Talk:Muhammad/images

An outside opinion

1. WP:NOTCENSORED does in fact prevent us from making exceptions to our policies because "it offends people". It is a bad argument for not having images--as long as there would have otherwise been images. It's clear that images belong in articles on depictions of Muhammad and on the Denmark cartoon controversy, simply as necessary illustrations of the subject, but what about here? 2. WP:NPOV does apply to this article. It's clear that, just as many Muslims are offended by images of Muhammad, a lot of people find the ban on depicting Muhammad distasteful to their notions of free speech. If that leads people to plaster images all over everywhere just to annoy the fundamentalists, we have an npov problem on our hands. On the other hand, by removing all the images we support the point of view of those who oppose images. 3. This is an article on Muhammad, not on the controversy over depictions of Muhammad. As far as I can tell the images are just there to illustrate events in Muhammad's life, not as examples of Muslim exceptions to the ban on representational images. 4. Muhammad has occasionally been depicted by Muslims, in various circumstances. This is the exception rather than the rule--only a minority of Muslims do this. In an article on the Buddha, visual depiction of the Buddha is the norm across Buddhism; this is more or less the case with Jesus as well. But if we only had Eastern Orthodox images of Jesus or Vajrayana images of the Buddha, that would be an WP:UNDUE problem. (That said, those other articles maybe haven't given so much thought to the weighting issue; images of the Buddha are slanted toward Indian Buddhism and images of Jesus are slanted toward Western European images of the Baroque and Renaissance). 5. There are ways in which we do take "sensitivity" into account as a matter of course--as long as those sensitivities are widely held in Western culture. Certain types of sexual content are viewed as too extreme; the nude on pregnancy is likely to be removed because it makes an otherwise innocuous article NSFW. Yes, I'm contradicting myself here, and I'm not sure these are good analogies. 6. Compare the Arabic article; it mostly uses aniconic imagery, with it looks like a couple actual depictions of Muhammad. Maybe it's going to far in the other direction, but it shows that what the English Wikipedia is doing with images isn't the only way. Regional biases shouldn't exist with NPOV but in practice they are inevitable (for instances, the Turkish Wikipedia being more skeptical than other wikis of the Armenian Genocide. en is just as likely to be at fault as any other version of Wikipedia. 169.231.54.14 (talk) 19:03, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Nicely stated. ROBERTMFROMLI | ^TK/_CN 19:11, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

As has been pointed out above, there are no depictions in the Arabic article (the ones you are thinking of are of other people), but 5 in the featured Farsi article - several the same ones as here (and minus our one European image, the same number). None in the pretty short Turkish & Indonesian (bahasia) articles either. Johnbod (talk) 19:15, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

I think the IP has summed up the situation quite nicely. And there are a lot of useful images in the Arabic article (calligraphy, relics and others) that could help us shift the balance in our article here. (Unfortunately, some of these also have templates pointing out copyright problems.)

The difference between the Farsi vs. the Turkish, Indonesian and Arabic articles seems indicative of the fact that Iran, as a Shiite (and non-secular) country, is actually more tolerant of Muhammad imagery [1] than predominantly Sunni societies (even secular ones like Turkey). --JN466 09:53, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

I have a similar, but lengthier opinion here if anyone is interested. If this ever comes to a RFC this would form the guts of my objections to the removal of purportedly offensive images. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 04:22, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

I richly commend the above-linked essay; all but the last sentence which I vigorously oppose with every fibre of my being :), --Anthonyhcole (talk) 04:48, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

The part about only revisiting consensus if there is an indication the community has changed its mind? That line is used to head off tendentious editing and civil POV-pushing, where essentially a single editor or small number of editors continuously bring up a topic until the patience of other editors is exhausted and they leave. Essentially, if you've raised a point three times in the same environment (policies, guidelines and community is overall unchanged), and in particular have no new arguments and the response is always the same, stop bringing it up. Ludwig2's original point about the WMF's new resolution on least surprise and its applicability to the images is a change to the community and thus merits some discussion. I don't think it's legitimate reason to remove the images, and nor do most people, and once the discussion is over it should not be raised again as a reason to remove the images unless there is a reason to (i.e. the WMF has explicitly stated that the resolution applies to the Muhammad page). We have specific policies and guidelines about editors who continually push against consensus without changing it because it exhausts the community's patience and draws people away from the act of creating an encyclopedia. They are meant to be used, not sit an a metaphorical shelf. There's a FAQ at the top of the page that addresses squarely and exactly the essential points that have generated thousands of fruitless, repetitive, pointless words of discussion with nothing new arising. I don't think it has helped anyone - not the minority of editors who support the use of images only in line with the thoughts of a single, religiously-motivated minority of the world's population and not the majority of editors who believe those religious motivations do not apply in a secular, non-Muslim educational work. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 13:10, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

"Offending"?

I don't know where else to put it. I beg your pardon for starting a new section. Here is a quote from Tariq Ali, a Muslim who rather feels offended by people who consider Muslim depictions of Mohammed offending:

"In the 13th, 14th and 15th century there were Muslim painters in Herat in Afghanistan, in Persia and in parts of Turkey who painted the prophet. So the notion that this is outside the Islamic tradition is absolute rubbish, which is why I was very angry with the way that some people responded to the Danish newspaper cartoons that attacked Islam. The cartoons were racist - and should have been attacked on that basis. They should not have been attacked on the basis of an Islamic theology which outlaws depiction of Mohammed. That is nonsense." (The Socialist Review, November 2006)

Cheers, Ankimai (talk) 20:16, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

That's a quotation worthy of inclusion in Depictions of Muhammad. And I daresay it represents the views of the majority of Muslims who know the history of their faith. ~Amatulić (talk) 20:56, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Wow, that's a great quote. That might also go well somewhere in the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy article or one of its related spinoffs. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 21:39, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Tariq Ali is a war historian and an admirable man, but not a reliable source on this topic. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 08:11, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Well, there is not a single Islam, just like there is not a single Christianity. The differences are as wide as those between Mormonism and Roman Catholicism. I don't think our socialist writer was particularly knowledgeable in that regard. You could argue as well that Christians should not be upset about the Quran allowing a man to have several wives, because "Christianity" allows it, too. (Aside from the theological argument, the pragmatic argument – that the cartoons could have been attacked more effectively for their racism – is of course sound.) --JN466 10:09, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

And there is the reason why we will run into debates and controversy on this issue no matter what route we take. Remove the images, and you will have "encylopedists", those of other sects of Islam or of other religions and various others complaining. Keep them, and you'll have some of various sects of Islam and those trying to support them complaining. But, only one choice leads down a very dangerous path. That dangerous choice is removing content over religious beliefs or religious objections (again, Scientology article, anyone? Age of the Earth article (where myself and others just had to remove (yet again) the (paraphrased) "you're all wrong, it's 6,000 years old, my Bible tells me so" edit) and numerous other articles). Heck, even in the topics related to Christianity, by the time we are done removing "incidental" and controversial issue at the behest of one sect or another, there wont be anything left in the various articles. And thus, that returns me to the only two major points I've been standing fast on: (1) no special case exceptions - they will spread elsewhere until a lot of articles become special case exceptions (especially when this makes news, which depending on our final resolution, it might just), and (2) take an entirely secular view on all articles (there isn't a single article on religion that I can think of off the top of my head that isn't "objectional" or "controversial" to some or many). Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | ^TK/_CN 20:43, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

I think the only way we can make it editorially fair and policy-compliant, and be seen to be doing so, is by applying the basic NPOV rule that we represent significant viewpoints in proportion to their prominence. We have established that, broadly, Shiites do not seem to have a problem with images of Muhammad, while Sunnis do. Shiites make up approximately 10–13 per cent of the world population of muslims. Their view is a significant minority view that needs to be represented, but per NPOV it should not overshadow the article, but be represented in proportion to its prominence.

If we treat figurative images like the Persian miniatures as specifically Shiite, then certainly the proportion of exclusively Shiite Islamic media – that Sunnis could not identify with – should not exceed 10–13 per cent; indeed, it should be rather less than that, as some of the Islamic media we have in the article, like the calligraphic symbol of Muhammad's name, are meaningful to all muslims, whether Shiite or Sunni, in such a way that Shiite views are in part already reflected in the presence of these common symbols. We should exempt geographical features and the like, as a hill is neither Shiite nor Sunni, but we should include in our thinking whether a mosque we show is a Sunni or Shiite one, or one frequented by all muslims. I think this way we could at least handle the Islamic art, and demonstrate that we have thought about neutrality and tried to apply policy in a meaningful way. --JN466 00:45, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Look, this has been covered above at length; it is a false distinction, but one that some POV Sunni editors here are keen to make - pushing all images into a "Shia" box. Certainly historically many Shia divines objected to images, and no doubt there is a considerable range of views today, although the kneejerk reaction that they are "un-Islamic" that they produce in some uninformed Sunnis is probably missing. The Persian miniature tradition grew up in a period when the great majority of Persian rulers, and a rather smaller majority of the people, were Sunni, and often fiercely persecuted Shias. I hope we all know that the present nearly-all-Shia demographic of Iranian Muslims only goes back to the Safavid dynasty who came to power in 1501, by which time the artistic traditions, including depicting Muhammad when appropriate, were well established. In fact the majority of surviving images of Muhammad come from Ottoman Turkey, which was pretty solidly Sunni - very solidly in the royal family, who commissioned the Siyer-i Nebi etc. Traditional images still fail to shock there, at least in big cities. The area where there is very little evidence that images were ever accepted widely is the Sunni part of the Arabic-speaking world. Johnbod (talk) 01:43, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. However, while all of that is historically true, when we apply NPOV we usually go by the present-day publishing landscape, rather than viewpoints from 500+ years ago. I accept there have been Shiites throughout history who objected to such images, and there have been Sunnis who produced some (though clearly not many for the past few hundred years, and not in the core regions of the Sunni faith); but in terms of showing or republishing them today, Sunnis generally don't like it, and Shiites are okay with it. To be NPOV today, we should reflect that. --JN466 02:22, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Turkey is not "core"? That is even before we go into the issues of Muslims outside traditionally Muslim countries, and the range of views they have. Or the question of who is likely to read English, or have internet access - surely fundamental to the "publishing landscape". Johnbod (talk) 02:27, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Come, don't be so pugnacious. ;) You know very well what I am trying to say. I think the IP made a good point above: no one present-day "school" of Islam should dominate the article's approach to illustration, certainly not a minority school of thought. Please consider it as a way to put this to rest, based on an easily defensible NPOV argument, rather than an eternally contentious application of the NOTCENSORED hammer. Best, --JN466 02:54, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

There's a false premise in the notion that we should consider the proportion of Shia vs Sunni: the assumption is that in writing this article we should adopt a Muslim point of view. We can -- and should -- write about Islam without doing that. The vast majority of the world's population has no objection to images of Muhammad; from a scholarly perspective (encyclopedia, anyone?) there's certainly no objection. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 07:54, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

It's a tricky issue: but our illustrations are Islamic art, and should reflect Islamic art appropriately, in the correct proportions. We would strive to do the same if we illustrated an article on Buddha—we would not just use imagery from one Buddhist tradition. --JN466 08:45, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Even for the "correct proportions" I don't accept that we should pay much (if any) attention to population proportions. In any event, since you didn't respond to it directly, I'll say it again: we should not write/edit this article from a Muslim point of view, giving any weight (in editing decisions) to normative Muslim ideas about what is "appropriate". If you need another example where that question arises (and quickly gets dismissed): Scientologists would prefer that we not write anything about Xenu. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 09:13, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

from a scholarly perspective (encyclopedia, anyone?) there's certainly no objection. There isn't? Because I'm a non-Muslim (non-religious in fact) scholar of religion and I object. Are scholars "offended?" No, but objection is a wholly different matter. Now let me be specific here. I don't object to deceptions of Muhammad on principle and indeed would object to their removal from contexts where they belong, like Depictions of Muhammad (or even one deception in a section by name in this entry). What I object to is their overuse in the entry on Muhammad, an overuse that does not reflect scholarship on Muhammad, or references sources covering the topic. Does that make it clear to you? This is not an art history entry. Have a look at other encyclopedias, introductory religion textbooks, and other reference sources that cover Muhammad as a topic and tell me what kinds of images you see. In fact here's a good exercise.

• Go through the sources that are used in this entry and see what type of depictions of Muhammad you find within them.

If no images at all exist because its just a prose text of course that doesn't mean anything, and I wouldn't argue that. But see what types of images exist. And btw, the argument below about the profit motive deterring encyclopedias from putting depictions of Muhammad in them is nothing but misinformed editor speculation. It is also a clear attempt at a cheap end-run around our foundational principles when it comes to sourcing. Anyway without anything substantive backing the perspective it can't and shouldn't be taken seriously. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 12:15, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Okay, but on what grounds do you "object"? Most people on this talk page who object to the images do so because they are offended or because they believe we should cater to the fact that "Muslims are offended by them". It's fine if that's not where you're coming from, but we can't ignore the fact that that's what is driving most of this discussion (indeed the very existing of this sub-page). It might be possible to have a sensible discussion about "overuse" if we could shut down all the crap about whether the "offensiveness" of the images should play a role in editing decisions (and in any event I'm pleased you agree with me on that latter point). Nomoskedasticity (talk) 12:42, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure we agree on the offensiveness part actually. Offensiveness should always be considered. If we're detracting from the educational value of our entries because we're trying not to offend a handful of people then I agree that we're doing something wrong. But all things equal, we should strive not to offend, but even that isn't the situation here. All things are not equal educationally because flooding the entry with those images actually has a negative educational impact. Again this is not the case in a section specifically about depictions, or in the main entry Depictions of Muhammad or in a relevant section of Islamic art. But in the main content areas of this entry presenting these images presents undue visual information about a subject that is not known through this type of visual information 99.9% of the time. That is what differentiates Muhammad from Jesus and Buddha, btw, both figures who are well known through this type of visual information, and have been throughout history. I've made this argument in several locations already, but I guess I haven't done so here. The surest way to settle this issue is to go back to the sources, and the best sources to start with are the ones use to write this very entry. I'm not a specialist in Islam and I'm happy to consider that my experience with introductory western religion texts, introductory texts on Islam, etc. etc. might be off. But an argument from art history is not about to convince me of that. Go to the sources about Muhammad, not the sources about his depictions because this entry is about Muhammad and not Islamic art. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 13:20, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Well, I think it's going to be quite difficult to have sensible discussions about the educational value of visual representations until the offensiveness question is resolved; we would only be engaging the former issue because of the latter dispute. Would you argue under some specified ceteris paribus condition that we should try to avoid offending scientologists about Xenu? Should we cater to the preferences of Haredi Jews not to see pictures of women? (Some factions now digitally remove them from newspaper photographs even when there is no problem of tzniut). I really don't think it's possible to have a consistent/coherent position along these lines. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 18:36, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I remember that editors agreed to remove one or two cartoon images from the Xenu article a while ago, because of undue concerns. Not to avoid offending Scientologists, as Scientologists would still be offended by the images that remained, as well as the existence of the article itself, but just because it was over the top and actually detracted from the article. --JN466 18:50, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Okay, but from your description it would appear that the handling of those images ("not to avoid offending scientologists...") reinforces my point rather than the opposite (as perhaps you intended). In any event, I am curious to know Griswaldo's answer (anyone else's, of course, but Griswaldo's especially) to my question about Haredi Jews: should we (say, in editing articles on Jews in general or on Haredi Jews specifically) pay any attention at all to their preference not to see pictures of women? To be a bit more specific: should we give any weight at all to the fact that they are offended by pictures of women? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 22:25, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

While we're waiting for Griswaldo. There are 90 people depicted in Haredi. One and two halves of them are women. At least I think they're women; I can't make out their faces but they're looking at dresses. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 23:48, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Nomoskedasticity I'm not sure how you missed the fact that I've already answered the question. "All things being equal ..." is what I wrote. I have no idea what you mean by the Xenu comment so I can't really address that, but with Haredi Jews, clearly we don't remove all images of women from Wikipedia to satisfy one extremely small religious group. That's not "all things being equal," and indeed that's quite clearly diminishing the educational value of the project. Do I have to write specifically, and you will need to use common sense, for you to understand that some manner of rationally considered discretion is necessary when figuring something like this out? But I'm not sure either why you are forcing me to answer this question in the first place, when I've already said that all things aren't even equal in this matter, and that educational value is diminished by not following the lead of other reliable sources on presenting information about Muhammad. Indeed, that was the reason I "objected."Griswaldo (talk) 02:52, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm pressing this issue because I (as I said above) I don't think it's possible to have a coherent and consistent position that gives weight to the offense various people take. You wrote "Offensiveness should always be considered". I disagree; when Haredi Jews feel offended about pictures of women, that's their problem not the problem of wikipedia editors, and it should be given no consideration at all in any editing discussion or decision, even when "all things are equal". Really, none whatsoever. Do you really disagree (as your general statement, quoted here, would imply)? All the other stuff -- educational value and reliable sources and all that -- is of course worth discussing. But given the origins of this particular discussion right now it will be difficult or even impossible to do so until we can separate it from the "offensiveness" question. That's what this thread is about (see the section heading) and it's what the various other threads on other pages are about. I'm interested in trying to resolve it, and it is difficult to do so when people continue to try to change the question. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 08:25, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

You write that "offense" ... should be given no consideration at all in any editing discussion or decision, even when "all things are equal". Really, none whatsoever. If that is your position why are you asking anyone to discuss anything with you? It is an ideological adherence to a extremist doctrine that says never to even consider offense when making editorial decisions. You're welcome to that POV of course, but it leaves no room for discussion with anyone on the issue, ever. My position is that it should always be considered but not that it should always be acted on. Rationally considered based on things like educational value (+/-), levels of offense, and outcomes of offense, different situations will have different answers. Not considering offense, especially if all else is equal, means being willing to possibly damage our reputation and/or lose readership. Of course it is in the best interest of any Encyclopedia to try not to do those things. Also, please understand, that outside of publications that want to offend someone, all publications "consider" offensiveness if the issue is brought up. Sure they have different standards and different conventions for resolving questions of offense, they all consider it. Why? As human being socialized in large groups most of us develop empathy and the ability to consider our actions in terms of cause and effect. If you need to me to expound further on that idea I'd be glad to. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 11:44, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

I can only assume (while noting that you decline to address the issue directly) that you would be willing to "consider" the offensiveness to Haredi Jews of pictures of women -- and perhaps, all other things equal, to refrain from causing offence by omitting such pictures. I am not willing to consider it; I don't see how that amounts to an extremist position (quite the opposite, in fact), and I also don't see how it is preventing us from discussing it (what else are we doing??). Of course, I can see why it would be uncomfortable for you to address the issue (Haredim/women/pictures) directly. But that only shows the difficulty of adopting a view on offensiveness that one could describe as consistent and coherent. By the way, lest anyone think the Haredim/women/pictures issue is something I've simply conjured up, an article in today's HaAretz [2] would dispel that notion. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 12:48, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

"... noting that you decline to address the issue directly." Uhm, no that's entirely false. I addressed it directly and here's what I wrote:

• clearly we don't remove all images of women from Wikipedia to satisfy one extremely small religious group. That's not "all things being equal," and indeed that's quite clearly diminishing the educational value of the project.

Do you need me to rephrase that? The Haredi case is pretty clear cut. Removing all images of women from Wikipedia means a large negative impact to the project's educational value with very little gain in terms of trying not to offend anyone. So there you have it. I "considered" the offensiveness issue you described and in my opinion its not worth the damage. What more do I need to say to address the issue directly? Can you answer my question now? Why are you asking for discussion about something that in your mind isn't open for discussion? I find it disingenuous and a huge waste of time. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 16:09, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

But you haven't answered my question. You've turned it into a different one, one which you naturally find easier to answer (speaking of disingenuous...). You've said, it's not all things equal and so we won't delete pictures of women. But I am asking: if other things were equal (hypothetically), would we give consideration to the fact that Haredi Jews are offended by pictures of women? (If it helps -- imagine that the question pertains not to all pictures of women on Wikipedia but to use of pictures on articles about Haredi Jews.) My question tries to clarify the nature of the principle that says we should consider offence. Once again, I think the feelings of those who are offended by pictures of women deserve no consideration at all. I then find it difficult to embrace the principle in general; to put it the other way around, I don't see how one could embrace the principle in general without embracing the implication that we should care when people (e.g. Haredi Jews) are offended by pictures of women (an implication I abhor). As for your question: I've never said I don't consider the issue open for discussion, and I am plainly interested in discussing it. I'm trying to convince you and others that my position is right; if you've failed to convince me that your position is right it hardly means that I think the issue isn't open for discussion. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:18, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Nomoskedasticity either engage a real situaion or a hypothetical one, but don't take a real subject that I and others have a certain amount of information about and then ask us to make it hypothetical in a way that isn't true to the actual situation and forces us to put aside what we know. You want to make this hypothetical? Group 1 is offended by activity X. All things being equal we could engage in activity X or activity Y here. Either would be just as educational, just as representative, just as easy to do, and only one of them, X causes anyone offense. If that is your question then I have an answer. Do Y instead of X, and that would be my answer every time. The idea of "all things being equal" is something to think with, not something that usually happens in the real world. As I've pointed out in the real situations of Haredis and depictions of women and Muslims and Muhammad all things are not equal. In the Haredi situation it would hurt us educationally to not offend the group (especially since we would need to remove all images of women and not just on the Haredi entry). In the other, when it comes to certain entries, we can actually both offend the group less and increase the educational value by decreasing the number of images in our entry that show Muhammad depicted, and especially that show his face. The Muhammad entry is such an entry. So you have your hypothetical answer now too, just don't ask me to answer about a real group based on unreal premises. I wont do it. It makes no sense and only confused things. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 20:32, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

What appears in other reference works?

There is some mention of this above but it seems important enough to deserve its own section. In this case, what types of images (if any) are used in modern biographical works or articles on the prophet, or similar individuals? Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:23, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks; I'd really welcome further source-based research here. (FWIW, I was unable to find any images of Muhammad in Encyclopaedia Britannica.) --JN466 10:04, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

I'd love to see such a section, and I think Jayen and I discussed this briefly earlier. I think the issue we may run into is figuring out why they have tons of images/no images/some images. Inotherwords, I think we'd need to find some relevance factor such as that. That being the case, my opinion is leaning towards the "Depictions..." article being a more appropriate place (with perhaps mention in the subsection of the same name that is no longer here). Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | ^TK/_CN 20:26, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Other reference works have to pay for images, and the paper they are printed on, and almost all use far fewer in all articles. The most relevant comparison is other wikis, and none of the opposers of all images have yet expained why that hotbed of anti-Muslim sentiment, the Farsi wiki, has 5 images to our 6. In a featured article too. By removing the images would we be abandoning Sunni/Shia neutrality? Very possibly. Anti-Shia POV is very evident among some complainers, as long-term followers of the page will know. Johnbod (talk) 20:32, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Other reference works would also have to worry about lost revenue: including images might mean lost sales (while including images likely wouldn't increase sales among other market segments). Thankfully this is not something we have to worry about. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 22:42, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

As I stated above, these are wholly unfounded speculations without any evidence of being accurate. IMO they are not just groundless, they are wrong. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 14:49, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Does your opinion ("IMO") have any more grounding than mine? Or are your unfounded speculations supposed to be more important than mine? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 18:53, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Your reasoning is not actually sound, if you think about it. A Wikipedia without readers would be as unsatisfactory as a book without buyers. Whether there is an exchange of money is irrelevant; the common factor is product quality, i.e. meeting the target group's needs. --JN466 19:19, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

My position is the defacto position of Wikipedia based on its policies around WP:RS and WP:V. We trust mainstream sources to be mainstream, unless there is a well documented reason not to. We don't dismiss them based on idle speculation. Griswaldo (talk) 19:23, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

• Here is the list of figures in The Cambridge Companion to Muhammad; it does includes four figurative works of art (figures 3, 4, 6, 7, visible in amazon; the two samples from the Indonesian children's book are not images of Muhammad). --JN466 23:41, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Interesting - they aren't visible on Amazon where I am unfortunately. 11 figs + 3 maps, so 4/14. Johnbod (talk) 00:21, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

I have academic access to the Cambridge book online and have looked at all the images. There are two figurative images from the world of Islamic art. One is from a Persian manuscript and in it Muhammad (and only Muhammad) is fully veiled. The other is 20th century Senegalese and Muhammad is virtually formless but for his outline (it looks like a white ghost with a halo basically). There are two other figurative images and both are in a specific section of the book titled "European Accounts of Muhammad's Life." Both of these show his face - one is from an early illuminated French translation of the Quran and the other is a photo of part of a frieze from the U.S. Supreme Court building that includes a number of historical lawgivers. The final chapter of the book, before the epilogue, is titled "Images of Muḥammad in literature, art, and music," and I haven't had time to read it, but it contains two images. The first is an example of hilye at the very beginning and the second, towards the end is a photo of the cover of the film The Message starring Anthony Quinn (as Muhammad's uncle). Quinn's photo, in costume, appears on the cover but like I said he isn't Muhammad. Indeed Muhammad isn't depicted in the film at all, and the text discussing it describes the clever techniques used by the film makers to pull that off. As a whole I think the Cambridge book reinforces the educational value of figurative images in context, but surprisingly not the context one might have imagined. It would be interesting to look at the text surrounding the two faceless images when time allows, but I think it is quite notable that they are faceless/formless. I might personally be willing to soften my opinion a bit towards inclusion of one or two images that are veiled or formless, because those images are quite educational when it comes to issue of aniconism ... much more so than the fringe traditions of flouting aniconism altogether. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 13:40, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

But that brings us back to the same problem. Nothing disparaging meant in this - simply pointing out the problem. (1) some people are looking at this article as a biography, albeit of someone who is a religious figure. (2a) some people are treating this as an article on religion. (2b) some people are treating handling images in this article as if the article were about depictions of Muhammad.

Using Point 1, what is relevant is

• portraying the person through (in order of importance/relevance) (a) photographs, (b) portraits, (c) depictions
• portraying relevant historical events through (in order of importance/relevance) (a) photographs, (b) portraits, (c) depictions

Using Point 2 (a or b), what is relevant is

• selecting depictions as represented/applicable to the religion or those who venerate Muhammad - or both (with suitable text to indicate which types of images are preferred by which sect of Islam (veiled, unveiled or none)).

That leaves the big stopping point we keep running into. Do we treat this as a biography, or a religious article?

IMO, Point 2 is a discussion for the "Depictions..." article and any such subsection that we are (above) considering placing back in this article - and this article should be treated as a biography. I'm beginning to suspect that the problem isn't interpretation of policy. The problem is differing camps on what this article is - a biography or a religious article. ROBERTMFROMLI | ^TK/_CN 21:13, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

With all due respect Robert you keep on bringing up this artificial distinction between biography and religion. This is a religious biography. Please have a look at the sources of this entry - the are scholars of the history Islam. "Biographical" information about virtually ancient religious figures is within the domain of the history of religion. It's a simple fact. The distinction is artificial. We do not treat all biographies the same either, based on some magical formula. We treat each subject matter as the mainstream reliable sources do. I've already given you the answer to the false dilemma you pose. Look at the sources we use for this entry and see what type of depictions they use, when they do use depictions, and start from there.Griswaldo (talk) 21:39, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps you misunderstood my post? The whole first section isn't an argument with you, it is simply fact. Various editors (not just me) think this article should be treated as a biography; that happens to be about a religious figure. Others (including you) do not. Thus, the point is, what you think isn't (yet) relevant to how we treat the images issue in the article. What consensus we come to or what policies we find that will make such a distinction is what ends up being relevant. Perhaps it's your POV on this - perhaps it is not. The point is, as long as there are two decent sized camps who wish to treat the images in the article differently, then solving the "images issue" isn't going to be possible - until concessions or a consensus or some showing of applicable policy takes place.

