Talk:Cyprus

Bias.

I genuinely beleive that this article heavilly slanted in the Greco-Cypriot's point of view. When I attempted to make the article more neutral, my edits were deleted (by a Greek, incidently). And, further-more, I was treated with patronization, and not with the dignity & respect a fellow Wikipedia deserves. Wikipedia clearly states that its articles must be unbiased, & Wikipedia is not a battleground, nor is it a propaganda journal.

For instance: - The article refers to the Republic of Cyprus as an "island nation", it is clearly no-more an island nation than Éire is. - The flag presented depicts the island of Cyprus in it, yet surely the 2004 neutral flag would be more appropriate? - The territory shown includes the land occupied by the RoC, TRNC, UN zone, & the UK bases; this does not constitute the true territory of the RoC. - The style of the article is not as though it was presenting the Republic of Cyprus as viewpoint/perspective, as it should; but as a fact, which it should not do.

Also, unrelatedly, the ethnicity descritions are incorrect: a Greek is, & only is, a national of the Hellenic Republic; & the Turkish are those, & only those, who are nations of Turkey. To describe one says they are Greco, & Turk, respectively. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.234.145.223 (talk • contribs)

I agree with the above. No real mention of EOKA's genocide of Turkish Cypriot villages in the South. Very slanted to the Greek perspective. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Popkid2002uk (talk • contribs) 10:10, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Popkid2002uk, you are free to discuss and edit the article. Create new sections on this talk page so the editors can address your concerns. HelenOfOz (talk) 11:46, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

I also think that we should include massacres committed by EOKA B. We cannot deny the truth about the atrocities committed by both sides during the war and it would be unbiased if we do so. But I disagree with the usage of proposed 2004 flag, as this was rejected anyway. The use of word 'island nation' also is a set thing. Cyprus has been referred to as 'Island nation' due to political reasons as it is accepted by international community that the Republic of Cyprus represent the entire island, therefore (even if not de facto correct) is an appropriate usage. In addition, territories shown on this page do clearly show the bases and territories not under effective control of the Republic (occupied north is shown with lighter green!). Furthermore, ethnicity is shown correctly. I rather prefer it to be called Turkish Cypriot and Greek Cypriot than just Greek or Turkish (that would also be politically biased). You can change anything you want but please do not make this article a battleground and keep editing and deleting everything the way you like it to be. Ngparos (talk) 21:07, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

This article is written really very one-sided. There are many thing to add. Specially all the barbarian activities committed by EOKA are somehow hidden. I think the people are not objective and try to keep this point of view of the article by not letting people editing the page. Splitting is a MUST, too. The arguments on this talk page prove it as well. I will be splitting the article in the next days.Serhan (talk) 17:13, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

You have no consensus to do that. See discussion below. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 21:05, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Recent editing of images

I am very suspicious that one of the recent series of image edits is being done by one individual using more than one IP. I don't have the capability to investigate but I hope somebody else can. Thanks. — Glenn L (talk) 08:13, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

if someone changes a photo that you do not like you always have to do everything possible to eliminate the other? nice wikipedia, I'm in charge and that's it, good .... keep it up ...--85.237.212.60 (talk) 08:19, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Topographic map of Cyprus

Hello, I have created a topographic map of Cyprus in SVG format. I have used public data but sometimes there are some inconsistencies. Would it be possible for someone to check if it is correct? Thanks --Ikonact (talk) 21:49, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Area figure

A recent edit clarified that the area given of 9,251 sqkm 'Includes Northern Cyprus, the UN buffer zone, and Akrotiri and Dhekelia'. This answers a question I had asked on the Talk:page. However, I have some further points:

1. what is the reference for the assertion that the area is of the island rather than the state? Given the confusion in the sources, it is not sufficient to rely on a single source giving a single figure with no context; there should hopefully be a reliable source which gives both the island and the state areas at the same time.
2. can the infobox also include the state area? That would be a better match for the area_rank statistic, which as it stands is meaningless.
3. the 2011 census figure excluded Northern Cyprus. What about the buffer zone and sovereign bases? jnestorius^(talk) 19:33, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

I already divided the area and populations into RoC, North and British bases but I cannot keep up with people constantly changing the information regarding their own political views. So I just gave up really. But it is true that if RoC claims politically that north belongs to the Republic, we should have information for the whole island, then divide it down to de facto information about south and north. Before people included north in the area but completely refused to include the northern population which I think is politically motivated. There should be detailed information regarding north, but if I do it, it will be changed soon Ngparos (talk) 13:28, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

In my experience, well-referenced statistics are less prone to edit-wars than unreferenced info or non-statistical, more "subjective" info. I don't really care which figure(s) get priority in the infobox, as all of them are available somewhere, with references. Maybe the infobox can crosslink to a subsection.

It's interesting that the Republic's statistical service's guide to districts marks the Turkish-occupied portion but makes no reference to the UK bases (or the UN buffer zone). It's not clear whether they were included in the 2011 census or not, or more generally to what extent the statistical service regards them as falling within its remit. jnestorius^(talk) 15:32, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

As far as I know, because the British bases do not officially make part of the Republic as the independence treaty signed with Britain clearly states that Cyprus is independent except two bases which belong to the UK. Therefore I am not sure if RoC would even count bases in any of its statistics simply because they are not part of the country. They still try to county North simply because it makes an integral part of the Republic even if it had de facto declared independence from Cyprus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ngparos (talk • contribs) 16:01, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

I understand that thinking; however, the map I linked to does not show the bases at all. It might be that the Republic of Cyprus government downplays their existence to some extent, allowing the view to persist that they are leased or temporarily granted to the UK by the Republic, as US overseas bases are, rather than totally external to the Republic. I'm not suggesting that the Republic officially takes such a view, merely that it is less than eager (for whatever reason) to prevent misconceptions. That's just an impression I have, which isn't directly relevant to the article, except that if true it might help explain why statistical breakdowns are hard to track down. jnestorius^(talk) 17:17, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I was actually going to point that out too before we had a random power cut. Yes, it is bizarre that bases are shown as Cypriot territory. And that is not the case. I have seen many maps and sources where bases were shown as Cypriot territory and I am sure that the government is fully aware it is not a temporary lease, it is simply given to the UK in the independence treaty. There might be contemporary disagreement in public on that subject but everyone is aware they are British bases. However, also true that due to that attitude, it may be difficult to track down sovereign base populations. As a Cypriot, I have not actually ever heard population in bases being considered as Cypriots. Maybe British sources can point out exact statistics on the bases? Ngparos (talk) 20:34, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

• Some contribution to the above discussion may be found at the US State Department's Cyprus entry where you can see a detailed map of Cyprus, in which you may distinguish the areas under the "control" (read it as sovereignty) of the "Republic of Cyprus" and also "the Turkish Cypriot-administered area" as well as the bases marked as (UK) and of course the UN Buffer Zone. We may be making an encyclopedia here but we do not even have such a detailed political map of Cyprus in our article. Oh, sorry I forgot that we still do not have an article for "Cyprus" but pretend that our "Republic of Cyprus" article covers all the island. I am sure the American diplomats do not look at WP to make their page... --E4024 (talk) 23:12, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Economy

The Greek Cypriot economy, in other words the economy of the so-called Republic of Cyprus is bankrupt. This is confirmed by the President who confessed "bailout is a necessary evil". See the latest news here in "Cyprus Mail". Let us leave aside fighting on the past of the so-called bi-communal republic and edit the "economy" section of this article to make it reflect the present situation. --E4024 (talk) 11:13, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

First reactions here. Where are all those editors rushing to compete at editing in ESC final or the Olympic Games or the UNGA Resolution on the State of Palestine? --E4024 (talk) 16:20, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Human rights - Edit request

A user recently cleaned human rights and militarization issues from the article. However, the fact that we like Greek Cyprus so much does not change the fact that there is human rights criticism against the Greek Cypriot Administration of South Cyprus. See here the news of Council of Europe criticism of the said Administration, at the Greek Cypriot newspaper [http://www.cyprus-mail.com/central-prisons/council-europe-concerned-over-central-prisons/20121206 Cyprus Mail. I am not writing myself about the human rights situation in South Cyprus, its militarization (within the Top 10 of the world) or its bankrupt and corrupt economy because am not prepared to be reverted by one of a group of biassed POV warriors each time I may write on any of those issues. I request impartial editors from outside the area -who are not intimidated by those nationalist warriors or not yet bored of this part of the world- to contribute to these issues in the article so that it may reflect better the real situation in the country. --E4024 (talk) 16:08, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Again the same rants against your fellow editors and about the militarisation of that tiny island, especially after the invasion by Turkey. I'm sure it would be preferred by Ankara and its military complex if Cyprus remained unarmed but what can you do. That's life. Even the Davids of today's world can try to defend themselves from the invading and partitioning Goliaths. And what do you think this tiny island, with a population less than that of many cities in Turkey, is going to do with its alleged "militarisation" which you try so hard to advertise? Invade Turkey? Reverse the effects of operation Attila? Please let us know. I mean propaganda can go so far. But you must also use logic and common sense if you want to make it credible and you appear to fail on the latter parts. As far as human rights show me a country in the world where prison overcrowding is not a problem. I'm sure if I cared to look I would find a lot more stuff about Turkey in this department including torture etc. As for the corrupt economy what can I say. Are you sure this is the only country with corruption in its economy? Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 16:41, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Cypriot Costume

Does anyone disagree with creating a sub-section named "Costume" within the "Culture" section regarding traditional Cypriot costume? This could include information about traditional male and female costume, such as the Vraka for the former and the Foustani for the latter. Kupraios (talk) 05:59, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

If this is more important and urgent than the economic crisis (see upstairs, if you have not heard of it) let's do it at once... --E4024 (talk) 11:42, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

We don't need everyone focusing on one thing at the same time. I have no interest in writing about the economy of Cyprus as I am not very knowledgeable of it. Indeed I have read news reports about it but I'm in no position to choose information of relevance regarding economics. Kupraios (talk) 20:50, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Split the article

Many things are discussed once and again in WP. No reason not to discuss once more such a logical split request. Cyprus is an island which has two sovereign states and two other sovereign territories on it. The most logical approach should be a split between the island article and the one about the so-called Republic of Cyprus. --E4024 (talk) 11:44, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

I dont see how splitting Cyprus is "logical", other to safeguard a strong Turkish Pov/claim, that Cyprus is not an island nation. 23x2 _φ 11:51, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

I also disagree with E4024. This would only impose the Turkish point of view which is that the Republic of Cyprus does not represent Cyprus as a whole island. Currently the only "so called" state is the so called Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus which in essence is nothing more than an unrecognized puppet state. 94.46.15.18 (talk) 12:27, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Dear IP user; your word selection of "puppet state" shows you are impartial on this issue and approach very objectively to the question. It is very useful to receive input from users who are not engaged with national positions. I would like to hear your opinions on how you see the existence of the two British sovereign bases (sovereign territories) separated from the rest of the island during the establishment of the Republic of Cyprus... --E4024 (talk) 12:45, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Ignoring your sarcasm,let me explain myself:

First of all, my wording is not that different from yours .("so-called Republic of Cyprus"). Secondly, a puppet state is a state that is is controlled by a foreign power. As much as the term "Puppet State" sounds not neutral and insulting, the so called Northern Cyprus is a puppet state. Its is solely depended on Turkey. Due to its lack of recognition, splitting the article would impose the Turkish POV (Turkey presents it as an independent legal separate state). The Republic of Cyprus, de jure, represents the whole island of Cyprus and as such it also joined the EU with the Northern part considered as not under the effective control of the Republic of Cyprus.Another proof RoC does not represent the entire island of Cyprus: Akrotiri and Dhekelia military bases of the United Kingdom and United Nations Buffer Zone in Cyprus. The total area of ​​these,% 7 The British sovereign bases have nothing to do with the discussion of splitting the article. If you do care what I believe about them, I believe that a EU member holding land of another one is entirely inappropriate. The big difference is that the sovereign bases are recognized territory of the United Kingdom in contrast with the so-called Northern Cyprus. 94.46.15.18 (talk) 13:09, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

And as the base areas are recognised as sovereign territories, as from the establishment of the "Repuclic of Cyprus" the island of Cyprus has never been sovereign on all of the island. Your words on TRNC I am ignoring for the moment. --E4024 (talk) 13:19, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

• I think we should open an article about the "island".--Rapsar (talk) 13:37, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

E4024, this attitude won't get you anywhere. The lack of arguments and your failed efforts to present the so called northern Cyprus as being independed make this discussion fruitless and there's no point on continue discussing with you. 94.46.15.18 (talk) 14:02, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Split: The country isn't coterminous with the island. It doesn't have de facto control over TRNC, whereas the SBAs and the UN Buffer Zone are recognised. The same model of Ireland and Micronesia should be followed. 14.0.208.113 (talk) 14:37, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Some notes:

1. Republic of Cyprus joined the EU as Cyprus
2. Republic of Cyprus is represented in cultural events like Eurovision as Cyprus
3. Republic of Cyprus is regarded in international football matches as Cyprus
4. It is regarded by the international community as Cyprus
5. The flag of the Republic of Cyprus has the whole island
6. The British bases are only military bases, and do not claim any title.
7. The Northern part is internationally unrecognized
8. CIA world factbook regards Cyprus's government as the Republic of Cyprus

From CIA world fact book on Cyprus:

• conventional long form: Republic of Cyprus
• conventional short form: Cyprus
• local long form: Kypriaki Dimokratia/Kibris Cumhuriyeti
• local short form: Kypros/Kibris
• note: the Turkish Cypriot community, which administers the northern part of the island, refers to itself as the "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus" or "TRNC" (Kuzey Kibris Turk Cumhuriyeti or KKTC)

source: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/cy.html 94.46.15.18 (talk) 15:48, 26 December 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.46.15.18 (talk • contribs)

Really hard to understand how people are trying to keep the article as it is. Almost half of the island is ruled by another government, Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. It is very easy to understand. There has to be a disambiguation page where you can go to island page as well. In fact 'island page' should be the default one when you search for 'Cyprus'. It's first meaning is its geographical expression. Please split the article. Serhan (talk) 16:37, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

I completely agree with 94.46.15.18 (talk · contribs) who advances really persuasive and coherent arguments. The IP arguments are in line with the previous discussion on this talkpage which has also rejected the split proposal before and nothing has changed since then. The arguments about the British bases etc. are not significant enough and have been discussed thoroughly and rebutted before and the rest of the world recognises and names Cyprus as Cyprus as the CIA handbook demonstrates. This is just another tendentious attempt at imposing a certain POV and is completely unacceptable. You cannot win arguments by reopening rejected proposals hoping people will get tired debating the same points. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 18:45, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

• Split The IP sock arguments are not valid at all. It is enough to look at this page to see how WP treats islands. Arguments like "the EU accepted Cyprus as a whole" are ridiculous not only considering the status of the TRNC but also looking at the discussions in UK about leaving the EU. When or if UK leaves the EU, the sovereign bases will continue to be EU territory? Patent nonsense. Again: The "Republic of Cyprus" was established on part of the Island of Cyprus, from the beginning; as the UK bases are "sovereign territory". It is not necessary or relevant if those territories have a government, president, flag, whatsoever. Split the island; "calling the ROC as Cyprus or not" is another issue. The Republic of Ireland is shortly called Ireland but does not occupy all the space of the island in WP. --E4024 (talk) 19:03, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

• I have warned you before not to use the edit summary field to attack other users. But you did it again: Revision as of 19:03, 26 December 2012 E4024 (→‎Split the article: Enough with irrelevant "political" arguments. You only forgot to add "Christian".). Please stop any more demonstrations of your fundamentalist attitude. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 19:38, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Split the article: Arbitrary break

• Do not Split Ireland is split into Ireland and Northern Ireland which are both recognized. North Cyprus IS NOT. The bases are ONLY for military purposes. The currency there is the EURO(not GBP) and one can drive without passport control. The fact that the UN and EU regard the Republic of Cyprus as Cyprus and is presented as such in social events is enough to prove that splitting the article is baseless.

