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== Islamic terrorism ==
== Islamic terrorism ==

{{collapse top|Obviously [[WP:TRUE]], but not according to Wikipedia.--[[User:Loomspicker|Loomspicker]] ([[User talk:Loomspicker|talk]]) 02:22, 14 November 2015 (UTC)}}
Can you believe that users [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=November_2015_Paris_attacks&diff=690540913&oldid=690540865 Rklawton] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=November_2015_Paris_attacks&diff=690540337&oldid=690540278 Firebrace] think this isn't actually an Islamic terrorist attack? Mindless wiki-bureaucracy.--[[User:Loomspicker|Loomspicker]] ([[User talk:Loomspicker|talk]]) 01:28, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
Can you believe that users [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=November_2015_Paris_attacks&diff=690540913&oldid=690540865 Rklawton] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=November_2015_Paris_attacks&diff=690540337&oldid=690540278 Firebrace] think this isn't actually an Islamic terrorist attack? Mindless wiki-bureaucracy.--[[User:Loomspicker|Loomspicker]] ([[User talk:Loomspicker|talk]]) 01:28, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
Jinx. --[[User:Monochrome Monitor|<small style="font: 13px Courier New">Monochrome</small>]]<big>_</big>[[User talk:Monochrome Monitor|<small style="font: 13px Courier New">Monitor</small>]] 01:29, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
Jinx. --[[User:Monochrome Monitor|<small style="font: 13px Courier New">Monochrome</small>]]<big>_</big>[[User talk:Monochrome Monitor|<small style="font: 13px Courier New">Monitor</small>]] 01:29, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

Revision as of 02:28, 14 November 2015

Contested deletion

Initial speedy deletion was posted by a passing troll, nothing substantial. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 22:11, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This page should not be speedily deleted because... (your reason here) --LjL (talk) 22:00, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No, obviously this page should not be deleted. LjL (talk) 22:00, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This page should not be speedily deleted because it is a rapidly changing current news event, an article certain to be expanded as more details come in. --22:01, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

This page should not be speedily deleted because... (your reason here) --104.129.196.75 (talk) 22:02, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

20 people dead is not a trivial or insignificant matter. Looks like someone is trying to suppress news they don't like.

It's not going to happen. These breaking news articles are often put up for deletion in their early stages before their significance becomes apparent. Gareth E Kegg (talk) 22:07, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Number of deaths

This is varying widely. Some say 18, some say 26, I counted 56 from the three locations. epic genius (talk) 22:23, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This is to be expected. The attacks are ongoing as far as I'm aware and news just broke within the hour. Numbers are going to fluctuate wildly for a while. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 22:24, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Let's just remove it from the infobox till, say, tomorrow. It's too widely varying to be stable. epic genius (talk) 22:30, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
CNN (US) is reporting at least 60 deaths. Juneau Mike (talk) 22:34, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Charlie Hebdo shooting

Can we avoid mentioning this in any way, until an actual proof that those were connected surfaces? Thanks, Hołek ҉ 22:26, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It's fair enough to mention it in "See also". It was in Paris, close in time, and in related places there. LjL (talk) 22:29, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Related places? North-east Paris is a vast and diverse area. Nick-D (talk) 22:40, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It is not right to mention it before these attacks have been definitively linked to radical Islamists. Gareth E Kegg (talk) 22:44, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The terrorists shouted "Allahu Akbar" and "This is for Syria".--Stefvh96 (talk) 23:03, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You have a point, but it was a recent major event of the same type in the same city, so we definitely need to mention it. Anyway, I added a see also section with Terrorism in the European Union, then added List of terrorist incidents in France. Sorry for the mess it's going to cause. :-\ --Kizor 23:00, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's a related thing, because it happens in Paris. Doesn't matter who's attacking now. The point is that this is happening in the same place, in the same year. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gerhidt (talk • contribs) 23:19, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
And for roughly the same reasons it sounds like. Legacypac (talk) 00:23, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
And we need reliable citations establishing such a link... Gareth E Kegg (talk) 00:24, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Live coverage from French TV

I have cited French TV - ABC News is streaming it live. The same stats are rotating at the bottom - http://abcnews.go.com/live —МандичкаYO 😜 22:32, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

France24 article, "WATCH LIVE" is at the top of the site

Live coverage from Reddit here too the thread

article name

Please stop moving the article... November 2015 Paris attacks is fine and the common name. Even French TV is only referencing Paris as the location.[1] —МандичкаYO 😜 23:01, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Folks, please stop moving the article back and forth. Please consult Wikipedia:Article_titles#Use_commonly_recognizable_names, which would argue for "Paris" as the name, even if there were events technically outside Paris. There is precedent with Beltway sniper attacks in Washington DC, where there were incidents not necessarily just inside the Beltway. -- Fuzheado | Talk 23:00, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you ... please note the image I linked above. It's just Paris. —МандичкаYO 😜 23:04, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Can we stop moving the page please? If you asked a casual reader where these attacks occurred, they would say Paris, not the perhaps geographically correct Île-de-France. Unlike the Île-de-France attacks earlier in the year, the November 13 attacks have not spread outside the City of Paris. Gareth E Kegg (talk) 23:01, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

👍 Fuzheado likes this. - see above

Suggest Page Move Protection Legacypac (talk) 00:24, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Please add a Timeline of events as a section

BFMTV online has an abreviated timeline for events which is a useful start.

