Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Articles for creation: Difference between revisions

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Categorizing AfC submissions?

This is a ~~comment from the peanut gallery~~ follow-up from this thread at WT:MED, where Dodger67 suggested that some people there might poke through the pending AfC submissions on occasion to find relevant ones. I asked about topic tagging, and I see there's a thread above on this page describing a script for reviewers to apply wikiproject tags, but there appear to be over 1000 wikiprojects available for tagging.

IMO there are too many semi-active wikiprojects on very specific topics to generate much project buy-in in terms of regularly monitoring draft categories, and you'd be better off with a small number of general categories along the lines of Category:AfD debates, with one category assigned by the author at the time of submission. Not sure if AfC has already considered and rejected that approach for other reasons (maybe the submitters are too unreliable to trust with a list of 10 categories to pick from?). Speaking for myself, I'd be a lot more likely to occasionally look at a hypothetical Category:Science, technology, and medicine AfC submissions than to dig through an undifferentiated list of 4000, or keep track of draft categories for all of the various semi-active wikiprojects whose scope has some overlap with my interests. Having reviewers apply wikiproject tags is a good start, but it's an extra person's worth of effort and risks missing willing reviewers for niche topics because they're watching for drafts in the wrong niche. Opabinia regalis (talk) 06:08, 1 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I believe this idea has merit and should be properly considered. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 16:13, 3 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I like the idea too. Similar things have been proposed before (such as here). Now, in a world where the AFC queue stays under 200 (as appears to be the current situation), this isn't hugely necessary, but it's probable we'll be back to lengthy queues eventually. --LukeSurl^{t c} 08:37, 5 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, better safe than sorry. Should we start confecting those categories? What about Science, General Bios, Companies, Military topics, Music, and Miscellanea? Those are the most common I can think of, off the top of my head. FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 14:49, 5 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

My first thought was to replicate the AfD category structure below - which might allow for some interesting statistics eventually on the survival of AfC articles in different topic areas. I'm not currently active in the AfC process except as a person who responds sometimes when someone asks a wikiproject I follow about a draft, though, so maybe these topics don't map well to what people tend to submit here. It wouldn't really help much if 70% of the backlog is in one category. Opabinia regalis (talk) 23:11, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

cat=M	Media and music
cat=O	Organisation, corporation, or product
cat=B	Biographical
cat=S	Society topics
cat=W	Web or Internet
cat=G	Games or sports
cat=T	Science and technology
cat=F	Fiction and the arts
cat=P	Places and transportation
cat=I	Indiscernible or unclassifiable topic
cat=U	Debate not yet sorted

I think "Biographical" will need to be subdivided as the overwhelming majority of "not obvious junk" submissions are biographies. However if multiple categories can be used on a submission the intersections could be useful; Athlete = Biography + Sport, or Politician = Biography + Society, etc. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 06:35, 8 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That would be a good idea if it were possible to easily look at category intersections on-wiki. Maybe you just use the rest of the categories but have a separate flag for 'biography'? (And another one for 'living'? The resulting list of 'living people associated with organizations, corporations, or products' is probably low-hanging fruit for handling the backlog....) Opabinia regalis (talk) 09:24, 8 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

A "biography flag" within the topic categories makes a lot of sense because a biography is never only a biography, it always belongs to another topic category too. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 06:28, 9 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

As I suggest below, this could be done via the AFC Wikiproject template. It would be draft-class "task forces" so to speak and pages could be in multiple ones. Basically we follow WP Biography's sorting mechanism rather than AFD's. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 01:08, 11 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Implementation

This seems like an awesome idea. I'd just like a bit of clarification: this is going to take the form of parameters on the AfC submission template, right? I think an example of the new syntax would be {{AFC submission|d|bio|u=Ejaz92|ns=118|decliner=Flat Out|declinets=20150729045231|ts=20150726112721|cat=bio}} APerson (talk!) 23:07, 9 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, glad to hear! With the caveat that I don't currently use the AfC script and therefore don't know what I'm talking about: the final parameter should be any category except "bio", right? "bio" is a separate flag independent of the other categories? Opabinia regalis (talk) 02:53, 10 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Add it as a step in the Decline routine, except when the decline is for one of the quick fail criteria: hoax, test, blank, copyvio or attack. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 06:25, 10 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There should be capacity to add a category without failing the draft, i.e. for cases where you think "I'm not sure about this one, it could do with a reviewer more knowledgeable in this topic than myself". --LukeSurl^{t c} 08:44, 10 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes indeed, the ability to add the category without completing a review would be useful - perhaps in the Cleanup routine? Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 12:03, 10 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