The last paragraph, starting with "IMO" is simply that - my opinion on the matter - just as you gave yours. I was not trying to start a debate. It was given as additional proof (in addition to others' postings on this and other pages) that your POV on this matter is not absolute or unchallenged. Nothing more or less. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | ^TK/_CN 21:53, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Robert my point is that you are neglecting how we should be dealing with this issue based on our policies and conventions. We should follow the mainstream sources. Is there a policy on how to write a biography? Once again, I am also treating this as a biography, but just like with all entries, biographies or not, I also recognize that we should follow reliable sources. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 22:07, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, (among others) IUP, which states "In general, images should depict the concepts described in the text of the article." - thus, I would posit, for historical events, images (photographs, depictions, etc) of those events should be used. I would further posit an image or three of the article's subject would be applicable as well. There are sections on historical events in the article. There are images related to those historical events currently in use. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | ^TK/_CN 22:13, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Also, MOS/Images is a guideline that covers such... which ironically is written with a blurb that (for this article, since it is not about depictions) seems to be against using images of "flame and veil" as I am pretty sure no one would reasonably assert that Muhammad's head was both veiled and enshrouded in flame. It also covers the "false" depictions vs "we have no photos" issue. "Consequently, images should look like what they are meant to illustrate, even if they are not provably authentic images." All we have are depictions. Muhammad's head did not look like a veiled flame. The article is not about "Depictions of Muhammad" (there is an article on that topic already). There are other sections in policies and guidelines that touch on this topic too - which is why I keep reiterating that all such need to be applied. Far better than to keep picking and choosing one policy or another. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | ^TK/_CN 22:20, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

You are surely aware that many of our images of Jesus feature a halo, a very similar artistic device. That's entirely traditional, and arguably representative of something that can be seen. --JN466 03:42, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, while (a) many don't have such, and (b) you can still see his face. The halo has no more of an effect than a hat, and even such images as those portray a depiction of what he looked like. OTOH, a "no face, just a flame and a white spot" or "just a flame head" or "veil and flame" are arguably not what he looked like. But that aside, I am not arguing for not using such pictures. I'm arguing that they all (including Jesus and other articles) should be balanced by policies and guidelines - including images of him in historical settings, a couple showing how he (not how a flame) was perceived by others, a couple of how through religion, he was perceived. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | ^TK/_CN 06:00, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the discussion of the sources. Someone did make the argument that other biographies might not be perfect comparisons for some reason or another. That is true, but it is still something to compre to. I would also compare it to biographies of other persons from the period. I think it quite likely that anyone from that period who is portaryed in any medium, would likely have those depictions in any modern biography. Most cultures, east and west, don't seem to have anything against figurative portrayals of persons and certainly wikipedia does not. Almost any picture does convey information and it does seem to me encyclopedic to include it for that reason (there is little need to so vastly value written information over pictoral). Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:19, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Of course there is if that's traditional, and I mean traditional in scholarly accounts of Muhammad not religious ones. If we included written information that is fringe in terms of how mainstream scholarship and mainstream reference sources deal with a specific subject that information would be removed. Why is visual information any different? If certain subjects are not known through visual information for whatever reason, then it is not up to us to unduely weight our entries on those subjects with visual information. This is why we need to look at other reference sources. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 20:49, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

I am the one who asked for the discussion of other sources but I see no reason to limit it to Mohmmedan biographies, to analogies the types of images used. It is true that pictures have not "traditionally" appeared in scholarly writing, in general, but that was often for technical and economic reasons (and perhaps to bias against pictures), which do not apply to us. Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:40, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

• FWIW, here are lists of illustrations from other books on Muhammad, searched for using "Muhammad in the title" and "List of illustrations/List of figures" as search arguments [3]:

• • [4] No images of Muhammad (Oxford University Press)
  • [5] Calligraphy only
  • [6] 21 images, none of Muhammad as far as I can see (images of the Quran and various mosques)

The Britannica online article on Muhammad has an image of the Kaaba, two images of mosques, and one of calligraphy. (Incidentally, the vast majority of secondary literature on Muhammad is written by Muslims, who would typically refrain from including images.) --JN466 03:15, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

• A book by Carl W. Ernst, "Following Muhammad – rethinking Islam in the contemporary world", is here; no images of Muhammad, but includes a discussion of such images (and their tolerance in Iran) on pages 184–186. Lots of calligraphy. --JN466 04:40, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps I misunderstood, but your second, third, and fifth source don't appear to be biographies of the Prophet, and your second has a figurative human illustration of Muhammad on the cover of the book. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:31, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

You're correct, and I overlooked the (veiled) cover image on the second. It's tedious to do in Google Books; getting an overview is probably easier in a book shop or library. Looking at title pages itself is not without interest [7][8], though it's a bit inconclusive as it doesn't tell us what's in the books. --JN466 14:45, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Black stone image

I removed the black stone image with the edit summary "Per WP:IUP and WP:DUE." It was restored by Nomoskedasticity with "Surely we would want to discuss removal of images, under current circumstances." Which is fair enough. The rationale is that the incident depicted is not referred to in the section, which makes it redundant. Discussion on this page includes

• I personally think this one is fine, if it were actually illustrating material in the text. It isn't, in fact the story of Muhammad moving the Black Stone is not even mentioned anywhere except for the cryptic reference in the image caption. nableezy - 19:00, 25 October 2011
• The one about showing the Black Stone episode may be a remnant of a time when the article had a description of that. It was removed as being unimportant, and we already have an article on that event. Amatulić 13:33, 27 October 2011
• I would genuinely be happy with a picture by picture proposal as this allows the weeding out of irrelevant works (kicks black stone again.) Tivanir2 17:55, 28 October 2011
• If historically relevant to Muhammad (as opposed to Islam or such), I'd support additional content to support the image. Otherwise, I'd support image removal. ROBERTMFROMLI 20:06, 3 November 2011
• I don't mind including it and it is another picture of him but if we are referencing a specific event we should at least have a line or two and a link if it is important enough to warrent a picture of the event in my mind. Tivanir2 20:11, 3 November 2011

So there is agreement it does not support the text. On that basis it should go. If after a discussion of different elements of the topic – particularly with regard to the relative importance assigned to the different elements by reliable sources – it is decided that scholarly reviews of the Prophet's life of this size, or reputable encyclopedia articles on him, tend to include a description of the black rock incident, then I'd favour adding a section on it and discussing whether an artist's impression of the event is WP:DUE. Presently it doesn't belong. May I move it out? --Anthonyhcole (talk) 10:33, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

• Fine by me as well per reasonings given above. The image is present in 6 other articles. --JN466 10:52, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps it would be best if people commenting said how they feel on the overall issue as well - as a strong supporter of removing all images of Muhammad here, it is hardly surprising it is "fine" by you. That goes for Anthony too. Johnbod (talk) 11:27, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

If I were as single-minded about it as you intimate, I would not have drawn attention to the presence of such images in the Cambridge Companion in the preceding section. I do feel we have too many figurative images; I'd be quite happy to have none here, as long as we have a link to the depictions article, because we have plenty there and in other articles; and if we have some here, I think they would be best housed in a section on depictions of Muhammad and the European reception section. --JN466 11:41, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Please see the above thread for a clarification of my position on images of Muhammad in this encyclopedia. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 11:48, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

• First, about the text. I personally feel the incident should be mentioned, in two or three lines, whether or not the picture is kept. If the picture is just removed we won't even have a link to Black Stone. Incidentally, that article gets 37k views per month, is illustrated by the same picture, and the talk page shows only one complaint (Jan 2011) since 2009, when it was moved to about 1/3 of the way through the article, below most people's first screen view but right next to the account of the incident. Before that there were about 3 complaints since 2006. That the incident was felt important enough in the 14th century to be one of only about ?12 scenes from the life illustrated in this manuscript is significant I think, and the hits our article gets suggest it remains significant. Personally I find the image unusually good as pure illustration of the incident by medieval standards, once one knows what is going on. Against it is that it is from one of the Jami' al-tawarikh manuscripts commissioned by its author Rashid-al-Din Hamadani, as is the first image showing Muhammad above. Note that there are two such manuscripts, one dated 1306 & one 1314 in Edinburgh (article here) with presumably one here from each, explaining the date discrepancy noted by someone above (1314 vs 1315 in our caption may be a calendar issue). These are absolutely key volumes in the general history of the Persian miniature (the JSTOR page explains this well) as well as the specific subject of illustrations showing Muhammad, but maybe two here is excessive. Personally I would keep it, as one ok with the status quo, but it may be the best candidate to go if we are looking for a reduction compromise. But then we should add text to cover the incident. Johnbod (talk) 11:22, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

• I notice that Amatulić believes a description of the incident was removed as being unimportant. The first case to be made is the case in favour of including a description of the incident. That will involve assessing whether reliable reviews of similar size to this article, or other reputable encyclopedias tend to mention the event. We can't rely on the assessment of individual editors here. In the meantime, may I remove it? --Anthonyhcole (talk) 11:43, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

• I'm trying to think if there is an incident in the life of Jesus that gets an equivalent nearly 10% of the views of the main bio that isn't mentioned at all in that bio. I would be surprised if there were. Our views seem a perfectly good way of assessing importance to our readers. You should let this section run for a few days - what's the rush? Johnbod (talk) 11:48, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

• I'm referring to the relevance of the story in the illustration to articles about Muhammad. Is it usual to relate that story in articles this size about Muhammad? Do reliable sources of this scope usually mention it? I don't know but that will need to be established if you are asserting its relevance to this article. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 17:31, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

• So am I, but the very high level of hits our article gets is also a measure of relevance. We should be careful to include Islamic sources too, as I'm sure you would agree. Johnbod (talk) 17:35, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

The stone is central to Islam. It's more of a focal point than Calvary is to Christianity. The relevance we need to determine is the relevance of this charming and enlightening anecdote to this topic, does it, the tale of the four-cornered blanket usually feature in articles of this size and scope? --Anthonyhcole (talk) 17:49, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

The story is only a small part of Black Stone, which is of interest as a central element of the Islamic faith. I don't think it's correct to infer that the article's page views are predominantly due to high interest in this particular story. --JN466 22:21, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

• What's the worry with removing it? No one is putting the image up for deletion, and it can be added back. IMO, the only serious argument for keeping images of Muhammad (that offend some people) in the entry is to increase it's educational value. Images that depict scenes that aren't described in the entry clearly have no such value.Griswaldo (talk) 11:55, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
• It's irrelevant, and doesn't belong here per WP:IUP. That may change once (a) the importance of the event has been established and consensus arrived at, and (b) a thoughtful, relevant mention has been added. I realise that may happen in a matter of hours or days, or it may never happen if, generally, it's not considered important enough to mention in most similar reliable sources. Right now, it's not compliant with policy. May I remove it until its relevance has been established? --Anthonyhcole (talk) 12:02, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

• Per WP:BRD it should now stay until discussion has been given a reasonable chance. Given the number of active sections here, & the exhaustion of many of the regulars after so many thousands of words in the last 2 weeks or more, that should be a good few days, not 3 hours. Johnbod (talk) 13:19, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

• A couple of days is fine. I've notified the regular editors here. Except one. (I just can't stand the noise.) --Anthonyhcole (talk) 15:14, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

• Sure we can wait a couple of days but let's be clear about something. WP:IUP is a policy and WP:BRD, while a great practice to live by when we can, is only an essay. No essay trumps policy, if there is a policy violation. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 16:03, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

I see two different ways that I'd like this resolved, and I don't greatly care which one people prefer. One would be to add in some context by mentioning the event itself. If we decide not to do that, I think it should be replaced with another image. I'm on an iPhone right now, so I can't really look for replacements, but I'll try to do that in the early afternoon EST. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 14:39, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, Blade. Can you please explain for me what is the reasoning behind your proposition that, if this picture turns out to be unsuitable, we should replace it with another image? Is it because you want to maintain the same number of Muhammad pictures, or the same number of pictures in general? And, in either case, what's the rationale there? --Anthonyhcole (talk) 15:38, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

More images in general; if the paragraph stays, then it should be an image of Muhammad, but if we remove it then just a related image would be fine. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい)

Actually, just so we're on the same page, per various policies, content needs to be relevant: i.e., related and important to the topic. Is there a particular part of the text that you believe needs an image to make it clearer? --Anthonyhcole (talk) 17:31, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

OK, I've had a chance to look at it from my regular computer screen, and now I can type normally. I think the best thing to do would be to move an existing image into the place where this one currently is; people have indicated we're a little calligraphy-heavy in spots, so we could perhaps stick one of those images there and balance it out a bit. I agree that if we remove the section on the black stone that this image should go as well (although it could certainly fit in Depictions of Muhammad, that would be a matter for the talkpage there). The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 20:25, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

• As far as image by image discussion goes, I would note that there are probably too many images in this article (26 at last count), so an overall reduction may be warranted. Given that this incident is not currently covered in prose, this was an image I had figured could be removed. There is also a ridiculous number of calligraphic images that also need to be cut back. If we are not considering overall reduction/balance, and it is felt this image is unnecessary, I would like to see it replaced with another depiction. Resolute 14:45, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

• Why's that? --Anthonyhcole (talk) 15:42, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

• Balance of the debate. As I have stated on both your talk page and here, I favour an overall reduction of images. That would, one would expect, include a depiction. But I don't want to see a debate that simply removes this image, then another debate about too many images that attempts to axe another depiction. Resolute 16:02, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

• I'm only trying to impose relevance here. My precise agenda, as you know (but I'm open to persuasion) is to have two very relevant and, incidentally, offensive images of Muhammad in the Western reception section, and one (or two, including one natural, if two looks OK) images of Muhammad in the Images section, and one or two images of Muhammad as flame or veiled elsewhere. But I haven't arrived at this number of depictions arbitrarily, it's the outcome of addressing the text. The above plan has the inestimable advantage over the present situation in that it only places natural depictions where they are deeply relevant, where they don't just illustrate what's in the text, but exemplify it.

My objection to the present image use, and the objection of every person on this page with an objection, isn't that it offends Muslims, it is that it offends Muslims gratuitously, they're mere artists impressions, mostly misleading in terms of appearance and dress, of virtually no didactic value. I'm proposing an alternative that, sadly, will still offend some, but for a justifiable, compelling educational reason. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 17:15, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

• I trust your intentions, but not those of a couple others. Certainly, if a better depiction that is more relevant to the text - or one for which the image caption can be of educational use - is available, I readily support such a replacement. Resolute 23:46, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Agree with Johnbod. I've added a paragraph on the Black Stone, and moved the image to there. Tom Harrison ^Talk 14:55, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Tom. That looks good. I think the reference link in the caption is broken. Is it necessary, or will the reference cited in the text cover it? Could you please justify the addition of that text, in terms of importance? Only, it's been mentioned that this story was removed in the past because it is unimportant. Is this story usually included in scholarly or encyclopedia articles about Muhammad? I'm sure you'll understand I have a reasonable concern that that text has gone into this article in order to justify the insertion of a picture, rather than based on its own relevance. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 15:29, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

I am still good with removal even reading the black stones article directly I could see no reason to keep the entire section as more than a few lines in the life of muhammad. So as long as no one comes up with a good reason to keep it (I may have overlooked something - it happens) then I support removal of the picture in question. Tivanir2 (talk) 16:54, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

I have been asked to comment, but after reviewing the text and the discussion here I don't have strong views either way. I am only pleased that it is being discussed in a reasonable manner (surely due in part to the way Anthony began this thread). Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:21, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

I agree, it is a nice to see a bit of rationality that is absent elsewhere. As for the image, it seems that when this was up foe debate earlier this year, the general tone was that it was acceptable if there was mention of it in the article. I tend to agree with that sentiment. Tarc (talk) 17:33, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Anthonyhcole asked me to comment (I haven't had time to follow the intricacies of the wider debate recently). I'm in agreement with the majority above: if it's not covered in the article, we don't need a picture. Actually, I would go farther and say that if we do include it, but only do so at the level of 1 or two sentences, then it still needs to go, as it is not common practice to try to illustrate every point in the text. Plus, I'm with the group that says that the overall number of images (both figurative and non-) is too high. For me, any time an article ever has a substantive amount of text squeezed between two images (or an image on one side and an infobox on the other), then the article has too many images. Heck, I don't even think it's appropriate to have running images all the way down one side. As to whether or not the story itself belongs in the article and to what degree, I must simple bow out and say that I don't have the knowledge or the time to do the research necessary to make an informed comment on the point. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:45, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Given the religious opposition to pictures, it seems as likely that in the past the incident was declared unimportant to justify removing the picture. Per Black stone in comparable works below, there are any number of comparably good articles this length that could be written on Muhammad. I don't think deciding what to include should be driven by whether or not that will lead to a picture of Muhammad. It seems to me we should include material and pictures or not on the same basis we would in Julius Caesar. Including pictures of Muhammad in the article about Muhammad needs no greater justification than including pictures anywhere else, though neither should we add pictures (here or anywhere) only to annoy people. The picture of Mount Uhud seems of little value. I don't see how it could increase the reader's understanding enough to justify its space. Likewise the picture of the Quran, and the multiple calligraphic representations. Any thoughts on those? The reference seems to work now; thanks to whoever fixed it. Tom Harrison ^Talk 01:42, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

The text was removed by AAA765 (talk · contribs) in this major cleanup back in 2008, in response to a {{too long}} tag but they retained the image. So the image has been in article for three years without any relevance whatever. All the images you mention, are related to the topic but most, like most of the depictions of Muhammad, have no real educational value. But they do make the article look nice. I disagree with the removal of the landscapes, though. They, at least, tell us something about the actual topography and scale of the landscape in which the events described took place. I've restored them but am more than willing to discuss their relevance. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 02:54, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Sorry so long... very busy next few days, so, here's all my thoughts at once. Sure you all will work this out in the meantime

On to the image at hand and the section removed. Here's my feelings. Some or all of which seem to be feelings in part by one or more. Some might not be. The text that is "missing" seems like a relevant event that should be in the article. As for the image, without the text, since it is a depiction of a historical event, I do not think it relevant to the article and should be removed. With the text, I'd like to see it stay, but it isn't a strong feeling.

As for the removal reasons (too long): I personally (various of your opinions may vary) think that certain articles (such as Thomas Jefferson) should not be constrained by such. When a full fledged "sub-article" can be created, great... summarize and jump-link. But if not, on such an important figure as Jefferson, lobotomizing an article because of a guideline thatsuggests the article may be too long seems silly. Now, back to the topic at hand, now that my thoughts (and bias on the article length issue) are known. This article is about a very very important religious figure, and one of the most important religious figures in Islam. With my thoughts known on lobotomizing an article of someone important simply because of some suggestion in a guideline, I am guessing everyone can theorize I am for reinstating that section, as well as any other information of suitable historical importance that has been removed. IF the content is enough for a sub-article, then a "jump-link" to that before a short summary is great - if not, that's still no reason for not including any important historical event, even if it means a bit more work for all of us in reorganizing the article to flow a little better (currently engaged in just such an effort on another article, piece by piece - we just finished the lead and are moving on).

Which brings us back to the image (to summarize): if we don't reinstate the text, I say delete it. It's not a depiction of (just) Muhammad - it is a depiction of a historical event with no relevant text to support its inclusion. If we doreinstate the text, I'd be for leaving the image - but not strongly so. In that respect, for those who are more knowledgeable on the topic than my memory of my studies from years ago, I'd leave that to your judgement to determine how important the historical event is. Inotherwords, let's say it was a biography of Jefferson; I'd fully expect there not to be a picture of him eating breakfast by himself on a regular morning, even if there was a blurb about "Jefferson ate breakfast in the morning - he enjoyed (whatever) with each such meal". Not a big deal, don't need an image of it. So, I'd say if you all deem the event is of historical importance, we should leave the image (with text reinstated), if of minorimportance and the text is reinstated, image, no image, whatever - I've got no real feelings either way. What's sad is I actually extensively studied this stuff - and then my computer and other careers took off and I've let all of that lapse. :-/ Best, ROBERTMFROMLI |^TK/_CN 06:27, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Anthony posits that the picture was made irrelevant by the removal of the text three years ago. I don't think that is the only way to look at this. I think it just as likely the editors thought the incident relevant and decided to represent it pictorially instead of in writing. Perhaps, they should have left in a sentence about it, too. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:36, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Alas, IUP and MOS\Images indicate requirements that images are relevant to the article topic or the text. In this case, the article topic is Muhammad and not "The Black Stone", thus making depictions of Muhammad (that fit within the rest of the policies and guidelines) relevant by nature of what they depict. I'm still firmly of the opinion that an image of a historical event isn't relevant to an article not about that event unless that event (for relevant reasons) is mentioned in sufficient detail to allow an image. Inotherwords, a single sentence (to me) does not create a reason - and no text on the historical event creates to relevant reasons for including the image in an article that isn't really about the event itself. But that's my interpretation of this issue. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | ^TK/_CN 18:39, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

I did not understand this. In a biography, if a picture is of the person, does it somehow become irrelevant because it also depicts an event? Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:32, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

My opinion would be that the picture is of a historical event, and happens to include the person (and possibly other people). Thus, the key element of the picture is that it is of a historical event - with the "relationship" element being that the person happens to be in it. Inotherwords, each picture has a point of most significance/relevance - in this case, the historical event depicted. Per IUP and MOS\Images, whatever is the primary depiction factor should be relevant to either (a) the article, or (b) the section. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | ^TK/_CN 22:28, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Interesting, but I am having a hard time thinking the artist painted that event (or anyone would care), if not for the importance of the central character, he chose to portray in his picture. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:42, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Doesn't matter why they painted it - it matters what it is. It is a picture of a historical event that happens to have Muhammad in it (central figure or not). Inotherwords, it's not "here's a picture of Muhammad" (that was not the artist's intent). It is instead "here's a picture of a historical event that centers around Muhammad". And alas, policy and guidelines constrain such use (and I think my understanding of it is pretty accurate - as others seem to agree). Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | ^TK/_CN 23:23, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Black stone in comparable works

I've been rooting around on the web, & I must say have found plenty of accounts of the early life that are either a good deal longer or shorter than ours, but none really comparable in length. I've noticed there is very little consistency, even in considerably longer accounts. Incidents like Bahira (who we mention; his article gets only 2K hits per month) and his uncle's well (which we don't seem to cover anywhere that I can see) are either given at some length or omitted completely, and the accounts of the Mi'raj are wildly variable in length and completeness. On the whole, as in this article, the space devoted even in full length biographies to the first 40 years of his life is remarkably little (there are exceptions). There is no consistent attitude to what is admittedly a difficult range of source material, with few universally accepted elements and some that even few modern Muslim scholars seem to regard as not likely to be true. So I think this comparison will be unlikely to produce a clear result. On the whole, we seem to cover his first 40 years pretty rapidly, & I would lean in favour of some additions. Johnbod (talk) 20:58, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Encyclopedia Britannica includes the event in the entry on "Muhammad." The Cambridge Companion to Muhammad doesn't mention it. Brill's Encyclopedia of Islam doesn't mention it in their "Muhammad" entry. Britannica is closest to us in type, and in size, but it's odd that the other sources, which treat much more information about Muhammad, don't include the event.Griswaldo (talk) 21:16, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Actually the Encyclopedia of Islam may be referring to the story when it says, "Equally little confidence is to be placed in the story of the part said to have been played by Muḥammad in rebuilding the Kaʿba," which would support John's point about scholars questioning the veracity of the story. If that is the case I wonder if we ought to include it here.Griswaldo (talk) 21:24, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

I think you'll find the Bahira story is equally questioned by some, and often omitted. As I say, there seems no unanimity in what is included - a striking contrast to the early life of Jesus, where a few incidents are in the gospels, and other stories were stamped on hard relatively early on, and excluded from the main tradition, only surviving in things like the Protevangelium of James. Johnbod (talk) 23:58, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

If Britannica mentions it that's good enough for me. It's a delightful story that, apocryphal or not, is an important enough element of the tradition for mention in an encyclopedia, so I have no problem with us mentioning it.

Now we need to seriously address the question of educational value. Leaving aside the fact that we happen to have such an image at hand (that's no argument for inclusion), that images make articles more readable (there is no shortage of images) that this image is a fine representation of the art of this era or that tradition (this is not an article or section on art, or depictions of Muhammad), does this artist's impression increase the reader's understanding of this event enough to justify the limited space it takes up? How does it add to the reader's understanding of the event? Does it mislead the reader?

Please understand I'm not on a campaign of stripping images of Muhammad out of this article. I want to ensure all image use here is relevant and as educationally potent as possible. I argue (above) there are much more useful, educational and relevant images of Muhammad that deserve inclusion here. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 01:19, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

General discussion of present image use

Kufic script, 8th or 9th century Quran

There's four fewer pictures: an open Quran, redundant calligraphy, and two landscapes that might be anywhere.[9] Please restore any that should be kept. Tom Harrison ^Talk 01:54, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

I restored the landscapes, per thread above this. I'm unsure about the calligraphy and Koran. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 02:54, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

The calligraphy is useful, as that is how Muhammad's name is written in full. I would consider the Quran image one of the most essential images in the article (even given that we have an image of a page in the Quran further down), and where it was it related to the text. Restored. --JN466 03:10, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

I think the name calligraphy, a strong & certainly key image, could go lower down the page, where there are actually sparsely illustrated stretches. I didn't think that half-open Quran image was optimal. Personally I'd go for a single early Kufic page at this point (example shown). Johnbod (talk) 03:20, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

I've redistributed the navigation templates on the right-hand side, putting each into the section it relates to; they are no longer bunched up the way they were. I've deleted one such navigation template: the one on wives of Muhammad. All the wives are listed in the infobox, so there is no loss of information. I've moved some images as well, always keeping in mind that they should relate to the content of the relevant sections. For example, the image of the Medina mosque containing his tomb was at the beginning of the Life section, i.e. the section on Mecca; I've moved it to the section covering his death. The images are now better distributed. --JN466 04:17, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

I agree the Kufic page would be a nice image to have, but I would suggest that a contemporary image of the Quran is essential. The Quran has a more immediate significance to Muhammad and contemporary Islam than the Bible has to Jesus and contemporary Christianity. Muhammad "is" the Quran in a way that would not apply to Jesus and the New Testament; partly because it's his own words, rather than a collection of third-party accounts. How about adding the Kufic image where the Quran image is now, and moving the Quran image to the legacy section? --JN466 04:36, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

I noticed that there are numerous images of the Prophet Muhammad in the article Mahomet on fr.wikipedia.org. Did somebody suggest otherwise? Personally, if images are to be chosen, I would hope that at least one could be of the Night Journey through the Seven Heavens on the mythical steed Buraq, such as this veiled one File:Miraj_by_Sultan_Muhammad.jpg, a featured image on the Turkish wikipedia, used in the French article and numerous other articles. (There is also an unveiled image File:Muhammad_1514.jpg from the Metropolitan Museum of Art.) There are plenty of sources that describe these images. which were frequently fontispieces in illuminated manuscripts. The section on "Religious painting in the Islamic period" by historian of Islamic art Ernst J. Grube in the book Peerless Images: Persian Painting and its Sources (Yale University Press) contains a number of descriptions of several of the miniatures in the Bibliothèque Nationale de France. There are a large number of images available on their website.[10] Here is one of the images there from a whole volume illustrating the Night Journey. [11] Mathsci (talk) 07:03, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

I have uploaded that last image here File:Miraj-BNF-1436.jpg. It is image 20 on the online guided tour of the BNF exhibition above. There a French lady can be heard discussing the miniature at great length. Mathsci (talk) 07:27, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Here are other plates from the same manuscript: [12][13][14][15][16][17][18][19][20][21][22][23][24][25][26][27][28][29][30][31][32][33][34][35][36][37][38][39][40][41]. Mathsci (talk) 08:43, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Paintings and sources focused on them do exist, but let's not lose sight of the big picture. See e.g. [42] / [43], also [44] / [45] --JN466 11:56, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Above Jayen466 has suggested using "Islam for dummies" as a source while at the same time dismissing Ernst J. Grube, the eminent historian of Islamic art. That seems contrary to wikipedia policy on secondary sources. Could he please explain what is going on? Mathsci (talk) 21:52, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Islam for Dummies, despite the engaging title, is published by John Wiley & Sons, which is a scientific publisher, and written by Malcolm Clark, a professor of religion (A.B., Harvard College; B.D., M.A., Ph.D., Yale Divinity School; Post-doctoral study at Hebrew University, Israel Biblical Studies, Islam, Religion and Gender, American Religion). It is a best-seller and required reading for American army officers—a good general source that gives a useful overview to inform our talk page discussion. I don't think I suggested citing it for anything, though it clearly meets RS. The other source I linked to is by Kees Wagtendonk, from Amsterdam University, and one of the foremost European experts on Islam. It is entirely proper for historians of art to be interested in depictions of Muhammad. It's a notable topic in its own right. But none of these historians of art would argue that these images reflect the Islamic mainstream. They are all aware that such images are (comparatively) rare, and that the Islamic tradition is generally word-based, with calligraphy as its main artistic medium of visual expression. Grube himself, in the book you mentioned, states: "Yet for many reasons, a fully developed Muslim iconography – in the sense that the West would understand it – never emerged in Islamic culture, although representations of Muhammad comprise a special category of Muslim religious painting that developed within the framework of Islamic art ... And however unexpectedly the image may appear, there are also illustrated Muslim texts that deal specifically with the life of the Prophet and, even more astonishingly, with the metaphysical and highly mysterious mi'raj, the journey made by the Prophet during the course of just one night through all the Heavens and into Hell ... Islam, by contrast, never officially adopted a figural religious iconography; indeed, the very lawfulness of images was hotly debated in the early Islamic centuries. In mosques there are no cycles of paintings illustrating the prophet's life and deeds comparable to those of the life of Christ or the saints in Christian churches or, for that matter, the life of the Buddha in Buddhist temples ..." (p. 133). It's iconic, not unexpected images that we are interested in in a high-level article like this, just as we use iconic images in the articles on other religious founders. --JN466 23:30, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

One interesting thing about the night flight image uploaded and the sources Jayen mentions, is that the image appears to be Ottoman (likely Sunni audience) and not Persian or Moghul. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:48, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

If you mean the BnF ones Mathsci links above, In fact the MS is Persian/Afghan, Herat 1436 [46], but yes Sunni (the Persian rulers were Sunni at this period & until after 1502). There are plenty of Ottoman and Sunni illustrated Mi'raj manuscripts. Johnbod (talk) 16:43, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I saw that it was from Harat but I thought that Tamerlane's empire was Turkish, although he did rule over Persia, and I was noting that the illustration was captioned in Turk (and Arabic) and thus, not clearly directed at Persians. And perhaps I misunderstood that some were saying, that images were limited to Persian Shias or to the later Mogul Empire (1526).Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:02, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

It is in Turkish/Uighur, Arabic & also Persian, reflecting the mix of languages used in the Timurid courts. There is indeed a common misconception limiting such images to Shia use. In fact surviving historic images - Persian and Turkish mainly, are more often from a Sunni context, though modern images of Muhammad are nearly all Shia. Ottoman ones are more common than Mughal - but both are Sunni dynasties with few Shias at court. Johnbod (talk) 17:56, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. If the captions on the night journey photograph include languages other than those listed, when it was uploaded, would you be willing to clarify the description? Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:32, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Done, it should be on Commons though. Johnbod (talk) 18:51, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