Europe 1 Radio has a timeline for events, too.

Reactions

Can we possibly, as a mark of respect for the seriousness of these events, refrain from adding the anodyne condolences of every world leader as they come in over the next 24 hours? I know there is a natural tendency to add every single one in full, with little flag icons sometimes, but our mission as an encyclopedia is to report the facts as soberly as we can. We are not a collection of quotations or a book of condolence. Please let's remember this. --John (talk) 23:08, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'll be doing what I can to curb that. I fully agree that these message of condolences are not worth listing and have tried numerous times to stop them on various articles. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 23:10, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support these memorials are invariably edited into a condensed version. Perhaps we can use the talk page to maintain them with the aim to facilitate future editing? Rklawton (talk) 23:21, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support but @HJ Mitchell: if that's what the "NO QUOTES PLEASE" comment meant, then it should be clartified, because it's after Hollande statements, and quotes from him would be fine. LjL (talk) 23:24, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Partial Support I like RKlawton's plan, there are inevitably dozens of these responses. John, everybody's voluntary hard work on this article is the ultimate mark of respect. Gareth E Kegg (talk) 23:36, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - Change this to an RFC, agreed with reactions. Adog104 Talk to me 23:56, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, as was the case back when I was active and around for the Boston Marathon bombings and the 777 that crashed on landing at KSFO. I was planning on WP:BOLDly removing that section just now, and came to the talk page for consensus; given the supports above, I think I'm just going to go do it (and then take a hands-off approach if anyone feels like reverting). Ignatzmice•talk 00:13, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: The little flags are pretty, but ultimately harmful, as these lists of quotes tend to cause certain types of biases, clutter the page, are questionable in context of WP:NOTNEWS, and overall are related to multitude of other issues. Ceosad (talk) 00:21, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: Only make specific note of particularly notable responses (i.e. military action, actual aid rendered, ect.). Titanium Dragon (talk) 00:53, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - of course, they are reactions from heads of state and international messages, and most importantly they receive significant news coverage. Should be its own article. —МандичкаYO 😜 01:09, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - of course, reactions by e.g. NATO, EU, Germany and the USA should be mentioned here. And eventually they should be moved to their own article.--Oneiros (talk) 01:18, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support no, we can add them at a later date.--Loomspicker (talk) 01:43, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support These sections add nothing of value for readers: it can be taken for granted that national leaders, etc, condemn terrorist attacks. Nick-D (talk) 02:08, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Page protection?

This article has attracted several IPs intent on adding bad or unsourced information. Does everyone agree we're due for partial protection here? Rklawton (talk) 23:18, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It was semi-protected, then someone removed it. - DarkNITE (talk)
Already restored it. It got lost when the page was moved multiple times earlier. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 23:24, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No! Yet again a knee jerk response resulting in quick SP. All I see are loads of incorrect auto tagging of edits as "possible vandalism" followed up by inappropriate reverting by editors who haven't checked the edit. It doesn't take you protection warriors long to act, does it? 31.52.166.41 (talk) 23:25, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It's definitely warranted. There's been a lot of subtle vandalism that gets lost quickly in the flurry of edits. Semi-protecting helps keep the article in check. There's always the option to create an account, you know... ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 23:27, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Bullshit! I already have an account and can edit the article. The only thing you warriors keep in check is the pesky IPs that you'd like to remove completely anyway. 31.52.166.41 (talk) 23:29, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
There are lots of eyes on the page right now, I'm not sure protection is warranted. -- Luk talk 23:29, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly. It's well known that articles lie this bring in loads of new editors, some of whom stick around - unless the warriors SP it of course, as they invariably do with this type of article. 31.52.166.41 (talk) 23:31, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Please add a map!

For somebody not familiar with the layout of Paris this would be a real help. In particular as the attacks seem to be spread across the complete city. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.24.74.39 (talk) 23:21, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Map has been included in article by another user. Adog104 Talk to me 23:35, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks!

