Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Composers

Invitation to a virtual editathon on Women in Music

Women in Music
	10 to 31 January 2016 Please join us in the worldwide virtual edit-a-thon hosted by Women in Red.

--Ipigott (talk) 10:34, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

Tudor Music Editathon, 5 February 2016

In about four weeks' time, Oxford University will be hosting a Wikipedia editathon on the theme of Tudor Music. The venue for the event, on the afternoon of Friday 5 February, is in Oxford's IT Services and the event is supported by the Faculty of Music and the Bodleian Libraries. Dr. Katherine Butler, an academic in the Faculty of Music, has kindly suggested a list of articles for creation or for improvement (see the above link). Many of these are composer biographies, but partbooks are another theme: Dr. Butler is impressed with the Drexel 4180–4185 article and we hope to create articles about other well-documented partbooks. I will be leading the training in my capacity as Wikimedian In Residence at the Bodleian. Feel free to improve the event page or to participate in any other way. MartinPoulter (talk) 10:45, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Request for comment

Members may wish to comment at Wikipedia talk:Notability (music)#Bias against notability of artists from early recordings. Best.4meter4 (talk) 16:00, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Infobox

I propose a PDbox or however we may call it: a minimal infobox of those limited informations which were so far held as Persondata (name(s), honourific(s), date and place of both birth and death, and why the person is notable which may be summarized in a works list). Normally, printed encyclopedias have this information in the lead sentence, but our MoS does not support mentioning places of birth and death, and age at death. Such a thing was installed for Handel in 2014 and has worked well. I don't think the discussion on individual articles is productive, therefore propose to discuss here more generally: Do project members support a PDbox for classical composers.

More precise question: Do project members agree to accept such a thing, instead of reverting when it has been added in good faith. Agree that there is nothing bold about the addition? What made me come here were two reverts in the last days, and one more happened while we discuss, Georges Bizet. I do not propose to have it on all composer articles.

I tried one for Pierre Boulez (whose work I admire and wrote about) as follows:

Pierre Boulez CBE
Pierre Boulez, composer, conductor, founder and director of IRCAM, in 1968
Born	(1925-03-26)26 March 1925 Montbrison, Loire, France
Died	5 January 2016(2016-01-05) (aged 90) Baden-Baden, Germany
Works	List of compositions

Pierre Boulez CBE (French: [pjɛʁ bu.lɛːz]; 26 March 1925 – 5 January 2016) was a French composer, conductor, writer and pianist. He was also the founder and director of the Paris-based Institut de Recherche et Coordination Acoustique/Musique (IRCAM).

In his early career, Boulez played a key role in the development of integral serialism, controlled chance and electronic music. This, coupled with his highly polemical views on the evolution of music, gained him the reputation as an enfant terrible.

As a conductor, Boulez was known mainly for his performances of Béla Bartók, Alban Berg, Anton Bruckner, Claude Debussy, Gustav Mahler, Maurice Ravel, Arnold Schoenberg, Igor Stravinsky, Edgard Varèse, Richard Wagner and Anton Webern, as well as conducting the work of his contemporaries such as Elliott Carter and György Ligeti. He received a total of 26 Grammy Awards during his career.

History

The proposal was made - under a different header - as an attempt to achieve a compromise. PDbox was my first idea to name the thing, Brianboulton called it identibox when he installed it to Percy Grainger. Other names could be min-infobox, compromise-box, YOU name it.

Several previous discussions were archived, most recently

• Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Composers/Archive 38#Infoboxes
• Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Composers/Archive 38#A Statistical Note on Infoboxes

Discussion

• Support as proposer. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:24, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

• I've changed the title to reflect what we are talking about here: an INFOBOX. It's not persondata, so lets be open and honest about what is being proposed here. For the record I oppose this. - SchroCat (talk) 10:49, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

I didn't say it is Persondata, only that the data lost there - and we had long arguments about that - could be made visible, which is better anyway than hidden. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:55, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

• Comment: I don't agree offhand that what is clearly a minimal infobox is necessarily a "PDbox" unless we are going to create a brand-new template called "PDbox" with only those parameters. However I Support an as-proposed, at-least minimal infobox (name(s), honourific(s), date and place of both birth and death, and why the person is notable which may be summarized in a works list) on most any composer's article if someone desires to include one and there is no overwhelming objection to it. (In other words, if in any particular case consensus is divided rather equally, I would say include it for the reader's sake.) Such infoboxes have valuable informational purposes for the reader. Softlavender (talk) 10:52, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
  • "name(s), honourific(s), date and place of both birth and death, and why the person is notable": much like a lead does then... - SchroCat (talk) 11:01, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

