Talk:Cham Albanians

About numbers

I've noticed some piece of information that can come in handy, especially about the number of the present population. The report is from the International Center for Minority Studies and Intercultural Relations. I believe that it is a reliable source, worth the try to mention something of that like:

During the ongoing dispute, each side began to present its own data on the number of Çams: according to the Greek authorities, they were about 80 000 persons, while according to the Albanian authorities their number was about 500 000. The figures cited were absolutely arbitrary, not based on any statistical surveys but rather seeking a suggestive impact.

There is more to look in there.

Sometimes M. Vickers uses one sided only information, not to mention that some of them are total wrong (especially about history, like Thesprotians were an ancient Illyrian tribe, and that there is a clear link between Illyria and Albania when she mentioned that 'the region was populated both by Illyrians and Greeks like today') and some others make you think that her papers (both 2002 and 2007) have nothing to do with a serious report (about collaboration of the Greek government with the Mafia and something about Albanian politicians and Greek taverns... suppose the next paper will deal with Albanian-Greek feasts) not to mention the possibility of a... Jihad. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexikoua (talk • contribs) 21:13, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

I feel that the way we decide what's is 'rs' or not may be not right. Let's notice some examples about M. Vickers's sources, they are usually some of the below:

• Discussion with Cham leaders... .
• Eyewitness accounts...(suppose it is original researh too).
• Citing some of Vickers past papers.
• Chameria organizations and Albanian newspapers.

99% of the sources are like the above.

The ca. 400.000 estimation about the Chams number has no sourcein Vickers (both 02. 07 paper). Suppose it's taken from Cham organizations.

Let's notice what says M. Vickers about history and how she disagrees with wikipedia:

• Thesprotians tribe was in antiquity Illyrian.
• The Byzantine Empire 'conquered' the region after the Roman empire. (see Epirus).
• Illyrians are for sure ancestors of modern Albanians ('...the area was inhabited both by Greeks and Illyrians in antiquity like today...) (see Illyrians
• The name of river Tsamis/Cham is Illyrian (see Thyamis)
• Chameria/Tsiamouria is a region with diferrent borders (sometimes is Thesprotia on other page is Epirus or Epirus and part of Macedonia reaching Prespa lake).

All the above have no citations. Not to mention something that she says something about the relation with Greek government and organized crime or about a potential Jihad (without giving seirous citation).

Suppose Vickers is the one source that dont meet wiki's criteria, a number of historical wiki articles disagrees with her. On the other hand Imir wich is a impartial organization agrees with what wiki states as 'rs' and the methodology is mentioned on the above 2 links.

I will add IMIR's estimation, provided that Vickers' is tottaly unsourced and her sources (if stated) are mostly no-rs (like the mentioned above examples).Alexikoua (talk) 18:16, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

As far as I saw, IMIR had no bibliography and no citation at all. If that author, would have been wikipedian, he would be indefinitely blocked. See WP:RS. For sure, it is not a reliable source.Balkanian`s word (talk) 22:31, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

If the above information is correct, I do not see any reason for which we should still include Vickers here. It is more than enough to exclude her from all articles.--Michael X the White (talk) 22:37, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Of course not, please see #Information about population exchange (Chams-Northern Epirotes).Balkanian`s word (talk) 17:40, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Notable Cham Albanians

It is a good addition in the article but some people have nothing to do with Chams, for example: Spata, Losha and Zenebishti are total irrelevant. They could be noted as 'Arvanitai' but not Chams.

a. They were born outside Chameria/Tsiamouria

b. They ruled territories outside Chameria /Tsiamouria

c. In that age there was not a single record about Chameria /Tsiamouria or chams/tsiamides, even more if there were albanian speaking populations there (and I mean in the territory of Thesprotia and Preveza prefectures).--Alexikoua (talk) 06:10, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Moreover, there is not an ancestral link. But if there are historical facts that give excact explanation we could have a clear image. In the article Cham history seems to start 1912, there is sure a historical gap between 14th and 20th century Alexikoua (talk) 16:40, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

That`s right, because I and Deucalionite have decided to edit in a later time the history section. But, for sure, Cham Albanians did not "born" in 1912. For sure they existed backwards. But, according to Helsinki Monitor Raport, Arvanites of Epirus are part of modern Albanian nation, and commonly (see Vickers) they are called Orthodox Cham Albanians. This means that, even if you add them in Arvanites article, it does not mean that they have no reason to exist in this page. Most of all, according to "History of Albanian People" Albanian Academy of Science.ISBN 9992716231, after the fall of their territory, Shpatas, etc, remained in these territories, so forming the Albanian population of Epirus. This means that they are the anecestors of Arvanites of Epirus (i.e. Orthodox Cham Albanians, see Helsinki raport and Vickers). On the other hand, some of them were converted to Islam, see Jakup Shpata the last despot of Arta, thus being the anescetors of muslim Cham Albanians.Balkanian`s word (talk) 17:22, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

But you mean that Chams and Arvanites of Epirus were excact the same? and I mean even the Arvanites/Albanians from areas that are not geographically included in Chameria/Tsiamouria? (Ioannina and Arta perf. for example Faik Konica could be a Cham?)

According to my research, the region of Thesprotia, which was called Vachenetia during 14th century, wasnt ruled by Albanian lords. It remained most of the time, part of the Despotate of Ioannina, until the Ottomans occupied Epirus (1430).

As for Jakup Shpata, its really interesting the fact that he was the first despot that joined Islam (he might did that to secure an alliance with ottomans but finally failed). But according to my sources Shpata's relatives didnt not joined Islam (like 'Dimos Bouas' lord of Aggelokastro and Acheloos area ca. 1420 after Spata's death). It was probably a seperate unique action of strategic importance and not a massive convertion to Islam.

According to sources in paramythia-online.gr, massive convertions to Islam in the area occured after the failed revolt of 1611.

The fact that the term Chams and Chameria emerged some centuries later (off course long before 1912), makes things complicated about 'labelling' a personality of the 14th century as Cham.

I believe that the related section in history should be added first (pre 1912), in order to have a more clear view about the past, because some sources seem that contradict eachother.Alexikoua (talk) 20:50, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I think that this is the most difficult part of the article, but we have to deal with it. What we today call Cham Albanians, are descendats of "Vagnetian Albanians", as "Shqipetar" are descendats of "Arbers". This is a unique case I think in the history, were certain groups or nations, change their names, as Albanians have done. But, we cannot say that Scanderbeg was not "Shqiptar", only because he did not know his name back than. That is the reason why we left for latter the edition of history section. I propose that we add as Cham Albanians, every Albanian that was from that region (Thesprotia-Vagnetia-Chameria), for the reasons I stated above. What do you propose. We must reach a common standard, in order to edit the history section, and to find the notable "cham" Albanians.Balkanian`s word (talk) 21:09, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree to add personalities that were geographically from Thesprotia-Vag(e)netia-Chameria/Tsiamouria region. But this excludes the specidic medieval lords that were from Arta, Delvine, Acheloos, Aggelokastro.

I have found some information about these despots and made additions on related articles. I' ll soon add the related sources. But were these lords called 'Vagnetians', did we know how they called themselves? (according to Greek medieval records they were called 'Arvanitai') It is certain that they married princesses of other nations, in order to legitimate their titles (something usuall for that age)

The term Vahenetia/Vagnetia derives from a slavic tribe that invaded and some of them settled in the area during 500-600 A.D., according to Vasiliev's Byzantine History.--Alexikoua (talk) 07:05, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

(according to Greek medieval records they were called 'Arvanitai')

During this period 'Arvanitai' meant Albanians, and not Arvanites. You know, even Gehg Albanians in Greek mediveal records is called 'Arvanitai'. They could not call themselves Vagnetians, because such a term did not exist to Albanian ethnonym. During this period albanians were called all Arber, or Arvanit, or Albans. for further info see Albanians. So, I think we should add,all those who are from this region, and not them who call themselves "Vagnetians"Balkanian`s word (talk) 10:36, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree in this point, to add personalities that are from this region. According to the map cities such as Arta, Delvine, Finiq, Aggelokastro are outside from the region.

I agree also about the use of term 'Arvanitai' in medieval Greek records. Byzantine historians like Michael Attaliates and Anna Comnenus, Niketas Choniates gave usually names to nations that virtually were wrong (according to modern historians). For example the Turks were recorded as Persians, because of the ancient people that lived in the Middle East area. Something similar happened with the Pechenegs, they were recorded as Scythes (the ancient people of the same geographical region). Byzantine records gave (ancient) names to nations, that were total irrelevant with them. There was only the geographical coinsidence.Alexikoua (talk) 18:28, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Comments

1) Clarified a point on minority treatment by Mataxas (not all minorities were mistreated and the discrimination was along political support lines more than ethnic ones) 2) The article had no mention of the Balli Kombëtar and the role of the Balists in persecuting Greeks and Jews during the occupation. I amended that.

Albanau, if you object to this form of the article, please discuss it here. It is not acceptable, among other things, to refer to provinces of independent countries as though they rightfully belonged to another independent country. Chronographos 15:10, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

It wasen't me I allways use my account. However Chronographos what you wrote is clearly not NPOV.

Çamëria (or Chameria) is the name sometimes used by Albanians to refer to the Greek province of Epirus. The area probably was home to an ethnic group of Albanian origin and Muslim faith, the Chams. The Chams are believed to have fled to Albania during, and immediately following, World War II, probably because they had been persecuted by Greek Resistance guerilla groups fighting against the Nazi occupation army, on the belief that Chams had cooperated with the Albanian-launched invasion of Greece by the Mussolini fascist regime in 1940, and had continued cooperation with the Nazi occupiers. Greek censuses mention no Muslim presence in Epirus since 1951; they do not include linguistic data.

Albanau 14:57, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

The article proper should just redirect to Epirus, the region's continuous name from time immemorial until now. Your insistence to be using an Albanian name for a province of Greece is rather telling. Chronographos 15:05, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

I propose that it should be redirected to Çamë!... one more thing, Çamëria is according to Albanian understanding a region in northwestern Greece, so there is nothing wrong with this. Albanau 15:25, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Corrected reference to "under Greek influence" in 4th century. Removed refernce to "Cham Christians". Acerimusdux 17:08, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Albanau's suggestion that this article should refer to the Chame people and not to Epirus. I think this is a fair compromise. Acerimusdux, do you agree as well? Chronographos 17:16, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Not entirely. Since the region is at least corresponds roughly with what is known as ancient Epirus, I think this needs to at least be mentioned, with a prominent link to the main article on Epirus for more information. I don't think a simple redirect is informative enough, though. When this conflict over "Chams" arose on the Albanians page, I had no idea what it was about and had to do a bit of research. Wikipedia at that point was of no help at all. There ought to be room for an article of some sort that at least outlines what this is about, with as much a NPOV as possible. I also don't believe Albanau ever siad the article shouldn't mention Epirus. He simply said there was nothing wrong with it mentioning Chameria. If you want to include all of the information in the article on Epirus, they could certainly be combined, with the name Albanian name Chameria mentioned prominently in bold at the top of that article, and a section added including the history of the expulsion of the Chams followng WWII, but I think a seperate article will be more convenient for readers.

I also think the page title should comply with wikipedia conventions which say "Title your pages using the English name, if one exists, and give the native spelling on the first line of the article. If the native spelling is not in the Latin alphabet, also provide a Latin transliteration. Only use the native spelling as an article title if it is more commonly used in English than the anglicized form." So the appropriate name is "Chameria", with the native spellings following (maybe in parenthesis) on the first line. No one will find this article as it is - no one is going to do a search on English Wikipedia for a word using non-standard English characters.Acerimusdux 20:00, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

I agree that the article may mention that "Chameria" is the name Albanians sometimes use for Epirus, properly linked. I also have no objection to describe what may or may not have happened to the Chams, provided both sides of the story (Albanian, Greek, or what have you) are given. In other words, as long as NPOV is adhered to, I will have no problem. Chronographos 20:39, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

---

An interesting thing about (modern) Greek arguments is that different rules always apply to Greeks and non-Greeks. So, it is unacceptable to use alternative names for territory in other countries? What do Greeks call Istanbul? Constantinople, I think. Or why do Greeks call southern Albania "NOrthern Epirus"? Basically, Greek people need to accept common rules for everyone, rathern than trying to cheat the rest of the world with fake historical arguments.

---

Disgrace

This artice is a disgrace! There's more POV here than in the Nazi mysticism and Holocaust denial articles put together. There's petty nationalist POV here from the Greek perspective and from the Albanian perspective. This should be remedied as per Wikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic Groups Template and above all, RELIABLE SOURCES should be found. You cannot make up things as you go along... Rexhep Bojaxhiu 12:09, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

One problem here is whether WikiProject Ethnic Group applies here, as these people are Ethnic Albanians and identify as such. Are there any similar articles on similar minorities which we could copy? Rexhep Bojaxhiu 12:13, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

You're right there. It is a highly problematic article and full of various POVs. I don't know enough about the subject to make the necessary corrections, however. --Damac 08:18, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

To start with, I'm going to move this article to Cham Albanians; it's the best thing to do. Albanian diacritics should not be used in accordance with Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English), and Cham on its own may cause confusion with the Cham people of Eastern Asia. Rexhep Bojaxhiu 12:09, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Good start, Rexhep Bojaxhiu

Well done on improving this article. I was wondering if you could provide more concrete references for some of the figures mentioned in the article, such as the numbers of victims murdered by Zervas's troops and, in particular, the claim that there are 200,000 Chams living in Greece today. --Damac 22:14, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

The 200,000 Chams living in Greece comes from the UNPO Website. The UNPO also say that there are 280,000 Vorioipirote Greeks in Albania. Those figures probably are the absolute maximum though. The Albanian authorities claim that there are 36,000 Greeks in Albania, and the Greek authorities claim that there are no Chams in Greece, but only Albanian immigrants which they say number over 500,000. Rexhep Bojaxhiu 14:50, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

The numbers of the victims of the EDES come from the MOD pdf. I'll copy-paste the relevant parts here soon, but I can't open it now (the computer I'm using now doesn't support PDFs). I'll do it later today. Rexhep Bojaxhiu 14:50, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't have to - I have added it to the article. Rexhep Bojaxhiu 17:42, 15 November 2005 (UTC)]

This article is a disgrace

[inflammatory comments removed at 16:30, 9 June 2006 (UTC)]

Telex, please explain why you removed this comment. If not it comes back. Politis 16:51, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

For being inflammatory, totally unhelpful to the article and containing personal attacks against an entire nation. --Telex 16:54, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I can understand why you disliked it, but his comments are only targeting the people who contributed. As far as I can tell, there are no attacks against an entire nation but against the Hoxha regime - and in this he echos the voices of millions of Albanians who believe they suffered during those years! Where do you see those attacks? Politis 17:02, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Links

I removed the link to www.unpo.ee because (a) it does not appear to be the official link to UNPO (that is www.unpo.org) and (b) There is no mention of Cham Albanians in the UNPO website. TheArchon 15:46, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I disagree, that website was from the Tartu Coordination Office of the UNPO (which we know exists from the org website), the website you are claiming is the official website does claim to have Chameria as a member [1]. Telex 15:55, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing that out. It seems that Cham Albanians were a member of UNPO in 1995, but they do not seem to be mentioned in the current member list. TheArchon 16:57, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Not according to the Tartu office. Nevertheless, the SPAÇ is based in Tirana, so maybe the article should make this clear. Telex 17:01, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

That is confusing, because the .org website seems not to mention Chameria as a current member or have a report on the Cham. TheArchon 17:12, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. I see two possibilities: either SPAÇ is a member and was left out of the .org list by mistake, or they are not a member and the .ee list is out of date. I suggest we contact them (UNPO) directly and ask them to check their membership rolls; they can be contacted by phone fax or e-mail. Telex 17:18, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Done! TheArchon 17:27, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

What? Telex 17:30, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I sent UNPO an email message, asking them to clarify which of the two lists is correct. TheArchon 17:46, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

OK - good. Telex 17:46, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

According to a representative UNPO contacted through .www.unpo.org (name withheld) "At present, Chameria is not a member of UNPO and their inclusion in the website of the Tartu office (www.unpo.ee) can be considered erroneous." and will be corrected as soon as possible. TheArchon 08:55, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

World War Two Events

I am not an expert on the issue per se but I have done extensive study of British SOE and US OSS activities in the Near East and Balkans during the war.

The long quote from Joseph Jacobs really leads the wikipeida reader astray. This eviction was specifically ordered by British liaison to EDES, Col. Chris Woodhouse, and he says so in his memiors. The British liason was not an advisor but the de facto commander as London and SOE controlled all supply and funds to the EDES resistance. In fact he had been sent to replace Col. Eddie Myers, who London believed was not attacking the Nazi allied Albanian's forcably enough. The British at the time in Balkans were working at cross interests and often in direct opposition to the US OSS work. The OSS was doing things the British did not like, like supporting non Monarchist resistanc groups, helping Jews evacuate to Palestine, etc. Jacobs also was has to be taken with a grain of salt. None of his reporting is actually first hand.

Territory of Cameria

In the Albanian Wikipedia page they say :

The region in the Greek part of the region of Epirus is about 6000 km² (Epirus has 9203 km²).

If you analyse the map in this same Wikipedia you'll see that Cameria outpasses the Thesprotia borders !

So why do you identify Cameria with Thesprotia ? Are the writers in the Albanian Wikipedia all wrong ?

--~April 14th 2008CUSENZA Mario (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 18:33, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually yes, they are. The Cat and the Owl (talk) 18:43, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Sources please...

In order to prevent an edit war, I will open this discussion and ask that users advocating the statements below to please provide any relevant sources:

Although, the massacres that took part in this region (massacre of Paramythia and Chrysi), against the Christian-Orthodox population, had the support of hundreds of Cham militias, no Cham criminal had been brought to trial after WWII, they found refuge behind the Albanian border after retreating together with the Nazi forces at 1944.

If the above statements are true, then they need to be verified as soon as possible. There is no guarantee that unsourced statements will remain in the article for very long. Deucalionite (talk) 16:53, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I took the liberty of fixing the mechanics of the unsourced statements:

The massacres that took part in this region (Paramythia and Chrysi) against the Christian-Orthodox population had the support of hundreds of Cham militias. There are no reports of Cham criminals having been brought to trial after World War II. They found refuge behind the Albanian border after retreating together with the Nazis in 1944.

Again, I urge all users to provide sources if they advocate these statements. Otherwise, they will be deleted in the near future. Deucalionite (talk) 17:28, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I am pleased to declare that User:84.38.8.42 implemented vital reference citations to the unsourced statements I mentioned earlier. Deucalionite (talk) 15:57, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

the lead

"because of their collaborating activity with the Nazi forces". If there are several hundreds in Elas, how could it be "their collaborating activity". It is generalised. I propose "becouse some of them collaborated with Nazi forces" What do you think?balkanian (talk) 18:05, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

I think that since there were many Cham Albanians prior to WWII, it is only logical to assume that those outside of the majority of Nazi sympathizers would still constitute a sizeable force.

If there is evidence to indicate that most Chams did in fact support the Germans during World War II, then we as users must adhere to the evidence. Deucalionite (talk) 19:03, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

We need a reference about that. There were 20.000 cham albanians in Thesprotia, the only reference we have is that "several hundreds had joined ELAS". We need a reference that the majority (all, some, many?) were sympathizers of the Nazi. We cannot say that all of them were either in one side, or in the other. There is always a middle point. All the references I have read till now, either here, or in books says that the majority of cham leaders collaborated. This doesn`t mean that the majority of Chams collaborated. Let me assume (just per talk): If there were several hundred Albanians that fought with Elas, how many would have joined Nazis? For sure not children, old and women (i.e. the majority of population) and for sure not all man (this is impossible and unsourced. So why do we continue to say that they (all?) collaborated. I think that "some" is more apropriate, till we find a reference about the exact number or group.balkanian (talk) 19:09, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree that more references are needed. I understand the dilemmas you are facing. If sources state that only Cham leaders collaborated with the Nazis, then that automatically does not prove that those leaders commanded the majority population of Chams. However, if sources state that both the majority of Chams and Cham leaders sympathized with the Nazis, then we as users must make this explicitly known in the article. Deucalionite (talk) 19:41, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

This is the part that Vickers is speaking for their collaboration. She says "supposed colaboration", "accused for collaboration", but not that they colaborated. She says that they were "prejudiced" by both greeeks and albanians. So her reference is out of any case. "Background The Chams have a strong sense of tradition, identity and community which has united them over the past 62 years since their expulsion from Greece as suspected Nazi collaborators.5 This is in part due to the violence they suffered historically, but also to a collective prejudice against them on both sides of the border. Many Chams were persecuted by the Albanian Communist regime, which like the Greeks, believed that they had collaborated with the Italians and Germans during the Second World War Whereas in Albania and the diaspora Cham communities have managed to preserve their dialect, traditions and folk songs, in Greece itself those Orthodox Chams, now numbering around 40,000, who were allowed to remain in Greece, have suffered from assimilation and the public suppression of their Albanian heritage and language. As a result, Albanian is only spoken privately in the home. The mountain Chams were largely Orthodox Christians and the coastal and lowland Chams were mostly Muslim. By classifying the coastal Chams as "Turks" rather than Albanians, Greek historians have been able to justify the earlier confiscation of Cham-owned land, much of which was given to Greek refugees from Turkey during the population exchanges in 1923.6 Following their expulsion from Greece, most of the poorer Chams went to Albania, whilst the wealthier ones went to America and Turkey. Nevertheless, today the Chams are amongst the richest and most successful entrepreneurs in contemporary Albania." balkanian (talk) 19:54, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

We finally have a number...and guess what, it is "several hundreds". Mazower says that cham acitivists were willing to unite Chameria with Albania, and that several hundreds enlisted in Balli Kombetar, helping Nazi`s. "Not surprisingly, when the Italians finally took control of mainland Greece in 1942, they found Cham activists willing to call for unification of the region with Albania. Several hundred were conscripted into the anticommunist Bal Komitare to act as lokal gendarmes." balkanian (talk) 20:04, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

I do not understand what is cited in the article? What do you think?balkanian (talk) 20:05, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Please consult the citations review below. Deucalionite (talk) 20:18, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Citations review

This section is geared towards analyzing, scrutinizing, and verifying all in-line citations currently implemented in the article. I will add my recommendations towards improving all references involved.

1) Vickers, Miranda. The Cham Issue - Where to Now? Paper prepared for the British MoD, Defence Academy, 2002.

This is a viable citation. However, there are no direct quotes that can help verify the statements that are supposedly supported by this source.

2) Elsie, Robert. A Dictionary of Albanian Religion, Mythology, and Folk Culture. New York University Press, 2000, ISBN 0814722148, p. 131. "Jelim. Figure of southern Albanian mythology. These giants, Alb. jelim, def. jelimi, from Gk. έλλην 'Greek' with Slavic transmission, were known to the Saranda region. The Çams (of southern Çamëria region) believed themselves to be descended from a race of ancient jelims. cf. M. Lambertz 1973, p. 482; E. Cabej 1974b, p. 204."

Perfect citation. This should serve as an example as to how professional and realistic reference citations should look like on any given article.

3) Mazower, Mark. After The War Was Over: Reconstructing the Family, Nation and State in Greece, 1943-1960. Princeton University Press, 2000, ISBN 0691058423, p. 25.

This is a viable citation. However, there are no direct quotes that can help verify the statements that are supposedly supported by this source.

4) Vickers, Miranda. The Cham Issue - Albanian National & Property Claims in Greece. Paper prepared for the British MoD, Defence Academy, 2002.

This is a viable citation. However, there are no direct quotes that can help verify the statements that are supposedly supported by this source.

5) Russell King, Nicola Mai, and Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers. The New Albanian Migration. Sussex Academic Press, 2005, ISBN 1903900786, pp. 67 and 87.

This is a viable citation. However, there are no direct quotes that can help verify the statements that are supposedly supported by this source.

6) Kresti, Georgia. The Secret Past of the Greek-Albanian Borderlands. Cham Muslim Albanians: Perspectives on a Conflict over Historical Accountability and Current Rights.

Terrible citation. Author and title of book/paper are not sufficient. All citations require author name(s), title of book/paper, publishing information, ISBN # (if available), page number, and direct quote(s).

7) Mazower, Mark. After The War Was Over: Reconstructing the Family, Nation and State in Greece, 1943-1960. Princeton University Press, 2000, ISBN 0691058423, p. 26. "...Elas was opposed to the idea of collective punishment of the Cham community. Several hundred Chams had enlisted in its ranks..."

Excellent citation. However, the direct quote could be expanded a little.

8) Mazower, Mark. Inside Hitler's Greece: The Experience of Occupation, 1941-44. Yale University Press, 1993, ISBN 0300089236.

This is a viable citation. However, there are no direct quotes that can help verify the statements that are supposedly supported by this source.

9) The Society Farsarotul - Southern Albanian, Northern Epirus: Survey of a Disputed Ethnological Boundary (Tom J. Winnifrith)

I am not sure if website information should be incorporated into this article. Further scrutiny is necessary.

10) Vickers, Miranda and Petiffer, James. The Albanian Question. I.B. Tauris, 2007, ISBN 1860649742, p. 238. "In a town such as Igoumenitsa (Albanian Goumenitsa), the Albanian language is still spoken by a minority of inhabitants."

Perfect citation. This should serve as an example as to how professional and realistic reference citations should look like on any given article.

Please contribute wherever necessary. Thank you. Deucalionite (talk) 20:13, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Suggestions

The first citation. I think it is irrelevant. The only statement made by the author about Albanians in Turkey is that "Following their expulsion from Greece, most of the poorer Chams went to Albania, whilst the wealthier ones went to America and Turkey." balkanian (talk) 20:18, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Vickers does not say about any cham returned in Greece. balkanian (talk) 20:20, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

If that is the case, then the citation is useless. Hopefully, other users can attest to your analysis so that we can avoid any potential edit-wars. For the time being, however, the reference citation should be removed.

Any other suggestions? Deucalionite (talk) 20:23, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

There is another book by Vickers "The Albanians: Modern History", which contains information about the population exchange, but I cannot view it right now, due to bad internet connection.balkanian (talk) 20:32, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

I'll check it out. Deucalionite (talk) 20:36, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Here is what I found:

Vickers, Miranda. The Albanians: Modern History. I.B. Tauris, 1997, ISBN 1860645410, p. 113. "In March 1924, the Mixed Commission decided that Greek subjects who were Muslims and of Albanian origin, and more specifically those residing in Epirus, had to be excluded from the compulsory exchange of populations between Greece and Turkey. Indeed, in accordance with the above-mentioned decision, a special delegation headed by Swede Eric Einer Ekstrand visited Epirus (and Macedonia) to collect information on people of Albanian origin. However, the members of this delegation concluded that the great majority of Muslims who were Greek subjects thought of Turkey as their country of origin and were willing to be included in the exchange of populations." 20:48, 9 September 2008 (UTC) Deucalionite (talk)

I have made some changes with references in the article. What do you think?balkanian (talk) 09:31, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I implemented some tweaks, but need some help further enhancing the citations you provided.

1) Vickers, Miranda. The Cham Issue - Where to Now? Paper prepared for the British MoD, Defence Academy, 2002. "In Greece those Orthodox Chams, now numbering around 40,000, who were allowed to remain in Greece, have suffered from assimilation and the public suppression of their Albanian heritage and language. As a result, Albanian language is only spoken privately in the home!"

Could you please verify the exact wording of the direct quote? I found some mistakes in the quote itself and need you to double-check it.

2) Mazower, Mark. After The War Was Over: Reconstructing the Family, Nation and State in Greece, 1943-1960. Princeton University Press, 2000, ISBN 0691058423. "Not surprisingly, when the Italians finally took control of mainland Greece in 1942, they found Cham activists willing to call for unification of the region with Albania. Several hundred were conscripted into the anticommunist Bal Komitare to act as local gendarmes."

Great citation. However, you forgot to add the exact page number(s).

Please review my suggestions when you get the chance. Deucalionite (talk) 13:54, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

For the first reference, I don`t know how but I miswrote the citation. The exact citation is this "This is in part due to the violence they suffered historically, but also to a collective prejudice against them on both sides of the border. Many Chams were persecuted by the Albanian Communist regime, which like the Greeks, believed that they had collaborated with the Italians and Germans during the Second World War Whereas in Albania and the diaspora Cham communities have managed to preserve their dialect, traditions and folk songs, in Greece itself those Orthodox Chams, now numbering around 40,000, who were allowed to remain in Greece, have suffered from assimilation and the public suppression of their Albanian heritage and language. As a result, Albanian is only spoken privately in the home"balkanian (talk) 13:58, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

For Mazower is page 25.balkanian (talk) 14:01, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Excellent work my friend! Any other suggestions? Deucalionite (talk) 14:02, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I think that the lead is totally NPOV now. But I think, we should reword the first sentence because it is too long and with more info that it needs. We can make it like this: Cham Albanians are a group of ethnic Albanians originally residing in the region called in Albanian Çamëria and in Greek Thesprotia. This is part of the larger region of Epirus and corresponds to the prefecture of Thesprotia and northern part of prefecture of Preveza.balkanian (talk) 14:08, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

To make things even simpler, I recommend the following sentence: "Cham Albanians are a group of ethnic Albanians originally residing close to the Thyamis River in Epirus (Greek: Θύαμις, Albanian: Çam)."