If I may make a suggestion on the picture of the koran. Instead can we find an actually closed koran with the front script shown? From the view on the open one you can't make anything out and it looks like it could be any book in existence. Tivanir2 (talk) 17:45, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

If you do a Google Image search for Quran, you'll find it's customarily depicted with its pages open. It's the pages that show Muhammad's words, not the cover. --JN466 00:39, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

It might be a good idea to get a picture of one from (at the very least) a better angle. The one in the article has a somewhat off-kilter perspective; if we want a picture of the koran open, we could at least try to get a shot of it from straight above or standing directly in front of it. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 16:01, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

This page is strange

As far as I see, all the images of other articles (Jesus, Buddha, Confucius, etc) in the info box are paintings or photos. This article is the only article on wikipedia that presents just a written name as the infobox image. 203.81.67.182 (talk) 16:35, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

It's because that is the most common visual representation of Muhammad, and WP should try to use such a depiction in the infobox (just like how we prefer infobox pictures of sports stars to have them either playing or at least in uniform, when we can get them). There are paintings of Muhammad's body further down in the article. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:14, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree, you should also add a picture of Muhammad in the infobox, the same way you did for Jesus, Buddha, etc... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.176.99.42 (talk) 22:17, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Using the same logic, one could say that the most common visual representation of anyone is their name in writing, rather than a picture. In fact, it is patently clear Muhammad is treated as a special case here, so as not to offend Muslims. ðarkuncoll 15:13, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Actually, it's not at all for that reason. If we didn't want to offend Muslims, we wouldn't include the Prophet's picture anywhere in the article, but, of course, we do. We get people commenting here every few days telling us that we have to remove the pictures of Muhammad because they are false and not allowed, and we tell them every time that we don't follow their rules. No Muslim is going to say "Well, it's okay to use the image, so long as its not the lead image of the article". They either accept or reject images of Muhammad entirely. The image in the infobox is not Muhammad's name in writing. It's the image you would see of Muhammad if he were depicted in art. It's not like it's just "Muhammad" in 12 point Times. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:33, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

That argument is just plain silly all the current "image does is prove you can write Mohamed in calligraphy and make it look stylized and it is clearly an unsuccessful attempt to appease the religious fanatics, a proper image was in that box for years, there is no credible reason other than appeasement that it has been changed. This place used to be proud to resist censorship, not ant more — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.178.163.174 (talk) 16:58, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Other historical figures get an artistic depiction of them. So does Muhammad; the artistic depiction is most commonly rendered in calligraphy, so we use an example of the most common artistic style. ~Amatulić (talk) 17:13, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Given that both sides of the argument are offended by the current article's content, I believe we have reached a fair and balanced approach. Singularity42 (talk) 17:07, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Good way to look at it. Everybody gets equal treatment! ~Amatulić (talk) 17:13, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

The most common "image" or representation of Muhammad in the world today is the calligraphy version, so I see no problem in using that at the top of the article. Note also that the God article has no image at the top, even though many suitable, classic images exist, some of which are used in the article. Rklawton (talk) 17:15, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. And I think the article reflects a well thought out compromise on the issue. One the one hand, Wikipedia is not censored and how Muhammad has been depicted historically is of encylopedic value. On the other hand, there is no policy that a historical painting of the subject should be at the top of the page in the Infobox, and the most common modern representation of the subject is the version currently in the Infobox. Singularity42 (talk) 17:25, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

It's not an artistic depiction it's just written words in a foreign language , it is still just written words even if added to paintings often. By the above logic all info-boxes should not be photographs but copies of the written word that have been published in newspapers as these are most common way of representing the subject. It's amazing how the need to appease overrules common scene in this PC world — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.178.163.174 (talk) 17:48, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

You're not understanding. It's not "added to paintings." It is the painting most commonly used for Muhammad. If you took all of the artistic renderings of Muhammad in the world, and counted them, you'd find (warning: completely made-up statistic coming) that 99% of them look like our infobox, and well less than 1% like the images farther down the page. As a good comparison: the picture on Jesus is absolutely not what he actually looked like (the image is too European, and, of course, he didn't actually walk around with a halo shining behind him). Nonetheless, its a very good representative of how Jesus is normally depicted in art. And, again, your PC argument fails miserably, because if we really were being "PC" (which, btw, is considered an offensive term by many) then we wouldn't have any pictures of Muhammad in the article. In any event, this issue has a very strong consensus, so your desire to replace it with a image is about as likely to succeed as the desire of others to remove all of the images in the article. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:55, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

"Added to paintings" "is the painting" whatever, it is still just a word in a foreign language and in that case has no artistic element, it's just type not art so your comparisons to the Jesus article are completely irrelevant, no misunderstanding on my part, just a reply that willfully ignores the issue and facts of the matter. and I am afraid my PC arguments do add up as the format of the article would not have been changed if there was a desire to appease and in doing so finding a PC compromise and further just because "In any event, this issue has a very strong consensus, so your desire to replace it with a image is about as likely to succeed as the desire of others to remove all of the images in the article." does not meed I should be dissuaded from raising an issue your post does attempt to do this and is not really in the spirit of a reasonable discussion. If you must reply please address the isues raised rather than willfuly ignore the issue posted about just to get the last word — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.178.169.30 (talk) 03:54, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

And I have to say comments like "wrong again" in the page history section are immature and not constructive is there not a basic civility code in force in this place to stop posts like that? can I respond by saying grow up? or does that make me ass bad as the poster of the imature comment? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.178.169.30 (talk) 04:09, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

The issue is that you're wrong. And, no, saying that is in no way a violation of WP:CIVIL. It's pointing out that you are still misunderstanding the image. It's not just a word in another language. It is a very ornate and specialized calligraphic representation of that word (that is, if you simply looked in a normal copy of the Qu'ran, that is not how it would look). My point on the consensus issue was perhaps a bit strong, but I guess what I'm trying to say is that you're going to need an extraordinarily strong argument to reverse a very well held consensus than just saying that we're "PC". In any event, I don't think I have anything else to add unless you have some new evidence or line of argument. Qwyrxian (talk) 05:04, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Actually I am not wrong and the manner in which you put "wrong again" (hidden in the page history) was very much uncivil and immature, if you have a point here is the place to put it. I as I have said above "all the current image does is prove you can write Mohamed in calligraphy and make it look stylized" can you not see this? it is still not artwork just text again no mistake of the nature of the image (why is there a need to claim I misunderstand the image?) (please can you let that sink in your brain before further comment), and again and again you ignore the issue being raised use logical fallacies like straw man and contribute nothing to the argument except show a need to get the last word, I'll say again to try and communicate to you If you must reply please address the issues raised rather than willfully ignore the issue posted about just to get the last word. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.9.235 (talk) 12:03, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

the latest coment inj the page history is "sigh" how is that a constructive comment? that is clearly uncivil and immature, i'll say again is there not a basic civility code in force in this place to stop posts like that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.9.235 (talk) 12:07, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

The arguments concerning popularity of usage are specious. Otherwise, for example, Jesus would be represented with the ☧ symbol, rather than a picture. Artistic representations of Jesus are certainly common, but the ☧ (chi rho) symbol is far more common, considering its usage on coins, etc. ðarkuncoll 16:23, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

When most Christian artists go about making a painting of Jesus, they paint the current European, haloed image. They do not paint the chi-rho symbol. When most Budhist artists go about making a painting of Buddah, they usually paint the sitting cross-legged, meditating image. They do not paint a version of the name "Buddah". When most Muslim artists go about making a painting of Muhammad, they usually paint an artistic, caligriphay version of his name. It is the most common image that representes the subject. Singularity42 (talk) 22:27, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

No, I'm afraid you're wrong. The ☧ symbol has been used far more often to represent Jesus than any picture of him. It has been used on untold thousands, perhaps millions, of coins, for example. You are making artificial distinctions in order to justify the current position, rather than looking at all the evidence. ðarkuncoll 23:41, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Where do you get that info, exactly? Where is that evidence of the symbol being used more than the image? You kind of have to back statements like that up on Wikipedia. —Digital Jedi Master (talk) 01:23, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

That is just stylized writing not art, therefore the creators are not artists just people writing, my doctors handwriting would not normally be considered art a new definition of art applicable to only Muslims has been created here in order to appease in this special case . furtherer the current image does not even show a painting, no artist is listed in the image file, no original work seems to exist in a gallery or collection. it is not a reproduced work of art.

To TharkunColl: Interestingly, ten years ago, I would have recognized Jesus by one of the stylized images long before I recognized him by the symbol. I suspect for those who would recognize Muhammad by either, the symbol would be recognized more than largely varying artists interpretations. Just my opinion though. ROBERTMFROMLI | ^TK/_CN 23:56, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Maybe a little history might help here. People who joined up in the last couple years might not realize this, but a lot of us had to fight for years to get any pictures of Muhammad displayed. It was a long, hard argument, but we did finally win. Before that, the consensus was to not display pictures, and anyone adding them would be reverted as quickly as people removing them now.

So when the consensus was finally changed, it ended up being something of a compromise that the images would be added, but kept "below the fold", so to speak. It may well have been an unspoken compromise, but I think everyone was basically tired of fighting at that point. So none of us pro-image folks really kept fighting to have the images higher up, because we'd won on the main issue.

It's not ideal, and I agree with the original poster that an image should be at the top of the page, just like for anyone else. But if one side got everything they wanted, it wouldn't be a compromise; it's only a compromise once everyone's unhappy.—Chowbok ☠ 18:29, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

I definitely agree it is not ideal. We should never be compromising core principles/tenets of Wikipedia. Either they get changed, or they get unilaterally and indisciminately applied. At least that's my opinion. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | ^TK/_CN 20:32, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Chowbok that's not a history I have witnessed, the image of Mohammed was in that infobox for years and the core principle of no censorship was observed. the religionists were correctly ignored. It does not make sense to change wikipedia's core principles to appease religionists just because it's perceived as easier. All the current situation shows is that a special case has been made, it looks wrong, is inconsistent and no amount of false reasoning (as witnessed above) will change this — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.178.160.10 (talk) 21:13, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

We're not say "how is Muhammad represented". The question is, as an image, as art, as a visual medium, how is Muhammad represented, and the answer is, "As a special form of calligraphy". If you went looking for actual images of Muhammad, you'd find, as far as I can tell based on having looked at this and related pages, less than 100 in the world. Total. However, you would find hundreds of thousands, if not more, of stylized, specially formatted, calligraphic representations of Muhammad. Let me draw an analogy: the company IBM, for its trademark/logo, uses a special calligraphic representation of the letters IBM (see File:IBM logo.svg). That's the image we use in the infobox of IBM, because that's the image that the company uses to represent themselves. We don't pick out a picture of their corporate headquarters, or use the original logo (see File:Original IBM Logo.png) just because it's more of a "picture", or anything else. Of course, there is no such thing as an "official" picture of Muhammad (or, really, most people except for maybe some politicians). But there is an image that represents, by a majority by a super-majority almost 100% of the time. I also argue that this is exactly like the fact that we use a European-looking Jesus in Jesus, rather than one that is "historically accurate". Now, I could be wrong, so go ahead and start up an RfC or some other similar form of dispute resolution. And I apologize if my words have been blunt, but to me changing the infobox image to a non-calligraphic painting of Muhammad would actually be a violation of Wikipedia core policies, not the other way areound as IP has presented it; this just seems blindingly obvious to me, which is why my words have been strong. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:13, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

That figure of 100 is complete nonsense - there are many more than that, old and modern, and thousands if you include images that have a veiled face, some probably added to an originally depicted face. Johnbod (talk) 23:18, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Now, THAT makes perfect sense. As indicated above, I can buy into it wholeheartedly. And in following the examples we used, I betcha that if I lined up 100 images of Jesus, they'd all look relatively the same (minus some small amount of artistic license) - but if I lined up 100 images of Muhammad, they'd all look very different (as this very article demonstrates). Also, as Muhammad is, to a larger extent, a topic that is discussed (etc) largely by those of the Islamic faith (which is quite large in numbers), I could easily see a calligraphic representation as being the most prevalent. In such case, I think Qwyrxian has hit the head right on the nail - using something other than such a representation would be against policies and guidelines. So, if that is the reasoning applied to choosing the infobox image, I'm all for leaving it. If that isn't the reason, but is still a valid reason, then I am still all for leaving it. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | ^TK/_CN 02:50, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Moore false reasoning the IBM logo is made to be EXACTLY the same and reproduceable many times it's not intended that people construct the IBM Logo by hand, writing isn't like that, more false reasoning to justify the special treatment given to this case, again Qwyrxian words have not been blunt but childish and immature a big difference that most people could see and no matter how much Qwyrxian ignores that fact and calls his behavior something else it still remains uncivil. and unjustifiable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.29.107.64 (talk) 22:39, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

You're the only one being uncivil in this thread.—Chowbok ☠ 03:24, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't know how you can construct that comment from what has been posted above, it's just that certain people with an agenda do not like being presented with the facts. It wasn't me who posted "sigh" but you choose not to see that because you do not like the facts I state — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.29.224.56 (talk) 21:32, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Enough of the uncivil remarks. Your original topic has been answered to, you have no reason to comment further, you just seem to be attacking people now. --Nutthida (talk) 00:36, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I actually agree with you and not Qwyrxian on the main issue. That doesn't change the fact that Qwyrxian has been exceedingly patient and courteous, and you have frequently been rude and accusing him of bad faith.—Chowbok ☠ 03:12, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

There was no uncivil remarks coming from me I did not put "Sigh" If I have been blunt well I guess i thought that it was normal around here or is it that there one rule for people who agree with you and another for those that do not? Guess so given that post. you actually do not comment on the issues and you just seem to be attacking people now and your post is hyporcritical. The actual fact is that the origional topic has not been answered far from it infact. there is no credible reason other than apeasement of religionists that a proper image should be shown in the infobox. as for "Qwyrxian has been exceedingly patient and courteous" how does that square with the "sigh" post selective reading does seem to be at play here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.31.64.122 (talk) 17:01, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry that you felt that my "sigh" was uncivil. In my past experience, I've never had anyone take a term of that nature as uncivil. I don't understand why it bothers you. It certainly wasn't attacking you in any way. If you want to pursue my remarks further, you should probably do so at WP:WQA, which is our usual forum for discussing issues of incivility; in fairness, you should know that if you do so, your own behavior can come under scrutiny. If you want to pursue the actual issue of the image further, since there seems to be a general consensus supporting the current image, you'll need to pursue dispute resolution. Qwyrxian (talk) 08:54, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

And besides, the image discussion page is thataway → Talk:Muhammad/images.

~Amatulić (talk) 15:57, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

I really don't see how "sigh" could be interpreted any other way but an uncivil remark, I can not see another point to be made from this remark and I have to say that after the amounts of posts on this page it's a bit late to show a redirect to another page. there may be a general consensus supporting the current image amongst religionists and those guided by appeasement rather than wikipedia's core values but that isn't actually a genuine consensus — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.31.89.148 (talk) 16:43, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

What is "genuine" consensus, in your opinion? One that agrees with your viewpoint? This issue has been discussed to death repeatedly. I appreciate that you may be new to the conversation, but this is not a new or novel question. If I may be very frank, I do not anticipate that you or anyone else commenting here has anything new to add to the discussion -- thus, the "sigh". – Luna Santin (talk) 21:59, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Furthermore, characterizing those to disagree with you as "religionists" or "guided by appeasement" is not only false, but insulting and offensive; and a gross violation of Wikipedia's core Wikipedia:Civility policy as well as the guideline Wikipedia:Assume good faith. I have rarely seen a clearer case of the pot calling the kettle black.

Contrary to your assertion without an accompanying rationale, the presentation of the lead image in this article does represent Wikipedia's core values, as others have repeatedly explained above and in the talk page archives. ~Amatulić (talk) 22:17, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Actually the only reason to have no real image is either a religionist reason or to appease religionists stating that fact is not a violation it's just stating a fact weather you like it or not, most likely you are only getting wound up because I state the truth and you don't like it so are now thyrowing toys out of pram and accusing me of "pot calling kettle black" in page history, thats extremely childish immature and unquestionably uncivil, no matter how upset you get with me stating the facts it happens to be the truth nether the less. So one side of the argument is allowed to be "blunt" as they put it but the other isn't even allowed to state their view by your childish rules, if I may be frank even thank (although only people of other opinion are allowed to do this by your terms) if you think the issue has been discussed and resolved why are you not just ignoring my posts? and It was not you who put the "sigh" remark so why try and justify it? it remains unconstructive. your post does nothing but attack me and even if i'm pott calling kettle black (as you so childishly put it) this is only as a response to posts like yours. The stupid thing is I had exepted User:Qwyrxian's explanation that if I wanted to discuss it further I should work out how to use dispute resolution, that is a reasonable comment. you post is just inflamatory, you have no constructive comment to make so why do you bother? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.178.169.96 (talk) 21:32, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I (and I am sure others) are of the camp/opinion of "I don't care what your or anyone elses or even my personal beliefs are - this is policy. We follow policy or... we follow policy. Period." Thus, personally, if I thought there was any validity to your claim, I'd be screaming bloody hell in this discussion (or more likely, politely point it out). But I do not believe that to be the case, as has been discussed ad-infinitum above and in archived discussions. After reviewing the numerous discussions on this matter, I believe, whether people against having an image of Muhammed think it was done to appease them or not, that in reality, policy is simply being followed (which may just happen to coincide with their desires). ROBERTMFROMLI | ^TK/_CN 15:31, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

No policy is not being followed people are avoiding raising the issue as they will just be attacked (like you post), people are ignoring the fact special treatment is being applied here because it's easier to appease then anything else, look how much the bad guy I have become! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.6.130 (talk • contribs)

Please try reading this thread from the beginning. If you can find a common visual depiction of Muhammad, feel free to add it. Those of us who would like to see such an image have tried valiantly, and failed to find one. So go ahead, nobody is stopping you. You have yet to suggest anything specific. Find an image and present it. Otherwise your complaints aren't relevant, and starting to border on WP:TENDENTIOUS behavior. ~Amatulić (talk) 15:54, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Anon: Be careful who you accuse of attacking you (I don't particularly care, but others might). I suspect I did no such thing. Like Amatulic, I'm all for an image if a common visual depiction can be found. I too couldn't find any. Help us out in this matter and find one, and you've got my !vote. ROBERTMFROMLI | ^TK/_CN 22:11, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Hi, all. This article isn't part of my field of expertise, but I just read it for the first time and want to chip in my short opinion. I must say, the usage of images in this article is quite strange. I understand the reasoning "his calligraphic name is the most common representation of him" - that seems reasonable for the infobox. However, to not have any artistic depictions of Muhammad until halfway down his main article is very odd, particularly when no other similar articles does so (this has been noted already). A few images, like the image of the Quran in the first section, seem unnecessary, as well. I think everyone knows images of Muhammad are offensive to some, but that's never been an issue on Wikipedia. There are a number of other places where images considered offensive by certain groups are used prominently in articles. Thanks, and happy editing.  White Whirlwind  咨  00:07, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Sadly, though Wikipedia is supposed to be, this article is not treated secularly, and has a number of exceptions to minimize or decrease religious offense. ROBERTMFROMLI | ^TK/_CN 23:12, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

remove the pictures

--براء داغستاني (talk) 18:01, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

• All but 2 of the current 9 sections on this page actually relate to images, and should have been moved there. On the other hand currently there is discussion on the images question on about 5 different pages, and a posting referring to these here might be useful. Johnbod (talk) 18:37, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Pictures of Muhammad p.b.u.h should be removed

• all the pictures protayed Muhammad p.b.u.h should be removed because Muhammad cannot be illustrated. It had been stated in al - Quran. Wikipedia should have sensitivity regarding religion and accept others people opinion. Those pictures are too offensive to all MUSLIM,, there are no such things in Islam that Muhammad p.b.uh can be ilustrated. Please remove the picture as soon as possible. 175.144.81.9 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:40, 10 November 2011 (UTC).
  • There is an ongoing discussion about this here and here. Peace. --JN466 15:48, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Nowhere in the Koran does it say that Muhammad can't be depicted; that's the opinion of some scholars after his death. Otherwise, I'd take the advice given to you above. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 04:28, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
• (also posted on User talk:Jimbo Wales) Several of the images under discussion here appear in the 2009 book on Muhammad by the Islamic scholar Omid Safi, "Memories of Muhammad: Why the Prophet Matters".[47] The book has received positive reviews in various academic journals. The illustrations used in the book are listed at the end under "art credits": the cover image of Muhammad with the angel Gabriel from the Topkapi Palace Museum; 3 illustrations from the Qisas al-Anbiya; 3 images of the Night Journey from the BNF in Paris, the Metropolitan Museum in New York. and the British Library in London. In the owrds of one reviewer [48] (Mary Hossain of Queens Universi[ty, Belfast): "This book provides a new approach, or a new combination of approaches, to the familiar story of the life of the Prophet. It combines the historical and the spiritual, giving, for example, the pre-Islamic background and relating several crucial episodes of the Prophet's life, but also showing how these are interpreted in a spiritual way by Muslims, showing both the ‘historical Muhammad’ and the ‘Muhammad of grace’. In this way Omid Safi communicates to the reader the Muslims’ love for the Prophet as well as addressing and assessing the historical evidence for certain events." This is a source by an academic Islamist which uses the same type of historical image currently in the wikipedia article. Mathsci (talk) 05:27, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
  • He is from Iran, where images of the Prophet are tolerated. Safi also reports in his book that he is wary of telling some of his Muslim friends that the image in his home is of Muhammad, because they react badly to it. Cf. pages 184–186 in the book by Carl W. Ernst ("While Muslims in other countries might find this objectionable, it seems to cause no comment in Iran."). It is a question of proportion. Safi takes the view, as an Iranian muslim, that images of Muhammad are okay. It's a significant minority view in Islam, but far from a majority view, nor representative of how Muhammad is most commonly portrayed. --JN466 06:06, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, but this part "where images of the Prophet are tolerated" isn't relevant to anything. OTOH, I contend my post on Jimbo's page is relevant to this matter - here it is with a little more clarification: no one has proposed another depiction of Muhammad that is more common. Therein lies the problem. Calligraphy is not Muhammad or a depiction of how he was perceived to look. No one would look at calligraphy and say "yeah, that's what he looked like!" Nor is "flame and veil" - that is simply a depiction of specifically how he does not look in order to have something that does not violate religious rules or create religious offense. A biography has pictures of (a) how someone looked, or (b) failing the availability of such, how others perceived him to look.

I'll be honest about something else. The other thing that has hurt the response to the opinions of some editors here is that pictures of a veiled/flamed Muhammad are ok and more suitable - but if it comes to unveiled pics, they're "false depictions". Obviously, there are two reasons such hurts their stance - the first is (a) that, correctly or not, it implies that the editor is applying a religious bias of some sort, and (b) a head of fire is far less likely to resemble what he looked like than a depiction of an actual head - which may possibly even be drawn from what descriptions are available on how he looked. Thus, the "false depictions" argument doesnt hold out well when those editors trot out support for one and wish to remove the others. ROBERTMFROMLI | ^TK/_CN 02:58, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Image deletion nomination

I would like to nominate the image http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Surat_An-Najm.jpg for deletion out of the text. It does nothing to enhance the readers knowledge of the subject. Tivanir2 (talk) 22:50, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose _{^{(05:29, 11 November 2011 (UTC))}} Withholding !vote: until someone can translate the specific text. If the text creates a relevance point to Muhammad or the section of the article, then, with appropriate caption indicating such relevance in English, I'd be against deletion. If no relevance, I'd be for deletion. This is not an article on the Qur'an, and only needs representations of such as relevant. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | ^TK/_CN 23:10, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose removal The image is in the section on the Quran, and it shows a page from the Quran. The Quran is what Muhammad is famous for – to muslims, it's the word of God, as reported by Muhammad, his messenger. Muhammad is omnipresent in Islamic culture through Quranic quotations. --JN466 05:21, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

• You had me at "The image is in the section on the Quran, and it shows a page from the Quran." ;-) Best, Rob ROBERTMFROMLI | ^TK/_CN 05:29, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Mm. :) If we want a more meaningful caption, we could add that An-Najm marks the first time Muhammad asked his followers to perform a prostration (prayer is mentioned in the text). The last line on the page means, "So prostrate to God and worship him." Best, --JN466 05:56, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

• I note that the "aniconic" argument of "it does nothing to enhance the readers knowledge of the subject" applies just as stongly, or just as weakly, to images of the Quran or calligraphy as to figurative images of the Prophet. I don't buy this argument, & I think we should have at least one image of a Quran, though I don't think the current ones are the best choice. Commons has a huge Category:Qur'an from which better images can be chosen. Johnbod (talk) 15:06, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
  • I don't follow that. Showing a page of the Quran shows words Muhammad actually spoke. That in itself is a pretty immediate connection to Muhammad as the subject of the article. The loving way they are reproduced indicates in what esteem they are held, and the significance attributed to them, which is part of his reception, as well as communicating cultural flair. --JN466 15:19, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

• Sadly, I think you just won Johnbod's "argument" for him - let me work from your statement: "I don't follow that. Showing a depiction of Muhammad shows how many people have perceived Muhammad through the ages. That in itself is a pretty immediate connection to Muhammad as the subject of the article. The loving way they are created and reproduced - much less commissioned by noble families, indicates in what esteem they are held, and the significance attributed to them, which is part of his reception, as well as communicating cultural flair."

See my point? Side note, we do not know that the Qur'an page in the image is an exact faithful replica of his original words or of earlier printings, do we? I mean, I am sure we can assume such (as people do with the Bible). But I am wondering if (just like the Bible) we'd be wrong. Either way, it's not something we can definitively say. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | ^TK/_CN 16:43, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

The Quran and the Bible are quite different in that respect: while the Quran is Muhammad's work (and scholarship generally doesn't doubt that), none of the New Testament was written by Jesus. So there is an immediacy here that does not apply in the case of the Bible. The Quran continues to be studied, memorised, quoted, inscribed and recited to a degree the Bible is not. The problem with applying the "how many people have perceived Muhammad through the ages" argument to figurative images is the "many". By all accounts (see comments on Jimbo's talk), figurative images were rare to begin with, were used in non-public contexts only, and most Muslims refrained from making such images. So while they are part of Muhammad's reception, they are a very small and generally unrepresentative part of it. The reproduction of Muhammad's names and words in the Quran in contrast is central to Muhammad's artistic reception. --JN466 00:16, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Rarity is irrelevant to "is this a picture/photo/sitting-portrait/depiction of the article subject?" Nothing suffices as a substitute for such except more of the same. ;-) Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | ^TK/_CN 01:59, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Ok, If you can read Arabic your knowledge may be directly enhanced (by images where the text is actually legible) but if not not. Logically the "enhance the readers knowledge" argument would dictate images of an English translation in the English article. But I think there is much more to illustration of articles than this somewhat fundamentalist approach. Johnbod (talk) 17:27, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Actually I would like to point out the koran was written after muhammads death so no it isn't his work. It is written by his companions before his death as the word of god passed through muhammad. So it is almost exactly like the bible in that aspect since neither were written by the person in question. The reason I added in the question is to show that an image may be informative without necessarily having any supporting text. Tivanir2 (talk) 15:10, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

My apologies i think faster than I write it is suppose to say it was partially written after his death. Also for the biblical references I doubt they started writing after death so we can summarize they are similar in creation. Tivanir2 (talk) 15:14, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

• oppose per wikipedia is not censored. Pass a Method talk 19:08, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Irrelevant comment. This isn't a censorship issue. Nobody is offended by this image, nobody is proposing censoring anything. Have you looked at the image at all? ~Amatulić (talk) 21:11, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Amatulic I think you've missed the point entirely. More of a statement than an earnest argument if I'm not mistaken. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 02:21, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I know it's a statement. I got that point. However, it appears to be irrelevant to this discussion, as far as I can tell.

For my part, I have no opinion yet. The article would not be worse off without the image, but it certainly isn't harmed by it, either. ~Amatulić (talk) 02:48, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

FWIW I think this image is probably a copyright violation. The uploader also uploaded a bunch of copyvio calligraphy, participated in the deletion discussions, and then when they were deleted as copyvios at commons, immediately uploaded them to ar.wiki. Same with another photo he uploaded to commons. Given the border/vignetting and that he is not a trustworthy user, I bet this is something just snagged from the web. Calliopejen1 (talk) 02:30, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Proposed image solution

Flowing from a discussion I began at Anthonyhcole's talk page, and moving onto Jayen's, I propose several ideas that should, in my view, represent a reasonable solution to the ongoing debates as well as present an opportunity for a better balance of images throughout the article. The proposal is based on two opinions that I hold: 1. We will not remove all - or even most - depictions, full stop. 2. There are too many images overall (26 at this time), which are crushing the text in places.

Without veil (1494–5)

With veil (1539–1543)

First and foremost: the depictions. Presently, there are five Muslim and one western depiction in the article. I propose to change this to three Muslim and two western, net reduction of one. The three Muslim images would represent the three ways in which Muhammad has been depicted at some point in history: fully rendered, defaced, and as a flame. The full render and the defaced image (example to right) would be placed in the Islamic depictions section where they can be used to show not only that such images exist - which I hold to be valuable educationally - but with solid captions can be used to show the progression from full rendering to none throughout history. File:Muhammad destroying idols - L'Histoire Merveilleuse en Vers de Mahomet BNF.jpg, the image of Muhammad as a Flame, would remain in an appropriate position of his historical biography. This should be acceptable to all sides, as it is still a depiction, but does not actually render Muhammad. This allows us to display the three ways in which Muhammad was depicted, once each in the article.