This lead has no places, no age at death, no indication which date is the date of birth, no way of finding this person as a birthday child of 26 March because year/month/day are not templated, no link to his works. Other Wikipedias have different means to fix that, the Germans have the places in the first sentence and a link to the day-month expressions and another to the years. The Italians have a template that translates to a lead sentence, see it:Maria Carbone. I think our easiest way. is still the one proposed, because it is compatible with other articles readers see, for example Patrice Chéreau. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:55, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

ps: I often mention in singer articles: "... appears in the Jahrhundertring, staged by Patrice Chéreau and conducted by Pierre Boulez". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:59, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Well add the bloody places or age of death to the lead then! There is way too much time and effort wasted on forcing the matter here: I tell you what, as you seem to be interested in what other Wiki's do: how about using the entry from your native German wiki. That would be a wonderful way to go. As to the rest "no way of finding this person as a birthday child of 26 March": I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, let alone any practical reason for doing what I think you may be talking about. The obsession with these things is as disruptive as it always is, and despite your claim to that you wish the "wars" could begin to end, you seem to be the one being disruptive by forcing the issue in so many places. - SchroCat (talk) 12:04, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Please note that I have no force, certainly not to make you understand the difference between a date in prose, and one that has year, month and date as different entities, and that I try to have this discussion in one place, instead of individual articles. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:07, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

We have the date in the leadand the body. Computer "readers" have the date in Wikidata. There is no need to have it yet again in the IB. And as others have said, this is a point to be discussed in individual articles. That's what the MoS prescribes, and what Arbcom agreed with. If you don't want to have the discussion, then stop being so needlessly pushing your disruptive agenda. - SchroCat (talk) 13:13, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

" you proved my point that I have no force to make you understand the difference of a templated DOB and a date in prose": you have "proved" nothing Gerda, because I have no idea what you are talking about. Try explaining, rather than forcing! - SchroCat (talk) 13:26, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

I tried just above, and explaining that the German Wikipedia at least would link de:26. März 1925, while the Italians have the day and month separated from the year in their template. I liked to see how this user understood. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:49, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

No, you've not explained anything. I understand how to put something in a template, obviously, but not WHY. People can read the basic text: they do not need it templated, so WHY would we need to template it? What need is served that isn't covered by a combination of open text here, or the templated stuff on Wikidata. - SchroCat (talk) 13:58, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

I have explained, but I couldn't reach you. Perhaps my language problem. You say "we" and "need" a lot, but how about the needs of others, like here? Nothing we do here is "needed", it's all voluntary. Why not supply information even if you (personally) don't need it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:20, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Still no explanation of why we should template it? To correct what you've put above: the information normally is supplied, so it's disingenuous to try and say that others are withholding it. It's the format of that supply which is under discussion, so try again: why should we put the date in your templates, rather than in plain text? – SchroCat (talk) 14:28, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

I don't understand "withholding". Why not give prose to you, and a template additionally to those who may want to translate, sort, compare, find people born that day ...? It's not only a format but wider possibilities. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:36, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

So in order to facilitate the tiny, tiny minority of readers who want to search for the mind-numbing trivia of all those born on a particular day, we need to add an IB? Let me try and get my head round why on earth we should bother doing that just so you can force an IB into articles. Aside from the utter pointlessness of that, I think it is something that Wikidata can deal with much more efficiently than here. - SchroCat (talk) 14:42, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose categorically. This is an infobox whatever it is called. As Gerda will recall perhaps from Arbcoms past (in which certain editors whom I will not name were forbidden to propose, and some of them even to discuss, infoboxes), the case for or against an infobox is to be discussed in each individual article. I don't see any reason why this project should be drawn into igniting a dispute which will spread across WP - for of course if the rationale is to replace Persondata then this disingenuous proposal could be spread to every biographical article in Wikipedia. I note that other projects which this proposal would affect directly (e.g. Opera) have not been informed of this latest attempt at Infobox infiltration. The right place to dicuss this idea is wherever Persondata were discussed, not in this lowly project. Apart from that I agree with SchroCat's points, (but being of a peaceable disposition, would delete the expletives). I beg that Gerda will save us time, rancour and blood-pressure by dropping this tedious quest, here and elsewhere.--Smerus (talk) 12:27, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

