Talk:Asmodeus

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Untitled[edit]

Unsure of how to fix this: It mentions in the first paragraph that the Book of Tobit is deuterocanonical, but then proceedes in the Asmodai in Judaism section to mention (elaborate?) the Book of Tobit. Is this not a kind of mismatch?

http://www.piney.com/ApocTobit.html

I am new here so I didn't want to go moving too much around, but if any more experienced editors could clean this up that would be good. -- user:Goosey

FYI I just met this demon unexpectedly for the first time while helping a teen break their pact with Satan, thanks to wikipedia I know what it is about Keith Hodges (talk) 03:38, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Not really. The fact that this particular book is not part of the Hebrew Biblical canon doesn't change the fact that it is a Jewish religious text. -- Naive cynic 19:50, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Job: A comedy of Justice-he is mentioned there[edit]

Towards the end of the Robert A. Heinlein novel, Job: A Comedy of Justice, he is mentioned by at least one name-A.S. Modeus, and perhaps by a slightly altered version of the the name Asmodai. Worth a look.

Asmodai in the Lesser Key of Solomon[edit]

It is stated that in the Lesser Key of Solomon he is ranked only 32nd. I don't pretend to be an expert on this, but to me it doesn't appear that the numbering of demons in this work reflects their actual rank. Indeed, Asmoday is described to be "first and choicest under the power of Amaymon, he goeth before all other". (This is the Mathers/Crowley edition.) After the list of the demons, it is said: "These be the 72 mighty kings and princes which king Solomon commanded into a Vessel of Brass, together with their legions, of whom Belial, Bileth, Asmoday and Gaap were chief."

http://www.sacred-texts.com/grim/lks/lks07.htm

He is actually called Asmoday in the Lesser Key of Solomon, and he is a King, his seal is gold.

Additions[edit]

I added some things, moved some around, and formated a bit. More citations are going to be needed if this article is to go anywhere. I may work the demonology section into the section I called Asmoday soon. But seeing as how my additions were the only ones cited, I seperated it from the rest for now, but will try to find sources for the demonology section. Zos 04:33, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

List of references and trivia[edit]

The list is getting out of hand. Way too many entries and trivia, so I moved it to the talk page where hopefully we can integrate some of its content into the article body as stated in WP:TRIV. Orphu of Io 10:50, 6 January 2007 (UTC)


Asmodai in fiction[edit]