Western tradition obviously has no such restrictions on imagery, and we have space in the section, so I suggest to add File:Scotusnfrieze.jpeg, which shows one western view of Muhammad as a bringer of laws. In our discussion, Anthony suggested replacing the existing Russian image with one showing Muhammad in hell, but not nearly as "ghastly" as the one that was removed, showing historical Western perspective.

The reduction of one depiction would be, in my mind, part of a greater redressing of the balance. Between the 26 images and several templates, the text gets crushed in several locations. My view is an overall reduction of at least three images. For instance, do we need 6-8 calligraphic renderings? We could eliminate one by removing or completely collapsing {{Islam}}, especially since it is redundant to the {{Islam topics}} navbox. It is a nice looking template, but why have two that points to the same links? Especially when removing the side bar will open space up to move images around. Additionally, it is currently oddly placed in the western views section. I would also favour collapsing the other two templates in some fashion, as they take up a remarkable amount of real estate that could be better used in organizing the images we have.

Thoughts? Resolute 00:22, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Sounds good. Jarkeld (talk) 00:26, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

• I would oppose replacing Islamic images with Western ones. What is the point of that supposed to be? Especially the two specifically mentioned, which I have commented on above. Apart from other considerations this will clearly increase the "offensiveness" of the page to those who find it so. Johnbod (talk) 00:42, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

I doubt it would change the offensiveness of the article at all. The people complaining of "offensiveness" will not be satisfied until depictions = 0. Given that will never gain consensus and therefore such individuals will never be satisfied, I do not see any point in worrying about that viewpoint. My goal is to address arguments related to value and placement of the images used. Resolute 01:24, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

That's naive frankly. There are a lot of Muslims who don't complain now, but would complain about an image in Muhammad in hell. Johnbod (talk) 01:29, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

I brought that up as Anthony's suggestion, and there is a point to be made that it is a legitimate historical viewpoint. That said, I have no issue with using another image (such as retaining the Russian one) if that is preferred. Resolute 01:35, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

It's covered at Depictions of Muhammad, with 2 hell images, which is where it belongs imo. Johnbod (talk) 01:55, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

The image of Muhammad being tortured in hell was removed previously from this article by consensus, as being needlessly provocative. The discussion is at Talk:Muhammad/images/Archive 17#Proposed removal of deliberately provocative images. I would oppose its re-introduction. ~Amatulić (talk) 02:01, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

That was never an image up for consideration. In fact, I specifically stated the discussion was about a less-provocative image. Either way, I have struck that part, as people are getting caught up on one little piece, and ignoring the overall suggestion. Resolute 02:28, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

• Semi-related question. Is the picture with veil actually a picture that was without veil and painted over? Has that happened in the past? I note that the outline seems to be of facial features and not of a veil. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | ^TK/_CN 01:00, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

  It might be. I know in Commons, there is an unveiled image that was altered to be shown defaced - with Muhammad's face painted over. Resolute 01:24, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

  That has happened to some images, but they can't usually tell unless the paints starts peeling or turns transparent, or you can see under light from behind etc. At this date veils were probably standard anyway - Gruber gives the Safavid takeover in 1502 as the rough date of the change. Johnbod (talk) 01:27, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

• That brings up an interesting point (I'll leave the relevance of it up to others to decide). Muhammad was probably never perceived, portrayed or viewed by his peers with a veil. Of course, the guidelines in MOS\Images does not favor either, regardless of that. Interesting... ROBERTMFROMLI | ^TK/_CN 00:33, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

• Thanks, Resolute. I support this as a compromise proposal, and one that better reflects Islamic ways of portraying Muhammad. I agree with Johnbod about a picture of Muhammad in hell being needlessly provocative here. Incidentally, about the veil, there were also pictures where the artist painted a calligraphic symbol of Muhammad instead of a face, and then covered the symbol with a veil, as a mark of respect. --JN466 16:17, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

• Agree with collapsing the box. I don't think I agree that the flame image is better for his historical biography section. Not to be funny, but the sources agree that he had a human face when he was alive. So, editorially, I would prefer image(s) with his face in his biography section. Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:28, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

I think I lost that argument... though my newer one above leans in the same direction. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | ^TK/_CN 00:37, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Images showing a face were in a minority compared to veil/flame images, and images were rare overall, compared to calligraphy; we should reflect proportions accurately (roughly at least). --JN466 18:09, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Where is this? Commons is not a meaningful sample of anything much. It is simply a matter of dating. Before about 1500, mainly face shown. After then mainly veiled, until recent times when images are rather more mixed. Johnbod (talk) 19:40, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

See Safi. You're right about the 1500 watershed though. --JN466 21:43, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

See Gruber for a less vague treatment. Johnbod (talk) 22:27, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I've looked at Gruber, but is it your impression that she is contradicting Safi on what's the most common type of illustration? I've seen nothing in her work to suggest that. And there are other sources saying much the same as Safi, e.g. [49]. I'm not against showing one unveiled Islamic image, as per Resolute's proposal above. --JN466 22:35, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

When the difference is one of dating, as she demonstrates pretty clearly, it is unhelpfully vague to talk of what is most "common" without specifying a period. Johnbod (talk) 22:40, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I thought it didn't matter in this context. Due weight is a question of absolute numbers rather than particular time periods. But you are of course correct on the facts of the matter. --JN466 20:57, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

• [50][51] I thought we had a semblance of consensus. --JN466 20:57, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

I would have hoped so too. Hopefully a few more people opine in this section, as I think we would all like to move forward with this article. Resolute 23:22, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm happy with this - if we do this we can avoid any escalation from me. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:37, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't see the preceding discussion as responsive to my point. Obviously, people round the world have illustrated the human Mohammed. I still view this as a biography, generally in biography we (and most sources in biography) illustrate the person. I can see no reason not too (other than religious scruple). You say they are "rare"? In every other biography such claim would ensure that the image is included.Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:57, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

This proposal still includes some images of Muhammad in the article. The point is that in this case lots of biographies apparently don't include images of Muhammad where you'd expect them to for other figures. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 13:11, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

The proposal is to eliminate all such images from the biography sections and the reason given for the don't is religious scruple. Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:35, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

I would be content to allow a single image to remain in the biography section. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 13:52, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Alan, the compromise Resolute, Anthonyhcole and I worked out is that one image would remain in the biography section. It would look like this, perhaps with a second image subsequently added in the European reception section. The change is not actually motivated by religious scruples, but by a desire to reflect Islamic representations of Muhammad in something approaching correct proportions. If this lessens offence to muslims, that is a welcome side effect, but it isn't actually the rationale for what's proposed. Cheers, --JN466 17:35, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Given we currently have three actual images of Muhammad in the "life" section which show his face, wouldn't it be reasonable to still include one there. Alan makes a reasonable point and there is value in showing his face in the biography section - and I think that wouldn't be gratuitous and that most reasonable people (including hopefully most muslims) would be OK with that. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:25, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

We wanted to have three images showing the main types of depiction in Persian book miniatures – flame, veiled, face. The two mi'raj images work best side by side to illustrate how conventions changed around 1500, from facial depictions to veiled depictions. --JN466 18:36, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

And I presume the flame/veiled ones significantly outweigh the others. Damn :(. We could add another image to the European and Western reactions section - the US supreme court one could work well there. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:46, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Jayen: I am aware that it would eliminate Mohammed Kaaba (at right)

, (which consensus above recently confirmed should be here) in favor of NO image illustrating his early life. Since this is the only image we have illustrating his early life, the correct proportion would be to have it. We should stick with the prior consensus, above. I am also aware that it would eliminate The Revelation (at left)

, illustrating the very text which makes him MOST notable, again in favor of NO image. I see no pedagogical reason for that. There is one other, which no one has made a claim does not belong.

IMO The pictures you wish to remove should be individually put up for review (except for Mohammed Kabba, which recently successfully went through such review) and the basis for removal should NOT be based on some claim of "Islamic representation" - that IS an explicit religious motivation. Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:06, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

The goal of my proposal was to organize a layout that would be acceptable to a majority of the involved editors. I think that if we can agree on this being a viable framework, we can then discuss which specific images work best, if the ones contained in this proposal are not found to be the best choices. Resolute 19:11, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Is the basis for your framework "Islamic representation," and if so, why do we need to eliminate illustrations of his early life and his revelation? Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:27, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

No, the basis for my framework is to try and achieve an image layout that most will accept. Resolute 19:30, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Then, I amend my opinion, we should put them up for review in one section all at the same time, with separate support or oppose rationales requested for each. Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:35, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Given we need to balance the overall article I don't think that's a good idea. The refutation of my suggestion above is overall balance and not whether individual images are acceptable. This has been a contentious issue for a long time and we are all going to need to be prepared to compromise on it if we want to get a resolution to this matter. It has been an issue for far too long already.

Resolute's excellent proposal above is the sort of thing I would expect to come out of mediation - why force us through that process, including topic bans for anyone who is uncooperative and all sorts of other nastiness if we don't have to? I was premature about suggesting mediation given this discussion, and I also probably haven't explained my position as clearly as I could have done (part of that is that I am internally torn as to exactly what my view is) but resolving this is not something that can be allowed to slide indefinitely. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:54, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Re balance. If you put them up all at the same time, then people can argue balance. Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:01, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Potentially, but I think what counts to the people who want a reduction in the number of images is a reduction in the total number of images, not which particular images (within reason - so the hell ones aren't included) are included in the article.

Letting those who know the most about the topic to pick the exact images to include sounds the wisest course of action. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:15, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

If the consensus is wide and it is based on policy and reason, it has a better chance of sticking (provisionally) on a wiki than if it is based on a narrow group of people (one who claims their proposal is based on "Islamic representation" and one who claims it is not). We can't hope to solve the dilemma for all time of correct representation of the Prophet for the outside world, we can only do what we do based on our core policy and mission, using the processes we have to gage consensus and reason. As long as we have this article, and whether it has 0 or more than X number of representations, this page will be subject to this controversy (unless the world changes), we can only hope to put it to bed for a reasonable time, if we find a way to gage the most agreement, grounded in policy. Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:58, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Alan, we are using both Islamic and non-Islamic images. To the extent that we are using Islamic images, it doesn't make sense to focus on a rare type of image, to the detriment of showing mainstream imagery and art associated with Muhammad (for example, we still don't have a single image illustrating a Quranic inscription on a mosque, despite the fact that these are ubiquitous throughout the Islamic world, and we have hundreds of beautiful examples in Commons). Jimbo summed this up quite well, after voluminous discussions on his talk page, drawing on many sources putting these images in their wider context. Please let's just implement the consensus and get on with other things. --JN466 12:59, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

I think a single (or at most two) non-Islamic images is a reasonable coverage of non-Islamic Muhammad images, we only have a single non-Christian cultural image of Jesus in that article - File:ChineseJesus.jpg. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:57, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't object based on whether any image is Islamic or not. I have stated my objection based on the fact that this is his biography; I also have no objection to telling the reader that any particular image is rare, if RS says it is so (and if someone thinks that is important for the reader to know). I have also suggested a way to gage wide consensus (if you want to show there is a consensus that is different than the one already evident in the article), based on policy, in the appropriate forum, here. Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:44, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

As a further observation, objection, or point of discussion depending on how you wish to take it. The images in the Muslim depiction section don't actually have the room to fit there (which makes sense as that section is a squib for another article) and it seems to me they are not needed here, in this article, at all. Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:59, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

If you want to know what the wider audience who reads Muhammad thinks to gather a consensus take down the discussion suppressing headers and start an RFC. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 07:37, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

• Note: I intend to implement the above compromise proposal shortly. So far I've seen nods from 7 editors – Resolute, Anthonyhcole, Mathsci, myself, Eraserhead, Jarkeld, and RobertMfromLi, and I see only two editors (Johnbod and Alanscottwalker) opposed. --JN466 01:32, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
  • I wouldn't do that. Most of the editors you mention are very recent arrivals here, and most of the many longstanding editors have been taking a break since the torrent of words got too much to read a few weeks ago (which with threads like today's below remains the case). I see there are 13 editors with over 100 contributions to this page, of whom only I think 5 have so far commented, with 2 against. And there's a bundle more with 50 plus. Johnbod (talk) 01:37, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
  • I also don't see the support you claim. Alanscottwalker (talk) 04:56, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
    • Resolute posted the proposal, based on discussions he initiated on Anthonyhcole's and my talk page, with participation from Mathsci. Statements on this page:
    • "There was an agreement about the use of a limited (probably reduced) number of images between Jayen466, Anthonyhcole and me, amongst others. There has been compromise and flexibility; and in this case criteria have emerged, depending on secondary sources, for deciding when images are appropriate and where they should be placed." Mathsci (talk) 08:49, 27 November 2011 (UTC) (below)
    • "Sounds good." Jarkeld (talk) 00:26, 18 November 2011 (UTC)"
    • "While I might be able to sign on to that proposal as well, I am leaning to believe it is a stopgap measure ..." ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 21:46, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
    • "I'm happy with this - if we do this we can avoid any escalation from me." -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:37, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
    • Ludwigs2 is in support as well (I've asked him).
    • From Jimbo on his talk page: "To be very very specific rather than abstract, we should be careful not to allow political views held by almost all Wikipedians (in a particular language) to distract us from the demands of NPOV. So as an example, if reliable sources suggest that depictions of Muhammad are rare, we shouldn't as a "political act" shove a bunch of them in just to prove some kind of case against censorship - if we do so, then we misrepresent history. True NPOV in this area would involve finding a consensus about what reliable sources do. Depictions of Muhammad needs to have some historically relevant and important ones because that's what the article is about. Muhammad though, should not mislead the reader into thinking such images are common if they are not. This doesn't mean that the number should be zero, necessarily, just that it should reflect what is found in reliable sources." --Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:35, 20 November 2011 (UTC) [52]

    --JN466 12:19, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

After all the electrons that editors have fired around the world over this I don't think it's acceptable to retire into a corner and claim a consensus that seems so inconsistent with the consensus of the community. It seems clear to me that are many editors who have been participating in discussions elsewhere but who may not know that this discussion is going on. I only became aware of it a few moments ago.

For what it's worth, I think a compromise proposal is the right way to go. But it mustn't look like censorship, which I think this one does, by removing images of Mohammed where the face can be made out in thumbnail and by taking the first occurance of images even further down the page.

I think any proposal that is to be put ought to be put by way of an RfC, since there is clearly wide community interest. --FormerIP (talk) 21:04, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

If you want to do that then the discussion suppressing headers on this talk page and the Muhammad main talk page and the FAQ have to go for at least the length of the RFC. Any attempt at gaining a wider consensus without doing that is invalid as you are making it significantly harder for one side of the discussion to contribute equally.

Additionally the discussion should be listed with the appropriate WikiProjects.

If you guys want to go to that effort I don't have an issue, but I don't think its going to make a significant difference to the outcome. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:39, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree with much of what Former IP wrote; I also find it untoward, Jayen, that you are claiming !votes for this proposal based on cryptic statements of what others have said elsewhere. I think there has been consensus for compromise (including from me), but several of the comments above don't clearly state support for this particular proposal, and one (Robert) is against. As for Jimbo's comment, it's not supporting this compromise, at all. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:08, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

The statements quoted are from this page, with the exception of Jimbo's, which is linked. --JN466 01:45, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

I think my view on this proposal can be inferred from what I've said above but

Support. This elegant solution respects the relevance provision of WP:IUP. By using figurative images as examples of Islamic depictions or Western reception (highly relevant and edifying), and not using them to "illustrate" the action of the story, comic book style, (didactically virtually valueless), we demonstrate that we are not censored while avoiding giving the impression of being pointy dicks. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 03:59, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Section break

I had hoped to find a solution to this tedium. Guess we aren't there yet. Lets see what comes next... Resolute 23:10, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

I think trying to work through it in a more structured, policy-guided way may be less tedious. I have to say though, that I don't have a detailed plan for doing that to present. I do think that this is a significant discussion which affects Wikipedia as well as the article. I would compare it to the current discussion on the intro to WP:V, which have gone on for a long time and may go on for a while longer. Seven questionable supports for this type of decision is not a consensus.

It would be good to work towards an RfC in which mention of either religious sensitivities or WP:NOTCENSORED could be banished. I'm not sure whether than is realistic, but my sense is we will not get anywhere otherwise. Thoughts anyone? --FormerIP (talk) 00:25, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, that has been the argument all along. This is not about religious sensitivities, or censorship. What it is about is representing Islamic art—given that many of our illustrations are Islamic art—appropriately, and proportionately. Figurative images of Muhammad are rare in Islam. Those that existed, were mainly of three types: early Persian art showed Muhammad's face, while later on, Muhammad was shown as a flame, or with his face veiled. The main representations of Muhammad are through calligraphy of his words, included in practically every mosque in existence, and through calligraphic art, either of his name, or of quite detailed descriptions of his physical appearance (as in the hilye example), based on recorded accounts of his contemporaries. This also reflects the illustration style of reliable English-language sources on Muhammad. Standard images include calligraphy, mosques, muslims in prayer, etc., and then there is a division between books that feature some figurative images, and others that don't. (This is about English-language sources; mainstream Arabic sources for example would never feature [figurative] images.) Now, we can't be neutral in the sense that we both feature images of Muhammad and don't feature images of Muhammad. The best compromise we can arrive at is that we feature some images—because there is interest in them—but do not overwhelm the article with them and give due prominence to mainstream Islamic art (which is mainstream throughout the Islamic world, whether Shi'a or Sunni). Anything I just said only applies to the Islamic images we use; Western images are a different kettle of fish. That, FormerIP, was what this compromise proposal was designed to achieve, and there have been voluminous discussions, here and on Jimbo's talk page, for the past few weeks. Every one of the images that this proposal retains has an encyclopedic justification. In particular, by featuring two images of the mi'raj—one of the most popular subjects depicted by artists—side by side, we can illustrate to the reader how representations of Muhammad changed around 1500, moving from depictions of his face to veiled images. It's a good compromise, don't you think? --JN466 00:57, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

No, let's not be naive. It's about religious sensitivities (or, more correctly, editors' assumptions about what those might be) vs NOTCENSORED. Even if a claim to the contrary were justified, no other perspective has had room to breathe. What I'm suggesting is that it would be a useful exercise to put that entirely to one side and see where the rest of it takes us. --FormerIP (talk) 01:21, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

I can't force you to actually research this topic area, but it might help if you read the sources I added earlier today to the Islamic depictions section. Figurative images are rare, and offensiveness should not play any role either way in how many we feature. We shouldn't feature more of them than is justified, nor less. --JN466 01:40, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

That's one of the arguments that hasn't had room to breathe. I happen to disagree with the argument. But what I'm saying is give it some space, unencumbered, and see where it may lead and what consensus or compromise might emerge. --FormerIP (talk) 01:45, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

We've been discussing it for weeks, to death. Have you read the discussions on Jimbo's talk? Have you read the sources? --JN466 01:48, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

You don't need to force me. What's taken place on Jimbo's talkpage and elsewhere is an argument about censorship. Even if it editors have tried to make it otherwise, it has been about nothing more than that. --FormerIP (talk) 01:55, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

So, if I understand this correctly, you have never edited this article, have never contributed to its talk page, have never contributed to this sub-talk page, have not followed any of the week-long discussions that led up to this proposal, have not read any of the sources, don't understand the subject matter, but make two reverts of a compromise proposal interested editors worked hard to arrive at here, based on some general idea of censorship? --JN466 02:04, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

You don't understand it correctly, and it's not about me. I'm just politely replying to your comments. --FormerIP (talk) 02:07, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, I am sorry, at this point it is about you, because you have never edited this article, have never contributed to its talk pages, and are clearly not au fait with the status of discussion, yet choose to make two reverts of a compromise proposal supported and accepted by a majority of editors, without having read the talk page. --JN466 02:13, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm totally on top of the status of the discussion, Jayen. You should respond to the points I have made, rather than coming up with reasons why I may not be entitled to make them. --FormerIP (talk) 02:18, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, then you also know that your reverts were against majority opinion here on this talk page. The only point you have made is that what we do should not "look like censorship". I am sure you are not the only editor capable of assessing that. We have three Islamic images of Muhammad, representing the three main types of images there have been. One of them clearly shows a figure with an unveiled face, and is located in the appropriate section, Islamic depictions of Muhammad. In addition we have a European image, also unveiled, and are contemplating adding another such image (probably SCOTUS, below). --JN466 02:34, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

As I've explained above, I do not think a community-wide discussion involving countless editors overall which, though not perfectly coherent, came down with a clear consensus against removing images, can be overridden with a dubious self-declared 5-2 majority here. That's the crux of what I'm saying and it seems that other editors agree. You can ignore my suggestions for moving forward if you like. I was only trying to be helpful. --FormerIP (talk) 02:41, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, I appreciate that, but you weren't. :) And I do not know which discussions you are referring to, unless you are referring to generic discussions about censorship at WT:NOT. This is not about censoring this article. The discussions on Jimbo's talk page, summarised by Jimbo himself, did look at a slew of sources specifically about this topic, and did lead to the suggestion to use mi'raj images, and the formulation of this compromise. --JN466 02:49, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't think there's much of a connection between the discussion at Jimbo's and this proposal show very much relation. The overwhleming consensus there was that censoring is not a basis for changing the article. There may be other bases, which have not yet had proper discussion. My view is that the proposal, admitting defeat in the objective of removing all the images, selects the most censor-friendly, relatively speaking, for inclusion. That's not a correct reading of community consensus, which I think is to reject censorship entirely. --FormerIP (talk) 03:01, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Mathsci made the suggestion of using a night journey image at 18:01, 12 November 2011 (UTC) on Jimbo's talk. That's why we have night journey images here. The outcome of the discussion was, in Jimbo's words, and based on numerous sources looked at in the course of that discussion, "we should be careful not to allow political views held by almost all Wikipedians (in a particular language) to distract us from the demands of NPOV. So as an example, if reliable sources suggest that depictions of Muhammad are rare, we shouldn't as a "political act" shove a bunch of them in just to prove some kind of case against censorship - if we do so, then we misrepresent history. True NPOV in this area would involve finding a consensus about what reliable sources do. Depictions of Muhammad needs to have some historically relevant and important ones because that's what the article is about. Muhammad though, should not mislead the reader into thinking such images are common if they are not. This doesn't mean that the number should be zero, necessarily, just that it should reflect what is found in reliable sources.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:35, 20 November 2011 (UTC)" --JN466 03:10, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I find these claims about implied messages in the article concerning religious art to be fanciful constructs. Anyone can find implications about anything they choose to concerning hidden messages, if they ignore what is explicitly claimed: this is a man's life; these are the important things about him; these are illustrations of that life; end of article. The reader need not even concern herself with who painted what or why (and many will not). If she is curious, she can link through page after page, explaining almost everything about the art, the religion, the controversies, etc. etc. Even if enough editors agree that an unwanted implication is so apparent it should be preemptively warded oeff (a rare occurence), it is simple to do so, with a brief annotation, or a few words. Alanscottwalker (talk) 02:15, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

We're not talking about implied messages. At present, we're simply overrepresenting a rare and specialist type of imagery, and underrepresenting common, mainstream types of imagery associated with Muhammad. --JN466 02:43, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

That's not true. No one has produced other images that illustrate his life.Alanscottwalker (talk) 02:50, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

It is clearly true that these images are rare. Sources to that effect have been provided. It is also true that Muhammad has had a tremendous influence on Islamic art and architecture, and that that has primarily been through the medium of his words, which are unquestionably the most significant and enduring aspect of his life. Again, sources to that effect have been provided. --JN466 03:01, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Rare images of the man's life belong in his biography. As for the other things concerning writings they are represented primarily and best in writing, and architecture, to squibs on other articles about architecture. Alanscottwalker (talk) 03:09, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

See Jimbo's argument above; he said it better than I could have. We have a Depictions of Muhammad article where these images are treated in full detail. The images that belong in the biography of a person are the types of imagery most commonly associated with that person in reliable sources. --JN466 03:14, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

And these would be that, since these are the images that have been produced about his life in reliable sources.Alanscottwalker (talk) 03:19, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Alan, there are many, many images of Muhammad depicted abstractly (veiled, as a flame, through calligraphic representations of his name). I don't understand why you're suggesting these full-faced images are better, given that they are a distinctly minor form. How could that position possibly conform to NPOV? --Ludwigs2 05:43, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Because we are illustrating an article about a man's life, not about art, and not about theology. Besides, the point of abstraction is not to inform about a person (unlike a biography), it is to abstract them (generally as a means to some claimed higher, or at least different, philosophical truth -- thus, by means of losing their individuality, they become a Form). As to the mechanics of the present proposal, it is not presently to replace the images in the biography sections (with the "many, many" others you claim), it is to delete them in favor of nothing in those biography sections. Alanscottwalker (talk) 10:51, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

In favour of one, actually, not none. The rationale was that we have too many of them, considering their marginal status. Do you accept that these images (1) were rare, and not representative of Muhammad's artistic reception, and that (2) they were not public art, but occurred as book illustrations privately commissioned by weathy patrons, who wanted to have their manuscripts illustrated? Or would you like me to show you sources? Just so we know what's understood and what isn't. --JN466 14:25, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

This article is not about artistic reception. The article is not about not about the economics or the publishing of manuscripts. It's not about public or private things (except to the extent that the images are in the public domain). The subjects you mention are very widely tangential, at best. It's enough to know that people wrote about Muhammad's life, and they illustrated it -- we are, too. But the case for removing these images on the basis that some are offended, or speculation that some may be misled about thing we don't say, or the arguments advanced so far that they are uninformative or irrelevant, I am unpersuaded by. Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:07, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Alan, while I may have said I'd prefer to reduce the number of images to reduce offence Jayen466 has not. He is just following sources, as we do everyday elsewhere on the project. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:55, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

No, we don't "follow sources" in that way. We follow sources to get information, not to make the information more abstract and tangential, and not to editorialize that pictures don't exist, when they do. Alanscottwalker (talk) 10:00, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

That isn't true. We use sources to find out what title to use for example. Other than following our sources how do we make sure we are following the non-negotiable policy WP:NPOV. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 10:05, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

By taking what reliable sources publish "appropriate for the content in question" and putting it in the article. These images are published in reliable sources and appropriate for the content in question. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:41, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

At WP:DUE weight. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:34, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Alan, I'm sorry, but that makes no sense on at least two dimensions:

1. The full-faced images are abstractions just as much as the veiled, flame-headed, and calligraphic images; remember, no one knows what Muhammad actually looked like. All the images suggest (really) is that Muhammad was a more or less 'human-shaped' human being, which isn't really something that needs to be pointed out. In fact, the full-faced images actively misinform the reader:
   • They lead the reader to think that these images depict what Muhammad looked like (they don't)
   • They lead the reader to think that images of this sort are common in Islam (they aren't)

   Why should we misinform readers that way?

2. Granting that the Islamic philosophical reason for abstraction is that they don't want people to worship the form of Muhammad (the way that Christians are often encouraged to worship the form of Christ), your comments sound more like you are opposing Islam's philosophical position rather than trying to write an encyclopedia. You seem to be arguing that not adding a lifelike image of Muhammad reduces him to a de-individualized form, which is hardly true in the first place (I've never seen an image of you but I clearly recognize your individuality), and seems to be a philosophical attack on Islamic tenets rather than anything pertinent to an encyclopedia. Wikipedia is not the correct place for you to engage in philosophical combat with a major world religion.

Do you see what I'm getting at? --Ludwigs2 15:55, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

I do see what you're getting at. You choose to criticize me, based on nothing but your unsupported guess work about implications for readers and for me, as well as factual error. None of which are true. You are wrong about me and wrong about facts. 1) I do not oppose Islamic art in any sense. 2) People physically described the living Muhammed. 3) People drew those descriptions. Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:46, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

He's criticising your argument, not you. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:58, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, he did a terrible job of it. Next time someone tells you, you're attacking religious tradition based on their misinformation and ill-consideration, over an editorial disagreement, I doubt you'll not take it as personally as it's meant. I wouldn't choose abstract art of any tradition, to primarily illustrate any biography, as I find it ill suited to the task. Alanscottwalker (talk) 09:41, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

What you're getting at is misdirection. This entire shitstorm was began by you yelling about offense of Muslims, and when that didn't stick it has now morphed into "that's not how Muslims view Muhammad". We're not engaging in "philosophical combat" here; what we are doing is ensuring that "Islam's philosophical position" as you put it is not a possible or potential consideration when making editorial decision here. Their views are irrelevant. Tarc (talk) 18:36, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Per NPOV, their views count just as much as anyone else's. No more, no less. Or are you saying you want to specifically exclude Muslims and Muslim sources from Wikipedia, but are fine with Jews, Chrstians and Buddhists? If so, I'd be very interested in your reasoning, and how you square it with project principles. --JN466 20:37, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

The part beginning with "Or are you..." is simplistic baiting, and will not be responded to. As to the first, no, they do not count. This is a peculiar twisting of NPOV that you two have begun to twist, once the "they're offended!" shtick didn't win anyone over, that a neutral presentation of Muhammad in the Wikipedia somehow must acknowledge Muslim sensitivities regarding his face and overall appearance. We are free to address the fact that some Muslims do take offense to images of Muhammad; that is a recognizable and identifiable fact of history. But we (the Wikipedia) do not need to adhere to that religious belief in order to talk about it. Do you understand the difference? TALK about the concept of depictions being offensive, you don't have to actually BE deferential in order to discuss the deference in Islam. You position is utterly indefensible, it'd be like demanding we write out "G-d" instead of "God" in an article on Judaism. Tarc (talk) 20:52, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

The fundamental difference is that there is no on-wiki controversy about that - there is only a single discussion I can find talking about it at Talk:Judaism and there is no FAQ on it or anything else. We are currently taking the views of Jews into account of the use of the word god and they don't appear to care, so there is literally zero reason to change it - even on grounds of offensiveness. There certainly isn't even enough controversy to even look and see what our sources do. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 10:04, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Hmm, you either misread or did not understand Jayen's argument. We're not talking about offense or outside protests at the moment, we're discussing NPOV. There is a contention amongst the image-deleters that since Muslims do not typically show images, or at least the face, of Muhammad that to adhere to NPOV we must follow this view when writing this article. I am trying to untangle the notion that to discuss the deference/offense, one does not actually have to be deferential. If you have a comment on that, feel free. Otherwise, what you posted above is a bit of a strawman. Tarc (talk) 13:29, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

On wiki there is clearly no controversy about whether we should use g-d rather than god. If no-one has an issue with it, then there isn't a issue for any reason, whether we are considering offensiveness or NPOV or whatever. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 14:19, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

The tangle, Tarc, stems from the fact that you're trying to advocate for an inflexible black-and-white perspective. You've been arguing that any consideration of Muslim worldview - no matter how minor or common-sensical - is tantamount to deference to Islam. This is a similar argument to that used by those radical Atheists who pop up every Christmas to say that town councils can't set up Nativity scenes, grade schools can't do Christmas plays, TV networks shouldn't spend so much time on Christmas programming, and etc. What Jayen and I have been trying to point out is that there is a line where concern about censorship stops being a positive defense of the project and starts becoming mere intolerance of difference.