I think we should avoid implementing specific geographical delimitations in order to avoid any possible "my land, your land" edit-wars. Deucalionite (talk) 14:38, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I do not agree. The cham Albanians have their name from the river but they lived in a wider area. The river is irrelevant at this point, (i.e. in the geographical context). balkanian (talk) 14:46, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

If that is the case, then we should write the following statements: "Cham Albanians, or Chams, are a group of ethnic Albanians whose name derives from the Çam (or Thyamis) River. They originally resided in areas of Epirus that correspond to the modern Greek prefectures of Thesprotia and northern Preveza."

What do you think? Deucalionite (talk) 15:16, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Totally agree. The name of the river should be only in english, not Albanian, according to WP:NCGNbalkanian (talk) 15:48, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Excellent! I am going ahead with the changes. If I make any errors, then please feel free to revise them. Deucalionite (talk) 16:10, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I made the changes already, so feel free to change anything you find suspicious.balkanian (talk) 16:12, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. By the way, could you please review the edits I just made to parts of the introductory paragraph? Deucalionite (talk) 16:47, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I think the first version was better. It was concetrated as a lead should be. This one has much more information that would be better to be added in the main part of the article not in the lead.balkanian (talk) 17:12, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Also, sentences like this "Chams residing in Albania and abroad retained their language, folk songs, and traditions." seems not quite correct, since chams speak albanian so it is normal that they would retain their language in Albania.balkanian (talk) 17:13, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Good point. However, we have to make sure that statements in the article reflect their reference citations. What suggestions do you have? Deucalionite (talk) 17:40, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

My proposal is as following for three main reasons: Firstly, this is an article about a certain group of population, so we shopuld include since the begining their characteristics (ex rezidence (for which they are distinguished from other albanians), language and religion. Secondly, we should say where are they today and why were they expelled. Thirdly, the lead should be compact. This is it: "Albanian: Çamë, Greek: Τσάμηδες Tsámidhes) are a group of ethnic Albanians, who originally resided in areas of Epirus that correspond to the modern Greek prefectures of Thesprotia and northern Preveza. Cham Albanians speak the Albanian language and are predominantly Muslim, with a sizable Orthodox Christian minority. After World War II, almost all Muslim Cham Albanians were expelled from their homes in Greece, because some of them[2] collaborated with the Nazi forces, although some provided military support to the Greek resistance forces of ELAS.[4] No Cham criminal was ever brought to trial.[3] Nowadays, they live mostly in Albania, while some were sent to Turkey during the 1923 population exchange between Greece and Turkey. Orthodox Chams remained in Greece, but they have suffered from assimilation and public supression of their Albanian heritage and language.[1]" What do you think?balkanian (talk) 17:59, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Perfect. Excellent work! I'll go ahead with the changes. Deucalionite (talk) 18:02, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Instead of "some of them collaborated with the Nazi forces", I put in "a number of them collaborated with the Axis Powers". These are just minor tweaks I felt needed to be implemented in order to improve the introductory paragraph. By the way, should we refer to the massacres done by the Chams in the lead or is that going too far? Deucalionite (talk) 18:17, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

It is perfect. We can refer to the massacres, but I am afraid that it would go to long, because if we refer to Paramythia massacre, done by Nazi`s and Chams, we should also refer to the massacres of Filiates and Paramythia, done by Edes, in order to make it NPOV. So, it would became again a long lead. It would be better in the history section. What do you think?balkanian (talk) 18:26, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I completely agree. However, I am getting the strange feeling that if we don't provide some general mention of the massacres, then someone else with an axe to grind will. If we can just incorporate something about the massacres that is NPOV, then we can automatically remove the ability for other POV-oriented users to do so. What are your thoughts? Deucalionite (talk) 18:48, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I said it above, feel free to add the massacres but both of them.balkanian (talk) 18:53, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Okay. Here is my suggestion: "Conflicts between EDES and Elas led the former to expel many Chams who perished during their exodus from Greece. However, the Chams were involved in massacres against Greeks in areas such as Paramythia and Chrysi." I know these are some bold statements, but I think we can pull this off. What do you think? Deucalionite (talk) 19:08, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I think it is still POV. This is my sugestion:"Being discriminated by Greek government, some Chams welcomed Italian and Nazi occupation forces and were involved in massacres against Greeks in areas such as Paramythia and Chrysi, without the aproval of the local beys and muftis ref-Mark Mazower, I will give it later to you the exact citation-ref. When the war was finishing conflicts between EDES and Elas led the former to expel allmost all Chams, leading in tow massacres in their villages and towns. -again referenced with Mazower-"balkanian (talk) 19:14, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Alright. Let me tweak what you have written: "Persecuted by the Greek government, a number of Chams invited Italian and German occupation forces. They were also involved in massacres against Greeks at Paramythia and Chrysi without the approval of the local beys and muftis. After the Axis Powers left Greece, conflicts between EDES and Elas led the former to expel nearly all Chams, massacring them in the process." Any thoughts? Deucalionite (talk) 19:25, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

It is fine, but with two minor fixes. "Persecuted by the Greek government, a number of Chams invited Italian and German occupation forces" Chams did not "invite" italian and germans, they collaborated. "A number" is too general, several hundred is sourced and more acquirate. And in the end of the paragraph "masacring them in two organised attacs", per reference.

Also, per reference we should name Muslim Chams, since our references talk about Orthodox Chams too, which were not part. In addition, we may say "...led the former to expel all, but 117 Chams"balkanian (talk) 10:52, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

How about this? "Persecuted by the Greek government, several hundred Muslim Chams collaborated with Italian and German occupation forces. They were also involved in massacres against Greeks at Paramythia and Chrysi without the approval of the local beys and muftis. After the Axis Powers left Greece, conflicts between EDES and Elas led the former to expel all except 117 Chams, massacring them in the process."

Did you manage to get those references you spoke about earlier? Deucalionite (talk) 14:33, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

The source by Mazower: "The war saw communal relations worsen quickly. In October 1940, the Greek authorities disarmed 1,800 Cham conscriptes and put them to work on lokal road; the following month they seized all Albanian males not called up and deported them to camps or to island exile. Not surprisingly, when the Italians finally took control of mainland Greece in 1941, they found Cham activists willing to call for unification of the region with Albania. Several hundred were conscripted into the anti-communist Bal Komitare (Balli Kombetar, my edit) to act as local gendarmes. From the autum of 1943, these armed bands took part alongside the Wehrmacht in burning Greek villages. Such actions, it seems, were not supported by many of the local beys, nor by the Mufti. By the summer of 1944, it was obvious that a German withdrawal from Epiros was imminent. After the Cham bands turned down a demand from EDES to join it against the left-wing ELAS, EDES`s leader Napoleon Zervas ordered a general atack on the Cham villages. Two atacks took place, in July and August, with the participation of the EDES Tenth Division and local Greek peasants, eager to gain revenge for the burning of their homes: many of the cham villages were burned, and the remaining inhabitants- some 18,000 – fled across the border into Albania.”

Then he speaks for the return of some 4-5 thousand Cham Albanians, when ELAS came into force in Epirus, but after the Varkiza agrement he states:

“They were not slow to turn their attention back to the Chams. Led by Zervas`s former officer, Col. Zotos, a lose paramilitary grouping of the former guerillas and local men wet on a rampage. In the worst massacre, at the town of Filiates on 13 March, some sixty to seventy Chams were killed. The rest fled back across into Albania, leaving just the few families encountered in grim cicumstances by a British United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration worker that summer”

You can read the whole section in Google boks, in this site, pages 25-26. I will change my proposal to another one totally basen on this book a bit later.balkanian (talk) 15:15, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

What about this:"Persecuted by the Greek government, several hundred Muslim Chams were also involved in burning Greek villages and massacres against Greeks at Paramythia and Chrysi without the approval of the local beys and muftis. After the Muslim Cham bands turned down a demand from EDES to join it against the left-wing ELAS, EDES`s leader Napoleon Zervas ordered a general atack, which lead in massacres, burning of cham villages, and the expelltion of all Muslim Chams across the border into Albania. " I removed that their collaborated with NAZI, because it is in the second paragraph of the lead.balkanian (talk) 17:39, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

The sugestion for the whole lead:
Cham Albanians, or Chams (Albanian: Çamë, Greek: Τσάμηδες Tsámidhes), are a group of ethnic Albanians, who originally resided in areas of Epirus that correspond to the modern Greek prefectures of Thesprotia and northern Preveza. Cham Albanians speak the Albanian language and are predominantly Muslim, with a sizable Orthodox Christian minority.

"After World War II, almost all Muslim Cham Albanians were expelled from their homes in Greece, because a number of them collaborated with the Axis Powers, although approximately the same amount of muslim Albanians provided military support to the Greek resistance forces of ELAS. No Cham criminal was ever brought to trial.

Persecuted by the Greek government, several hundred Muslim Chams were also involved in burning Greek villages and massacres against Greeks at Paramythia and Chrysi without the approval of the local beys and muftis. After the Muslim Cham bands turned down a demand from EDES to join it against the left-wing ELAS, EDES`s leader Napoleon Zervas ordered a general atack, which lead in massacres, burning of cham villages, and the expultion of all Muslim Chams across the border into Albania. balkanian (talk) 17:58, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I apologize for taking so long to look over your suggestions. I must say that what you have submitted looks really good. However, please review any revisions I have made so that we can come to a consensus regarding the lead:

"Cham Albanians, or Chams (Albanian: Çamë, Greek: Τσάμηδες Tsámidhes), are a group of ethnic Albanians, who originally resided in areas of Epirus that correspond to the modern Greek prefectures of Thesprotia and northern Preveza. Chams speak the Albanian language and are predominantly Muslim, with a sizable Orthodox Christian minority."

"After World War II, almost all Muslim Chams were expelled from their homes in Greece. This is due to a number of them having collaborated with the Axis Powers. Yet, approximately the same amount of Muslim Chams provided military support to the Greek resistance forces of ELAS. Since the war, no Cham criminal was ever brought to trial."

"Several hundred Muslim Chams were involved in burning Greek villages and in massacring Greeks at Paramythia and Chrysi. These actions seemingly occurred without the approval of the Mufti and most local beys. EDES leader, Napoleon Zervas, ordered an attack on Muslim Chams after they rejected orders to join the organization in order to fight against ELAS. Villages were burned and many Chams were massacred before they were ultimately expelled across the border into Albania." Deucalionite (talk) 20:03, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

We have to find two things before the final edit. Firstly, references that chams did take part in massacres in paramythia and chrisi from a reliable source. Secondly, it would be better if we have the number of the massacred of both communities. By the way, what do you think about the new structure?balkanian (talk) 20:11, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Also, I think we should not remove the "persecuted by the greek government" part.balkanian (talk) 20:13, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree that specific references regarding the massacres at Paramythia and Chrysi must be implemented. Technically, we should go through each of the reference citations and see which direct quotes we need in order to substantiate any statements in the article. For now, Mazower provides a very general mention of Chams burning Greek villages during 1943 (autumn). Vickers is also cited, but there is no direct quote to substantiate anything in the text.

As for the new system you have implemented, I must say that I really like it. Of course, I will have to implement my usual "minor tweaks" (to be honest, we don't need to add section titles if there is no data to be inserted).

I will re-instate the phrase "persecuted by the Greek government" in the lead since I only removed it for simplification purposes. Nothing else really.

Any other suggestions? Deucalionite (talk) 20:25, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I am adding a in Paramythia and Chrysi part, in order that every user try to find references. I added section titles, in order that every user try to find material, but whatever we can remove them. Nice edits friend.balkanian (talk) 21:02, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Oh crap, I forgot to re-instate the fact tags you added to the lead before I fixed up the article. Give me a second. Deucalionite (talk) 21:28, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I re-instated the fact tags you implemented earlier. Now that I have organized and simplified the reference citations, I think now we should go ahead and verify each and every one of them.

By the way, I apologize for deleting the two reference citations in the article. One of them belonged to Mazower (After the War, p. 25) and there I could not find anything explicit about Muslim Chams being discriminated during the Metaxas administration. The other reference citation I deleted is attributed to George Kresti whose work I could not find on Google books or anywhere for that matter.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Deucalionite (talk) 21:43, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Good job aboutMazower on Metaxas, it seemed doubious to me too. About Kresti I have her book, soI will bring the exact citation.balkanian (talk) 06:42, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Reading again the lead, I think I have a last proposal. Mazower does not state that the Chams were expelled only due to some collaborators. He says that this was due to "revenge for the collaboration", "creating an ethnic pure state", "not compromising with EDES in the war against ELAS". So, they were expelled for several reasons, but the reason that was revealed by EDES was that they all were collaborators. Also, they werent expelled after the war but at the end of the war, according to Mazower. My sugestion is to change the second paragraph as follows: "At the end World War II, almost all Muslim Chams were expelled from their homes into Albania, accused by the wright wing liberation army of Greece EDES, as having collaborated with occupation forces. Indeed, several hundreds of them had collaborated with the Axis Powers, through the organisation Balli Kombetar, but approximately the same amount of Muslim Chams provided military support to the Greek resistance forces of ELAS, while others were civilians, not involved in the war.[1][2] Since the war, no criminal of Cham origin was ever brought to trial.[3]"

Secondly, what do you think, should we put the current population of Cham Albanians in the lead?balkanian (talk) 11:10, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

I like your proposal. Here are my tweaks:

"At the end of World War II, nearly all Muslim Chams in Greece were exiled to Albania. They were accused by EDES as having collaborated with Axis occupation forces. Indeed, several hundred Chams had collaborated with the Axis Powers including the Balli Kombetar. However, approximately the same amount of Muslim Chams provided military support to the Greek resistance forces of ELAS while others were civilians uninvolved in the war. Since the war, no criminal of Cham origin was ever brought to trial."

I read from Mazower that the Chams collaborated with members of the Wermacht, which is why I rephrased one sentence to "including the Balli Kombetar". Correct me if I am wrong.

I think it would be best not to put in the current population of Cham Albanians in the lead. I feel that by adding a statistic (deemed "controversial" to POV-oriented users) will only contribute to fighting over whether the number is accurate or not (i.e. "Yes, it's 50,000! No, it's 35,000! Wrong, it's 300,789,444.99!). It is best that demographic statistics remain in the "Demographics" section of the overall article. However, if you feel that putting a statistic in the lead will enhance the quality of this article, then you have my support. Deucalionite (talk) 15:12, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

I made some changes in the paragraph please take a look. As for the population, you are right, it is better to leave it out of the lead for now.balkanian (talk) 15:33, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

The reference citation you requested already exists in the article. Mazower, After the War, p. 25. "From the autumn of 1943, these armed bands took part alongside the Wehrmacht in burning Greek villages."

Looks to me like the Chams directly collaborated with the Germans. Of course, my eyes are tired so if I am misreading anything, then please let me know. Deucalionite (talk) 15:42, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, some of them did collaborate. the problem is in the wording. "Indeed, several hundred Chams had collaborated with the Axis Powers including the Balli Kombetar". As far as I know Balli Kombetar was the only front which collaborated with Axis. SO "inculding" seems innapropriate, "as part of", seems to me the wright phrasing.balkanian (talk) 15:48, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

You are absolutely right. Good work. I'll implement the changes. Deucalionite (talk) 15:54, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Good news!

Just so you know balkanian, I actually have a source (Chams by Michael Tritou) that can help us fill in the gaps regarding the Paramythia massacre. Moreover, the book I have also contains some wonderful tidbits on the historical (as opposed to folkloric) origins of the Chams themselves. Unfortunately, the book is only in Greek so I am technically forced to provide a translation for every direct quote I extract.

In case you have doubts about the source's reliability, keep in mind that it is well-referenced, well-written, and is a published work by a professor from the University of Thessaloniki. Long story short, I think this particular work will be the key towards further improving this article.

Full citation:

Τρίτου, Μιχαήλ. Τσάμηδες: Επίμαχο Πρόβλημα Ελλάδος και Ορθόδοξου Εκκλησίας Αλβανίας. Εκδοτικός Οίκος Κυρομάνος: Θεσσαλονίκη, 2003.

By the way, where can we go to verify the reference citations from works by Miranda Vickers? I checked the links in the article and they are currently dead. Deucalionite (talk) 20:18, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

So far, I added two reference citations from Professor Michael Tritou's work:

1) "Γενικά, οι μουσουλμάνοι Τσάμηδες της Θεσπρωτίας προέρχονται απο ντόπιους χριστιανούς Έλληνες, οι οποίοι για διάφορους λόγους και σε διάφορα χρονικά διαστήματα εξισλαμίσθηκαν."

Translation - "Generally, the Muslim Chams of Thesprotia come from native Christian Greeks of which for different reasons and at different times converted to Islam."

2) "Είναι απόγονοι των Σπαχήδων, χριστιανών που αλλαξοπίστηκαν το 1653, για να μη χάσουν τα κτήματα τους, καθώς και Θεσπρωτών, οι οποίοι εξισλαμίσθηκαν το 1611 βίαια, ύστερα απο το κίνημα του Επισκόπου Τρίκκης Διονυσίου του Φιλοσόφου, του σκωπτικά ονομαζομένου απο τους Τούρκους «Σκυλοσόφου»."

Translation - "They [the Chams] are descendants of the Spachides, Christians that changed their religion in 1653 in order to avoid losing their homes, as well as Thesprotians of which were forcibly converted to Islam in 1611 after the insurrection of Dionysius the Philosopher, also named by the Turks as "Skylosofou."

Please review my edits and tell me what you think. Deucalionite (talk) 22:00, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Just per talk: Is he a reliable source? He seems too strange for me. He says that they become muslims, that does not mean that they become Albanians. He seems to me, like the ones who say that all orthodox population in Albania is Greek. (By the way I am orthodox and no one of my grandparents and great grandparents, did not know Greek). I mean, is a realiable source, somebody that does not make the differences between religion and ethnicity? Per argumentWhat he says is really unhistorical. Go to google books and try to find about the albanians of epirus. Search with "Gjin Bua Shpata", or better his english name "John Spata", or "Peter Losia" and you will see that this orthodox cheiftains were albanians, they were chieftains of Albanian population of Epirus. And we are talking about the 13th century, and not the 16th that Tritou says. So Albanians were there in that time. I will make a new historical section (thats why I added a subsection of Medivial Ages in History section two days before), which will contain the origins of them. After you search in google books, you will see that this population has come on Epirus in Medivial Ages when serbs pushed them in the south. This is the theory of the most historians. SugestionRemove Tritou till we see if he is reliable and not a Greek POV argument (otherwise I will add the Albanian argument that Epirus was Albanian since antiquity), and letstry to add the references of wellknown historians, about their origin.balkanian (talk) 10:21, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

By thw way I found the article only in "far-right" Ellinikes Grames [2]. This makes my "just per talk argument" more realistic.balkanian (talk) 10:27, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Just per talkThe fact that he is a proffesor does not make him reliable. We need historians, not theologians, (He is a theologian in University of Thesaloniki). But, as I said, we do not need in the article, neither GREEK POV, nor ALBANIAN POV. I could source you tens of Albanian real historians (real but POV pushing historians) that would make Greeks the worsts against chams, or Epirus as 99%Albanian, since the time of Phyrros. That is exactly what we do not need in this article. And I am totally certain that Tritou is one fo them. balkanian (talk) 10:50, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Like I said, Tritou is reliable for the sole purpose of filling the gaps in this article regarding the Paramythia massacre. I think he is a better alternative than the Paramythia website incorporated a while ago. Of course, I added the extra tidbits regarding the origins of the Chams thinking it would actually help.

While I was implementing my edits in the "Identity" section, it seemed to me that the folkloric origins somewhat coincided with the historical origins of the Chams. In no way was I trying to deny their sense of "Albanian-ness".

I agree that forms of both Greek POV and Albanian POV should not be incorporated into this article. However, I did not incorporate aspects of Tritou's work from articles shown on Greek populist (not far-right) websites. I actually have the book and unlike the Greek populist websites presenting Tritou's work, I have access to Tritou's references. If you want me to provide his reference citations, then I will do so upon your direct request.

I will not let this book destroy our collaborative efforts if you feel that it is 100% unreliable my friend. I enjoy working with you and have no intention of seeing our collective hard work go down the drain. If you feel that Tritou is 100% unreliable, then I will promptly remove all edits associated with him. Deucalionite (talk) 12:03, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Nice my friend, I am removing your edits in identity section. After we finish other sections, we will start with history section, and then I will bring you the exact references I mentioned above, about the origins of Chams, muslim and orthodoxes, which you can find in the way I told you above. About Paramythia, for sure he can be added in order to fill gasps. I think that such massacres did actually take place, but I still think that he is a unreliable source. I suggest that when we find another source about the massacres in Paramythia, to remove Tritou. About the ellinikes grames, I did not say that you didnt have the book. I said that his book is used solely by Ellinikes Grames in the web, and that makes him unreliable (just per talk, not wiki argument). Nevertheless, I enjoy our collaboration, but isn`t this a great one, when we do not agree with each other and try to find a consensus? I think this is the best collaboration:-)balkanian (talk) 12:21, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree. This is the best collaboration to have ever emerged in the history of this article. I cannot thank you enough for all of your help. By the way, how do we go about verifying the existing reference citations in the article? So far, we have to provide direct quotes from works by Vickers (The Cham Issue), Russel King (The New Albanian Migration), and others. The external links associated with papers written by Vickers are all dead. Deucalionite (talk) 12:52, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Well done, guys. This is a good article with lots of references and it is now neutral. Nicely done!--Michael X the White (talk) 13:15, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Are you kidding me? Just looking at the intro, for example, it is full of rambling,incoherent passage, extemporaneous passages, bad English, journalistic weasel-wording and such. Still needs major work. --Tsourkpk (talk) 13:48, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Tsourkpk, nice to be with us, please give your opinion and your suggestions for everything you find not acquarate in the article.
Deucalionite I think that we should finish with other sections, before we start with hisotry section, because the last is the most difficult. When we start rewriting the history section, we will find one by one all the references in it. What do you think?balkanian (talk) 14:17, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I'd love to, but this article needs a LOT of work, and I don't nearly have enough time these days. I'll let you guys work on it and we'll talk in a few months or so. --Tsourkpk (talk) 14:22, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Of course it does, thats why we are working on it. But give us the examples were is there anythink irrelevant, or bad quoted, or something like that statment.balkanian (talk) 14:34, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Glad you could join us Tsourkpk. I highly doubt that the article contains forms of "bad English" and "journalistic weasel-wording". Improvements have been made these past several days and I think that balkanian and I deserve some credit for having gotten the article this far. I agree that the article needs more work. That is why I encourage you and anyone else to provide some constructive input.

As for the reference citations, I don't have a problem working on them once we start rewriting the history section balkanian. Deucalionite (talk) 20:13, 14 September 2008 (UTC) Deucalionite (talk) 20:13, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

And I can help providing neutral sources, as I have done with "balkanian" so far.Just ask--Michael X the White (talk) 20:18, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Ok, guys. What do you think about the article in general, without the history section. Does it need any further information, or is any information doubious? In order to finish the rest and to start with the history section.balkanian (talk) 20:35, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I suggest that in the "current issues" section to add only the information about what chams are asking today from the greek and albanian government and their responses. All other info would be more relevant in history section. What do you think?balkanian (talk) 20:37, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

The article so far looks good. Is Babiniotis the only etymologist who attests to the Pelasgian or Thraco-Illyrian origins of the name "Chameria"? Looking at the helpful reference citations provided by balkanian, it seems to me that Babiniotis is a bit uncertain about the exact etymology of the word.

By no means am I bringing this up to question Babiniotis's credentials. I am simply trying to see if there is a consensus among etymologists regarding the origins of the term "Chameria". Also, I want to make sure that the "Identity" section does not become a future hotbed for POV-oriented users making statements (i.e. "Chams were Pelasgians", "Chams were Thraco-Illyrians", etc.) based on the etymological data compiled so far.

As for the "Current issues" section, I believe that it should focus on developments dating as far back as the 1990s (since we are technically living in the "post-Cold War" era right now). Anything before this decade should be incorporated into the "History" section. Deucalionite (talk) 23:07, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Hey balkanian, do you happen to have the page numbers for the reference citations you provided from Babiniotis? Also, could you provide any publication data (i.e. where the book was published, who published it, year of publication)? I would greatly appreciate it my friend. Deucalionite (talk) 23:14, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I am asking Michael X the White, because he gave me the data.balkanian (talk) 11:26, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

I don`t know if there is a consensus between linguists. Actually, I just asked wikipedians for Babiniotis, as one of the best linguists in the region. But, lets try to find any other source. As about the identity section, I do not think that there will be a problem, because we will put in history section the origins of Chams, so identity will be only about the names etymology.balkanian (talk) 11:42, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Babiniotis is uncertain about the etymology, not about the root, I think.balkanian (talk) 11:43, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, I was delayed...I am sorry. Publication: Lexicology Centre P.Year: 2002 pg:761--Michael X the White (talk) 14:56, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Not a problem. Thank you very much for your help. Deucalionite (talk) 22:11, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Demographics-Infobox

I think it is fine to write "according to other sources, chams are 40000". However, it is not the same to include that in the infobox, because it ignores other sources (the Greek government). Could the one that made the infobox clarify this, or find other sources to support the 40000? And another thing: where do 70000 and 80000 come for the U.S and Turkey?--Michael X the White (talk) 19:29, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Arvanites of Epirus

1. Kollias has not been used as a reliable source in Arvanites so it should not be treated as such here.
2. Noone says that they selfidentify as greeks.
3. Greek is an ethnicity, orthodox is a religion. Cham are Albanians by definition.
Until you find sources, leave it this way.Balkanian`s word (talk) 11:20, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the above, but I can't see how Orthodox Chams=Arvanites of Epirus. Except that greek helsinki states that Arvanites of Epirus and Western Macedonia feel Albanians (the sentence does not mention the term Chams about the entire region). There is also a geographical confusion, Chamera/Tsiamouria is a part of Epirus periphery (less than 30%, and Thesprotia alone consist of 12%-14% of Epirus area) not the same area with different name. In that way Orthodox Chams are the Arvanites of Chameria/Tsiamouria, seems logical. The Arvanites of the rest of Epirus according to helsinki feel Albanian but beeing Cham isn't geographically appropriate (there are no sources linking to that, imagine Napoleon Zervas beeing counted as Cham, because he was from Arta and of possible Arvanite origin).

I see that even Vickers is confused about the geographical definition of Chameria/Tsiamoura, in one time mentions that it is Thesprotia (she mentions also something about the ... Illyrian tribe of Thesprotians) but after some pages the term incorporates Epirus periphery.Alexikoua (talk) 22:23, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

The euromosaic project, of the European Union, states that Orthodox Cham Albanians are called Arvanites of Epirus, I have added that reference. This includes even some arvanitic/cham villages in Janina, which although are not in the region of Chameria, are inhabited by Chams. (I`ll try to find references for this) and does not include some four-five villages in Konitsa, which are Lab Albanians. I see your point, but my point is that: Orthodox Cham Albanians are called Arvanites of Epirus, but not everyone that is called Arvanites of Epirus is an Orthodox Cham Albanian. This does not mean that Orthodox Cham Albanians are not called Arvanites of Epirus.Balkanian`s word (talk) 07:22, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

About what Vickers believes what's Chameria, on pg. 1 the 2002 paper states:

The Chams are the ethnic Albanian, and predominantly Muslim, population from the area of north western Greece known to Greeks as Threspotia and to Albanians as Chameria. The region, which is centred around the Tsamis river, extends from Butrint and the mouth of the Acheron River to Lake Prespa in the north, eastward to the Pindus mountains and south as far as Preveza and the Gulf of Arta.

Lake Prespa, is in fact out of Epirus. It's sure that there is a geographical confusion, so we have Thesprotia=Chameria=from Ionian coast to Prespa. On page 2 there is a map with the label 'Chameria' n, nw of Ioannina (on the Ioannina-Kakavia road, so in Ioannina prefecture).