Afterall, the UN consensus 550(1984) recognizes the sovereignty of the Republic of Cyprus on Cyprus 94.46.15.18 (talk) 19:24, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

I completely agree with your very well made points anonymous. The mere mention of Ireland and Northern Ireland shows the inherent POV of these editors, comparing and putting on equal footing two recognised and legitimate countries with the puppet state of TRNC. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 20:01, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

I also agree with 94.46.15.18. Actually instead of splitting the article of Cyprus, i think we should consider merging Northern Cyprus article to this one. Britannica and CIA Factbook have one entry. 23x2 _φ 20:10, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

I think the "puppet" could be the Blocked IP above: Even though they are blocked I need to remind them something, here, from the Sovereign Base Areas Administration official site: "You should also be aware that it is an offence for persons other than “recognised residents” to live in the SBAs for more than 28 days in any period of 12 months, except in accordance with a permit issued under that Ordinance. Again, you may apply for a certificate of recognised residence or a permit, but the Administration only rarely consents to granting these.". Be careful, as neither the UK nor the Sovereign Bases Area are part of the Schengen Visa Regime you may face difficulties if you violate the above; I mean even if you are a citizen of Greece or another Schengen country. (This Announcement is dated 30 May 2012. Since then the Civil Government of the Administration has not made any agreement with any of the other two Governments in Cyprus for a Schengen-type Free Circulation Area, right? So also the citizens of the TRNC and the RoC should be careful.) This may also be helpful to understand the "Cyprus" case, BTW. --E4024 (talk) 22:56, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

• Recognition isn't the only criteria. We may refuse to recognise it's legality, but we cannot pretend it doesn't exist. The SBAs of the UK aren't part of the EU. Visitors can enter Andorra, San Marino and Monaco freely and use euro coins and notes there too and this doesn't make these countries part of the EU. 14.0.208.87 (talk) 22:20, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

• The WP:COMMONNAME for the Republic of Cyprus is overwhelmingly Cyprus. We are not here to invent new onomatology based on original research. Also the bases are insignificant compared to the total area of the island. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 22:36, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

• It works equally fine even if the articles are named Cyprus (country) and Cyprus (island), or Cyprus and Cyprus (island). Vatican City, San Marino, Andorra, Liechtenstein, Monaco are all insignificant and should be ignored, if we are to apply the same scale. 14.0.208.87 (talk) 22:59, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

• Against splitting I think that since there is an article concerning the North and the Republic of Cyprus is usually refered to as Cyprus(at least here) no splitting should take place.190.114.224.20 (talk) 22:42, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

• So are you pretending the TRNC simply doesn't exist, or just something fictional? 14.0.208.87 (talk) 22:59, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

• Well, thats how we refer to the island here(refer to as Republic of Cyprus)... I'm not saying the North is fictional but undoubtly Cyprus and Republic of Cyprus are two equivalent terms in the outside world and that would be the appropriate way to present it.(in my opinion ofcourse) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.114.224.20 (talk) 23:11, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

• Against splitting . Just so that its clear. 23x2 _φ 23:03, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

• Pro-splitting I strongly support E4024 in this issue. This work had to be done before. Here,there are two undeniable truth. Republic of Cyprus does not represent the whole island as Cyprus. There are separate de facto state in the north of the island. Recognized or unrecognized by the the international community,is not important. Because,Northern Cyprus doesn't need this splitting, already it has separate article. Another proof RoC does not represent the entire island of Cyprus: Akrotiri and Dhekelia military bases of the United Kingdom and United Nations Buffer Zone in Cyprus !! The total area of ​​these: 7% and Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus 35%,remainder 58% is managed by Republic of Cyprus government!! I think,it is not a political issue be discussed. Unfortunately,some Greek users are looking with biased, subjective and nationalist concepts to subject.

But the situation is completely geographically.Official name of Greek Cyprus government Repuclic of Cyprus See: WP:ON & WP:NCGN Cyprus an island in the eastern Mediterranean Sea Britannica. That to reconcile with the European Union membership or Eurovision Song Contest, extremely ridiculous.There are many examples of this.

• Island of Ireland --> Republic of Ireland (83%) and United Kingdom (17%) with Northern Ireland
• Island of Borneo --> Indonesia (73%), Malaysia (26%) and Brunei (1%)
• Island of Hispaniola --> Dominican Republic (65%) and Haiti (35%) For more, List of divided islands Among these, only the expression of the island of Cyprus does not have a separate meaning.--Maurice (talk) 00:44, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose splitting First line of the article from above (List of divided islands) is "This is a list of islands whose land is divided by one or more international borders." The islands mentioned above are completely different cases internationally accepted. 46.21.74.234 (talk) 01:04, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

• Pro-Splitting<duplicate !vote by user:Sbasturk> Because TRNC is not internationally recognized, you just ignore half of the island? http://media-3.web.britannica.com/eb-media/84/79884-004-B27AF93D.jpg But the reason for splitting is not only political but actually the geographical meaning of the island. But some people are strictly trying to hide TRNC and everything about it. Preventing the split is just because of this. Serhan (talk) 04:28, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

comment It is not "the island" which is de facto divided, but the Republic of Cyprus. The international community regards it as an island nation see 550. Quote from 550 "Gravely concerned about the further secessionist acts in the occupied part of the Republic of Cyprus". The republic of Cyprus has de jure sovereignty over the entire island, less the UK military bases which the Republic gives to the UK with its Treaty of establishment. TRNC has its own article, as things stand. How can you argue to split the article in order to not ignore TRNC ? 23x2 _φ 06:23, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Comment on the above comment - Does that resolution say that the two sovereign British territories reserved (separated from the former colony's overall territory) on the island at the day of the establishment of the "Republic of Cyprus" also belong to that Republic? --E4024 (talk) 11:56, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Comment on the above comment No need to say that. The legal context for the existence of the UK bases is non other than the Treaty of Establishment of Cyprus. If Cyprus is non existent for some reason as you insinuate (if the Treaty of Establishment becomes null and void) then there is no legal framework for the UK bases. It is the existence of Cyprus which safeguards the existence of the UK bases. Feel free to read the Treaty of Establishment and its annexes. 23x2 _φ 12:16, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

"Establishment of Cyprus"? Hmmm. That agreement was made with God apparently... --E4024 (talk) 14:48, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

• Against splitting-- Absolutely against splitting. Cyprus is represented by the republic of Cyprus. The arguments above are more than enough110.139.119.110 (talk) 09:34, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your first ever contribution to WP but we are not making an intergovernmental meeting here; we are writing an encyclopedia. --E4024 (talk) 11:56, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

• Against splitting -- Yeah sure the US has bases in Qatar. Lets split the Qatar article as well. Oh wait, it also has bases in Philipines. Lets splitt it as well. And in Canada. Lets split Canada as well. What about guandanamo isalnd. Lets split it as well. But wait a second.... In every country embassies are considered territories of their respective governments. Lets split every country in the world according to the number of embassies it has. Its funny how people are trying to justify an attempt to show that a partially recognized country is legal.......177.36.243.77 (talk) 12:15, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your first ever contribution to WP. I think you have some confusion: 1. Embassies are territory of the receiving state. (Believe me, I made a master's on international law.) 2. We are not talking about bases but "sovereign territories" in Cyprus, which have never been part of the Republic of Cyprus. Remember, the UK government promised to give part of that sovereign territory to the proposed "United Republic of Cyprus" but the Greek Cypriots rejected the establishment of a United Republic. --E4024 (talk) 12:59, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Comment on the above comment E4024 you have said 3 times the same thing. Saying it over and over doesn't give validity to your pov understanding of the Treaty of Establishment. 23x2 _φ 13:11, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

• Pro-splitting -- Please, we need to be a little objective and impartial in this regard. This issue must be removed completely from politics. Thoughts to impose anachronistic prejudices and offer an extremely useless political arguments is invalid. Yes,Turkish Northern Cyprus officially is not recognized in the international arena. This has nothing to do with the division of the article. Claim of attempt to show that a partially recognized country is legal,is extremely reflects a point of view unfounded. That refuse users who, actually,they argues that the status of Northern Cyprus is the only justification at their hands. They offer with reasons and arguments, even contradict themselves.--Maurice (talk) 17:34, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
• Against-splitting -- Another attempt by Turkish Propagana.¬¬¬ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.153.48.67 (talk) 18:34, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

• Interesting enough the same arguments such as "insignificant", "people don't understand", "people who are unfamiliar will be confused" are all repeated at Talk:Taiwan#Split. 14.0.208.97 (talk) 19:24, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
• Against-splitting I do not understand why this split is necessary. The Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus has its own article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.53.160.108 (talk) 19:59, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Exactly. The British bases also have their articles and their sovereign territories. So Cyprus is not home to only the "Republic of Cyprus". This is why we need a separate article for the island itself. --E4024 (talk) 20:06, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Comment TRNC is considered by the international community as occupied area of the Republic of Cyprus. The bases as explained 5 times so far are there based of the Treaty of Establishment of Cyprus. Thats why Cyprus is an island nation.23x2 _φ 21:42, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

• The basic question is, does Cyprus the island get an article separate from Cyprus the republic? I say yes, split the article, if only for the fact that the geopolitical situation is amazingly complex on that little island and having an overview article, if only as a glorified disambiguation for the polities that exist on it, would be very useful. There are three different geopolitical entities overlapping on this island and it makes sense to treat them separately as well as together. And, fundamentally: If the island were named something other than "Cyprus" it would already have its own article. The only thing keeping them wedded is the name. Now, some countries can get away with that, like the argument over whether or not Taiwan (island) and the Republic of China should be the same. But the situation with Taiwan vs RoC is vastly simpler than the situation with Cyprus vs Republic of Cyprus vs TRNC vs United Nations vs British SBAs. The only sane option is to split. It has nothing to do with recognition, and everything to do with simplifying an extremely complex geopolitical situation for our readers. --Golbez (talk) 20:28, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
• I disagree with that Golbez. Moving the same words in separated articles will, on the contrary add ambiguity and complexity to the readers. It just takes a paragraph to explain to the reader the geopolitical situation of the island nation.

The Republic of Cyprus has de jure sovereignty over the island of Cyprus and its surrounding waters, except for the British Overseas Territory of Akrotiri and Dhekelia, administered as Sovereign Base Areas. However, the Republic of Cyprus is de facto partitioned into two main parts; the area under the effective control of the Republic, comprising about 59% of the island's area, and the Turkish-controlled area in the north, calling itself the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus and recognized only by Turkey, covering about 36% of the island's area. The international community considers the North as occupied territory of the Republic of Cyprus.

1. UK bases on the island nation - area of which provided for de jure by its Treaty of Establishment
2. Occupied areas of the island nationUNSC Res 550 in the north
3. UN buffer zone to buffer Turkish hostilities from the north - area of which provided for by the Island Nation

Whats the amazingly confusing part? 23x2 _φ 10:51, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

• Question: Well, I get what you mean but the SBAs are just military areas. People can go through and there are no checks(If you lived near believe me you would know). The buffer zone is just considered as territory of the Republic of Cyprus that has been given to the United Nations for peace keeping.(Thats the definition). Furthermore the North is still considered occupied territory of the Republic of Cyprus. By splitting the article wouldn't it imply taking the side of Turkey that the island is actually officially divided by questioning the sovereignty of the RoC island ? What's wrong with leaving the article as it is? I think that the reason for suggesting splitting the article with the SBAs as a pretext is quite obvious. It is to show that the North is a separate country. The current state of the article states that there are SBAs and a northern part giving a link to it. It reflects the real life situation. The RoC and the areas which are not under its control such as the North and the bases which were part of the establishment of the RoC.190.151.22.98 (talk) 20:56, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
  • Not in the least. It's simply saying, "Cyprus" is a very complex issue so here is an overview explaining it. I don't see how this is conferring legitimacy to anyone, it's simply a tool to help our readers understand a complex issue. --Golbez (talk) 21:04, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

• On balance split, but it's a close call. I hadn't previously thought this, but recently thinking it through WP:COMMONNAME points to this. Firstly, the legal position, IMHO, is not relevant. Looking at usage in English-language media, the word Cyprus (at least when it is first used in a piece of writing or news story), almost always refers to the entire island as a geographical concept, not as a political entity. When the political entity is referred to it is almost always "Republic of Cyprus" or "Greek Cyprus" or cognates thereof in order to distinguish it from the North. I don't think there is much doubt that the overwhelming international position is that there is only one legally recognised state on the island (excepting the British territories). But the name of the article (because of WP:COMMONNAME) should be entirely separate from the legal issue, and mustn't be seen as legitimising either point of view. Muddying the two has led to some muddy thinking. DeCausa (talk) 21:01, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

• But based on the arguments above, in international sports it is always Cyprus, in Eurovision it is Cyprus, in the EU it is Cyprus,the flag and the emblem is the whole island, CIA world fact book has Cyprus as the Republic of Cyprus(also mentioning the north) and the SBAs as separate "country" choice. Just like the current ssituation in wikipedia. The current article also says everything about geography and history of the island. I guess WP: COMMONNAME would be Cyprus.Splitting it would serve no real purpose.190.151.22.98 (talk) 21:13, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
  • There are no fewer than four distinct political entities with varying levels of de facto or de jure control over at least part of the island. There should be an overview article separate from those to explain the situation. --Golbez (talk) 21:16, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
  • The overview article is the Cyprus article because it is an island nation. Early on it explains the situation with links to the separate articles of all the political entities. I am using your term "political entities" although i think its incorrect but the explanation may well be for another discussion.23x2 _φ 10:59, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

• (Belated for edit conflict) Let me try to respond to that: I already said before that we are not at an international meeting discussing the accreditation of the TRNC delegates. We are writing an encyclopedia and that is it. Even as I see unnecessary, let me refer you to the sovereign territories called British Bases which even have their "customs administration" and "police". Read well especially the last two articles. You will see that there is another "sovereignty" on part of the Island of Cyprus. (Only for whipping brains: Even if there were no Cyprus question at all, -maybe some day, when the "United Republic of Cyprus" is established-, still the sovereignty over the island would be split, between that of this Republic and UK.) --E4024 (talk) 21:20, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

• Irrelevant, i have explained to you multiple times about the UK bases. Cyprus is the shortname of the Republic of Cyprus. Its WP:COMMONNAME is Cyprus. This is how it is used in Encyclopedias. Wikipedia is not and it will not become Turkey's office of foreign affairs. Get over it 23x2 _φ 21:34, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
  • Is your argument purely name based? If not, then stop giving that such prominence in your statements. You make it sound like, if the island for whatever reason had a different name than "Cyprus", you'd be 100% fine with a separate article for said island. --Golbez (talk) 21:39, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
    • And FYI, everyone needs to stop accusing other people of nationalism, even if it is obvious. You could find a few dozen people here who would agree that I am far from having the glory of the Turkish people as my highest concern. --Golbez (talk) 21:40, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

• Here the UN refer to the Republic of Cyprus as "Cyprus" interchangeably i just got a random recent resolution.
• Here Britannica refers to the Republic of Cyprus and Cyprus the island interchangeably, having one article one entry. Britannica actually states against the original research that E4024 repeats that the Republic of Cyprus is recognized as the de jure government of the whole island.
• Here the Cia Factbook refers to Cyprus the island and the Republic of Cyprus interchangeably being one entry / one article.