Updates to be added

Theatre

15 dead and ~60 dead in the Bataclan theatre by 23.30. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34814203

Are you sure? Last I heard, it was 35 dead. I guess we'll need to see the dust settle. DARTHBOTTO talk•cont 23:36, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think they meant 15 dead and ~60 held hostage. Anyway, that BBC link was in the article, but thanks anyway. --Kizor 23:39, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It is very confused and possibly out of date.92.16.213.2 (talk) 23:51, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Fox News is reporting at least 40. Let's stand by. DARTHBOTTO talk•cont 00:04, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

State of Emergency and borders closed. Paris authorities have asked people to stay indoors. Military personnel are being deployed across Paris. All by by 23.30. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34814203 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.16.213.2 (talk) 23:43, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

~100 people dead. Agence France Presse. -- Luk talk 00:16, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Seven shooting sites: Rue de Charonne had shootings, too

Over 100 shots at La Belle Équipe, a bar at the corner of rue Faudherbe and rue Charonne Liberation article: http://www.liberation.fr/france/2015/11/13/fusillades-a-paris-ce-que-l-on-sait_1413322

Cafe and a kebab restaurant had shootings, too. Europe 1 article: http://www.europe1.fr/faits-divers/attaque-rue-de-charonne-ils-ont-tire-principalement-dans-des-restaurants-2620153

Liberaton has map of shooting sites and includes Rue de Charonne. Map:http://www.liberation.fr/france/2015/11/13/les-lieux-des-fusillades-a-paris_1413319 Updates: http://www.liberation.fr/france/2015/11/13/fusillade-dans-le-10e-arrondissement-de-paris_1413313

Please add the 9:50am phone call of a Bomb threat to kill Germany national squad

From Daily Mail article,

Not certain if its related to attacks yet. Adog104 Talk to me 23:55, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • That would need a better source. --John (talk) 23:59, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Responses

Hollande said there were “unprecedented terror attacks under way in Paris” and authorities have warned residents to stay inside. http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/nov/13/shootings-reported-in-eastern-paris-live

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/13/us-france-shooting-un-idUSKCN0T22S720151113#BxZAfrD8tLVeuvPA.99 http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=52552#.VkaI1L_fPIV http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/burundi/11993785/British-UN-envoy-warns-of-possible-genocide-in-Burundi.html http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/13/us-france-shooting-un-idUSKCN0T22S720151113#ls0Ov8tSXjRJS5a2.97 http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/13/us-france-shooting-un-idUSKCN0T22S720151113#BxZAfrD8tLVeuvPA.99 92.16.213.2 (talk) 01:25, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Seven attacks

Europe 1 reports seven attacks. http://www.europe1.fr/faits-divers/attentats-a-paris-des-attaques-menees-sur-sept-points-differents-2620171

Locations

  • au Stade de France,à Saint-Denis
  • 50 boulevard Voltaire, dans la salle de spectacle du Bataclan où une prise d'otages était en cours dans la nuit (three suspects killed by security forces)
  • 231 boulevard Voltaire (Japan Eat, at the corner of boulevard Voltaire and rue du Chemin Vert)
  • au coin de de la rue Bichat et de la rue Alibert (Le Carillon bar at 18 rue Alibert, and Le Petit Cambodge restaurant at 20 rue Alibert)
  • 124 avenue Parmentier (Domino's Pizza, at corner of avenue Parmentier and rue de La Fontaine au Roi)
  • 40 boulevard Beaumarchais (Le Barbier de Bastille, between rue du Chemin Vert and rue du Pas de La Mule)
  • 92 rue de Charonne (over 100 shots at La Belle Équipe, a bar at corner of rue Faidherbe and rue de Charonne).

BFMTV has updated map: http://www.bfmtv.com/societe/carte-ou-ont-eu-lieu-les-attaques-terroristes-930010.html

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.91.241.108 (talk) 00:11, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Guns

Paris shooting: Scores killed and injured after 'Kalashnikov and grenade attacks' across French capital with dozens of hostages taken. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11995227/Paris-shooting-Many-feared-dead-live.html 92.16.213.2 (talk) 00:10, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Bataclan Death count

Over one hundred dead inside Bataclan following police raid. https://twitter.com/AFP/status/665321462442528768 (talk)

New

  1. At least 60 dead in series of Paris terror attacks.http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3317776/Machine-gun-fire-heard-central-Paris-police-flood-scene-not-far-Charlie-Hebdo-shootings.html#ixzz3rQ9iYG1w
  2. Kalashnikov-wielding gunman opens fire in restaurant. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3317776/Machine-gun-fire-heard-central-Paris-police-flood-scene-not-far-Charlie-Hebdo-shootings.html#ixzz3rQ9iYG1w
  3. 100 hostages are taken at theatre. 2 suicide bombs detonate near entrance E of the the Stade de France. Gunfire at shopping centre http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3317776/Machine-gun-fire-heard-central-Paris-police-flood-scene-not-far-Charlie-Hebdo-shootings.html#ixzz3rQ9iYG1w
  4. At least 60 people have been killed and several wounded in a series of terror attacks in the heart of Paris tonighthttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3317776/Machine-gun-fire-heard-central-Paris-police-flood-scene-not-far-Charlie-Hebdo-shootings.html#ixzz3rQ9iYG1w
  5. 11 were killed in restaurant shootout on Rue Bichat, close to where Charlie Hebdo shootings occurred in January.  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3317776/Machine-gun-fire-heard-central-Paris-police-flood-scene-not-far-Charlie-Hebdo-shootings.html#ixzz3rQ9iYG1w
  6. Another 15  killed in the Bataclan concert hall where terrorists are said to be holding around 100 people hostage.http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3317776/Machine-gun-fire-heard-central-Paris-police-flood-scene-not-far-Charlie-Hebdo-shootings.html#ixzz3rQ9iYG1w
  7. The terrorists shouted 'Allah Akbar' and 'this is for Syria' as they burst in and opened fire, witnesses have said.
  8. French President Francois Hollande declared state of emergency for whole country and shut all of its borders. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3317776/Machine-gun-fire-heard-central-Paris-police-flood-scene-not-far-Charlie-Hebdo-shootings.html#ixzz3rQ9iYG1w