With such confusions there is enough room for original research. If there are 40.000 orthodox albanians on thesprotia ('live in the Threspotia region.' pg. 11) there are 40.000 out of a population of 44.000, if we count as Thesprotia what Vickers defines as Thesprotia (=Chameria) the total population has to include Ioannina, Kastoria and Florina (to lake Prepsa).Alexikoua (talk) 12:59, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Added! You`re right!Balkanian`s word (talk) 13:58, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Arvanites of Epirus

1. Kollias has not been used as a reliable source in Arvanites so it should not be treated as such here.
2. Noone says that they selfidentify as greeks.
3. Greek is an ethnicity, orthodox is a religion. Cham are Albanians by definition.
Until you find sources, leave it this way.Balkanian`s word (talk) 11:20, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Map needs references

The map of Chameria [[3]] in this article extends too far south. Also, I am not aware of any official, historic, or other maps showing Chameria as a region - the only mentions in old maps of the region are as Epirus or Albania or Romelia or Illyria (I am not denying that Chameria occupies/ed a geographic region). So please provide more reliable sources to keep this map in the article. Politis (talk) 16:34, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Its sourced by Vickers, and many others. There have been a discussion and a consensus about that in Talk:Chameria#Map.Balkanian`s word (talk) 17:07, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. Just out of curiosity, are there any older maps that mention Chameria?Politis (talk) 10:09, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

I don`t know, I haven`t searched on it, but the maps I`ve seen till now, does not include, the subdivisions of Epirus, but just Epirus. Even if there is, it would be after the 18th century, cause till then the region, was called Vagenetia.Balkanian`s word (talk) 10:48, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

It seems obvious that under the Byzantines and Ottomans these names and their geographical location were almost aribtrary (I am not denying the individuality of the Chams). Probably because the important thing was the administrative district. It is only in the later part of the 19th century that names and regions became increasingly imprtant. For instance, the region of Macedonia only started being 'imposed' as a clearly defined region after the fall of Yugoslavia. In this respect, Wikipedia has promoted the identity of a regional Macedonia even though historically this perception was restricted as a concept within the, then, Yugoslav Socialist Republic of Macedonia. Of course, there is no geographic unity defining regional Macedonia but in the heads of those who support a greater Macedonia. Politis (talk) 11:05, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

The area was called 'Risadie' or something like that on Ottoman times Greek: Ρισαδιέ. The name Vagenetia was first mentioned at 650 A.D., and was the name of the local bishopry, after the Slavic invasion (the name might derive from the Slavic tribe of Vainouitai).

There is a map mentioning the Albanian administration (or semi-administration) of Chameria/Tsiamouria (about WWII period) [[4]].

I see, but it doesn`t include Preveza, and per sources, Preveza is part of Chameria. It should be just an administrative region, or something like his. Do you know, what means the "teruleti gyarapodas" mentioned in the map?Balkanian`s word (talk) 11:23, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Something like "territorial expansion", according to a Hungarian online dictionary. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:36, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

This should be the case even here. The definition of Chameria depends on sources. But this discription seems the best, because it is used even by the Albanian author Sami Frasheri in 1889, see here, where he says that the sanjak of Preveza is the southern half of Chameria, and although describes the total region, including Janina, he describes as Chameria, only the regions, which are mentioned by Vickers.Balkanian`s word (talk) 11:20, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Should be RomanianAlexikoua (talk) 11:35, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Assessment

Balkanian requested that I assess this article and its overall expansion.

1) The Euromosaic Study that is associated with the phrase "Arvanites of Epirus" is decent. However, the source itself lacks reliable references. So far, my reading of the French excerpt doesn't show that the Chams specifically self-identify as "Arvanites of Epirus". If anything, the Euromosaic Study merely states that "Arvanites" inhabited the region known as Chameria. Of course, an accurate translation of the excerpt would be very helpful since many readers, including myself, are not gifted with the ability to read perfect French.

2) The organization of the history section seems fine. However, I would remove the following: "But, according to historians, earlier Albanian settlements were in the region before this migration." This sentence sounds a bit OR-ish given the fact that there is neither a page number nor an excerpt from John Fine's book that substantiates it. It would be best to provide more sources in order to verify that Albanian migrations actually occurred before the 12th century.

3) Reference citations are needed in the sections entitled "Medieval Albanian states" and "Ottoman rule and Pashalik of Janina".

4) Reference citations that derive their information from the International Center for Minority Studies and Intercultural Relations should be removed. Unfortunately, the source entitled "Urgent Anthropology" contains no bibliography, no reliable citations, and no discussion of scientific/academic methodologies. If anything, IMIR is an explicitly ideological organization that does not coincide with Wikipedia policies let alone with serious academic standards.

5) Reference citations that derive their information from the Albanian American Civic League should be removed. The article entitled "The Albanian National Question (Chameria)" by Shirley Cloyes DioGuardi lacks reliable citations and has no bibliography necessary for fact-checking. As far as WP:RS is concerned, this article is problematic.

6) The section entitled "Arvanites of Epirus" must either be changed or removed given the fact that the Vickers excerpt does not explicitly associate the phrase with the Chams. There are "Orthodox Chams", but nowhere do I find Chams declaring themselves as "Arvanites of Epirus".

This review may be deemed crude and blunt to some users. However, if there is any hope for this article to achieve GA status, then it must undergo multiple tempering processes. By far, the article seems to be progressing well even though it still needs a lot of work. If there any other problems I find, I'll be more than happy to discuss them here. Deucalionite (talk) 19:28, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

I found some more problems while fixing the article.

7) The Greek Helsinki Monitor, like the IMIR, is an ideological organization. Whatever information is extracted from this particular group should be removed since their involvement in lobbies and political circles is evident. Their ability to over-accentuate (or perhaps even invent) minority issues with or without the presence of academic scruples is not very constructive.

8) Reference citations that derive their information from the Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium need page numbers (excerpts are optional).

9) Reference citations that derive their information from www.albanianhistory.net should be removed. If we need information from Robert Elsie, then we can consult his published works and not websites that have the potential to misinterpret them.

Again, I'll report any other problems I find. Deucalionite (talk) 20:09, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

More problems.

10) The articles from the Cameria Institute have no bibliography, zero reliable sources, and are too disorganized for any reader to extract any relevant data. They should be removed.

11) The music section of the article looks okay but needs better sources than Tole's website. I am not saying that Mr. Tole is unaware of Cham musical styles or that he is not a professional in his field. It's that he has no published literary works that explain the evolution and dynamics of Cham music.

Phew! Overhauling an entire article is a lot of work. Deucalionite (talk) 20:41, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

One more problem.

12) There is no source from Doris Stockman (or from a reliable source) to verify his statements regarding Cham music.

The overhaul continues. Deucalionite (talk) 20:43, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

I think I'm done for now. Time for a much deserved wikibreak. But don't worry, "I'll be back". Deucalionite (talk) 21:03, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Answers. Some of your twiks are right, some are wrong. Let take them one by one:
1. Euromosaic, clearly states "Arvanites of Chameria in EPirus", and than states "the dialect of the orthodox chams", so there is no reason for not using it. I think that euromosaic project, financed by EU, is a RS, because it is financed and used, and agreed by EU.
2. Ok remove it, I`ll cite the whole part, in order to rewrite it.
3.They are cited with "History of Albanian People. Albanian Academy of Science. ISBN 9992716231".
4.Ok, I did not add it, and I do not agree with they way it is writen "our estimate", without sayig how this estimate was made.
5.This article, is only citing the fact, that Cham Albanians have created organisations in US, but if we do not agree on this citation, there are the online pages of these cham organisations, that we can add as reference, in order to show, that they exist.
6. and 7. This paragraph is a result of "euromosaic study", also GHM, citing Banfi, says that they self-identify as "shqiptar" and that "they form part of the modern albanian nation. If, GHM is not RS, then we should find what Banfi says exactly, and cite him directly.
8. My foult, trying to find it. I just copied text and references from the main pages of that sections
9.You`re right, I`ll try to cite Elsie directly.
10.The articles from Chameria Institute are essays prepeared from Albanian academics, in a symposium. They are not published, but they are added in the internet pages of the institute. This academics, are well-known scientists, so they are RS. You can try to find about their names in google books, and google scholar. So, they should not be removed. Also, we are speaking about the language, music, and culture in general, so there is not any case of POV, or any case of non RS.
11. Tole is an well-known ethnologist and has published the "dicitionary of albanian folk music", which is considered as the main work, for albanian folk tradition. This dictionary is full of references, and thus, it is a RS. I will try to find its ISBN, I added the online version of the dictionary, which is found in Tole`s website, in order to be searchable and easiear to find.
12.Tole cites Stockman, in another book of him.Balkanian`s word (talk) 08:04, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your honest response Balkanian (I was expecting a response from you yesterday and thought you were on vacation/wikibreak or something). As you well know, Future Perfect also made some fine contributions to the article and as far as I know deserves a kiss on the cheek from a jelim (Ha!).

By far, you did a fine job expanding the article. Bravo. I am also happy that you noticed some problems with my tweaks some of which I already rectified.

1) The Euromosaic Study was ultimately kept even though its coming from the EU means nothing if there are no reliable citations for fact-checking.

2) There should be some secondary reliable sources that acknowledge the existence of Cham organizations in the US. If nothing pops up, however, then we can use the websites and reference them using MLA style.

3) We should avoid the Greek Helsinki Monitor for the sake of WP:RS and WP:NPOV. It's not their political bias that I'm worried about, but rather their ability to potentially generate inaccurate biases utilizing academic scholarship as a guise. Case in point, the article that was cited from the GHM website had parenthetical citations from scholars such as Trudgill and Banfi. However, the article had zero excerpts and zero bibliographical content necessary for academic scrutiny. If we need to cite Banfi, or any other scholar, then we should get our information "straight from the horse's mouth".

4) I agree that before we decide to reincorporate the symposium articles from the Cameria Institute, we should check for reliable secondary sources. If we look hard enough, I'm sure we'll find something about Cham music and culture from authors such as Robert Elsie.

5) If Tole is a reliable source on Albanian folk traditions/music, then we should cite him according to his published works and not just his website. Moreover, we should check for other experts in his field of study (to see if there is an academic consensus on Cham culture, which I am sure there is).

As far as I can tell, everything else seems fine. Deucalionite (talk) 16:24, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

I kissed in the cheek Fut, and I will kiss you too, after this job :D.
::On Vasil Tole, I am citing his published books, which are also in his website. In the end of his website you`ll find "Enciklopedia e muzikës popullore shqiptare", where is the online version of his published book.
::I agree about GHM. Can you find Banfi and Trudgill?Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:08, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. I can't believe I actually wrote "Vole" instead of "Tole" during our discussions (I made corrections so that other users don't get confused). Anyway, we'll keep his works only this time we'll include full citations with translations since most of us are not blessed with the ability to read and understand Albanian. I also think we should include some information from other authors just to make sure that Tole isn't alone in his expert studies on Albanian folk traditions/music. As for Trudgill and Banfi, I'll see if I can find anything. Deucalionite (talk) 19:39, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

I made some tweaks to the reference citations you added. Please have a look at them and tell me what you think. You'll notice that I removed most of the translated quotes you provided since Future doesn't like anything that may violate copyright laws. Deucalionite (talk) 21:50, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Tell me if these citations from Tole are written correctly:

Dojaka, Abaz. "Cham Dance: History Studies", 1966. (Is this a journal or a book? Where was it published? Does Tole provide a page number in his citation of this source?)

Beniamin, Kruta. Two voice polyphony of Southern Albania. Tiranë, 1991. (Does Tole provide a page number in his citation of this book?)

I'm glad to know that Tole isn't alone in his research. Deucalionite (talk) 21:56, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

I translated them. History studies is a journal, published by the Albanian Academy of Sciences. "Dojaka. Abaz, “Dasma çame”, “Studime Historike”, 1966, nr. 2", its journal n.2 of 1966. On Kruta, he has not given a page for the book "Beniamin Kruta, “Polifonia dy zërëshe e Shqipërisë së Jugut”, Tiranë 1991".Balkanian`s word (talk) 11:41, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Buddy, you're a life saver. I updated the reference citations. Deucalionite (talk) 20:23, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Is it a RS?

There is a dispute about a reference: International Center for Minority Studies and Intercultural Relations.

User:Deucalionite opposes saying that: "Reference citations that derive their information from the International Center for Minority Studies and Intercultural Relations should be removed. Unfortunately, the source entitled "Urgent Anthropology" contains no bibliography, no reliable citations, and no discussion of scientific/academic methodologies. If anything, IMIR is an explicitly ideological organization that does not coincide with Wikipedia policies let alone with serious academic standards."

I oppose saying that: "I do not agree with they way it is writen "our estimate", without sayig how this estimate was made."

User:Alexikoua agrees saying that:"I believe that it is a reliable source, worth the try to mention".

Let`s find a solution is it a RS or not...Balkanian`s word (talk) 10:55, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I mean, we have already a source from Vickers. But Vickers don't give a citation about the number (suppose it's taken from Cham organizations). On the other hand Vickers disagrees clearly at least with 5 historical views according to wiki articles (mentioned above). So, why imir should be less trustworthy than Vickers on that?

Imir gives on the first pages the full schedule on how the research was conducted and in what basis.

Moreover, imagine, about Northern Epirus, taking into account only the numbers that N. Epirote organizations give.Alexikoua (talk) 15:57, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I don`t want to be in this discussion, so I will not add my opinions. According to User:Deucalionite, who is blocked and cannot be part in this discussion: "Vickers is more reliable than the IMIR website because the former is a secondary source that at least contains a bibliography necessary for fact-checking. Of course, if Alexikoua manages to find evidence of how the IMIR establishes its demographic estimates (i.e. academic/scientific methodologies), then he should provide any and all pertinent links on the discussion page.".Balkanian`s word (talk) 16:34, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Map

I agree with you about the map. Actually I have created them, after the references I managed to get about the extent of the despotates and the principalities. If you have any other reference, then feel free to change the map, according to them. I am putting the map again in the page, saying that it is the extent, at 1390. Do you agree?Balkanian`s word (talk) 16:36, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

ok, 1390. However there where major fluctuations on borders that period, I' ll provide some sources and make adjustments. The sentence that the D. of Epirus was limitied on east Epirus is right about the 1358-1367 period, before Thomas Prelub. became despot. Alexikoua (talk) 17:19, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

The sources i've got are from these books:

• Migrations and Invasions in Greece and Adjacent Areas. Nicholas Geoffrey Lemprière Hammond. 1976. ISBN 0815550472
• Cronaca dei Tocco di Cefalonia, di Anonimo. Giuseppe Schirò.
• Byzantine and Modern Greek Studies. IngentaConnect. University of Birmingham. Centre for Byzantine, Ottoman, and Modern Greek Studies

and up to this we have (about political control):

• Butrindo: Venice (1386-)
• Sagiada: Angevin (-1387), Ioannina (1387-1399), Zenebishi (1399-1402), Venice (1402-1458), Turks (1458-)
• Paramythia: Spatha (1358-1367), Ioannina (1367-), (at 1370s revolt from some governor there, but again to Ioannina), during Tocco rule (1416-1430s) city was governed by his son named 'Torno'.
• Vagenetia (Vagenetia is Margariti-except than the region's name): Spatha (1358-1382), Ioannina (1382-) (was the region that tribe of Zeneveshi settled)
• Arahovitsa(west of Ioannina):Spatha (-1382), Ioannina (1382-)
• Velas(north of Ioannina): Albanian clans (-1382), Ioannina (1382-)
• Dropull: Albanian clans (1358-1382), Ioannina (1382-84), Shahin Pasha (?) (1384), Zenebishi (1384-1419)
• Arta&Rogoi (west of Arta): (1358-1416).
• Vonitsa: Angevin (-ca1390), Tocco (ca1390-)
• Parga: Italians-Normans (?) (-1400), Vogoi-a serb-bulgar-albanian-vlach (1400) Venice (1401-)
• Lepanto:Arta (-1407), Venice (1407-)

Some sources are contradicting its other, but the picture seems to be the above. What's most important is that Albanian chieftains never had control of the Epirotic coast, because the trade between Ioannina with the Italian was always undisturbed. The Italian despots of Ioannina had a special relation with their Venezian compatriots, even if there was some kind of migration in Vagenetia political control kept the ports to Italian hands.Alexikoua (talk) 22:32, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Proposals

Two proposals for people intrested in this page.

1. As far as the Cham Issue, of the WWII, and the adjuctant periods (1935-1950) are dobious, and not clear, Greek and Albanian government and authors may contain about this period a certain national POV. Thus, I propose a consnesus on the following issue:

• Albanian and Greek authors, who have written about the period that contains Cham Issue, not to be used as references
• Albanian and Greek authors, to be used as references only if they speak about certain figures collected on written sources that fulfills WP:RS
• Albanian and Greek authors, to be used as references only if they explicitly cite other foreign authors that fulfills WP:RS

I think that this is the only solution in order to mantian the Cham Albanians page and other pages containing the Cham Issue balanced, reliable and NPOV.

2. Things to be done:

• Name section may be added, knowing that Chams are describe by a number of names by Greeks and others.
• Presence of Albanians should be expended.
• Albanian uprisings should be added after the Presence of Albanians.
• Medieval states should be rewritten.
• Ottoman rule section should be expanded.
• Pashalik of Janina section should be rewritten in order to have clear conections with Cham Albanians.
• Cham Albanians and the Greek War of Independence section should be created.
• Cham Albanians and the National Renaissance of Albania section should be created.
• Metaxa`s regime should be expanded.
• World War II section should have more RS sources and more information.
• Expulsion section should be created.
• Muslim Chams in Albania should be rewritten with additional information.
• Muslim Chams in the Turkey section should be created.
• Media section may be added on Culture
• Cuisine section may be added on Culture
• Music section should be expanded.
• Folklore section should be expanded.
• Famous individuals should be expanded.
• Further reading should be created with all the online articles and studies.
• External links should be updated with the main sites containing material for Cham Albanians.
• Unreferenced parts should be filled.
• Photos should be added.
• Grammar check should be done.

And than our work is over.Balkanian`s word (talk) 21:20, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Something very interesting and essential that is nowhere mentioned is about

• the religion in history section
• the forced islamizations of the 17th century
• the failed revolution in 1611 of Dionysius the Philosopher, bishop of Paramythia.
• The Spahis (mounted Ottoman troops) that the region provided to the Ottoman army.--Alexikoua (talk) 06:15, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Ottoman rule section should contain Pashalik of Janina, they should not be seperate. I do not see why having a section about Chams and the Greek Revolution, since they had no notable contribution in it. Careful about the external links, sites like "give Chameria back were it belongs" should be avoided. We can see about the rest.--Michael X the White (talk) 08:52, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

sources

Agree with the third and first, but the second point varies and is always confusing on weather something could be rs or not. A good approach should be to count first the no Albanian-Greeks, provided that they dont give repeatetly wrong proven data (according to wiki articles), like Vickers in her 2002, 2007 papers (as per disc. page in Cham Albanians).

Considered that not only some Albanian and Greek are no-rs, there are many Turks (and maybe other) that have a non-rs approach on the topics (this is logical according the Turks).

There is still unexplained why IMIR is excluded as a sources (the organization states clear about the scientific methods that are used)Alexikoua (talk) 06:36, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

• Agree, there should be RS on 1930-1950 period. IMIR has lack of RS references. So, it should not be there, according to Deucialionite.Balkanian`s word (talk) 07:46, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Sameis

What else does Babiniotis say? I see no reason why the article should not elaborate if there is more information. For example the sound-changes involved are interesting. I know that Doric Greek and North-West Greek (?) had a theta/s sound variation: salassa instead of thalassa, etc. which makes me think of a possible Sameis/Thameis variation. In Romanian there is cimbru (pronounced cheembroo), which in ancient Greek is thymbra (summer savory). What information do we have about:

• Classical s to Albanian "ch" sound-change
• Medieval/Modern Greek change of s to an Albanian ch
• Classical/Medieval/Modern Greek theta sound-change to Albanian "ch"

--A from L.A. (talk) 17:23, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

On chams: Cham (o) (Chamides) resident of Chameria, area of Thesprotia; (more precisely) the muslim albanophone (Turkalbanian) of Chameria, who was excepted of the population exchange with Turkey. [ETYM.uncertain route, perhaps <ancient Thyamis, river running through the area or <Sameis, ancient Thracoillyrian tribe]-

On Thyamis: Thyamis (o) [Thyamidos] Kalamas river (see) [ETYM.< anc., pelasg. route , unknown etym, parall. of Thy-amos (mount near lake Ambracia)Balkanian`s word (talk) 17:32, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

OK, so he doesn't elaborate. I guess my elaboration on this talk page will do for now till my sources are found. I don't have access to Babiniotis' work, and because they are very different points: (1)possible Sameis derivation 2) Thyamis coming a Pelasgian source: it is much better to have two notes placed, even though the reference is the same. People always come by and make claims about Thraco-Illyrians and etymologies, so it's good to have it clearly referenced. A from L.A. (talk) 17:38, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

What do you propose? How do you think the sentences should look like?Balkanian`s word (talk) 17:41, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

The sentences look okay now, with two notes placed, one for each point. As soon as I find more information from good sources, I want to elaborate on the sound-changes involved, with other Albanian examples of Greek theta changing to Albanian "ch", or Classical "s" being found as an Albanian "ch". A from L.A. (talk) 17:45, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Ok, but be carefull, because it could be seen as a OR, if you don`t find explict info about that.Balkanian`s word (talk) 17:51, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

By the way, I do not yet have a lot of knowledge of Greek, ancient, modern etc.; Sameis to a novice like me looks like an ancient Greek plural (polis, plural poleis etc.). So is Sameis a plural of *Samis, which itself shows a typical ancient Greek suffix -is? A from L.A. (talk) 19:18, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I think it means nothing. Thecians and Illyrians have no written sources and every tribe and word of them, is known only by Greek authors, who always added this suffix.Balkanian`s word (talk) 19:23, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I was not suggesting the suffix indicates any Greekness. I'm just asking whether the ancient Greek Sameis was a plural of ancient Greek Samis. Sameis and Samis have the Greek suffixes according to the Greek language, yes. I don't recall whether these same suffixes having the same function are attested in Thracian or Illyrian. I would like to know the Classical source of Sameis. I did not find it in a Perseus Digital Library search yet. A from L.A. (talk) 19:29, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually I have no idea about it.Balkanian`s word (talk) 17:44, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

On the subject of *Samis, there is a Greek surname Tsamis (Τσάμης), and the hydronym Thyamis itself is very close to the form *Samis, when one knows about the s/th variation (*Samis/Thyamis). I'll share more research with you other editors, and hopefully I will find information usable in Wiki. A from L.A. (talk) 13:31, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

For sure surnames like Tsamis are the same as Çami, which means that their origin is cham albanians. As for, Sameis-Thyamis, I have no reference.Balkanian`s word (talk) 13:34, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Ah yes, using Google I found that there is an Albanian surname, Çami. Yes that should be the source of Tsamis. Looks sure enough that I will add that to the Tsamis stub-article without a reference, but I will place a template showing that a reference is needed. A from L.A. (talk) 13:47, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Mazower

We have this sentence: Albanian Cham units also played an active part in the Holocaust in Greece, including the round-up and expulsion to Auschwitz and Birkenau of the 2,000 strong Romaniotes Greek-Jewish community of Ioannina in April 1944., referenced with Mazower, Mark. Inside Hitler's Greece: The Experience of Occupation, 1941-44. Yale University Press, 1993, ISBN 0300089236.

Actually, Balli Kombetar did not discriminate any jew in Albania. This reference was not checked during ouer #Citations review So, I really doubt that Mazower is well-cited. Whoever has acces in this book, should provide the exact citation from Mazower.Balkanian`s word (talk) 17:37, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Straight up, are you saying I'm lying? By the way, I noticed that you do not provide in-line citations for any of the works you quote. Thus, we have no way of telling if you are quoting them correctly. As far as I know, you could just be making everything up to make the Chams seem as victims of those evil Greeks (the theme of this article). --Athenean (talk) 17:54, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Just per talk Cham Albanians were victims of EDES. Some Greeks were victims of XILIA. Far away from your (nationalist?) mentallity.Balkanian`s word (talk) 17:57, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Challenge me! Future removed all citations, but they were there. I said the reasons why I doubt. Do not forget that you brought a second sentence that chams "left with germans" citing mazower and vickers, which was not true.Balkanian`s word (talk) 17:56, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

The way this article is written, it makes it seem like Chams are victims of Greeks in general, not just EDES. The whole history section is a one-sided rant about persecution and victimization at the hands of successive Greek governments. Talk about nationalist mentality. --Athenean (talk) 18:07, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

This article contains WP:RS. Government=/=people, thats the main idea of non-nationalism. Find references that are contrary to the ones, I and others have brought, and you are welcomed to add them. Can you find me the inline citation of Mazower, since the other book he has written has no at all such a thing as jew persecution.Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:10, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

It may contain WP:RS, but as no in-line citations are provided, we have no way determining if you are quoting them correctly. Furthermore, it is possible to use on reliable sources but make an article totally one-sided by cherry-picking only those sources that back your POV while leaving out those that don't. This article is so totally one-sided that it seems to me this is the case here. --Athenean (talk) 18:15, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Talking about nothing. Challenge me! Give me the inline citation, and I will give you every inline citations you`ll need.Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:43, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Ooooh, a challenge! How macho. How about you give in-line citations for all your refs, the way it's supposed to be done in the first place. --Athenean (talk) 20:20, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

here you are Give me now the Mazower citation!Balkanian`s word (talk) 21:02, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Wait a sec, these aren't in even the article. That's just an old diff performed on an old version of the article. You have changed the crap out of it since that edit by FP. Incidentally, I noticed one of your sources states (in French), that "a majority of Chams collaborated with the Axis forces". This would seem to give the lie to your strenuous assertions about "only a few hundred Chams" collaborating. This raises serious issues about your honesty. I'm going to go through this article VERY carefully over the next few days, and whenever I see you misquoting a source, i will remove it. --Athenean (talk) 21:07, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Get serious: Euromosaic study can be a reliable source about the Current situation as far as it is discussing about current situation. It cannot be considered reliable source about history because it does not talk about history, and of course Mazower is reliable source about history, because his books are about history. In your way of thinking, I should use Babiniotis as a reference about "Turkalbanians". Anyone on his field!Balkanian`s word (talk) 21:24, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

About Mazover and the Holocaust participation of some Chams. It is really ridiculous to ask about exact citation provided that we trust with blind eyes Vickers, who makes a number of clear anti-wiki approaches (see above). Mazover didn't support that Thesprotians were Illyrians or that the Greek Government is acting like Mafia (Vicker's thoughts). As for the holocaust, one primary source are the documents of the 'ss commander' in the region. There is also a letter from him to M. Dino telling him how thankful he is, about the help provided.

What's Vicker's sources about the number of Chams?

As wiki says 'calm down' first, everything can find a solution. Go outdoors and enjoy yourselves its Sat. night.(Vicker's says something about Greek-Albanian underground meetings in taverns ;))--Alexikoua (talk) 21:51, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

The problem is that we`re not in the same town:-). The second problem is that on this book Mazower says nothing about such thing. If Chams played a role in holocaust, I suppose that he would use it. The third problem is that Balli Kombetar was not anti-semit, on the other hand they protected jews (a number of references about that). All these make me suspect that Mazower has not written it. I am not saying that Mazower has written something wrong, I am suspecting that he has not said it. If he has written that "chams have massacred jews" ofccourse it has a place in the article, much more than one sentence. If not, it should be deleted. Am I asking too much?Balkanian`s word (talk) 21:58, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Balkanian`s fraud

Balkanian strenuously maintains that "only a few hundred Chams" collaborated with the Axis forces, yet one of his own sources completely gives the lie to that: [5]. Section 1.2, paragraph B, sentence 5. For those of you that don't speak French, it says "a majority of them having collaborated with the occupation forces". Ouch! This raises serious doubts about how this user uses sources. Not only does he cherry-pick, but even those sources he uses are completely twisted and falsified. Incredible. This article needs major fact-checking. --Athenean (talk) 21:31, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Euromosaic study can be a reliable source about the Current situation as far as it is discussing about current situation. It cannot be considered reliable source about history because it does not talk about history, and of course Mazower is reliable source about history, because his books are about history. In your way of thinking, I should use Babiniotis as a reference about "Turkalbanians". Everyone on his field!Balkanian`s word (talk) 21:46, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

But how do we know that that is what Mazower actually says, since you don't provide the actual in-line citation? As far as we know, you could be making everything up (which I wouldn't put past you). I provide a full in-line citation to the Euromosaic source. You do not for the Mazower source. Until you do so, we go with Euromosaic. --Athenean (talk) 22:57, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Information about population exchange (Chams-Northern Epirotes)

I wonder how a fact can be totally reversed. I don't know If the cited source has a sense of reality, but it lacks citations for sure. IMIR says that this plan was made up by Zog's Government. There is a specific record in the Greek Government in 1930 that refuses such kind of action, because the numbers are not equal.