I have provided 3 reliable sources that treat Cyprus the island and Cyprus the government interchangeably, all three go against the suggestion to split the article. On which reliable sources is the split suggestion based? Is it perhaps based on original research? If we are here to write a reliable encyclopedia then let get serious 23x2 _φ 22:01, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

• • Since when does a disambiguation/explanation split need reliable resources? --Golbez (talk) 22:13, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) From the US Department of State website:

COUNTRY DESCRIPTION: Cyprus is an island nation in the eastern Mediterranean Sea. Since 1974, Cyprus has been divided between a government-controlled area, comprising the southern two-thirds of the island, and a northern third administered by Turkish Cypriots. The United States does not recognize the “Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus,” nor does any country other than Turkey. Facilities for tourism in Cyprus are highly developed. Cyprus joined the European Union in 2004. Read the Department of State’s Background Notes on Cyprus for additional information.

It is clear: Cyprus is an island nation. Note the sentence: Cyprus joined the European Union in 2004 No "Republic", no "Island", just "Cyprus". Period. Are we going to second-guess the United States Department of State? Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 22:09, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

• No one reasonably disputes that Cyprus is an island nation; I fail to see how that is relevant to having an overview article of the island's complicated geopolitical situation. And they are welcome to use whatever name they want; the name of Ireland is "Ireland" but that doesn't mean it's identical to the island of the same name. Guys, if your only argument is that the country has the same name as the island, that's a really, really poor argument, so maybe you should rely less on it. --Golbez (talk) 22:13, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

• I think you misunderstood my edit above. The point is everyone is using "Cyprus" in place of the state and the island and vice versa without making a distinction onomatologically. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 22:19, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

From the Cyprus country profile on BBC:

Soon afterwards the EU invited Cyprus to become a member.

Note the sentence: EU invited Cyprus to become a member. No "Republic", no "Island", just "Cyprus". Period. Are we going to second-guess the BBC? Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 22:21, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

"In November 2010, Ireland and the EU agreed..." I wonder if the BBC is referring to the island or the country? Or, is this a case, like Cyprus, where the names are the same? And, were they not the same, would we even be having this argument? (the answer is no, by the way, there would already be separate articles) The difference between the two of course is that the de jure borders of Cyprus are coterminous with the landscape of the island, but there are three other de facto polities there that make it a complicated subject, worthy of separate handling. --Golbez (talk) 22:25, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

I have more:

From the European Union Cyprus Year of EU entry:

Cyprus: 2004 Capital city: Nicosia Total area: 9 250 km² Population: 0.8 million Currency: Member of the eurozone since 2008 (€) Schengen area: Not a member of Schengen

Note the entry name: Cyprus. No "Republic", no "Island", just "Cyprus". Period. Are we going to second-guess the European Union? Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 22:27, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

You did this knowing I would paste the same about Ireland, right? Why did you even bother? You shouldn't have, and I won't. You know what it says about Ireland. Again, you are making this about the name and the name alone, which is a horrible argument. Be better at this. --Golbez (talk) 22:31, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict × 3x)Are you accusing me of being able to foretell your actions? That's a good one. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις}

Yes, because it was exceptionally obvious. "I'll paste something where someone calls the country "Cyprus" which is also the name of the island it's on!" "Well I'll paste the same, but for Ireland, thus disproving your point." "Then I shall do the exact same thing and that will solve the matter!" "Rinse, repeat." In other words, you were bad at this. --Golbez (talk) 23:04, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

No, you are bad at understanding the concepts involved here. If you want to disambiguate anything do it by using an article title other than "Cyprus". The name "Cyprus" is already reserved for the island and the state. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 23:09, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose on splitting: I really don't see ANY reason for splitting the article apart from creating controversy,endless edit wars and endless talks. The article as it is is clear. The Cyprus problem is a political and a name dispute. Why split it? What are the advantages? Would it be clearer if the geography and history was cut and pasted on a new article instead of being as is? Doesn't the article mention and connect to the sovereign bases and North Cyprus? How would a reader benefit? Also, a look on the changes shows the edit wars taking place on this article. I would suggest leaving it protected indefinitely to prevent vandalism and remove the tag to prevent endless talks like the current. As an administrator, Golbez this would be the best move in my point of view. Leave the article as it has been for so long and prevent further disputes and vandalism. A consensus for the name will never be reached from what I see.

Why open a new round of vandalism, huge talks about where the North should be on the new article like first or second or third?And if the Greek side is more described on the general or why the Turkish is less described? Just leave it as it is which as Dr.K said is globally accepted. JCA100 (talk) 22:46, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Another example:

<ref name="MeltonBaumann2010">{{cite book|author1=J. Gordon Melton|author2=Martin Baumann|title=Religions of the World, Second Edition: A Comprehensive Encyclopedia of Beliefs and Practices|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=v2yiyLLOj88C&pg=PA842|accessdate=27 December 2012|date=21 September 2010|publisher=ABC-CLIO|isbn=978-1-59884-204-3|pages=842–|quotation=Cyprus, an island nation in the middle of the Mediterranean Sea, was home to one of the oldest civilizations in the Mediterranean Basin. Today, its 3,600 square miles of land are inhabited by 793,000 people, the great majority of Greek ...}}</ref>

Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 22:54, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Another example:

<ref name="JD2007">{{cite book|author=Robert Bauman, JD|title=The Complete Guide to Offshore Residency, Dual Citizenship and Second Passports|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=Tm2lV311zpoC&pg=PA362|accessdate=27 December 2012|date=1 January 2007|publisher=The Sovereign Society|isbn=978-0-9789210-9-5|pages=362–|quote=History. Cyprus is a developed island nation, south of Turkey, the third-largest island in the Mediterranean Sea (after Sicily and Sardinia)}}</ref>

Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 23:00, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Again, I don't think anyone reasonably disputes that Cyprus is an island nation, and that there is a country whose short name is Cyprus that has fully recognized de jure borders that are coterminous with the landscape of an island named Cyprus (and, naturally, smaller surrounding islands, as befits any island nation). There just happens to be the other three de facto powers on the island that make it a complicated enough matter to be dealt with separately. --Golbez (talk) 23:04, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

In fact I agree. I am not opposed to creating a new article based on such geopolitical analysis as long as it has any other title except "Cyprus" or "Cyprus island". Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 23:23, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

And so on:

<ref name="Usa2009">{{cite book|author=Usa Ibp Usa|title=Cyprus Company Laws and Regulations Handbook|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=_9Gbyy8WTzoC&pg=PA28|accessdate=27 December 2012|date=1 September 2009|publisher=Int'l Business Publications|isbn=978-1-4330-6969-7|pages=28–|quote=COUNTRY DESCRIPTION: Since 1974, Cyprus, a developed Mediterranean island nation, has been divided de facto into a government-controlled area comprising the southern two-thirds of the island, and a northern third, (the self-declared ...}}</ref>

Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 23:07, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Golbez , this is crazy. The name dispute It will NEVER reach a consensus. At least not until the Cyprus Dispute is solved... Just leave it as it has been for the past so many years please. I know that you don't get any side's side but please see that this will never end. JCA100 (talk) 23:09, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

The naming issue and the splitting issue are different issues, we would do well to not confuse them. --Golbez (talk) 23:33, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm not aware how informed you are but officially Cyprus claims the title of the island and North Cyprus supports that it doesn't. Ultimately, it is a naming issue and by splitting the article is like

taking one side's side. Note that this discussion has been opened in the past and the result was not to split it. Why don't you just close it and live as it has been for the past 8 years?JCA100 (talk) 23:42, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Oppose splitting the article Per all the comments against the split in this thread and all others. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 23:27, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Golbez, i have read your comments over and over. Splitting makes no sense. The people of Cyprus (at least the Greeks) have been around since the 2nd millennium BC. Through out their history, they went through wars, conquerors etc and in 1960 they created a republic. What would be the content of the separate suggested article "Cyprus (island)"? About the flora and fiona? About the trees, the bees or the pygmy hippos of Cyprus? Ofcourse not, it would be about its people, and their story. Well the history of the people of Cyprus is continued with the republic of Cyprus. The military bases and the status of north Cyprus are sections in this article along with the buffer zone. What is there to warrant the separation of this article? Could you please explain? 23x2 _φ 23:38, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Also, the island and the Republic of Cyprus [de jure] are one. The Republic of Cyprus is an island country, separating the article would be misleading to the audience 23x2 _φ 23:47, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

I fully agree. In fact the international community uses the term "Cyprus" interchangeably to refer to the island and the state. By inventing any other awkward onomatology locally in Wikipedia we are going against accepted onomatology and against our own policies of NPOV, NOR and WP:COMMONNAME to name just a few. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 00:06, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Pro-Splitting Here an example why we need another article on the geographical island. Let's take a look here:Ottoman Cyprus. The reader wants to know, what's the island of Cyprus. Voila! There is no link there at all, cause there is no article about the island but only a government on it! There are many such articles which need such connection to the island of the Cyprus. But because of some NPOV-loss nationalists, the readers of WP can't access the information they are looking for. I don't refuse that Cyprus is an island country. But it is not an island itself! @23x2 By the way, nobody asks how long the Greeks were on the island please don't confuse the main point of discuss. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sbasturk (talk • contribs) 00:11, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

The above argument is completely wrong. There is a history section on the current page. The split suggestion is anyway not to split it into Historical eras and the reader wouldn't benefit at all. On the contrary, on the current page, clicking on the history link takes the reader directly to the history sectionJCA100 (talk) 00:17, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

I have nothing to do with the history. I just want to be able to link that article to the island of Cyprus, where we need it. Please take a look here as well. The 'Cyprus' article from the second biggest WP. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zypern We nees such a geographical island article and a disambiguation page for the countries on it. Serhan (talk) 00:21, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

@ Sbasturk I dont get your point. What is the question here? The reader wants to know, what's the island of Cyprus What do you mean? Whats the island? What you want to link it to specifically. What is the content you are looking this to have? 23x2 _φ 00:27, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

@23x2 Sorry if I couldn't express my thoughts cleanly because of my poor English. But if you take a look to the German article I've given, you'll easily be able to understand it. The idea is very simple and is very easy to understand by someone like you, of course only if you want to. Look this is an island and not the Republic of Cyprus: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/81/Cyprus_lrg.jpg "An island is any piece of sub-continental land that is surrounded by water.". Serhan (talk) 00:37, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

No problem Serhan, i am here to help. i wouldnt say you are a single purpose account, but for how long have you been trying to add a link from Ottoman Cyprus to "a geographical island article". Because from your contributions i see you have never edited either article before this discussion. Perhaps you should explain what content is that you are looking for, and i will try to help you, perhaps you did not search correctly or you missed it. Please let me know, the content you are looking for23x2 _φ 00:40, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your kindness. But basically you just don't want to understand. FYI: I'm on WP since 2006 and this is my only account ever. It's not true that this account is a single purpose account like yours. By the way I just looked up on your user talk page in WP and seen the message by an admin: Salvio_giuliano "Hello 23x2 and welcome to Wikipedia. I'm sorry to have to inform you that edits such as this constitute disruptive editing. You seem to be pushing your point of view in violation of different Wikipedia's policies, namely WP:NPOV and WP:V. Wikipedia is not a soapbox and it should never be used to promote your personal beliefs. Please stop." Because of this I don't want to discuss this simple concern with you to save my time, as obviously you always have been a NPOV-loss user. My final expression from what I've seen is that this article MUST be split just like in the German WP Serhan (talk) 00:47, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

So there is nothing you want to link to anything, you simply wanted to make a point and you just blew it. And now your reverted to the oldest trick in the book which is shifting the subject matter. Btw all of a sudden your English are so much better. Impressive. An admin to intervene here please 23x2 _φ 00:52, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Serhan , all the information contained in the german version is basically what is included in the english version of the RoC. There is nothing more. In fact, the english version (the one under discussion) contains even more information. Previously you argued that an example user might want to find info related to Ottoman Cyprus era. In the German version, it does not exist whereas in the current English version, Ottoman Cyprus is a section. By splitting the article the information would be reduced and not increased since the current article is quite complete and information would just be taken away and transferred to another article. Splitting it serves no purpose other than causing long talks and conflicts like now JCA100 (talk) 01:08, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

JCA100 I didn't mention that a user wants to find info related to Ottoman Cyprus era. What I was saying was that, a user on this Ottoman Cyprus article cannot find any connection to the Cyprus island itself. "Island of Cyprus" is written in the very first sentence but you can't click it here as current Cyprus page has nothing to do with this real meaning which is the real island itself and not governments. It is also not about which WP has more information. But which WP does it in right way. Splitting this article will not cause loss of information but simplicity to reach to information. All other islands have such a own article for the real meaning without the governments but the Cyprus not. Why WP should give you this privilege.. German WP has it for Cyprus in the right way to my way of thinking: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zypern Serhan (talk) 01:20, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

I will repeat the question again, this time in bold, lets see if Serhan sees it. Sbasturk what content would you like this new imaginary article to have?23x2 _φ 01:26, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, still not convinced. What you have just said about presenting the country and not including the governments could be argued to be done in Greece, UK,USA,Turkey and every country. Usually, when you open the wikipedia page of a country it is about the government, not the geography or History.JCA100 (talk) 01:28, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Serhan Geography of Cyprus by the way is a separate article. here you go Geography of Cyprus. Thanks 23x2 _φ 01:11, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Serhan, much of the Geography of Cyprus and Ottoman Cyprus is included in the Cyprus article. The article you mention is the detailed long one which anyway is too big too fit if the article is split. Splitting it will only transfer part of the current's version contents to the newJCA100 (talk) 01:18, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

I think it is quite clear(see below) what the WP:COMMONNAME is in this case. Going against a so widely used term leads to nothing but confusion.JCA100 (talk) 13:48, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose Hi all. I havent contributed to Wiki in a long, long time but seeing where the cabal is pushing things i couldnt resist. The argument brought forth is makes absolutly no sense. Its complicated they have said to explain the situation of Cyprus in this article, therefore they suggest to create two different articles to explain the situation there. The same words that will explain the situation in 100 different article can explain the situation in this single article. In the article of Cyprus, all information (if there is something not already covered) may be included, nicely organised in sections for all to follow. Excuses such as "too complicated" has nothing to do with writting an complete article. Aristovoul0s (talk) 14:33, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

I just think it would be easier for our readers for the overview to consider all four entities on the island, rather than making three of them literal footnotes to one of them. Yes, I know the Republic is the de jure country of the entire island, and globally recognized as such, but there are three de facto entities competing with them and I think it would be useful to have a glorified disambiguation article handling this. I don't know if it should be about the island itself per se, with regard to geography and general history, but it should involve the demography and modern political history.

