Talk:Joseph Stalin

Stalin's name

The Stalin Museum is a museum in Gori, Georgia dedicated to Stalin. On this page you can read their biography of Stalin. If you read the Georgian version of this page it will give you იოსებ ბესარიონის ძე ჯუღაშვილი as Stalin's birth name. If you put იოსებ ბესარიონის ძე ჯუღაშვილი in Google Translate it will transliterate it as "ioseb besarionis dze jughashvili". I think this is a good source to validate the original Georgian version of Stalin's name. MaisonHorta (talk) 09:41, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

Well, I don't. We have to look at what secondary sources say. And secondly transliteration isn't that important.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:52, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

The Stalin Museum website is not a primary source, it's just in a different language. MaisonHorta (talk) 10:14, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes... and this is English language Wikipedia. The source you're citing has an English language version of the same page here. Please stop edit warring your original research changes to the content. You are using your own transliteration system (his original name in not written using Latin script, but using Georgian script), therefore we follow what reliable secondary sources write, not our personal interpretations. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:19, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

@Iryna Harpy: @Jack Upland: All right, all right, I'll hold of my editing for a while. So what if I cited some English-language books? How about these?

The man who became known as Josef Stalin was born under the name Ioseb Besarionis dze Jughashvili in the Georgian town of Gori in 1879.

— Events That Changed the Course of History: The Story of the Russian Revolution 100 Years Later by Jessica Piper

He had been born Ioseb Besarionis Dze Jughashvili, but he renamed himself “Stalin,” because it is the Russian word for “steel.”

— Operation Long Jump: Stalin, Roosevelt, Churchill, and the Greatest Assassination Plot in History by Bill Yenne

Stalin, Josef V. (1878–1953) Soviet leader, born as Ioseb Besarionis dze Jughashvili (Georgian) or Iosif Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili (Russian), in Gori, Georgia, sometime around December 1878.

— Russia at War: From the Mongol Conquest to Afghanistan, Chechnya, and Beyond by Timothy C. Dowling

If I cited any of these books, could I then use "Ioseb Besarionis dze Jughashvili" in the article? MaisonHorta (talk) 09:38, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

@MaisonHorta: I'm having difficulty in understanding which part of edit warring you don't understand because you are reintroducing the same content for "Ioseb Besarionis dze Jughashvili" despite promising that you won't do so until responses have been made per WP:BRD... in a sequence of edits only two days after said commitment. Firstly, you've only managed to cite a couple of sources using this convolution of his name, none of which can be understood to be quality scholarship, nor reflect WP:COMMONNAME. Added to that, your English is not up to par for editing without some assistance (per this bizarre re-rending of 'birth name' to 'original name', and being born 'under' a name), and what has ensued is a grammatically poor, unencyclopaedic description. There is nothing wrong with editing if English is not your native language, or if you are not a proficient speaker. There is a lot wrong with changing content against consensus without any regard for grammar or process. I see no evidence that the nomenclature you've unilaterally nominated as being correct actually meets with COMMONNAME, therefore the WP:ONUS is on you to demonstrate that it is more commonly used, more commonly recognised by scholarship, and not merely verifable that a few sources use it. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:07, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

@Iryna Harpy: I am so hurt to be accused of bad faith. I thought that I had acted with sufficient consideration by waiting a couple of days since posting my new sources to await a reply from one of you. I see by your edit history that you were active on Wikipedia during this period, yet you ignored my pings so I assumed you lost interest in this matter. But at least you've finally replied! The other guy, User:Jack Upland, hasn't made a peep. That's even more hurtful, because it feels like a hit and run. He didn't stick around to give me further guidance. Anyway, on to the matter…

I notice that the name "Ioseb Besarionis dze Jughashvili" appears in other places on Wikipedia, including the first footnote of this very article, which reads:

{{quote|{{Russian: Ио́сиф Виссарио́нович Ста́лин. Stalin was born with the name Ioseb Besarionis dze Jughashvili (Georgian: იოსებ ბესარიონის ძე ჯუღაშვილი), which was transliterated into Russian as Iosif Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili (Russian: Ио́сиф Виссарио́нович Джугашви́ли). He adopted the surname "Stalin" after one of his revolutionary noms de guerre; see Origins of name, nicknames and pseudonyms.}}

This footnote, mind you, does not cite any sources.

"Ioseb Besarionis dze Jughashvili" also appears in Early life of Joseph Stalin. You're not questioning those instances, just my edits. They are there because they slipped in when you did not care to pay attention. I can see in the edit history of Joseph Stalin that "Ioseb Besarionis dze Jughashvili" was also used. It disappeared because User:Midnightblueowl decided to rewrite whole parts of the article. He didn't take kindly to my mild complaints about his work.