There is a comfusion on what is rs or not. I see a very one sided approach.

According to a Turkish author, all Turks from Epirus that transfered to Turkey are Chams. Nice try, maybe we have to choose a bit more carefully our sourcesAlexikoua (talk) 00:47, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Thats why there is no mention of numbers of CHams that left to Turkey. On the other issue, IMIR has no source at all, while Fabbe has explicitly sourceds greek official documents.Balkanian`s word (talk) 13:55, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Until these original documents are cited, there is not that kind of idiotic arguement (and it is if you claim that you want to exchange a minority of greater number in another country with another that's ca. 20.000 according to Mazover).

I ask for third time, where is Vicker's source of the 440.000 number? I'm sure you know balk.Alexikoua (talk) 14:29, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Mazower says that there were 20 thousand in 1944, read him carefully. Vickers says that there are 440 000 today, in ALbania (the mazowers ones) in Greece, USA and Turkey.Balkanian`s word (talk) 14:35, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

I know about the 20.000. I speak about now. From whom Vickers knows that they are 440 worldwide? that's my clear answer. because there r no citations on the 02 07 papers.Alexikoua (talk) 14:49, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Have you read Vickers?

The citation number one, has a full number of CHam Albanians in ALbania, for 1991, which is 204,000 and she has estimated that they were in 2007, 250,000. "Cham population settlement in the Republic of Albania according to the 1991

registration of Chams by the Chameria Political Association. Place Persons Shkoder 1,150 Kruje-Lac-Fushekruje 720 Lezhe 35 Tirana (District) 29,700 Durres-Shijak-Sukth 35,000 Kavaje-Golem-Gose-Rrogozhine 10,500 Peqin 1,400 Elbasan-Cerrik 12,650 Lushnje-Zhame-Dushk 8,300 Berat-Kucove 6,900 Fier-Patos-Rreth 39,800 Vlore (District) 42,300 Sarande (District) 12,100 Delvine (District) 2,900 Total 204,255"

For Turkey and USA she makes an estimation from the number of Albanians that were forced to leave for Turkey, and has as reference "Michalopoulos, D, 'The Moslems of Chamouria and the Exchange of Populations

Between Greece and Turkey', Balkan Studies, Vol 27, No 2, 1986, pp305-6."

For Greece, she makes an estimation, refering to "Odysseus, Turkey in Europe, London, 1900, p401." SO her estimations are fully referenced and she explains the number she gives. On the other hand IMIR says nothing about them.Balkanian`s word (talk) 20:51, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Here is the link of IMIR [[6]] lets read:

Two years later (in 1930) the Albanian king Ahmed Zogu offered the Greek government to make a population transfer by sending the Зams to Albania in the place of the Greek ethnic minority there. The king pursued a policy of clearing the Greeks out of Albania. His proposal was not accepted by the Greek side because of the lack of reciprocity - 10 to 20 thousand Зams in exchange for 100 thousand Greeks.

As per talk I'll delete the contradicting claim until there are primary sources about Greek records in hand to prove that the above is wrong.

As for the number of today's Chams, it's just an claim by Cham organizations, but imagine as for Greeks in Albania taking into account only claims of N. Epirote organizations. That's why Imir says that these figures are inflated (on both sides).Alexikoua (talk) 21:34, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

No, wait, thats really intresting, because we talk about 2 different offers. The greek one was in 1924, when there was Fan Noli prime minister of Albania, who did not accept it. THis could be another offer, from Ahmet Zogu. But, it should have another reference, because IMIR, is not reliable.Balkanian`s word (talk) 21:44, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Source's link is dead, these means no primary sources available for now. The Greek 'offer' was in 1924? Very wierd because in 1924 the Greek-Albanian border wasn't excactly delinated yet (regions like Liqenas were in Greek hands that year). How could there be such offer without knowing the excact region of the potenial exchanged population?Alexikoua (talk) 22:20, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Liqenas has nothing to do with Greece, to far away. There were 14 villages only, which were under discussion, thus a very limited number of Greeks and Albanians. As far as I saw, IMIR did not have even a bibliography, nor a single citation, it clearly does not fulfill WP:RS, so you can not use it as an argument. If IMIR`s author was wikipedian, he would have been blocked indefinetetly.Balkanian`s word (talk) 22:36, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

What about Vickers? Too many historical errors, contrary to wiki approach. As for the 1923 exchange the author says about 'a community' not the entire minority.

I'll make the adjustment about the numbers, stating that this is what Cham organizations give.--Alexikoua (talk) 09:53, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Thats already done, I have added the full census in Cham Albanians#Current demographics.Balkanian`s word (talk) 11:34, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

F... citations

I have added on the majority of the sources their online variants, in order to be easier to be read. For the others, I am waiting in the talk page, to be asked for any reference that any user is not sure, that is writly sourced, in order to give the in-line citation. I am also waiting for Mazowers- Inside Hitlers Greece, citation. Do not bullshit this page by removing whole paragraphs when you find new sources, just add them and do not bullshit this page by sourcing sentences about history, with studies that have no connection with history.Balkanian`s word (talk) 13:55, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Still no inline citation for those "several hundred" Chams joining the Axis. Unless I see one soon, you know I'm going to do. --Athenean (talk) 21:05, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Are you kiding me or what? Read that online books and studies, that I added in the page. Its Mazower saying "Several hundred were conscripted into the anticommunist Bal Komitare[sic] to act as local gendarmes". I know that you are trying to maintain that sentence that for sure is not in Mazowers book, by asking idiotic inline citation, which you can easily find just by clicking external links that are in the references.Balkanian`s word (talk) 22:07, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

I am sorry that due to RL concerns I don't have more time to devote to this article. Just a couple of notes regarding World War II: it is well-established that a) some Chams collaborated with the Axis, and conversely that b) not all of them did so. Collective guilt was used by EDES as an excuse to drive them out, but justified, it was not. Even "majority" is a term one should carefully use. Out of a population of 20,000 how many did actively collaborate? Leaving women, elderly and children out, the male population should be perhaps five thousand. How many of them joined the Axis forces? If only a few hundred, as stated in the only cited source (and Mazower is pretty reliable), then that hardly constitutes a majority. Now, on the cite on Mazower's Inside Hitler's Greece, I actually have the book, and it does not mention the Chams or any Albanians anywhere in it. I checked the section on the deportation of the Ioannina Jews (pp. 252-254), and there is no mention of them. So this reference at least is false, and I'll remove it. Regards to everyone, and please keep a cool head. Constantine ✍ 10:14, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Condemned to death

What happened to the part about a court case for WWII crimes and death penalty in absentia? I cannot quite remember the details but they seemed to be sourced. Politis (talk) 12:33, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

It is on Cham Albanians#Postwar reaction (1945-1990).Balkanian`s word (talk) 12:45, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

How can?

How can anyone suffer from assimilation? Here in Britain we have Poles, Russians, Greeks, Italians, etc who have assimilated. Greeks have assimilated in Russia, Bulgarians in Ukraine, Laz in Turkey, Albanians in Italy... The prime example is the US. The term 'suffer' seems superflous, emotional and POV - even if/especially if used by Vickers. Politis (talk) 13:47, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

E.G. You are affraid to speak albanian in public, because police may arrest you (Real-life case, some months ago, when I was in Igoumenitsa). "forced assimilation".Balkanian`s word (talk) 13:50, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

So you are basing it on personal experience. I respect that and am sorry for your discomfort, but such reasons for keeping edits are POV. Albanians speak freely their language all over Greece, including Igumenitsa. Albanian newspaper are sold where ever there is a demand. Including Igumenitsa.Politis (talk) 16:59, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

No I am basing it on Vickers and RS. You asked me what can it mean, and I gave you a real-life case. In every case I am citing Vickers, and you are citing anybody. As for the case, it wasn`t me that could not speak albanian. I could speak it without any problem. But locals, who knew Albanian language, and self-identified as Chams, were affraid to.Balkanian`s word (talk) 17:12, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

• I will look into it next time I am in the region. But I have known Greek Orthodox Arvnites in Greece and they were speaking their Arvanit Albanian dialect openly and heir children would answer in Greek, just like amongst non-English-speaking communities in the US, UK or Australia. They were also fiercly Greek because their ancestors, they told me, had fought for Greek independence so that they could be free Greeks, worshiping their faith freely.
• I just dont want this article to emphasise how 'the bad Greeks exterminated the saintly Albanians and now Epirus must be handed over to Albania'. I will not stand for that. Just like I edited forcefully to create balanced article on Cyprus issues against the inexcusable nationalism of presumed Greek editors (I believed that the 'TRNC' exists as an individual entity and that had to be respected in any article). Politis (talk) 17:36, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Totally agree with you. I don`t want a biased page. That`s why I have been careful, not to include in the article that "Greeks of Epirus were stunched nationalists", which is said in Mazower book, and other things like that. On the same time, I have emphasised that EDES forced them to leave, and not the greeks. You`re welcome to add aditional info from RS on this page.Balkanian`s word (talk) 17:43, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

How can an 'rs' make several historical faults? Vickers has to read about wiki rules. Wiki, articles like Thesprotias, Illyrians, Byzantine Empire are disagreeing with Vickers, in the way the 2002, 2007 papers are a sure ban according the wiki rules (making errors that are accidentally always pro-Albanian).

As for EDES, the British mission says clearly that the operation was undertaken by the British commander in order to secure the Epirote coast for upcoming reinforcements: Talk:Cham issue

• C. Woodhouse's report on 16 Oct. 1945: ... Zervas encouraged by the Allied Mission under myself, chased them (the Chams) out of their homes in 1944 in order to facilitate operations against the enemy (the Nazis) ...

P.R.O. (Public Record Office), F.O. 371/48094/18138.Alexikoua (talk) 17:55, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

On Vickers:
1. Her studies are about recent history, ancient history is background, and that`s why I have not used it as a source on a prior dispute on Chaonians.
2. Nobody has ever said in wiki and in every single study that because the majority of scholars think that Thesprotians were Greeks, no other scholar can say the opposite. That`s why wiki is collecting info from different RS, in order to make NPOV' articles, by [[Wikipedia:Verifiability|by not saying the truth, but just by adding different scholar opinions.
3.She has well-sourced her recent history and current situation sources, thus making it a RS.
4.For wiki rules a RS is when the author, the publisher and the paper itself are reliable. Per 1., 2. and 3. Vickers is reliabe, British Military Department is a RS and the paper itself is a RS.

On the second issue, it is stated in the article that "This operation was meant to enlarge the coastal area north of Parga under EDES and hence British control".Balkanian`s word (talk) 22:41, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

The page, however, is becoming biased because of easy assumptions. What I mean is that, the following false assumption was made: Arvanites have Orthodox Albanian origin and some Chams are orthodox, so orthodox chams are Arvanites of Epirus and vice versa, so Souliotes that also had an earlier Albanian origin and are Orthodox, are Arvanites of Epirus, so they are Chams, and so Chams played a large role in the Greek War of Independence. Now, haven't Souliotes been self-identifying as Greeks and not Chams for the last few centuries? So how does that make Chams active in the Greek Revolution? You see what I mean?--Michael X the White (talk) 21:37, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

No, no! On Souliotes there are references that say that they are Orthodox Albanians of the cham Brench.

• Richard Clogg, Minorities in Greece: Aspects of a Plural Society, 2002 ISBN 1850657068, 9781850657064 "The Souliotes were a warlike Albanian Christian community, which resisted Ali Pasha in Epirus in the years immediately preceding the outbreak the Greek War of Independence"
• Great Britain Naval Intelligence Division, Henry Clifford Darby, Greece, University Press, 1944. "...who belongs to the Cham branch of south Albanian tosks (see volume I, pp.363-5).In the mid-eighteenth century these people (the Souliotes)were a semi-autonomous community..."
• Miranda Vickers, The Albanians: A Modern History, I.B.Tauris, 1999, ISBN 1860645410, 9781860645419 "The Suliots, then numbering around 12,000, were Christian Albanians inhabiting a small independent community somewhat akin to tat of the Catholic Mirdite trive to the north
• Nicholas Charles Pappas, Greeks in Russian Military Service in the Late Eighteenth and Early Nineteenth Centuries, Institute for Balkan Studies, 1991
• Katherine Elizabeth Fleming, The Muslim Bonaparte: Diplomacy and Orientalism in Ali Pasha's Greece, Princeton University Press, 1999, ISBN 0691001944, ISBN 9780691001944 "The history of the orthodox albanian peoples of the mountain stronghold of Souli provides an example of such an overlap"
• Gerolymatos, p. 141. "The Suliot dance of death is an integral image of the Greek revolution and it has been seared into the consciousness of Greek schoolchildren for generations. Many youngsters pay homage to the memory of these Orthodox Albanians each year by recreating the event in their elementary school pageants."

And a lot of others. There is no assumption in this page, at least made by me. There are clear references about every single sentence.Balkanian`s word (talk) 22:05, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

• Still the term 'Arvanites of Epirus' is product of original reasearch (i mean these Arvanites that feel realy Albanians). There are sill Arvanites of Epirus that dont feel that belong in that category, so it's misleading too.

As for the Souliotes, sources often confuse the terms Albanians and Arvanites. A english book said that politician Th. Pangalos said that he is Albanian (actually he said Arvanite). Another english statement that made me lauph: 'Albanians are the Scots of Greece', suppose the author meant the Arvanites too.

About the 1821 Revolution, the section is very one sided. I will add the role of the Muslim Chams in that period and the fierce 'Cham civil war' (waw maybe creat a new article with this title) that occured these period (Botsaris hated his Cham compatriots very much I suppose).

Find a citation of these above, and feel free to create the "Cham civil war". I can help you, on the case of Souliotes war with Ali Pasha, it is "Edward Augustus Freeman" on the book "The Ottoman Power in Europe", stating that "This was a conquest of Christians by Mahometans ; but it was not a conquest of Christians by Turks. It was in truth a conquest of Albanians by Albanians" But, you will have to find a place that clearly cits "Cham Civil war" in a RS.Balkanian`s word (talk) 22:41, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

On Botsaris do not forget, that he was in the Albanian regiment of the French Army, his mother tangue was cham albanian dialect, per Titos Jochalas, etc. etc. etc.Balkanian`s word (talk) 22:42, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

I do not doubt that Souliotes may be seen as having earlier Orthodox Albanian origin, but that does not make them Chams. I can see one source speaking of a cham branch, but that still would be cham origin, without making them Cham Albanians. From what is written in the article, Cham Albanians self-identify as Albanians, when Souliotes do not.--Michael X the White (talk) 22:46, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

We cannot say that Souliotes self-identify as Greeks, as Souliotes today has just an origin sense. We are talking for the 18th and 19th century, when Souliotes was an actual ethnonym. Per sources, thay were Cham Albanians, and at that time they spoke Cham Albanian dialect, See Titos Jochalas.Balkanian`s word (talk) 22:49, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Michael, we must be careful to not project our 20th/21st-century ethnic categories back into the 18th century. In the time of the Souliots, this dichotomy between "Greek-identifying" and "Albanian-identifying" that you are thinking of simply did not yet exist in this form. Yes, Souliots identified politically with the Greek national cause, and were later prepared to merge into Greek society. That didn't stop them from being (Cham) Albanian at the time, and not just having "Albanian origins". The differentiation into (Greek-identifying) "Arvanites" and (non-Greek-identifying) "Albanians", just like the association of the name "Cham" with only on sides of that, is a product of the 20th century, perhaps even the second half of the 20th century. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:29, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

I see what you mean and I do not disagree, but I think in the case of Souliotes, they had already been self-identifying as Greeks before the Revolution. The differentiation may be a product of the past century, but if they had been saying "we're Greeks" since before 1800, then it is correct to say they're a Greek ethnic group with Orthodox Albanian origin. They're Greeks for themselves, and "scientists" and "intellectuals" decided they had Albanian origin. You see what I mean? I see your point with the "Cham" part being added later on, and that is why I think it is exaggerated to use a 20th century "ethnonym" for people of around 1800 (that actually have an ethnonym, Souliotes). We could say something like "they were Orthodox Albanians that sided with the Greek ethnic cause" or even better "they were Greeks with earlier Orthodox Albanian origin", but I definately think that "they were Cham Albanians" is over-exaggerated.--Michael X the White (talk) 19:19, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

You still seem to be thinking in terms of "Greek" and "Albanian" as two mutually exclusive categories. They were not. – But all in all, I'll say we should definitely de-focus this issue. Whether or in what sense these people were Greeks and/or Albanians is an issue of debate between nationally minded Wikipedians. It is not an issue of debate between serious authors in the real world. Of course they were Cham Albanians. That is such a self-evident statement, and at the same time so boring to everybody but a few nationalists, that the article should waste as few words as possible on even making it. We should definitely not waste article space and time buttressing it up, refuting it, discussing it or arguing for or against it. The article should simply take it for granted. What we might write about (with one or two sentences) is that among present-day Greeks this identification is often avoided, because of the contrast between the negative political association of the term Cham and the positive historical connotations of the term Souliote (e.g. by taking recourse to the modern construct of Arvanite rather than Albanian.) But that's a statement about modern mainstream Greek ideology, it isn't a statement about the Souliots or the Chams themselves, so it's only of marginal relevance in any case. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:34, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Sources that say: Souliotes are not of Albanian conciousness (a.k.a. Chams)

google books search leads to the results (however there must be many other):

1. The Ottoman Empire and Its Successors, 1801-. William Miller. Souliotes, 'an admirable blend of Greeks and Hellenized Albanians (aka Arvanites)'
2. The Eve of the Greek Revival. Helen Angelomatis-Tsougarakis. Souliotes 'Christian Albanians who had intermixed with Greeks...the most obvious examples of gradual intergration of Albanians into the national conciousness of Greeks are they Ydraioi and the Souliots' (this means they are Arvanites, or are the Ydraioi Chams?)
3. Capodistria: the Founder of Greek Independence: The Founder of Greek Independence. Christopher Montague Woodhouse[[7]] Souliotes, a tribe of Greeks from Epirus...' (in another book of the same author says of Albanian origin, so Arvanites)
4. The Eve of the Greek Revival. Helen Angelomatis-Tsougarakis. 'Of Albanian origin' (aka Arvanites)
5. The Muslim Bonaparte. Katherine Elizabeth Flemin. 'of albanian origin' (aka Arvanites)
6. Nationalism, Globalization, and Orthodoxy. Victor Roudometof, Roland Robertson. 'the Greek Albanian clans of the Souliotes'
7. Two Diaries.Frank McEachran. 'of Albanian origin' (again Arvanites)
8. Byzantine and Modern Greek Studies. IngentaConnect 'of Albanian origin' (Arv.)

So they were of Albanian origin the time of the Revolution. In the Souli area there were some families with the name 'Zervas' too. Suppose we have two Cham civil wars...Alexikoua (talk)

So the definition of Chams is that they are of Albanian conciousnes.... very nice, we got an answer.23:56, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

That's a logical somersault backwards. "aka Arvanites"? You are again projecting modern concepts back in time. At the time of the Souliotes, nobody made a distinction between "Arvanites" and "Albanians". These two terms were exact synonyms until far into the 20th century. "Albanian-Greek" or something like that is fine to describe the Souliotes, as far as I'm concerned, but no description that denies their being Albanian. Fut.Perf. ☼ 00:04, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

But they were counted themselves as 'Romioi' for sure. Actually the definitions of Arvanites, means excactly that their ancestry was Albanian, but they were integrated into another society, so intermariages were plenty with the local people. In that way the nationality is not clear. But it's sure that they didn't feel compatriots with their 'muslim counterparts' (I mean Cham muslims) in Paramythia. They actually were hated enemy with the beys there. I know that these terms were synonyms but today the term Arvanites describes people that are intergrated in the Greek society (part of the Greek nation, thats what the Souliotes were, fought together because they felt connected to the Greek nation, not because they were mercenaries, or just sympathized the revolution...).Alexikoua (talk) 00:20, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, today the term Arvanites means that. (And, I might add, it means that only among Greeks.) That still doesn't justify projecting it back in time. This "definition of Arvanites" is completely useless for our context here. And the opposition between the Souliotes and their Muslim counterparts was not an opposition between them and the "Albanians" but between them and the "Muslims". Whether they interpreted that opposition in some ethnic terms or not may be difficult to establish, but an opposition between "Greeks" and "Albanians" it was certainly not. In any case, that's all futile speculation - many reliable sources say they were Albanians, no reliable sources say they were not Albanians. You quoted some that said they were something that you, on your OR criteria, thought was incompatible with being Albanian, but that's a different thing. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:00, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

In that way, Souliotes are in that scale Albanians that are any other that self-indentifies as Arvanitis, Hydraioi etc.. On the other hand the term 'Cham' is an eterochronism about this period. Not to mention that the equation orthodox Chams=Arvanites of Epirus, is clear original research and not acceptable by wiki. Alexikoua (talk) 10:31, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Were on hell did you found OR, Its Vickers, Banfi, Kresti and Manda that make a clear conection. More of all, Arvanites of Epirus form part of the modern albanian nation (banfi), thus no distinction about them. There are 2 foreign and 2 greek (no albanian, not because there are not, but because i dont want to add them) that support this connection, and no single f... reference that does not support it. Cham is not an eterochronism, read this book of 1861, that say that Souliotes were a branch of tchamides. Read Psalidas that in 1833, speaks about Tzamourian.Balkanian`s word (talk) 10:47, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Guys, I really have no idea what weird ideological agendas you both (!!) are pursuing with this fight over "Arvanites". Dammit, just leave it out. It's a term that is virtually unknown outside Greece, and quite irrelevant to this article from a global perspective. You seem to be both intent on employing the use (or non-use) of that term in order to make some point about an ethnic delimitation between "real" Greeks and "real" Albanians. That's nonsensical from the start. The term has never had any such connotations, either way, prior to the mid-20th century, and it has them only in Greece (and we are writing this article not from a Greek but from an international English-speaking perspective), and sorting out whether this or that subgroup is "really" Albanian or "really" not shouldn't be our focus anyway. It's the premises of a naive nationalist perspective that you both seem to share, if under opposing angles. The term "Arvanites" should be mentioned in passing, once, the way I was suggesting it with my last edit: as something that is occasionally heard in Greek discourse, but in no way more interesting to our readers, and most certainly not something that our readers want to associate with ideological baggage either way. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:34, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Brief overview with sources

• During WWII and just after, there were a number of civil wars between different factions; Greeks against Greeks, Albanians against Albanians, Yugoslavs against Yugoslavs, Italians against Italians, as well as various 'ethnicities' against each other.
• In the late 1930s, fascist Italy was exploiting Cham irredentism in Greece and knew they could become allies against Greece. The Axis found many friends amongst the Chams of Greece and Albania (just read Ciano’s diaries).

After 1944, many important democratic Greeks and Albanians were angry at those amongst the Chams who had joined the Axis. But this was a local issue, it was not a conflict of Greece against Albania. In fact, a democratic Greek would oppose a Cham collaborator as much as he would oppose a Greek collaborator.

• Muslim Chams were also reported to have attacked Greek Orthodox Chams, and fought against the Albanian partisans. There were also unjustifiable acts of violence and intimidation against the Cham population by (extreme) Greek partisans.
• From the end of WWII until the late 1990s, the Chams (also referred to in Greek as ‘Tourkalbanoi’, meaning Muslim Albanian) were held in low esteem in Greece (but also in Albania) since popular lore and memory associated them with the last survival of Ottoman massacres against Orthodox populations on Balkan soil.

• From 1943 until the late 1940s, there emerged violent factional struggles within Albania - if not a state of civil war. Albanian Marxist historiographers of the Hoxha years often condemned WWII attacks by Albanian (fascists) against Albanians. Just read the Albanian historian Pollo. Former President Enver Hoxha, only mentions the Chams briefly in his book ‘Two friendly peoples’ (Tirana 1985). Hoxha did not see them as a worthy issue when writing about developments in Greece or about the Greek minority in southern Albania (northern Epirus). That is why Hoxha did not highlight the Chams in this book, which is a collection of his writings on Albanian-Greek relations. He seems happier to refer to Albanian and Greek people fighting together “against the Albanian and Greek quislings”. The only official reference to the Chams is found in his 1946 speech at the peace conference in Paris when he needed to defend Albania’s record during the war.

• The evidence for Cham collaboration with the Axis is reported. According to one British officer, who was in situ, the Chams were, “armed by the Italians and Germans and co-operated with them against the Greek villages controlled by the andartes. Many atrocities by them were known...”. After liberation, “... Most of them had to be conveyed into Albania by the retreating Germans in 1944, only to fall into the hands of the Communist Albanians who no doubt regarded them as traitors.” [re: Foss 1977, Epirus].

• The British services on Greek soil also referred to Muslim Cham as Turco-Albanians.

• The historian Fischer writes that “When the Germans took over from the Italians in 1943, “the first to lend unequivocal support [] came from the new territories of Kosova and Cameria []. Many Albanian leaders in Cameria [] were quick to cooperate with the Germans”. Incidentally, for Greece, the Germans were thinking in terms of population exchanges. [re: Fischer 1999, ‘Albania at War 1939-1945’].

• Also, there are the reports from the summer of 1944, by British military liaison officers responsible for reporting from Epirus and Macedonia in northern Greece:

Lt.-Col. J.M.Stevens wrote, “It is perfectly safe to move about alone and unarmed in practically all of Free Greece, except in north-west Macedonia where Comitajis wander about at night shooting up Antartes, and in Western Epirus where the Chams indulge in the same sport. If there are any Axis troops in the neighbourhood, one is immediately informed. This is not the case in areas where the villages are not organised as in the zone of Bulgar villages in the Edessa-Kastoria-Florina triangle.”

• D.J. Wallace reported in August 1944 on, “negotiations between Zervas and the Turco-Albanian [sic] irregular franc tireurs for the latter to hand over their German supplied arms...” Later, Wallace mentions that the partisans took over “the large area previously held by Turco-Albanian irregulars armed by the Germans”.
• “The Turkish banditti [sic] moved out with all the arms, horses and mules...” The local andartes then indulged in an orgy of revenge, looting and wantonly destroying everything…”

• Since the 1990s the Cham issue was forcefully re-introduce by some right wing, Albanian politicians. When Mr Berisha visited London in 1993 (?) as President of Albania, he expressed concern about the welfare of Albanians in (former) Yugoslavia. But his interest in Greece was only as an investing nation. In 1994, the Cham issue was briefly re-introduced by his right wing DP government. This new interest came just after reports on the unhappy condition of the Greek minority in southern Albania. The big change came in 2000. Mr Berisha re-introduced the Cham question in his pre-electoral campaign of September 2000, when he stood on a nationalistic platform in response to the near civil war and total anarchy that had gripped Albania in 1997. He introduced the issue to a Cham gathering in Tirana (apparently funded and organised by oversees Albanians). Politis (talk) 11:59, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

I propose that this discussion should be held in the page Expulsion of Cham Albanians, since in Cham Albanians page, is just a breif summary of the expulsion itself. On the other hand, I do not see any secondary source, exept of Wallace, whose reliability should be carefully seen, since he does terrible mistakes categorasing Albanians ans "turkish bandits" or "turko albanians".Balkanian`s word (talk) 12:06, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Of course, Wallace was on the spot, co-ordinating and in combat situations. The expression Turko Albanians originates from the 19th century; for the Greek Orthodox Albanian and Greek population, it identified specifically those Mulim Albanians who were fighting or pillaging in the name of the Turkish authorities. In the 1940s, there are also the cases of Albanian refugees (around 500) and of ethnic Greek refugees (around 5,000) from southern Albania to Greece. So do we start an article Expulsion of Greeks from Albania? Albanian refugees from Albania? Greek Albanian refugees?Politis (talk) 12:23, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Totally POV lead

"At the end of World War II, nearly all Muslim Chams in Greece were expelled to Albania by the national Greek resistance group EDES, as a collective punishment for the collaboration of some Cham Albanians with the occupation forces of the Axis as part of the Albanian nationalist Balli Kombetar.:

1. Mazower says that they were attacked, because they did not agree to fight against ELAS. So "as a collective punishment for the collaboration" is just a POV. 2. More then half of that sentence is "that f... chams that collaborated with germans", whilst our previoues sentence, was totally NPOV, made after consensus, which stated that some of them collaborated, other were part of the resistence and the rest were civilians.

Get that lead back.Balkanian`s word (talk) 12:42, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Mazower describes the refusal to join in against ELAS as the final pretext for the attack, but leaves no doubt that the attack was ultimately an act of punishment/revenge for the previous events (he speaks of a "conception ... of ethnic collective justice" motivating EDES.)