But the cleanup routine doesn't work if the reviewer only adds a comment, or does it? FoCuS contribs; talk to me! 16:07, 10 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Cleanup runs either as a separate process or with decline, not with comment. Perhaps "Add draft category" should run with all processes except Accept and the Speedy declines? Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 07:02, 11 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds good. Can something easy like HotCat be used, i.e. so that we don't have to type the whole thing? FoCuS contribs; talk to me! 15:20, 11 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It's a short list of only ten categories, so selecting one from a menu makes even more sense. HotCat doesn't distinguish between valid and invalid categories, it "accepts" any category that exists. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 15:42, 11 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yup, a drop-down list would work just fine! FoCuS contribs; talk to me! 16:07, 11 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Is anyone now working on this? Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 14:16, 16 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone?????...... This is exactly why all the previous proposals have come to nothing. Where are the script coders? Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 18:59, 18 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Dodger67, I'll try and hack away at this, but Theopolisme is really the one who does major work on the script. APerson (talk!) 01:01, 19 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I haven't seen him around for a while, but given the current status of our backlog I think we can be lenient on deadlines, no?

FoCuS contribs; talk to me! 01:05, 19 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Not too relaxed, baclogs have a nasty habit of suddenly blowing up. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 16:09, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Just pinging the topic to keep it out of the archive. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 17:07, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like Theopolisme is on a long break, is there anyone else we can ping for this? Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 06:47, 16 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

We could just try WP:RAA and hope for the best, or try Wikipedia:WikiProject Categories. FoCuS contribs; talk to me! 13:48, 16 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

What we actually need is a competent script writer, not a random admin. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 12:00, 19 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I know, but that doesn't seem likely to happen. FoCuS contribs; talk to me! 19:35, 19 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe this would be a good project for the WMF Community Tech group? Opabinia regalis (talk) 03:07, 20 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Good idea! We cannot allow progress to be held up by the unavailability of only one editor. Creating the categories is trivially easy, the hard part is updating the script to implement the categorisation correctly. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 09:16, 20 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The AFCH scrip source code is at https://github.com/WPAFC/afch-rewrite if anyone might be interested in updating it to add the categorization feature. The main contributor User:Theopolisme last edited en.WP in August. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 16:45, 27 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest an alternative implementation below. My only concern is that this information would be lost when these articles are posted to mainspace so I suggest using the AFC Wikiproject template instead. That's more straight-forward and we'd basically be set up similar to how the biography project set ups its articles (but only within draftspace for now). -- Ricky81682 (talk) 17:20, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Once the article is in mainspace the issue is resolved and thus the sorting will no longer be relevant - the relevant subject WikiProjects will handle it. AFC information is supposed to be "lost" once a draft has been accepted into mainspace. Once it's out of draft-space it's no longer our baby - only the AFC WikiProject template is left to show that the article came through the AFC process. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 08:41, 12 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Alternative implementation proposal