You can see that difference, right? that it's a good thing to keep the Islamic worldview from dominating the project, but a bad thing to be intolerant of Muslim beliefs?--Ludwigs2 14:43, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

My argument is quite different. It's always been about sources, not Muslim sources, but the entire pool of sources. Muslim art has developed in a different direction. Its most prominent imagery associated with Muhammad is aniconic. That prominence of aniconic art quite naturally filters down to Western sources writing about Muhammad, simply because writers and researchers tend to show prominent, representative images from a culture – images that are invested with cultural meaning – when writing about a key figure of that culture. My argument has always been based on what sources – not Muslim sources, but sources of any provenance – show. It has nothing to do with deference, except deference to sources in general. --JN466 15:30, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Following sources is generally the right approach - I see no reason why it isn't the right answer here. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 16:29, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

I certainly would accept that approach as a workable compromise. I mean, I still think we should hold out for common sense and common courtesy, but I recognize that there's more than a bit of idealism in my attitude. matching our visual tone to that of reliable sources will go a long way in that direction, and is far easier to apply. --Ludwigs2 16:46, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Common sense while sounding nice is generally unworkable as its very difficult to get people to agree what it means - especially on Wikipedia, where we have a multi-cultural project with people from different backgrounds. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 16:57, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Oh, it's not primarily about multi-culturalism - I suspect there's far less cultural diversity amongst the editors participating here than we would like to think. mostly this is philosophical/emotional conflicts over where Wikipedia stands with respect to the ever-present tensions that exist between the individual and the collectivity. Wikipedia editors tend to be stark liberal-individualists who object to anything they perceive as an undesirable social constraint on their behavior, and take desperately strong stances against positions construed as repressively conservative. However, we forget that the vast majority of our readers are social moderates who have a healthy respect for a broad range of conventional mores and standards. As the foundation resolution suggests, the average reader doesn't want to be nonplussed by a wikipedia article: They want to get whatever information they after and not have their senses assaulted by things that anyone with common sense would recognize as unnecessary.

Common sense usually asserts itself naturally. However, on topics like this where bunches of people get their goats up, well… As they say, common sense is often the first thing sacrificed on the alters of the gods of certitude. --Ludwigs2 17:27, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

I think an approach which says "lets follow the sources" is only going to lead to interminable discussions about which sources we should follow and why sources that depict Mohammed don't count, for whatever reason. --FormerIP (talk) 17:51, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Why do you think that? What's the evidence? -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:55, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

It's a prophecy rather than an observation. Flicking through Google books, there are sources that refer to M but don't contain a lot of images of any kind. So the first argument is about whether these tell us very much. Then there are some that do seem to have taken an editorial decision no to show pictures of M. So the second argument is about whether or not it is a breach of NOTCENSORED to take sources that censor themselves as a guide. Then there are sources which do feature images of Mohammaed. I don't yet know what the argument against relying on these is. --FormerIP (talk) 18:08, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

I would have thought that books would be likely to include some images or calligraphy even if only on the front cover. If they don't include any imagery or calligraphy or anything then it may well be legitimate to exclude them.

If they are clearly censoring themselves there seems no particularly good reason to exclude them - they are one part of the source makeup along with all the others.

If the percentage not using any imagery or calligraphy at all is high you could compare and contrast the number of books without any images to books about Jesus or the Buddha without any images - as there is no stigma there.

Additionally - while it is less serious - a comparison of which sources covered the danish cartoon controversy with images of them, and which didn't is also useful - that shows how our news sources cover Muhammad. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:15, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't think it would be practical to go as far as counting the number of books that depict various religious figures. Imagine how many books you would have to survey.

I'm also not aware that anyone has an issue with including caligraphy or abstract representations in the article. If a lot of sources use them, that doesn't really lead anywhere except to confirm that it's appropriate for us to do that surely?

All the suggestion of surveying sources will give us is examples of one kind vs examples of another. Which should we then prefer? --FormerIP (talk) 18:28, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

I would have thought we could balance the amount of calligraphy against the number of real images, and how those images are presented based on the sources. If (say) 10% of our sources use images of muhammad's face, 20% use flame images, 20% use veiled images and 50% use calligraphy then we can go with 5 pieces of calligraphy, 2 veiled images, 2 flame images and an unveiled image, or something else that's roughly in proportion.

Obviously we won't find all the sources, and its likely to some extent that our sample will be bias one way or another, but it should be a reasonable sample. Jayen466, who looks to have found a lot of sources already looks to have presented evidence pointing in both directions.

I would say that we should try and have at least one image in each of the categories, unless the percentage using such imagery is extremely low. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:36, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

It's a meaningless exercise. You get the ratio you're looking for according to the methodological choices you make (primarily what types of source you choose to survey and in what relative proportions). --FormerIP (talk) 20:33, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Not really, even if I was obsessed with pushing a POV there would be nothing stopping you finding reliable sources to add to the list which backup your ideological viewpoint. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:50, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes, which is why I referred above to "interminable discussions". It would just degenerate into each of us arguing that the other was taking into account the wrong sources, which is something that would have no objective answer.--FormerIP (talk) 23:00, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

I really don't think it will be a massive issue. If it is then we can take the case to mediation. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 23:08, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

FormerIP, NOTCENSORED does not override NPOV. That is even stated in NOTCENSORED itself. If we have sources that do contain material other sources do not, we try to balance the overall pool of sources, presenting material in due proportion to its prominence. --JN466 21:11, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

NPOV doesn't extend to giving satisfaction to religious viewpoints. But that aside, I see no problem in principle with discussing the inclusion and exclusion of different images. I just don't think this method of doing it promises any sort of solution, because it is question-begging and open to enormous variance depending on exactly how you choose to carry it out. It can give you any answer you want it to. --FormerIP (talk) 21:21, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Why on earth would that be? NPOV means we have to be neutral and its non-negotiable. It doesn't say that any particular viewpoint can be ignored. NPOV can be frustrating, but it is non-negotiable. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:50, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes, NPOV says we should balance all viewpoints in their proper proportion, and has no provision for excluding viewpoints of a particular type (there's nothing there that says we ignore religious viewpoints). Plus, we assume that editors are going to try to discuss things fairly; an editor can reason his way to any answer he wants in amny kind of discussion if s/he tries hard enough. We can't start from the perspective that editors are going to lie and cheat to get what they want, otherwise we'll never get anywhere. --Ludwigs2 23:08, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

FormerIP, you seem to have noticed yourself, from your comments above, that images of Muhammad are not terribly common in RS, and that many sources do without such images altogether. We needn't worry whether that is because these images are marginal phenomena of no cultural significance in Islam, whether it is to avoid offence, whether it is a combination of the two, or whether some other reason is involved. We simply note that this is so, and do not give them more prominence here than they have in sources – just like we don't make most of an article's text about something that is not a main concern of reliable sources. That's what NPOV means. --JN466 01:20, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Jayen, we have a difference of opinion here. From my flick through Google books, I think images of Muhammad are fairly common in RS, although some RS also decline to use them. Perhaps we have not looked at the same sources.

Wikipedia routinely excludes or marginalises religious viewpoints per WP:FRINGE and WP:PRIMARY. I would think that this is uncontroversial.

I call the proposed method "question-begging" because it seems to be presented as an alternative approach to censorship. But I doubt that it can be whilst at the same time delivering the result you are after.

Wikipedia is not censored, and can be distinguished in this respect from many of the sources it is based on. There is clear consensus, with regard to this specific issue, that Wikipedia should not practice censorship. To my mind, that isn't an invitation for us to moderate our censorship, but to practice none whatsoever.

So, there is no validity to an approach that attempts to ascertain the average level of censorship in sources and then try to force that on Wikipedia as a standard to be followed. It would be a terrible mistake to think of this as an application of NPOV. NPOV attempts to ensure that our content is unbiased, not that our behaviour as editors should conform to an average standard.

It follows from this that any attempt to base the image content of an article on the image content of sources which are routinely censored goes against WP policy unless those sources which are censored are excluded from the survey. I appreciate that you guys would not be interested in such a survey. So I would suggest that the best thing would be not to carry out any survey.--FormerIP (talk) 01:33, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, how would you suggest we differentiate between due weight and censorship? Because anyone can come with any idea that has taken their fancy and claim that the only reason that idea is not as prominent in sources as it is in his own mind is due to censorship, and therefore his valuation of the idea's importance should take precedence over the weight it has in reliable sources. That way lies madness, and it's simply not how we work. When we do encounter such arguments, we call them what they are: POV pushing. --JN466 02:26, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

No, because in this case it is completely uncontroversial to state that some sources are censored (i.e. it is nothing to do with "in his own mind"). These sources are of no relevance in determining how information in Wikipedia should be presented.--FormerIP (talk) 02:37, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Citation needed. What you don't seem to understand is that images were rare in the first place, and those that existed were made for a fairly small number of individuals, and viewed in non-public settings. They lacked wider cultural significance even in their own time. I'll leave you with what Jimbo said: "To be very very specific rather than abstract, we should be careful not to allow political views held by almost all Wikipedians (in a particular language) to distract us from the demands of NPOV. So as an example, if reliable sources suggest that depictions of Muhammad are rare, we shouldn't as a "political act" shove a bunch of them in just to prove some kind of case against censorship - if we do so, then we misrepresent history." You don't seem to have any qualms about the latter, just a lot of misplaced enthusiasm for the former, and a fatal lack of the requisite basic knowledge to tell the difference. ;) Cheers, --JN466 03:25, 4 December 2011 (UTC

Jayen466, my understanding is that a limited number of images would appear in the "Depictions of Muhammad" section, possibly from the Night Journey or the Ship of Faith. Since this is currently an active international area of scholarship, well represented in WP:RS, the issue of rarity is not applicable (any such claims make no direct reference to secondary sources and could in principle be applied to all art produced under patronage). I hope that the decision on the limited use of images, within an appropriate context, to which Resolute, Anthonyhcole, you, myself and others agreed has not been abandoned. Mathsci (talk) 09:55, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

I would hope that if we have to go for the source finding approach that the data would allow that, and if we include news sources I think its extremely unlikely that such imagery will be used so infrequently that we using that imagery can't be justified, however if we do go for the source finding approach and the percentage that use such images is so small that it can't be justified (say ~1% of sources use unveiled imagery, and we want to include 20 images) then we'd unfortunately have to skip them. Explicitly looking up the sources and following the results advantage and disadvantage is that we have to follow the result. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 13:02, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Mathsci, I stand by that compromise proposal, for precisely the reasons you outline. I tried to implement it twice [53][54], based on majority support here on this talk page. On each occasion I was reverted by FormerIP, who had never before made a single edit to this article, or any of its talk pages. [55][56] --JN466 13:15, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for that reassurance, Jayen466. As for Eraserhead1's comments, unless a secondary source has made those statistical estimates about historical images or even phrased issues in such anachronistic terms, it is pure WP:OR for wikipedians to attempt to do so. Mathsci (talk) 16:07, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

If we're going to list a whole bunch of sources and see what they do we will be making a statistical analysis of their result - one way or another. That's not OR, far from it. If only a tiny percentage of the time they use such imagery then it would be WP:UNDUE weight to include them. If its something that is being covered by a lot of researchers I highly doubt that would be an issue. I am happy to accept that my use of '1%' wasn't necessarily sensible, but I'm not sure how else to express my point. -- Eraserhead1<talk> 18:29, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

If you're referring to Islamic scholarship, a statistical survey of that kind would indeed be original research. No wikipedian is in a position to make any judgements or weightings for such sources. There are many academic books and journal articles, possibly in Arabic, Farsi, French, German, Italian, Turkish, etc, which are inaccessible and impossible to evaluate. Similarly the Shahmanah project[57] cannot be assessed by wikipedians, statistically or otherwise. Content is never based on statistical surveys of this kind: one good source can be enough. Mathsci (talk) 19:20, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

How else can we look at our sources overall and see how they show images of Muhammad? Because looking at our sources overall to see what they do is exactly what we're trying to achieve here and what I'm saying. Unless you look at multiple sources and see what they do (and therefore make some level of statistical inference) I don't see how you can ever argue WP:DUE unless its blindly obvious. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:34, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

That is a flawed argument and has always been a flawed argument though. We don't need to follow "what reliable sources do" in order to use images in this article. That is not how image usage has EVER worked on this project and it is not something that is going to be blindly adopted now just because you and Ludwigs are STILL harping about "offense to Muslim". And speaking of you two, I find it rather deplorable that there is edit-warring and badgering of other users going on on their talk page. Your comments on Alanscottwalker's talk page are without merit. Tarc (talk) 20:41, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, that's not what Ludwigs, myself, Jimbo Wales, or Jayen466 thinks with regards to this case. And going through the sources to find out what they say is exactly how the Arbitration committee intends to solve the pro-life/pro-choice naming dispute, and it has been used to great effect in other perennial naming disputes such as China/People's Republic of China and Burma/Myanmar.

Following sources may not produce the answer you most desire, but it produces a solution that everyone can accept. If you don't like the solution of going through sources, or Resolute's compromise bring something else to the table. Obviously its a bit more complex with images as we have to see how our sources balance their image use, but I fail to see how it won't produce a workable compromise in fairly short order - and hopefully without having to take the case to mediation/arbitration.

I would obviously prefer Resolute's compromise as its less work, but if that isn't acceptable this seems like the next best option. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:30, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

PS following WP:DUE and WP:NPOV which I am arguing here has nothing to do with offensiveness beyond what our sources consider, which is ultimately up to them, as it is on all matters for which we rely on sources - i.e. basically everything in the whole project. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:53, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

well, even though it's not my ideal, I think there's more than enough consensus for this compromise position that you all worked out. I'm going to edit it back in. --Ludwigs2 16:03, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

And I will revert. There is also much support for retaining at least one of the "History of the World" images and perhaps one of the Ottoman. Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:16, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

That is of course your choice. but you'd best provide a good rationale for reverting a consensus decision here on this talk page, and it would probably be a good idea for you to re-read wp:tendentious editing first. --Ludwigs2 16:40, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

You don't get to declare a consensus, when things are under discussion. The proposal by Resolute was in particular prosed as open ended in several respects, asking for further discussion in several particulars, so there is no final work done here. Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:27, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

If you want to avoid being disruptive you either need to walk away or propose an alternative serious step forward. Given 500,000 words have been written about this its clear the status quo isn't going to be enough. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:32, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

I am sure I did the right thing there and in the interests of the project but I did not enjoy doing it, or the controversy. What I am sure of is it's not me or the editors who have spoken that will have to be satisfied with what comes on this page, it will be the wider project. Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:19, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

We certainly shouldn't be shoving images into the article to prove any point. Or removing them. But we shouldn't be looking at censored sources as a model. --FormerIP (talk) 03:29, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

FormerIP: I see no evidence that we are dealing with any 'censored' sources here. I'm afraid you're going to have to demonstrate that a source is censored rather than merely opine about it. And please keep in mind that the current system for deciding these things is broken - I mean, a four-year long dispute over these Muhammad images, with no resolution in sight? That is not an effective system. Jayen's approach may require some discussion to hash out details, but at least it's likely to have reach some sort of conclusion in short order. It's senseless to complain about the potential difficulties of a new approach when the other approach is a complete and utter mess. --Ludwigs2 07:09, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

The censorship discussions have not personally interested me, mainly because I view this as whether the images produced serve our purposes in illustrating a biography, which obviously books with no pictures don't. But although it was not a biography and not I guess directly on point, I did dimly recall an episode which suggests that censorship (or extraneous concerns) plays a role in scholarly publications of images of Muhammad. The decision was by Yale University to remove all images, from a scholarly study, after expert consultation: "The book, “The Cartoons That Shook the World,” should not include the 12 Danish drawings that originally appeared in September 2005. What’s more, they [experts consulted by Yale] suggested that the Yale press also refrain from publishing any other illustrations of the prophet that were to be included, specifically, a drawing for a children’s book; an Ottoman print; and a sketch by the 19th-century artist Gustave Doré of Muhammad being tormented in Hell, an episode from Dante’s “Inferno” that has been depicted by Botticelli, Blake, Rodin and Dalí." Yale Press Bans Images of Muhammad in New Book Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:33, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Alan: academic presses are incredibly rigid about the issue of intellectual freedom; an academic press which gets a reputation for excluding pertinent information (much less indulging in active censorship) will not be an academic press for long, and will damage the reputation for scholarship of the university that it is associated with. It doesn't happen, period. If a Tier 1 like Yale chooses not to show such images you can rest assured that there is a solid academic reason for the exclusion that has nothing to do with censorship.

Besides, if you start asserting that our most reputable scholarly sources are untrustworthy, then you might as well dispose of wp:V, wp:RS, and wp:NPOV. At that point you are basically giving up on the notion of Wikipedia as a tertiary source and turning it into a primary source based on your own understanding of 'truth'. Is that where the project is headed?

Still waiting on FormerIP to justify his claim of censorship… --Ludwigs2 16:17, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

It was a huge controversy when Yale did that and they were called out for impinging upon academic freedom by the Professor's Association. They said they removed the images based on fear of violence. So, it was a problem in this particular area: images of Muhammad, not all areas. Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:29, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

If in fact this is the case, then Yale Press stops being a reliable source for this article. so we ignore them and look at others. You cannot use one case of censorship (assuming this actually is the case) to question the reliability of all academic sources, not withiout destroying the very fabric of Wikipedai in the process. --Ludwigs2 17:00, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

I am not clear what you want a cite to but if it's the head of the Prof's association statement it is here: Academic Freedom Abridged at Yale Press Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:48, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

I severely doubt, without extraordinary levels of evidence that Yale would engage in censorship. One reliable source isn't enough - even if it is the New York Times - and that article doesn't make it clear that censorship was the reasoning for it. If it can be shown that Yale engaged in censorship here then I agree that we shouldn't treat them as a reliable source for this article. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:24, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Exercises for the interested reader: (a) Find the wikipedia article about this book and the controversy, with a whole series of sources and commentaries by Islamic experts. (b) Find other places where this particular point has been discussed on wikipedia. (c) Explain why this is now being discussed for an nth time, where n is a large and tiring number. Mathsci (talk) 18:36, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree we've talked about this a lot :(. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:54, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Mathsci, I am sure it has been talked about on those pages because it was a pretty (in)famous case. Since it deals with images of Muhammad it seems pertinent, here in this discussion, too.Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:40, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

This doesn't help in any way. Almost all these arguments are outside wikipedia policy. Eraserhead1's claim to be representing the views of Jayen466 and other editors is incorrect. I confirmed this by asking a direct question of Jayen466 above. If Eraserhead1 can produce books which discuss the "depiction of Muhammad" (the section under discussion) without accompanying images, that might be significant. As for Yale University Press, what relevance do side issues with The Cartoons that Shook the World have here? (See also exercises (b) and (c).) Mathsci (talk) 05:57, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I was replying to another point. Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:28, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

@Mathsci, I think that's a good point. I can't think of a way to cover it. I retract that part of my argument. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:00, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

That is an encouraging sign that we are gradually approaching consensus on Resolute's compromise proposal ... Mathsci (talk) 19:07, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Section Break 2

In reply to "And these would be that, since these are the images that have been produced about his life in reliable sources."

There is no a-priori requirement that these be artists' imaginations of scenes of his life, or that we should not show anything else (cf. William Shakespeare, Goethe). If sources frequently show something else, so should we. Many English-language books on Muhammad (not to speak of Arabic or Indonesian ones ...) do not show any such scenes at all, preferring different imagery representative of mainstream Islamic art and architecture. Muslims have different sorts of monuments – where Westerners might build a statue, they produce representations of Muhammad's words. That's the format monuments to Muhammad take in Islamic art. --JN466 05:57, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

There are reams of images of words in this article. This article is also not about monuments. Alanscottwalker (talk) 10:59, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

(1) Well, appropriately so. Muhammad is famous for founding a word-based religion, much more profoundly word-based than any other of the major religions. Do you understand what that means, or would you like me to explain it to you? (2) Of course the article is not about monuments, but our biographies of people for whom monuments exist regularly show them. There are probably more monuments to Muhammad (word-based, not figurative ones) than any other historical person. No other person's words have been reproduced in so many public places. --JN466 14:20, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

"more profoundly word-based than any other of the major religions"...isn't this an argument for removing all images from the article? --FormerIP (talk) 19:42, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

If you want to make that argument, feel free. I'll be opposing you, based on NPOV. --JN466 20:33, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Okay, let me put it another way. Bases on NPOV, is it an argument for removing any images? --FormerIP (talk) 20:52, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it is an argument for removing or replacing some images. The fact that Islam is a word-based religion has led to copious amounts of word-based art taking the place fulfilled by figurative art in other religions. Quranic inscriptions in and on mosques e.g. are the direct functional equivalent to Christian iconography in churches. Mosques are not decorated with images of Muhammad as churches are decorated with images of Jesus, but are decorated with Muhammad's quotes—the word of God according to Islamic belief—executed as calligraphic art. Reliable sources naturally reflect the prevailing aesthetic. They include examples of the available wealth of such art on their covers and pages. Figurative Islamic depictions of Muhammad have always been rare, and rejected by many Muslims. Many English-language sources on Muhammad don't use figurative depictions of Muhammad at all. That may be by conscious design (because they're written by Muslims and/or are at least partly targeted at a mainstream Muslim audience), or because figurative art is simply too marginal in present-day Islam to merit their attention. Instead, they show calligraphy, including masonry work or hilyeler, architectural images, or pictures of muslims at prayer, because those are the iconic images conveying what the religion Muhammad founded looks and feels like. On the other hand, a significant proportion of (mostly Western) sources do feature at least some figurative images, sometimes because they're pretty and make an appealing cover image for Western readers, and sometimes because they are discussed in the text as being of interest to art historians, or in the context of modern controversies about images. What this means is that there is clearly no NPOV mandate to exclude figurative images. They occur, for one reason or another, in a large enough number of sources. However, there is equally clearly no mandate for them to be the dominant type of Islamic illustration we should use. The role they have to play within our set of Islamic images is a secondary one. As it is at present, they are too dominant relative to mainstream Islamic images; hence the proposal. --JN466 22:11, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Clarifying my position

SCOTUS Muhammad - Muhammad depicted among history's great lawbringers on the frieze surrounding Washington DC's Supreme Court building

For the record, in response to Resolute's comments in the above thread, regarding the section on Western reception, I said, I favour replacing the present "Muhammad preaches" with a good picture of the SCOTUS Muhammad, as the latter's physical place says a lot about Western reception. I agree there is room for another image in that section and would favour a contemporary (medieval) illustration of the medieval European view. Perhaps "Wife scolding the drunken Muhammad" or "Faith stepping on Muhammad." [58] They show the disrespectful tone without the ghastliness of the Dante illustrations. (Dante illustrations = illustrations of Muhammad being tortured in hell.)

I still hold this view. Such images would be highly relevant examples of what's being discussed in the section (the shift from demonisation and contempt in the Middle Ages to tolerance and respect in the Modern period).

This gives me an opportunity to clarify my position vis a vis some others in this discussion. I argue that, where a controversial image has little or no relevant didactic value, its lack of real educational value should be taken into account and it should be removed, replaced by something uncontroversial that has the same didactic value or replaced by an image that has real relevant educational use. This, I believe, applies to most of the present figurative portrayals of Muhammad in this article. Where an image is controversial but has significant real relevant educational value, it should be used. This, I believe, applies to the SCOTUS Muhammad and medieval depictions in the section on Western reception.

My position seems to diametrically oppose Johnbod's: include figurative portrayals that have no direct educational use relevant to the sections that contain them (anachronistic artists' impressions add nothing to the readers' understanding of the section topic); and exclude images that are highly pertinent examples (not just illustrations, but examples - understanding this distinction is essential to understanding my position) of Western reception from that section because they are controversial.

As I explained in my discussion with Resolute referred to above, following my preference would result in just as many figurative portrayals of Muhammad in this article. They wouldn't be mostly the pretty Persian and Turkish ones presently favoured by John and Mathsci, and one or two would be decidedly more offensive than those presently illustrating the article, but unlike most of the current image use, all would be solidly justified on the basis of relevance and real educational value. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 07:21, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

2 questions

Just a couple of quick questions for me. Is there a reason to have 2 separate timelines for the important events in the life of muhammad? We have one as mecca one as medina (I am aware there is a large difference in attitude and what happened.) I was wondering if there was any solid reason as to why they aren't combined instead of devoted to two separate places.

Also while it is an important event do we need this picture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mount_Uhud.jpg? If we do decide to keep it is there any artist renderings more in line with the time period that might serve as a better one? (i.e. like the picture of muhammad not looking like him I very much doubt the town looked like this in the 6th century.

Again just random thoughts I come up with as I am trying to figure out a better way to display the article. Tivanir2 (talk) 21:27, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Bueler? Tivanir2 (talk) 18:51, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

No comments in 4 days and change going to be bold. Tivanir2 (talk) 21:56, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Thoughts comments complaints? Tivanir2 (talk) 22:02, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I was about to revert you for the unexplained blanking (lack of edit summary) until I saw this section. What is your objection to that picture? It isn't in the way of anything, it isn't crowding anything, it isn't competing for space. I don't have a problem with its removal, but if you'd rather have a picture to replace it, why not keep the old one there as a placeholder? ~Amatulić (talk) 22:06, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

That is a good option to. I have no issues with a revert I just haven't had time to dig up any portraits of what it historically looked like. I am fine with it either way, just hadn't received any info one way or the other so I figured I would give it a shot and see if anyone wanted to keep it for now. Tivanir2 (talk) 22:08, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

There was a better alternative at one time. It's unfortunate that the Commons File:Gabal Uhud.jpg was changed by the uploader from a beautiful picture of the mountain with no modern foreground artifacts to a nondescript close-up of that mountain. You can still see the old version on that page in the upload history, but since it exists only in the archives I don't think it's available for using in articles. There's another good picture here: http://www.2mfm.org/pictures/img26.htm but unfortunately not available for free use. ~Amatulić (talk) 22:15, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't see any reason why the other can't be put under another name. It was the same user that uploaded both - his own work he says - & it was probably a mistake that he overwrote the old name with the new pic. Johnbod (talk) 09:48, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Yep, its public domain. I've been WP:BOLD and created the originally named File:Gabal Uhud 2.jpg and added it to the article. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 09:09, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

• And nothing personal, but I will have to remove it. Please read the image use policy.[59] You cannot utilize such an image with a website or other such markings on it, unless specifically warranted by the content in the image (for instance it is a logo where such is part of the logo). Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | ^TK/_CN 07:52, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Damn :(. I should have seen that. Quite right to remove it. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:07, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Done so with regret. :-( I like the image. Do you think perhaps you can ask the image creator to upload one without the watermarked logo? Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | ^TK/_CN 08:11, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't believe the uploader holds the copyright to the image. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:26, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Mediation

As suggested at WT:NOT I have proposed taking this images case forward to formal mediation. About 600,000 words have been spent discussing this matter over a period of 4 years on this page alone, and the matter has spilt out into other pages as well - leading to a 100,000 word discussion at WT:NOT which is even by itself extremely long.

The primary advantage of this escalation is that it should allow some sort of decision to be made which doesn't involve continued discussion about this topic forever, and it certainly seems like its well worth a try. Mediation currently seems like the best bet as this is a content dispute and not a conduct dispute - but if conduct is made apparent to be an issue then the case can be escalated to the arbitration committee. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:44, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't see any need for this initiative, since there seems to be a consensus on this page for the use of a limited number of images for this article (as described by Jayen466 for example). Nobody has so far objected to that proposal on this talk page. It is true that various other users have been arguing in very general terms about wikipedia policy elsewhere, but that does not affect this particular discussion. Please look at the discussions on this page about the Prophet Muhammad's Night Journey before making proposals of this kind, which do not seem helpful. As the saying goes, if it's not broke, why fix it? Mathsci (talk) 20:55, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

I tend to agree, especially as in the case of one editor involved this would seem to amount to feeding the troll. Nor would mediation prevent continued discussion, one can be sure of that. The "not censored" aspect of the matter can really be discussed in the abstract, but there are many other sides to it. Johnbod (talk) 21:08, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Actually it would stop further discussion. Once mediation has got a result you can point out to the new person that the discussion had gone to mediation and that the result was a compromise. If you say that you don't have to engage in any other discussion with the person for at least a few years.