Come on, you are making a fuss over nothing, and I have the strong feeling you are doing so because you don't understand the English well. The previous version was poorly worded and just too long for the lead. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:50, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Mazower on that book speaks for three different motivations. 1. Ethnic homogenity (he describes why it could not be done with vlachs and macedonians). 2.Revenge. 3. Their refusal to ELAS.

But, whatsoever, I propose "At the end of World War II, nearly all Muslim Chams in Greece were expelled to Albania by the national Greek resistance group EDES, as a collective punishment for the collaboration of some Cham Albanians with the occupation forces of the Axis. Although, several hundred Albanians were part of the communist Greek resistance group of ELAS."Balkanian`s word (talk) 12:56, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

The word "although" makes big red lights flashing in my mind. If you feel the need to balance off one fact with another fact, connecting them with "although", that almost invariably means you are a POV-pusher. But if you like, exchange "collective punishment" with "revenge", that's maybe better, on second thought. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:01, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Questions: Why shouldn`t we use "a minority of Cham Albanians collaborated", since it is clear in our sources?Balkanian`s word (talk) 12:57, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Because emphasising it is transparently an attempt at downplaying something. Typical POV-pushing tactics. You have an agenda, and it shows. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:01, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

My agenda my friend is to writte this article. But, I will not allow a POV lead, which only states about Chams collaboration, without stating their resistance, because sources do not agree with your point of view.Balkanian`s word (talk) 13:03, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

And, pray, what is my POV? My only POV is to get a lean, slim, readable, well-written article unencumbered with obvious agendas. Now, please, instead of sqabbling over your national anxieties, please go and do your homework and get those plagiarised texts out. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:06, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

You are accusing me for an agenda. Where on hell is my agenda? I created the page Expulsion of Cham Albanians, and although I had too much info about their resistence, I did not add them, because I had too little sources for their collaboration. Where on hell is this agenda? I have added no single Albanian source in this page, exept on culture, and Chameria battalion, where I could not find any other source, meanwhile I have added greek sources.

You made a lead which emphasized a collaboration made by a minority. I am saying either say that the collaboraters were a minority, or mention both the resistance and the collaboration of Chams, or mention none of them. Does this seem pov to you?Balkanian`s word (talk) 13:14, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

the collaboration needs to be mentioned, because the expulsion can't be understood without it. We obviously have to mention the expulsion in the lead, so the collaboration can't be avoided. The opposite activities had no consequences of that type, so they are not relevant for the lead. The only motivation for including them would be "balancing blame", and that's precisely what we should not be doing. "Some" is neutral and non-committal, and in no way implies representativity. Details about the historical context and assessment go in the section further down. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:19, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

• I presented period quotes and their souces as requested by Balkanian; I also provided them on the talk page, not in the article. I hope such extract of quotes from British sources in situ during the war are usefull (Mazower was not there). Is anyone now suggesting that their notes, diaries, comments take second place to Mazower? Also, there are more quotes from British and Italians of those years. The word 'revenge' is very loaded and only partly describes the reasons for those expulsions. Politis (talk) 13:18, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Second place? Yes, obviously. Read up in WP:OR on Primary versus secondary sources. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:21, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. At WP:OR it says that, "Research that consists of collecting and organizing material from existing sources within the provisions of this and other content policies is encouraged: this is "source-based research", and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia. Take care, however, not to go beyond what is expressed in the sources or to use them in ways inconsistent with the intent of the source, such as using material out of context. In short, stick to the sources. If no reliable third-party sources can be found on an article topic, Wikipedia should not have an article about the topic." So the sources I provided are fine for this article. Thanks, I will include them. Politis (talk) 13:33, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Please see this part of OR. You have primary sources, while wiki works on secondary sources.Balkanian`s word (talk) 13:36, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Since these are quotes from books written by analysts, historians, etc. and NOT documents found in archives, I will include them. Thanks for confirming. Politis (talk) 13:53, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

You should include what author books say, and not wat Wallace e.g. says, because authors may totally ignore them, even if they quote them.Balkanian`s word (talk) 13:55, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

OR or not OR?

As you say, Wallace is an author and one of the experts. Some would argue that Vickers is an interested party. Working for the British Foreign Office and inconsistent in her presentation of facts. Wallace also worked for the British government and became an author. Always appreciative of your encouragement. Politis (talk) 14:00, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Wallace is a primary source, and cannot be added as such. Please find books with citations and bibliography published by reliable publishers, in order to add them. And when you add them, finprovide books name, ISBN, page, et al. That`s wiki policy, not mine.Balkanian`s word (talk) 14:03, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

• Wallace is a primary source because he was there and was obliged to write objective, non-POV reports for the British government. Vickers is a primary source because she was there and had to write her own interpretation of what she say for the British government. Both of them were published. So do we get rid of all in situ authors?

This is childish but what can I say. Vickers was not even born at that time, and thus she makes studies on history, she is not a eye-witness and thus she is a secondary source. Wallace is a primary source. Wikipedia works on secondary sources not on primary sources, and thus Vickers is totally not OR, while Wallace is OR. I am not going to explain my motives, but just see that I have created Këshilla page, which is totally against albanian POV, so my motives are clear. Balkanian`s word (talk) 16:09, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

My english for sure is not good, but as far as i know, i can make my self clear. Where on hell did you find that Vickers is OR? She is a secondary source(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!), quoting people, studies, etc, she is not OR.Balkanian`s word (talk) 16:22, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

• I think I am beginning to see the misunderstanding. Vickers is quoted in the article as giving 40,000 the number of Chams in Greece. The title of her paper - from which many 'facts' in the article are chosen - is "The Cham Issue - Where to Now?"; her title is not "The Cham Issue-what was it like before I was born? :-)" Like Wallace, she went there to ask question, to meet people, to research on the ground the current situation. She wrote the paper (and other work on Albania) for the British government, who pay for such things (this is not a criticism). Wallace was in a similar situation but under different circumstances. So Vickers and Wallace can be seen as OR.... Again, I fully accept and thank you for your wiki-based argument and consequently argue that we might have to remove or re-position OR. [ps. I would never criticise you (or anyone) on their English, it is fine) Politis (talk) 16:32, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

• • My friend this is an idiotic discussion. Vickers is a secondary source, Wallace is a primary source, because Wallace wrote at the time it was conducted and it is a testimony not a historiographical study. OR means primary source. Wikipedia does not include OR. Secondary sources are not OR. So, Vickers is not OR, Wallace is OR, and you just do not get it, or you play childish games. Wallace cannot and shall not be included. Vickers can and shall be included(fullstop).Balkanian`s word (talk) 16:48, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

• • • Guys, you are getting the concepts wrong. "OR" versus "Non-OR" is not the same thing as "primary" versus "secondary" sources. WP:OR is something that we, as wikipedia editors, are not supposed to engage in. On the other hand, our sources, being the work of academic researchers, are of course legitimately just that: original research (i.e. "original research" in its true real-world meaning, and not the perverted meaning that term has taken on in Wikipedia jargon.) As for "primary" and "secondary" and where this guy Wallace fits in with that, I can't judge, because so far nobody seems to have actually cited his work. So, who was he and what did he publish? Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:46, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

• • • • Wallace is taken from here, which are reports from the ground in 1944, to the Ministry of Defence of UK. Is it a secondary source?Balkanian`s word (talk) 13:04, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

What's named after what?

The etymology section currently states that "The Cham Albanians' name derives from the region's name, Chameria". That doesn't sound very plausible linguistically. The derivational morphology strongly suggests that the region is named after the people, not the other way round. Doesn't "Cham-eria" mean "land of the Chams"? Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:56, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Logicaly you are right. Perheps Babiniotis has the etymology of "Chameria", in order to fill this gap. Can you check it?Balkanian`s word (talk) 13:00, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Arvanites of Epirus/ wiki creation or not?

The concept is old, but I see wiki is the only source in the net that adopts that term. Off course none of the 4 sources mentioned in the article states anywhere that excact term 'Arvanites of Epirus', which is misleading and geographically wrong if they are considered the same as' Orthodox Chams.

Well, usual results in google giving that term:

• ...Albania creates a minority of oppressed Arvanites in Epirus. (in not of)
• some Arvanites of Epirus..
• Arvanites of Epirus (that's the wiki)
• As for the Arvanites of Epirus and Western Macedonia...

The point is that original research is something that wiki opposes, so no rs stating that. Orthodox chams are better described with that term.Alexikoua (talk) 01:02, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm still not getting it. What are you guys fighting over, exactly? Can you both please explain here, to a naive outside editor, why you feel it is important whether or not we use the term "Arvanites"? And, please: "... of Epirus" in that context is not part of a fixed phrase or proper name. There is no specific concept of "Arvanites of Epirus". There is a concept of "Arvanites", and to the extent that you use that term, you can of course use "... of Epirus" as an ad-hoc syntactic modifier, just as you can talk of the Arvanites of Euboea, the Greeks of Alexandria, the Germans of the Banat, or whatever. As such, the modifier is self-explanatory and self-evident. It doesn't make much sense to stress the fact that Germans who live in the Banat are also called "Germans of the Banat", or Greeks who live in Alexandria are also called "Greeks of Alexandria". It makes just as little sense to stress the fact that Albanians who live in Epirus are also called "Arvanites of Epirus". Well, duh, of course they are. Thank you, Captain Obvious. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:02, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

The main point is that the term 'Arvanites of Epirus' isn't the same with 'Cham Orthodox' or 'Albanians of Epirus', something that balkanian agrees with. The concept is that not all Arvanites of Epirus are 'Orthodox Chams' because some of them are assimilated into Greek society and didn't belong to the definition that 'Vickers' and others give about 'Orthodox Chams'. A nice example is Napoleon Zervas, an Arvanite of Epirus (Arta), but not Cham Orthodox.

So, how can we claim that every Arvanite of Epirus is Albanian in ethnicity?

There were some Albanian clans before 500 or 600 years that descented south from Albania and settled in Greek inhabited areas (like that of Boua Shpata). Today their descendants (there are people with that surnames living in Epirus that dont know a single Albanian word) are called Arvanites and are assimilated into Greek society (sounds logical we r talking about several generations).

The term 'Arvanites of Epirus' and that Arvanites= Albanians is adopted only in Albanian nationalistic sites, some similar approach adopted Adolf Hitler about the supperiority of the unity of the Germanic tribes (that all Germanic tribes that migrated in the dark ages are one nation etc).

Moreover, and the most important, no sources claim that apporach (except unitedalbania.com) Alexikoua (talk) 13:07, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Inline citations Banfi says "Arvanites of Northwestern Greece, living in Epirus periphery and Florina, are part of the modern Albanian nation..."

This means that those are Albanians and not hellenized Albanians (i.e. Arvanites). Euromosaic says that expet of two villages north of Konitsa, other are Cham Albanians. What is not clear on this?Balkanian`s word (talk) 13:16, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Just per talk Arbereshe for sure are a subbranch of Albanians, and no source distincts them. They are just hellenized, self-describe as Greeks, and thats all. Arbereshe of Greece (Arvanites) live in Morea, Attica, Eubea, and other islands (hydra, etc), thus being distinct from other subbranch of Albanians. What in Greece are called Arvanites and live in Epirus, may only be either Chams or Labs, because this subbranches of ALbanians (i.e. dialect, folk tradition, etc.) live in that region. Too obvious.Balkanian`s word (talk) 13:21, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually they live in 'Epirus and Western Macedonia', what Vickers defines 'Chameria' (says to lake Prespa), why dont define seperate the Cham and Lab cumminities? Saying, 'orthodox Chams' 'orthodox Labs' part of the Arvanites in Epirus and Western Macedonia, Thats what sources say about these communities. As we said, not all Arvanites of Epirus belong to these Cham and Lab communities.

I agree about the first part, but this is Cham Albanians page, on Lab Albanians page it may be added. I have added [note a], which makes this distinction. On the second part, where can Arvanites of Epirus belong, since they do not speak Arvanitika (because the features of Arvanitika are created in Southern Greece) they do not have the arvanitic traditions (except the ones which are fully Tosk ALbanian, or Albanian traditions). They speak either cham or lab dialect and have either cham or lab features of ALbanian traditions. On your point of Napoleon Zervas (firstly we have no source that he is arvanite), I have explained you, that if an Greek of Albania, is assimilated, this does not mean that Greek minority of Albania does not exist. The same here: If a cham Albanian is assimilated, this does not mean that chams do not exist. But, we have no single source that Arvanites in Epirus are not Cham or Lab Albanians, while we have sources that claim that they are. So please find a source about your claim.Balkanian`s word (talk) 13:44, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Zervas family was one of the known Souliote families, according to your claims he is Orthodox Cham, every biography of N. Zervas says about his family roots, sources are plenty to provide (provided that souliotes are Chams as you claim) .Alexikoua (talk) 14:17, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

My claim? It is resolved in this discussion page. See here. Provide sources that Arvanites of Epirus are not Cham or Lab Albanians.Balkanian`s word (talk) 14:32, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually about Zervas geneology it is you that you already have provide sources. See this: Greeks in Russian Military Service in the Late Eighteenth and Early. Well some of the famous Souliotes: Nasos Zervas Tousias Zervas, Dimos Zervas, [8] Diamandis Zervas. So they are all Chams according to your arguments. Morevover Diamantis' second grand son is Napoleon Zervas.

The surname Zervas is of uncertain root, according to a Greek site :[9] one of Zervas very far ancestors fought together with Senderbeu. So, why the Botsareoi and the Tzaveleoi are Chams and the Zerveoi aren't? Alexikoua (talk) 20:37, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

I did not say that Zervei are not Chams, if they are Orthodox Albanians of Epirus, it was just an (in brackets) parenthesys. I have explained you, that

• if an Greek of Albania, is assimilated, this does not mean that Greek minority of Albania does not exist. The same here: If a cham Albanian is assimilated, this does not mean that chams do not exist. But, we have no single source that Arvanites in Epirus are not Cham or Lab Albanians, while we have sources that claim that they are. So please find a source about your claim.

and that

• It is resolved in this discussion page, that Souliotes were Orthodox Chams.

and that

• Provide sources that Arvanites of Epirus are not Cham or Lab Albanians, because there are references that Arvanites of Epirus are Cham or Lab Albanians.Balkanian`s word (talk) 20:47, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Didn't say that they aren't 100%, some are, some are not. If we adopt the term 'Arvanites of Epirus' for these communities only (Chams, Labs), it practically incorporates all the Arvanites (whether assimilated or not).

So about Souliotes, what about adding the Albanian name to the Zervas fammily members too? I mean, M. Botsaris, K. Tsavelas, u add them as Chams, what's the diferrence with the Zervas Souliot clan?Alexikoua (talk) 21:13, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Why not, if we are sure that they are Orthodox Cham Albanians, for sure yes.Balkanian`s word (talk) 21:18, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

On a sentence

"Chams account for the greatest part of the erstwhile substantial Albanian minority in Greek Epirus; today, the population of only two villages north of Konitsa belong to a different Albanian subgroup, that of the Labs."

Isn`t this too big and irrelevant for the lead? I have added this info (because it shoul be) in [note a], but i think that this is irrelevant for the lead as too big and with no clear signification for this article. What do you think?Balkanian`s word (talk) 13:12, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Certainly open to discussion, but since I see so much useless and misguided contention about the denotation of "Albanians", "Chams", "Arvanites" and "... of Epirus", I thought it would be useful to have it in the text: making clear that "Chams" is almost synonymous with "Albanian-speaking minority in Epirus", except for this one detail. If you don't want it in the intro, we can move it into the "definition" section. I just don't like the footnote. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:51, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

I ceartanly agree with, you, but It would be better in definition section, because it is not very important for the lead, or at least in a different paragraph, e.g. after Orthodox Chams, because it is actually, the orthodox for which we speak, since muslims do not live there anymore. Question:Wouldn`t it be better "Eastern Orthodox Churhc", rather than "Greek Orthodox Church", especially when Greek Orthodox Churhc, refers to a number of Churches, from Greece to Alexandria and to Jerusalem?. And please see my answer on Wallace.Balkanian`s word (talk) 14:57, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

To be sure, "Greek Orthodox" is a concept that isn't very well-defined in terms of actual ecclesiastical administrative structure, and strictly speaking has little meaning theologically, but in terms of a cultural, identity-defining construct it seems pretty relevant here. Also, of course, the church life these people partake of is of course that of the Church of Greece. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:14, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree, but isn`t it a bit anachronistic, to define "greek orthodox", "albanian orthodox", "(ethnicity) orthodox", when we speak solely about religion? Isn`t this a confusion for a third party reader, who does not know that "greek orthodox" means somebody that adheres to Church of Greece, and "albanian orthodox" somebody that adheres to Church of Albania, not implying ethnicity?Balkanian`s word (talk) 15:20, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Are there any Christian Chams in Albania, where they could attend the Albanian Orthodox church? I thought they all originated in Greece, and the Christians weren't expelled, so they're all in Greece, right? If that's the case, then there never was an option of being "Albanian-Orthodox" anywhere near where Christian Chams lived, and since orthodoxy and "Greekness" as a cultural concept were so closely connected – and that connection is in fact the prime reason they are still there – I see nothing anachronistic about using these terms. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:34, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

No, Christian Chams (except some 100 persons) live in Greece, but this is not my point. My point is that the Greek minority in Albania adheres to the Albanian Orthodox Church, so in your way of thinking they are Albanian Orthodox Greeks? Is it normal? Does not it confuse readers? Is orthodoxy a religion or an ethnicity?Balkanian`s word (talk) 15:40, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

The difference is that "Greek Orthodoxy" has historically been an important factor in defining collective identities, of many people in many places, whereas "Albanian Orthodoxy", as far as I'm aware, never had such a function. No, I would not think of Greek Vorioipirotes as "Albanian Orthodox Greeks". But the Christian Chams being "Greek Orthodox" was precisely what made it possible for them to integrate in Greek society, and what caused them to be perceived as "Greco-Chams. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:58, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Your point is clear. But, in every case, it is just an opinion and as such, we cannot be sure about it. Secondly, exept of Greece, nowhere ethnicity and religion are confused in this way (greek orthodox, bah), so it would surely be more NPOV, saying Eastern Orthodox, which actually is the religion and cannot confuse anybody.Balkanian`s word (talk) 17:02, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Footnote format

Just a technicality: Why do we have two sets of footnotes, one regular and the other home-built? As we are now seeing, the second type requires a lot of unnecessary fiddling. Why not just integrate them in the regular "ref" technique? Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:18, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

I added the note section in order to add there information that are not adequate to be added after the sentences. It cannot be added on ref section, because they are not references but notes. On the other hand, they should be in the article for further information. E.g. note b is about the population exchange. In the article, it is written that the population exchange is about religion and not ethnicity. So, for further info I added this sentence as a note: "Under this treaty Muslims of Greece would have been exchanged with Christians of Turkey, with an exception of Muslims of Thrace and Christians of Instanbul." I think it is relevant for the article, in order to make it more clear, without creating big sections.Balkanian`s word (talk) 15:24, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

In normal academic writing, if you use footnotes, you normally use the same type of footnotes both for references and for background info notes. I don't really see a reason why we couldn't do that here too. Just because it's called "<ref>" internally doesn't mean it has to be restricted to things that are technially "references". Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:53, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Ok then remove them. Please see also about orthodoxy.Balkanian`s word (talk) 16:58, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Just for the record

• this article is too long. I am about to edit out some details that are best found in biography articles.
• Then I will re-edit some passages which misrepresent their original author. I have most of the books referred to (and I mean hardbacks, not in electronic form). Politis (talk) 17:14, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

If you are speaking about non-minor edits, than it is better to discuss them here, before starting.Balkanian`s word (talk) 17:16, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

As for the length, it has to be cut down in large parts anyway because some text is plagiarised. Balkanian, can I remind you of your promise to remove those? Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:25, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, when I said to cut out the plagiarism, I didn't mean something as superficial as this. I meant radical cuts. This is still slavishly following the exact same progression of ideas as its source, only in slightly different wording. As such it is still plagiarism. Besides, I'm pretty sure we're not just talking about this one paragraph, right? Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:19, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, I do not think there is any else, only this one is as far as I remember, and I am going to rewrite it tomorrow.Balkanian`s word (talk) 21:10, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Where is Chameria

We have discussed this and no one came up with any credible evidence. There is no doubt that the Chams are an entity that lived across a region spread across today's Epirus and southern Albania. The problem is maps and the references. They are hardly ever mentioned in historic sources. 'Their' region was clearly 'multi-ethnic', if not 'multi-ethnoreligious'. Various peoples living in that area had been referred to as Illyrinans, Epirots, Albanians, Greeks, Turks, etc. The term Cham seems to emerge strongly only after Albanian independence (of course there were no Chams before). So when we see a geographic definition of precise boundaries, it seem curious. Also, that precise geographic area has been given a specific Cham history. All this looks like another great act of wiki-nation-building. Another point is an emphasis on the bad Greeks and the pleasant Chams. In fact, history shows numerous occasions where Albanian (especially southern Tosks) and Greeks are either interchangable ethnicities or fighting for the same national cause, especially if they were Greek Orthodox. But the way the article is heading, we might see the emergence of a pure-blooded Cham nation-state! :-) Politis (talk) 17:52, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Cham is not "created" after the Albanian Independence, there are sources before it. On the other hand Chameria is a certain well-defined region (sources speak about it), and it does not mean that it was not a multi-ethnic region. Epirus was multi-ethnic, ill-defined (no northern borders can be stated), but it does not mean that it is not a region. Agree about the rest, common causes have always existed (see Souliotes).Balkanian`s word (talk) 17:59, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

For once, I will agree with Politis on something: we should be wary about ascribing precise geographical borders to this area. Can we avoid having maps that look as if there was a well-defined political-geographical entity with precise boundaries? Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:16, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

I certiantly do not agree, since it is a region well defined (at least in the north and in the south), and as such, map is no problem at all.Balkanian`s word (talk) 19:27, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Idea?

Should we consider the establishin of a History of Cham Albanians page, and leave in this one only a summary, in order to make it leaner?Balkanian`s word (talk) 21:08, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

If we do that, then we'll probably end up with semi-redundant information. I think we should try to keep things on one article. Of course, since I'm no jelim (or am I?) I guess my two cents ain't worth jack. Ha! :) Deucalionite (talk) 22:23, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Dialect section

I've reinstated one of the {{huh}} tags in the "dialects" section. The statement that the dialect has been conservative because it was in contact with Greek makes little sense at first sight. It is not a common assumption in contact linguistics that language contact promotes conservatism, and it is by no means straightforward to see how and why it should do so. In fact, quite the opposite is much more commonly assumed: Language contact promotes change. Is the writer you are quoting there a reliable source on linguistic matters? Does he offer an explanation for this surprising statement? Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:24, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

The author is reliable, he is actually the head of the Lingiustic Department of the Albanian Academy of Sciencis. My summary should be bad. He states that Cham dialect, as |Arvanitika and Arbereshe are conservative in the meaning of retaining old features of albanian (kl) isntead of (q), (l) instead of (j) and old words, not in common any more in Standard Albanian. Maybe the way I have written it is not accurate.Balkanian`s word (talk) 10:55, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Definition of Chams

In a very general way, we mention in this article that Chams were the Albanians of Epirus. We know, however, that the Greeks with much earlier "Orthodox Albanian origin" (or whatever) are the Arvanites. Babiniotis (whom we cite) mentions that "Chams" were the Muslim Albanians (Turkalbanians Τουρκαλβανοί). So were "Chams" all Albanians or just the Muslims (who, as Muslims had not integrated in the Greek society) ??--Michael X the White (talk) 12:49, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Babiniotis is not a RS about sociology or history, he is a RS about linguistics. Of course Albanians in Epirus were Cham Albanians and not Arvanites, because they spoke the cham dialect, had the cham traditions and not the arvanitic ones. Arvanites as an ethnonym applies into Greeks of Albanian origin in Southern Greece (Morea, Attica, etc.), not to every Albanian in Greece. On the other hand, as a sociological term, it impplies all Greeks of Albanian origin. But Arvanites is an ethnonym (i.e. language, culture, etc.) and as such we can use it only about those who speak Arvanitika, have the Arvanitic traditions, and self-identify as arbëreshë, other, who do not self-identify as arbëreshë, cannot be Arvanites.Balkanian`s word (talk) 13:11, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Michael, you really, really, really, must try to learn not to project your modern Greek-centric ethnic category into the past, and into the reference frame of the world at large. I know it's difficult, but try. – And, B.w., I partly disagree about the status of "Arvanites" too, but that's a different issue. You guys need to stop reifying ethnic categories. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:20, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

If we actually cite Babiniotis to tell us what "Chams" are, then we cannot just pick a part of what he gives us and use it as it fits our interests. And neither can we say that "all albanians in Epirus were the Cham Albanians" (a term, let me remind you, that has been used mostly the last century and is confusing and wrong to associate with terms of the early 19th cantury). That would just be an assumption like the other ones.--Michael X the White (talk) 12:49, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

We are not citing Babiniotis to tell us what the Chams are. Why would we do that? That's not his field of expertise. We cite him to tell us what connotations the name Cham has in present-day Greek. (That, in fact, is his field of expertise.) Just because, for you guys, in Greece, the term has been used "mostly the last century", and has developed those political overtones and that restriction to the Muslim non-Greek side, doesn't mean the rest of the world is forever doomed to follow the rules of Greek nationalist discourse. As far as I can see, Cham is, first and foremost, a term of Albanian ethnography and dialectology, describing a cultural and linguistic unit that has existed as such, quite independently of all that Muslim-versus-Christian and Greek-identifying versus non-Greek-identifying issue, and also quite independently of all the 20th-century tricks of Greek ideological discourse of disassociating the integrated Albanian-speakers from the Albanian ethnos through the artificially narrowed-down uses of terms like Chams, Arvanites and so on.

That said, Balkanian`s word, it might help to put this issue to rest if you could find some documentation when the use of the term Cham is first historically attested. I take it people in the Middle Ages weren't continually throwing that name about, but on the other hand it didn't just materialise out of thin air in 1900, did it? Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:08, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

There's also another mistake (proving, though that I am correct). Turkalbanian or Turkocham are not "derogatory misnames". The addition of "Turk-" in front of an ethnonym signifies Muslim religion (for example Τουρκόγυφτοι). Babiniotis actually mentions that, too.--Michael X the White (talk) 17:47, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

1. Babiniotis is reliable about linguistics, he cannot be reliable about history or sociology because he does not study history and sociology, but he studies linguistics.

2. "Turkalbanian" is a wiktionary:misname, because it says Turks-albanians, while they are just albanians and not turks, per the definition of "misname" (i.e. a wrong name) it is a misname.

3. Cham Albanians find it derogatory, and actually your example "Τουρκόγυφτοι" (per non-greek speakers: Turkogypsies) is a derogation too. Balkanian`s word (talk) 19:02, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

I do not know it how some find this, but still, Turk- means muslim.--Michael X the White (talk) 10:09, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

As far as i know Turk means Turk, but it was missinterpreted as muslims in the Ottoman Empire, as Greek was missinterpreted as Orthodox, and thus it is a MISNAME.Balkanian`s word (talk) 13:46, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

In this case, it is used to define religion, so it means "Muslim Albanian". What is "derogatory" about that? Babiniotis, that is a linguist, also supports that "Turkalbanian" means Muslim Albanian. What does this here have to do with history? --Michael X the White (talk) 15:05, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Disputes

There are to disputes templates in the article, and no serious deisccussion about those disputes. Can somebody list the disputed parts in the talk page, or we have to remove the templates.Balkanian`s word (talk) 14:43, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

I cannot see any discussion about anything in these page, and the only thing we have is two templates. The templates says that there should be a discussion. As long as no discussion in in here, the templates have no place.Balkanian`s word (talk) 14:11, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

1)the above discussion 2) the discussion at Souliotes. Sorry for highlighting your POV. --Michael X the White (talk) 14:15, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

You have clear answers on your questions. You have no reference, we have references. So I cannot see any dispute. Please bring references from RS and experts in the field.Balkanian`s word (talk) 14:19, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

The article makes its scope perfectly clear: "In its original ethnographic and dialectological sense, the term Cham comprises the entire Albanian-speaking population of the Thesprotia and Preveza prefectures of Greek Epirus, including both the Muslim and Christian populations. [...] Today, the remaining Christian Albanian speakers are reported to avoid the appellation [...]. In the Greek context, the use of the term has thus become largely concentrated on the earlier Muslim minority." That's the basis the article is written on. I can see nothing in the above discuussion to challenge this very simple statement. The whole hullabaloo seems to be not more than a complaint that we are not giving exclusive preference to the popular modern Greek perception of the term and its denotation. That's not a serious POV dispute. It's just a few people who seem unable to process the cognitive complexity of having a term with more than one meaning. I'm therefore going to remove those tags again. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:01, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

pov

the user who has written the article has a clear pov dont get into edit wars with him but keep that in mind 85.74.200.72 (talk) 18:27, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

yeah right.Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:28, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

(And thus is article-ownership proven.--Michael X the White (talk) 20:49, 11 March 2009 (UTC))

kretsi

on graekochams, inline citation "The appellation “Graecochams” is also used by the. Greeks of the region, though more often Albanians continue to use the Ottoman Turkish term “kaur” (the “non-believers”)"

on elas, inline citation "in may 1944 a mixed battalion of the Cham minority was formed within ELAS-fighting units under the commando of the 15th regiment in the village of Kastanjë and was called Ali Demi"Balkanian`s word (talk) 11:40, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

OR

Indicating that Chams and Arvanites are the same thing is POV. claiming that Chams and Arvanites are the same people is OR. Not only that but there are two articles for the Chams in wikipedia and this one is definitely biased so it should be in WP:AFD

and the term Graecochams is OR and completely pseudoscientific. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.74.227.126 (talk) 03:13, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

On hold: this article is awaiting improvements before it is passed or failed. Is this the final form of the article? No more to add? I feel things should settle first because I see almost everyday additions (A no. 5 criterion of nomination -stability[[10]] ). Alexikoua (talk) 12:43, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I'll add the NPOV wikitemplate till disputes are resolved--85.74.252.76 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:11, 26 March 2009 (UTC).