  • In Dungeons & Dragons, Asmodeus currently resides in Fortress Malsheem, located in Nessus, the ninth layer of Baator. He is acknowledged by all baatezu as the king of Baator, essentially making him lord of the nine layers of Hell. In earlier publications, Asmodeus was the Lord of the Nine Hells, having overthrown Baalzebub (now Baalzebul), who himself overthrew Satan (who walks the Earth). Asmodeus was Lawful Evil and overlord of the (lawful) devils (as opposed to Demogorgon who was Chaotic Evil and overlord of the (choaotic) demons).
  • In David Allen's video game, Mordor: The Depths of Dejenol, as Asmodeus, the Prince of Devils and the game's ultimate boss.
  • El Diablo Cojuelo (The Cripple Devil), by Luís Vélez de Guevara
  • Paradise Lost, by John Milton
  • In Redwall, by Brian Jacques, he is a giant adder (see Asmodeus Poisonteeth).
  • In the Wheel of Time books by Robert Jordan as Asmodean, one of the thirteen Forsaken, near-immortal men and women of magical might and political influence who serve the Dark One.
  • In Nomine as Asmodeus, one of the Demon Princes.
  • Shadow Hearts: Covenant as Asmodeus, a demon. He was summoned by Rasputin.
  • Terranigma as Asmodeus, the disease that ravaged the surface world.
  • Megatokyo webcomic as Asmodeus, archenemy to Seraphim
  • In the Japanese comic Angel Sanctuary, Asmodeus was once a member of the cherubim and represents the sin of Lust as one of the Seven Satans.
  • Gene Roddenberry's Spectre has a fictional cult devoted to the worship of him. In addition, the animated Star Trek episode The Magicks of Megas-tu features a resident of Megas-tu who claims he was known, on Earth, as Asmodeus.
  • In the arcade/Nintendo 64 fighting game Mace: The Dark Age, Asmodeus is a demon who wields an unholy relic called the Mace of Tanis. Drawing on its netherwordly power, he supports the Covenant of Seven, an alliance of vicious rulers in the medieval world. In return, these sovereigns constantly war on their neighbouring countries and subject their lessers to the worst kinds of torture imaginable, thus satisfying the dark cravings of the Mace and its master.
  • The first Star Ocean video game features the Demon King Asmodeus as the source of the virus that ravaged the planet of Roak.
  • In the Ogre Battle Saga, as both Asmodeus and Asmodee, the god of Bane.
  • In Gabriel Knight 3: Blood of the Sacred, Blood of the Damned, Asmodeus is the demon the titular character must defeat in the Temple of Solomon.
  • In the comic series RFU, Asmodai is the leader of the Pointy Hat Guys, responsible for orchestrating many of the series' events.
  • In the PC game Diablo, referred to as Azmodan, the Lord of Sin.
  • In Anne Perry's Tathea, Asmodeus is the evil counterpart to God.
  • In Linda Haldeman's Esbae: A Winter's Tale, Chuck Holmes summons the demon Asmodeus to help him pass his college classes.
  • In Robot Alchemical Drive, Asmodeus is the Leader of an evil robot race, and the final boss.
  • In a Role-Playing Story called the "Yoshi Bodyguards" (formerly located in the Nintendo Nsider Forums, now in a private forum), Asmodeus is a Titan made of fire. The story's main character was named Asmodeus as well.
  • In a series of novels by Richard Harland called the Heaven and Earth Trilogy, Asmodai is a fallen angel who pretends to repent. He is welcomed back into Heaven, but secretly continues to plot Heaven's fall.
  • In the video game Painkiller, Asmodeus is the leader of Lucifer's armies. In the expansion, he usurps the throne of Lucifer.
  • In Charmed the leader of the demonic group, the Triad, is named Asmodeus.
  • Asmodai is also the name given to the Interrogator-Chaplain of the Dark Angels Space Marine chapter in the Warhammer 40,000 fictional universe.
  • In Raven's Gate, by Anthony Horowitz, Jayne Deverill, a witch, has a cat called Asmodeus.
  • In the action videogame Max Payne, the psychotic mafia goon Jack Lupino mentions Asmodeus in his deluded worship of various demons and other malevolent figures.
  • Asmodaios was the name of a Greek satirical newspaper published by writer Emmanouel Roidis between 1875 and 1876.
  • Asmodeus is the name of the demon who is about to be raised by his followers demons in the Playstation 2's game Shadowman 2 Second Coming.
  • Asmodeus is the name of the demon of lust in the film Demon hunter (2005) portrayed by the actor Billy Drago.
  • In the book Dora, Doralina by Rachel De Queiroz, Asmodeus is the name of the main character's second husband/true love. His father named him Asmodeus in order to spite a local Catholic priest.

Trivia[edit]

In Larry Miller's Just Words, Miller makes a reference to Asmodeus in describing one of his "friends," also making a reference to Goethe's Faust-Mephistopheles.


Jewish Encyclopedia material[edit]

Would recommend simply using this material as a source and integrating it into the appropriate sections of the article and citing rather than keeping intact. The Jewish Encyclopedia's view of Asmodai in Zoroastrianism should go in the Zoroastrianism section, for example. --Shirahadasha 04:20, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

>> Would recommend simply using this material as a source and integrating it into the appropriate sections of the article and citing rather than keeping intact.
done.
>> The Jewish Encyclopedia's view of Asmodai in Zoroastrianism should go in the Zoroastrianism section, for example.
The Jewish Encyclopedia (1906!) is hardly a legitimate source of information on Zoroastrianism. In any case, Asmodai is not a Zoroastrian entity. Aeshma(-Daeva) is, and there are articles on both halves of that compound term.
-- Fullstop 16:58, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Asmodeus/Asmodai in the Christian Bible[edit]

Has Asmodeus/Asmodai ever been mentioned in any translation/version of the Christian Bible?