If we pretend that the only discussion on WP:NOTCENSORED has been at WT:NOT then that topic (with regards to this article) is definitely ready to go to some level of mediation as well.

If you guys ultimately refuse to engage in mediation I'll be disappointed as that will change the matter into a conduct issue, also involving you guys. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:39, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Consensus is already abundantly clear on the matter, there is nothing to actually mediate on the issue of Muhammad and images. Tarc (talk) 21:59, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

If consensus was ever "abundantly clear" on something you wouldn't have a 600 thousand word discussion. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:30, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't think this comment of yours at WT:NOT is a very good basis to bring anything to mediation (beside the fact that you have not stated what proposition you want to mediate):Mediation will make it blindly obvious who those editors are though, and then Arbcom can sanction them. --Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:29, 26 November 2011 (UTC) - Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:31, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Eraser, I suspect you do not understand want mediation is for or how it works. Also in agreement with Johnbod and Mathsci's statements above. I've taken on mediation cases, and I can assure you, it works differently and is for different purposes than what you and some at NOT seem to think. Best, Rob ROBERTMFROMLI | ^TK/_CN 23:17, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

As with others, I do not think mediation is a valid next step. It does not exist as a forum to try and overturn a consensus that is against you. Resolute 01:44, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Look guys we've written six hundred thousand words on this talk page. This doesn't look like a matter that is getting resolved by this discussion by any stretch of the imagination.

Lets not forget that only a few weeks ago when this issue was taken to the arbitration committee that this was a content issue. I highly doubt that that has changed, and if its a content issue mediation is definitely the right approach.

That said the discussion above (which I hadn't seen) looks like it might have got results, so we can definitely see if that is enough. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:30, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

There was an agreement about the use of a limited (probably reduced) number of images between Jayen466, Anthonyhcole and me, amongst others. There has been compromise and flexibility; and in this case criteria have emerged, depending on secondary sources, for deciding when images are appropriate and where they should be placed. That is the normal process by which consensus is formed. Those discussions have not ended. On Meta Jayen466 is also discussing aspects of the proposed image filter (in both English and German). I don't see an impasse here at all, so please allow time for the Night Journey discussions to continue. There is no rush. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 08:49, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

I came at this from the discussion on WT:NOT which appeared to be about the same topic and which has become significantly less productive and there has been a lot of refusal to compromise there.

It looks like the discussions here are progressing surprisingly well, that wasn't made clear enough to me at WT:NOT - if I misread the discussion there I apologise.

If the discussion above doesn't resolve itself reasonably quickly (say ~3 months) then I'll come back and we can discuss escalating it later. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:56, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

FWIW I think secondary sources is the right approach in general. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:57, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

There's a difference between a situation being resolved and a situation being resolved to your satisfaction. Something to keep in mind for when you consider the situation three months from now. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 19:21, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Eraserhead1: I dont think that matters. Numerous secondary sources have been brought up that use the images we use. NUMEROUS times. When that happens a handful of ones that dont are brought up as reasons to remove the images. That battle was already won in favor of leaving the images - but those who are using that argument to remove it still won't let that argument drop, as if a handful of sources outweighs dozens more. In addition, some have even went so far as to imply that "this sect of Islam should be ignored - and this other sect doesnt do this, so let's follow their lead" - which obviously we can't do. That'd be like picking one sect of Christianity as "the true Christianity". Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | ^TK/_CN 20:58, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Consensus can change. And while it is one "sect" who are mainly offended it does cover 90% of muslims, its not the same as christian sects, which are generally more numerous. If we need to do a serious source count and we can come up with a good way to count them - then so be it, I think that's a different but still good way of solving this. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:30, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

• Why would we have mediation? We have a good compromise proposal above, the one by Resolute, that most of us can sign up to. I believe Ludwigs2 would be fine with that too. --JN466 21:36, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

• While I might be able to sign on to that proposal as well, I am leaning to believe it is a stopgap measure when efforts to continue this beyond said proposal are well underway.[60] To be 100% honest, that makes it seem like the compromise is nothing more than a distraction until the efforts to remove all "offensive" images continues. Now, while no one may have that exact intent in mind, you and I can probably agree that such will be the exact results of such. Kinda makes it all seem pointless. Honestly, if an outsider looked at this, don't you think the first thing they'd see was "Look a truce (compromise)!!! Oh, wait... the next attack is already being planned by this side." - again, whether that's the intended reasoning or not; we know that will be the end result. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | ^TK/_CN 21:46, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Well, I herewith put it in writing, linkable to for all the time Wikipedia continues to exist, that I will defend this compromise as a reasonable one, and will not take any active part in overturning it. ;) --JN466 23:16, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
    • Same here - and I'll put the page indefinitely on watch. I don't believe mediation would produce a significantly different result from the one suggested above by Resolute. Even though I was extremely keen to have mediation in this discussion given Resolutes proposal is basically what they will produce, ±1 image or so and its a lot of hassle too what's the value?
    • If you can get the established editors to accept it, coupled with the extremely strongly worded templates I think that will stop or highly limit discussion. It would be good to tone those templates down a bit if there isn't a flood of discussion, but that's a trivial issue in comparison. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:30, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
      • Additionally - even though it isn't his reasoning - I'm perfectly happy that the images suggested by Resolute, ±1 image or so, fits the balance reasonably well between avoiding offending people for no reason, and the value that images bring to the article even given a future rule change to WP:NOTCENSORED that has a plausible chance of passing. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:47, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Discussion at WT:NOT

There is currently an extensive ongoing discussion at Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not about a proposal that is intended to affect the choice of image(s) on this article. Your comments in the discussion would be welcome. Thryduulf (talk) 20:41, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Quranic inscriptions

As mentioned above, we currently don't have a single example of a Quranic inscription on a mosque, despite the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of such inscriptions throughout the Islamic world. The Quran is the message brought by Muhammad. To illustrate the impact he has had, we should at least have one or two such images. Would anyone like to propose one? Many are significant architectural art in their own right. --JN466 13:08, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Too off-topic for a biography. Would we illustrate Jesus with a similar inscription? One or two would be fine for Quran. We have the name of Muhammad on a mosque (last time I looked) which is more relevant. Johnbod (talk) 15:20, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Not sure if that would be considered completely relevant IMO. While he was the founder of the religion he also did other things. In the Islam article it would make sufficient sense, but unless the image was a mosque of the time I don't know if it would make sense, as this isn't the article for the Quran or the religion. Tivanir2 (talk) 15:23, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

I like this idea. Islam and Christianity are different and should have different images used. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:02, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

They are different but jesus is best known for the bible and scriptures, but it would still be something I consider as almost irrelevent to the biography part of the main article. In the quranic and islamic sections it makes perfect sense and I am all for inclusion but I don't see how it makes sense here. Tivanir2 (talk) 22:14, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

While I agree with Eraserhead1 that there are differences between Islam and Christianity, I'd posit, as Johnbod and others above did, that such isn't relevant to this article, since this article is not the article on Islam or Christianity - it's a biography. And regardless, I think this article needs less images - not more. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | ^TK/_CN 23:44, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

The vast majority of images in Jesus are Christian, we should use at least some of the typical imagery used by Muslims to show Muhammad. That muslims don't have the same artistic traditions as Christians means that calligraphy is appropriate to include. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:42, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Some thoughts on that: (1) Calligraphy is NOT an image of Muhammad. It is an image used to avoid depicting how Muhammad looked. (2) Find other images of Jesus. Far as I know, they all look roughly the same. (3) there ARE Muslim images in the article - but the debate used is that they apparently aren't Muslim enough/true Muslim/etc, which isn't for us to say. :-( ROBERTMFROMLI | ^TK/_CN 09:38, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for that insight, Eraserhead. If you read the 600,000 words on this page (you keep telling us), you will find that most of them are discussing that very point. There is only one non-Muslim image currently in the article (though some people want to increase that). Johnbod (talk) 11:58, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but I believe all the images currently on the page are of Persian origin, and the Persian/Shia tradition, while important, is only followed by about 10% or so of muslims, it would be like having all our imagery of Jesus at Jesus to be from the Eastern Orthodoxy denomination (about 230-300 million worshippers out of 2.1 billion Christians) - personally I would consider that really quite odd. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:47, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Wrong, wrong wrong. See above or actually look at the image files, why don't you? Johnbod (talk) 20:32, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Which images in the current article aren't from the country currently known as Iran? -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:34, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Please forget all about religion for a moment. Let's just look at this in purely secular terms. Imagine an author whose book has made such a tremendous cultural impact that quotations from it, in countries spanning about a fifth of the globe, are everywhere to be found on public buildings. For argument's sake, let's imagine that Shakespeare, himself a giant of world literature, had had such a defining influence on English-speaking culture that you could not find a single building devoted to learning anywhere in the English-speaking world whose masonry was not adorned with quotes like "To be or not to be, that is the question: Whether 'tis Nobler in the mind to suffer The Slings and Arrows of outrageous Fortune, Or to take Arms against a Sea of troubles, And by opposing end them ...", "Shall I compare thee to a summer's day? Thou art more lovely and more temperate ...", "All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players: they have their exits and their entrances; and one man in his time plays many parts", often reproduced in full chapter length, running around the entire circumference of a building. Would you really argue that showing examples of such adornments, demonstrating the tremendous impact Shakespeare has had on English-speaking culture, would be undue in our biography of Shakespeare? --JN466 13:18, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

I would start by considering several points: are there other articles which deal with his legacy or "impact on culture", because the primary mission of this article is his biography, making the image less pertinent (mosques and their architecture and adornment is certainly a vast topic, by themselves), generally other topics beside his life, should have limited illustration (perhaps none) and text here, because his life is so important on its own; are there other text or images in the biography, illustrating or explaining the importance of his words or writings, if so, should those be replaced, expanded, or perhaps yoked together, with your preferred image, or else, just annotated in written form about use on structures (this last seems an especially good way to deal with it since we are talking about words); and is there room in the appropriate place or is an appropriate place important enough to be made, here. But first, I would ask for the image, text, RS and placement that is proposed, and if anything is proposed to be deleted. Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:03, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

In the William Shakespeare biography, we have five paintings illustrating scenes from his plays, and two statues of him – and rightly so. It's a featured article. Quranic inscriptions are the direct cultural equivalent in the case of Muhammad, except that they are thousands of times more common than either statues of Shakespeare, or paintings of his plays. --JN466 18:16, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Also (I just realized this, sorry if I am a little slow) technically we already have something along those lines in this picture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sahadah-Topkapi-Palace.jpg as it shows the muslim profession of faith on one of their buildings. So while it has precedence I also would say that one image should be sufficient if we include it to explain that other writings are common on mosques and buildings in Islamic lands. Tivanir2 (talk) 18:57, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Even under the compromise approach above we have 3 images covering the Persian tradition (~10% of Islam) and only 1 covering the other 90%. We should have some imagery from the Arab world, from South Asia, from Malaysia/Indonesia and ideally from China/central Asia at a minimum. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:05, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

I agree. Note that the Islamic profession of faith is not actually part of the Quran. --JN466 19:11, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Shakespere also contains pictures of him and yes, he was a play write (or impostor, if you've seen the movie). Is there a choice between his picture or his plays in his biography? But I doubt your "direct cultural equivalent" argument is sound, whatever you mean by that: the Qur'an are the words of Allah (according to the "culture") not Muhammad (which is why they are on Mosques). Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:41, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

No-one has actually suggested here that we remove all images of Muhammad from the article, just that our illustration is in some vague proportion to how the images are used - if we have 3 Shia images, and 4 non-Shia images we are still being massively bias in favour of the Shia position - given how much discussion there has been over this that is still a reasonable compromise - but as that's the case you can't really legitimately argue that that's unfair to your position. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:48, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Eraserhead, you seem to be under the misimpression that the, so-called "Persian Tradition" is Shia and Persian, it is not, or not only, it is (also) Sunni and encompasses many different peoples, who are found in many of those places, you list, further up. Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:57, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm sure there are Persians living outside of Persia and Sunni's in Persia. And I'm sure Persia has influence on Islam in central Asia and possibly China, does that really affect the substance of my point? -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:04, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

I think so, as certain of the images were created for non-Persian peoples, who were Sunni. Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:10, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

The ideas in the Quran were expressed by Muhammad. In assessing his influence as a historic personality, we don't have to get into the question of religious faith, and whether the words in the Quran are God's words, or Muhammad's, or both. Seen in secular terms, the Quran is a work composed by Muhammad. And excerpts from that work are found on thousands and thousands of mosques throughout the Islamic world. Calligraphy, not figurative imagery, is the primary medium of Muhammad's artistic reception. People didn't make statues of him, as they did of Shakespeare, or drew images of events told in the Quran (with some exceptions, we know). They reproduced verses from the Quran, endlessly. Why should that be irrelevant to his biography? Islamic art is different; it has taken a different approach. We are not serving the reader by pretending otherwise. --JN466 21:37, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

@Alan, are you arguing that the strength of the Persian influence on Islam is similar to the Catholic influence on Christianity? -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:16, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand the question. Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:18, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

If we go with my "compromise" we'd be having 3 Persian images and 4 non-Persian images, logically to support that position you must think that the Persian influence on Islam is nearly as great as the rest of the Islamic people's put together or something similar to the Catholic influence on Christianity as a whole.

If you are going to argue that the current position, or the compromise above without any calligraphic representations is appropriate you must therefore logically believe that the Persian influence on Islam is greater than the Catholic influence on Christianity.

If you don't believe its influence is that great then you need to change your position. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:24, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

What he's saying is that your using "Persian" the way you do is inaccurate bullshit from every angle (and I would add possibly echoing Sunni anti-Shia rhetoric you have picked up somewhere). Is that clear enough for you? Johnbod (talk) 20:29, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

My apologies for my poor choice of words which comes from not being a muslim. Does my poor use of the word "Persian" in any way affect my point that the vast majority of images in the current article come from the country currently known as Iran? -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:32, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

No, that's still completely wrong. Johnbod (talk) 20:36, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

In what way? -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:40, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Johnbod, please let's try and conduct this conversation civilly. Share your knowledge, and state your sources; don't just tell people they're wrong. --JN466 21:16, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

To the best of my knowledge, it's a tradition in Persian literature (which covered a greater area than modern-day Iran, extending to Afghanistan, Pakistan and parts of India). However, it's a courtly book miniature tradition; wealthy patrons would have manuscripts illustrated by an artist for their private enjoyment. The images were a niche art form; public art (e.g. in mosques) was aniconic even then. The patrons in question were Mongol-influenced Sunnis. Much of the area concerned converted to Shia Islam later, and in Shia Islam popular images of Muhammad can be found today, whereas they're absent in modern Sunni Islam. Calligraphy is widespread throughout the Muslim world, and the prime means of artistic expresssion. --JN466 20:33, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

The best of your knowledge isn't that good Jayen. You don't mention the two Ottoman images. Johnbod (talk) 20:36, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

If we included the two ottoman images, and only kept a single Iranian image, then we'd probably be roughly in cultural balance (other than with a bias towards the Ottomans). Obviously the current article is still untenable and totally out of balance as two ottoman images and one piece of calligraphy still leaves four "Iranian" images, which would only be appropriate if the Iranian influence was as great as that of the catholic church. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:40, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

See page 78–79; page 207–209 --JN466 20:41, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

And yes, we have an Ottoman book miniature, and another one from an Ottoman copy of an Ilkhanate (Persian) work. --JN466 21:19, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Sorry. This "cultural balance" standard is imo, untenable, it's not based in any policy, it's grossly imprecise, it mixes terms with a need for very specialized expertise in every reader and editor, it's possibly entirely wrong, it is extremely ad hoc, and I can't imagine it working either here or anywhere else on the project. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:14, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Exactly. Johnbod (talk) 22:52, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be rather bizarre if on Jesus the majority of our imagery was Eastern Orthodox or if the majority of imagery on Buddha was of Tibetan buddhism? All we are suggesting is following the same line we follow at Jesus and the same line that we follow (mostly - though there is probably too much South Asian stuff - but that's where the religion comes from) at Buddha. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:29, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Has anyone ever tried to culturally balance images at those articles, and what decisions were made and on what basis? Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:39, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

I would imagine it followed from common sense that images from different cultures were needed in balance. If you were taking pictures of churches and someone had taken a lot in the US it would be pretty obvious that some European, Latin American, African and Asian churches were needed as well. The issue with this article is that its way out of kilter with a neutral image balance that covers all of Islam.

Its so obvious that even non-experts such as myself can see that its completely out of balance. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:42, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

But this is a BIOGRAPHY, not a survey of Islam! Actually I think you could make just the same argument for the pictures at Jesus & similar Christian articles. The figurative images (not photos) we currently have are 2 Persian, 2 Turkish, 1 Kashmiri/Indian, 1 Russian. I think we've now lost 2 that were there before. It is agreed that there are many parts of the Islamic world that do not (almost ever) produce images that would be suitable for illustrating this biography. I'm about to go away for 5 days, which is rather a relief. Johnbod (talk) 22:52, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I agree, it is a biography and we are not limited to any culture in illustrating it. I also found, how Eraserhead imagined they settled it on other pages unhelpful. Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:02, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Well except that one of the Turkish pieces is a copy of a Persian work, and the Kashmiri work has at least some connection with Persia, putting the article text and the French description together leads me to believe it was found in Kashmir, but is actually Persian. And its not as if the rest of Islam doesn't use imagery to show Muhammad, they just use calligraphy instead.

And lets not forget Jesus and Buddha are biographies too and they seem to have a reasonable range of images. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 23:06, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

@Alan, other than going against your point of view how was it "unhelpful"? @John, no-one has been uncivil or unreasonable here, I don't know why you are getting so worked up about this. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 23:07, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Because if someone plowed similar ground before we could look at it, but imagining them doing it I found unhelpful.Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:14, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm sure most of the time there would be no controversy about it so it would just get fixed WP:BOLDly - its pretty obvious that we should cover how different Christian traditions view Jesus and how different Buddhist traditions view the Buddha.

I see no problem with a (slight) bias toward Persian imagery, but we shouldn't have half of our 7 images of Muhammad (including the calligraphy) from a Persian background unless it was as influential as the Catholic church is. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 23:25, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

So, even assuming that cultural balance has been achieved on those other articles (a big assumption), you posit that it happened organically and was not by prior agreement. Is that the way forward? Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:36, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Well I don't know if it is a good fit but let's see where discussion goes from here. Also as a side note I am not particularly fond of the idea of churches on the article of Jesus since no churches existed until after his death. That is part of the reason why the bible comments on when he would do his sermons in front of temples. Tivanir2 (talk) 23:11, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

We have a lot of religious art on Jesus that's much newer than he was alive - this picture for example is from the 19th century. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 23:25, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

To this specific dilemma (an "image" of Muhammad for biographical purposes): Frankly, I don't care where people find the images... Persian, Iranian, European, Vulcanian, whatever. I only see two things in this: (1) it's a biography, are we going to have an image/depiction of the subject of the biography? (if yes, proceed to #2) and (2) Is this[61] a person? (No), or does this show how Muhammad was perceieved to look?[62] (NO, it USED to, until it was defaced). Pick an image, from whatever source, that shows an unveiled face and the problems are over. Instead of arguing over where the images were made, simply find a suitable image for this one tiny task... then we can move on to determining what the other images in the article should be.

Now, before this happens, as I know of one or two people who will try this route: I would posit that the first person who now deems we don't need such an image is probably applying a bias based on not wanting an image that depicts how he was perceived to look. A lot of this seems to get right back to that one point. Depictions on other biographies are not problems... but on this biography it's (a) not a problem if it isn't really a depiction, but instead an avoidance of such (such as calligraphy or a defaced image) or (b) suddenly a problem if those aren't being accepted as "substitutes. Again, there's only one or two who I think may try reversing course on this - my opinion on such is thus noted before you choose to take that road. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | ^TK/_CN 23:43, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

I think having an image showing his face in the biography section is a good idea if we can find one. We can make the other stuff balance around it. If you mean the lead image, well the only argument against it would be offensiveness, which I would be inclined to say shouldn't be added - but it is a weaker argument than that discussed in this section.

To add to my previous point, at Jesus we have 20 images of Jesus, we could therefore have ~20 images of Muhammad here, the fact that ~14 of them would be calligraphy should be irrelevant. We could easily stick 12 of the pieces of calligraphy in a gallery. There are two issues here for me, offensiveness, and not covering the content properly. If we aren't covering how muslims view Muhammad in some rough proportion we aren't doing the latter, and thats a much more serious charge than offensiveness ever could be.

If we did that then our 3-4 Persian images would be in about the right ratio - perfect - we'd be at least covering the content properly. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 23:48, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Robert, we've had this discussion, above, in Resolute's compromise proposal, which includes an image that shows Muhammad unveiled. I seem to recall that was a compromise that was acceptable to you, and most everyone else. This section is for discussing whether we should include Quranic inscriptions, given their prevalence throughout the Islamic world. The fact is that Muhammad has been received more through his words than imagined likenesses. We should reflect that; otherwise we're not informing the reader properly about his reception. Cheers, --JN466 00:13, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

No one says that we should be limited to Islamic representations of Muhammad. But if we're showing Islamic religious art, just as we're showing Christian religious art in the Jesus article, we will have to show the most representative types. Quranic inscriptions and other calligraphy are the equivalent of religious paintings in Christianity. Figurative images were rare in Islam. And the idea that because this is a BIOGRAPHY we should not show artistic representations of the work that Muhammad is famous for, when such representations exist in their thousands, and we have examples in Commons, is frankly strange. We show images of Shakespeare's works in his article. We show images of how artists imagined Shakespeare's works. We feature quotes from Shakespeare's works in call-out boxes. But the same thing is not supposed to be alright in Muhammad's biography? How about a call-out box with the light verse? It's one of the most famous ones. --JN466 00:06, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

As Eraserhead keeps praising the balance at Jesus, I've done a count of the "art" images. I make it: 34 European, 1 Chinese, 1 Armenian, 1 Syrian, 1 (Bible card) unknown. Latin & maybe North America, 0, Africa 0 etc. Not that I think that's a problem. I've seen some lame threads on this page, but this one tops the chart, although we're keeping the daily word count high for sure. Johnbod (talk) 01:21, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

I am frankly puzzled how you can argue that Quranic calligraphy should have no place in Muhammad's biography. Can you explain your thinking? --JN466 01:38, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

You find everything puzzling. I have no objections to several images, which we currently have. And that's enough. In fact we currently have nine calligraphic images, which is probably too many (plus 3 more in templates). Including one on a building. I've said above I don't think the choice of Quranic images is very good. They have the obvious disadvantage, in the English Wikipedia, that few people can actually read them! Johnbod (talk) 01:42, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

I make that 6: lead, name, ayah, hilye, shahadah, PBUH. Plus 3 in templates (and we can't really blame Muhammad for those!). It's one of those facts of life that Muhammad wasn't an Englishman, and that his greatest influence is not in the English-speaking world. It doesn't prevent English-language sources on him from showing Arabic writing. Cheers! --JN466 01:57, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Ok, 8 with the 2 Quran images. So 11 with the templates. It's not a case of blaming, but of whether more are needed, as you seem to think. Different ones I would support in some cases. Not being intellible to most readers seriously reduces the illustrative value of the images, as one should not have to explain. Johnbod (talk)

Ayah is one of the Quran images. (You probably counted the seal. I wouldn't call that calligraphy, just foreign language writing.) The fact is, these images are popular in English-language sources. Examples: [63][64][65][66][67][68][69][70] If you go into the Muhammad/Islam section of a bookshop, images like that abound. The calligraphy is beautiful, even if you can't read it. And I can't read any of that writing in the Jesus article either! (I wouldn't mind reducing the size of his name, and the PBUH calligraphy.) Cheers, --JN466 02:22, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

As an aside there should be no issue with classing calligraphy as an illustration/art. We live in a world where a pile of sweets on the floor or a dirty bed counts as art, if that's the case then definitely so is calligraphy (For what its worth I think modern art is generally interesting and thought provoking, so I'm not bashing it). -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:16, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

As an aside if the consensus is to include the image what area would it go in? Tivanir2 (talk) 21:58, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes T, I guess I need to repeat the questions I stated way, way up, "But first, I would ask for the image, text, RS and placement that is proposed, and if anything is proposed to be deleted." Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:26, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

I've been wondering that myself. There is no obvious place; in those places where it would relate to the text (sections on the Quran and depictions), we have too much clutter already Frankly, the three large templates on the right are a pain. The design of the Muhammad template is nothing to write home about, to put it charitably. The Quran template is not that brilliant either; the image is nice enough, but the template itself is so-so. The Islam template is the only one that is beautifully designed. But, worst of all, the three nav templates along the right hand margin all have completely different styles that don't go together, and they take up an awful lot of room. In addition, we have the two timelines, also on the right-hand margin. Alanscottwalker suggested collapsing these, and I agree. Maybe we should look at collapsing some of the other templates too, or throwing them out altogether. In terms of content, they are in part duplicated by internal links in the article, and the nav boxes at the bottom. Thoughts? --JN466 01:25, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

The caption would say something to the effect that calligraphy of Quranic verses plays a very important role in sacred Islamic art, equivalent to that played by images of Christ and the saints in churches, sourced for example to page 120 in Wagtendonk. The image wouldn't replace any of the images currently present, or any of those left after implementation of Resolute's compromise proposal (if we end up going down that route), but be an additional image. --JN466 01:31, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Is there a way to collapse the Quran and Islam boxes to show the main link and image and the rest be a show feature? That might help with space issues and I don't like the idea of shortening or removing them since they pretty much go hand and hand with the biography article but they take up a ton of space. Also do we know if it was common during his life to put inscriptions on buildings or was that something that happened post mortem? If it was more common after he passed away it might do well in the legacy section on impacts. Tivanir2 (talk) 15:00, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

In HTML terms it's trivial, but we might have to change the templates a bit. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 16:16, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

There are basically two sections where Quranic inscriptions would fit: the Quran section, and the Legacy section. --JN466 06:29, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Collapsed timelines per discussion with Jayen on Main Talk page. Alanscottwalker (talk) 01:53, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. That's better already. --JN466 06:27, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Collapse timelines and Islam Box

FYI discussion of this started on main talk page because it did not quite seem to fit here. Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:52, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Resolute's proposal

Let's try this differently. Who is opposed to Resolute's compromise proposal? Here is what the proposal would like. It has a total of 4 figurative images in the article, one in the biography section, two in the depictions section, and one in the European reception section. Another European image, like the SCOTUS image, might be added subsequently. Please give a brief reason for opposing. Thanks. --JN466 06:25, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

I've been lurking here for the most part. In my view, I don't particularly like having no images whatsoever in the section Muhammad's early life. I also don't want images of significant events removed (examples being the revelation from Gabriel or the black stone episode), regardless of whether their inclusion results in someone perceiving "imbalance" in representation of sources or time periods. If depictions of those events have representation mostly from a certain period or culture, so be it; I am skeptical of the arguments that make an NPOV issue of this. ~Amatulić (talk) 19:23, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

I am not sure that the image for the Black stone episode is up for removal (I personally think it's fine). Perhaps Jayen466 could clarify this. Mathsci (talk) 19:31, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

It wasn't in the version that Jayen linked at the top of this section, even though that version devotes an entire paragraph to the black stone incident. ~Amatulić (talk) 19:43, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

When all of this started, there was no text at all in the article re: the black stone, thus why it was targeted as a potential removal candidate. Obviously that scenario has changed. This was also proposed as a compromise solution - one that probably nobody would be extremely happy with, but which most person could accept. Perhaps the better way of going about this is to decide how many images (including those attached to templates) is the ideal number for the size of this article, then decide how many of each type we want to use, then pick the specific images. Resolute 20:34, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

This isn't a matter for which compromise can be avoided. Half a million words is far too many.

With regards to the black stone image, maybe there is another image we can use instead? -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:59, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, "avoid" isn't the word I'd choose; "decline" or "reject" would be better. So yes, a proposed compromise can be rejected, your calling for it to be accepted simply because of the volumes of words that one side has used is a bit of a ridiculous assertion. There is now text in the article regarding the Black Stone, so the version that Jayen links to above is pretty much rendered moot at this stage. So, no, I wholeheartedly oppose reverting to that version. Tarc (talk) 21:07, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

No. I am not asking you to accept this exact compromise. Just to accept that you will have to compromise in general.

And in the post you have just replied to its pretty clear I think that some kind of image for the black stone is important. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:16, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

No, eraser, no one has to compromise; no one should be subjected to such an absurd condition if the compromise is inherently unworkable, unjust, or unfair. That is the problem from the outset of this, that there are some, i.e. Ludwigs, who have made blatantly outlandish proposals, and then demand "compromise", which just shifts the goalposts from the the realm of "absolutely out of the question" to "not very likely". Tarc (talk) 01:55, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

From the current status quo you have to compromise. If individual editors have made particularly unreasonable proposals that's different as there would be a strong consensus against their position. If there was a strong consensus for the status quo then there wouldn't have been all this discussion. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:49, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

What part of "no" did you find confusing? We do have a strong consensus that is ignored by a couple of loudmouths, is all. Tarc (talk) 20:12, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

I would also note that the current state of the article is a compromise. That there is little appetite for huge changes does not show a lack of flexibility on the part of image-supporters. Quite the opposite, the fact that opponents continue to push shows a lack of flexibility on their part. Resolute 15:48, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

In which case why on earth did you make the compromise proposal if you think those who want to remove images are being unreasonable? It should also be noted that all of those who wanted images removed, including Ludwigs, have gone along with your compromise. The same cannot be said for the other side. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 16:30, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Frankly, my proposal was not meant for the likes of Ludwigs. The easiest, and only, way forward is to remove him from the equasion. I've seen enough of his style to know that he starts off with an extreme position, sets others against him, then moves ever so slightly toward the middle and tries to paint his opponents as unreasonable. If he gets his way, I have no doubt that he will try the very same game again at some point in the future, and will continue to do so until he either gets his way or gets (topic) banned.

