Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Record charts

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Italian Albums Chart

In the few days, i re-examined the criteria of the two Italian albums charts: FIMI and Musica e Dischi. I discovered that at least until the early 2009, Musica e Dischi covered more point of sales than FIMI.

• Musica e Dischi covered 100 specialized stores, the total of the large areas and the principal chain stores to free national service ( http://web.archive.org/web/20060421162255/www.musicaedischi.it/classifiche.php ). I written to the magazine for to know what is the total and is circa 600 point of sales (in the '60s was 4,000. From '60s to date a lot of shops were closed).

• FIMI covered only 275 point of sales until the end of the 2008 ( http://www.fimi.it/dett_ddmercato.php?id=42 ), when expanded its panel to 1,400. In July 2009 expanded the panel from 1,400 to 3,000 point of sales ( http://www.adnkronos.com/IGN/News/Spettacolo/?id=3.0.3563994896 ) and from January 2010 from 3,000 to 3,400 ( http://www.fimi.it/gfk_notametodologica.php ).

I think that at least until early/mid 2009 we would include it in the table of the reliable charts (for the albums).

I don't know for the singles, i know that's used by MTV Italy and includes physical and digital singles, but physical singles sales are very poor and FIMI covers more digital stores than Musica e Dischi. Maybe before 2008 could be used because FIMI considered the Physical Chart the main singles chart and Musica e Dischi from 2006 used also the download in its single chart. At the moment, i haven't got sufficient material for to affirm what of the both singles charts covers more point of sales before 2008. SJ (talk) 1:56, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

I think that we should do a new source page like for Japan. Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(record_charts)/sourcing_guide/Japan

SJ (talk) 0:15, 09 September 2010 (UTC)

Rhythmic Airplay Chart

Should it be added to WP:USCHARTS? Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • ^{(Otters want attention)} 02:20, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Regarding αCharts.us

"No problem with this source" is an inaccurate description. I found a problem with the site's page on Taylor Swift's "Breathe" ft. Colbie Caillat. αCharts lists it as having charted on the Billboard Hot 100 for two weeks: on November 29, 2008 at 87 and February 13, 2010 at 72. The truth is "Breathe" only charted in 2008 for one week at 87, as can be evidenced here and the song that charted at the seventy-second position that February week was Swift's cover of Better than Ezra's "Breathless" for Hope for Haiti Now: A Global Benefit for Earthquake Relief, as can be seen here. Similarly, "Breathe" ft. Colbie Caillat did not chart on the Canadian Hot 100, but "Breathless" did for two weeks—the site must have gotten the titles mixed up and thought it to be the same song, which makes me wonder how many other titles are like that. Yves (talk) 23:00, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

That's a better error rate than Billboard.com, so I can't hold that against it. The main problem is that it is an unlicensed site making unauthorized reproductions of charts, and has anonymous authorship. It doesn't meet WP:RS by any measure. It really shouldn't be used in new articles. I was hoping that by this time the use of {{singlechart}} would be so widespread that the issue would be moot, but unfortunately that isn't the case. It's becoming time to be more aggressive in eliminating its use.—Kww(talk) 23:21, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Hmmm? Do you mean errors in not archiving and inconsistency between re-entries? Yves (talk) 23:27, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Not archiving, and confusing songs with the same title. You won't find an archive site without some screwups.—Kww(talk) 23:31, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

#1 Latin singles categories

Hello, I just some consensus on whether it's okay or not to do this. Would it be okay to include categories on singles that reach #1 on the Latin Pop Airplay, Regional Mexican Airplay, Latin Tropical Airplay? Not all that songs that reach #1 on one of these charts also reach #1 on the Hot Latin Songs. Take Mientes for example. It spent 10 weeks #1 on the Latin Pop Airplay chart but only reached #4 on the Hot Latin Songs chart. Corazón Sin Cara was #1 on the Latin Tropical Airplay and reach #4 on the Hot Latin Songs chart. For covers, the Spanish version of All by Myself by Celine Dion reach #1 on the Latin Pop Airplay chart and La India's cover of Stupida (Alessandra Amoroso song) reach #1 on the Latin Tropical Airplay. So what do you think? Magiciandude (talk) 20:34, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