Yes, in the Catholic and Orthodox versions. See Book of Tobit thx1138 (talk) 18:14, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was Move Parsecboy (talk) 12:13, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

AsmodaiAsmodeus — Asmodeus, the graeco-latinised form, is most widely used name to refer to the entity. — Casliber (talk · contribs) 09:40, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Survey[edit]

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
  • Oppose Why not use a redirect? Phil_burnstein (talk) 13:38, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
    • Comment: done. -- Fullstop (talk) 16:35, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Support it is the accepted English name as far as I can discern. Epson291 (talk) 21:01, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
  • The Jewish and Catholic Encyclopedias, and Britannica Support the proposal. I'll explain some of the issues in discussion below. Alastair Haines (talk) 21:02, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Support. This, with s for Shin, is neither Greek, Latin, nor Hebrew. Use the conventional form in English. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:56, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Support I think the policy in question here is WP:Use English; "Use the most commonly used English version of the name of the subject as the title of the article, as you would find it in verifiable reliable sources". Google News, Books and Scholar searches all bring back more results for Asmodeus; it appears reliable encyclopedias use the term too. I see no obvious counterarguments and so support the move.
    To the person who says "Why not use a redirect", of course both names should point at the article; currently Asmodeus is a redirect: The question is, which of the candidate titles is most appropriate here; I argue that WP:UE means it should be Asmodeus. --Rogerb67 (talk) 11:06, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Discussion[edit]

Any additional comments:
We are being asked to choose between the Hebrew transliteration and the Christian usage. Why choose? Phil_burnstein (talk) 13:50, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Comment: Asmodai isn't even the correct transliteration. Epson291 (talk) 21:04, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Hey yeah...I thought it was Ashmedai anyway....Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:17, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) Many articles are at anglicised or otherwise derived terms, thus we have Saturn and not Saturnus, and Cronus and not Kronos, and Thoth and not ḏiḥautī for instance. The rule for all of these is the more widely used name, which Asmodeus is. Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:16, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Isn't it remarkable that a word with more vowel sounds than consonants (and with only one explicitly declared vowel) would -- in a script with highly ambiguous vowel characters -- be considered to have a "correct transliteration"? In phonetics the term is "wishful thinking". -- Fullstop (talk) 00:07, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
Thinking aloud
I think the etymology section of the current article helps point out why we can relax about the spelling here.
The name is believed to derive from the Avestan language (which is a long lost cousin of English, Greek and Latin), but is first attested in the Greek-second-language writing of the Aramaic-speaking, second-temple Jewish people. The Jewish Encyclopedia considers that the name "cannot" be derived from the Semitic language three consonant root system, in this case Sh-M-D (שמד, "destroy"). {It would be good to have more information on why they think that.}
It would appear that a Persian name was adapted to suit Aramaic, then readapted to Greek and eventually into Latin. All these languages were dominant world languages in their day, rather like English at the present time. The name has adapted with the times, why should it stop changing? How can we privelege any one time from the past over the others in selecting a "correct" transliteration?
In the current case I'd suggest it would be unwise to go back to the Avestan, because we are not exactly sure that is the source, and the Zoroastrian and Rabbinic traditions have substantial differences.
On the other hand, there are many cute things about running with common English usage. The common English form is just a Latin form, which fits with the fact that the Roman Catholic church holds to the accuracy of the book of Tobit (whereas Jews and Protestants don't). Also a Latin form takes us back into an Indo-European language expression of the word, which could give us echoes of the original Avestan after all. For example, Asmo-deus, if from Avestan Aeshma-devi, does actually pick up that Latin deus (God) and devi (or devi) are well-known Indo-European cognates.
Against my own view is that of the turn of the 20th century German scholars (see Wolf Wilhelm Graf von Baudissin, "Asmodi", below), who were perfectly comfortable with Latin, but prefered the Semitic form of the name; but they were writing for a different audience.
Look up Tobit 3 in any Catholic Bible and you will find Asmodeus, spelled just like that. He's not in Jewish or Protestant Bibles though, 'cause they don't include that book.
Alastair Haines (talk) 23:24, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
The full form of the King James Version includes the Apocrypha, complete with Tobit, and Asmodeus, here. (I suppose this raises the question of whether the Anglican Communion is Protestant; let's not go there ;->) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:00, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


Any relation to Samael? They seem to be wife-swapping. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.39.212.101 (talk) 19:13, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

See also?[edit]

The article 'Rennes-le-Château' included in the See Also section does not mention demons at all, much less ashmodai. Did I miss something? Phil_burnstein (talk) 09:17, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

No idea. removed. Casliber (talk · contribs) 10:23, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Additional sources[edit]

Just dropping in refs as I poke about a bit.