There is no other island in the world that has anywhere near this complex a situation, and if the island were named something other than "Cyprus" we would already have an article on it. Whether or not this article should be placed at [[Cyprus]], I don't know. In fact, probably not; the Republic is obviously the least surprising destination for anyone looking for Cyprus. But I do think there should be an overview article handling the geopolitics of the island separately from that of the Republic. --Golbez (talk) 14:26, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Firstly i would like to thank you for your reply.

I appreciate the fact you took the time to reply and explain your thoughts. Your efforts -if i understood correctly- are directed towards adequately explaining to the readers the "geopolitics of the island". I understand that a reader who is not familiar with the subject needs to be explained (sometimes spoonfed) certain facts. Sometimes, that's what an encyclopedia has to be. However, i disagree with your approach for many reasons, i will explain one. This is what i think; at the core of my disagreement lays the fact that Cyprus (the Republic) and Cyprus (the island) are one, hence island nation. I know you have read this before and you agree with it as you have said in your prologue. However you took exactly the opposite stance in your epilogue, basically contradicting yourself with what you have said originally, by saying: "there should be an overview article handling the geopolitics of the island separately from that of the Republic." geopolitics of the republic. By saying geopolitics of the island, whats implied is that the geopolitics of the island is a separate subject matter from the geopolitics of the republic, which is in clearly not the case. A fallacy. A consistent statement (with your agreement that Cyprus is an island nation) would be the geopolitics of the island-nation. As thats what the island is, an island nation, as you have said you agreed with, that the island and the republic are one. If Cyprus (the Republic) and Cyprus (the island) are one (an island nation) then it removes the argument of creating a separation to explain the geopolitics of the former separately from the latter. I do agree that a reader looking for Cyprus in Wikipedia, will almost certainly be looking for the Republic, and that strengthens the argument against the split. I will just leave it to here, and see your response so that this is a dialogue and not a monologue. So, to sum up i will ask you this, Do you see the fallacy in the message you wrote to me? Thanks 23x2 _φ 17:09, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

The geopolitics of the island are different from the geopolitics of the republic. The island is a landmass shared among four powers in overlapping fashions; the Republic would hardly say it shares itself with three other entities, would it? The Republic of Cyprus is an island nation, generally (not exactly, due to associated islands also being included) coterminous with the landmass of the island of Cyprus. That landmass also contains three other distinct polities with varying levels of de jure and de facto control. If the island were named anything other than Cyprus, or if Cyprus had another major island like Malta does, there would be an article on the island itself. I just think it's somewhat unfair to treat the SBAs, Green Line, and TRNC as subtopics of the Republic, which is what we do if the article on the Republic is the only article we have on the island's geopolitics. (Cyprus dispute is a possible alternative, but has far too much detail; all I want is a quick overview. Hell, maybe I should write it myself to give us something to work from, but unfortunately at the moment the only computer I have real access to Wikipedia from is work and I don't think they want me spending my time writing articles. :P) --Golbez (talk) 17:31, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

:) If you manage to get paid by your employer while surfing the web and writing in wikipedia then you are a better man than i am :) Way to go! For the conversation we are having: I disagree i am afraid, actually i think you have another two-it may be three- more fallacies in your statement but i will not hold that against you :). No, Its not shared, the Republic's geopolitics are the same with the island's geopolitics. Ill start of by creating a list of the "three powers" you used. I want us to analyse the statement you repeat "geopolitics" for "four powers", because in my opinion it is baseless, and wrong.

1. TRNC - (geo) occupied area of RoC, the republics politics directly affect it(politics).
2. military bases - area given by RoC (geo) by agreement it has no political powers whatsoever (politics)
3. buffer zone - area (geo) given "temporarily - it may be invoked at any time the Republic chooses to - by agreement no political powers whatsoever (politics)

Which are the four powers you are referring to that have the ability to have their own geopolitics separate from the Republic's ? And why you repeat "geopolitics of four"? when they have no political powers. If your argument was that there is one other power (de facto) and its geopolitics, well i would be inclined to partly-agree. i will pause again and wait for your reply. Please dont write an article there is no consensus to split the Cyprus article. In fact the Cyprus article is the overview. Thanks 23x2 _φ 18:02, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

I can get away with quick responses on talk pages, but I don't think they would like me writing an article. :) I was under the impression the SBAs were actual British territories and thus not part of the Republic. I see nothing on Wikipedia that indicates the land is being leased from the Republic, and everything indicates they are entirely separate from it. For example, the CIA World Factbook mentions 150km of land borders for Cyprus, all with the SBAs. "The Republic's geopolitics are the same with the island's geopolitics" Considering there is a partially recognized nation on 1/3 of that island, with full control over that 1/3, that statement could be considered incorrect. And then there's the question over whether or not the SBAs are part of the Republic or a possession of the United Kingdom. Furthermore, while I'm no expert on the subject, I don't see anything in our articles that says the Green Line exists at the Republic's pleasure, that it was imposed upon them by the UN, but I could easily be missing something. --Golbez (talk) 18:57, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Thats a good employer ;). Excellent, lets examine each individually, but first i will like to remind you that you have said that: "you would like to explain to our readers the "geopolitics of the island". You have used the word (geopolitics). And that is what we are discussing. Not something else, but the (geo) & (politics). I will hold you to the word you, yourself has used, (geopolitics). I will prove to you how the (geopolitics) of the island and the Republic are the same.

1. TRNC You said: "Considering there is a partially recognized nation on 1/3 of that island, with full control over that 1/3". By saying "full control" i assume you mean (geo) (politics). Well, no it doesn't enjoy full control. It doesn't enjoy even partial control, it just prevents with arms the exercise of full control by the Republic of Cyprus. Lets investigate these one by one (geo) & (politics) and you will see that your argument is not correct. Because the Republic of Cyprus has de jure control over TRNC's territory it (the Republic) has informed the international community that its (the Republic's) northern ports and airports are closed. The international community recognises this and follows suit not using these northern ports and airports. The international community recognizes practically the de jure authority the Republic of Cyprus exercises over its occupied area, the area that TRNC claims. Therefore, the (politics) of the Republic of Cyprus, affect directly the occupied area (geo). Therefore the ability of TRNC to exercise its geopolitics has to pass through the RoC.
2. SBA's. A very good read to comprehend what the SBA's are, (and a must since we are having this conversation) is this. Please if you have the time, read it fully. After reading it, please come back here and read on. You said "And then there's the question over whether or not the SBAs are part of the Republic or a possession of the United Kingdom".I think the British havent yet decided what they want their military bases to be. On one hand they claim they are "dependent territories" meaning British dependent and on the other hand "Sovereign". Either they are dependent; or they are sovereign; a territory cant be both at the same time. This issue however is for the SBA article to elaborate and explain this mess, the Cyprus article just gives a quick overview saying that these military bases exist. Now the answer to your question. As i said the SBA's do not have any authority for (politics) as they are purely military bases. The Treaty of Establishment safeguards that. So if the SBA's do not have the ability for (politics) how can we talk about a "geopolitical power"? It is wrong.
3. Buffer zone - you have no argument of (politics) here i hope. You agree that (geopolitics) as a term doesn't apply to this, and it was simply mentioned in an effort to make the argument more serious than it really is. Make it it sound important by saying that there are "4 powers". Btw you should be working and not reading this. I could argue that even the UN themselves dont have the ability to exercise (geopolitics). But i wont.

Therefore two out of the three are striked out, as i explained, and the third, its politics are directly related with that of the Republic Of Cyprus. So i stand firmly by my initial argument that the geopolitics of the Republic and the geopolitics of the island are the same, as it is an island nation. 23x2 _φ 20:33, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

"It just prevents with arms the exercise of full control by the Republic of Cyprus" But isn't that simply what a de facto but not de jure independent country does? That doesn't change the fact that it is a de facto independent country and has been for nearly 40 years. (I was kind of hoping someone would accuse me of being a Turkish nationalist, which would make my day in a way you cannot understand, as I get accused of being an Armenian sympathizer all the time on the Nagorno-Karabakh articles) The TRNC occupies land that is globally recognized as part of Cyprus, but it has exercised sufficient control for a sufficient amount of time to be its own actor as well. Just like Nagorno-Karabakh, just like Somaliland, just like Taiwan.

I think the "sovereign" means they are places where the British government is sovereign, unlike leased air bases like the U.S. has at Ramstein. Not that Akrotiri is in itself sovereign. They are a geopolitical entity because they represent the United Kingdom's possessions on the island that may or may not (the jury is obviously still out, as I have not read the article) be part of the Republic. If they are not part of the Republic then the island and the Republic are not coterminous. (not that they are anyway, but the issue of minor islands is a different point)

I've read the treaty and it details where the SBAs and Republic will intersect, but it doesn't make it clear one way or another if the SBAs are part of the Republic.

The Green Line is a product of political geography; any other geography isn't relevant, so "geopolitics" is the correct term here. Anything involving the imaginary lines in the sand that we humans draw is geopolitical. The UN appears to unilaterally control territory in the Republic that, while de jure part of the Republic (more clear cut than whether or not the SBAs are de jure part of the Republic), is de facto under blue beret control.

So, on the island, we have the following entities:

• Republic of Cyprus
  • The island makes up 99% of its de jure territory.
  • The island makes up 99% of its de facto territory.
  • (the 1% is given to handle associated minor islands)
  • 100% of the island is de jure in the Republic.
  • 60% of the island is de facto in the Republic.
  • (Please don't hassle me on the percentages, I'm just illustrating something here)
• Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus
  • It has no de jure territory.
  • The island makes up 99% of its de facto territory.
  • 0% of the island is de jure in the TRNC
  • 30% of the island is de facto in the TRNC.
• Sovereign Base Areas
  • The island makes up 100% of its de jure territory.
  • The island makes up 100% of its de facto territory.
  • 8% of the island is de jure in the SBAs.
  • 8% of the island is de facto in the SBAs.
• Green Line
  • It has no de jure territory.
  • The island makes up 100% of its de facto territory.
  • 0% of the island is de jure in the Green Line.
  • 2% of the island is de facto in the Green Line.

So, based on the above, we have four entities that have de facto control over the island, including two entities with de jure control. Furthermore, two of the entities with de facto control also control areas that are not on the island. My point here is, geopolitically, the island and the Republic are not coterminous and should not be treated as such. --Golbez (talk) 20:54, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Well, we disagree, lets agree to that. Geopolitics being the application of the influence of political and economic geography on the politics, national power, foreign policy, etc., of a state. I have explained that the "three powers" although having the territory (we disagree in the way we mean "have") they lack the ability to practice policies in a way that the term (geopolitics) implies. You have listed geography of the 3 "entities", nothing more. 23x2 _φ 21:10, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

I think you are making a good argument about geopolitics and I agree with your analysis. Also the legal details that these issues represent can be adequately explained in the already existing satellite articles about the bases and northern Cyprus. The main article on Cyprus can accommodate these issues in summary style. There is no reason to create any new articles. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 22:33, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

But why is the article for a country that has only controlled 2/3 of a landmass for 40 years the only acceptable article for said landmass, especially when that landmass makes up only part (albeit the largest part by far) of said country? --Golbez (talk) 22:58, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

We are not here to invent new onomatology based on our own original ideas about what the landmass is comprised of or not. In the references I have provided everyone refers to the island and the state with a single term and makes no distinction between the terms. The British Government, again in the references below, refers to TRNC also as the the "north of Cyprus". So the short answer to your question is: Because the international community recognises "said landmass", as you put it, to be one and the same as the Republic, the nation, and the island state. We must then reflect the vocabulary established by the international community and not invent artificial entities on our own. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 00:08, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

No one cares about your sources. We know there are sources that say Cyprus and the republic are coterminous, despite that being blatantly false (Cyprus the Republic also contains local smaller islands). This isn't a numbers game, so stop playing it. Instead, speak to this: are the SBAs part of the Republic? If they are not then the island is shared between at least two sovereigns and thus the article should be split like Ireland is. --Golbez (talk) 14:59, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

You say: No one cares about your sources. Please speak for yourself. You may not care for the sources but many other people do. By the way they are not "my sources"; this is the international community speaking about Cyprus and it clearly establishes the coterminous usage of the terms by everyone in the international community. You say ...despite that being blatantly false. I hope you understand you cannot evaluate language usage by reliable sources; this is original research on your part. You are going against the international community and you are calling everyone's usage of the terms wrong. I think when you reach the stage in your arguments that the international community is wrong and you are right it may be time to reconsider your thinking. As far as the SBAs it is a clear case, as I said above, of WP:UNDUE and it does not advance your argument one iota because the international community does not care and makes no distinction on its onomatology based on the SBAs. So please stop making it. The evidence of coterminous usage is overwhelming. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 17:55, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Thirty one more sources