Stalin went by several official names (Georgian: იოსებ ბესარიონის ძე ჯუღაშვილი) is what he was called at by birth. He got a Russian version of this name, (Russian: Ио́сиф Виссарио́нович Ста́лин). Are both of them equal? I sort of felt that since Stalin was born an ethnic Georgian that his Georgian name is closest to his true name, but that is kind of a value judgment and beside the point. The question is how these can respectively be transliterated.

WP:COMMONNAME has this to say on transliteration:

Names not originally in a Latin alphabet, such as Greek, Chinese, or Russian names, must be transliterated. Established systematic transliterations, such as Hanyu Pinyin, are preferred. However, if there is a common English-language form of the name, then use it, even if it is unsystematic (as with Tchaikovsky and Chiang Kai-shek). For a list of transliteration conventions by language, see Wikipedia:Romanization.

"Iosif Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili" appears more often in books on Stalin, but it is the romanization of the Russian transliteration of his original Georgian name. It is a transliteration of a transliteration. The Georgian version of his name didn't appear often in Western texts, perhaps because of the information barriers thrown up by the Soviet Union.

This online encyclopedia has an article on how to romanize the Georgian script: Romanization_of_Georgian. There is one called ISO 9984, which is an international standard. I thought of going with that, but the text came out funny because this standard uses unconventional latin letters with breves: ioseb besarionis je ǰuḡašvili. In many fonts it doesn't come out right, particularly the j with a breve. It's such a hassle to type for anyone who doesn't use a specialist keyboard. I happen to have one of those but most people don't (God help those who work from smartphones!). And many English readers won't even understand those funny letters, because those only appear in foreign languages. So I looked at the first column, which presents the official romanization system of the Georgian government since 2002. I converted Stalin's Georgian name using that standard and got "Ioseb Besarionis dze Jughashvili". It's so much easier to understand and type. Was I really such a jerk to go with that?

Is this honestly original research? To me, it's like converting Celsius to Fahrenheit. I am using guidelines that Wikipedia and the government of Georgia established!

But you think it is original research, so in good faith I went searching for some scholarly sources in English that used this transliteration. I found some, but you decided that these are not quality scholarship and too few in number. By what standard did you make this judgment? I feel like you're just shifting the goalposts. I am sure you are going to shift the goalposts some more in your next response. MaisonHorta (talk) 10:27, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

MaisonHorta, I can see no evidence that Iryna Harpy ever accused you of bad faith editing; they merely pointed out that you are edit warring and seeking to impose changes on the article without consensus (which you are). Please stop making false accusations against other editors. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:53, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

MH seems to be actually someone who knows what he is talking about (in Georgian & Russian) and is making an honest effort to improve the article. I suggest the rest of those engaged on this thread welcome him and engage constructively with his comments. Given that there are only a few million Georgian speakers, and few of them until recently spoke English, then it seems highly likely that Stalin's original name has been unnecessarily and inaccurately intermediated via Russian in many sources.

Gravuritas (talk) 16:33, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

@MaisonHorta and Gravuritas: Please do not make bad faith assumptions about other editors, or hastily 'defend' editors from attacks that do not exist. You have both veered off topic in your commentary on this talk page (and, as an aside, note that BGN/PCGN romanization is the standard transliteration system used for Wikipedia, but not where there is an English language WP:COMMONNAME, so please pay attention to policies and guidelines being described to you). Google Ngram does not recognise "Ioseb Besarionis dze Jughashvili". Google Scholar comes up with 66 results, the majority of which are wiki mirrors, and are not cited by any reliable sources. The search string for "Iosif Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili" results in 223 instances, many of which are heavily cited by reliable sources. The fact that "Iosif Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili" has stood, unchallenged, for years makes it the consensus variant accepted for his name. If you have a compelling argument for your preferred variant, you must present it and convince other editors that it meets with policies and guidelines. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:25, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

The BGN/PCGN romanization system for Georgian produces the same result as the Georgian national system. Their tables are nearly identical.

You're telling me that we should use "Iosif Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili" because it shows up more often in search engines. But that's not even his common name. Stalin's COMMONNAME in English is "Joseph Stalin". That's an anglicized version of his name from when he ruled the Soviet Union. His previous names are more esoteric information and I think that gives us more freedom to choose.