As of 23.0092.16.213.2 (talk) 00:32, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]


Metro lines closed: 3, 5, 8, 9, 11

The lines 3, 5, 8, 9, 11 pass through arr 10, 11. Europe 1 article: http://www.europe1.fr/faits-divers/attaques-a-paris-cinq-lignes-de-metro-coupees-2620161

I added that. epic genius (talk) 02:10, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Dead

‘It’s a horror’: Hollande orders French borders closed after Paris terror attack leaves at least 140 dead. http://news.nationalpost.com/news/shootout-at-paris-restaurant-leaves-several-dead-police As of 01.0092.16.213.2 (talk) 01:17, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Current attack

There is a current operation ongoing, the paris police said it already finished; 3 terrorists were dead but also possibly some hostages. Can someone add this subsection? 2A02:8388:1600:A880:BE5F:F4FF:FECD:7CB2 (talk) 00:03, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The operation's covered under November 2015 Paris attacks#Bataclan theatre shooting and hostage-taking. --Kizor 00:05, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Les Halles attack

This one does not seem to have happened, there are no confirmations or even hints on it on any major French online medias (at 01:00). Hervegirod (talk) 00:09, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There have been reports of a Media Blackout, as that is allowed within French Law, so it may have occured. 68.194.210.70 (talk) 00:17, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

mm, there were no blackout on every other attacks tonight, so IMO this information is not sufficiently verified/ sourced Hervegirod (talk) 00:21, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Targets

As of 23.30.92.16.213.2 (talk) 00:16, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Curfew

Aside from the cited CTV News, I don't see any source mentioning a curfew in effect. Other sources say that police have recommended that citizens stay home: that's not a curfew. The claim it's the first time since 1944 adds to the drama of it, but I'd rather remove it if uncomfirmed by other sources. Anybody has any? --LjL (talk) 00:10, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, no curfew, just a strong recommendation from the authorities, which seems rather sensible considering the situation. Hervegirod (talk) 00:12, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think it should be changed to reflect this. epic genius (talk) 00:15, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
A State of Emergency.92.16.213.2 (talk) 00:17, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
More sources stating that a curfew is in effect: Telegraph, Bangkok Post, New York Daily News. --AmaryllisGardener talk 00:20, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The Telegraph is just reporting what CTV says, so it's null. The other two also make sure to mention it's the first time since WW2, so they look like they copycatted too. --LjL (talk) 00:25, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No curfew would be shocking given the situation. We need strong sources to say no curfew Legacypac (talk) 00:27, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Don't be ridiculous, this is not America. Curfews aren't declared willy-nilly. --LjL (talk) 00:29, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
See: "Attaques terroristes à Paris : une centaine de morts, l'état d'urgence décrété". Le Figaro. La Mairie de Paris appelle les habitants de la capitale à rester chez eux
These are not French medias informations. I'm French, and it seems that they did not understand correctly what was said by the French officials. The state of emergency was officially announced by the French President, but no curfew. Just a strong recommendation, and not by the police, but by the Paris Mayor First Deputy.Hervegirod (talk) 00:27, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly. This is American-style nonsense. --LjL (talk) 00:29, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Reuters seems to be confirming that a curfew is in effect. Ceannlann gorm (talk) 00:46, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I bet everyone is now just echoing the original CTV claim (and quite possibly Wikipedia's). Look at the local sources, and what the authorities actually said. LjL (talk) 00:51, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The French TV said there was a curfew. I don't know if it's throughout the city or just the north. —МандичкаYO 😜 00:52, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
OK it seems like even the French don't all know what's going on what "State of emergency" means since the current legislation regarding this was only established 10 years ago. Looks like they are describing a "curfew" at Orly. —МандичкаYO 😜 00:59, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"State of emergency" (état d'urgence) allows the possibility of curfew but doesn't declare curfew. Otherwise, the entire country would be under curfew, since the state of emergency was declared country-wide. See French Wikipedia. LjL (talk) 01:06, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, it says all over the place that certain (but just half a dozen) metro lines were closed. Surely, if there city-wide curfew, all lines would be closed, as people would simply not be allowed to be outside? LjL (talk) 01:08, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

France closing borders for the first time since?