Another example to use as reference when the article gets unprotected: <ref name="BlijMuller2010">{{cite book|author1=H. J. de Blij|author2=Peter O. Muller|author3=Jan Nijman|title=The World Today: Concepts and Regions in Geography|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=l4V50jYkWRgC&pg=PA66|accessdate=27 December 2012|date=4 October 2010|publisher=John Wiley & Sons|isbn=978-0-470-64638-0|pages=66–|quote=Also in this southeastern corner of the European Periphery lies the island country of Cyprus (an EU member since 2004), whose political geography merits special attention because of the complications it created, and continues to create,...}}</ref> Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 01:15, 28 December 2012 (UTC) Here are some more: <ref name="SolstenDivision1993">{{cite book|author1=Eric Solsten|author2=Library of Congress. Federal Research Division|title=Cyprus, a country study|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=5UuFAAAAIAAJ|accessdate=27 December 2012|year=1993|publisher=Federal Research Division, Library of Congress|isbn=978-0-8444-0752-4}}</ref> and: <ref name="Singh2008">{{cite book|author=L.K. Singh|title=Marketing In Service Industry, Airline, Travel, Tours And Hotel|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=ymeMwS6X0C4C&pg=PA91|accessdate=27 December 2012|date=1 January 2008|publisher=Gyan Publishing House|isbn=978-81-8205-476-9|pages=91–|quote=When compared with the price elasticity's of Cyprus, also an island country in the Mediterranean, Malta's price sensitivity is higher. At the same time, it appears that the small island destinations have higher price elasticity's than larger ..}}</ref> <ref name="New York Times">{{cite news|title=Cyprus to Take Over European Presidency|url=http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/27/world/europe/cyprus-to-take-over-european-presidency.html?ref=cyprus&_r=0|accessdate=27 December 2012|quote= What was supposed to be a proud moment for this tiny island nation of nearly 800,000 people...}}</ref> <ref name="Queen's University Belfast">{{cite news|title=Cyprus and Divided Societies|author= Multi-disciplinary Workshop, 20th - 21st May, 2008, Queen's University, Belfast |url=http://www.psych.qub.ac.uk/cyprus/aboutcyprus/|accessdate=27 December 2012|quote=Information About Cyprus Cyprus, «SY pruhs», is an island and a country in the northeastern corner of the Mediterranean Sea...}}</ref> <ref name="University of Sydney">{{cite news|title=Aphrodite's Island: Australian Archaeologists in Cyprus|url=http://sydney.edu.au/news/84.html?newsstoryid=10645|date= 28 November 2012|accessdate=27 December 2012|quote= Though the small island nation in the eastern Mediterranean Sea may not loom large in people's minds when they think of international archaeology, Cyprus is hugely significant for our understanding of Mediterranean history...}}</ref> <ref name="Fox News">{{cite news|title=Hero's welcome for Cyprus' first Olympic medalist|author= Associated Press|url=http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2012/08/09/hero-welcome-for-cyprus-first-olympic-medalist972059/|date= Published August 09, 2012 |accessdate=27 December 2012|quote= Donning laurel and olive wreaths on his head like Olympic champions of antiquity, Cyprus' first-ever Olympic medalist returned home a hero on Thursday with fans chanting his name...}}</ref> <ref name="Global Edge MSU">{{cite news|title=Cyprus: Introduction|author=Global Edge Michigan State University|url=http://globaledge.msu.edu/Countries/Cyprus|accessdate=27 December 2012|quote= Cyprus: Introduction Cyprus is an island country in the Middle East in the Eastern Mediterranean Sea...}}</ref> <ref name="Scotland goes Global">{{cite news|title=Cyprus: Study by the sea|author=Scotland goes Global|url=http://www.scotlandgoesglobal.co.uk/countries/cyprus/|accessdate=27 December 2012|quote=Cyprus is a Eurasian island country situated in the eastern Mediterranean. Cyprus hosts students from more than 50 countries including the UK, Germany, Sudan, Egypt, Syria, and Turkey. This small island nation has ten universities country- wide, most of which are located very near to beaches!...}}</ref> <ref name="Catholic Online">{{cite news|title=Five and Counting. Cyprus becomes fifth European nation to request bailout|author=Catholic Online (NEWS CONSORTIUM) 6/26/2012 Catholic Online (www.catholic.org)|url=http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=46784|accessdate=27 December 2012|quote= The small island nation of Cyprus has become the fifth eurozone nation to seek a bailout from the European Union. Cyprus' banks took a heavy beating due to Greece's levels of debt....}}</ref> <ref name="The Guardian">{{cite news|title=Cyprus – the bailed-out president|author=The Guardian|url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/jun/29/cyprus-bailed-out-president-euro |accessdate=27 December 2012|quote= It's been a strange week in Cyprus, which learnt of its vital €10bn bailout just days before it assumes presidency of the EU Now that its toxic effects have rippled across the sea – engulfing the island nation through the exposure of its banks to debt-stricken Greece....The country that assumes the presidency of the EU on Sunday is to be bailed out to the tune of an estimated €10bn (£8bn) – more than half the island's GDP...}}</ref> <ref name="telegraph.co.uk">{{cite news|title=Cash-strapped-Cyprus-plots-Russian-exit-from-austerity|author=Jeff Randall 6:00PM BST 22 Oct 2012|url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/jeffrandall/9625571/Cash-strapped-Cyprus-plots-Russian-exit-from-austerity.html|accessdate=27 December 2012|quote= This island, once a magnet for money, is perilously close to running out of cash. Standard & Poor's, the ratings agency, has downgraded Cyprus twice since the beginning of August, citing "deteriorating domestic credit conditions and eroding consumer and investor confidence". With an election due in February and fears of a lurch to the left, a local café owner admitted to me that property buyers from overseas, many of them British, who in the past had been "robbed", would be foolish to rush back...}}</ref> <ref name="CNN">{{cite news|title=Cyprus requests eurozone bailout |author=By Ben Rooney @CNNMoneyInvest June 25, 2012: 2:26 PM ET|url=http://money.cnn.com/2012/06/25/investing/cyprus/index.htm|accessdate=27 December 2012|quote= Cyprus requests eurozone bailout Cyprus, which has just over 1 million people, is by far the smallest euro area nation to seek a bailout. But the request could add to concerns about the resources Europe has to fight financial contagion. The Cypriot government did not specify how much money the country would request, but analysts say Cyprus needs about €4 billion. The top three Cypriot banks could need up to €4 billion in additional capital, which is equal to about 25% of the nation's overall economy, according to Fitch...}}</ref> <ref name="CNN2">{{cite news|title=Cyprus facing up to life after 'peak water' |author=By Natasha Maguder, CNN September 22, 2010 8:22 a.m. EDT |url=http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/09/20/cyprus.water/index.html|accessdate=27 December 2012|quote= (CNN) -- Cyprus is an island of one million people in the Mediterranean Sea and it's facing a water crisis. It is the first country in the European Union to face what is being described as "peak water" where the demand for water is greater than that which the natural resources can supply...}}</ref> <ref name="FCO">{{cite web|title=Cyprus |author=Foreign and Commonwealth Office of the British Government|url=http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-living-abroad/travel-advice-by-country/country-profile/europe/cyprus/|accessdate=27 December 2012|quote= The UK does not recognise the self-declared 'Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus' ('TRNC' in the northern part of the island. The 'TRNC' is not internationally recognised, except by Turkey. Throughout this document, the 'TRNC' is either referred to as such, or simply as the northern part of Cyprus...}}</ref> <ref name="The Star">{{cite news|title=Eurozone woes pile on as Cyprus, Spain seek bailout, Greek finance minister resigns|author=Vanessa Lu Business Reporter|url=http://www.thestar.com/business/article/1216968--eurozone-woes-pile-on-as-cyprus-spain-seek-bailout-greek-finance-minister-resigns|accessdate=27 December 2012|quote=Tiny Cyprus announced Monday it needs an emergency bailout because it is overexposed to the devastated Greek economy. Cyprus needs to raise at least 1.8 billion euros, equivalent to 10 per cent of its GDP, by the end of the week second to recapitalize Cyprus Popular Bank, the island’s largest bank...}}</ref> <ref name="bloomberg">{{cite news|title=Cyprus Requests Funds Becoming Fifth Euro Nation to Seek Aid |author=By Stelios Orphanides & Rebecca Christie - Jun 25, 2012 1:56 PM ET |url=http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-06-25/cyprus-requests-eu-aid-for-economy-citing-spillover-from-greece.html|accessdate=27 December 2012|quote= Cyprus sought a financial lifeline from the euro area’s firewall funds, becoming the fifth of the euro’s 17 member states to request a bailout. ...Last December, Russia lent 2.5 billion euros to the island nation...}}</ref> <ref name="Associated Press">{{cite news|title=EU, IMF officials to Cyprus for bailout talks |author=Menelaos Hadjicostis - Associated Press|url=http://www.thenationalherald.com/article/55962 |accessdate=27 December 2012|quote= Danish permanent representative at the EU Council Jeppe Tranholm-Mikkelsen, left, shakes hands with Cyprus' European Affairs Minister Andreas Mavroyiannis as they address the media on Cyprus' Presidency priorities, and the Danish Presidency achievements, at the European Council building in Brussels, Monday, July 2, 2012. Officials from Cyprus' potential rescue creditors are on their way to the island nation to begin talks on the terms of a bailout, the country's finance ministry said Monday...}}</ref> <ref name="washingtonpost">{{cite news|author=Posted by Max Fisher on December 4, 2012 at 9:00 am |title=Cyprus is poised for the second-largest bank bailout since 1970|url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/12/04/the-second-largest-bank-bailout-since-1970-is-about-to-go-down-in-cyprus/ |quote= The Mediterranean island nation, the entire economy of which is worth 18 billion Euros, apparently requires 10 billion Euros to recapitalize its banks. For a bank bailout, that’s not a particularly high sum, but when measured as a proportion of the country’s gross domestic product, it’s a staggering 56 percent.....}}</ref> <ref name="euobserver">{{cite news|author=BY VALENTINA POP|title=Cyprus bailout delayed amid debt restructuring reports|url=http://euobserver.com/economic/118594| |quote= Earlier that day, German newspaper Sueddeutsche Zeitung reported that the IMF would only agree to participate in a bailout programme for the island nation if part of its debt is written off first. "The situation in Cyprus is much worse than it is in Greece," one high-ranking EU official told Sueddeutsche.Cyprus joined the euro in 2008 along with Malta. Its banking sector is heavily exposed to the Greek troubles. Cypriot banks took losses on their Greek bonds when the Greek "haircut" was agreed earlier this year...}}</ref> <ref name="Deutsche Welle">{{cite news|author=Deutsche Welle|title=Cyprus bailout delayed amid debt restructuring reports|url=http://www.dw.de/analysis-fuss-over-possible-cyprus-bailout/a-16472485|quote=EUROZONE CRISIS Analysis: Fuss over possible Cyprus bailout Cyprus is one of the EU's smallest members, yet saving the island from bankruptcy could prove to be complicated and politically charged...}}</ref> <ref name="Financial Times">{{cite news|author=By Joshua Chaffin in Brussels and Quentin Peel in Berlin |title=Moscow keen for role in Cyprus rescue|url=http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/d562546a-4b89-11e2-b821-00144feab49a.html#axzz2GRDvDi00 |quote=Moscow has signalled its willingness to take part in an increasingly fraught financial rescue of Cyprus, amid German fears that EU money could bail out rich Russians who have stashed ill-gotten gains in the island’s banks. A €17bn rescue, which some diplomats have cited as a possibility, would roughly equal the island nation’s annual economic output...}}</ref> <ref name="Der Spiegel">{{cite news|author=By Christian Reiermann and Markus Dettmer 12/10/2012|title=Cyprus Makes Big Concessions for Bailout|url=http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/cyprus-makes-big-concessions-for-bailout-a-871938.html|quote= Cyprus wants help from the European Union's bailout fund. But the price for the billions in emergency aid money is high. The country will effectively lose its sovereignty.... Bank (ECB) and the International Monetary Fund (IMF), will essentialy take control of the Mediterranean island...}}</ref> <ref name="Reuters">{{cite news|author=By Michele Kambas NICOSIA, Dec 12 (Reuters)|title=Cyprus Makes Big Concessions for Bailout|url=http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/12/12/cyprus-bailout-cenbank-idUSL5E8NC5W320121212|quote= * Cyprus faces debt of 140 pct/GDP without ESM-CBank * Island's taxpayers looking at second-largest bank bailout ever * Cypriot banks hammered by exposure to Greece, poor risk - Financial aid for Cyprus could push its debt to 140 percent of its national output unless the EU's permanent bailout mechanism assumes some of the burden, the island's central bank governor said on Wednesday...}}</ref> <ref name="csmonitor">{{cite news|author=csmonitor|title=Cyprus Makes Big Concessions for Bailout|url=http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/Latest-News-Wires/2012/0626/Cyprus-seeks-bailout-following-Spain.-Who-s-next|quote= The island nation's government said in a terse statement that it required assistance following "negative spillover effects through its financial sector, due to its large exposure in the Greek economy." Cyprus, an island in the eastern Mediterranean of about a million people, joined the European Union in 2004 and began using the euro four years later. A recent European Commission report said the island is "experiencing very serious macroeconomic imbalances that need to be urgently addressed" and it proposed slashing spending on the island's bloated public sector and making pension reforms. Earlier Monday, Fitch became the third ratings agency to downgrade Cyprus' credit rating to junk status, estimating that the island will need another €4 billion ($5 billion) to recapitalize its banking sector...}}</ref> <ref name="Business Week">{{cite news|author=By Carol Matlack on November 08, 2012 |title=Cyprus Bailout Hits Snag Over Russian Mob Allegations |url=http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-11-08/cyprus-bailout-hits-snag-over-russian-mob-allegations|quote= According to the magazine, the BND estimates that Russians have deposited more than €20 billion ($26 billion) in Cypriot banks, more than the island nation’s estimated €18 billion gross domestic product. 8 Nov 2012 – Cyprus, on the eve of planned talks over a bailout from its European ...}}</ref> <ref name="RTE News">{{cite news|author=RTE News|title=Cyprus agrees bailout terms with EU and IMF |url=http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1123/cyprus-bailout-eu-imf.html|quote= Cyprus has agreed a bailout package with the European Union and International Monetary Fund and expects the lenders to confirm the deal later today, the island's government spokesman said. The Mediterranean island sought financial aid, which could be up to €17.5bn, equal to its entire annual economic output, in June, after its banks were battered by their exposure to the Greek crisis. The spokesman did not put a price tag on the bailout sum, saying this will depend on a report early next month that will establish how much money the island nation will need to recapitalise its banks. However the island's public sector workers already voiced their opposition to the deal...}}</ref> <ref name="WSJ">{{cite news|author=By MATINA STEVIS EUROPE NEWS Updated November 23, 2012, 2:15 p.m.|title= Cyprus Bailout Talks to Continue|url=http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324352004578136441675935154.html|quote=The bailout, set to be the fifth in the euro zone, will mainly focus on recapitalizing the island nation's banks. The island may need a further €7.5 billion over the next four years, Finance Minister Vassos Shiarly indicated in remarks to reporters...}}</ref> <ref name="ibtimes">{{cite news|author=BY Palash R. Ghosh|title=Now Cyprus May Need Bailout from Eurozone|url=http://www.ibtimes.com/now-cyprus-may-need-bailout-eurozone-371864|quote= | The tiny island nation of Cyprus may require a bailout from the Eurozone unless the government quickly enacts significant tax hikes and spending cuts, warned finance minister Kikis Kazamias...}}</ref> <ref name="The Globe and Mail">{{cite news|title=Cyprus says has clinched agreement on bailout deal |url=http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/international-business/european-business/cyprus-says-has-clinched-agreement-on-bailout-deal/article5583664/|quote=Cyprus has agreed a bailout package with the European Union and International Monetary Fund and expects the lenders to confirm the deal later, the island’s government spokesman said. The Mediterranean island sought financial aid – which could be up to €17.5-billion ($22.6-billion U.S.), equal to its entire annual economic output – in June, after its banks were battered by their exposure to the Greek crisis. The spokesman did not put a price tag on the bailout sum, saying this will depend on a report early in December that will establish how much money the island nation will need to recapitalize its banks. But the island’s public sector workers already voiced their opposition to the deal...}}</ref> <ref name="Journal of Turkish Weekly">{{cite news|title= Cyprus, International Lenders Agree on Bailout Deal |url=http://www.turkishweekly.net/news/145095/cyprus-international-lenders-agree-on-bailout-deal-agency.html|quote= The Cypriot government and the trio of international lenders have come to an agreement on a much-needed bailout loan, the Cyprus News Agency (CNA) reported on Friday. On Thursday, the mission of the three international lenders left the island nation after ten days of regular talks that yielded no final accords. Cypriot Finance Minister Vasos Shiarly said the country might need a bailout loan of up to 17 billion euro (almost $22 billion). According to the IMF, the island nation’s estimated 2012 GDP stood at $24 bullion...}}</ref> Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 02:35, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Oppose splitting, since in English usage, "Cyprus" usually means both the nation and the island, or rather the island nation recognized by the US and all but one other UN member as the legitimate government of the whole island. Note that this is a linguistic argument, rather than a political one, and if English speakers started to make the distinction, I'd support splitting.