I have always thought that having categories for #1 single on each chart was a good idea, far better than succession charts or list articles.—Kww(talk) 20:30, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Just a question, why is the "Tropical Songs" listed under if the song has charted on the Hot 100? It's the same chart as the Latin Tropical Airplay. And to do about "if the song has not charted on the Hot Latin Songs" rule? Just about every Latin song charts on the Hot Latin Songs. Magiciandude (talk) 03:04, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

I think there should a change to the "if the song has not charted Latin Songs" to "if it has only charted on the Latin Songs". It doesn't make to sense to have only a Latin chart and ignore the other charts (Latin pop, Tropical, Regional Mexican). Billboard hands out the best performing singles each year for these charts. In addition, the Billboard Latin Music Awards has a "Hot Latin Track" for each of these categories. But if these charts are not mentioned and wins one of these awards, how would it make sense to viewers? The reason I say only on Latin charts, is because I understand that there are songs that #1 on Latin songs and topped other charts in parts of the world. Take "Loca" by Shakira. It has charted #1 on Latin songs, but it has also charted #1 on various countries, in which I can see why the Latin Pop, Tropical, and Regional Mexican would not be significant. Magiciandude (talk) 07:36, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Greek airplay charts?

Is there currently a Greek airplay chart we can use on Wikipeida? I know Nielsen Music Control (see [1]) used to be the official airplay chart of Greece, but now it seems there is also Media Inspector (see [2]), which claim on their site that they are an IFPI partner. I am not sure if Nielsen is still supplying Greek airplay data. Regardless, both of these services do not seem to offer their charts to the general public, nor do they have an archive. A user also keeps posting this chart from Radio1 (see [3]), saying their data is from Media Inspector. The site itself does not mention anything like that, in fact they do not even list where the data is from. Further, it seems to obviously be only a domestic chart. Any input on this subject would be appreciated. Greekboy (talk) 18:11, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

New Billboard chart

Billboard just introduced a new chart titled the Social 50 it basicly makes a chart based on song plays on MySpace, FaceBook, YouTube, Twitter and iLike. Should this be included in charts or not? Link STATic message me! 19:27, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

It can't go into articles on albums or songs because it's a chart of artists. That's a very unusual chart, and it doesn't fit in well with anything we do related to song or album articles. I can't think of why it couldn't be included in an artist's bio, but people would have to have some restraint. I wouldn't want to see a section in Rihanna's article detailing her every tick up and down the chart.—Kww(talk) 20:27, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Besides the ugliness I dread from seeing it on the Rihanna article (where the topic has already been raised), I would argue against adding the Social 50 to articles right now because it's too new. How much has The New York Times reported on the movements on this chart? Have the BBC, or NBC, or CNN reported the changes or trends on the chart? Has the MSM shown respect for the significance of this chart? No, I think, not yet. On top of which, I don't place much weight in counting piles of anonymous friends on some web site. We might as well compare the number of forum posts on rhiannanow.com compared to the number on Lady Gaga's site. — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 02:25, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Request for comment: Use of succession boxes