Which disputes?Balkanian`s word (talk) 23:14, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

the above disputes. For example The implementation of Markos Botsaris as a Cham when this is based on what comes from an uninformed source of the British Intelligence during World War 2.--85.74.252.76 (talk) 00:40, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

To User:Balkanian's Word you are obviously not willing to cooperate to solve the disputes that doesn't mean they don't exist. Removing the NPOV tag is a disruptive edit.--85.74.198.36 (talk) 13:00, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Disputes of content review

• Does M. Vickers use one sided only information, as it was reported by Alexikoua?
• Was there any usage of the "Cham" term, before the 20th or 19th Century?
• Was the cham eviction specifically ordered by British liaison to EDES, Col. Chris Woodhouse?
• Where is the citation of Τρίτου, Μιχαήλ. Τσάμηδες: Επίμαχο Πρόβλημα Ελλάδος και Ορθόδοξου Εκκλησίας Αλβανίας. Εκδοτικός Οίκος Κυρομάνος: Θεσσαλονίκη, 2003. In which he reports that the Muslim Chams of Thesprotia come from native Christian Greeks of which for different reasons and at different times converted to Islam.
• Why is Kollias an unreliable source whereas Vickers isn't one?
• Are the refs used to create the Map of Chameria WP:RS? And why are they self-contradicting?
• Is a definition and Synonyms of the Word Cham in Babiniotis dictionary enough to use as the definitive source of these statement:

The name "Cham", together with that of the region, "Chameria", is of uncertain origin. It may derive from the local Greek hydronym Thyamis (Θύαμις in Greek, Çam in Albanian) or from the ancient Thraco-Illyrian tribe of Sameis

• Why isn't this included in the article:

Albanian Cham units also played an active part in the Holocaust in Greece. Mazower, Mark. Inside Hitler's Greece: The Experience of Occupation, 1941-44. Yale University Press, 1993, ISBN 0300089236.

• Are Arvanites Chams?

No per:

1. The Ottoman Empire and Its Successors, 1801-. William Miller. Souliotes, 'an admirable blend of Greeks and Hellenized Albanians (aka Arvanites)'

2. The Eve of the Greek Revival. Helen Angelomatis-Tsougarakis. Souliotes 'Christian Albanians who had intermixed with Greeks...the most obvious examples of gradual intergration of Albanians into the national conciousness of Greeks are they Ydraioi and the Souliots' (this means they are Arvanites, or are the Ydraioi Chams?)

3. Capodistria: the Founder of Greek Independence: The Founder of Greek Independence. Christopher Montague Woodhouse7 Souliotes, a tribe of Greeks from Epirus...' (in another book of the same author says of Albanian origin, so Arvanites)

4. The Eve of the Greek Revival. Helen Angelomatis-Tsougarakis. 'Of Albanian origin' (aka Arvanites)

5. The Muslim Bonaparte. Katherine Elizabeth Flemin. 'of albanian origin' (aka Arvanites)

6. Nationalism, Globalization, and Orthodoxy. Victor Roudometof, Roland Robertson. 'the Greek Albanian clans of the Souliotes'

7. Two Diaries.Frank McEachran. 'of Albanian origin' (again Arvanites)

8. Byzantine and Modern Greek Studies. IngentaConnect 'of Albanian origin' (Arv.)

There you go just some of the disputes of the content of the article which Have Not been solved.--Sadbuttrue92 (talk) 18:19, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Adding a list is not enaugh to create e dispute. For these reasons.

• Does M. Vickers use one sided only information, as it was reported by Alexikoua?

No she doesn`t, there are references from Greek authors too. Its a clear case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. And by the way, just give Greek stances, in reliable sources.

• Was there any usage of the "Cham" term, before the 20th or 19th Century?

There has been a discussion about this, and Chams are in Finlays group, Kolokotronis memoirs, etc. It means that the term Cham was used at least as 18th century. On the other hand, there is nothing mentioned here about the use of the term, and I cannot see why this is a dispute.

• Was the cham eviction specifically ordered by British liaison to EDES, Col. Chris Woodhouse?

I dont know, find sources and add them. This cannot be a dispute, this is a question.

• Where is the citation of Τρίτου, Μιχαήλ. Τσάμηδες: Επίμαχο Πρόβλημα Ελλάδος και Ορθόδοξου Εκκλησίας Αλβανίας. Εκδοτικός Οίκος Κυρομάνος: Θεσσαλονίκη, 2003. In which he reports that the Muslim Chams of Thesprotia come from native Christian Greeks of which for different reasons and at different times converted to Islam.

Tritou Michail is not a historian, his book has no bibliography, and he is cited only by Ellinikes Grammes. So, there was a consensus that it is not a RS.

• Why is Kollias an unreliable source whereas Vickers is one?

Because there is a discussion and a consensus that Kollias is not RS, in Talk:Arvanites.

• Are the refs used to create the Map of Chameria WP:RS? And why are they self-contradicting?

The majority of the map is quite clear. The only problem is eastern borders, more exactly if it compromised Lakka of Souli and the eastern extremity of Dodona municipality, or not.

• Is a definition and Synonyms of the Word Cham in Babiniotis dictionary enough to use as the definitive source of these statement...

Yes, because Babiniotis is a RS, and a good linguist. No question about it.

• Why isn't this included in the article: Albanian Cham units also played an active part in the Holocaust in Greece. Mazower, Mark. Inside Hitler's Greece: The Experience of Occupation, 1941-44. Yale University Press, 1993, ISBN 0300089236.

Because it was a false citation by User:Athenean. User:Cplakidas who has the book, informed that there is no such a citation in that book.

• Are Arvanites Chams?

You just copy-pasted Alexikouas materials. There is a discussion and a current consensus on Souliotes about this. So there could not be a dispute when a consensus exists. If you want to challenge the current dispute, go on that page, not here. And by the wya "of Albanian origin", means "of Albanian origin", and not "Arvanites", who are just a ethno-linguistical group of Southern Greece.

You are just making noise as always. Your 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8 questions are resolved per consensus. Your fifth and 9th had to do with other pages.Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:33, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

The only one who forms this so called concensus is you. And there has been no actual talk on the issues I present.--Sadbuttrue92 (talk) 18:36, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

And BTW 18th Century means 1700-1799--Sadbuttrue92 (talk) 18:38, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

All what you said are said before, and you have just collected them. Read the consensuses reached for each one of them, and stop disturbing this page with nonsense. If you have a specific dispute. Than come and discuss it.Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:43, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

"Epirotic tribes"

It is my impression that the general international scholarly consensus on this matter is that the ancient Epirot tribes were Greek (minus of course, Albanian historians and their international supporters, e.g. Malcolm, Vickers) and not Illyrian. Therefore, I see no need to mention them here. The connection between Albanians and Illyrians is itself disputed, so to go out on a limb to say "Albanians are Illyrians, and Chams are Albanians, therefore Chams are descended from the Illyrians who were the original inhabitants of this area" is revanchism and proto-chronism at its worst. The article is extremely long as it is, and could use brevity, not irrelevant ramblings about ancient history. --Athenean (talk) 17:47, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

I have tried to put all point of views in a few sentences. The general consensus is that Epirots were Greek-speaking, maybe Hellenized Illyrians (cambridge history of antiquity), but there is another point of view that the northern Epirotes were Illyrian speaking and the southerns Greek speaking (as per references I have brought). The same per Albanians Illyrians connection. The general consensus is that Albanians are the descendents of Illyrians (except slavic scholars and Wilkes), but there are some other point of views that they are not (per references I added). Thats why there is written that "The majority of historians traditionally conclude that Illyrians were the ancestors of Albanians" and that "The majority of historians conclude that Epirotic tribes were Greek-speaking". On your way of thinking there should not be any page Origin of Albanians (which by the way lacks of references), because the "general international scholarly consensus on this matter is that the" Illyrians were Albanians. There are different opinions between scholars, and that is what I try to present with few sentences here.Balkanian`s word (talk) 17:52, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Even if the ancient Epirots were, for the sake of argument, 100% Illyrian, this section still would not belong here, because including it automatically implies that Albanians=Illyrians. There is no proof of that. The origin of the Albanians is discussed in a separate article, and for good reason. To mention the Illyrians in this article is automatic acceptance of the Illyrian theory of Albanian descent. Until such a day thay it is proven that Albanians are descendants of the Illyrians, Illyrians should not be mentioned in this article at all. This is not the article to discuss theories of the descent of Albanians or what the ancient Epirots were. There are separate articles for that, and for a reason. --Athenean (talk) 17:55, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

No because there are both POVs on Illyrian-Albanian theory and both POVs in Epirotes ethnicity theory. That is called NPOV. The majority of historians say that Illyrians were the anescetors of Albanians (except of Wilkes). The same that say that Epirotes are Greeks (hammond, borza, et.al.) say that Albanians are the descendats of Illyrians. Or are they POV? We are talking about the presence of the Albanian population in the region and of course it should be in there.Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:01, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

The point is, there is no evidence of the presence of Albanians in the region before the Middle Ages. Even if Albanians are partially descended from Illyrians, Albanians and Illyrians are still separate and distinct people, not the same people. Therefore the Illyrians are completely irrelevant to this article. As for the Epirots, who are Greeks, to include them here is simply provocative. This is not the article for discussions on the ethnicity of the ancient Epirots. --Athenean (talk) 18:06, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Whats the meaning of being separate and distinct people? How do you define that Albanians are not Illyrians` ancestors or not? "As for the Epirots, who are Greeks"... These are your problems: You are totally sure that Albanians are not Illyrians and you are totally sure that Epirots are Greeks. But the majority of authors claim that Albanians are Illyrians and that Epirots are Greeks, and a minority claim that Albanians are not Illyrians and Epirots are not Greek. Thats what I am saying, and this is NPOV (Albanian POV is that Albanians and Epirots are Illyrians).Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:15, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

The problem is, that the descent of the Albanians, and the true nature of the ancient Epirots are still the subjects of research and not 100% decided. I think we can both agree on that. This article is about a subgroup of the Albanians, the Chams. Thus, it is not a question of whether what you have written is NPOV (which it may well be), but that such discussions, on the ethnogenesis of the Albanians and the nature of the ancient Epirots do not belong here. The place for discussing the various theories of the descent of the Albanians can be discussed in Origin of the Albanians, Albania, History of Albania, etc...Similarly, numerous articles exist where the nature of the ancient Epirots and the various theories can be discussed there. An article on an Albanian subgroup such as the Chams, is not the place for such discussions, especially when it is already super-long and cluttered. The Chams are not an ancient people no matter how you look at it, most of their history is recent, and to try to reach back all the way to antiquity for such a relatively recent group stretches the imagination. I mean, what's next, digging up the Pelasgians and the Paleolithic? --Athenean (talk) 18:33, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

As far as I see we conclude on two things (correct me if I am wrong): (1) That the way that it is written is NPOV and (2) the ethnogenesis of Albanians and the ethnicity of Epirotes is disputed. If yes, than lets make our debate more clear: Is it relevant or not?

Chams are a dialectological group of Albanian, as such, (1) their anescetors (the Albanians that first got on that region) are relevant to this page and (2) we dont know how did they came in that region (not our fault, Dark Ages). As such, I think that all theories (from "descendats of ancient Epirotes", to "migratory population") should be included, indicating that which one (of course the second) is the most common on secondary RS. I think that till now we agree, don`t we?

So my remaining question is: Should we have two paragraphs (some 2000 bytes) for a summary on what disputes exist on the ethnogenesis of Albanians and the ethnicity of Epirots (indicating what the majority of scholars think) in order to make clear why two different theories exist for the population that lives there, or should we say just that there are two theories, making it unclear to a reader, why this theories exist? My opinion is that a summary of these two debates are needed, because otherwise it is quite unclear why two different theories exist. Yours? (and plese tell me if you agree with my two paragraphs?)Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:45, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm afraid we do not agree at all. I think you don't see the importance of the fact that this is the article on Chams, not Albanians as a whole. Thus the only thing that would be appropriate, would be if you had a source that mentioned that the Chams were descended from local Illyrian tribes. So far as I can see, the only source to that effect is Vickers, which is not a WP:RS for ancient history. You forget that the Chams inhabit southern Epirus, which everyone agrees was inhabited by Greek speaking tribes, not Illyrians. Therefore, to mention that the tribes of northern Epirus may have been Illyrian is outside the scope of this article. As far as what the sources tell us, the first documented presence of Albanians and specifically Chams in the region of Chameria is in the Middle Ages, through migration from the north. Nothing else. Only Vickers supports the "Descent from the ancient inhabitants" scenario. Every other source supports the "migration through the middle ages" scenario. --Athenean (talk) 19:55, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Lets ask a mediation from a non-Greek, non-Albanian editor. What do you think?Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:03, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Sure. --Athenean (talk) 18:06, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

By the way, The Cambridge ancient history. Volume 3, part 3. [[11]] is totally ignored in this paragraph. The distinction between northern and southern Epirot tribes is not a specific one, so we have to mention what we mean (which tribes?) an 'rs' has to mention exactly the names of at least some tribes. Don't forget according to Strabo the northern boundaries of Epirus are in Skumbin. Tribes like Taulantians, Encheleis and Parthinoi were usually bilingual, and were hellenized but they were never mentioned as Epirot. Inline citations are also needed.Alexikoua (talk) 20:42, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

I added inlines, and I compressed the whole part, in order to emphasise on what we need, the Albanian population of the region. What do you think about the new version?Balkanian`s word (talk) 20:59, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Aha! The Cambridge ancient history. Volume 3, part 3. [[12]] says the following that is of interest: "Illyris is the area described by the ancient Greeks as corresponding to the northern and central areas of present-day Albania. Illyrian tribes inhabited the north, and Epirot tribes the south". In other words, Illyrians were confined to the areas of central and northern Albania, i.e. not Epirus, which was inhabited by Epirot tribes. It says nothing about Illyrians inhabiting the areas corresponding to the region of Chameria. It is thus obvious that the "theory" of Chams being descended from autochthonous Illyrians is a fringe nationalist theory proposed only by nationalist Albanian historians and the likes of Vickers, and thus needs to go on the grounds of WP:FRINGE and WP:UNDUE. --Athenean (talk) 21:06, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Have you read the version I wrote? Because, there is nothing like this in it.Balkanian`s word (talk) 21:12, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Because I think that you have not read the section, I am bringig it here:

Chams are a dialectological group formed in the region of Chameria.[26] The first Albanian presence in the region is unknown as the Albanian ethnogenesis too. Authors conclude that Albanians are descendants of one of the proto-Balkanian people,[27] most commonly Illyrians,[27][19] while a minority links them with Thracians,[28][29] or Dacians.[30][27] The first undisputed mention of Albanians in Byzantine sources is in the second half of the 11th century as inhabitants of the Arbanon, in modern Albania,[27] a period when they are thought to have lived in Epirus too.[31] Albanian scholars, who agree only with the Illyrian theory of ethnogenesis, argue that Epirote tribes were Illyrians, and thus Cham Albanians are direct descendants of them.[28] But this view is regarded as incorrect by the international academic community,[28] who conclude that Epirotic tribes were a distinct group[32] of Greek-speaking,[33] possibly Hellenized Illyrians[34][35] or Illyrian-speaking in the north and Greek-speaking in the south.[34][36][37]

Thus, the most common viewpoint on Cham Albanians origin is that of migratory process during the Dark Ages,[31] as their presence is recorded before the 12th century,[31] when Slavs and Greeks were reported to live in the fields of the Epirus region, with Albanians and Vlachs as mountaineers.[38] The number of Albanians increased over the next centuries, especially due to the extension of the Despotate of Epirus over all of Albania.[39] Their first documented migration of Albanians to Epirus is in the 14th century,[39] when Albanian tribesmen supported the successful Serbian campaign against the Byzantine possessions in Thessaly and Epirus.[40] Although prior presence of Albanians is recorded, at least when the Despotate of Epiros was established,[40] the massive presence of Albanians in the region is seen as a result of the large migration during the rule of this despotate,[40] a part of whom would resettle in Attica and Peloponnese, being the descendants of modern Arvanites.[40]

Which is the concrete dispute in here now?Balkanian`s word (talk) 21:16, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Since the theory that the Chams are descended from indigenous Illyrians is supported only by nationalist Albanian historians and that this view is regarded as incorrect by the international academic community, it is simply a question of WP:UNDUE: "In general, articles should not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views, and will generally not include tiny-minority views at all. For example, the article on the Earth does not mention modern support for the Flat Earth concept, a view of a distinct minority". The "Chams as indigenous Illyrians" theory is a tiny--minority view.--Athenean (talk) 21:45, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

No it is not a case of WP:UNDUE, since the article does not give just a minority view, but a minority view that is preserved by the community itself. If earthians would massivly support that the Earth is flat, that it would surely be in Wikipedia. As it seems that it is a myth, it is clearly stated that they say that they are descendents of Epirotes, but this is not correct, because epirotes were not Illyrians. Whats the problem?Balkanian`s word (talk) 14:08, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

It's a clear cut case of WP:UNDUE, aince has you have written yourself, "this view is refuted by the international academic community". What place, then, does a view that has been refused by the wider academic community have in wikipedia? Wikipedia is supposed to reflect the international academic consensus, and it's pretty clear what that is. The "Chams as descendents of indigenous Illyrians" scenario is supported only by nationalist Albanian historians and as such is a fringe view. As for the fact that most Chams subscribe to this view, well, what can I say, that says more about the Chams themselves than it does about the theory. It's STILL the view of a tiny minority (400,000 Chams out of 6.6 billion humans) and WP:UNDUE still applies.--Athenean (talk) 22:21, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Shouldn't we just omit everything from this page that isn't specific to this one sub-group of Albanians? The whole early history and ancestry stuff is basically about the Albanian nation as a whole, so it belongs to Albanian people (or its sub-pages) and not here. Let's not turn this page into a POV fork of the other. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:24, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Misuse of sources

The interpretation of some sources is a bit far fetched, here is a part of "Selected papers: studies in Greek and Roman history and historiography. Frank William Walbank. 1985. ISBN 052130752X.

"Yet no one has questioned the Greekness of Epirus (whatever the racial origin of its people, which may well have contained Illyrian element"

So, does this mean "they were possibly hellenized Illyrians"?. Suppose the book is more rs than the article.Alexikoua (talk) 21:18, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Come on once again. He continiues saying (whatever the ultimate racial origins of its people, which may well have contained Illyrian elements). And even if he had not said that, there is the other book, which says it clearly. Don`t make noise for nothing.Balkanian`s word (talk) 21:24, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

See also Some problems of Greek history By Arnold Joseph Toynbee " It must have been because the Hellenization of Epirus, of which we can" History of Rome By Michael Grant Epirus: the geography, the ancient remains, the history and topography of Epirus and adjacent areas By Nicholas Geoffrey Lemprière Hammond and all the rest who talk about a possibility of hellenization of Epirus, as the cambridge history of antiquity states clearly too.Balkanian`s word (talk) 21:28, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

All 3 are impossible to verify. --Athenean (talk) 21:38, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

On the contrary; all three are printed sources; in general, preferable to websites. N. G. L. Hammond is an expert on Epirus; a better source than the eclectic popularizer Michael Grant, and certainly than Toynbee, who is severely dated. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:52, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

What I meant was that the way they are linked, it is not possible to verify that they say what balkanian claims without access to the print edition. Hammond for one, is one of the main sources on the Hellenicity of Epirus, so I find balkanian's claims somewhat hard to believe. --Athenean (talk) 22:59, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

So go look it up. Toynbee was widely published, and the other two should still be in print. That's what interlibrary loan is for. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:03, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

The information added was irrelevant and/or misinterpreted and/or written in an undue and pov fashion (when one can't even cite the author of a work properly, there is a problem). Frankly, pmanderson, I'd expect someone who decries "nationalism", directly or indirectly like at Talk:Greece to take a decent look at the situation here. At least the main author of this article is up to his old habits after a long period of assumed neutrality. 3rdAlcove (talk) 23:39, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Walbank, for example, (who can be shown to state simply "Epirote, that is to say Greek", just as a sidenote) was quoted as believing the Epirotes to be "Hellenized Illyrians" on a page that presents a list of "Greek words". Very nice. 3rdAlcove (talk) 23:44, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Bravo re 3rd. I think I'm too nice sometimes. Welcome back BTW. --Athenean (talk) 00:32, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Dubious

Read references:

• Some problems of Greek history By Arnold Joseph Toynbee. "If the Epirots' ancestral language was Illyrian, as it seems to have been, why do Pliny and Pseudo-Scylax distinguish the Epirotes from the Illyrians? It must have been because the Hellenization of Epirus, of which we can discern the beginnings even in Thucydides' narrative of the events of 429 BC."

• Epirus, 4000 years of Greek history and civilization By M. V. Sakellariou "...the inaccessible Epirote hinter-land was supposedly Hellenized, at an early date."

• Hellenistic civilization By François Chamoux, Michel Roussel "...one nation, Greek or thoroughly Hellenized, like Macedon or Epirus."

So this is the actual dispute isn`t it:

• possibly Hellenized Illyrians or Illyrian-speaking in the north and Greek-speaking in the south.

I do not get what you dispute now that walbank is removed?Balkanian`s word (talk) 14:04, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

"Hellenistic civilization By François Chamoux, Michel Roussel" is just a general work. We could cite hundreds like that, every single one with different conclusions. The Sakellariou-edited volume (M. B. Hatzopoulos is the author of the chapter) is misquoted entirely: "supposedly" should have hinted at that (I happen to have the volume here in Greek). Cabanes is certainly a reliable source on Epirus and it'd be nice to find out the rough linguistic boundaries as opposed to the simple "south-north" mention of Malkin (another RS, certainly). More importantly, a section on Illyrians and Epirotes (and the way it's written uggh) is out of place in an article on Chams anyhow. The way you cited Walbank is indicative of your general attitude here. At least, your current rewording is a tad better. 3rdAlcove (talk) 15:56, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Ok then lets start one by one: firstly with possibly Hellenized Illyrians. Is Arnold Joseph Toynbee a secondary RS?Balkanian`s word (talk) 20:56, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Personally, I don't see why the whole Illyrian business is even necessary here. Even if (and that's a big if) the original Epirotes were hellenized Illyrians, that bears no connection with the Albanians who came (or "appeared") into the region 2000 years later, even when we leave aside the whole "Illyrian descent of Albanians" issue. Firstly, we cannot simply assume continuity through 2000 years just because they lived in the same region, and secondly, these are two totally different and mutually unrelated ethnic identities. BTW, the reference given, "Wilkes, John (1996). The Illyrians (2 ed.). Wiley-Blackwell. pp. 384" is clearly incorrect, as the linked book doesn't even have 384 pages... Regards, Constantine ✍ 21:26, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

I completely agree with Constantine here, as this is pretty much what I've been saying all along. The presence of Cham Albanians (the people this article is supposed to be about) in the area of Thesprotia and Preveza is not documented till the Middle Ages. I've not seen a single RS to the opposite effect, namely the scenario that Chams are descended from indigenous Illyrians. Only nationalist Albanian historians, so this is a tiny-fringe view and needs to go per WP:UNDUE. A theory that is "refuted by the international academic community", as the article says, has no place in wikipedia. As for the descent of Albanians from Illyrians, that's really a completely different topic and best discussed in other, more appropriate articles. --Athenean (talk) 22:13, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, what Cp stated is the crux of the matter, though I do hope that the article is cited more accurately (is "more" even necessary?) than that section was. Of course, if the Chams themselves believe in their "Epirote" ("who are Illyrians, anyway") descent (since the Illyrian-Epirote theories are prevalent in Albanian nationalism, irrespectively of the "historical truth" of such claims which isn't important right now, and since figures such as pyrrhus and Gentius might feature in Alb. "folklore"), it can/should be mentioned in the article but a bit more properly. 3rdAlcove (talk) 14:19, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Let me make myself clear. For me:

1. It is obvious that the vast majority of authors conclude that Albanians are descandets of Illyrians.

2. It is obvious that the vast majority of authors conclude that Epirotes were Greeks.

3. It is obvious that the vast majority of authors conclude that Chams are descendats of a migrant population.

But

1. Some authors claim that Albanians are not descendats of Illyrians.

2. Some authors claim that Epirotes are Hellenized Illyrians or Hellenes and Illyrians.

3. Some unreliable authors claim that Chams are descendants of Epirotes.

I want to make clear in this article that:

1. Per WP:Summary. Albanians are mentioned in the 12th century, but are descendants of a paleo-balkan people. The majority of authors conclude that they are descendants of Illyrians, but a minority claim Dacian or Thracian.

2. Per WP:Summary. The majority of authors conclude that Epirotes were Greeks, but a minority claim Hellenized Illyrians or Hellenes in the south and Illyrians in the north.

3. That Chams are not descandants of Epirotes, but Albanian POV makes a connection between ancient Epirotes and Chams, through the theory that Epirotes were Illyrians.

The problem is that every edit I make in here is considered POV, so could somebody make a lean small summary of the above, since whatever I will write will be considered as POV?Balkanian`s word (talk) 16:10, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

If we write down every pov claim about origins and stuff we should create a separate book, like the origin of Atlantis. The unreliabilities and impossibilities have no place here considered that the historic community has "obvious" results to show.

What would be the next step? The Pelasgian link? (According to Herodotus they were the first people of Epirus).

About the Sakellariou book, it says nothing about Ilyrian origin of Epirote tribes, but of a Doric (in north Epirus) and Myceanean (in south) link (both tribes are considered Greek). Saying hellenization means nothing, all the nations were created sometime in the past. Doesnt mean that they were Illyrians before or that the Illyrians were the oldest people of the western world (a believe adopted by Albanian scholars).Alexikoua (talk) 18:03, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

No, not every POV, but the POV of the ethnic group in question. It is quite normal to add their own POV, writting on its side that this POV it is not wright, because the academic community does not support it. Its the same as everywhere else (e.g. Macedonians_(ethnic_group)#Origins). Whats the problem in here?

I would agree only if its in a seperate section, with a clear title mentionig that its POV. Off course the Greek POV approach is needed too for the balance (that they were of Greek origin, Islamized by the Ottomans etc.)Alexikoua (talk) 18:29, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

A few quick notes: I wish to state for the record that I am very glad that Balkanian is active in editing such otherwise neglected topics (we have too few Albanian editors here), and I assume that he does so in good faith... Whenever I find something dubious, however, I will say so. In the current issue: a) practically all Balkan peoples are interrelated, and descendants of other palaeo-Balkan peoples (and many extra-Balkan peoples besides), so that claims of "origin" should be made only when verifiable and clearly necessary to the article; b) a patently ahistorical or unscientific POV view should only included when it is significant to the subject, and then clearly noted as such. In other words: if a large part of the Chams consider themselves as descendants of the ancient Epirotes, and if there are sources that verify this, then of course this is important to their self-perception and should be noted. Otherwise, it is a fringe view and possibly OR. Either way, and since you yourself say that the connection with the ancient Epirotes is mostly a matter of POV and folk tradition, it should IMO not be included in the "history" section, but in the "traditions" section. As a side note, Balkanian, please be careful to provide the citations correctly. If one tries to verify them and they do not check out, it undermines your arguments tremendously and raises all sorts of suspicions, something you can ill afford given the amount of opposition to some of your contributions (and remember, the burden of proof is always on the shoulders of whomever makes a claim).