Consider the case of China. There's a better argument for dividing that article, since not only does the People's Republic of China not control all of China, but Taiwan is officially recognized by many governments, and recognized de facto by many others (and thus unlike the TRNC it has full control over its ports, waters, and airspace). However common English usage refers to the PRC as "China," and the ROC as "Taiwan," and so in the name of simplicity, that's what we do, and we put most of the history of the entities referred to in English as "China" under the article about the PRC.

Only in Turkish does "Cyprus" (or rather "Kibris") mean anything other than the state internationally recognized as the legal government of the whole island. In English, if we're talking about the TRNC we say "Northern Cyprus" "Turkish Cyprus" or "TRNC" while using "Cyprus to refer to both the Republic of Cyprus and the Island as a whole. Unless the common English uses changes and we start distinguishing Turkish and Greek Cyprus as a matter of course (as we now do with North and South Korea), there's no reason to divide the article.--Quintucket (talk) 00:12, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Quintucket, by any chance have you ever looked at our Sovereign Base Areas article? (It has not been edited since July 5 -or by a bot on November 4- this year.) The lead says: "The only two Sovereign Base Areas are located adjacent to the Republic of Cyprus which was formerly governed by the United Kingdom." (Let me translate it for you: The only two Sovereign Base Areas are located adjacent to the Republic of Cyprus on the Island of Cyprus, which was formerly governed by the United Kingdom. (I bolded my addition to make it clear that the Sovereign Bases are "adjacent" to the Republic of Cyprus, but what was formerly governed by UK is the Island of Cyprus, and not the "Republic". This biassed obstination of claiming that the RoC is Cyprus has brought us to this point, where Cyprus-related articles in WP are strange as they currently are. --E4024 (talk) 00:44, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Interesting. I'd always assumed that despite the name and de facto British control, the Sovereign Base Areas were de jure Cypriot territory, a similar situation to the US and Gitmo, but the article indicates that they're British Overseas Territories. So you may have a point. However I can think of no good analogy, since I don't think there's any comparable situation. That said, if you're going to make the argument for splitting the article you really should stick to the base areas. You might have a point there about the base areas, but the TRNC-based case is a practically non-existent one.

Personally, I still think most English speakers will make the same assumption I did (I mean, I at least knew the base areas existed, but I still didn't know that they weren't even nominally Cypriot), and thus most English speakers (most of whom probably won't know about the SBAs or the TRNC) will treat the Republic of Cyprus and the island as co-terminous. Given this, and given the fact that the history of the Base Areas is basically that of Cyprus until 1960, and there's no civilian national identity for them, I'd say it's still probably better to treat the island and Republic as one and the same, with separate articles for the TRNC and the SBAs, which we mention in the "Cyprus" lede, i.e. the status quo.

Using the Ireland analogy, the SBAs seem closer to the Treaty Ports than to Northern Ireland, though I'm not certain of the exact legal status of the Treaty Ports. —Quintucket (talk) 01:33, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

You said: This biassed obstination of claiming that the RoC is Cyprus has brought us to this point, where Cyprus-related articles in WP are strange as they currently are. This biassed obstination is shared by the whole of the international community. Have you bothered to read the biassed obstinations of CNN, the New York Times, books, universities, even the Journal of Turkish Weekly and all the other references I put in the collapsed section all of whom make no distinction whatsoever between the republic, the island and the nation? From someone who keeps calling Cyprus the "so-called Republic of Cyprus" every chance you get it may be a bit much to expect. Talk about bias. And in any case the sovereign bases are only 250 km² in area. This compared to the island's 9,251 km² is a very minuscule amount. In percentages the bases comprise 0.0270241055% of the island or the Republic is 99.9729758945% 97.29758945% of the island, a virtual 100%. This is a classic case of WP:UNDUE to put such an emphasis on such a tiny area but that only serves to highlight the size of your POV. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 02:19, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Oppose split. Primary usage of "Cyprus" is the country. Converting "Cyprus" to a disambiguation page would be a huge disservice to our readers. Splitting the article will also lead to a large amount of content forking. Athenean (talk) 04:33, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Straw man; at least one of those strenuously arguing for a split (me) has not suggested moving "Cyprus" to a disambiguation page. The obvious most common use for the name "Cyprus" is for the country; I suggest splitting off "Cyprus (island)" to illustrate the complicated geopolitical nature of the island. --Golbez (talk) 14:59, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Oppose splitting: cf. the analogy: Taiwan, the island, and the Republic of China (RoC), the state on the island, direct to the same page, even though the RoC is internationally much less recognized than the state of Cyprus (Taiwan is recognized by 30+ states, while Northern Cyprus as a separate state from the Republic of Cyprus is only recognized by a single country, its occupying power Turkey). Gun Powder Ma (talk) 11:20, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

The two are not analogous, as Taiwan has only one entity exercising sovereign power over its land, whilst two entities claim it. Cyprus has four powers, claimed by three, and is thus much more complex. This is less to do with the TRNC and more to do with the SBAs, to be honest. --Golbez (talk) 14:59, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

The Cyprus case is in fact less complex than the Taiwan issue: the United Nations and the international community recognizes only the Republic of Cyprus as the state of and on Cyprus. That is a straightforward situation. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 11:18, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Do we have a source that explicitly states the UN says the Republic covers the entire island and/or that the SBAs are part of the Republic? I haven't seen one, unless it's buried in Dr. K's pile o' sources. --Golbez (talk) 14:13, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

No, but here is Der Spiegel saying "The country will effectively lose its sovereignty.... Bank (ECB) and the International Monetary Fund (IMF), will essentialy take control of the Mediterranean island. Effectively equating the island with the Republic. There are more sources with very similar phraseology. The small percentage of the SBAs is not enough for the international community to make any distinction between the Republic and the island and so it is ignored by them in their onomatology. Insisting on the opposite is a classic case of WP:UNDUE and WP:NPOV and goes against the accepted international onomatological practice as I said before.

<ref name="Der Spiegel">{{cite news|author=By Christian Reiermann and Markus Dettmer 12/10/2012|title=Cyprus Makes Big Concessions for Bailout|url=http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/cyprus-makes-big-concessions-for-bailout-a-871938.html|quote= Cyprus wants help from the European Union's bailout fund. But the price for the billions in emergency aid money is high. The country will effectively lose its sovereignty.... Bank (ECB) and the International Monetary Fund (IMF), will essentialy take control of the Mediterranean island...}}</ref>

Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 19:07, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Gun Powder Ma specifically mentioned the United Nations, it's not unsound of me to want that backed up or rescinded. Der Spiegel is not exactly the United Nations. --Golbez (talk) 19:22, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Cyprus is a UN member state which is recognized as such under name of "Cyprus", the name of the island. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 00:45, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

That they are recognized by a certain name does not mean the UN considers the SBAs to be part of the Republic. Your argument is exceptionally weak and you do yourself a disservice by repeating it. "Ireland" is a member under the name of "Ireland", but no one suggests that the country of Ireland is the whole island based solely on that. Or do you? If you are going to take the UN's use of the name "Cyprus" as solid proof that the UN considers the whole island to be part of Cyprus then, does that mean they use different rules for Ireland or are you just making stuff up? If you do not have a source explicitly stating that the UN considers the SBAs to be part of Cyprus, or that the Republic takes up the entire island, then please withdraw your statement as an affirmation of your position. There's no honor lost in being wrong, so long as you correct it in a timely fashion. --Golbez (talk) 14:50, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Again with the SBA argument. Give it up already, it's not cutting the mustard. We're not going to split the article because of the SBAs, period. The split will only occur if a consensus to do so forms. Right now, we couldn't be any further from a consensus, and it is my feeling such a consensus is not going to form. Put down the stick and back away from the horse. Athenean (talk) 22:32, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Governments in Cyprus (?)

From the UK British Sovereign Bases Administration's official website: "The Administration is in effect the civil government of the SBAs. The Headquarters of the SBAA is at Episkopi. Its range of interest is that of any civil government but, many of its functions, particularly in respect of the Cypriot inhabitants of the SBAs, are carried out by Republican officials on behalf of the Administration under delegated powers. The SBAA itself carries out those minimum functions directly related to the exercise of sovereignty – the enactment of legislation, maintenance of law and order and the control of immigration and development." (I bolded some important points.) This information may be useful to comprehend better the status of the Island of Cyprus and to continue the above discussion on a more informed basis. --E4024 (talk) 21:32, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

The presence of the bases on Cyprus and their administrative status has no effect on the recognition of Cyprus as Cyprus by the international community. These are just legalistic arguments you are presenting to defy the fact that "Cyprus the island" is widely recognised as "Cyprus the state and island nation" by the international community. No amount of legalistic nitpicking will change that fact. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 22:25, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

How can you say that Republic = island if that is demonstrably false due to the presence of the SBAs which may be in fact considered by Cyprus and the UK to be outside the Republic? What we need are sources from the Republic and UK that speak on this matter. --Golbez (talk) 15:01, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

The SBAs are definitely outside the republic, that has never been in question. However, does their existence mean that a second article is needed? I can't see how a separate article would result in anything other than content duplication. CMD (talk) 17:51, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

All I ask - and I can provide an example thereof in a few days when I have a computer I can write an article on - is an overview article of the complex geopolitical nature of the island. Not a geography fork, either, just a border outline that doesn't treat the Green Line, SBAs, and TRNC are mere subtopics of the Republic. --Golbez (talk) 18:16, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

As I said above the bases are 0.0270241055% of the island are or the Republic is 99.9729758945% of the island, a virtual 100%. It would be WP:UNDUE to split the article based on a tiny percentage as 0.0270241055% for the bases. That and the fact that the international community has decided that there is no distinction in the terms for the island or the Republic or the nation makes this a clear case against not splitting the article. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 18:01, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

You have your decimal point in the wrong place; the bases are 2.7% of the island, not .027%. (Yes, 250 / 9251 is .027, but that means 2.7%. 250 / 250 is 1.0, that doesn't mean 1%, that means 100%. You have to multiply the resultant fraction by 100 to get the percentage, that's what a percentage is, per cent, per 100.) Please do not continue to use demonstrably false numbers to further your position, as you will irreparably weaken it. Also, that the international community is ignorant of the SBAs doesn't mean we have to be. --Golbez (talk) 18:16, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

No lessons are needed for an honest mistake due to a hasty calculation. Even at 2.7% this is a second-order phenomenon compared to the size of the Republic. The international community is not "ignorant" of anything. These are prestigious organisations with thousands of employees and many are academics who have written books on the subject. They just choose to ignore the tiny percentage of the bases. Calling these prestigious organisations "ignorant" is original research on your part. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 18:26, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

@Golbez (This came late for an edit conflict that made me smile.): Golbez, in other words we may inform the "international public opinion" well on Cyprus or "underinform" it. I prefer the above term instead of "international community" because the latter refers more to the "chancelleries", which are high offices that know everything but at times tend to pretend ignoring several things for convenience. No need to say, these offices have a major influence on the press and academia (public opinion).--E4024 (talk) 18:41, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

DECLARATION BY THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED KINGDOM,Zurich treaty,1959

B. That, with the exception of two areas at (a) Akrotiri - - Episkopi - - Paramali, and (b) Dhekelia - - Pergamos - - Ayios Nikolaos - - Xylophagou, which will be retained under full British sovereignty, they are willing to transfer sovereignty over the Island of Cyprus to the Republic of Cyprus subject to the following conditions: 1) that such rights are secured to the United Kingdom Government as are necessary to enable the two areas as aforesaid to be used effectively as military bases, including among others those rights indicated in the Annex attached, and that satisfactory guarantees are given by Greece, Turkey and the Republic of Cyprus for the integrity of the areas retained under British sovereignty and the use and enjoyment by the United Kingdom of the rights referred to above; 2) that provision shall be made by agreement for: I. the protection on the fundamental human rights of the various communities in Cyprus; II. the protection of the interests of the members of the public services in Cyprus; III. determining the nationality of persons affected by the settlement; IV. the assumption by the Republic of Cyprus of the appropriate obligations of the present Government of Cyprus, including the settlement of claims.

UN A/RES/37/253 16 May 1983

The General Assembly,

2. Affirms the right of the Republic of Cyprus and its people to full and effective sovereignty and control over the entire territory of Cyprus andits natural and other resources and calls upon all States to support and help the Government of the Republic of Cyprus to exercise these rights;

Euronews

"The rest of the world recognises the Greek Cypriot state in the south, which represents the whole island in the European Union that Ankara also aims to join."

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.235.54.69 (talk • contribs)

Greek Cypriot State in the south. Hummm... :-) --E4024 (talk) 18:44, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry. Here is the full paragraph:

"Only Turkey recognises the self-styled Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. The rest of the world recognises the Greek Cypriot state in the south, which represents the whole island in the European Union that Ankara also aims to join." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.235.54.69 (talk) 18:54, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

So, wait, "With the exception of the two bases... they are willing to transfer sovereignty over the island"? So the SBAs are not included in the Republic? Not sure why the UN passage is quoted as it appears to add nothing. --Golbez (talk) 19:04, 31 December 2012 (UTC).