Can I make an alternative implementation proposal? There already exists Template:WikiProject Articles for creation and in particular Category:Draft-Class AFC articles. Instead, we can have the AFC Wikiproject template contain the categories and create subcategories within the Draft-Class category so that only the draft-space articles are categorized. It'll be like what WikiProject Biography does, is less complicated than a wholesale change to the AFC template and we can just ask them for help on setting up the class mask for our template. It'll be an additional step on the back-end but we'll also have better stats on the former AFC articles that get approved. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 18:12, 4 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The major problem with this idea is that the vast majority of wikiprojects do not correctly handle or even recognize Draft-class at all, so they will never actually get the "message" that drafts relevant to them exist. Basically we would have to convince each project to properly implement the relevant class mask, but even finding someone that knows what a class mask is, in each and every wikiproject, is a huge problem. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 22:17, 4 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This is exactly the problem I started off with. There are too many wikiprojects with overlapping interest areas, for one thing, and a lot of them are only lightly active. Updating class masks for wikiproject banners for any project that doesn't a) already use draft-class, or b) explicitly opt out is another thing someone ought to do by bot eventually, but probably won't. Opabinia regalis (talk) 03:14, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm just suggesting implementing this categorization using the AFC wikiproject template and just that template for now. Adding a "draft-class=" parameter to Template:WikiProject Articles for creation and Categories like "Draft-class AFC articles (biographies)", etc. would be relatively straight-forward, easier I imagine than changing the main AFC template. I'm suggesting it because it would be pretty easy to add that template to every page as people categorize articles. The fact that many other projects don't use this isn't relevant, not every draft is going to have every single Wikiproject associated with it (most articles are severely lacking). The other option loses that information when it's put into mainspace. Here, because the template would remain, it's possible if there's interest in keeping that around. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 17:06, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

But your idea misses the entire point of what we're trying to do here - getting experienced members of subject area wikiprojects directly involved in improving and reviewing drafts relevant to them. Currently if we need a subject specialist's help we have to identify a relevant project, check if it is actually "alive" and then post a request on the project's talk page - which all takes far too much time, particularly during backlogs. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 14:00, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not saying we do anything with other wikiprojects. I don't care about them, it's an alternative implementation for the sorting. The AFC Wikiproject tags are already being used automatically when the page is published. We could add it to the helper script as part of the review on the page itself. All these articles would qualify under the AFC wikiproject. All of these already could already be placed under the draft-space of the wikiproject. Then I'm suggesting we add a workforce to so speak for the AFC project of "Draft-class" or "Draft-group" or "Draft-bio=" or whatever (allow for two or more categories for various articles if we'd like) and then categorize the articles via the AFC Wikiproject (which is a subset of all AFC submissions at the moment). -- Ricky81682 (talk) 18:38, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"Not doing anything with other WikiProjects" makes absolutely no sense at all - that it the entire point of what we're trying to do here. The whole objective of this sorting scheme is to get subject specialists involved in reviewing by presenting subject-specific projects with sorted lists of drafts so that they can pick out the ones relevant to them. Sorry, Ricky81682, you're really not understanding the point, the only reason for sorting drafts by topic is to get subject specialists involved. This issue has a very long history here going back several years, I surmise that you're probably too new/inexperienced at the inner workings of AFC to really grok it. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 08:35, 12 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No I understand the point: we create subject specialties here and have people review the articles here on a subject-specific basis. I read all the prior discussions. My point is that instead of looking at how AFD does their subject specialties, we can look at how WP Biography does it and implement their system. AFD has specialists but it's very transitory as those discussions last a week or a few at best. AFD also only allows for a single category per article. In contrast, here our work will be months if not years and most articles can be in multiple categories. I agree with you on the premise but instead of adding to the complexity of the AFC template, I'm suggesting an alternative that I think could be implemented fairly easily (one that is already done). Look, if we're looking for specialists only for the review stage of articles, then I agree that the Wikiproject template seems unnecessary and exceedingly complicated. However, if we're looking for specialists to assist overall on articles, then I'm making another suggestion. Looking at APerson's suggestion, I'd say that adding it as the second parameter in the middle of the template (absent a default to ignore it) could mean that every page will pop up a weird error since the second parameter isn't current set that way. It's a minority opinion here and to me, more likely to be done to me than just waiting around for someone to go and edit the AFC template but it seems like there's no interest in it so I don't see we're doing much other than arguing past each other here. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:50, 12 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Private request for review

As a regular around here, I know that I could create an article in mainspace, however because I'm interested in the subject and I volunteered to create the article if sources were fetched, I decided to use AFC to help immunize the potential COI that I may have. If people could take a look at Draft:GORUCK. I'd like to see what people thing before I actually put it into the AFC review queue (or just move it to mainspace) so that I can have a very successful page creation. Hasteur (talk) 03:54, 25 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Hasteur, the "mission statement" in the first sentence of the "Equipment manufacturing" section should be dropped, if no independent source mentions it, then "nobody cares". Generally I think the draft lacks context; you mention no dates or places (not even the country!), it could do with more specific details such as the actual nature of the "events". The section headings are not in sentence case. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 17:03, 27 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Change the article name

how can i change the article name that i created? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lentech23 (talk • contribs) 17:38, 14 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This wouild have been a better question for the help desk, but I have changed the name to Jason L. N. Campbell. Once you have been here long enough to be come autoconfirmed you will see a move tab that will let you change the name of things. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 20:46, 16 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Repeated Resubmissions