I am tired of the individual articles. They take away too much of our time, yours included. Chopin, Mozart, Sibelius: how much editing wasted that could go to cleaning up Busoni! We have a few hundred more composers ... --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:59, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Gerda, as we are in agreement, why not stop pestering? It is you who raises the issue time and again, not me. No project can either forbid or impose an infobox, under whatever soubriquet it masquerades. Therefore your proposal is utterly pointless.--Smerus (talk) 14:37, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

You are right: no project can forbid. However, infoboxes are reverted with the argument that this project votes against them, which ignores that a composer is also a human being, possibly a performer, writer, director, politician, you name it, - for whom other projects are responsible which have a different view. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:11, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

I've informed projects opera, classical music and infobox, but not France ;) - Uncertain about biography (From the archived discussion: "Of 6,741 persons scanned, only 224(3.3%) lacked infoboxes.") --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:20, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose - per the discussions on the article talk page. This infobox has to be one of the most ridiculous looking boxes I have seen in a while. Cassianto^Talk 12:30, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Care to explain what made you laugh? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:59, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Who's laughing? The ridiculousness of your eyesore above was enough to make me cry, let alone laugh. Cassianto^Talk 19:35, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose but: Rather than the proposed solution, I think Gerda's alternate suggestion of localizing the Italian template and amending the MOS to allow for its use makes sense. I've always found it odd that en.wiki does not allow place of birth and death in the parentheses, given that many other encyclopedias do. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:12, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

I liked the idea when I first saw it, but when thinking of details of implementation I saw that it would make for very rigid first sentences. I would prefer to leave that to a box, and be free in the wording of the prose. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:23, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose, don't think the "boxes" are ready for an over-all approach, and would keep to the article-by-article approach. I commend Gerda for trying, but I'm not in on it. Reason: for instance the Chopin article: it was decided not to have one, not even a minimal one: the reasons why are still valid, and shouldn't be overridden by a general agreement to force them in, whether it is a good idea for that particular article or not. Maybe good to remind that the "boxes" are only as time-consuming as one wants them to be. An option is to "let go" and let others decide whether, for a particular article, there will be a box or not, and what information or image in which format it should hold if there is to be one: that's what I've been doing most of the time lately (I think Bach, a few months ago, was the last one where I got somewhat involved in the discussion, haven't even read a discussion since as far as I can remember). --Francis Schonken (talk) 14:38, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
• Support and Comment I always find it frustrating to see people arguing about infoboxes from purely aesthetic reasons. The infobox's structural rationale is Wikidata. There's no question that it needs to be in articles. If people hate it so much, then hide it - but to not have an infobox I feel is in opposition to what Wikipedia is about. - kosboot (talk) 16:01, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

• Sorry, but that's a deeply, deeply flawed argument (and ignores that fact that only one person seems to have mentioned the aesthetic aspct). "infobox's structural rationale is Wikidata" is just wrong. It is possible to edit WikiData directly, and the IB is not needed to populate the required information. Even if it was required, once the information is in Wikidata, the existence of the same information in a IB is superfluous: it will already be in WikiData. You may have other reasons for having it there - be they aesthetic or otherwise - but the rationale is not all about WD. - SchroCat (talk) 16:06, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose. To rehearse the familiar reasons, infoboxes place trivia in a very conspicuous location (in this case: "CBE"), induce oversimplification of nuanced issues, discourage actual reading on the part of the public, and invite bad edits from casual editors who don't know the topic, yet fight hard to keep their edits in. Opus33 (talk) 16:48, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
• Support question about dates of deaths at the help desks are a direct result of not having this info at a glance....we are losing many readers to other websites that have this info. Do what is best for the readers...not what some editors things looks best. The decline of readership of this topic is directly tide to the lack of info people can see at a glance. Still puzzled at why this group likes to hide basic info from our readers in this fashion...I guess they believe all readers read the full article...they are dreaming!! -- Moxy (talk) 17:22, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