(Replying to Golbez with similar irony level as him)

A formal UN General Assembly document ignoring the bases and recognizing the RoC as sovereign state adds nothing? I had the impression that UN resolutions are more carefully writen and the bases would be mentioned if considered appropriate. Maybe something like "over the entire territory of Cyprus except the bases"? You can keep ignoring formal sources but realize that your lack of any proper arguments. ( 2.5% is not a reason for a split)

What you pasted says the people of Cyprus should hold full sovereignty over the territory of Cyprus; this is somewhat uncontroversial and I don't see what it has to do with what we're arguing. :P If Northern Ireland made up only 2.5% of the island of Ireland, would we not have an article for the island as a whole? I think we would, in part because of the Anglo subject bias of the English Wikipedia, there is far more content on Ireland than there is Cyprus. I'm a little surprised no one's tried to bring up the example of Guantanamo Bay, the difference being that land is still globally recognized as being part of Cuba. Though I would propose a similar split of Cuba as well, since the nation of Cuba makes up more than the landmass of Cuba, same with Cyprus. I would also support a split of Great Britain, were that country still in existence, as well as a split of Malta (which is already split), and Australia, and Taiwan, really, though I wouldn't argue as strenuously for them. I just think every landmass should get its own article regardless of political status. There are few places where an island country is purely coterminous with its single named landmass; Cyprus isn't one, Cuba isn't one, Iceland isn't one. The only ones I can really think are Nauru and maybe some of the Lesser Antilles, which are too small to have associated islands. But anyway, this is mostly a matter of Wikipedia ideas rather than my own, if Wikipedia had wanted separate articles for each landmass we'd probably have them by now. The issue with Cyprus is that it's such a geopolitically crowded landmass that I think that - not necessarily anything else pertaining to the island - warrants separate mention rather than as a subtopic. There is no article that I can think of that simply lists the four entities on the island as separate topics, right now all we have is this article (where they are all subtopics to the Republic) or the Cyprus dispute article (which does not really involve the SBAs). Maybe what I'm seeking is less a split and more a fork. --Golbez (talk) 20:03, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

@The IP user who forgot to sign: "Do the words the areas retained under British sovereignty refer to Hong Kong and Gibraltar? We are discussing about Cyprus here... --E4024 (talk) 19:54, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

No one mentioned Hong Kong or Gibraltar. How did you come up with this?

Golbez, — Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.235.54.69 (talk) 20:04, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Instead of trying to explain yourself with poor arguments such as the bases see the reality. Splitting the article is ridiculous. Why do the UN write about the RoC as being the sovereign state? Is the UN ignorant of the existence of the Bases? There are 30 sources by Dr.K that refer to the Republic of Cyprus as Cyprus. Is it WP:COMMONNAME or not? i hope your next argument won't be Ireland which is actually divided by 2 countries, split with a significant percentage of the island compared with the bases which by the treaty are effectively military bases and cover 2.5% of the island. I doubt that you actually read what is posted here based on your arguments

Why is it strange the UN would reiterate the right of the Republic to be sovereign over the land the Republic claims, and that the UN says it includes? The statement you pasted mentioned nothing as to the extent of the Republic. I don't really care that Dr.K has 30 sources, he should have stopped somewhere around 5, as after that it just became noise, and especially because they were mostly useless. It's very uncontroversial to refer to the Republic as "Cyprus", and I can only speak for myself but I certainly never argued otherwise. Of course the short form name of the country is Cyprus, and the article for the country should remain at said location. So, at least my argument has nothing to do with COMMONNAME so I'll thank you not to throw it at me. As for "actually divided by two countries", what about Cyprus which appears to be divided by at least two, the Republic and possessions of the UK? I can make this argument without ever bringing up Northern Cyprus if necessary, that's just frosting on the cake. I'm not exactly using Ireland as an example, I'm using it as a point: If Northern Ireland were the relative size of the SBAs, I still think it would have an article on the island in part due to the systemic bias of Wikipedia towards that region. We know more about it, therefore we have more articles on the subject. However, I CAN use Ireland to counter Dr.K's sources, as in several instances he used mentions of "Cyprus" to indicate the source was treating the island and country as identical; I had the same sources, using the same words, that mention Ireland, but no one would suggest the island and country of Ireland were identical. --Golbez (talk) 20:17, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

(Above was writen before reading the reply))

Please leave the country alone. The bases do not have a proper government. They are military bases. Please stop making them something they are not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.235.54.69 (talk) 20:09, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

That they are mere military bases does not change the possible (we seem to still be arguing this part) fact that they are not part of the Republic of Cyprus, and therefore the Republic and the island are not equivalent. All evidence that I've seen so far is that they are external territories of the United Kingdom and were never included with the Republic upon its independence; I'd love to see a deeper scholarly treatment of the matter if you have one available. --Golbez (talk) 20:17, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

(Removed proxy edit)

Golbez we are going round in circles. This article is the overview of Cyprus. 23x2 _φ 12:57, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

No, it's the article on the Republic. Are we positive that the island and the Republic are coterminous? If not, then the island needs its own article, no matter how insignificant (say, 2.7%) the difference between the two is. The question is, are the SBAs part of the Republic? All I've seen so far says no, they are not, the Republic has land borders with territories of the UK. --Golbez (talk) 14:38, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

No borders or checks are present between the Republic and the bases and that is the reason the bases are never mentioned and Republic of Cyprus is called Cyprus .79.111.13.156 (talk) 18:28, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Welcome to WP! Can you please explain us why the Base Areas Administration has a "customs" department; to protect the British customs and traditions on the island? --E4024 (talk) 18:34, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Easy mate, I'm not here to argue. I'm just saying that I've been there and there is no physical border when "crossing", no president, no sperate currency and most of the eployees outside the actual military area are Cypriots, Greek or Turkish. They do not claim any sea territory and is definitely not UK but an overseas territory which is not even mentioned most of the time in Bristish Overseas territories lists because it is only for the military 79.111.13.156 (talk) 18:53, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

"No separate currency" doesn't make one the same country; are you suggesting France and Germany are the same nation? No president? They have a queen, being under solely British jurisdiction. None of what you say is a challenge to the notion that the SBAs are separate from the Republic. Furthermore, I've never said they are part of the UK, they are overseas territories of it, alongside places like the British Indian Ocean Territory, Gibraltar, and Bermuda. --Golbez (talk) 19:14, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

So are you arguing that they are not military bases? 23x2 _φ 19:31, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Nope, when did I say that? I equated them with the BIOT, which is basically Diego Garcia, a military base. The difference between the BIOT and the SBAs and, say, Gibraltar, is that Gibraltar has a substantial civilian base and is not purely for military uses, but the division of civilian vs. military does not in any way change the fact that both are overseas territories of the United Kingdom. As opposed to, say, the overseas bases of the United States, which are usually leased land from the countries they are placed in, and in zero cases are these bases considered the overseas territory of the United States, even Guantanamo Bay. But these three facilities of the British military - BIOT and the two SBAs - are considered actual overseas territories of the country. --Golbez (talk) 19:39, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Golbez You are going in circles, i have explained to you, that this article is the overview. The military bases and the administration on the occupied areas of the Republic are described in the lead. There is no need to separate this article. 23x2 _φ 18:44, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

This is not the overview. This article is about the Republic of Cyprus. That there are other entities described in the lead doesn't change the fact that this article is solely about the country of Cyprus, rather than the three other entities on the island. There is no article about the geopolitics of the island at large. How am I going in circles? --Golbez (talk) 19:14, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Make up your mind: Is it "Golbez we are going round in circles" or "Golbez you are going in cycles"? I think you are repeating yourself with minor changes... --E4024 (talk) 18:49, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

WAIT A MINUTE PEOPLE. THIS DISCUSSION HAS TURNED TO A JOKE. QUEEN ELIZABETH II IS ALSO THE QUEEN OF AUSTRALIA AND MANY OTHER INDEPENDENT TERRITORIES(ABOUT 20?). GERMANY AND FRANCE ARE COUNTRIES WITH THE SHARED CURRENNCY OF THE EU. THE BASES DO NOT DIFFER MUCH FROM ANY COUNTRY'S MILITARY BASES ON A FOREIGN COUNTRY AROUND THE WORLD. SUCH A LONG DISCUSSION FOR SUCH A SMALL DETAIL. THERE ARE BETTER PLACES TO SPEND YOUR TIME EDITING THAN THE CURRENT DISCUSSION.79.111.13.156 (talk) 19:42, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Sometimes E4024 you are trying too hard to be funny. Relax, you dont have to try that hard. 23x2 _φ 19:09, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Golbez I see you are insisting of the "geopolitics of the island" argument. Thats why you are going in circles, and repeating yourself. If you want an article explaining the Human geography of the island then you should take this discussion to the Geography of Cyprus article. 23x2 _φ 19:22, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm repeating myself because the arguments are being poorly refuted. In the face of inadequate responses there's no need to change my argument. --Golbez (talk) 19:32, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

I am sorry Golbez, but your arguments are extremely poor, baseless, and wrong. 30+ RS sources say otherwise + commonname + "geopolitics" argument which is false. 23x2 _φ 19:55, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

What is wrong in my saying that the SBAs are not part of Cyprus? Answer me that. Also, "extremely poor?" Please. At least I don't paste sources that are easily refuted by replacing the word "Cyprus" with "Ireland". --Golbez (talk) 20:43, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

No its not easily refuted by replacing a word, as the sources are for the specific word they mention, i.e. "Cyprus". If i start replacing words, thats original ressearch. I have already replied. In what sense you mean? You mean geographically, politically or geopolitically? 23x2 _φ 21:01, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

You must have missed where I refuted several of Dr. K's assertions about sourcing by using the example of Ireland. That's fine. In what sense are the SBAs not part of the Republic of Cyprus? In every conceivable way, just as Gibraltar is not part of Spain. In what sense are you saying they are part of the Republic? --Golbez (talk) 21:39, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

PRO-Split <duplicate !vote by user:Sbasturk> Would you please stop this unnecessary discussion and split this article? The fact is already out there that the Cyprus government and the island are not the same thing. What are we waiting for? Sbasturk (talk) 20:48, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

That's a nice trick. You have already !voted twice as "Sbasturk" and once as "Serhan" for a total of three times. Please erase the excess !votes. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 21:55, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Golbez i read what you wrote, when Dr. K gave you 30+ RS source contradicting your argument. I do not accept that you have "refuted" them, because you are using original research to contradict reliable sources, thats why your arguments (i think) are extremely poor not to mention commonname which complete against your argument and the "geopolitical entities" fallacy you argued on. Initially you were even arguing that the United Nations buffer zone in the Republic is another "geopolitical power". And that was wrong too. I have asked you to specify your question, In what sense you mean? You mean geographically, politically or geopolitically? i didnt ask you to answer your own question. Gibraltar is Gibraltar and not Cyprus. Just like the queen argument you brought up only to be silenced by the IP's answer (and E4024 attempting to remove it) 23x2 _φ 22:05, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Stop it there, will you? I only asked the IP to write the argument in lowercase, without shouting. (BTW I did not see anything interesting in their words.) --E4024 (talk) 22:13, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

I refuted Dr. K's use of them. If I can poke holes in them then they are not suitable sources for what he was arguing (His sourcing was primarily, the world considers the island and country to be the same because of this wording. I pointed out the exact same sources used the exact same wording when referring to Ireland, which no one considers to be the same, so that destroys his argument). He then committed the same error, at which point I decided he had nothing to offer. The UN is a de facto power in a small part of Cyprus, yes. I haven't brought that or the TRNC up recently because I haven't had to; the SBAs are sufficient to establish that the island and Republic of Cyprus are not the same thing. In what sense are the SBAs not part of Cyprus? Politically (they have different sovereigns and are not considered the same country), geographically (They occupy different chunks of land) and geopolitically (they are distinct polities that are distinct from one another). Finally, I fail to see why you are bringing up the common name policy, seeing as how I never once suggested this article be moved from where it is. Also, "silenced by the IP's answer"? What, you mean his suggestion that only entities with different currencies and border patrols are different countries? The French will be startled to learn they've joined Germany. --Golbez (talk) 22:14, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Well, no, you are using original research/synthesis to argue against reliable and verifiable sources which Dr. K has provided. Also you are insisting on repeating the same false argument. SBA's are not a political establishment. They are military bases, i have provided sources and explained it to you over and over again, but you insist ignoring or forgeting (?) what we discussed earlier. You are not bringing TRNC or the UN buffer zone up, because you understood (i hope) that they are wrong arguments as explained over and over and over. 23x2 _φ 22:22, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Again. Don't say I refuted Dr. K's use of them. You have done nothing of the kind. The International Community has spoken. They consider the Republic, the island and the island-nation to be one and the same. You are not doing anything by arguing these points again and again. Let others chime in now. You made your points and if I judge from the "oppose" !votes you have not been successful in gaining consensus for your point of view. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 22:26, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

When you use a source from the BBC as an indicator that the global community refers to the island and the republic as being the same, and I can use a page from the exact same source using the exact same language for Ireland, that means your argument is faulty. You are the one synthesizing - you are taking webpages and saying, "See? This matches my idea!" while skillfully omitting the parts that, y'know, don't match your idea.

As for 23x2: Whether the SBAs are a political establishment is irrelevant, so I won't get into that semantic battle with you. The real question is, are they part of the Republic of Cyprus? Where is a source (You claim to have some) that says the SBAs are part of the Republic of Cyprus? Because above was posted text from the treaty that formed Cyprus that indicates the SBAs are in fact not part of the country. The CIA World Factbook indicates that Cyprus has land borders with the SBAs. If they are not, then the island is shared and warrants its own article, end of story. So, it comes down to you: What reliable sources state explicitly that the SBAs are part of the Republic? Not that the Republic is on the whole island, that could come down to ignorance or expedience. I want an explicit statement that the SBAs are within the borders of the Republic of Cyprus. --Golbez (talk) 22:33, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Ireland has nothing to do with Cyprus. Cyprus has only a tiny percentage of SBA territory which easily falls under WP:UNDUE. No comparison to Ireland. Please do not repeat this discredited line of inquiry. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 22:39, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

My point is, you cannot use a statement to back your position, if that exact same wording can be used against your position. This has nothing to do with discrediting sources, it has to do with me saying you're reading those sources incorrectly. --Golbez (talk) 22:42, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

You made your points and I made mine. Let's just agree to disagree. Let others chime in now instead of monopolising the discussion with predictable repetitions. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 22:49, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Yet, if the SBAs are not part of the European Union then the entire island of Cyprus cannot be considered in the EU, and if it is not, then the Republic (which is a member of the EU) cannot logically be the entire island. If the landmass is shared, it must get its own article, no matter how insignificant that share may be. --Golbez (talk) 20:45, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Comment over the Above: Golbez, whether the SBAs are part of the EU or not is not that decisive really. Because being part of the EU only makes the border between one of those two base areas with the "Republic of Cyprus" an "internal border of the EU" instead of an "external border with the TRNC" as is the case with the other base area, supposedly "temporarily" until the whole of Cyprus is in the EU, which is a hypothetical thesis indeed. --E4024 (talk) 15:41, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Oppose Splitting: The bases are somewhat part of the Republic of Cyprus as from 1960-1964 the United Kingdom paid rent but stopped doing so after the intercommunal violence claiming that the money would not be splitted equally between the 2 sides. The Republic of Cyprus also wants the UK to pay it the corresponding amount from 1964 to present. Cyprus supports that the bases are its territory. The Sovereign bases are also non-residential(for civilians), military entities maily used for operations and training and would not be a reason for a split the article which also follows the convention. JGordon7859 (talk) 02:50, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Not that I'm saying you're wrong, but I was unable to find sources for the above in an (admittedly very quick) Google search. Do you have sources for the rent and that Cyprus says the bases are its territory? --Golbez (talk) 14:54, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Thats the case indeed.