Dungeons and Dragons ref[edit]

It doesn't belong. Every other example in that section is cited to an independent source, which indicates that particular depiction's impact on the general popular perception. The monstrous manual and DMG "references" do not do that, and there is no indication they are important to the general perception. They belong at the IPC article, not here. Mintrick (talk) 07:04, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Sourcing to primary, secondary or tertiary sources is a guideline, not a rule. But in the interests of avoiding an edit war, I will procure secondary sourcing. Casliber (talk · contribs) 10:20, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

English please[edit]

Asmodeus would thus seem to be a demon characterized by carnal desire; but he is also described as an evil spirit in general: 'Ασμοδαίος τὸ πονηρὸν δαιμόνιον or τõ δαιμόνιον πονηρόν, and πνεῦμα ἀκάθαρτον (iii.8, 17; vi.13; viii.3).

This is English Wikipedia not a lit journal. Readers cannot be expected to read other languages. --Tysto (talk) 02:34, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

sources are incomplete[edit]

A source needs to be added for Rudwin, mentioned in the references but otherwise undefined. Rwflammang (talk) 00:49, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

The reference is ref #11 - I added others with the other page numbers. I'll split out. Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:15, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Talmud and Qur'an[edit]

I added a needed reference to Asmodeus in the Talmud. GITTEN 68a & 68b.. where you can find the story of capturing him using the magic ring of Solomon and a magic chain (much like Frodo & Gollum actually!!) There is a mention in the Qur'an of Demons helping Solomon (Sulaiman) build stuff & get marbles from under the sea. Sura (Sad 38:37) "Then We subjected the Wind To his power, to flow Gently to his order, Whithersoever he willed,— As also the evil ones, (Including) every kind Of builder and diver,— As also others bound Together in fetters."

Salama

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.46.17.105 (talk) 07:03, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Problems with former references[edit]

It seems confusion arises between the former poster's views who claims the Jewish encyclopedia would have said that there are no links whatsoever between AEshma Daeva and Ashmodai, yet he posted only the link to the reference in the encyclopedia "Aeshma" http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/873-aeshma-asmodeus-ashmedai while I looked up "Asmodeus" http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/2019-asmodeus I came to believe both articles were from different sites but no it comes from the same website which has the unedited full text 1906 version of the Jewish Encyclopedia. Still in the Aeshma article in the encyclopedia, there is a chapter called "Influence of Persian Beliefs on Judaism." : "However, it is not impossible that Æshma-dæva, too, may have had other qualities analogous, point for point, to those of Asmodeus and Ashmedai. It is probable that the belief in the existence of a number of carnally minded and lascivious spirits, which was prevalent among the Parsees as among other peoples with whom the people of Israel came in contact, exercised an influence not merely on the Hebrew conceptions of an Asmodeus or Ashmedai, but also on Jewish ideas in general with regard to the qualities of evil spirits."

"Not the least was the influence of Parseeism."

"the depiction of Ashmedai in the Talmud, show that the popular beliefs of the Persians have likewise had a bearing, presumably in the first instance, on popular beliefs, and later, through them, on their theological modes of thought."

More, in the article "Asmodeus" in the encyclopedia , the etymological connection is refuted: "A consideration of the linguistic arguments does not support the hypothesis of an identification of Ashmedai with Æshma-dæva, as "dai" in Ashmedai hardly corresponds with the Persian "dæva," in view of the Syriac form "dawya" (demon) with the consonant "w"; nor is there any instance of the linking of "Æshma" and "dæva" in Persian texts."

yet, in the same chapter of the same article comparing AEshma with Ashmodai there is a part denoting that in some texts their roles and appearance are somehow similar: "Asmodeus of the Apocrypha, and Æshma, however, seem to be related. In the Testament of Solomon Asmodeus appears as seducing man to unchaste deeds, murder, and enmity, and thus reveals many points in common with Æshma. The "Bundehish" (xxviii. 15-18) furnishes the most striking resemblance: "There, wherever Æshm lays a foundation, many creatures perish." " — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.240.163.245 (talk) 21:59, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

what's an introvet? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.167.213.118 (talk) 22:24, 14 September 2013 (UTC)