My proposal was meant more for the likes of Anthony and Jayen - reasonable people - as a bid to try and create a framework that can reflect the viewpoints of most editors in some fashion. My personal preference is also for more depictive images, but I also feel there are too many images overall, so tried an idea that I felt had minimal overall impact on the number (and value) of images whilst improving the article's balance. But I respect the viewpoints of those who disagree and evidently prefer something close to the status quo. Given this is already a compromise position, I do not find that disagreement unreasonable in the least. Resolute 00:16, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

And yet Ludwigs, regardless of how much you dislike him, supports your proposal. As do I. Complaining about those who want to reduce the number of images and yet support your proposal is a bit silly. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 10:29, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

@Resolute: There's probably a number of ways a compromise solution could be approached. I think it's important to pick the one that is likely to be the most efficient and is least likely to just end in confusion. So, I don't want to seem like I am backing the process you are suggesting until I have thought about it a bit.

That said, I think what you say seems workable, with the important caveat that the final stage should be an RfC on the proposal that has been worked up, so that the change has the backing of the community. --FormerIP (talk) 21:25, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Truth be told, I see such an RfC as unnecessary at this point. If we hit on a solution that all of the regular contributors can live with or support, we should be doing alright. If that local consensus is subsequently challenged, then yeah, perhaps an RfC. Resolute 21:53, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, I think that's a high standard, but if everyone here agrees and no other editor raises any objection, the maybe an RfC will be unnecessary. I'd drop my demand for an RfC if there's an understanding that the first objection will be met with "OK we'll RfC it", rather than, "you're too late, there's already a consensus". --FormerIP (talk) 22:14, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

If we have an RFC what would be a good question? -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:21, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

If Resolute's method is used, I guess it would be a choice of two options, one of which is the status quo, one of which is the new proposal, and a rationale for each. --FormerIP (talk) 23:11, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, no. If we're going to have an RfC, then we'll open it up all the way. That's just natural. --Ludwigs2 00:25, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

What do you mean "open it up all the way"? What would be the question in that case? You must realise by now that "no faces" has a snowball's chance. --FormerIP (talk) 00:27, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

He's not going to drop the stick until he gets his way or gets topic banned. The best solution at this point is to simply ignore Ludwigs and hope that the reasonable editors can come to an accord. Resolute 00:53, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Robert Resolute, you're being a jackass. stop it.

FormerIP:

• First, makes you think I want all the images removed? that's what people say about me, not what I've been reaching for.
• Second, this is not about what people want, this is about what's appropriate for the page. You're too much on one side to credibly and effectively evaluate the odds here, so don't waste my time with snowball talk.

What I meant by 'open it up all the way' is that if this comes to RfC I reserve the right to make the same arguments I've been making all along - that we should only offend well-established religious and cultural mores where there's a clear encyclopedic advantage in doing so - in the belief that the broader community will respond to that common sense approach in a way that the emotionally invested editors here cannot. Maybe they won't, but if they do that may generate outcomes that don't fall between the 'no compromise' and 'mild compromise' positions that have been lain out here. If you want to try to reach some real consensus without an RfC, fine, but don't try to draft up one of those milk-sop RfC that don't address the article issues or offer any choices except the 'pre-approved' ones. --Ludwigs2 01:05, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

That sounds reasonable on its face, but I see two problems with that position: (1) offending people should never be a consideration when building encyclopedic content, and (2) there is no agreement on what "clear encyclopedic advantage" means. It could mean anything; such as (a) the image clarifies or supplements the text, (b) the image simply illustrates something in the text, (c) the image is interesting and relevant to the article topic, or (d) breaks up the monotony of a wall of text. Perhaps, if there were an RfC, those two points should be addressed instead, because that's where discussions involving Ludwigs2 always seem to break down. ~Amatulić (talk) 01:34, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

We just had that RfC at WT:NOT, actually. Unsurprisingly, consensus was not in favour of Ludwigs' interpretation. Resolute 01:46, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Honestly, I'm not sitting through yet another tiring round of "we should only offend well-established religious and cultural mores where there's a clear encyclopedic advantage in doing so" bullshit. If that is how this is going to, once again, be kicked off, then this is dead on arrival. Tarc (talk) 01:55, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Agree with that. There no point in an RfC which has no point.

Ludwigs: Of course, you are entitled to make whatever comment you like when you vote in the RfC. If you dissent from the options given, it's normal practice for there to be a section where you can do that.

But an RfC question does have to have pre-defined options, because it needs to provide a precise answer which can be clearly understood. Holding an RfC where anything is a valid answer would be like holding a presidential election where there are no candidates but you can write anyone's name on the slip. From a practical point-of-view, the type of discussion you seem to be proposing is one that can only ever be closed as "no consensus". There's no point in even starting that. --FormerIP (talk) 02:14, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Well that's fine, but I'm letting you know that I'll be party to the discussion about forming an RfC question, so you're going to have to find some grounds on which to work with me. That's just the way it is. And Amatulić: your point 1 is wrong and your point 2 is a matter to be resolved in discussion. It's no more difficult than any other NPOV discussion, except that some editors are willing to willfully misinterpret things just to confuse matters. that can be dealt with administratively. --Ludwigs2 04:11, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

It's simply your opinion that my point 1 wrong. As an analogy, scientists don't consider religious arguments when reaching conclusions via the scientific method. Neither should a secular project consider religious offense when creating encyclopedic content. Consensus is abundantly clear on that point. Point 2 is a valid RfC topic. There's no purpose in having any other RfC about which images are to be included and which are to be removed, unless point 2 can be resolved. ~Amatulić (talk) 04:29, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Amatulić: I'm sorry, but it's not just my opinion. This is the way things work in the real world, where being respectful of others is a norm (one that rarely interferes with work and generally improves everyone's quality of life). If you want to go the scientific route, please note that this is a topic in the social sciences - not the physical sciences you seem to be referring to - and in the social sciences the term 'secular' is never, ever, ever interpreted in a way such that people feel entitled to blithely disrespect the worldviews of other groups of people. Physical scientists may choose to dump on religious viewpoints that conflict with scientific principles, but as a rule even physical scientists don't extend that to general disrespect towards religion as a whole, and social scientists are always circumspect, giving even fairly horrendous worldviews a modicum of respect for the purposes of explication and analysis. This is even the way things work on most pages on Wikipedia, it's only ignored on highly contentious pages like this, where editors have mostly given up being reasonable and just looking for an argument they can swing like a big rock. Unfortunately, it's pages like this that need that kind of circumspection the most.

I mean, I understand why you say what you do - it's a mindlessly simple mantra that you can toss at people without thinking about it too much, which saves a lot of mental wear and tear if you have to do it a lot. Unfortunately, short cuts like that sometimes miss the mark and interfere, and you need to be able to recognize when that happens: If four years of perpetual conflict doesn't clue you in to the thought that maybe you're misapplying it here, then maybe it's time you started looking at how broadly you have to distort real-world behavior and attitudes in order to make your position make sense. you ought to recognize that if you were getting paid to write an encyclopedia article and expressed a fraction of the attitudes that have been expressed here, you'd be canned in an instant, if only because willfully ignoring the interests of readers would be considered thoroughly unprofessional.

So, you can continue to hold your belief if you choose, but I know (and you ought to) that you can only maintain that belief by creating an absurd little wiki-bubble where you can assert that odd and unrealistic social rules are actually true. But that makes you far more like a religious fanatic than like a scientist, no? --Ludwigs2 06:30, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure this is a very accurate description of the academic world, particularly not in a major university. On the other hand I don't see the relevance of any of these remarks. A quick glance at the biographies of scholars working in this interdisciplinary area (Islamic history, art and culture) shows that it encompasses a wide range of disciplines within the humanities: here is a list from an international conference held in Clare College, Cambridge a year ago.[71] Mathsci (talk) 08:35, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Mathsci - I agree with your second point, but I think you'd agree that the humanities are even less subject to the dictates of the "Scientific Method" that Amatulić is referring to. A's point (which is perfectly valid as far as it goes) is that when talking about physics or math or chemistry, religious/cultural perspectives don't have a lot to offer and ought to be largely ignored. This is true, but not for the reasons he suggests (that science must programmatically ignore religion), but rather because when we consider religion/culture by the standards of the empirical sciences, they fare badly: they are just not credible theories. It's one thing to suggest that science should ignore creationism as a scientific theory - something almost every academic scientist would agree to without hesitation - but quite another thing to suggest that science should oppose all Christian beliefs in all cases as a matter of principle. Few empirical scientists go to that extreme, and when they do it's usually not as scientists but as social philosophers; other academics almost always refrain. The only time you find this kind behavior in the social sciences, in fact, is where biological sciences have started to creep in in a fringey sort of way: eugenics, The Bell Curve, some of the sillier extrapolations of sociobiology… Otherwise, academics don't put their scholarly reputations on the line over material that's trivial to their academic goals.

In truth, academics generally use the standard that I've been arguing for: they will quite readily violate any cultural mores or standards when it's a function of their specific thesis - as you point out, you'll find these images used by academics in books and articles that focus on Art History or on the social controversies surrounding the Islamic proscriptions. But academics don't go out of their way to violate mores or standards when it's not necessary for their thesis. They have more sense than to do something pithy and argumentative unless they can leverage a scholarly point out of it.

I sometimes find myself wondering where any of the proponents of these images would still make these arguments if they had to put their real names and real personal reputations on the line over it. It's one thing to say that we should vainly step on religious precepts when speaking from comfortable internet anonymity, but quite another to have to explain that attitude to your wife, your friends, your colleagues… anonymity is good for freedom of expression, but lends itself to anti-intellectualism. --Ludwigs2 13:26, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

I was wondering when you were going to stoop down to the "anti-intellectual/academic" angle, what took you so long? The thing is, again, we do feel it is necessary to show these images in this article. That's your sticking point. As for real identities, I edited and argued under my real name...and at a notoriety level only a few notches below Joel Furr or Kibo...on Usenet from about 1990 til 2000 or so when it started to wane. The internet then was a lot different than it is now; nowadays I prefer anonymity for personal safety. Tarc (talk) 14:30, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Son, I've been harping the anti-intellectual angle all along; what took you so long to notice? And unlike usenet (where everyone is encouraged to turn themselves into proto-FOX-News pundits), Wikipedia is ostensibly trying to be neutral and informative. It's one thing to attach your name to some arrogantly stupid opinion in a realm where arrogantly stupid opinions are the expected norm; it's another thing entirely to attach your name to such where you are trying to build a reputation for accuracy and respectability. Nobody respects anything that's ever been said on usenet - everyone knows it's a dumping ground for every vapid prejudice that's ever come down the pipe. Are you suggesting we turn Wikipedia into a new usenet? --Ludwigs2 15:23, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Unless you're about to pull an Anikin, no, you're not my father. The Usenet thing was more of an aside, but at one time discussions on Usenet were quite respectable, as 99% of the users there were either from universities, businesses, or the military. It wasn't until the Endless September that it went to shit...and if we're going to stay in this tangent, then really what you have become is a latter-day Serdar Argic. We fundamentally differ on how to present this topic in a "neutral and informative" manner. This isn't really something to reconcile or compromise on, any more than we would compromise on BLP policy to only let a little bit of unsourced material be used. Tarc (talk) 15:43, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, you just seemed like you needed some reparenting (just kidding ).

Look, if you want to go back to 20-year-old internet norms, that would be fine with me. in fact, it would solve our problem immediately: the project would likely be text-only, and our readership would consist almost entirely of computer nerds. But the world has moved on a bit since then: the internet is now pluri-dimensional, polychromatic, and multi-cultural. we have to maintain our reputation within that environment, and we can't maintain that reputation if we close our eyes to the fact that we are stepping on the toes of significant cultural groups. My point still stands: I sincerely doubt that you personally would go into your workplace and tell your boss that the company ought to do X because Muslims are all fanatics and their opinions don't count; I know for a fact that no reputable academic would discount cultural worldviews unless s/he needed to to develop a thesis. so why are you advocating that we do that here? --Ludwigs2 16:25, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Cultural groups don't get coddled or catered too when we're writing an encyclopedia. I'm not going to rehash your politically-correct approach to this matter for the nth time, as n-1 was more than enough. Tarc (talk) 20:10, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I can tell you were a long-term usenet junkie… Now why don't you give up the emotional rhetoric (because no one gives a fuck whether or not you want to coddle anyone), and let's get back to the point that this is what professionals in the real world do. I get that you're getting your jollies here, but enough of the amateur-hour crap. --Ludwigs2 21:06, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

That may be what tree-huggers do when they wish for a world where they think they have a god-given right to be unoffended. But out in the actual real world, that ain't how it works. We are here creating an encyclopedia free of religious twaddle, where an article on pregnancy can have a naked woman...though not necessarily in the lead...and where an article on Muhammad does not have to follow a hadith against showing his face. If that isn't to your liking, then by all means begin your own. MediaWiki is free, after all. Tarc (talk) 22:24, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

This isn't an article about environmentalism, so you've obviously pulled out the term 'tree-hugger' in a desperate attempt to find terminology you think will insult me. Unfortunately, all that really does is demonstrate that you're unable to make an actual argument for your position (or to find a decent insult, for that matter). If you're just tossing out dumb comments in the hopes that one of them will strike a nerve, well, whatever… That's your business. But the more you do it, the more you reaffirm that you're just here to cause commotion and blow smoke up everyone's ass. Keep at it; If this is the best you can do you are sure to lose this debate eventually. --Ludwigs2 23:45, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

I think it is unlikely that either of you is going to convince the other. Please agree to disagree. --JN466 01:53, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, I somehow doubt Tarc would agree with me even on that, but… --Ludwigs2 02:02, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Ludwigs2, the personal attacks you made above are not helping. You have been warned before about this kind of conduct. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 03:04, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Mathsci, after your last (I think fourth in the last year) effort to get me sanctioned, it is quite obvious that your opinion about me is far from dispassionate and unbiased. Please do yourself a favor and leave these kinds of comments to people whom it is possible to imagine are not slobbering after my blood. thanks. --Ludwigs2 04:43, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

"slobbering after my blood", "dumb", "jackass". All of this extreme language is unhelpful, disruptive and against wikipedia policy. On wikipedia the vital thing is to use secondary sources, here and elsewhere. That is the norm for editing (your attempts to edit without using sources on Commodity fetishism were tagged as WP:OR [72] and then later deleted [73] by universal consensus). It is no different when discussing the use of images. Please could you learn to use sources and avoid making self-referential judgements or personalised comments about others? Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 09:17, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Mathsci: I respect you as an editor (always have), but as a person you've made it more than clear that you are carrying an extreme grudge against me. You can deny it all you like, bu your behavior proves otherwise: do you have any idea how many articles I can point to (including this one) where your enter the discussion solely to seek sanctions against me and only start editing after the sanction effort failed? Don't get me wrong, the work you do is good - at lease, I've never found a reason to disagree with you significantly on a content point - but you are so extraordinarily vindictive it almost defies belief.

Stick to content-points where your contributions are valuable and credible; leave handling me to admins (should any deem that act to be necessary), because your damned-near-stalking and endless carping about me just makes you look maniacal. --Ludwigs2 14:51, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Ludwigs2, please reread what I wrote about secondary sources: that is the core policy on wikipedia which gives a concrete method for evaluating the addition of content or images. That seems to be the central issue here. Otherwise I don't have the slightest clue what you are rabbiting on about. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 20:08, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Point 1 is the heart of your tendentiousness, honestly; the refusal to accept that this is an accepted reality of thi removed s project. Also, noone has to work with you if you persist in just proposing the same things that have already been soundly rejected. Finally, it would nice if rather than redirecting your dickishness to who you perceive is the proper target, i.e. this edit, it'd be better if you just removed it entirely. Tarc (talk) 04:31, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

I do not see any point in using wikipedia processes like mediation and RfCs in this particular instance. That is a way of creating chaos, muddying the waters. What has emerged is that we follow current scholarship regarding historical images as represented in excellent academic secondary sources. That seems to have been mutually agreed. Whether or not faces are covered in the Persian miniatures, which appear only as thumbnails, seems immaterial. Discussion of images produced between 1300 and 1600 requires some familiarity with the sources used. That is why this topic is inappropriate for an RfC or mediation. I do understand that it's much easier to engage in lively debate when there is no requirement to make reference to those sources, but that's not how we create articles on wikipedia. As for calling other users "jackasses", there is no excuse for poor conduct like that after repeated warnings. Mathsci (talk) 05:01, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

It's not the first time he's done that, and it's not the worst thing he's called people. Honestly, the process most likely to end this is RFC/U. Resolute 05:03, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree that an RfC would not be useful; we've covered a lot of ground over the past few weeks, and bringing everyone who participates up to speed is not likely to be possible. I wouldn't editors coming in and shooting from the hip, as it were; that would render all the discussions we've had null and void. My view about the black stone image is that it isn't necessary in this article; first, the story is more of a legend than historical fact, and the image is already included in six other articles: Black Stone, Muhammad in Mecca, Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy, Depictions of Muhammad, Kaaba and Jami' al-tawarikh. I think it makes encyclopedic sense to have one image of each of the main types of figurative images – unveiled, veiled, flame; and Resolute's proposal achieves that. At the same time, this may allow us to include one or two culturally more meaningful and iconic images (or failing that, lighten the article up a bit). I've long complained that we don't have a single image of a Quranic inscription on a mosque, despite the fact that such inscriptions are so common and are frequently used as illustrations in reliable sources. I'd much rather have one of those than the Gabriel image in the Quran section, as the style of that image really clashes with the other images there, and a Quranic inscription has more encyclopedic relevance. (The Gabriel image is also included in two other articles already.) An image of muslims at prayer might also be useful in the legacy section; again, an iconic type of image many sources on Muhammad use. --JN466 08:55, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Mathsci and Jayen: It would be great to have an RfC process with your participation, but you should bear in mind that it is not something that needs anyone's consent in particular in order to take place. --FormerIP (talk) 11:37, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Jayen, I'm also unclear about your rationale for wanting to remove the Kaaba image. This seems to be an image that editors have expressed a particular desire to keep. Your first reason is that it arguably depicts a legend, but you have previously wanted to include an image depicting the Night Journey, so this doesn't seem at all consistent. Your second reason is that it is in other articles, but I would suggest that is because it is a good image and is all the more reason it should be used here. Do you have any other arguments against this image, because I find the ones you have given to be weak. --FormerIP (talk) 12:44, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Since the historic depiction of Muhammad requires some familiarity with sources, which most wikipedians do not know about, there seems to be no point in an RfC. Plenty of other editors are in agreement with this point of view, so please try not to give the appearance of singling out particular editors. Mathsci (talk) 13:42, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

The night journey images are more relevant, since that was a particularly popular scene in depictions. They're also more accomplished artistically, which is reflected in the amount of interest they're getting from art historians. Ludwigs2 said one true thing a while back: if you have such a narrow focus on one thing, you lose sight of the bigger picture. All our discussion is about something that within the wider world of Islamic art is a distinct minority phenomenon. We have lost sight of the forest for that one tree. --JN466 17:19, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Responding to the initial question in this section, I said the first time we brought this proposal up that I have no overweening objection to the two images, proposed for the Islamic Depiction section; I do object to the proposal if it's take it or leave it in total:

• It is too radical removing multiple images with limited participation, and without consideration for individual images in their sections.
• This is the biography of a man, and the multiple images proposed to be removed fit that purpose, and several are images used across the project in many different languages for this purpose.
• Again this is a biography, and three of the four images proposed are in ancillary sections, not his biography.
• It removes all images from some sections of the biography.
• The single image (at right) proposed for his biography sections (the purpose of the article) is an image of an event, with multiple people and other subject matter, in which it is very difficult to see anything related to Muhammad.
• The objections to the images proposed to be removed, that they are religiously insensitive or culturally unbalanced I find unpersuasive, and the considerations standardless and unworkable.
• It appears, that the images proposed for the Islamic depiction section are being held captive to decisions in other sections -- this is unfair to that section and those images.

Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:11, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

The intent was never a "take it or leave it" scenario. Rather, an attempt at a workable framework to move this process forward. If you feel the general idea is sound, but would like to see more of one type of images, or in certain locations, please share them. Resolute 14:14, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for that, as it has been represented otherwise. As to the framework, my understanding is that it generally seeks to represent four "Islamic Depictions" (calligraphy, no face, face, and fire) of Muhammad, throughout the article (except in the western/other section). The first word, Islamic, apart from any policy issues (although there have been lots of words on that for many reasons), is not what this article is about. The second word, depictions, is also not what this article is about (except in the small squibs to other articles). I am sorry, i have to leave and don't have time right now to create a gallery here of all images and their sections but I will (sometime later) if as this progresses that would be helpful. Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:36, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

As a side note in the legacy section I would actually support the idea of the quranic inscriptions (it is something notable that he definitely had major influence on.) If possible can we go through pictures individually? This I think would make it a lot easier for people to weigh in and explain positions for whether or not they find the picture useful and also whether it should stay or depart the article. Tivanir2 (talk) 18:05, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

We obviously feature a number of Islamic images, besides others like those of the geography. My concern is that, to the extent that we do feature Islamic art, that selection of images should be balanced and neutral, focusing on the most common types of Islamic art. It is a fact that figurative images of Muhammad were rare, especially in public contexts; there is no mainstream figurative iconography of Muhammad in Islamic sacred art. By featuring so many of the images we are creating an impression in the reader that is at odds with the historical reality. --JN466 19:50, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

@Alan, I apologise for any lack of clarity on my part in my (extensive) comments here about the compromise only being a framework - that was certainly obvious to me. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:12, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

The problem Jayen is that this is an article on Muhammad, not Muslim depictions of Muhammad. We are not constrained by the latter when writing about the former. Tarc (talk) 22:28, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

To the extent that we use Muslim art to illustrate this article, we should show it in proportions that correspond to the real world. In the depictions article, it is quite appropriate for figurative images to dominate, because the article title goes that way. --JN466 01:53, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

And obviously the majority of our art should be muslim as we do for every other religious figure. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:03, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Obviously, both of you are full of it, concocting an extra provision for this article that exist in no other article is not going to fly. Tarc (talk) 13:33, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Tarc, we're showing typical Christian art in Jesus. We're not showing typical Muslim art in Muhammad. The problem is obvious. --JN466 22:55, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps the Jesus article needs more images from other perspectives then, but that is a topic for that talk page, not this one. We're talking about Muhammad here. Stay on-topic, if you would. Tarc (talk) 23:05, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Oh for God's sake, Tarc. The same is true about the Krishna and the Buddha article. This one is the only exception. What's so special about this one that we have to do something different from what we normally do? --JN466 23:14, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

The more appropriate question to pose is "why is this article subjected to a higher and more exacting level of scrutiny than the others?", to which the obvious answer is that "only Islam has a bee in its bonnet about images of its prophet". This is the underlying motivation to shed images from this article; I can give praise to Ludwigs for at least admitting that offense is a motivating factor, something that you cannot. Their faith dictates to them how they depict their prophet. We are under no such restriction or obligation. Surely there are things that adherents of other faiths find objectionable in their respective articles, and we would not bow to their demands, either. Tarc (talk) 23:26, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

The reason this article attracts scrutiny is the same reason any article attracts scrutiny in Wikipedia: because it's not NPOV. It goes out of its way to show something other than mainstream art. --JN466 00:25, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

It is quite in line with NPOV. You're stuck in this intellectually devoid argument of "Muslims don't use pictures, so if we use pictures ,that isn't neutral." You're wrong. You have been told that you're wrong many times on this angle, and been shown and explained why you are wrong, yet you persist in the same claim. Over and over and over. Tarc (talk) 02:48, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

I want to use pictures, but I want to use typical pictures. I want us to use pictures in due proportion to their prevalence. I don't want us to use a bunch of images that are rare, just to demonstrate to the world that we can. Jimbo made that point very clear, but it obviously eludes you. We're not here to make a statement about censorship or the rights and wrongs of Islamic aniconism, we're simply here to write an encyclopedic article on Muhammad that represents matters in accurate proportions. --JN466 19:56, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

We're using them because a consensus of editors have determined that they are not incidental, not superfluous, are germane to the topic, assist the reader in understanding the subject matter, and they satisfy WP:NFCC. Your wish to add another criteria. We get that. That proposal isn't exactly setting the project on fire, your fallacious argumentum ad Jimboem notwithstanding. Tarc (talk) 20:25, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Consensus can change. A majority of editors have supported, or are fine with, Resolute's proposal, which does open the possibility of adding picture that are less incidental, more germane to the subject matter, and better inform the reader (without misinforming them) about Muhammad's artistic reception. Educational value should be paramount. The images add very little of that to the descriptions of the events in the text. We should have some, so the reader knows there are some, and can see the different artistic conventions, but that's about all. --JN466 21:51, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Muhammad is a historical figure. You cannot view him in the lens of Islam alone. Resolute 15:50, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

So is every other similar religious figure. Your point? -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:48, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

"Muslim art"? It's art. I can't imagine any policy that restricts the use of art, on the basis of the artist's religion. Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:46, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

So the images at Jesus aren't Christian. 4 serious? -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 16:30, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

The images on any page are not restricted to any one culture or religion as a matter of policy. There's one image on the Jesus page that is doesn't seem to come from Christian culture. It's appropriate and likely that the Mohammed page should gravitate towards images produced by Muslims, but there is no rule about it or any logical reason why it absolutely has to be the case. --FormerIP (talk) 16:59, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Point to a religious figure that doesn't have the vast majority of its imagery from that religion on Wikipedia. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:48, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

sigh… Eraserhead, do you see the dimensions of this problem? Tarc, Resolute, FormerIP, et al are standing on the principle that Muslims should not be allowed to 'make a statement' by removing images, but they refuse to acknowledge that they themselves are 'making a statement' by adding so many images. They keep trying to cast this as a dire dichotomy in which we must choose between Muslim advocacy and Secular advocacy, when in fact Wikipedia should simply not be 'making a statement' either way. This whole round-n-round is simply the politics of saving face: cognitive dissonance keeps them from ever admitting that they have been using the project to 'make a statement', and so progress becomes impossible. Badgering them out of it is not going to work (that will simply reinforce the cognitive dissonance), and I don't see any way to coax them out of it, so… --Ludwigs2 17:09, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

There are not "so many" images - a number have been removed already and several editors have withdrawn from the argument, presumably satisfied. There are only a fraction of those at Jesus, and they only start "below the fold". Johnbod (talk) 17:17, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

@ Johnbod: I'll admit it's getting better; frankly I'm close to being satisfied myself. but there's an issue of rationales here that I am trying to address to keep this problem from resurfacing in the future.

@ Amatulić: In what way is this a misrepresentation? Saying that we cannot allow Muslim perspective to dominate image choice is reasonable. saying that we must oppose those who are 'ignorant of their own faith' is advocacy (who the hell are you to judge who is ignorant of Islam?). Asserting that a well-known and well-sourced principle of the Muslim worldview doesn't matter and doesn't apply is advocacy. If you want to argue that some images need to remain because they are pertinent to particular content points that is perfectly valid. However, if you want to argue (as several editors here have argued) that we must retain some full-faced images otherwise we look like we're 'giving in' to Islam - that is advocacy. If you think that because you're on the side of secularism and science you can't be an advocate, think again: people can be fanatical about any belief system.

16 archives of complaints puts the lie to your assertion that we are not being disrespectful to Islam. Reliable sources put the lie to your statement that we are not being disrespectful to Islam. The only way you can continue to assert that you are not being disrespectful to Islam - which is what everyone on this page does (and you've done just above) - is to claim that anyone who objects is some dumb fanatic who shouldn't be listened to. But trust me, there is no surer sign of advocacy than that endless need to marginalize and demonize all disagreement.