Historical Dictionary of Cyprus, page 26 by Farid Mirbagheri, http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=f82Jn_H4VukC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false 101.99.3.164 (talk) 15:20, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Inconveniently, pages 26 and 27 are not available in the preview. Presumably you have access to a full copy, can you type the relevant sentences for me? Thanks. --Golbez (talk) 15:31, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

"In 1960,Cyprus was granted independence from the British Empire.Great Britain wished to retain military bases on the islnd and as a result of the treaty of establishment which was signed in 1960 it was awarded the areas of Dhekelia and Acrotiri. Between 1960 and 1964 following Cypriot independence the British governement paid rent to the Republic of Cyprus for use of the SBAs. The intercommunal conflict between Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots led to the cessation of rent payments form Great Britain to the Republic of Cyprus. Britain asserted that it could not be sure that the money would benefit both communities equally. The Republic of Cyprus is still claiming rent from the British government for the use of the SBAs from 1964 to date." 101.99.3.164 (talk) 15:49, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Funny. It worked for me. Page 26 came up clear:

<ref name="Mirbagheri2010">{{cite book|author=Farid Mirbagheri|title=Historical Dictionary of Cyprus|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=f82Jn_H4VukC&pg=PA26|accessdate=4 January 2013|year=2010|publisher=Scarecrow Press|isbn=978-0-8108-5526-7|page=26|quote=In 1960,Cyprus was granted independence from the British Empire.Great Britain wished to retain military bases on the island and as a result of the treaty of establishment which was signed in 1960 it was awarded the areas of Dhekelia and Acrotiri. Between 1960 and 1964 following Cypriot independence the British governement paid rent to the Republic of Cyprus for use of the SBAs. The intercommunal conflict between Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots led to the cessation of rent payments form Great Britain to the Republic of Cyprus. Britain asserted that it could not be sure that the money would benefit bith communities equally. The Republic of Cyprus is still claiming rent from the British government for the use of the SBAs from 1964 to date.}}</ref>

Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 16:53, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

And this:

<ref name="Hocknell2001">{{cite book|author=Peter R. Hocknell|title=Boundaries of Cooperation: Cyprus, De Facto Partition, and the Delimitation of Transboundary Resource Management|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=Np06AQAAIAAJ|accessdate=4 January 2013|year=2001|publisher=Aspen Pub|isbn=978-90-411-9809-9|page=140|quote=Cypriots had freedom of navigation and fishing in the SBAs' territorial waters. An annual rent of £12 million (sterling) was to be paid to the RoC until 1965, and then subject to review; this was withheld from 1964 as payment to "Cypriots" proved too legally complicated for the British authorities"... }}<ref>

Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 17:11, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

I guess the pages are random. If I'd tried on a different browser I might have been able to get page 26. So, if they're paying rent - and the term 'rent' is used repeatedly - then that's paying for Cypriot land that they hold sovereignty to, similar to Guantanamo Bay or possibly the Panama Canal Zone, and that while it might be considered an overseas territory by the Brits, its actual status is somewhat fuzzy. So, congrats, y'all! Took you a week of horrible arguments (seriously, you don't seem to understand how dreadful "the short form name of the country is Cyprus!" argument is) but you finally found one that sticks. I'd still like an official UN and EU stance on it (if the SBAs aren't in the EU, then how can the whole island be in the EU?) but hey, at least it's something. Not that I won't sandbox up something next week when I get a new computer. --Golbez (talk) 17:28, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Freedom of navigation and fishing: Some user was questioning, during the course of this split discussion, if the Sovereign Base Areas had territorial waters. Above is the source that they do have territorial waters. --E4024 (talk) 17:26, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

To Golbez again: Golbez, as I told you above, whether the SBAs are part of the EU territory or not is not so important in this discussion, as I already told you above. Do you need a link that shows that Gibraltar is also EU territory? --E4024 (talk) 17:45, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Gibraltar is part of the EU; it is, however, I believe, the only British overseas territory that is. The SBAs are not part of the EU in themselves, though they could be part of the EU via the Republic if that's how the EU sees it. It shouldn't be this hard to find out if the EU considers the land under the SBAs as part of it or not. One source I've found (here, page 13) states that the SBAs did not accede to the EU upon Cypriot accession, but it's not an official source. Do the UN and EU have nothing clear to say on the matter? --Golbez (talk) 18:03, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

This Protocol shows clearly that the EU sees the Sovereign Base Areas not only as "separate" from the "Republic of Cyprus" but also clearly states that they belong to the United Kingdom and have own international borders. In other words, the UK is the sovereign on those parts of the island called Sovereign Base Areas. --E4024 (talk) 18:16, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

The link you provided says nothing of the kind. It just calls them SBAs of the UK. We knew that all along as we did their status. The fact that the UK government paid rent for them implies that they recognise that they don't "own" them. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 18:46, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

The caremony for Cyprus EU presidency took place in the area of the SBAs as a message from Cyprus that the Bases area is actually part of the Republic of Cyprus. The Republic of Cyprus does consider the area of the sovereign bases to be its territory and thats the reason it asked the UK to pay the rent from 1964 to present. If it was an exclusive UK area then no rent would ever be paid but from 1960-1964 the UK did pay rent and it only stopped because of the intercomunal violence which wouldn't allow the money to be spend on both sides equally.JGordon7859 (talk) 19:00, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

The majority of sources I've seen describe them as remaining under full UK sovereignty (and the UK FCO lists them with the other territories without distinction), albeit through agreement with the Cyprus government. "Rent" may perhaps just have been a word used. It was after all, time limited. Very unusual true, but oddly not unique. I've read in various places that the Malaysian government annually pays money to the line of the Sultan of Sulu for Sabah, an area completely under Malaysian sovereignty (although the Philippines, inheritor of Sulu's sovereignty, has a dormant claim). Coincidentally, this also involved the British, who originally rented Sabah from Sulu. CMD (talk) 19:09, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

No, it was not meant to be time-limited. See the citation above where it says after 1965 it was supposed to be adjusted: An annual rent of £12 million (sterling) was to be paid to the RoC until 1965, and then subject to review; this was withheld from 1964 as payment to "Cypriots" proved too legally complicated for the British authorities. It is another matter that the UK found the excuse of unequal distribution of the rent and stopped the payments. But the Republic still claims them to this day. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 19:14, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

It was time-limited, as you stated again it was going to undergo a review after 1965, at which point anything could happen really. As for the Cyprus claims, it can claim what it wants, but the UK currently claims that "Under the 1960 Treaty of Establishment, HMG retained sovereignty over the SBAs". The [http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1960/jul/04/cyprus-agreement orignal Hansard states, among other things, that (emphasis added mine) "Akrotiri, which is too closely adjacent to the main airfield to permit of an enclave solution, will be the only village under British sovereignty", "since we have no intention of relinquishing sovereignty the question of cession does not arise", "It has been agreed that Her Majesty's Government will provide over the next five years a sum of £12 million. Provision is made for the amount of aid in future five-year periods to be determined, after full consultation with the Republic". They further down also discuss the 12 million along with other payments given to Cyprus upon its independence, but also note that if sovereignty was relinquished it would be to Cyprus. Most sources seem to share this viewpoint of UK sovereignty. CMD (talk) 19:39, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

As us usual in these political situations there are disputes regarding the terms of the treaty and the status of the compensation:

<ref name="Woodliffe1992">{{cite book|author=John Woodliffe|title=The Peacetime Use of Foreign Military Installations Under Modern International Law|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=JVW8d2NiXSYC&pg=PA303|accessdate=4 January 2013|year=1992|publisher=Martinus Nijhoff Publishers|isbn=978-0-7923-1879-8|page=303|quote=From time to time a complicated and acrimonious dispute has surfaced concerning payment of "rent" for the bases; however, it would appear that the Cyprus Government has not charged the UK Government with a breach of treaty.149}}</ref>

Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 21:22, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

There is a historical dispute over money, but whatever it is is in addition to being complicated apparently quite low key and inactive. On the other hand, we have plenty of sources which explicitly assert UK sovereignty, including statements from the time of Cypriot independence and from today. None has been provided here, but I'm curious to see any current official statement from Cyprus, and would be interested to see if they claimed the territory as part of Cyprus, or claimed that it should be part of Cyprus (a quirky legal difference which applies to the Spanish claim on Gibraltar). Nonetheless, it remains that the sources, UK and other, clearly indicate the bases as a separate territory under British sovereignty and jurisdiction, and the bases are currently under British control. Statements claiming otherwise are incorrect. CMD (talk) 08:09, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

CMD, I think SBAs dont fall under the clear definition of "british overseas areas". I think i had brought this up earlier during a discussion with Golbez. Because by the Treaty of Establishment of Cyprus they are "sovereign" howver they are also claimed to be "dependent" territories of the UK. As i said before, an area clearly cant be both dependent and sovereign at the same time. Perhaps i am looking at the wrong list. Whatever the case, even if they are or even if they are not, does their existence mean that this article has to be split? I dont see the reason, since this article is the overview. 23x2 _φ 08:20, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) They may be sovereign but this sovereignty is limited to them being only used as military bases as explicitly stated in appendix o of the SBA agreement. Their military nature is also indicated by the fact that they do not report to the Foreign Office but rather to the UK Ministry of Defence. In addition the agreements explicitly preclude any other use of the bases for adding colonists to the SBA territory or any such activity. Further the laws of the Republic also apply at the SBAs for the resident Cypriots and the Republic has taxation and other powers within the SBA regime. Overall there is an overlap of jurisdictions in the SBAs between UK and the Republic. Add to that the unclear legal status of the other issues such as the rent etc. and it is far from clear that the Republic cannot exercise its authority within the SBA areas. In fact the opposite is true; it is clear that the Republic can exercise substantial powers within the SBAs. In many respects the SBAs are legally transparent to the laws of the Republic. In any regard WP:UNDUE still applies here and the onomatological issue is also resolved in that the island is coterminous with the Republic SBAs or no SBAs. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 08:37, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree Δρ.Κ.. 23x2 _φ 08:47, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

@23x2: The bases are not themselves sovereign, the UK is sovereign over the bases.

@Dr.K: That the UK delegates some administration to Cyprus does not in any way make the UK less sovereign over the areas. Cyprus exercises powers only with the sayso of the British military authority.

Whether or not the split should happen (and if you look above, and remember previous conversation, you'll note I positioned myself against it), muddying the waters by continuing to argue the mistaken position that the SBAs are part of the Republic does nothing but derail discussion. CMD (talk) 08:53, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

I understand that you want to support a view of sovereignty which is different than mine. But I did not accuse you of having a simplistic view of a rather complex and tangled legal situation in International Law. I have supplied to you references which support my arguments. The least I expect from you is to AGF that I am not trying to "muddy" the waters. If you are unable to do that CMD there is no reason to discuss this any further. In any case the Republic does not exercise its powers at the sayso of the British military authority as you suggest. It exercises them under a commitment by HM's Government: Declarations by Her Majesty’s Government regarding the Administration of the Sovereign Base Area mentioned in Article 1 of the Treaty concerning the Establishment of the Republic of Cyprus which remain under the Sovereignty of the United Kingdom under appendix o of the SBA agreement. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 09:02, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm not supporting any specific view of sovereignty, I'm following what the sources say. All your sources say is that Britain agreed to pay money to Cyprus over 5 years, after which it would undergo review, although this did not happen. Your sources do call the money rent, but one even puts that in quotation marks and notes that Cyprus hasn't accused the UK of breaching the treaty. On the other hand many sources, provided by myself and others, explicitly state that the UK has sovereignty (and as your linked page notes, everything is "subject to their military requirements and security needs", so it is the military's decision). A statement that something is muddying the waters is not in any way a comment on anyone's good faith, it's a statement that something is muddying the waters (ie making a situation less easy to understand). I thought that we had interacted enough to know that we both are interested in improving the encyclopaedia. Clearly I was mistaken. CMD (talk) 09:44, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

I am not sure why you have to link to the freedictionary. I know the expression "muddy the waters" quite well and I don't need the link. As far as your other statement that you were mistaken in your belief that we both are trying to improve the encyclopedia, I am not sure how or why you reached that conclusion but I have not reached a similar conclusion about you because of our past interactions and because I still AGF on your part. In any case, and apart from AGF, commenting on my intentions was unwarranted and surprising. I did not expect it from you and it shows that the conversation has reached a low point. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 11:02, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

The Cyprus Parliament voted for the UK to abandon the bases. The following is an article from an online newspaper showing clearly how the Republic of Cyprus regards the bases:

Nicosia, 30 June: "The Cypriot House of Representatives unanimously adopted a resolution today on the status of the British Bases in Cyprus, pointing out that they must not be used by the British for offensive purposes and calling on Britain to fulfil its financial obligations to the Republic of Cyprus and respect the rights of the Cypriots living within the Bases' areas. In its resolution, the House "declares that the United Kingdom has no sovereignty over the territory of the British Bases, even in the context of the Treaty of Establishment, but a commitment to merely use this territory for specific military purposes." I'm reminding again that the caremony for Cyprus EU presidency took place in the area of the SBAs as a message from Cyprus that the Bases area is actually part of the Republic of Cyprus.JGordon7859 (talk) 09:24, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

The link to the declaration is here: Embassy News Cypriot House adopts resolution on British Bases 2005-06-30 11:43:13. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 09:36, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Also from Cyprus Mail: EU: a Curium spectacular:

Choice of venue also political ALTHOUGH Curium was chosen for the opening ceremony mostly because of its spectacular setting, the government is also making an important political point. Cyprus’ six-month EU presidency will be launched on what is technically British rather than Cypriot territory, because Curium is part of Britain’s ‘sovereign base areas’ (SBAs). Before becoming president four years ago, Demetris Christofias, once described the SBAs as “colonial bloodstains”. But, like previous presidents, he accepted that with 35,000 Turkish troops still stationed in northern Cyprus, he had no intention of picking a fight with Britain, a permanent member of the UN Security Council. Even so, he recently said Curium was chosen to send both cultural and “political” messages. The latter, effectively, is that whatever Britain says, the amphitheatre is still “the territory of the Cyprus Republic”.

Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 09:48, 5 January 2013 (UTC)