On a separate point, I am not sure the "timetable" is useful. The history section is not that dense that it needs summarizing in bullet-point style. Also, a timetable should only include the major events (wars, rebellions, major treaties or changes of status); in other words, e.g. the events for 1823, 1928, 1939, 1942, 1943 etc could well be omitted. If you insist on keeping it, I suggest you purge it of the less important events and convert it to something like Template:Roman–Persian Wars timeline infobox. I can do this if you like. Best regards, Constantine ✍ 18:32, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks CP, but I want to state it more clear. Sources we have suggest that Albanians are descendants of a proto-balkanian people, propably Illyrians, not interrelated. As such, if we want to add that Albanians first mention is in 12th century, we should stress that they are the descandants of Illyrians as Shqiptars are descendants of Albanoi(hammond, fine, etc., except of wilkes). On the relations with ancient Epirotes, this is not just the POV of Chams but a general POV of ALbanian history,(history of the Albanian People, by the Academy of Sciences of Albania) and as such it should be mentioned in the history section, not just in the tradition section. On timetable I`ll try to make it better. Thanks for the suggestion.Balkanian`s word (talk) 19:15, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

First Albanian presence in Epirus

It seems to unclear to claim that we just don't know when Albanians first appear there, its unsourced too. Even if we agree with the Illyrian link, there was never Illyrian presence in that specific region in order to raise such question.

According to Imagining Frontiers, Contesting Identities: contesting identities. G Ellis, Lud'a Klusáková. 2007. ISBN 8884924669, it is clearly stated that Albanian there is no evidence of presence till the 1250s. (There is no evidence that Albanians came southwards to Epirus in this period p. 134)Alexikoua (talk) 20:11, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

There is a reference (Arnakis) about this, but the above reference is quite intresting, let me try to find new references about the first presence, and reword that sentence.Balkanian`s word (talk) 10:27, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Can you give an Arnakis' inlines. How he defines Epirus? Considered that Arbanon (and Skoumpin) lies in (the Roman province) of Epirus Nova.Alexikoua (talk) 11:03, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

There is inline. He does not speak about "Epirus" but about "Northwestern Greece", thus its clear about the current Epirus we know.Balkanian`s word (talk) 11:28, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Sounds that Arnakis has some arguements about that claim (prior to the 12th century about northern Greece) that are not obvious on that spot. Klusakova on the contrary says that before 1250 there are is no recorded Albanian presence in Epirus.Alexikoua (talk) 12:40, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Do you have access to the Arnakis paper or is this yet another out-of-context quote? ;) I'm genuinely interested in the 10th-11th-12th view, since the few sources I've ever read on the matter usually make use of a 13th-14th date. Any more information would be welcome. 3rdAlcove (talk) 17:43, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

I do not think that they make a use of 13th and 14th century, except of the above brought by Alexikoua. All others say about a massive immigration in the 14th century, but ommit a earlier minor presence. I will bring you the wole page of Arnakis tomorrow.Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:52, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Now, I have not enaugh time to writte the whole page. But, I will summarize it: This is review of the book of Balkanopoulos, by Arnakis. On this page he writes that Slavs came in the region in 7-8th century, later he speaks the above about albanians, and ongoing about Vlachs. If you want something specific let me know.Balkanian`s word (talk) 12:24, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Right, I understand now; the mention of "History of Modern Hellenism" should have tipped me off. It's probably a review of Vakalopoulos' (not "Balkanopoulos"!) History of Modern Hellenism ("The Beginnings and its Changes" subtitle makes it even more obvious). Here's the (translated) relevant passage on Albanians from the first volume (B&C): "As for the time of their presence and settlement in Greek lands there have been various opinions. Some -very improbable- consider ("speak of") a "descent" in the 8th century already and others -more probable- in later times, up to the 14th century. We should admit that, relatively early, before the 12th century, the Albanians had started peacefully entering the northern Greek lands, descending sporadically, even as settlers after official agreements". Vakalopoulos then goes on to mention a late-13th century date for their recorded presence in Byzantine sources (or "a historically recorded presence", at least; he mentions no earlier sources though as you see above he does speak of "official agreements"). It'd be interesting to find out what he exactly means with "northern Greek lands" (it's been a great while...) as well, I'll try and look into it. Please, try to cite your sources a bit more properly, though! 3rdAlcove (talk) 17:00, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

My conclution about Arnakis about the "prior to 12th cent." claim is that he didn't agree with other sources:

1. Ca. 1250 first presence in Epirus and
2. Ca. 1350 massive migration from north and east.

would be interesting to know why he claims that (suppose something that more recent books didnt know)Alexikoua (talk) 14:38, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

40,000 out of a population of...

This is pure WP:SYNTH. The source says, "an estimated 40,000 Albanian speakers are though to live in Epirus. Yet what User:Balkanian`s word has added the population of Thesprotia, Preveza prefecture, and some villages on the Albanian side, lumped them together and called it Chameria and presto, the story is that 40,000 out of Chameria's 275,000 are Albanian speakers. I'm sorry, but this is WP:SYNTH and I cannot accept it. First, Chameria is a vaguely defined ethno/cultural region without clear boundaries, unlike the prefectures mentioned above. To take the area within some existing prefectural boundaries and call it "Chameria" is pure OR. Second, the source does not say where these "40,000" Albanian-speakers live. Balkanian assumes they all live in Thesprotia and Preveza, which is again OR. Third, he is synthesizing what the first source says with results from the Greek census. The only thing the source tells us is "40,000 Albanian speakers in Epirus", nothing more. Anything beyond that is WP:OR and WP:SYNTH and cannot be accepted. --Athenean (talk) 22:42, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

The number 275,000 includes Ioannina Prefecture. The region of Chameria is on Preveza, Thesprotia and some villages in Ioannina, so the number is not 275,000 but lower. Where on hell is SYNTH here. Do you want me to lower the number or what? Cause of course its not more than 150,000.Balkanian`s word (talk) 11:54, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Your source says "40,000 in Epirus", nothing more. Everything else after that is SYNTH and OR. It's that simple. And spare me the macho threats. --Athenean (talk) 18:01, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

And so what? The population of the region isnt 275,000? Whats this OR and SYNTH bullshits?Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:19, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

--Athenean (talk) 06:49, 13 April 2009 (UTC) Well, I think I have to agree with Athenean here. Vickers says merely that the descendants of those Orthodox Chams who were allowed to remain in Greece now number around 40,000. There is no reference to either Chameria or Epirus as such, and given the trends of urbanisation in Greece after WW2, I'd be very careful with generalisations about numbers of formerly rural populations without explicit sources. A simple reference that rephrases Vickers should suffice, like "In 2007, the descendants of the Orthodox Chams who were allowed to remain in Greece numbered an estimated 40,000". Constantine ✍ 19:38, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Please do not follow Athenean on his misreading on sources. Vickers states "An estimated 40,000 Christian Orthodox Albanians still live in the Threspotia region." So, she does not speak about general uses on Greece, or Epirus. Athenean always misscites sources #Mazower.Balkanian`s word (talk) 19:41, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Mmm, the Vickers you have cited in the "Current demographics" section says (p. 6) nothing about Thesprotia. Unless you mean a different publication of hers, I have to accept Athenean's position. As I said, generalisations on a period of over 60 years during which Greek society and settlement patterns have been transformed beyond recognition should not be undertaken without solid evidence. Constantine ✍ 20:00, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Oops, sorry its Vickers 2002, not 2007, I fixed it. Its p. 11, 3rd paragraph:[13] "An estimated 40,000 Christian Orthodox Albanians still live in the Threspotia region."Balkanian`s word (talk) 20:48, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Except that Vickers 2002 mentions 40,000 Orthodox Albanian speakers, but says nothing about Chams. She then further says that some of those 40,000 are recent immigrants. So who is misusing sources now? --Athenean (talk) 06:49, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

OK, Vickers estimates the number of Orthodox Albanians in Thesprotia at ca. 40,000 as of 2002, including recent emigrants. Evidently, the 40,000 number used in the 2007 publication must refer to this, as well. So "In 2002, in the Thesprotia prefecture, the Orthodox Albanian population was estimated at 40,000, the majority of them being descendants of the Orthodox Chams who were allowed to remain in Greece, but also including a sizeable minority of recent, post-1991 immigrants." How is that? Constantine ✍ 13:40, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

She actually says "Thesprotia region" instead of "prefecture". I'm not sure what she means by that, but it would seem to me it includes more than the prefecture, since the population of the prefecture is only 46,000. --Athenean (talk) 17:12, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Propably Chameria region, which extaneds Thesprotia prefecture.Balkanian`s word (talk) 17:14, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, probably. I'd be fine with changing it to "Chameria region" or something like that, and leave it at that. --Athenean (talk) 17:35, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Already done it. Take a look on Metaxas` section, cause I have addes some stuff. Is it ok?Balkanian`s word (talk) 17:37, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Renamingof towns

Ive noticed this sentence: "During this period, a number of villages were renamed in the region. More than 100 village names were changed from Albanian to Greek in Thesprotia, Preveza and Ioannina." And its sourced by this: [[14]]. Which are the 100 placenames that were changed from Albanian to Greek? Ajdonat to Paramythia is not excactly a change from Albanian to Greek, the same happens to Yanya>Ioannina. The source mentions toponyms of Turkish, Aromanian, Slavic, Albanian root, not only Albanian. I can't make the Albanian to Greek changes of names 100 altogether ... Alexikoua (talk) 23:40, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

There is a total of 266 name changes, but the sentence is " More than 100 village names were changed from Albanian to Greek", not meaning the etymology of the name, but the use. If a Greek-root name is used by Albanians, than it still is an Albanian name. E.g. Ajdonati is the Albanian name of Paramythia (but Ajdonati, is of Greek root Agios Donatios) this does not mean that Ajdonati is the Greek name of Paramythia, cause the Greek name of Paramythia is Paramythia. Was I clear?Balkanian`s word (talk) 13:01, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Thats the issue, there is no " More than 100 village names were changed from Albanian to Greek" in that document [[15]], although the 266 renamings (not only from Albanian to Greek) are clear mentioned. In the catalog there are no more than 20 renamings from Albanian to Greek. Cheers.Alexikoua (talk) 14:08, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Cham Albanians/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

I will be happy to review this article for GAC. H1nkles (talk) 18:03, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

GA Review Philosophy

When I do an article review I like to provide a Heading-by-Heading breakdown of suggestions for how to make the article better. It is done in good faith as a means to improve the article. It does not necessarily mean that the article is not GA quality, or that the issues listed are keeping it from GA approval. I also undertake minor grammatical and prose edits. After I finish this part of the review I will look at the over arching quality of the article in light of the GA criteria and make my determination as to the overall quality of the article.

GA Checklist

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it well written?

   A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct:

   Prose is passable though it will need to be refined if it wants to move up to FA status.

   B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation:

   There are some MOS issues, as with any article of this length, but they are minor (IMO), and as such I will not hold up passage on those issues.

2. Is it verifiable with no original research, as shown by a source spot-check?

   A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline:

   B. Reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose):

   C. It contains no original research:

   D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic:

   B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style):

   I still feel that the article is to long and could be trimmed with branch articles made the help cut out a lot of the content.

4. Is it neutral?

   It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each:

   I know this has been a contentious issue and I invited other editors who may have an opinion on the POV aspects to weigh in. I received no further input and my own concerns have been addressed.

5. Is it stable?

   It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute:

6. Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?

   A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content:

   B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

Lead

At first blush with out having read through the entire article here are my reactions to the lead:

• Per WP:Lead the lead is supposed to be an introduction to the article and summarize all of the topics within the article. An article of this length can have up to four paragraphs. Considering this, the lead is deficient and needs to be expanded. I note that very little is mentioned about Cham history, language and traditions and nothing about organizations, demographics, and notable individuals.
• The second sentence in the lead is a stub (one sentence) and should be expanded.
• There is some copy editing to be done in the lead as well but since it needs to undergo a significant expansion I'll leave that until the above work is done. H1nkles (talk) 18:11, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
• I added hard dashes to the info box in the lead. See WP:DASH regarding the usage of hard dashes (–). I haven't gone through the rest of the article to see if it is an issue throughout. This is just a heads up. H1nkles (talk) 18:16, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Name

• Can the terms: "Thesprotia" and "Preveza" be wikilinked? I'm a big opponent of over linking but in situations where there is obscure geographical locations, it may help the reader to link to an article about these places.
• Remove terms like "As such", they aren't really necessary and overburden the article with wordiness.
• I don't think you need to link misnames, doesn't add much since it just links to a definition, which seem obvious. You may want to use the noun, misnomer instead, but that would require a rewrite of the sentence.
• Per MOS:BOLD you should use italics rather than bold text for the various appellations. H1nkles (talk) 18:29, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Distribution

• No need to wikilink to homeland, I removed the link.
• You link to Ioannina here but not above, consider moving the link up to the first mention of it in the article and not linking it here.
• "some sources" in the diaspora section is a little too vague and borders on weasel wording, it's best to specify the source or reword the sentence. H1nkles (talk) 19:55, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
• Also the photo in this section has a clean up tag on the description. Please correct. H1nkles (talk) 20:55, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

History

• "Meanwhile Ottoman incursions increased, as they were occasionally called in support by despot Esau de' Buondelmonti of Ioannina." Called in support of what? For what reason?
• You have another hard dash issue here (1358–1434, 1367–1403).
• "Cham Albanians played an important role in both the Greek War of Independence and in the National Renaissance of Albania.[2]" Is this explained in more detail later? Otherwise this claim should be further explained here. It seems to be coming out of no where since the context of the paragraph it is in is about the rule of the Ottomans.
• Is there a reason "sanjaks" is not capitalized?
• What are, "second order administrative divisions"? A little explanation here would be good.
• This is awkward wording, "schools in Chameria, as elsewhere where Albanians lived" consider rewording to, "schools in Chameria, as in other Albanian provinces..."
• This sentence, "In 1870, the despot of Paramythia, Grygorios, translated the New Testament into Albanian, as his followers could not understand well the Greek language,[36] and in 1879, the first Albanian school of the region was created in Sagiada by father Stathi Melani, when the region was under the short-lived rule of the League of Prizren.[32]" is a run-on. Consider breaking it up into two, possibly three, sentences. H1nkles (talk) 20:24, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
• Your map in this section has a Description clean up tag, please address this.
• Is "Islamization" a word? Consider changing to "Effects of Islam" or "Conversion to Islam" or something along those lines. I see that you wikilink to an article on the word so I won't dig in my heels on this.
• " Islamization was widespread amongst Albanians, the majority of whom became Muslims." This is repetitive, consider removing, "the majority of whom became Muslims."
• You talk about Pashas and Beys but don't explain what they are or link them. Please do so for the novice reader. This will help keep out jargon.
• Watch out for terms like "celebrated" found here, "celebrated Köprülü family". This can border on Peacock wording and really doesn't add much to the paragraph.
• "seized to exist" I think you mean "ceased" to exist? H1nkles (talk) 20:54, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
• In the Pashalik of Janina subsection you refer to "the sultan", who was the sultan? You also refer to him in lower case in the first paragraph and upper case on the third. Please specify lower or upper.
• "In 1792 Ali declared war against them, mainly because of their persistence in refusing to acknowledge his authority, rather than economical reasons" Why include, "rather than economic reasons" the context gives no mention of economic issues so it's confusing that this is here.
• I also delinked confederacy as it doesn't really give much information. Unless there is an article on the military confederacy the Souliotes were a part of then it shouldn't be linked to a generic page.
• The caption in the Ali Pasha photo is confusing. The link is to Louis Dupré who was a French Ballet master. Also it doesn't make sense, "Ali Pasha after Louis Dupré (1821)". Please reword the caption for clarity.
• Per WP:ACCESS you cannot have left-aligned photos under third level captions. I know that sounds dumb but I think it has to do with glitches that can occur in the coding. So please move the Markos Botsaris photo to the right-hand side.
• The first paragraph in the Greek Independence sub section is a stub and should be expanded. You also have four references for one sentence, that seems a bit odd. Since it is a fairly significant claim can you expand on it using the various reference you cite.
• Your Abedin Dino photo also has a clean up tag, this is the third such photo in this article. Please make sure these are all addressed as proper use of images is one of the GA criteria.
• "disestablished", consider using a word like "disbanded". It's a little more mainstream English terminology.
• I linked the three heroes of the National Renaissance. It created a red link for Thoma Çami. You can remove this wikilink if you wish. I also delinked Osman Taka later in the next paragraph since he should be linked in the first mention of his name not the second. H1nkles (talk) 21:47, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

This is all I'll be able to do presently. I'll continue to review the article in the coming days. Since it is a long article it will take me a little while to get through it. In the cases of long articles I sometimes pause part way through the review to allow the editor(s) to address previous concerns and discuss the review to that point. I will likely do that on this article at some point. H1nkles (talk) 22:58, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

• In the Greek state section you wikilink beys but not in a previous section. Consider linking the first mention of beys. See recommendation above.
• The quote by Kaklamanos, "'the compulsory exchange shall not be applicable to the Moslem subjects of Albanian origin'" uses the term "Moslem", since it is spelled "Muslim" throughout the article you should put a (sic) after it. See WP:QUOTE for insight on this.
• "According to the Greek political historian[56] of that time Athanasios Pallis, only 1,700 were exempted under Venizellos government decision[57] and the League of Nations estimated that 2,993 Muslim Chams were forced to leave to Turkey, even after their compulsory exchange was prohibited,[58] by declaring themselves as Turks rather than Albanians.[52]" Usually cites should go at the end of the sentence, it is distracting to have them sprinkled throughout the sentence.
• The photo in the Pangalos Regime section falls into the same issue about not having left-aligned photos under third sub-headings. Please move the photo of Theodoros Pangalos to the right side.
• "rosen" isn't a word, perhaps "raised"?
• there are some prose issues in this section, for example, "but they were not given any minority rights and continued discriminations against them". Who continued the discriminations? From the context I gather it's the Greeks, but it should be spelled out because the sentence structure would point to the "they" (or the Chams). H1nkles (talk) 05:00, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
• The wording here, "Since the 1927 Greece held a state policy depriving Muslim Chams and other minorities from Greek citizenship" is wrong, I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say or I would fix it myself.
• Wording in this sentence is also awkward, "By using the term "allogenis", which in Greek means "other-race", the Greek law on citizenship made deprivation on the right of the minorities including Chams, to retain or regain their citizenship". Especially "made deprivation on the right of the minorities." I'm trying to think of a way to correct it but I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
• Does cite 65 address both the sentences preceding it? The reason I ask is because the sentence before starts with, "Such a practice is seen by scholars as..." and this should be referenced otherwise it is bordering on weasel wording. H1nkles (talk) 23:32, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
• "Paralelized"? Not sure that's a word, consider "correlate".
• There are more prose issues that I've found in the history section. Example: "However, this proposal was rejected by the Greek side, which was feared that Albania would force Greeks to flee from the country, making the exchange non-voluntary." "...which was feared...", the Greeks is the subject so in would be better to say, "who feared", making it more personal.

• "...was imposed to all minorities..." should be "on" not "to".
• "...Albanian-speaking minorities were prohibited on using..." should be "from" not "on".
• "The once who used Albanian words..." should be "those who spoke Albanian..."
• "...local population about prior confiscations..." should be "for" not "about".

• These are examples of wording issues that make me feel that the History section needs a thorough prose review to pass GA standards. H1nkles (talk) 05:57, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
• "The Muslim Chams would be restored in their land only after the fascist Italy got control of the region." They are restored "to" their land and you can drop the "the" before fascist.
• "Despite the assistance of a British expeditionary force, the country was occupied and divided it into German, Italian and Bulgarian occupation zones." Who occupied it and who divided it? I would recommend removing the "it" in this sentence.
• General comment about the history section: It does tend to stray into too much detail at times. For example there is a paragraph in the "Occupied Greece" sub-sub section that discusses the Chameria battalion, which is linked. Then it goes into the names of each group within the batallion, how many were in each group, and how many members weren't Chams along with where they were from. This isn't really necessary information, especially since you wikilink to the main article, which has all this information. This is one example that I found of too much detail. I usually tread lightly when it comes to this topic because it is a judgment call and editors usually hold pretty tightly to their content, wanting only suggestions on how to polish and improve rather than cutting. Given that, this article is very long and could do with some significant trimming (in my opinion). We can certainly discuss this if you'd like. H1nkles (talk) 15:20, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
• Watch weasel wording here, "according to sources, Zervas, was himself of Cham origin, being a descendant of Souliotes, a community that became assimilated into the Greek nation more than a century ago". What sources? The in-line citation appears to be a Greek journal, which doesn't help the English-speaking reader.
• "...as a result of the atrocities that occurred..." What atrocities? This isn't clear from the context.
• "Two attacks took place in July and August with the participation of EDES 10th Division and by those local Greek peasants whose villages have been burned down by the Cham Albanians active collaborators, in order to gain revenge: many of the Cham villages were burned and the remaining inhabitants – some 18.000 to 35,000 – fled across the border into Albania." Run-on sentence, this should be broken down. I would recommend removing the dashes and put in parentheses.
• Photo in the "Expulsion" section has a clean up tag that needs to be addressed.
• Who is Mark Mazower? You wikilink to him, which is fine, but I would also recommend adding a nominal description like, British historian...
• Consider rewording this sentence, "Led by Zervas' former officer, Col. Zotos, a loose paramilitary grouping of former guerrillas and local men went on a rampage." Rampage is a strong word, you also should specify why they attacked. H1nkles (talk) 16:20, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
• You may want to combine the last two small paras in the "Expulsion" section because they seem to be similar and since they're so small it would make one larger paragraph.
• Two issues with this quote, "...and gave 1.2 million US dollars via the UNRRA, specifically for refugees from northern Greece." Per MOS:CURRENCY the dollar amount should be formatted: US$1.2 million. Also spell out UNRRA and then put (UNRRA) in parentheses after the full name. You should probably do that with your reference to the "UN Assembly" as well. That should wrap up my review of the History section. H1nkles (talk) 16:33, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Current situation

• "In 1991, was formed in Tirana, the Chameria Political Association," Reorder this portion of the sentence, "The Chameria Political Association was formed in Tirana in 1991."
• Also this opening paragraph is a stub paragraph and should be expanded or combined. It also has issues of tense, switching from past to present tense: was formed in Tirana/which is attempting...
• IMO the first two paragraphs of the "Chams in Albania" sub section should belong in the History section. Your final sub section on post war events covers through 1990 but really there's nothing after 1953. That should be addressed from a comprehensive stand point. This information picks up in 1991 but certainly relates directly to the historical situation resulting from WWII.
• "Albanian president`s office stated that President Moisiu expressed deep sorrow at this unexplainable decision," The word "unexplainable" is a value judgment, is this part of a quote by the President's office? It border's on a minor POV statement, nothing I would get worked up about but still something to consider.
• Photo in this section also has a clean up tag.
• "which could lead to social and economic tensions developing", this is speculative and should be avoided. H1nkles (talk) 16:58, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
• "The language is spoken even by young people, because when the local population migrates to Athens, or abroad, the children are left with their grandparents, thus creating a continuity of speakers". "local population" implies everyone migrates to Athens, yet from the context I gather that you intend to mean the adults, though why would they "migrate" (which implies permanent movement from one place to another) without their children? The statement is confusing.
• This sentence, "The Greek government tried to alter the demographic structure of northwestern Greece by the introduction of settlers from other parts of the country. Vlachs in particular were encouraged to settle in abandoned Cham villages without a legal right of ownership." is a direct repeat of a sentence in the second to last para of the Postwar situation sub-sub section. Please remove as it is redundant information.
• I'm sorry but this sentence also confuses me, "Today, the majority of these Orthodox Chams are called Arvanites by others, but self-identify as Shqiptar, which means Albanians. In contrast with Arvanites, they have retained, not only a distinct ethnic identity, but also the Albanian national identity." Outsiders call them Arvanites, but they call themselves Shqiptar. Ok got it thus far. But then you say, "...in costrast with Arvanites..." (but I thought they were Arvanites, they just chose to call themselves Shqiptars). Obviously Arvanites and Shqiptars are not synonymous but I don't know what the difference is. This information is a stripped down repetition of the third paragraph in the "Ethnic apellations" section. When I read this though it caused me to pause because the first part of the sentence makes it sound like Arvanite and Shqiptar are just two different words for the same meaning, but obviously that isn't the case.

(Outdent) I'd like to ask about the tag after this sentence, "Albania has not raised the Cham issue as much as it should." It is the second such value judgment that I have encountered and does concern me from a POV stand point. I'm obviously completely neutral on this subject and I may be stepping into a vipers pit but I feel like I need to understand the reasoning behind the sentence as it is written and I need justification that it isn't a violation of WP:POV standards. I'm open minded to this and want to dialogue about it. I note an edit war on April 12, but I don't know if it revolved around this issue. I haven't been able to find the specific discussion on this issue on the talk page so I am raising it here.

I see that the tag was removed but I don't see any comment regarding this concern. I will raise POV concerns below because, after having read through some of the threads in the article's discussion page, I feel this needs to be discussed before GA passage. H1nkles (talk) 18:47, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Ok at this point I am going to pause me review and allow for comment and fixes. I'll give the article a week and then return to determine how things are going. I will watch this page and engage in discussions here as they occur and time permits. Thank you for the chance to review this article and for your anticipated work. H1nkles (talk) 00:54, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

After discussion with the primary editor I have agreed to extend the hold on the article another week. H1nkles (talk) 14:55, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

I just finished fixing some of the passages that you point out on the page. The majority of them are fixed as you have proposed, but not all of them. So, lets start one by one:

• On the lead, I think, that we should firstly finish reviewing the article, and then re-writte the lead, so I left it for the end.
• On the name and distribution sections I agree with you, and fixed what you asked.

History section

• I reworded "Meanwhile Ottoman incursions increased, as they were occasionally called in support by despot Esau de' Buondelmonti of Ioannina" to "Meanwhile despot Esau de' Buondelmonti of Ioannina called in support of his war against the Albanian nobles, the Ottoman forces leading to increasing incursions of the Ottomans in the region". I think now it is clear.
• "Cham Albanians played an important role in both the Greek War of Independence and in the National Renaissance of Albania.[2]" is just a summary sentence of what is explained in detail in 2 sub-sub sections namely: Chams in Greek War of Independence, and Chams in National Renaissance of Albania. I think it can stay in there, but I have no problem to remove it, if you feel it is unneeded.
• Sanjaks are the second order administrative divisions of the Ottoman Empire. I don`t understand what should be clarified in this passage.
• "This is awkward wording, "schools in Chameria, as elsewhere where Albanians lived" consider rewording to, "schools in Chameria, as in other Albanian provinces..."" We cannot say Albanian provinces, as in that region (as everywhere in the Balkans) lived Albanians, Greeks, Vlachs etc. so it would be incorrect to define that region ethnically.
• "Rampage is a strong word, you also should specify why they attacked." Actually, this is an inline quoting of Mazower, so I think it is ok. Also, the results, which are explained in there, shows that it was a rampage.
• "IMO the first two paragraphs of the "Chams in Albania" sub section should belong in the History section. Your final sub section on post war events covers through 1990 but really there's nothing after 1953. That should be addressed from a comprehensive stand point. This information picks up in 1991 but certainly relates directly to the historical situation resulting from WWII." The problem is that in "current situation" section I have tried to put the ongoing situation on Chams, wherevere they live. So, since 1990, when the Cham issue, got on the table and the ongoing dispute should be treated in one section, which should be different from the historical one, of pre-1990, when such an issue was not raised by the Albanian government.

• Fair enough, I understand from an organizational standpoint keeping the subjects separate, but the problem remains that there is a large gap between 1953 and 1990, what happened in the interim? H1nkles (talk) 18:41, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

• It seams that nothing notable happened. In albanian history subsection it is explained that they were discriminated during the communist regime and that the Cham issue was not rosen. So, it is not notable to add anything new in this passage. If, we find anything notable and sourced, than we will add it.Balkanian`s word (talk) 14:20, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

• I fixed the other questions you raised. What do you think, are they ok now?

Thanks once again, Balkanian`s word (talk) 19:32, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I am back after an absence for which I am apologetic. Real life demanded of me more time than I had so unfortunately Wikipedia had to take a back seat. This review is my #1 priority. I will continue the review where I left off at the "Organizations" section. Once I have finished the full article I will return and comment on previous edits.