Succession boxes have been added over the past few years to albums and songs that have reached #1 on music charts from various countries as well as the many Billboard charts to display the succession of these #1s. 3, possibly 4, charts have a complete or near-complete succession listing on song articles over their chart history. However, their use for most other charts is inconsistent at best. Some songs have them for a specific chart while others from the same chart don't, or a song that reached #1 on 5 charts has succession boxes for 2 of them. The style of their use also varies from article to article. Over the past year, there has been sentiment to remove them, or at least to come up with some standardization for them, as evidenced by a history of discussions on this talk page, WT:ALBUMS and WT:SONGS. A summary of the known history can be found at WT:CHARTS/Archive 11 - Section 9 with the latest proposal in section 20 of the same archived page. Consensus on their full and consistent use (or use at all) is at a stalemate. For the most part, most wikipedians probably don't care whether they are there or not. There are editors though who like them and want to see them and other editors who would rather see them gone. Do they aid in navigation, that is, do they do what succession boxes are intended to do or do they violate policy such as WP:IINFO? In the end though, can it be determined whether they should be used for all music charts, select charts, or not used at all, and can policy be enacted and added to WP:CHARTS and/or WP:MOSMUSIC, and noted on project pages WP:ALBUMS, WP:SONGS and even WP:SBS? --Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars (talk) 21:58, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

• Support removal, I am of the same opinion as the nominating editor. Succession boxes can get extremely messy when popular songs are massively consumed with a length list of boxes. Though others have argued that the boxes can be collapsed etc. I dont believe they have a rightful place in articles. I support the notion that a list of 'See Also' links better represents the information. Either way the fact that there is not a common usage method and that they add unnecessary size to an article when the list presents the information in a better and more efficient way. -- Lil_℧niquℇ №1 ^[talk] 22:18, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
• Weak keep I have never used them to navigate from article to article, but I'm sure someone out there has, or else they would never have been added in the first place. Thanks for inviting me to give my two cents, but I have a pretty marginal opinion on this matter. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 00:30, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
• Keep - I'm certain that viewers find them helpful for navigation, and if there is a large amount of them on articles then they can just be collapsed. Nowyouseemetalk2me 00:36, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
• Keep - I agree with Justin and Nowyouseeme. Caden ^cool 00:48, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
• Keep - It is good for navigation. I don't understand how its not helpful to have the songs in succession rather than having a "See also" section clicking on the page that would show it to you. Same difference. As for it being lengthy, I say just put it in a collapsed box. But what we do need is a consensus on the charts to put them on. Like US component charts shouldn't be allowed in there, and you see alot of them in the successions. Candyo32 - Merry CHRISTmas :) 00:49, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

• Personally, I find the "See also" sections to be unattractive, visually I think the boxes are more appealing; the boxes are just a faster and more convenient way of giving you what the links in the "See also" section give. Nowyouseemetalk2me 01:04, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

• Strong Keep - I find the succession boxes very useful for navigating a list of No. 1s, usually the UK series which seems pretty complete. With regard to the UK series, it would take a lot of work to remove them all (and destroy a lot of existing work in the process) and I don't see listing them in 'See Also' as a good alternative. What happens to the date information in such a scenario? The pages with long lists (where a song has been number one in many countries) seem mainly to have been moved to a collapsed box anyway. A template could help with standardising the styling more, if necessary. Gnu andrew (talk) 01:12, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
• Keep - I personally find them to be useful. I think they're beneficial to have more than they are a detriment to articles in any way. CloversMallRat (talk) 01:50, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
• Keep, and encourage consistent use. I think there are some ways these can be improved (for example, using optional collapsing when there are more than 3 of them to avoid overwhelming a section), but removing them is not the answer to concerns about their implementation. They provide valuable context. 28bytes (talk) 03:49, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
• Remove (as the last couple of times this has come around) as unattractive tables of dubious usefulness. They:
  1. take up a bunch of space, although they can be collapsed for those users with JS turned on, if we remember to add the collapsibility;
  2. place undue emphasis on the number-oneness of songs, since we never show sucession of this week's #3 song on such-and-such chart after last week's #3;
  3. are almost pure layout tables which exhibit terrible accessibility and violate multiple points of WP:ACCESS, part of the MoS;
  4. are never locally referenced (and depend, like the lede, on having claims referenced in the body of the article);
  5. very often have the chart dates wrong (and since these are not only never referenced inline but are usually not even mentioned in the article, are totally unverifiable);
  6. are an abuse of navigation templates meant for something else entirely: office-holders and members of royalty.