I read in one of the references that Hollande's decision to closing the country's borders is the first time since the second world war. However now I read elsewhere it is the first time since the 70s. // Psemmler (talk) 00:18, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There seems to be total confusion within the French Government; only a few minutes ago the Foreign Ministry (or someone at it acting on their own initiative) issued a statement saying that "Airports continue to function. Airline flights and train services will be assured". (Via Reuters) Ceannlann gorm (talk) 00:31, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Liberation aritcle: http://www.liberation.fr/france/2015/11/14/que-signifie-la-fermeture-des-frontieres_1413339

OK92.16.213.2 (talk) 00:44, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Current death-toll

The Death-toll should be edited to reflect the current reports (100+ Dead at theatre + 43-60 elsewhere) https://twitter.com/AFP/status/665321462442528768 68.194.210.70 (talk) 00:20, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Pretty sure we cannot use Twitter. Do you have anything in a reliable source? I also saw a report of 100+ dead in the theatre on live news but we can't use that as a source. Popcorntastesgood (talk) 00:29, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It is AFP that posted on twitter, Ill see if theres a Article with that amount 68.194.210.70 (talk) 00:30, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yahoo News has those figures in an Article http://news.yahoo.com/around-100-dead-attack-paris-concert-venue-police-001919765.html;_ylt=AwrC0CbWf0ZWjj8AvTPQtDMD;_ylu=X3oDMTByOHZyb21tBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg-- 68.194.210.70 (talk) 00:32, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Sky News in the UK is reporting provisional total of 118 dead at the Bataclan. -- Arwel Parry (talk) 00:56, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
‘It’s a horror’: Hollande orders French borders closed after Paris terror attack leaves at least 140 dead. http://news.nationalpost.com/news/shootout-at-paris-restaurant-leaves-several-dead-police As of 01.0092.16.213.2 (talk) 01:20, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Beirut attacks

Please can links stop being added to the page linking these attacks with the 2015 Beirut bombings. no group has claimed responsibility for the Parisian attacks, and though the attacks appear to be similar in nature, it appears they have occurred coincidentally. Gareth E Kegg (talk) 00:20, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Connection to ISIS

How should we approach the gunmens' purported recruitment by ISIS? There is secondhand coverage from twitter accounts and on live news.

I believe it should go in a separate section once there's enough sources to support it The war on shrugs (talk) 00:29, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Reliable published sources as ever. Gareth E Kegg (talk) 00:26, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Just wait until an RS publishes something, won't be long if there is any link whatsoever. Popcorntastesgood (talk) 00:27, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Right now the article mentions that an 'eye witness' told journalists that the attackers at Bataclan said something about Syria. Julien Pierce, a journalist who was actually present says they said nothing at all. Considering that the 'eye witness' in question, also mentioned five to six attackers (the French Police claims there were three.) could we either maybe remove the 'said something about Syria' thing or else add that Julien Pierce contradicted this? Robrecht (talk) 01:49, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Around 100 dead in attack on Paris concert hall: Police source

Around 100 dead in attack on Paris concert hall: Police source. http://www.france24.com/en/breaking/20151114-around-100-dead-attack-paris-concert-hall-police-source

New- "It’s a horror", Hollande orders French borders closed after Paris terror attack leaves at least 140 dead. http://news.nationalpost.com/news/shootout-at-paris-restaurant-leaves-several-dead-police As of 01.0092.16.213.2 (talk) 01:23, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

International response subsection

Should we include a section for international responses from world governments, first excerpt pasted below, more to follow:


Immediately following the attacks, worldwide governments issued statements in response. United States President Barack Obama spoke via live stream from the White House at 5:45 PM ET, condemning the attacks and offering American aid, calling the event an "attack on all of humanity". [1] British Prime Minister David Cameron pledged similar support for France through a statement made on Twitter.[2]
  • This was discussed above - see the Response section earlier in the talk page. SkittishSloth (talk) 00:35, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. The international community will obviously express sympathy, offer aid, etc., etc. I argue that this is not notable. It was suggested above that perhaps a running list be kept on this talk page, for addition at some point in the future. Ignatzmice•talk 00:36, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Not all express sympathy. Swedish vice Prime Minister Åsa Romson has tweeted that her worry is that it will be more difficult for her to attend a conference in Paris next month. Jeppiz (talk) 00:38, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Perhaps keep a running list here, add details to article if relevent? Responses may vary.
  • Bilingual response from Justin Trudeau, Canadian Prime Minister: "I am shocked and saddened that so many people have been killed and injured in violent attacks in #Paris. Canada stands with France. Je suis bouleversé et attristé par le lourd bilan des victimes des violentes attaques de #Paris. Le Canada est solidaire de la France."

