Talk:Ludwig van Beethoven

Semi-protected edit request on 4 August 2014

Under Memorial, first paragraph, last sentence:

Current text reads, "His name appears in gilded lettering above the stage of Symphony Hall, Boston, as it was the only one on which all the board members could agree when commemorating composers in the architecture." A citation is needed.

Found the citation but the text needs to be changed to reflect the source's information. Perhaps: Beethoven's name was inscribed on one of the plaques that trim the stage and balconies of Symphony Hall at the Boston Symphony Orchestra. While the other plagues were left blank, it was believed that Beethoven's popularity would not change.

http://www.bso.org/brands/symphony-hall/about-us/historyarchives/the-history-of-symphony-hall.aspx

Shortbread516 (talk) 04:22, 5 August 2014 (UTC)Shortbread516

Image selection

I'm confused as to why the only images included here are of a white Beethoven. He was described as dark-skinned by almost everyone who made note of his appearance, including Frederick Hertz, Emil Ludwig, And Alexander Thayer in his Life of Beethoven. If this is news, perhaps a small informative subsection on heritage might be included, detailing his mother's Moorish lineage.

File:Http://open.salon.com/files/deathmask21254123350.jpg

File:Http://open.salon.com/files/beethovenweb1254114366.jpg

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.162.88.196 (talk) 14:02, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

These claims seem apocryphal at best. --50.201.196.54 (talk) 22:57, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 November 2014

66.204.176.254 (talk) 19:20, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Not done: as you have not requested a change.
If you want to suggest a change, please request this in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ".
Please also cite reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 19:28, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Unacceptable notice

This sort of expropriation of power is unacceptable: After lengthy consideration at the Wikipedia Composers project, it has been determined that infoboxes are not appropriate for composer articles. Before adding an infobox, please review the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Composers/Infobox debates.

Wikipedia Composers does not decide blanket policy for articles within their scope. The policy concerning infoboxes is clear and reinforced by a recent ArbCom case: "The use of infoboxes is neither required nor prohibited for any article. Whether to include an infobox, which infobox to include, and which parts of the infobox to use, is determined through discussion and consensus among the editors at each individual article." - see WP:INFOBOXUSE. A new user has just had their good-faith addition of an infobox reverted with the edit summary "Revert to revision 635074684 dated 2014-11-23 08:04:44 by Moonraker: -infobox – see talk page archives and inline comment" which is tantamount to biting an inexperienced editor. By all means refer them to previous discussions in the talk page archives, but the onus is on the reverter to link to them if they want them to carry weight with new editors. To do otherwise is simple bullying and has no place in our project. --RexxS (talk) 14:27, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Nonetheless, it won't be getting an infobox, however the news is broken. Johnbod (talk) 16:34, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

I have no problem with a consensus that any particular article should not have an infobox. I do have a problem with a small, self-appointed group dictating their personal preference as if it were policy and biting inexperienced editors. I would hope you could support those sentiments, John. --RexxS (talk) 17:00, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Reverting edits on a high-profile article is not biting or bullying – it's part of WP:BRD. Restoring the contested edit before discussing it might be called disruptive. Calling an editor who has edited for almost 3 years "inexperienced" seems presumptive. The onus to justify changes is always on the editor making changes. The archives are easily searchable and show that there is no consensus for an infobox. Then there is Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Composers/Infoboxes RfC and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Composers/Infobox debates which were easily discoverable until the inline comment was removed. If an infobox is to be added to this article, changed consensus needs to be demonstrated. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 07:19, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Reverting edits with a mendacious edit summary is is both biting and bullying, especially when it is done thoughtlessly to an inexperienced editor. The editor in question, User:Harsh4101991 has a grand total of 338 edits to date including 7 in the last year. Expecting such a user to be familiar with old debates - and basing your entire reason for reversion on that assumption - is beyond reasonable. The onus falls squarely on you to demonstrate that a consensus exists, "determined through discussion and consensus among the editors at each individual article.", per policy.