I think that using "Ioseb Besarionis dze Jughashvili" in the childhood section of his biography is appropriate because it fits the context. He didn't speak Russian until he started schooling, and he didn't became active in Russia itself until well into his revolutionary career. I would like to call him "Ioseb Besarionis dze Jughashvili" in the childhood section, and perhaps mention "Iosif Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili" in a footnote. MaisonHorta (talk) 08:04, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

COMMONNAME also applies to other variants of a person's name therefore, as an example, Lady Gaga's article uses the name she is notable for, but her birth name is sourced. One thing I can agree on, however, is that there are not very many English language sources for Stalin's birth name, so I would suggest that this is (sort of) an issue of WP:IAR, and is subject to WP:CCC (a change of consensus which should also extend to other Wikipedia articles such as the one dealing with Stalin's youth for the sake of parity. If there were hundreds of sources using the Russian variant, it would be a different matter. Ultimately, I think that an RfC is probably called for on this article as it would be the common article on Stalin with the most editors watching it. My preference would be that, for the infobox, both the (sourced) Georgian transliteration and commonly used Russian transliteration should be presented in that order according to alphabetical order ("G" coming before "R") so that there aren't any squabbles over which is more 'important' or 'appropriate' as the order is merely alphabetical. For the body of the text, the first mention (being the "Childhood" subsection) should feature both variants qualifying the Georgian and the Russian versions. Thereafter, the Georgian variant should be used as the differentiation has been qualified. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:11, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

My proposal is to create a Birth subsection in Early Life that details Stalin's date of birth, place of birth, and his birth name in Georgian and Russian with transliterations. MaisonHorta (talk) 13:54, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

@Iryna Harpy: Something we should ask about is if the birth register at the Upensky Church in Gori recorded Stalin's name in Georgian or Russian. My guess is that it would be the latter. In fact I bet there were hardly any official documents which recorded Stalin's name in Georgian. I hear at the time the tsar was very keen on russifying the region. This would explain why almost all historians use his russified name, even with the disappearance of the Soviet-era barriers to information.

Yet there is still good reason to mention his Georgian name. Stalin's father was nicknamed "Beso". This makes sense if you look at his Georgian name, Besarion, rather than his russified name, Vissarion. Like Stalin, Besarion was born when Georgia was part of the Russian Empire. Stalin didn't start speaking Russian until he started school, which means his parents and neighbors probably knew him as "Ioseb", and "Iosif" was just what the Russian bureaucrats and priests called him. MaisonHorta (talk) 05:49, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

I don't really think that creating an additional "Birth" sub-section in "Early life" will really improve anything. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:47, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

Ok, I won't do that. What do you think about this edit? MaisonHorta (talk) 11:36, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

@Iryna Harpy: I got in touch with Donald Rayfield, a British professor of Russian and Georgian who wrote a book, "Stalin and his Hangmen". Here is an excerpt of interest:

"Russian names are presented in a slightly simplified readable version of the standard Anglo-American system; Polish spellings are used for Poles, and Georgian names are transliterated directly from Georgian. Thus we have Dzierżyński, not Dzerzhinsky, Jughashvili, not Dzhugashvili. All translations are my own, unless otherwise indicated."

I contacted Prof Rayfield and he confirmed to me that "Ioseb Besarionis dze Jughashvili" is correct, and that the birth registry of the church in Gori was written in Georgian. Local churches did everything in Georgian.

Is this good enough for you? MaisonHorta (talk) 17:45, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

I agree with Midnightblueowl about creating a further subsection on "Birth" as redundant. It also isn't my individual call as to whether the information is correct or should be used or not. What is of consequence is that so little attention has been paid to his birth name in English language scholarship, there is a very poor argument for the Russified variant meeting with COMMONNAME. As no other editors have indicated either objections or support for the use of the Georgian transliteration, my preference would be for the native language transliteration. If Midnightblueowl agrees with this variant, we have consensus for its use. Frankly, I think it would be a waste of the community's time to put this to an RfC. If there are solid arguments for restoring the "Iosif Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili" variant in future, it would need to be proposed and discussed anew per WP:CCC. Going on the arguments in this discussion, I would support the use of "Ioseb Besarionis dze Jughashvili". --Iryna Harpy (talk) 20:28, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

@Iryna Harpy: "Iosif Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili" appears so often in the literature plus some contemporary documents, it should be addressed. MaisonHorta (talk) 17:18, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I've already addressed this, but will repeat it for the sake of clarity. The infobox and first instance of usage in the body should reflect both variants. Thereafter, the "Jughashvili" variant should be used as we do not need to repeat both variants every time his birth name is mentioned. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 20:54, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

My view is that we need to go with whatever common name is used in the reliable sources. Even if that version is not the most accurate of transliterations. WP:Verifiability, not truth. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:50, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

I have given verifiable sources! Donald Rayfield used "Jughashvili" in his book! MaisonHorta (talk) 20:47, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

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Religion in the infobox

There have been several RfCs on religion in the infobox:

• 15 June 2015 RfC: RfC: Religion infobox entries for individuals that have no religion.