https://twitter.com/JustinTrudeau?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thomas W. Wilson (talk • contribs) 00:41, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support This is one of the worst terrorist attacks in the West since 9/11, and no section for responses? Really?--Stefvh96 (talk) 01:05, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Are you agree this quote?--Shwangtianyuan (talk) 00:39, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Substantial reactions, as in providing monetary assistance, logistical support, etc. is worth including. Messages of condolences and solidarity are routine for tragedies such as this and not encyclopedic. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 00:43, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This is being discussed above. Gareth E Kegg (talk) 00:46, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - standard and should likely be its own article —МандичкаYO 😜 01:04, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - standard and should likely be its own article.--Oneiros (talk) 01:20, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - standard BUT should not be its own article yet. epic genius (talk) 01:23, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Absolutely not. These are just talking heads and generic statements of sympathy/solidarity/support. They add nothing to the reader's understanding; they're just filler, used by rolling news channels so that newsreaders don't keep repeating themselves. If anyone manages to sum it up in a nice, concise quote, that will become clear in the coming days; there's no emergency here. Obama's quote might gain that sort of traction, but most of the rest are the same obligatory condolences that politicians trot out every time there's an incident like this. No doubt they're sincere, but they add nothing. Please ask yourself, how is a readers' understanding developed by "talking head number one of country number two offered his condolences, while talking head number three of country number four offered her deepest sympathies". HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 01:28, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "President Obama delivers statement". The White House - President Barack Obama. White House. Retrieved November 13, 2011.
  2. ^ "Paris attacks: David Cameron offers condolences". BBC. BBC. November 13, 2015. Retrieved November 13, 2015.
  3. ^ "UN condemns 'despicable' terrorist attacks in Paris". UN News Centre. United Nations. November 13, 2015. Retrieved November 13, 2015.
  • Support - these are on all of the terrorism articles. Maybe keep the section small and have a link to the whole split article. 97.73.126.72 (talk) 01:55, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - but only for reactions that contain substantial content, rather than condolences and moral support. Similar to when the head of NATO said an attack on one was an attack on all of the alliance after 9/11.--Mongreilf (talk) 02:08, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Football

It should be mentioned that you could hear the detonations in the stadium (and in the live broadcast) while the match took place. And in German media I heared that the Islamists tried to enter the stadium. Also, there was a bomb threat for the German hotel, but no bomb was found. Also, the German national team (I don't know about the French one) had to wait for more than three hours until they finally could leave the stadium.

From Daily Mail article,

Obviously the football match was the reason for these attacks in the first place, so it definitely should have a more prominent position in the article.--31.17.155.184 (talk) 00:54, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Obviously? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 01:21, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Obviously the OP is trolling. epic genius (talk) 01:31, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Also, see above Terror threat to German futbol squad

Migrant camps on fire?

According to "unconfirmed reports", the Calais jungle migrant camps have been set on fire. Perhaps it's worth a mention? http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/619361/Calais-Jungle-migrant-camp-fire-Paris-terror-attacks Xwejnusgozo (talk) 01:13, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It's worth it. Damn this is depressing. --Monochrome_Monitor 01:16, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Should wait on this. The source says that it's uncertain whether or not it took place this week or last week. Not our place to make connections. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 01:18, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Agree, timing is important. --Monochrome_Monitor 01:19, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

BBC News Channel says this is a hoax—the reports were based on old photos. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 01:20, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Friend there said it was tents that caught fire due to high winds from fires used to keep warm. Around 40 tents/shelters lost, now under control. People then used old pics of fires, and passed on rumours of a revenge arson attack. --Mongreilf (talk) 01:47, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Edit conflicts

Would people kindly edit individual sections whenever possible rather than the whole article? It's exceedingly hard to make a single edit without a conflict, even when I'm editing a section unrelated to other edits. LjL (talk) 01:16, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You're right. I HATE when that happens. --Monochrome_Monitor 01:17, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Editing individual sections (not the whole article) should always be the way to go, not only on this article Hervegirod (talk) 01:24, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Change of border status from closed to severely restricted

Announced by Francois Hollande, please include this..--Stefvh96 (talk) 01:22, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Stefvh96: do you have a link to a source handy? LjL (talk) 01:24, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"President François Hollande called an unprecedented terrorist attack on France. He announced sharply increased border controls ..." "he convened an emergency cabinet meeting and announced that France was placing severe restrictions on its border crossings." "Despite the increased border security, air travel in and out of Paris appeared to be unaffected". [2]. Just Chilling (talk) 01:30, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That doesn't seem to confirm that he announced downgrading the border controls from "closed" to "severely restricted". If the status changed that way, it needs to be stated. LjL (talk) 01:36, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The source doesn't seem to indicate a downgrade explicitly, though. It just says "severely restricted". I'd opt to wait until more reports come out backing this up. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 01:37, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It does, though, back up what the television media are reporting that though the borders may have been closed they are not now closed and this in the lead " François Hollande declared a state of emergency and closed the borders for all of France". gives the wrong impression. Just Chilling (talk) 01:45, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Islamic terrorism