Organizations

• This quote is confusing, "Chams have created a number of organizations, in order to fulfill their requirements." What requirements were they needing to fulfill?
• The Chameria association in Albania should be one paragraph instead of two very short paragraphs.
• This sentence, "Every year, in 27th of June, is organized in Konispol the Cham March, remembering the expulsions of Chams" is poorly structured. As a suggestion you may want to say, "Annually on June 27th, the Cham March is organized in Konispol. This march is held to remember the expulsion of the Chams."
• I've moved two photos from left alignment to right alignment per WP:ACCESS, you can't have left aligned photos under tertiary sub headings, something to do with the coding. Not a big deal unless you really disagree in having them on the right. I notice this move makes the photos much larger.
• Is this sentence, "to make researches in the history and culture fields of the cham community as an inherent and important part of the Albanian nation." a direct quote? If so it should have quote marks and you'll need to put a (sic) after "make researches" as that is incorrect wording. If it isn't a direct quote then you'll need to reword it.
• "...and the rest in USA and Turkey". This has been mentioned several times in the article and is getting repetitive, consider removing some references to this fact.
• "250.000 in 2007,[2] while in Turkey they are 80,000 to 100,000" sometimes its periods (.) and other times in comma (,) between numbers as in this quote. Please be consistent.
• There's no reference for the "Chams in Albania by town" box. This should be referenced.
• The "Religion" sub-section is amazingly small. I think this is dealt with elsewhere, can the information either be assimilated elsewhere or removed? If not then it should be expanded here as it doesn't really fit to have a two sentence sub-section. H1nkles (talk) 22:38, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Language

• In the literature section you have two, "He is considered" comments, see WP:Weasel about weasel words. There needs to be a reference to someone who considers the subject to be what ever it is claimed to be.
• Considering the subject of the section, "Language" seems to not be the best name, or at least it is incomplete as Literature and Media have little to do with dialects. Perhaps there's a better place for the last two sub-sections?
• "...but he managed to give in Albanian literature a important impact" Bad prose here, please reword.
• "He is considered the best Cham Albanian writer and poet" See above, who considers him the best?

Traditions

• I'm still uncomfortable with the prose and grammer. I've been making minor fixes as I go along but that is slowing down the review. I'm going to skip editing the article and bring up some examples of grammatical and prose issues. These are not exhaustive but represent a cross section of the problems.

• "Cham Albanian dances are well-known in Albania and Greece and are considered today as traditional dances in both countries. The most known of those is Tsamiko, the Dance of Zalongo and the Dance of Osman Taka." The best known would be better and "those" is both refering to the plural "dances" but also the singular "Tsamiko". The best known dance is... would be better.
• Duplication is a prose problem with this article, "The Tsamiko dance is the traditional dance of the Chams, and one of the best-known folk dances in Albania and Greece." This was just said in the previous sentence.

(outdent) Sorry I have to leave for now, I'll try to do more later tonight or tomorrow. H1nkles (talk) 22:56, 22 May 2009 (UTC) Continue with examples of prose problems.

• "...pay tribute to medieval ages lords and the wars with and against Ali Pasha." "Middle Ages" is not an adjective, the sentence should be reworded to put lords and wars first followed by "Middle Ages". "Pay tribute to the lords and wars fought with an against Ali Pasha during the Middle Ages."
• "Cham Albanian folk tales, have been collected in 1889 by the Danish wthnographer, Holgert Pedersen..." "were collected" not have been collected. Also is wthnographer spelled correctly? I've never heard of this word before so I can't be sure.

• What is a "benefaction"?

Lifestyle

• The kilt of high society men was made of many..." Of many what?

Notes

• Make sure all your website references including books found on google books have accessdates. Refs. 69–74 don't have accessdates, for example.
• The links are good, no dead links.
• For future reference, there are many ways for format the reference section especially when combining books and periodicals. You have put them all into the "Notes" section. The only problem with that is if you are citing several different sections of the same book. Since it is important to put page numbers for all the references this becomes difficult if you are pulling references from many different parts of one book. I recommend putting the books in their own "References" section and then list the author's last name, year of the book, and page number, in the "Notes" section. See the Olympic Games as an example of this format. Since there are several ways to format the "Notes" section I don't have a problem with what has been done here. This is a suggestion for future articles where there are several different types of sources and lots of books involved.

Overall Comments and end of review

First off I again apologize for the length of time this review has taken. I'd like to summarize here what I've said above and focus on the issues that keep me from passing the article.

• The lead is underdeveloped. This has been discussed and agreed to wait until the rest of the article is finished and then the lead would be expanded. I can't pass the article with the lead as it currently stands so this will have to be done prior to passing.
• Prose is still an issue. I commend the editors on tackling such a broad topic but I've listed some examples of prose problems above. I think a thorough prose review is in order, at least from the point where my review ended previously.
• I have no problem with it being comprehensive, perhaps a bit too comprehensive. I've discussed this above, I would also cite the discussion of the various dances and how they are performed as being a bit too much detail. The editors should be looking for ways to shorten this article. It is a bit long for the subject (in my opinion).
• There are a few examples where information is duplicated, this is one way to tighten up the article and make it a little easier to read in one sitting.

Overall the article is actually pretty close to GA. The two biggest hurdles are the prose and the lead. Please address the issues I've brought up and let me know what you think. I'm going to update the hold. Thanks for all your hard work. H1nkles (talk) 16:09, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

I have done a cursory look at the article and put it up against my review. You have incorporated most of my suggestions. Now I'd like to address the issues raised on the article's talk page. Usually I don't read talk pages while doing a review as I want to remain objective, but after a recent GA review that I did on a similarly controversial subject went horribly awry I decided to gain some perspective on the various issues with the article. Please bear in mind that I am not Albanian, I am not Greek, and I am definitely not a mediator. But I do want to understand the POV allegations that are levied in the talk page as well as the reliability of sources issues that are present on the talk page. I will raise the over-arching talk page issues that I see, not specific details but more of the big themes:

• I note that you rely heavily on Vickers. I see the first two cites are two PDF docs that are cited 68 times between the two of them. You have cited her in a couple of other spots as well. I note that Balkanian has fought many battles over this on the talk page and I respect that. Would you please supply me with information on Vickers? A background on where she's coming from, I note that she is working with the UK Ministry of defense. Is this the department that published her papers? I note a discussion about WP:OR in the talk page, I would agree that Vickers is a secondary source and not OR, though I'm uncomfortable with her reliance on her own work for some of the papers. This appears to be minor though. It appears that much work has gone into making sure the sources are credible and reliable. I do not have the time or energy to read every source and so I take this on good faith.
• Regarding POV, I am well aware of the long-running disputes between Albanian/Macedonian and Greek editors here in WP. I have read heated arguments in which both sides accuse the other of nationalism and blatant POV. I do wish cooler heads would prevail but alas they usually do not. I note that this article has not been above the fray. As an outside observer I have noticed some POV edits, which cause me concern given the fact that I am totally unfamiliar with the subject matter. One such concern is the tag that was placed in the "History" section. I raised this concern in the review and the only fix that I can see is that the tag was removed, hardly a fix in my opinion. Please address this concern.
• From what I have read in the Talk page, the comments of User:Fut.Perf. are cogent and well-reasoned. This editor is credible albeit a bit controversial at times. Nonetheless I would take this editor's opinions to heart. Especially as it relates to the length of the article. I won't hold up passage to GA over article length as this isn't clearly defined in the GA Criteria, nonetheless, the article is unwieldy and should be trimmed.

(outdent) I would not be surprised if there are editors watching this review intent on making comments or even overturning a "GA pass" based on either POV or source reliability issues. I invite those editors to participate in the review at this point by giving their opinions. Ultimately I will decide the merits of the article and do as diligent a job as possible to make sure that this article is in line with the GA Criteria.

In closing I would like these issues addressed and the Lead expanded to encompass a summary of the entire article. When I am satisfied then I will pass the article. H1nkles (talk) 20:32, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Ok, on Vickers, I can replace the majority of her sources with others (except of numbers and Current Situation in Albania). Miranda Vickers is a doctor on Modern History and her works are published by UK Ministry of Defence. But, nonetheless, although she is for sure a secondary RS, as I said I can replace the majority of her sources, if any editor disputes her during GA process. on I cannot rember what was it about. Can you remind me? As for the lead, I am confident that it is the easiest part, and as such we should be clear if the article has GA standards, in order to rewritte it. Thanks, Balkanian`s word (talk) 14:12, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I saw what POV assertion was about. It was changed to "Chams complain that Albania has not raised the Cham issue as much as it should." from "Albania has not raised the Cham issue as much as it should." in order to avoid POV.Balkanian`s word (talk) 14:15, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) Thank you for your quick response, no need to change out the source, GAs have passed with far less credible sources. The POV change is acceptable. Please commence with the Lead editing and we'll wrap this baby up. My invitation for other editors to participate in the POV/reliability of sources discussion is still open. H1nkles (talk) 15:58, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

the lead

Now, we have to rewritte the lead. I have a proposal, which I think it would be better to discuss it here before editing the article. I think the best lead is:

Cham Albanians, or Chams (Albanian: Çamë, Greek: Τσάμηδες Tsámidhes), are a dialectical and regional group of ethnic Albanians who originally resided in the coastal region of Epirus, an area known as Chameria among Albanians. Their first presence in the region is dated before the 12th century, as a result of migratory process during the Slavic migration to the Balkans.

Chams have played an important role in the wars of independence of both Albania and Greece and have influenced the cultures of the two countries, by popular dances, songs and folk traditions that originate from them. One of this dances, Tsamiko is considered a national dance in both Greece and Albania. Chams speak their own dialect of the Albanian language, which is considered one of the two most conservative dialects, the other being Arvanitika. Their language was supressed during the Ottoman Empire and the Greek state, when Albanian-language schools and even speaking in that language was forbiden.

In 1913, the majority of Chams were included under the Greek state, but they were never given any minority right, while their land was constantly confiscated by the Greek government. In 1923, a number of Chams were forcibly sent to Turkey, during the Population exchange between the two countries, although the League of Nations asked Greece not to deport any Albanian subject. In the eve of World War II, the muslim part of the population was sent to concetration camp, or to islands in exile, while during the war they were freed by the Italian occupator.

Some Cham Albanians collaborated with Italian and German forces, while approximately the same number formed two resistence battalions in the liberation movement of Albania and Greece; the rest, which formed the majority were civilians uninvolved in the war. But, at the end of World War II the whole muslim population was forced to leave the region, in an ethnic cleansing operated by anti-communist EDES forces of Greece. More than 2 thousand Muslim Chams were killed or died in the process. Today, the Muslim majority lives in Albania, United States and Turkey, as a result of their expulsion, while the Orthodox minority, which remained in Greece, has suffered from public suppression of their Albanian heritage and language. Since the fall of Communism in Albania, Muslim Chams have asked for the right to return to their homeland and restoration of their properties which were confiscated by the state, an issue that does not exist for Greece.

During the Ottoman occupation of the Balkans, the majority of Chams were islamized, while a minority of them, especially in highlands retained their Orthodox faith. Today, the exact portion of the religious affilation is unknown. In Greece, all Chams are (at least nominally) Christian Orthodox, while in Turkey they adhere Islam. In Albania and the United States their religious affilation is unknown, due to large amount of religious conversion that has happened in those two countries especially in the last decades.

Is there anything from the article that we did not sum up, or is there anything we should rephrase? If not, lets edit it... Thanks, Balkanian`s word (talk) 16:56, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm, there are a few problems with it: the history and culture sections are mixed with no apparent reason, and normally, no citations are needed in the lead, since it summarises statements that are (or should) be cited in the main text. Also, the summary part is a bit defective since it gives wight to particular events while ignoring a broader perspective. If I may propose an alternative (and slightly toned down) version:

Cham Albanians, or Chams (Albanian: Çamë, Greek: Τσάμηδες Tsámidhes), are a dialectical and regional group of ethnic Albanians who originally resided in the coastal region of Epirus, an area known after them as Chameria among Albanians. The Chams have their own peculiar cultural identity, which is a mixture of Greek and Albanian influences as well as many specifically Cham elements. In return, the Chams have influenced the popular cultures of both Albania and Greece: one of the Cham dances, the Tsamiko, is considered a national dance in both countries, and Chams played an important role in starting the renaissance of the Albanian language in the 19th century. The Chams speak their own dialect of the Albanian language, which is considered one of the two most conservative dialects, the other being Arvanitika.

The Chams have played an important role in the history of the region. The first presence of Albanian tribes, the Chams' ancestors, in Epirus, is dated before the 12th century, as a result of migratory process during the Slavic migration to the Balkans. Several Albanian principalities existed in Epirus during the Middle Ages, before the region came under Ottoman control. During the last centuries of Ottoman rule, the majority of the Chams converted to Islam, while a minority retained their original Orthodox faith. In the 19th century, the Chams played an important role in the struggles for independence of both Albania and Greece. Following the Balkan Wars of 1912–1913, the majority of Chameria came under Greek rule. For the next few decades, the Chams were marginalized and discriminated against by the Greek state, who viewed them with distrust. Their properties were confiscated, several thousand were expelled to Turkey, and their cultural identity was suppressed. Throughout the period, the Chams, supported by Albania, campaigned for recognition of minority rights, especially the right to be educated in Albanian. Although some Greek governments reined in the discriminatory practices and guaranteed these rights, others revoked them.

During World War II, some Chams collaborated with the Axis powers occupying Greece, while others joined the resistance in both Greece and Albania. Nevertheless, in 1944, the entire Muslim Cham population was expelled from Greece under the charge of collaboration. Most of them crossed the border into Albania, while others formed émigré communities in Turkey and the United States. Today, the Muslim majority of the Cham population live in these countries, while the Orthodox minority that remained in Greece has suffered from decades of suppression of their heritage and language. Since the fall of Communism in Albania, Muslim Chams have campaigned for the right of return to their homeland and restoration of their properties which were confiscated. Greece does not recognize the existence of the "Cham issue".

How does it look? Constantine ✍ 07:15, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

It looks fine, but I think it needs two corrections:

1. In the intro word, it should be noted that Epirus is in Northwest Greece, cause not everybody that reads the article, knows where Epirus is.

2. The last paragraph, I think that should be reworded as follows:

In the eve of World War II, the muslim part of the population was sent to concetration camp, or to islands in exile, while during the war they were freed by the Italian occupator. Some Cham Albanians collaborated with Italian and German forces, while approximately the same number formed two resistence battalions in the liberation movement of Albania and Greece; the rest, which formed the majority were civilians uninvolved in the war. BNevertheless, in 1944, the entire Muslim Cham population was expelled from Greece under the charge of collaboration. Most of them crossed the border into Albania, while others formed émigré communities in Turkey and the United States. Today, the Muslim majority of the Cham population live in these countries, although in ALbania and the United States their religious affilation has changed sinifically. On the other hand, the Orthodox minority that remained in Greece has suffered from decades of suppression of their heritage and language. Since the fall of Communism in Albania, Chams have campaigned for the right of return to their homeland and restoration of their properties which were confiscated. Greece does not recognize the existence of the "Cham issue".

What do you think?Balkanian`s word (talk) 11:17, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Also, are we sure that they were expelled "under the charge of collaboration." As I have explained, Mazower gives too many reasons for their expulsion and concludes that this charge was an excuse created in the aftermath of the war. Should we periphrase it?Balkanian`s word (talk) 11:20, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Let's see: "...are a dialectical and regional group of ethnic Albanians who originally resided in the coastal parts of the region of Epirus in northwestern Greece, an area known after them as Chameria among Albanians." is good by me. I disagree on point 2, because "all Muslim Chams" does not in fact include the majority of the population, only the males of military age, and that because Greece was facing a threat from Italian-controlled Albania. With the Italians playing the Cham card as much as they did in their propaganda, Greece did not have much of a choice. Therefore, including that statement in the lead without further explanation is highly misleading. The discrimination against the Chams is amply mentioned, there is no need to make Greece look the equivalent of Nazi Germany. The details of the expulsion are also best left to the main article; the reason publicly put forward was collaboration (still the mainstream version in Greece), so "under the charge" covers that, without actually implying that it was necessarily true. The fact that the Chams were not exactly welcome anyway is also covered earlier ("viewed them with distrust"), and anyone can add up one and one and get the true reason of their expulsion. The changes in religious affiliation can be covered as follows: "Today, the descendants of the Muslim majority of the Cham population live in these countries, although their religious affiliation has changed considerably in the past decades. At the same time, the Orthodox minority that remained in Greece has suffered from decades of suppression of their heritage and language." Constantine ✍ 11:52, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Ok, but with a minor problem. " the reason publicly put forward was collaboration (still the mainstream version in Greece)" The problem is that this was a reason that may have been put forword after the war. So, "under the charge" may apply to the reason why they were not allowed to turn back, not about the reason of their expulsion. Just a logical deduction. Also about their concentration camps before the war, we may periphrase it, but for sure it should be in the lead as far as the situation during WWII is a major importance on Chams history. You know, you say "Greece did not have much of a choice", but on the other hand, Chams had not much of a choice after they were liberated (dont get me wrong) by Italians. On the other hand, someone may argue why is it so important to put in the lead that some of them collaborated, when everywhere people collaborated. Do you get my point? I mean this part of history should be covered up totally in the lead, in order to let the reader know about the circuisantces. Can you propose something else? I am ok about the rest.Balkanian`s word (talk) 12:02, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, on the expulsion, we can change the wording to "under the pretext of collaboration". I really think we shouldn't go into more detail here, this is the lead section, after all, and the implication is quite clear. For the concentration camps, if we add info on them, then we also would have to mention that the Italian propaganda used the Chams as a vehicle for Albanian irredentism, and which, in conjunction with the fact that the expected battlefield actually ran across Chameria, provided the reason for the increased distrust towards the Chams. If you insist, we could add "following the Italian occupation of Albania in 1939, the Chams became a prominent propaganda theme for the Italians, who hoped thus to rally Albanian sympathies. As a result, on the eve of the Greco-Italian War, the adult male Cham population was deported by the Greek authorities to concentration camps." But again, by adding two sentences to the lead for an episode like this, I think we give it too much undue weight. The Chams' expulsion was not determined by that, but by their (alleged) subsequent collaboration (which, as stated, is still the official justification for the expulsion, thus directly pertinent). Neither was the Chams' attitude towards the Italians as "liberators" cogent on that episode alone, but on two decades' worth of discrimination from the Greek state against them.

Also, come to think of it, there is a problem with "dialectical": it refers to dialectics, not dialects... We could rephrase the intro to something like "are a group of ethnic Albanians...". Since both their regional identity and their peculiar dialect are mentioned, we don't lose in accuracy. Constantine ✍ 12:17, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Ok, what about:

Following the Italian occupation of Albania in 1939, the Chams became a prominent propaganda theme for the Italians. As a result, on the eve of the Greco-Italian War, the adult male Cham population was deported by the Greek authorities to concentration camps. After the occupation of Greece, some Cham Albanians collaborated with Italian and German forces, while approximately the same number formed two resistence battalions in the liberation movement of Albania and Greece; the rest, which formed the majority were civilians uninvolved in the war. Nevertheless, in 1944, the entire Muslim Cham population was expelled from Greece under the pretext of collaboration. Most of them crossed the border into Albania, while others formed émigré communities in Turkey and the United States. Today, the descendants of the Muslim majority of the Cham population live in these countries, although their religious affiliation has changed considerably in the past decades. At the same time, the Orthodox minority that remained in Greece has suffered from decades of suppression of their heritage and language. Since the fall of Communism in Albania, Chams have campaigned for the right of return to their homeland and restoration of their properties which were confiscated. Greece does not recognize the existence of the "Cham issue".

It is a bit long, but for sure this is the hot spot of their modern history.Balkanian`s word (talk) 12:26, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Largely OK, with a few tweaks: "some Cham Albanians collaborated with Italian and German forces, while approximately the same number participated in the resistance movements in Albania and Greece; the majority however remained uninvolved in the war." And what of the "dialectical" issue? You OK with it? Constantine ✍ 12:31, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) The lead is excellent, I did unlink the country names, per WP:Overlink it is not necessary to wikilink country names unless the link is to a specific time frame w/in the country's history (for example your linking of Germany to Nazi Germany is appropriate). After all this I will pass the article and wish you well in your further endeavors. Thank you for your timely and courteous responses to my concerns. Perhaps we can collaborate again on future articles. H1nkles (talk) 20:16, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

VANDALISM

You say : "On June 1940 the notorious Albanian bandit, wanted for theft and murders Daut Hoxha killed from two Albanian shepherds inside Albania after a quarrel over some sheep"

Where on hell is this on 18th page of Pearson??????? Stop misciting.

You say: "an army equivalent to a full division of 9 battalions (4 blackshirt battalions -Tirana, Korçë, Vlorë, Shkodër-, 2 infantry battalions -Gramos and Dajti-, 2 volunteer battalions -Tomori and Barabosi-, one battery corps -Drin". Who on hell says that?????????????????? There were Gramshi and Tomorri the only two who took place on the war.

Stop adding povish theories. I am removing this part to Expulsion of Cham Albanians, since it is too much for a summary that we are trying in this page.Balkanian`s word (talk) 11:55, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

1. "On June 1940 the notorious Albanian bandit, wanted for theft and murders Daut Hoxha killed from two Albanian shepherds inside Albania after a quarrel over some sheep" is on Owens Pearson book page 18 find out

2. All units are in Manta's book page 117--Factuarius (talk) 12:31, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

3. I included no theories of mine in the paragraph, there is only facts transfered almost word-by-word from three books already mentioned in the article before my editing. Who is to decide what parts of a given book we can mention and what is not allowed? --Factuarius (talk) 12:47, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

4. The attidute of some members of Chams before and during the war is part of the story of that population, why to rmv it to the expalsion article? With that logic we have to remove also their attidute during Ottoman's occupation, during Axis occupation etc. What you really want to mention about their history? tell us to understand what you really have in mind. --Factuarius (talk) 12:58, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Ok, sorry, my fault. I just have to see Manda again. By the way, it needs to be shorten, because this is just a summary of Expulsion of Cham Albanians, not an article itself.Balkanian`s word (talk) 14:06, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

This is not the summary of the "Expulsion of Cham Albanians" section of the article as you always say, it is the "Occupied Greece (1940–1944)" section of the article. The Expulsion of Cham Albanians section is after that. Please check it also.

Firstly you insisted that my references are incorect, then to take my paragraph to the expalsion article then that are all from greek POV authors and now you insisting to shorten the paragraph. This is not a serious attidute. I believe that what you really wanted from the start is to get rid of the paragraph. No, I believe that Chams history during the 2nd war & the occupation is a key issue to their history and cannot explained enough with just three phrases. I cannot understand your four differend positions other that you don't want to say much about these key events.

The Italian intervention in the Chamuria issue is also a major issue we cannot omitt since it was one of the very reasons of the Greco-Italian war (according to them), leading to the occupation and the subsequent events. It is impossible to say that Italy invaded Greece without saying why, especially when one of the main reason of the war was the Chames issue. How shorter we can explain all these in less of a paragraph? --Factuarius (talk) 15:03, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

What on bhell are you waiting? Why did you remove my last edit???????????? It was just the same shit as yours, just with some more sources. I just added another POV on Hoxhas life: because Vickers says something else, Pearson says something else. What on hell are you talking about? you say "Firstly you insisted that my references are incorect, then to take my paragraph to the expalsion article then that are all from greek POV authors", while my f... first edit was "1. Discuss, 2. Stop POVING, 3. You may add it to Expulsion of Cham Albanians." You may add it to Expulsion of Cham Albanians, do you read????????????????????? Balkanian`s word (talk) 17:11, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Balkanian, calm down and don't call other people's edits "VANDALISM" and stop yelling. You do not own this article. Please be civil. There is no reason why the expulsion of the Chams can't be discussed here. Maybe not in as much detail as in the expulsion article, but it should still be discussed. --Athenean (talk) 17:24, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Athenean, please read the first version (consensus version of Cplakidas), the second one of Factuarius, and the last which was just a minor reconfiguration of mine, and then see if there was or not, this on this page. Of course it was part of this page, it just was not half of that page. WP:UNDUE.Balkanian`s word (talk) 17:27, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Do you think that I am totaly stupid? Is this "minor reconfiguration"? Who you believe that can fool about? Everyone can see your minor "minor reconfigurations". You left only one phrase of mine and imediately your old friend Sarantiotis delete it. Do you guys believing yourself very clever and all the others just idiots.--Factuarius (talk) 17:53, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

NPOV

Article needs to be npoved. Issues;

1. It conflates Chams and Albanian speakers living within the state or what later became the state of Greece. In essence it confuses Chams with Arvanites and assumes all Albanian speakers to be Chams. This is clearly wrong and unacceptable.

2. Tone and style are obviously partisan. This needs to change fast.--Xenovatis (talk) 17:42, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Still no answer to the original point, this article confuses Chams with Southern Albanian speakers.--Xenovatis (talk) 18:27, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Read Talk:Cham_Albanians#Arvanites of Epirus/ wiki creation or not?, Talk:Souliotes. Read them and then start arguing. There are WP:SOURCES, quite clear on this point.Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:32, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

I have read the talk pages thoroughly and see no evidence of these sources you claim identify southern albanian speakers as Chams. If anything FP trounces your line of argumentation in this instance (and that is pretty lame incidentaly because he generally sucks at making a point). Nope we will need to see sources here--Xenovatis (talk) 18:37, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Subtext: Epirus and half of Greece belongs to modern Albania

Of course this article is POV. As it stands, the article in effect wishes to indicate that Epirus is and has been Albanian territory, that the Arvanites are pure Albanian and are misguided into thinking they are Greeks, and ergo much of Greece is, in effect, Albanian. LOL and re-LOL. And the article even has a picture of Markos Botsaris... how about including Pangalos? Naughty-naughty, and how crafty... this article needs serious re-re-editing before the POV label is removed. Politis (talk) 17:51, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, I wouldn't go that far, but the way it is written now definitely tries to portray the Chams as innocent victims of the racist genocidal Greeks. This needs to change, and it will. --Athenean (talk) 17:54, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

This article is like a property of Balkans & Sarantioti every time someone is trying to edit something, has to do with an editing war by both of them. The way is the following: First they deleting everything and then saying you to go to the talk page to say your "παράπονό σου". If you insisting they rmv it again and are going to the admin saying "please help we have someone that denying to talk", when you are going to talk are posting nothing and keep removing your text until your 3rd choice, thus winning, since they are two and you are alone. That's gentlemen the story here. Can anyone help? --Factuarius (talk) 18:11, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

I will keep a watch on this space from now on and encourage other editors who wish to help this article be more neutral to do the same.Xenovatis (talk) 18:26, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

No, this article is a GOOD ARTICLE, and you are trying to make it look like a sh... thats all. Markos Botsaris was Cham, like it or not. I am still waiting for your response: Why did you remove Vickers part on Daut Hoxha?Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:21, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

What are you talking about? when I mention Botsari? What this has to do with me? I am not the guy to answer about Vickers, you are the guys to answer why you rmv both Owen Pearson, E. Manta and Bernd J. Fischer to put Vickers although there was an open discussion about that paragraph YOU HAD ASKED FOR without saying a word about you intended to edit. --Factuarius (talk) 18:35, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Nope this article sucks and should be listed for re-evaluation. In addition BW and Sarandiot should be IP checked as I suspect them to be clones. In the mean time it should and will be re-written. IT is heavily POV as it is.--Xenovatis (talk) 18:26, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Clones they are not, but they are definitely coordinating off-wiki, as can be shown in this thread [User talk:Balkanian`s word#Mbledhje do ta organizojme tek faqja jote  :)]. Can be translated by google translate. Btw, the situation is much the same across all Greece-Albania articles, whether it is [Cham Albanians]], Gjirokaster, or Fustanella. There is a hard core of southern Albanian users (Balkanian, Sarnadioti, I Pakapshem) that share an obsession with Greece-related articles and are tag-team reverting anyone who crosses them. --Athenean (talk) 18:36, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

It would be quite good to say which are the conensensuses we have reached till now.Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:38, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Please make me a favour, read: Talk:Cham Albanians and then speak.Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:33, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

If you are not using clones why Saradioti was out a week now? Do you want the evidence if you are using cloning tactics or not? I pity you for believing that by lies or suppressing truth you are doing good job for your country. How many weeks or months can you do that work over here before everybody understand what is happening? --Factuarius (talk) 19:26, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Athenean, what comes next? EL battles? The article is completely neutral, so lets stop this here. Factuarious, I was blocked for 3 days, and I'm not a clone of Balkanian. And now please stop this nonsense, before you are reported AGAIN and get blocked AGAIN. We show good faith, so I suggest you do that too. --Sarandioti (talk) 19:30, 16 June 2009 (UTC) --Sarandioti (talk) 19:30, 16 June 2009 (UTC)