. Rob Wyda
  29. Keith J. Allred
  30. Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2007 June 8
  31. Military Police: Enemy Prisoners of War, Retained Personnel, Civilian Internees and Other Detainees
  32. Habeas corpus petitions of Guantanamo Bay detainees
  33. Kristine A. Huskey
  34. United States Court of Military Commission Review
  35. USA v. Barhoumi
  36. USA v. Al Qahtani
  37. December 2008
  38. Thomas W. Hartmann
  39. Guantanamo Bay detainee documents
  40. Robert Gensburg
  41. Camp Echo (Guantanamo Bay)
  42. Moroccan detainees at Guantanamo Bay
  43. Guantanamo Bay attorneys
  44. Will A. Gunn
  45. Telephone access of Guantanamo Bay detainees
  46. Kyndra Rotunda
  47. Bruce MacDonald (American lawyer)
  48. Colby Vokey
  49. October 2010
  50. 2008 in Australia
  51. Ashara guest house
  52. Kuwaiti detainees at Guantanamo Bay
  53. Lawrence Morris
  54. United States v. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed
  55. Algerian detainees at Guantanamo Bay
  56. Jeh Johnson
  57. Sudanese detainees at Guantanamo Bay
  58. Boycott of Guantanamo Military Commissions
  59. Keith A. Petty
  60. Evan Kohlmann
  61. The Al Qaida Plan
  62. Frequent flyer program (Guantanamo)
  63. David J. R. Frakt
  64. Pauline Storum
  65. Telephone access of Guantanamo Bay detainees
  66. Gregory Zanetti
  67. Al Halmandy v. Bush
  68. Michael Chapman (lawyer)
  69. Trials related to the September 11 attacks
  70. USS Cole bombing video
  71. Presidency of Barack Obama
  72. United States war crimes
  73. Robert Fuller (FBI)
  74. First 100 days of Barack Obama's presidency
  75. Kurt Lippold
  76. John F. Murphy (JAG)
  77. List of resignations from the Guantanamo military commission
  78. United States v. Mohamed Jawad
  79. Al-Kandari
  80. Barry Wingard
  81. Dirk Padgett
  82. Timeline of the release and transfer of Guantanamo Bay detainees
  83. Legal issues related to the September 11 attacks
  84. Clarence Thomas

YGM[edit]

You've got mail. Risker (talk) 20:58, 29 September 2011 (UTC)