Can you believe that users Rklawton and Firebrace think this isn't actually an Islamic terrorist attack? Mindless wiki-bureaucracy.--Loomspicker (talk) 01:28, 14 November 2015 (UTC) Jinx. --Monochrome_Monitor 01:29, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Is this a personal attack? Rklawton (talk) 01:30, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No, it is not a personal attack. Not calling an obvious terrorist attack as such when it has has been labelled as such by heads of state and mainstream media is reminiscent of refusing to call the winner of a US presidential election "the president-elect" until the electoral college has voted. Wikipedia sometimes suffers from a mindless adherence to some idealized standard of proof before stating things which are reliably sourced. Edison (talk) 01:38, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't seen any sources that say any heads of state or the media have labeled this an Islamic attack. That's what I'm waiting for - a reliable source. So far I've seen one report from one unidentified witness that one gunman shouted allahu akbar. That's not particularly impressive. Wikipedia, on the other hand, IS impressive - and it's our diligence that makes it so. Rklawton (talk) 01:43, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
We cause enough misreports in the media by stating unsourced things that turn out to be incorrect and which the media repeat. Let's stick to reliable sources, not guesses. If it's so obvious that it's Islamic terrorism, anyway, people will know without reading it. LjL (talk) 01:31, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Trolling, or just speculation? epic genius (talk) 01:32, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Uh, that's not how it works. --Monochrome_Monitor 01:32, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Russian government, Egyptian government, President Assad, ISIS, ETA or Catalan separatists?92.16.213.2 (talk) 01:35, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Category islamic terrorism

I added it then deleted it in favor of Category:November 2015 Paris attacks which is in Cat:Islamic terrorism in France. Same thing. But let's substantiate it with links, not just with common sense. [3] Ding. There it is. Sorry to be blunt but there are people dying it's horrible and lets not equivocate. --Monochrome_Monitor 01:29, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This isn't rocket science. We don't get to guess or crystal ball. We just write up what we find in reliable sources. When reliable sources say that this is an Islamic attack or an ISIS attack, then we get to add it. Until then, we don't. That's how Wikipedia works. If you'd like to write a blog filled with your personal opinions and assumptions (more likely correct), then please do so, but don't do it here - not in the article and not through Categories. Rklawton (talk) 01:34, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You're right, it's not rocket science. The attackers shouted allahu akbar. Real obscure.--Monochrome_Monitor 01:36, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I know I'm being bitchy but it's hard not to be in this situation. --Monochrome_Monitor 01:37, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Must be the Scientologists then, we'd better add the article to Category:Scientologist terrorism in France.--Loomspicker (talk) 01:39, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That video is not of today/yesterday's attacks, as evidenced by the date. Also evident at a glance from the fact that today's attacks all happened after sundown, not the middle of the day. Robrecht (talk) 01:41, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oops. I think I meant this. [4] --Monochrome_Monitor 01:44, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Nobody has yet claimed responsibility, and the attackers have not been identified. We simply don't know what their motives were, so even calling it terrorism is arguably original research (because it implies political motivation, which we don't know yet, but common parlance these days is to label every large attack "terrorism"). If they're identified tomorrow and it turns out they were ISIS, we can add that then—the article is not set in stone; if they're identified as being an independent band of nutters, we can add that; if they turn out to be something completely different, we'll look pretty silly (and Islamophobic) if we call it Islamic extremism. It's always possible (unlikely, but at this point we simply don't know anything) that it's somebody trying to make it look like Islamist terrorism. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 01:46, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Terrorism doesn't imply political motivation, our article about it says "Terrorism is any act designed to cause terror". It's pretty much built into the word. This is patently terrorism. LjL (talk) 01:50, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Does anyone else know of non-Islamic people that go round killing people shouting Allahu akbar? We can then search for reliable sources that describe these unicorns people.--Loomspicker (talk) 01:51, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The "logic" is much simpler: to call it an Islamist attack would be racist and media calling it an Islamist attack would be racist media, which are not considered reliable resources. Only the establishment media has the right to choose that label –- if and when they do, Wikipedia will, too. 91.4.70.229 (talk) 01:53, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
What if the one witness was wrong? What if the reporter or the witness were racists and just made it up? What if the witness was just reporting a rumor he or she heard and lied about hearing it him or herself? What if this is a bunch of neo-Nazis trying to start a race war by running a false flag operation? What if we just wait for something more reliable than what we currently have? Rklawton (talk) 01:56, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Either a false flag operation by neo-Nazis who want to start a race war or by liberal terrorists who want to give religion a bad name. 91.4.70.229 (talk) 02:04, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, especially since Julien Pierce, a reporter who was actually present when the Bataclan attack started, claims the attackers didn't say a word.[5]. Until we have actual confirmation witness reports, even those of journalists in reliable sources, are all just hearsay. Robrecht (talk) 02:01, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Take a deep breath Loomspicker, keep calm, and stick to the guidelines. They are sound, and don't get thrown out because you are feeling hyped up.--Mongreilf (talk) 01:58, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
How could you not be "hyped up"? More than a hundred fifty people were murdered. Saying it could be a "false-flag" operation just reveals your own biases.--Monochrome_Monitor 02:03, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I am hyped up. I said guidelines don't change when people are hyped up. And saying we don't know what it is, to the level required by Wikipedia, is not bias. It is a fact. A fact that will change soon, so be patient.--Mongreilf (talk) 02:12, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This is off-topic and personal. Stick to WP:RS and don't waste talk page space, it's tight enough here. LjL (talk) 02:05, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Please read French sources

Liberation Le Parisien Le Monde BFMTV Europe 1

Would most people in France call these acts terrorism?