• How bizzare: the dates of birth and death are IN THE FIRST LINE! It's just not true to say that we "hide basic info from our readers" when it's in the first line. Could you post one or two diffs from the ref desks showing people asking about this? Could you also provide some evidence of research that shows people are leaving as a direct result of either us not using an IB. - SchroCat (talk) 17:34, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Readers do not want to do math in the FIRST LINE THEY SEE (basic common sense) ...its great you added the age of death to the lead.... but this does not solve the problem that we will loss readers to a page that has this info at a glance. You make a good point on your talk page "Sadly more true of Wikipedia than anywhere else, where collective groups can press a tiny agenda without objectivity, without common sense and without recourse to the use of intelligence" .. This quote is exactly what i would say for this group.. Very ironic I would say...LOL -- Moxy (talk) 18:20, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

You've not answered any of the questions or backed up any of the claims you've made with diffs. Please do so. Just for the record, I'm not a member of this group. Nothing ironic at all. Diffs please, or we'll draw our own conclusion from your big claims. – SchroCat (talk) 18:32, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

What do you want me to show you? That people ask for info of this nature at our help desks ...this is why they are there. You are free to make any conclusion you like.. hopefully its one that helps our readers...not impends them. try a real rebuttal as in rebut the concerns raised...but that said .. I will see if I can find some of the old request.....not a fan of holding editors hands like this. Its clear some dont understand different people get information in different ways. They need to teach this at the high-school level....to many people not aware that there are many ways of consuming information. -- Moxy (talk) 18:57, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

It's nothing to do with you holding anyone's hand. If you make big claims you have to be able to back them up. This is fairly bog standard stuff. BTW, the claims you need to answer are that "question about dates of deaths" are often asked at reference desks; "we are losing many readers to other websites that have this info"; that there is a "decline of readership of this topic"; that this supposed 'decline' is "directly tide to the lack of info people can see at a glance". Big claims with absolutely nothing to back them up, as far as I can see. I wait with baited breath... – SchroCat (talk) 19:05, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

I though this was common sense...no BIG claim here at all...people ask questions at the help desk (the norm)...and reader will leave Wikipedia if the info they seek is not there (all would do this). But since this is apparently not common knowledge I will look for the old talks on the matter...just so you can see the same concerns raised here as there. "In general" we need more editors that "get it"....over having to hold there hands for every point made....need critical thinking taught in schools. -- Moxy (talk) 19:20, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

There's no common sense in your claims: they are claims with no evidence or connection to common sense or common knowledge. Think of it of having a big {{cn}} tag on each of the "claims". Perhaps looking at it this way may help you overcome the position of having someone pick up on these. – SchroCat (talk) 19:26, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

So to be clear...you would not navigate to some other website if the info your seeking is not available on Wikipedia? You would pull out a calculator and do the math? I dont think most would do this at all (the common sense point i am trying to make)....but I will take the time see what old talks I can find...in the mean time think about the ways people consume information...do they do it in bit sizes bit...or do all people read huge pages on info to fine one point? We should facilitate the needs of all our readers. -- Moxy (talk) 20:16, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

The question is whether your claims are verifiable or not. You can either prove what you've written, or you can't. It's probably best you start looking for the diffs to back up your claims, rather than try and pick holes in me. – SchroCat (talk) 20:22, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Yes your right ...not all understand the basics of how people use Wikipedia or consume information in general. Will try to help in this regard....last thing we want is Wikipedia to go they way of Britannica. -- Moxy (talk) 20:46, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

These questions about reader behavior are empirically answerable. In an unrelated discussion of how to structure some navboxes in medical articles, WhatamIdoing pointed out that the foundation can perform tracking on click-throughs for particular links given sufficient editor interest in analyzing the data. You could, say, pick samples of articles with and without infoboxes that are generally well-matched in terms of notability and article quality, and then see if the click-through rates for key links to related topics are different if the link is presented in the infobox vs. only in the lead prose. If people are willing to put up with articles temporarily not to their liking, you could even temporarily add/remove the infoboxes and track any resulting changes in traffic or click-throughs, as a kludgey A/B test. It's not clear from the discussion I linked if the foundation can also provide other common web-analytics types of data, like the average time a reader spends on an article before navigating elsewhere, but those are other options to consider. There's some relevant analysis of reader behavior in this paper. Opabinia regalis (talk) 21:44, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