Sometimes when I review an article, I see that it has already been submitted and declined multiple times, and that the concerns of the reviewers have not been addressed. Maybe the editor just doesn't understand the guidelines for acceptance, or maybe the editor is hoping to get an easier reviewer on resubmission. In any case, resubmitting an article multiple times without addressing the concerns of the reviewers wastes the time of the reviewers. Is there any criterion for deleting such draft articles? (Should I ask this at the Wikipedia Help Desk?) Robert McClenon (talk) 20:30, 19 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Why would you delete such draft? We should create a template for warning the editor on their talk page that they should not resubmit a draft without addressing the issues. Supdiop (T🔹C) 20:39, 19 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Robert McClenon and Supdiop: There is a point when one makes a decision that WP:MFD is going to be the next useful step in the development of the draft. It results either in the deletion of or the improvement of the draft. Either is fine. We cannot save them all.

A template for the user's talk page sounds fine, but good, even elaborate, comments on the draft itself are far more helpful. We have to accept that some editors are, or chose to be, unable to make the changes we need in order for the draft to have a better than 60% (some say 50%, but I aim higher) of surviving a deletion process after acceptance. Specific advice is always better than a template.

One could also take the draft forward one's self if one wished. Fiddle Faddle 21:05, 19 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Do you mean that the author of a draft can take it forward by directly moving it into article space, or that a reviewer can take a draft forward? The former is true, in which case the author is taking the risk that the article will be nominated for deletion. It is true that a reviewer can take a draft forward, as in by accepting it, but only if the reviewer thinks that he or she has improved the article to where they are willing to be an author of it. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:16, 19 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

My real question is indeed about when a draft article should be taken to WP:MFD as a last resort. I agree that MFD is a last resort, but a few editors just don't seem to understand how to respond to comments. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:16, 19 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that specific advice is better than a template, but, as noted, specific comments in the draft itself are more helpful than comments on the author's talk page. (For one thing, comments by previous reviewers are seen by subsequent reviewers.) Putting specific comments in the decline beyond the menu-selection is helpful. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:16, 19 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The real question is whether there is a rule of thumb as to how many declines or how much time indicates that the draft isn't getting anywhere and should go to MFD. Maybe if the article has already been declined three times, on the fourth submission, should it be MFD's instead? Robert McClenon (talk) 21:16, 19 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"One could also take the draft forward one's self if one wished" I was referring to the reviewer, though any editor after achieving confirmed status may move any unprotected article anywhere.

My view on timescale is that this is an individual judgement call. If I believe there is no sensible other option, I consider MFD. This is very context dependent. It is not fatal to a draft, after all. If I am in error then the community tells me quite quickly. Fiddle Faddle 22:05, 19 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

If the reference was to the reviewer taking the draft forward, that would imply that the reviewer had improved the draft. That, of course, implies that it is a draft that the reviewer thinks deserves an article, but needs improvement first. In some cases, an article isn't deserved, and those are the cases I had in mind. Thank you. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:14, 20 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Often, it doesn't matter how responsive or how much work an author puts into a draft, it is not going to be an acceptable topic for a Wikipedia article due to WP:N, WP:TOOSOON, WP:NOT or other such guidelines. If the author is unresponsive to this reviewer feedback continues to resubmit, I think WP:MFD (with ample consideration for WP:BITE) is an appropriate step. As a reviewer you should research the topic and make the case for deletion WP:BEFORE nominating. ~Kvng (talk) 14:49, 20 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It's been my operating procedure that if I see the draft has been declined for the exact same reason multiple times, I take a peek into the history of the draft to see if the submitter is making progress towards the draft being acceptable. I also look to see if the submitter has been warned before that the next time they submit it without resolving the decline reason that the draft will be taken to MFD. If I don't see forward progress and the submitter has been warned already, I nominate for MFD as it's already wasted multiple volunteer's time in reviewing it without improvement. If the submitter hasn't been warned, I give them a stern warning about what could happen the next time they submit it without fixing the issue. The idea is to discourage submitters for shopping around looking for someone to approve their draft. Hasteur (talk) 01:39, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is that editors usually can just create the article in articlespace anyways and ignore all the warnings. For example, Draft:NanoHealth was rejected twice as promotional but the editor didn't wait on a third submission and instead created it at NanoHealth. I deleted the draft under G13 but instead had to restore and merge the whole mess together. It was still promotional and has been cleaned up but still it's a nuisance. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:31, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Shrevin