It happens that I personally never use these things (except occasionally to try to check the veracity of the table's claims), so this will seem like a case of I DON'T LIKE IT. However, the ugliness of bulk I perceive can be largely hidden with JS collapsing, but the ugliness of unverifiability can't be fixed with the succession boxes as currently implemented. I guess I'm swimming against the current here but the use of these tables needs to be either fixed or stopped, IMHO. — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 04:50, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

• Remove They generally fail to be navigation boxes, as most international charts have frequent entries that never have and never will have a Wikipedia article. That means those charts have to be excluded from the succession list (which are navigation boxes, not informational items), which then creates a bias in favor of the English language charts.—Kww(talk) 05:15, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
• Remove. There are a few main issues. Firstly, if we are making succession boxes for albums and songs that reach number one on charts, there's no reason that there shouldn't be succession boxes for reaching number two, or ten, or 435. Reaching number one is no more notable than reaching any of those other placements. Naturally, if we were including succession boxes for all chart peaks, things would get ridiculous pretty fast (they already create an insane amount of clutter for huge worldwide hits). Another issue is that much of the information is uncited. Rarely if ever is it indicated in an article which recording preceeded the subject at number one, which succeeded it, and how long the subject maintained that peak. This information must be sourced, particularly in Featured Articles. I for one remove boxes immediately if the data contained within is unsourced. Thirdly, reaching number one on a chart isn't a post or title; there's no true succession involved like, say, with presidents, kings, or other office holders, the type of thing the succession boxes were actually designed for. Fourthly, it's not all that useful as a navigational aid, given you are only linking articles on the basis that they attained the same number on a chart; the association is trivial. Finally, linking to an article titled "Songs which reached number one on insert-national-charts here" in a "See also" is a far more straightforward and less cumbersome solution if someone is really interested in reading up on chart peaks.. WesleyDodds (talk) 06:46, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
  • If people were adding #2, #10 and #435 succession boxes to articles, I'd be right there with you removing them, but fortunately no one in the history of the universe has proposed doing such a thing. I could not disagree more strongly with the statement "Reaching number one is no more notable than reaching any of those other placements." Whatever the faults of the #1 succession boxes, the idea that they would inevitability lead to succession boxes for every possible chart position is probably the least compelling reason I've read for removing them. The argument that they're often (almost always?) unsourced is compelling, I think, but why not just require they be sourced? 28bytes (talk) 07:42, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
    • The argument isn't that "they would inevitability lead to succession boxes for every possible chart position", it's that logically if we are including succession boxes for songs that reached number one, we should be doing so for all chart positions. It should be all or nothing. WesleyDodds (talk) 10:10, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
• Comment. I've never found these useful myself, and I would have thought that any chart should have separate articles listing number ones (which of course are more 'notable' than other chart positions). If they are kept they should be collapsed by default. I'd like to see more evidence of their usefulness before supporting keeping them.--Michig (talk) 07:26, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
  • I think it will be tough to provide evidence of their usefulness, but speaking as a reader, I find they provide useful context, especially in regards to older songs. When I'm reading about a song that was (for example) a number one rock hit in 1982, I like seeing the song that preceded and succeeded the song as number one on that chart, and I almost always click on one or the other to refresh my memory of the song (if I'm familiar with it) or learn about it (if I'm not.) I've re-familiarized myself with songs I'd forgotten about this way. As a bonus, if the previous or next song is a redlink or redirect to an album, I dig around, find some sources, and create an article for it. This provides a great way of filling in the gaps of notable songs that don't yet have articles. I'd be much less likely to click on a "see also" list than an actual song title. If nothing else, these succession boxes are a tool to encourage people to build the encyclopedia. 28bytes (talk) 18:39, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
    • You could make the same argument if succession boxes existed for any other chart position. WesleyDodds (talk) 13:38, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
• Keep I'd be in favour of keeping the succession boxes as long as they're cited. I don't buy some of the other criticism: I'm afraid I have to disagree with Wes, reaching number 1 is seen as a massive achievement even today, at least in the UK and, given that this is the English language Wikipedia, I don't see any reason why there should be a problem with chiefly covering English language charts. Cavie78 (talk) 09:37, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