Yes. Can we close this? This is most likely a troll. epic genius (talk) 02:14, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Terrorism? Yes. Islamic? Not without clearer evidence. LjL (talk) 02:19, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Foot note

It could be any one. Russian government, Egyptian government, President Assad, ISIS, ETA or Catalan separatists?92.16.213.2 (talk) 02:18, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

|}

Info

  1. http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/13/us-france-shooting-un-idUSKCN0T22S720151113#BxZAfrD8tLVeuvPA.99
  2. http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=52552#.VkaI1L_fPIV
  3. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/burundi/11993785/British-UN-envoy-warns-of-possible-genocide-in-Burundi.html
  4. http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/13/us-france-shooting-un-idUSKCN0T22S720151113#ls0Ov8tSXjRJS5a2.97
  5. http://news.nationalpost.com/news/shootout-at-paris-restaurant-leaves-several-dead-police
  6. http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/13/us-france-shooting-un-idUSKCN0T22S720151113#ls0Ov8tSXjRJS5a2.97
  7. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34814203
  8. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11995227/Paris-shooting-Many-feared-dead-live.html
  9. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3317776/Machine-gun-fire-heard-central-Paris-police-flood-scene-not-far-Charlie-Hebdo-shootings.html#ixzz3rQ9iYG1w
  10. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34814203
  11. http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/nov/13/shootings-reported-in-eastern-paris-live

92.16.213.2 (talk) 01:33, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Canadian Prime Minister has a statement on the attack,please add it

http://pm.gc.ca/eng/news/2015/11/13/statement-prime-minister-canada-terrorist-attacks-paris

Who doesn't have a statement? We actually have a comment in the article asking not to add these statements. LjL (talk) 02:04, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Reactions

With respect, lets keep the reactions sections from getting bloated. A lot of celebrities have been tweeting and otherwise posting to social media about these events. Mark Dacascos and Amy Schumer, just to name two, have been posting their reactions on Twitter, as has Justin Bieber, who was performing at the time and had recently been in Paris. I'm sure many other famous people are voicing their reactions as well. While their words are well intended, I believe the reactions section should be limited to world leaders, and attention should be paid to how relevant the reaction is to the article. Just offering some forward thinking here. Thanks. Juneau Mike (talk) 01:56, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • What might be simplest would be to just summarize it as "The attacks were met with international comndemnation, with leaders from numerous countries expressing their shock and solidarity with the Frence people." and source that to either or both of the BBC and Guardian live feeds. No need for names or quotes. -- Impsswoon (talk) 02:24, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"Siege" vs. "massacre"

Given the scale and indiscriminate nature of the shooting, the word "massacre" succintly describes the events at the Bataclan theatre, and we should use it instead of "siege". -- Impsswoon (talk) 01:58, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

We should also try and get the words "carnage" and "bloodbath" in. Srsly though, mass killing would be my preferred term, though the BBC have used massacre.--Mongreilf (talk) 02:02, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The use of the word "massacre" is a topic that's visited very often on this site. I haven't been paying attention to it lately, but I believe the popular option (or the one that gets the bickering to stop) is to wait until the press settles on a term and then use that. --Kizor 02:04, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"Carnage" and "bloodbath" are emotive tabloid terms. "Massacre" is descriptive. We should at the very least use "mass shooting". -- Impsswoon (talk) 02:06, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"Siege" is neutral and shorter. The gunmen shot people and held them hostages. epic genius (talk) 02:07, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I believe they murdered their hostages. --Monochrome_Monitor 02:09, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
They did. I've used the term "siege and mass shooting" to describe it. The siege is now a minor detail in what became a Mumbai-type attack. -- Impsswoon (talk) 02:14, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • There might be one adjective that comes to be the commons name in the coming days, so we shouldn't worry to much about what we call it for the time being. I'd prefer to avoid "massacre" per WP:WTA, but then it's hard not to be emotive about a subject like this. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 02:20, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Category:November 2015 Paris attacks

The category Category:November 2015 Paris attacks should not be added here yet. There is only one article in the category, which makes it useless right now. When other articles are created, the category can be added. epic genius (talk) 02:08, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I would agree, but you're speedy deleting the category too. Why? Everyone knows there will be a category "Victims of the November 2015 Paris attacks" and maybe even attackers, and probably separate pages for some of the separate attacks. --Monochrome_Monitor 02:11, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It will be recreated when there are more articles to add. It's not like the category is salted or anything. epic genius (talk) 02:15, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Hah, okay. But just for that nuclear weapons joke. --Monochrome_Monitor 02:17, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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