One empirical detail: Beethoven, helped by the Google Doodle, had a spike on 17 December, so the List of his compositions, linked from the infobox. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:05, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Los of data out there Dustin Lange; Christoph Böhm; Felix Naumann (2010). Extracting Structured Information from Wikipedia Articles to Populate Infoboxes. Universitätsverlag Potsdam. p. 7. ISBN 978-3-86956-081-6. and Refining the Wikipedia Infobox Ontology Fei Wu Computer Science & Engineering Department, University of Washington, Seattle, WA, USA -- Moxy (talk) 21:51, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Lots of data, but nothing that backs up your "claims". Please, if you are going to make such big claims in future, please ensure you check them out before and that what you post is truthful, because you haven't done that here. – SchroCat (talk) 21:56, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

So in 4 mins you read 3 articles? being truthfully are we? The fact you think its a big claim that people will go to others sites because info is not here is a fallacy in thinking at its best. Sure your doing the right thing fighting for less access to info for our readers? -- Moxy (talk) 22:05, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

~sigh~ I'd R ead one of the papers before, and the others you were dropping on your talk page as you found them, which is when I started reading them. Your words don't stack up, and your willingness to make such unguarded undo untruthful claims doesn't reflect well on you. Enough BS, I think: try and do your homework before you start typing next time. – SchroCat (talk) 22:13, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

• 'Support'. per Gerda. Caden ^cool 18:49, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Not here, but you know where to find me if you want me Caden ;)

::Nice bit of stalking there Caden. CassiantoTalk 19:30, 8 February 2016 (UTC) I have Gerda on my watch list. How is that considered stalking Cassianto? Caden cool 19:43, 8 February 2016 (UTC) Wow, you have Gerda on your watchlist? Is that even possible? CassiantoTalk 19:47, 8 February 2016 (UTC) yes --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:43, 8 February 2016 (UTC) I sure do. Is that a problem for you or are you just naturally always paranoid? Caden cool 19:54, 8 February 2016 (UTC) I suspect you are, once again, talking bullshit Caden. I'm not one for holding up such thrilling discussions, so I'll happily move on. See you at my next article, perhaps you'd like to move on too? CassiantoTalk 20:13, 8 February 2016 (UTC) That's a serious allegation Cass. Either you prove it or you zip it. Caden cool 20:30, 8 February 2016 (UTC) Since you ask, here, here, here, here, here, here, continue ad infinitum. Perhaps you're going to tell me these are coincidental? CassiantoTalk 21:18, 8 February 2016 (UTC) LOL Having ANI on my watchlist proves nothing Cassianto. Try again buddy. Caden cool 21:28, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

• Support infobox by whatever name per Gerda, Moxy, Softlavender and so on. Round 10,000. Plus manipulating wikidata is a whole separate thing from working on articles, often working across multiple language wikis, which may not all agree with each other (I've been trying to get them to change the definition of "cattle" to something comprehensible for a couple years and have thrown up my hands in despair) infobox contents serve that role nicely and you don't need a programming degree to do them, just copy and paste a template that's not really any more complicated than the citation templates. Nothing new in this debate, really; my only other comment is that mobile devices are now also part of the mix and growing to be a larger percentage of users by the month; infobox parameters also are useful in that interface. Montanabw^(talk)|GO THUNDER! 18:52, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Comment. Can we all just cool it? This whole discussion is much ado about nothing. This project can neither endorse nor inhibit infoboxes or any other paraphernalia - nor can any other project. Gerda's request that the project somehow endorses in advance anything that she puts up, whatever the comments on the talk pages of the article concerned say, is absurd and a grotesque attempt to usurp the opinions and rights of other editors. If I proposed that this project declared positively against infoboxes, whatever editors on an article page said, she would be the first (rightly) to denounce me. Her admission that she finds it tiresome to argue page by page is a code for saying she is tired of being voted down. Tough. If she creates an article she can put anything she likes on it as long as it conforms with WP standards. If editors don't like what she has done they can argue it on the talk page. If she wants to put something up on articles other people have created, she can argue it on the article talk page. Nothing which is agreed (or disagreed) here can have any binding effect on individual articles. Gerda, please understand that provoking other editors and bringing out the usual flash mob (for it seems to be always you that start and the others that follow) does nothing for WP, nothing for your reputation and wastes everybody's time. Do as you wish with articles you create, and please desist from trying to dictate or impose on others. It's just common courtesy.--Smerus (talk) 23:59, 8 February 2016 (UTC)