• Number two is nothing to sneeze at either; Pearl Jam's Ten peaked at number two for much of 1992. Hell, reaching the top 40 of a record chart is often seen as noteworthy in of itself. The situation would be different if there was an actual title to accompany being number one (since the succession boxes are intended for titles and offices), but there isn't. WesleyDodds (talk) 10:10, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

• Remove - I think both JfP and Wesley summed things up very well. What started out as a nice addition to a few song articles (and the concept of these are more of a "looks good on paper" scenario) has turned into somewhat of a mess. They're really just not needed and it drives me crazy to see incorrect dates, or worse, the dreaded "first-run", "second-run" disaster when a song will drop-then-return to number one. A nice idea gone bad, I think. Time to nuke 'em. - eo (talk) 13:41, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
• Remove - I completely agree with everything Lil-unique1 said. When a song like "Bleeding Love" has been number one on 18 charts, it's just a hideous mess. The see also links are much better and that's what see also sections are actually for. If I wanted to know what number one song came next, I'd probably want to know the whole year of number ones, so I'd look at the list of number ones. AnemoneProjectors 16:12, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
• Remove. Inconsistently used, biased, no added value. Get rid of them. – IbLeo^(talk) 17:09, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
• Strong Keep - I also find these very helpful and are easy to navigate from one page to another. EnDaLeCoMpLeX (contributions) • (let's chat) 17:50, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
• Keep - These are very useful to navigate through other articles. I don't see why this needs to be a big problem. --Caldorwards4 (talk) 18:22, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
• Remove How do these not violate WP:NPOV? They give undue weight to the fact they reached #1 on some charts. These articles will most likely have a chart section and/or table which summarizes all of its peak chart positions, but the succession boxes disproportionately hightlight on what charts it hit #1. More NPOV exists when editors want to see the succession of #1s for the chart they are interested in and ignoring other charts on which a song/album was #1. Speaking to the matter brought up by WesleyDodds, regardless of whether someone would ever do it, those who favor these succession boxes could not argue against them if they were to be done for songs/albums peaking at #2 or #3 because, again, that would violate NPOV. I would find them just as useful to navigate through; I would even find it useful if there were a section for "songs that charted at the same time", but it would be irrelevant to the article, as is linking to two other songs that just happened to reach #1 on the same chart. Is being #1 more notable than being #23? No, unless you think "Stuck with You" is more notable than "Born to Run". Then there is no need to further highlight its ranking then to just state it within the article.

Which takes me to another point. Being #1 is based entirely on a ranking. Objective as it may be, that's all it is. Succession boxes were designed for titles and honors and have been extended to awards. Titles, honors, and awards are typically given once a year and often quite longer, making the management of such successions much more reasonable and manageable than multiple music charts that come out once a week. No one would argue for the top-rated television shows or the top-grossing movies of each week to have succession boxes, yet these are just as sourceable, and I'm sure I would find the information just as useful.