This RfC had a clear consensus for removing the religion parameter from the infobox for individuals (living, deceased, and fictional), groups, schools, institutions, and political parties that have no religion, but that RfC was determined by the closing administrator to not apply to nations.

• 17 June 2015 RfC: RfC: Religion in infoboxes of nations.

This RfC had a clear consensus for removing the religion parameter for countries, nations, states, regions, etc., all of which were determined to not have religions.

• 31 December 2015 RfC: RfC: Religion in infoboxes.

This RfC was a response to certain individuals insisting that the previous RfCs did not apply to their favorite pages (schools, political parties, sports teams, computer operating systems, organized crime gangs...) and had a clear consensus that in all all infoboxes in all Wikipedia articles, without exception, nonreligions should not be listed in the "Religion=" parameter of the infobox.

• 11 April 2016 RfC: RfC: Religion in biographical infoboxes.

In this RfC, there was a clear consensus to remove the "religion=" and "denomination=" parameters from all infoboxes, not just the ones that call atheism/agnosticism a religion.

There have been four RfCs on this, and all four showed the same overwhelming consensus. All of the RfCs also concluded that you are free to put a section about religion in the body of the article, subject of course to our usual rules such as WP:V, WP:RS and WP:WEIGHT. --Guy Macon (talk) 14:42, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

Bloat

I think the Early Life part of this article is too large considering there is another article focused on Stalin's early years: Early Life of Joseph Stalin. Midnightblueowl justified his expansion on the grounds that other biographies show similar bloat, but if there exists a focused article on Stalin's early life then in this case we should keep to concise details in the main article. It just makes sense. I will condense what Midnightblueowl wrote here, and suggest that he put his details into Early Life of Joseph Stalin. MaisonHorta (talk) 06:27, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Far too much information was removed by the recent edits. If you think that there is extraneous information here in this article then please, state which sentences you would like to see removed here first and the issue can be discussed. But it does need to be discussed first. Personally I do not think that there is much that can really be trimmed without losing quite important information; again, I would point to the FA-rated articles at Vladimir Lenin and Nelson Mandela as a template for the sort of length that we can get away with for each section. Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:28, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Ok, I will let some other editors weigh in on this, but I will restore Stalin's Georgian name as we had consensus on that. MaisonHorta (talk) 14:27, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

I don't see any consensus that has been established on the issue? Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:16, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

@MaisonHorta: To clarify my observations, I've merely suggested that your preferred transliteration could be argued for dependent on consensus as to the arguments standing up to scrutiny under Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. A discussion between the two of us does not equal consensus, and COMMONNAME still stands despite the low frequency of "Iosif Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili" because it is used by scholarly sources. You've also completely overlooked the fact that I clearly stated that I would only be amenable if both variants were used, yet "Iosif Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili" has been eliminated entirely from the infobox and content. Such qualifiers are non-negotiable, and it may be advisable for you to back away. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:55, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 June 2017

Change: "Lenin's New Economic Policy was replaced with a centralised command economy, industrialisation and collectivisation. These rapidly transformed the country from an agrarian society into an industrial power,[3] but disrupted food production and contributed to the famine of 1933–34. Between 1934 and 1939, Stalin organised the "Great Purge", in which millions of so-called "enemies of the working class", including senior political and military figures, were interned in Gulag-run prisons, exiled or executed, often without due process.[4][5]"

to

"Lenin's New Economic Policy was replaced with a centralised command economy, industrialisation and collectivisation. These rapidly transformed the country from an agrarian society into an industrial power,[3] but disrupted food production and contributed to the famine of 1933–34. In 1924, after the XII Congress of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, Stalin asked to leave his place as General Secretary. This was rejected unanimously by all the delegations, including his detractors. He made three more attempts in 1926, 1927 and 1952. All of them were rejected and he had to stay as General Secretary. Between 1934 and 1939, Stalin organised the "Great Purge", in which millions of so-called "enemies of the working class", including senior political and military figures, were interned in Gulag-run prisons, exiled or executed, often without due process.[4][5]

I think it is an important fact and will help to understand better. Parryx (talk) 14:17, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

References

While Stalin's offers of resignation are worth noting, I don't think they are significant enough to mention in the lead. Most historians view these offers as mere ploys.--Jack Upland (talk) 21:13, 27 June 2017 (UTC)