I don't actually mind that you're advocates; we have NPOV to help us balance differing points of advocacy when they arise. But if you don't ever recognize that you're an advocate, it becomes impossible to apply NPOV (as has been amply demonstrated here). --Ludwigs2 18:25, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

NPOV helps us to handle differing or contradictory statements in reliable sources. It isn't really able to operate in the case of differences of opinion between editors. In that case, it's about WP:CONSENSUS and WP:DR. --FormerIP (talk) 20:26, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the "16 archives" bit, I'd say about 15.5 of that is the garden variety "Remove images of our prophet Muhammad (PBUH)" nonsense by SPAs and one-off IP editors, i.e. nothing that we'd pay the slightest bit of attention to or in any way see as a valued contribution to the project. Ludwigs continues to incorrectly equate "volume of complaint" with "credibility of complaint". Also, to my knowledge no one here has ever argued that we MUST retain images to avoid "giving in" to fanaticism. I certain;y have not made that argument. Tarc (talk) 20:44, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Given the large number of IP editors aren't sock puppets why on earth wouldn't we pay attention to what they say? WP:HUMAN applies. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:48, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

We do. We tell 'em to read the FAQ. The problem with those requests is that they present no arguments that the FAQ does not already address. I'll give Ludwigs2 credit for being more creative in that regard. ~Amatulić (talk) 21:04, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Even so, even if they are arguing against policy their points should have as much weight as an established editor arguing against policy. Additionally if enough people are arguing against a policy, established or not, then WP:IAR comes into play. Lots of people raising the same point over a large period of time should not be dismissed outright. Additionally saying that IP editors opinions should be dismissed outright is an argument in favour of the class system. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:08, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

As far as I am concerned, their opinions don't count for squat. Not just because their are IP editors, but because they come here not for the purposes of building an encyclopedia, but rather to demand that we make this page adhere to their religious beliefs. And the demands are not "can you remove some images" or "can you remove this image" or "can we move this image to another section"; they are invariably "remove ALL images NOW, they OFFEND me". That type of IP editor does not count for a damn thing in terms of discussing this topic. None. Tarc (talk) 21:18, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Do you have a policy or guideline to point at to backup your point? -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:24, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Do you have a thoughtful and relevant response, or is your fallback always the non sequitur? Tarc (talk) 23:05, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Eraserhead1, have you looked at the archives or the FAQ? The relevant policies (WP:NOTCENSORED, WP:CONSENSUS, WP:NPOV, etc.) are continually pointed out to these drive-by requesters, and polices are also mentioned in the FAQ. Requests that demand we violate our core policies in favor of a religious viewpoint do not count for anything in terms of discussing this topic, as Tarc already said. If someone wants to argue for a change in policy, the place to do that is over at the Village Pump, not here. But we don't get policy arguments from the drive-bys, only requests to remove the images because someone chooses to be offended by them. ~Amatulić (talk) 00:16, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Right, and if they are arguing against policy, especially NPOV, then that would mean their argument would be significantly weaker. I also think that arguments that aren't backed up by policy are weaker than those that are. I think it's perfectly reasonable question to ask - especially given how insistent you are that IP editors points are backed up by policy. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 11:23, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Ludwigs2, it's bad form to reply to something that was self-reverted immediately after posting it. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that it was an edit conflict.

And once again, there are so many things wrong with what you wrote that it's rather pointless to point them out to you over and over again. Who the hell am I to judge? You don't even know what the "well-known and well-sourced principle of the Muslim worldview" actually is. The Quran does not prohibit images, and actually says that anything not forbidden is permitted. Some Hadith forbid the creation of images but say nothing about viewing them. Every Muslim I know realizes this, including the ones who have participated in these endless debates you have involved yourself in. And again, you are blatantly mischaracterizing those who oppose you as engaging in "advocacy", using false assertions that we must keep all the images, as well as misguided logic that an absence of religious advocacy, or ignoring a point of religious dogma in editorial decisions about a biography, must automatically imply some sort of secular advocacy. The community has recognized how ridiculous that position is in many more articles than this one. That is why I self-reverted my earlier comment; it's pointless to repeat these things.

Many archives of complaints mean only that some vocal folks are offended. So what? It means nothing. If the volume of complaints bother you, you are free to ignore them and contribute elsewhere. There are even longer archives over at Talk:Intelligent Design. So what? Does that mean we should rewrite the article in a creationist POV because a bunch of vocal creationists got all bent out of shape over it? Ridiculous.

I have no problem with removing some images (and I have done so in the past). I also have no problem with including more. I do have a problem with your flawed rationales for removing them, however. If you want to characterize me as an "advocate" simply because I disagree with you, as you have been doing, it makes further discussion pointless. ~Amatulić (talk) 21:01, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

If I go to somewhere like the Islamic art museum in Kuala Lumpur, they say that Islamic art doesn't include visual representations and includes patterns and calligraphy instead. You can hardly argue that a) the Islamic art museum in Kuala Lumpur isn't a serious museum and b) that Malaysia isn't a moderate muslim country. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:05, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

That may well be correct, but it's just not very relevant. This isn't an article about or curated by the Islamic art museum in Kuala Lumpur. --FormerIP (talk) 21:29, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

(ec) Also, I don't think anybody ever said those things. I certainly didn't. The references (particularly 11 and 12) in our Islamic art article would disagree with your assertion about what the museum would tell you about Islamic art. Historical Islamic art does contain many depictions of Muhammad. I would defer to Jonbod for a more adequate reply to this, as he appears to have greater expertise in this area. ~Amatulić (talk) 21:32, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

@Former IP, except that it does as its muslim and its an authority, in the same way that the Hermitage, the British Museum, the Louvre and the Met are (though admittedly at a slightly lower level).

@Amatulic With regards to Islamic art, as a generalisation I doubt that what you say is correct - especially with regards to Muhammad - the only reason we have as many images as we do is by taking a subset of a subset of Islamic art. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:36, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Again. Figurative images of Muhammad are rare in Islam. They are largely restricted to the private medium of book miniatures created for wealthy patrons many centuries ago, and some Muhammad postcards and posters you can buy in Iran. Apart from that, zilch. --JN466 23:08, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Jayen, your understanding of this is over-simplistic and, on a factual level, not accurate. If you want to go into it, I would suggest opening a new section. However, I don't think it matters, because it misses the point. That an image is of a relatively rare kind does not mean we may not include it in an article. If an image is of good quality, informative and interesting that is enough. --FormerIP (talk) 23:45, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Of course an image being of a relatively rare kind does not mean we cannot include an example or two. But to fill the article with images of this rare kind, to the point where we have no space left in the article to show the common, iconic kinds of images is just nuts. --JN466 00:29, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Fill the article? Are we looking at the same thing? If "an example or two" of relatively rare images of Muslim depictions of Mohammed's face is OK, why so much contention over an article which contains three?

I also don't think there is such a thing as a "common, iconic" representation of Mohammed. Islam is largely an aniconic religion, isn't it? --FormerIP (talk) 02:33, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

We're obviously not looking at the same thing. I see six figurative images, not three. Figurative images as a whole are rare, and the ones showing his face are a minority within that rare type. And it's the minority within the minority that we have most of. Nuts.

As Jesus is omnipresent in churches, so Muhammad is omnipresent in mosques. But while Jesus is omnipresent in images and crucifixes, Muhammad is omnipresent through his words. Abundant calligraphy of his words and names takes the place of images. That's the iconic representation of Muhammad throughout the Islamic world, even though it's aniconic. --JN466 02:54, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Amatulić: sorry, that was an edit conflict, and I haven't been on project (except momentarily) since. but to the point:

1. In the third line of your response above [74] you are interpreting the Quran in order to support your position. So far as I know you are not a Muslim, nor are you a Quranic Scholar, and you've provided no sources (except 'every Muslim you know'). And yet somehow you feel more qualified to dictate what 'proper' Islamic beliefs are than any of the people who come to complain about your interpretation. How is that not advocacy?
2. Don't suggest I am mischaracterizing the opposition here when I have diffs like the following (I just grabbed a few - there are ten times this number if you want me to dig) [75], [76],[77],[78]. The one most prominent argument made in this discussion is that Muslims are not allowed the simple privilege that editors have anywhere else. I could go right now to the Apple page and start removing or changing images, and as long as I was reasonable about it the changes stand a good chance of sticking, and there certainly wouldn't be discussion of this magnitude over it. But here that privilege is revoked, specifically because editors here make the bad faith assumption that all objections are advocacy.
3. I didn't say it automatically implied Secular Advocacy; I said people here were engaged in Secular Advocacy. My exact quote was: "Saying that we cannot allow Muslim perspective to dominate image choice is reasonable. saying that we must oppose those who are 'ignorant of their own faith' is advocacy." NPOV does not mean deciding which sides are wrong and squelching them.
4. Don't get me started on Intelligent Design (which is another pugnacious article that needs a serious rewrite - but the people dogging that page are even worse than the people dogging this one). Between this comment and the comment I pointed out int he line above, you seem unable to comprehend that there is any middle ground between attacking a POV and surrendering to it. that's just sad. If you cannot see this middle ground, then you do not understand NPOV, and if that's the case you're just getting in the way of writing a good encyclopedia.

Clear? --Ludwigs2 02:25, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Oh my. I've been away from this page for a few days and see this. Yet again, another response full of so much wrong there's almost no point addressing it.

I don't interpret the Quran. It says what it says. You would not be able to find a Muslim who claims it says something else that what I stated. And yet, you want to twist this simple fact into "advocacy" somehow. Incredible.

And still you mischaracterize your opponents. Incredible. Not a single one of those diffs you linked support your assertion that "Muslims are not allowed" to remove images. They are. They come here for the purpose of doing so on a weekly basis. And they are reverted, as you would be if you started removing or changing images on Apple. If the rationale is reasonable, the change will stick, and images have been removed on reasonable grounds in the past. "It offends me" is not a reasonable argument. There are ample means for you to avoid seeing images that offend you.

Your assertion that people here are engaged in secular advocacy is so off the deep end that it doesn't deserve a response. Evidently you are incapable of seeing the difference between "advocating secularism" and advocating that religious dogma be ignored in editorial decisions. As an analogy, it is one thing to say "God does not exist." It is quite another to take the scientist's position that "God's existence is irrelevant to what we do." Similarly, advocating that we include images with intention to offend is quite different from what we're actually advocating: that the article be illustrated by legitimate historical artwork respectful of the subject, regardless of fundamentalist religious views. And you don't see the difference. Incredible.

Your own words apply to you more than anyone else: You seem unable to comprehend that the current state of the article already sits on the middle ground between, as you say, "attacking a POV and surrendering to it." It just sad that you cannot see this middle ground, that you clearly do not understand NPOV, and that you're just getting in the way of writing a good encyclopedia.

I have written to you in the past that your reasoning, while giving the appearance of being reasonable, nevertheless amounts to sophistry. You have refused to accept that a community who disagrees with you might actually have a point. You have failed to assume good faith in your misguided personal perceptions of others (hint: a neutral position may appear bigoted in the same way as neutral news reporting is perceived as "liberal" to the far right). I'm done for now, at least for several more day. ~Amatulić (talk) 18:34, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

What is clear is that you, and Jayen for that matter, fundamentally and absolutely misunderstand and misuse NPOV as you try to apply it to this situation. It is not achieved by simply splitting the difference between two points of view, this is a common misunderstanding found in new editors, but the two of you should know better. Tarc (talk) 02:52, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

You have not given any good reason why we should choose to show many examples of a rare and unrepresentative type of art, while neglecting to show common types of art that have abundant cultural meaning. --JN466 03:01, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Quite frankly, I do not need to. Tarc (talk) 14:42, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

So we are back to flogging the deceased four legged mammal? If possible is there any way to go through each picture so we can make sure we have a good consensus if we need to change anything? I figure that a review of the images would be a good way to get some editing done and arrive at a good idea of which pictures should stay or leave the article (please also note I said all pictures not just the muhammad ones.) Tivanir2 (talk) 15:51, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Also if I may be so bold we aren't worried so much about cultural impacts since this is the biography article. This article should deal more with life impacts and legacy impacts of the individual (though I think it is key we explain how the aniciosm he inspired lead to an abundance of calligraphy representations of him.) Though on that same note pictures depicting Muhammad should also be retained since they are images of the subject. Just my 2 cents. Tivanir2 (talk) 16:37, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

LMAO: see, this is exactly what I'm talking about - you guys are pure unadulterated advocates. Tarc doesn't feel the need to explain his position but argues for it endlessly regardless, Tivanir2 wants to recast an article as a pure biography just to avoid dealing with cultural issues, Amatulić bases his argument on interpretation of scripture and refuses to allow any other interpretation to be considered. If I had to judge solely by your behavior I'd have to think you were died-in-the-wool religious fanatics determined to cast your faith in the 'correct' light. I'll grant that you've gotten a lot of milage by confusing people with the term secularism (most people don't recognize that secularism is a belief system of its own, one which can be pursued as fanatically as any other belief system), but the more you guys speak, the more obvious it becomes that you are operating out of ideological absolutism. It's hilarious!

Well, I guess we'll keep at it. The problem with advocacy is that advocates are constantly forced to extreme positions; that sours the milk for mild advocates (those who don't want to be associated with extremism) and forces the staunch advocates into ever-more outlandish statements. Reason almost always wins out in the long run even where people are being desperately unreasonable, because reason simply takes less energy. It's just a matter of inertia, and time… --Ludwigs2 17:04, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

If we're going round and round in circles then its time we got Resolute's compromise closed by an uninvolved administrator. If the proposal is closed as no consensus or that consensus is unable to be implemented then its time to escalate. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:51, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

The problem is Ludwigs, I think most here see you as the extreme advocate. The notion that secularism is itself a belief system is beyond the pale. Tarc (talk) 18:02, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes Tarc, I know that's how you see me (and I know that you've put a huge effort into casting me in that light), but that's irrelevant. Factually, I have been proposing the moderate, reasonable solution all along, and just diligently marking time while you and Robert and Resolute jump through all the emotive hoops of trying (and failing) to paint me as a sanctionable editor, and trying (and failing) to paint this as a non-problem that should be closed. Do you think I don't recognize those administrative gambits for what they are? Do you think you're the first editors to try them on me?

You should know that for all of the turmoil that surrounds me on project, I get something close to the goals I want a good 80% of the time. That's because as unreasonable as I may be as a person at times, my goals and attitudes are always impeccably reasonable. It's an unfortunate fact of Wikipedia life that sometimes suggesting the reasonable thing generates a freakout among entrenched, embattled editors, and after that happens there's nothing to do except keep plugging away at the reasonable thing until the freakout turns into burnout. When sufficient emotional burnout has set in, reason will prevail. It's dumb that what should actually be nothing more than a three day reasoned discussion requires a three-month drama-fest just to drain all the emotional cathexes first, but there's nothing I can do about that. Really, the only 'problem' I represent for you is that I have a knack for weathering these kinds of emotional shit-storms intact; but that's not really a problem for the article, is it? --Ludwigs2 19:04, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Done. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:54, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Actually it isn't reasonable or moderate the viewpoint you push is conservative and to attempt censorship for a groups benefit. This is a biography regardless of what individuals may think about it. I am not trying to avoid cultural issues, they just don't matter to the biographical part of this article. Did he create islamic teachings and influence muslims world wide? Yes. However that goes into the legacy portion of the article and not into the main portion. The main points of this article is what he did during his life, which has significant impact on multiple areas within the region referred to as the middle east. And again I point out when the argument doesn't hinge on "we are offending people" I will more than happily debate all points just like I debated the idea of whether or not the citation of the quran on buildings would be relevent (note: I actually support it in the legacy section now a sign I can actually change my tune unlike some.) I don't try to avoid anything but repeatedly trumping out we offend people and we shouldn't isn't an argument that can win based upon what we do here in this project per WP:NOTCENSORED. Tivanir2 (talk) 19:24, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

NPOV comes first, NOTCENSORED second. If we can see our way clear to showing images in proportion to their prevalence, as per Resolute's proposal, and then someone complains about the images, that is the time to invoke NOTCENSORED, not now, when we are clearly off-NPOV. --JN466 19:39, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

@Tivanir2, who are you replying to? I presume it isn't me. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:50, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

No, he's replying to me, he just put his response in an odd place.

@Tivanir2: If you want to treat this as a biography without any religious input, then let's delete the article. No one knows much of anything about Muhammad except what comes to us from the Quran or Hadith or through the Muslim tradition; few works independent of Muslim tradition exist; no scholarly sources exist which do not draw heavily on religions traditions. Muhammad is simply not notable for what we know of him as a living, breathing human being; his entire notability comes from his position as founder of a world religion. The biographical portion of this article is inseparable from the religious portion, because in fact the notable events of his life all revolve around the creation and establishment of Islam.

Also, it was you who raised the cultural issue: "if I may be so bold we aren't worried so much about cultural impacts since this is the biography article". re you changing your mind?

That being said, and giving you credit for the valid aspects of your point, there is nothing about writing a biography that mandates we include pictures that offend Muslim religious beliefs

• Images are not mandated on project, anywhere
• These images are not actually of Muhammad
• These images are not actually of the events of Muhammad's life, not in any credible sense

You seem to be arguing that it's necessary to include images of things that have very tenuous relationships to Muhammad the person, because it's a biography. That's an odd statement in the first place - why would a biography need images not closely related to the subject? - and it's an apparent overstatement. I could understand 'desirable' - it is desirable to have such images in some ways - but necessary? That is an unreasonable assertion. so are you going to drop the 'necessary' bit and go with 'desirable' now? --Ludwigs2 20:21, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

First I am onboard with removing some images as we have a copious amount in the article as it stands. I never once said anything about removing the religious points on the article since they pertain to him. What I have objected to is the idea of removing all the pictures since the reason to do so is people are offended. as for the talking points 1.) no pictures aren't mandatory but they are encouraged since it helps some readers understand things better. 2.) Red herring argument, the pictures on the Jesus article aren't accurate either as can be claimed of almost every article before the invention of the photograph. 3.) These are suppose to be images of important events in muhammad's life. They have as much relevence as any other historic figure in any other article when showing events that were important to the person. Trying to say I am flip flopping on issues when I point out time and time and time again that I am being consistent in my arguments is your problem and I don't even have to address it. Tivanir2 (talk) 19:10, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Break

Jayen, there's absolutely no case for your suggestion that the article has some sort of crisis of "too many images". The guidance at WP:LAYIM is that there are too many (or not enough text) "if there are so many images in a section that they strip down into the next section at 1024×768 screen resolution". We're nowhere near that here, and there is a large portion of the article with no images at all. So, at present, it is false to suppose that any type of image is being included in the article at the expense of any other type of image. I'm also confused as to why you have below proposed an additional figurative image if you think there are too many. --FormerIP (talk) 14:38, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Calligraphy is an image too... -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 15:56, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes, that's true. --FormerIP (talk) 15:57, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't think anyone has argued against calligraphy at any point though so the statement is kind of moot. Tivanir2 (talk) 16:11, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

I would like to add images of calligraphy of Muhammad's name, present in many mosques, of Quranic inscriptions, perhaps one or two of the relics of Muhammad, a couple of call-out boxes with the two most famous verses of the Quran (the Throne Verse and the Light Verse), and there is no room for them. Partly that is due to the presence of three large nav templates along the right-hand margin, but it's true nonetheless. We have had major text flow problems because of the sheer number of images, templates, and fold-out boxes. Even that apart, we simply have too many images of a rare variety of a rare type of image. Hence the proposal to show one figurative image of each of the major types. The picture below is gorgeous, and I've added it to two other articles, but I wouldn't particularly like to add it here in this article. --JN466 19:30, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

We already have two (is it) images of calligraphy of Muhammad's name, two (not very good) images of the Quran. I see no one else supporting this extra rash of calligraphy, which very few readers can understand. Johnbod (talk) 22:00, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Except they can as its just art... Its quite clear Muslims overwhelmingly use this kind of art - so we should uses it in the majority of our illustrations to satisfy WP:NPOV.

And its not just Jayen466. I believe Tivanir2, who is pretty strongly in favour of freedom of speech and WP:NOTCENSORED, has stated he is in support of including some further calligraphy. I certainly support it as well.

And people listen to music in English or companies have English brand names - even if they don't speak English natively. On branding JR and CRH are two notable examples from Asia. All calligraphy in arabic is is the reverse. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:04, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Using it in our article because "Muslims overwhelmingly use this kind of art" is the exact opposite of NPOV. And you are completely mistaken in believing it is "just art". It can be appreciated in a rather superficial way if you don't read Arabic, but the meaning of the text is always the most important thing. The article currently has eleven calligraphic images (including the tops of templates) which is already rather too many in my view. Johnbod (talk) 00:59, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

It's not just Muslims, Johnbod. Western, incl. English, books on Muhammad also feature calligraphy heavily, because it is the predominant art form. Mosque inscriptions are a popular motif. The Thuluth example is rather plain and dispensable perhaps, and I would class neither the first image of the Quran as "calligraphy" (you can't see the text on its pages), nor Muhammad's seal, which is an item of more historical than artistic interest. And by all means, if there are more satisfying Qur'an images in Commons, let's find them. --JN466 02:05, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Some English books don't want to feature images of Mohammed even though they are writing about him. So they use calligraphy, pictures of a sunset, pictures of Muslims praying, pictures of random mosques and various other forms of clipart in order to break up the text. This is not an example we should follow. --FormerIP (talk) 02:13, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Some of those books are among the most reputable sources available. You don't get to pick and choose your sources that way. --JN466 02:16, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't matter how reputable they are, and it has nothing to do with NPOV. They are responsible for their policies on the matter and we are responsible for ours. In terms of trying to get Wikipedia to conform to standards of censorship applied elsewhere, it is time to drop the stick. --FormerIP (talk) 02:23, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

You still don't understand that WP:NOTCENSORED does not overrule WP:NPOV. WP:NOTCENSORED specifically says so, and always has done. But it's good that you have made it clear that you want us to follow your POV – if need be, against the sources. That discredits your position in my eyes. It's incompatible with fundamental project policy. The idea that WP:NPOV has "nothing to do with" reputable sources is contradicted by the first line of that policy, and almost every one that follows. --JN466 05:14, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

John, come on... You are effectively saying: "I suspect these otherwise very reputable sources of censorship, therefore we can't use them". You've gone beyond overwrought and rigidly literalistic application of NOTCENSORED that most advocates use and are asserting NOTCENSORED as some principle we have to impose on the real world. You want to actively censor sources that you suspect of censorship, with no proof or evidence that any actual censorship exists. Is it time for us to start invoking NOTCENSORED to keep you from blocking reliable sources that go against your personal beliefs? Because (frankly), that would amuse me endlessly. --Ludwigs2 14:26, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

@Johnbod, he's a muslim, so what the muslims think is very important as they make up the bulk of opinion on him - just like its very important what Hindus think at Krishna, and the Christians think at Jesus. If this wasn't the case we wouldn't use religious imagery there. I'm sure western sources generally follow the same standard. With regards to WP:NPOV its the only policy that's non-negotiable, unlike all the others. You cannot in good faith not follow it. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 07:32, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

As I say, what you are proposing is not following NPOV at all; you are instead proposing to give extra weight to the holders of one view. How do Muslims "make up the bulk of opinion on him"? They may care more, but most people, and most of our readers, are not Muslims, and are still able to have an "opinion". Can I add that I find your permanent condescending tone, paired with a very superficial grasp of the issues, extremely irritating. I'm sure I'm not the only one. Johnbod (talk) 12:38, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

That is the essence of the problem here; some are interpreting NPOV one way and seeing the current treatment as a violation, while (most) others see it that NPOV is being adhered to right now. This is a wiki-philosophical difference that will never be bridged by article talk page discussions. Tarc (talk) 14:16, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Back to topic like I said I do consider the inclusion of additional images (like the quranic inscriptions on buildings in the legacy section.(side note I missed that section the first time when I said I don't think it pertains)) as relevent and useful since it illustrates impacts he still has today. Muhammad's words were the basis for the Quran which now has passages on a lot of buildings so I see it as an A to B to C connection as an impact we still see today about his life. Also I am far less leary about including additional things than removing items unless there is a clear reason to do so. Tivanir2 (talk) 19:16, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Parable of the Ship of Faith

Metropolitan Museum of Art

British Library

Here are two images from Firdausi's Shahnameh of the Parable of the Ship of Faith, one from the Metropolitan Museum of Art and the other from the British Library. The image available from the Met is of very high quality and is from their Houghton Shahnameh. The scholar Raya Shani has written extensively on these and other images, some of them in collections in Iran. The face of the Prophet is veiled in a halo of flames. Either of these images would be good, but the miniature from the Met is exceptionally fine on detail. Mathsci (talk) 08:12, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Agree the Met one is particularly fine. Gorgeous colours. We have an embarrassment of riches. (I've added it to the Shanameh article.) --JN466 09:09, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

These look good. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:36, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Do they have any advantages over existing images? They do not show a biographical incident. Johnbod (talk) 13:50, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

This is a "biographical incident" in the same sense as the Night Journey on Buraq with the archangel Gabriel. But to answer the question, the Shahnameh has a fundamental significance in Persian culture. The Houghton Shahnameh is one of the finest existing examples illustrating the epic of Firdausi. There is alas no wikipedia biography of Alfred Houghton: on the one hand he was criticized in his obituary for separating ths Shahnameh manuscript into separate sheets and then dispersing the collection at auction (one was acquired for close to a million dollars by the Aga Khan); on the other he exposed the corruption of the Getty collection in its method of acquisition of art pieces after Getty's death. Mathsci (talk) 14:02, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure you're right there. The Mi'raj is recounted in the Quran, though Islamic opinion divides as to whether it should be interpreted as a physical event or a vision or revelation. I can't see the ship parable is Quranic at all - references please if I'm wrong. Johnbod (talk) 14:34, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Not that it necessarily excludes the image, but the ship story appears to pretty obscure. --FormerIP (talk) 16:03, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Mediation 2.0

The discussion is going round and round in circles and no-one is willing to close the existing discussion. Lets at least give mediation a try as a way forward. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 07:35, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

• I don't think mediation is the way forward and I don't think Eraserhead1 has identified the problem here. There does seem to be a growing consensus between a a core of editors, who were not necessarily in agreement in the beginning, about the highly nuanced way we add images to this specific article (which is really a very special case). The discussion above, in answer to Resolute's question, was dissrupted by a few agenda-driven individuals. Perhaps a solution is that this talk page is placed under article probation so that willful disruption and poor conduct can be dealt with on the spot by designated uninvolved administrators. Mathsci (talk) 08:14, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm not convinced this page is a special case, or that mediation is appropriate. At the top it says Muhammad. It seems like it's on people who want to remove pictures of Muhammad to make the case. Their arguments so far, and for many years now, have been unpersuasive. Tom Harrison ^Talk 14:25, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

While you may not be pursuaded by the arguments there have been a hell of a lot of them (500k words). Additionally the discussion isn't reaching a conclusion.

Definitely some level of escalation is appropriate - whether that step is mediation is up for agreement.

If the arguments against change are truly unpersuasive then mediation or any other escalation won't make any changes - but they will draw a line. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 15:27, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

IMO the line is already drawn; you have failed to achieve anything even remotely resembling a consensus for your point of view on the matter. What you are seeking is ultimately a novel approach to NPOV interpretation, which requires religious precepts to be acknowledged when writing an article connected to that religion. In other words, the POV held by some Muslims that prohibits Muhammad's face being shown must be reflected in how many images of such we can use in this article. This is a fundamental policy shift that'd at the very least necessitate wider community input, i.e. Wikipedia:Centralized discussion. You can't mediate your way into a policy change. Tarc (talk) 15:37, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

As I've said above, there has already been significant change, and several editors appear satisfied & have withdrawn - I note even Ludwigs says above he is nearly satisfied. The recent "more calligraphy" arguments above are in fact a new angle, not I think represented in the lengthy earlier discussions. Again, a number of calligraphic images have been added recently, but eleven is apparently not enough for one or two editors. Johnbod (talk) 15:48, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

The 'calligraphy' has popped up several times in the discussion (I know, because I myself have 'popped it up' at least three or four times). However, it takes time for an argument to develop traction in an IDHT environment like this; such arguments need to go through several cycles of blanket dismissal before editors start to feel uncomfortable about continuing to ignore it. And incidentally, the issue is not 'more calligraphy', but rather a source-appropriate balance between different kinds of representation (as people keep saying, calligraphic representations are by far the norm). --Ludwigs2 15:55, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

... but are much less use to most of our readers, and in any case now outnumber figurative images nearly two to one. Jayen's issue can very clearly be summarized as "more calligraphy" - see above. Johnbod (talk) 16:01, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

John, that makes no sense:

• In reliable sources (not to mention the real world) abstract depictions outnumber figurative images by far more than 2:1. that implies there should be fewer figurative images.
• In what way are they of 'much less use' to our readers? Assumedly our readers know that Muhammad was a human being (as opposed to a dolphin or a horse), and these images tell us nothing more about Muhammad than that.

I understand that you believe that these images are more common and useful, but I see no real reason to believe that's true, and a whole lot of evidence to think it's false. --Ludwigs2 17:21, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

A pitcure of a person is a lot more useful than a calligraphical picture when talking about a human. I for one would be ok with reducing the quantity of pictures (As per the original resolution we were trying to work on before it got side tracked again) just like I am ok with more calligraphy as long as it brings something new to the table (we don't have a quranic text on a building yet and would do well in the legacy area.) Tivanir2 (talk) 19:30, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Tivanir2: That's ridiculous. We do not put pictures of random people on biographies just because we think biographies need pictures. Should we start going through all of the biographies on project where we do not have images of the actual person available and add stock images of male/female models? that's basically what you're suggesting we do with this article. nonsense. --Ludwigs2 22:52, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

It's clearly not remotely what he is suggesting. Your constant extrapolations of what people actually say are one reason that talk pages you are involved in mushroom in size without going anywhere. Johnbod (talk) 23:19, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

These aren't random pictures, these are depictions of Muhammad used in the article on Muhammad. Tarc (talk) 23:20, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Might as well use this image, yah?

They are no more pictures of Muhammad than a stock image of a male model is a picture of me; it's silly to suggest otherwise. I will grant that they are artistic representations of Muhammad, but then calligraphic drawings are also artistic representations of Muhammad (that's how they are used in Islamic culture), and calligraphic drawings are far more prevalent in reliable sources and the real world than figurative images.

John, if you think Tivanir2 is suggesting something else, pray tell what would that be? his intent seems pretty clear from "A picture of a person is a lot more useful than a calligraphical picture when talking about a human". Since they are not depictions of Muhammad, how is that sentence anything other than silly? --Ludwigs2 23:40, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Ahh, so you've moved on to a "they're not real pictures" argument. I guess File:Napoleon in His Study.jpg, File:Crispus Attucks.jpg, and File:AlexanderTheGreat Bust.jpg will have to be removed from their respective articles. After all, they're just "artistic representations" that we can't prove is really who the artist said it is, right? Tarc (talk) 23:53, 9 December 2011 (UTC)