I make no mention of "see also" sections providing lists to the charts a song/album reached #1 as this is not either/or argument (although such a list can be collapsed, too). The succession boxes should be gone regardless of any alternative. And what good are they if articles such as Thriller (album) and Nevermind don't have them. Is policy going to be set that they have to be on such articles, because, if not, the value of the boxes is lost right there. It really has to be all or nothing. For those who think it would be too much of a job to remove them all, I am your volunteer. :) --Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars (talk) 23:33, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

comment in my opinion they violate WP:NPOV in the same way that making number one chart listings bold violates WP:NPOV. -- Lil_℧niquℇ №1 ^[talk] 00:09, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

A good way to judge whether they violate NPOV is to look at what the reliable sources say. Do the reliable sources consider the #1 spot "special" in some way? Yes, they do. Sources like this devote entire sections to the #1 succession chronology. Do they devote similar sections to #2 hits? No, they do not. We should reflect what the reliable sources say, and the reliable sources say that yes, there is something more notable about the #1 spot than all the others. 28bytes (talk) 01:21, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

That's not succession, that's a chronology. Available in the same way on Wikipedia as lists such as List of number-one mainstream rock hits (United States). Same info and just as succinct, rather than providing the undue weight on individual articles. --Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars (talk) 02:14, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

In a day and age when songs from an album can chart without recieving official release our 'navigational aids' simply provide another way for users to mention how fantastic it is that a song reached number one on xyz charts. If someone wishes to make edits to a series of articles because they're number one singles then go to pages like List of number-one mainstream rock hits (United States) and navigate from there. But the assertion that somehow they aid navigation without breaking WP:NPOV or cause other issues is incorrect. A lot of people have spoken about how ... "it doesn't matter as you can collapse them" well it does matter because it still adds unnecessary size to a page and can increase loading time. Succession boxes were originally designed for lineage. -- Lil_℧niquℇ №1 ^[talk] 02:20, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

• Comment Remember how people used to bold the number one on discography charts, until we stopped the practice because it placed undue weight on the position? I feel the same principle applies here. WesleyDodds (talk) 09:32, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
• Remove per JohnFromPinckney. --Kleinzach 10:55, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
• Comment I haven't yet read an argument here that doesn't either have a simple technical solution or isn't flawed. The idea that a No. 1 isn't more notable than a No. 2 is bizarre. For the UK, number ones are commonly cited (especially Christmas ones) while the No. 2 slot is usually only mentioned in reference to very popular songs that only ever made No. 2 and not No. 1 (e.g. "Last Christmas" by Wham!). I believe such lists are notable. There is probably a case for more obscure charts not being notable and I wouldn't object to a white-list of charts that are listed by succession being established, perhaps using those that have clear references like the UK No. 1 list from the Official Chart Company. You also shouldn't forget that this survey is only taking the narrow view of a few editors, and not of the vastly larger number of casual Wikipedia browsers who may find this useful. I say this because I only stumbled across this discussion by chance as I was updating some of the recent UK No. 1 entries and normally I would have been completely oblivious of it, until such a time as someone decided to delete all the boxes and lose that information Gnu andrew (talk) 12:04, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
• Strong keep Of course #1 songs are more notable than lower-peaking singles. We have endless lists and categories of #1 songs and I don't see anybody arguing that they shouldn't exist or place undue weight. What makes them less objectionable? If #2 songs are just as notable, where are their lists and categories after all this time? There aren't any succession boxes for #2 songs, nor should there be. Number 1 is the pinnacle of the chart. I don't even know how succession boxes for #2 songs would work; would it merely be for songs that peaked at #2 or would it include songs that stopped at #2 on their eventual ascension to #1? There's a reason adding succession boxes to #2 songs has never been suggested. All 1,578 songs that reached #1 on Hot Country Songs have articles - and succession boxes, for that matter - but very few songs that peaked outside of the top ten have articles. In fact, many have been deleted or redirected because of their low peak position. I'm one of the users who does use them to navigate through articles and I've always found them to be beneficial. See also sections, in contrast, are a lot less user friendly and require a lot more clicking around for something that has been so easily achieved by navigation boxes for so many years. Many of the gaps Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars (talk · contribs) is complaining about were created by their own haphazard removal of succession boxes over the past few months from otherwise complete series. Succession boxes work in conjunction with the aforementioned lists and categories and should be left alone. Eric444 (talk) 14:28, 22 December 2010 (UTC)