So looking through User talk:Drvasanthms' talk page and its all on the same thing: Shrevin. They keep making articles and draft pages on that subject for years, with them always getting deleted. I don't know what to make of that but its overall unproductive. But I don't know if that violates anything. I thought it would be best to make a comment on this here because more than likely after Draft:SHREVIN and Draft:Shrevin get deleted another draft about Shrevin will be made. GamerPro64 16:03, 22 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, GamerPro64, I have sent both to WP:MFD and offered a suggestion on the user's talk page about the creation of inappropriate page. Fiddle Faddle 16:11, 22 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 25 October 2015

This edit request to Wikipedia:Articles for creation has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

‹ The template Edit semi-protected is being considered for merging. ›

113.167.90.189 (talk) 15:33, 25 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Cannolis (talk) 15:41, 25 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Is this the same IP that's been doing this every so often? FoCuS contribs; talk to me! 19:25, 25 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

How to submit a draft

Sorry for this basic question but I've looked all over this WikiProject as well as the Article Wizard and I can't find information on what template is used to submit a draft for review. I'm reviewing a lot of abandoned AFC drafts and I found one in good shape that had never been submitted for review and I'd like to get it in the pipeline in case it meets your criteria. Thanks. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:06, 26 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

If you look at {{AFC submission|T}}, you'll just need to add {{subst:submit}} to submit it. If there's no header, it's kind of confusing. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 21:29, 26 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Ricky81682. Here's a second question. I was working on Category:G13 eligible AfC submissions and Template:AFC submission/draftnew/testcases and Template:AFC draft/testcases appear in the category when they are obviously not abandoned drafts. But I'm afraid that an admin who is not alert might delete these pages. Is there any way to remove these templates from this category? Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 12:40, 27 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Revision as of 21:29, 26 October 2015 edit Ricky81682 (talk \| contribs) Extended confirmed users 161,003 edits →‎How to submit a draft ← Previous edit		Revision as of 12:41, 27 October 2015 edit undo Liz (talk \| contribs) Autopatrolled, Administrators 688,990 edits →‎How to submit a draft: Comment Next edit →
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	: If you look at <nowiki>{{AFC submission\|T}}</nowiki>, you'll just need to add <nowiki>{{subst:submit}}</nowiki> to submit it. If there's no header, it's kind of confusing. -- [[User:Ricky81682\|Ricky81682]] ([[User talk:Ricky81682\|talk]]) 21:29, 26 October 2015 (UTC)		: If you look at <nowiki>{{AFC submission\|T}}</nowiki>, you'll just need to add <nowiki>{{subst:submit}}</nowiki> to submit it. If there's no header, it's kind of confusing. -- [[User:Ricky81682\|Ricky81682]] ([[User talk:Ricky81682\|talk]]) 21:29, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
			::Thanks, [[User:Ricky81682\|Ricky81682]]. Here's a second question. I was working on [[:Category:G13 eligible AfC submissions]] and [[Template:AFC submission/draftnew/testcases]] and [[Template:AFC draft/testcases]] appear in the category when they are obviously not abandoned drafts. But I'm afraid that an admin who is not alert might delete these pages. Is there any way to remove these templates from this category? <font face="Papyrus" size="3" color="#800080">[[User:Liz\|'''''L'''''iz]]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">[[Special:Contributions/Liz\|'''''Read!''''']] [[User talk:Liz\|'''''Talk!''''']]</font></sup> 12:40, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

Revision as of 12:41, 27 October 2015