Only a site-wide RfC can change our policy, not a four-year old discussion that came to no conclusion whatsoever on the question "To what extent can WikiProjects expect non-members to follow the former's preference regarding these?". It is ridiculous to suggest that the page has any bearing whatsoever on Harsh4101991's edits. Please read the other page you quote, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Composers/Infobox debates, a collection of debates held more than six years ago. Then please try to explain how ploughing through those tired generalisations and personal opinions could possibly help any editor new to the topic to reach any conclusion about whether an infobox would improve this article, or not. When you can't do that, then try to find the debate in this article's archives that demonstrates the "consensus among the editors at each individual article" that policy requires. Afterwards, don't bother apologising to me - it's Harsh4101991 that you owe that to. --RexxS (talk) 17:09, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

• Bravo. It appears the reign of the anti-Infobox bullies has finally come to an end. Jusdafax 09:30, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Infobox

According to Wikipedia:WikiProject Composers#Biographical infoboxes, shouldn't the deletion of this article's infobox be considered? I'm not there. Message me! 15:51, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

No. That page merely reflects the preferences of a small group and Wikiprojects don't decide site-wide policy. The actual guidance is at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Infoboxes #Using infoboxes in articles: "The use of infoboxes is neither required nor prohibited for any article. Whether to include an infobox, which infobox to include, and which parts of the infobox to use, is determined through discussion and consensus among the editors at each individual article." You should, of course, feel free to start a discussion to see if any consensus can be reached. HTH --RexxS (talk) 23:44, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm not saying the page should be changed by Wikiprojects, but it's customary not to include infoboxes in pages about classical composers, and in order to reach consistency, editors of this page could consider deleting the infobox. I'm not there. Message me! 15:23, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

With over 2.5 million infoboxes in 4.5 million articles (which includes stubs, lists, dab pages, etc. that we would not expect to have an infobox), it's customary to include infoboxes in any well-developed article. In fact, over 75% of Featured Articles have an infobox. There's nothing special about classical composers that precludes having an infobox. For consistency with the rest of the encyclopedia, editors of the other composer biographies should consider adding an infobox to them. --RexxS (talk) 16:26, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

"Neither required nor prohibited" - so there's no need to try to bully people who don't want them into changing their mind. Happy Christmas! Johnbod (talk) 16:38, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

"Neither required nor prohibited" also means that nobody should try to bully editors who do want them into changing their mind. It's perfectly symmetrical in the abstract. I'll cheerfully debate any real arguments, though - as long as you don't think that reasoned debate means bullying, of course. Merry Xmas to you too, John! --RexxS (talk) 16:47, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

I think that adding an infobox to this article simply because the majority of articles on WP have them is very loose justification for including one. I agree that neither side should feel bullied, which is why a discussion and consensus should be formed first before either adding or removing an infobox. (Careful in that snow RexxS; I believe the next stop is London town! Shovels and sand at the ready, chez Cassianto! ) Cassianto^Talk 13:32, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Cass - Merry Xmas and a Happy New Year! You're absolutely right that adding an infobox here just because a majority of other articles have them is a very weak reason - and I hope you'll agree that removing it just because a majority of composer bios don't have one is equally weak. There are absolutely genuine reasons why a particular article should not have an infobox: aesthetics or the difficulty of summarising nuanced information are the most obvious. And there are genuine reasons why an infobox enhances an article, but they are more generic, of course. What is needed here is an informed discussion about what value an infobox would bring to the article on 'Ludwig van Beethoven' and what disadvantages it would confer. I've looked in the archives, but could only find these:

• Talk:Ludwig van Beethoven/Archive 3#The new infobox (2006/7)
• Talk:Ludwig van Beethoven/Archive 5#Infobox (2013)

neither of which are particularly illuminating. Nevertheless, if you know of some that I've missed, they might be useful to point to when a new editor adds/removes or suggests addition/removal of an infobox. We should try to be kind to people who take an interest and (as you've probably noticed) I do get annoyed when fresh voices are dismissed with "because we've already made a blanket decision for all these articles". We'll never increase our editor pool until we take time to properly address other editors' views and concerns. In the meantime, I'll take care in the snow and I hope you will too! Cheers --RexxS (talk) 14:38, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

• Support Infobox - In my view the article is better with an infobox. Jusdafax 01:21, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose infobox – In my view the article is not better with an infobox. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 11:55, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
• Support Infobox - The whole opposition to Infoboxes is insubstantial, unencyclopedic, and unwikipedic. The infobox gives the article a more professional look and it sums up the essential info for people who do quick searches. ♆ CUSH ♆ 16:26, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
• Support infobox - you know me, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:07, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 December 2014

After a failed attempt in 1811 to perform his own Piano Concerto No. 5 (the "Emperor"), which was premiered by his student Carl Czerny, he never performed in public again until he conducted Ninth Symphony in 1824.

Above sentence under Loss of Hearing needs a "the" preceding "Ninth Symphony".

VBachani (talk) 09:26, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

 Done Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:36, 26 December 2014 (UTC)