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m Protected "Template:Did you know nominations/Trump Street": Arbitration enforcement: ALT1 ALT3, ALT4, or ALT5 are the only hooks approved by our BLP policy, that is final and this discussion is no...
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Revision as of 00:54, 2 February 2018

DYK toolbox

Trump Street

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  • Comment: The hook plays on the tendency in US English to drop the "street" qualifiers (cf: Haight-Ashbury) to be grammatically correct.

Created by Edwardx (talk) and Philafrenzy (talk). Nominated by Ritchie333 (talk) at 14:20, 9 January 2018 (UTC).

  • Brilliant hook, which meets the length requirement. Accepting subscription-based source on good faith. ceranthor 16:58, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
  • I tried to think of something like ... that Trump's path to King runs through Russia, but I couldn't make it work and anyway there's no way to top the original hook. I bow down to its author. When it appears, beware of fools looking for excuses to pull it. EEng 18:26, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
  • I remember an Arbcom case that resulted from a “joke” about Trump. I would ask the nominator to rethink this. Mr Ernie (talk) 18:54, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Wow! That was fast! EEng 19:52, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
  • For the faint of heart, or those thinking of ArbCom, or whatever, I'll offer:
It's still funny this way, and all I did was un-pipe the links. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:58, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
  • That's about 20% as funny. Who asked you, anyway? EEng 00:26, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
  • No, it's 30%. And for those who don't know, EEng and I often joke with one another. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:40, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Yeah, I was just rushing back to add [FBDB]. EEng 00:50, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Wait! I've got it!
  • ALT2 ... that Trump runs away from Russia but is directly connected to it?
With any luck we'll get our own tweet: "Failing Wikipedia, with its fake news..." Not a big problem, but some of the stuff at the end is sourced to non-RS websites and probably needs to go. Ritchie333, have you a preference? If so I suggest you strike the other two, and if your choice isn't ALT0 ping the reviewer for a new tick. EEng 20:33, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Before we ping the reviewer back, can Philafrenzy modify the Digimap ref to spell out a specific map that gives the hook information (adjacency of other two streets, direction of travel)? There must be a map number or something that can be added to the cite. EEng 21:32, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Both are the same level of humor-adjacent (i.e. not actually humorous) as ALT1. —David Eppstein (talk) 00:56, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Possibly but I am not sure we should be truncating it just to "Trump" and "Russia". We are supposed to be politically neutral. Given in full it is a valid standard hook that allows the reader to have their own "Aha" moment. Certainly Russia Row should be in full in any case. Philafrenzy (talk) 01:04, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
  • There's nothing non-neutral about intriguing our readers using an opportunity that happens to present itself. If Uranium Street had run from Clinton Street to Russia Row, we'd be just as quick to offer ...that Uranium is Clinton's connection to Russia? Jesus, a joke's a joke. EEng 02:26, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
  • We are not in the business of making jokes EE because humour doesn't travel well and isn't always understood. At best we use a slightly amusing or curious way of putting things in a hook. We are humourless and dull, at least here, that's our strength and what readers want. If you want humour go to a comedy club. We certainly don't write hooks that wouldn't look out of place sprayed on a wall. Philafrenzy (talk) 09:54, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
  • We should not be basing this upon OR, especially as the connection is controversial. Here's some sources which explore the matter and which we might use to support the hook:
  1. Richard Jones (2018), Trump Street and Russia Row – the story that keeps on giving!, London Walking Tours
  2. Liam Pape (8 November 2017), "The Story Behind Trump Street and Russia Row", The Print
  3. Scott Campbell (8 November 2016), "London has a Trump Street leading on to Russia Row and people who work there say it's "embarrassing"", Daily Mirror
  4. What's the story behind Trump Street?, 15 November 2016
  5. "Russia Row - Ryole", A Dictionary of London, H Jenkins, 1918
Andrew D. (talk) 08:33, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
  • What OR? There are multiple RSs that show a one-way street running from Trump Street to Russia Row. There is nothing controversial about that statement of fact. Most of those you have suggested are not RS Andrew. The difficulty is in the exact wording which if turned into a political slogan "Trump leads to Russia" then becomes non-neutral. Philafrenzy (talk) 09:40, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Currently, the connection with Russia Row is supported in the article by a fourteen year old street atlas. That's not adequate because the street layout can change. The sources listed above show that the connection still exists today and that people have noticed the amusing correlation with the US president. As people may want to pull the hook, we should ensure that there are no technical weaknesses. American politics is a battleground and so you can't be too careful. Andrew D. (talk) 10:50, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Indeed (see my other comments here) but any modern street atlas will confirm the street layout, that's hardly controversial or difficult to cite. The one-way nature of the street is also confirmed in more recent street atlases and by Google Street view. I don't think the basic facts are the problem here. Philafrenzy (talk) 11:11, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
  • ALT 5 ... that Trump Street in London was probably named after the trumpet-makers who worked there in the Middle Ages? (A non-controversial Alt for the sake of completeness) Philafrenzy (talk) 10:07, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
  • That would be a tremendous hook! Better than any hook the world has ever known! And I know the best hookers, let me tell you! EEng 10:20, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Thank you kindly, I am sure I can make it even duller if I try. Philafrenzy (talk) 10:24, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Tooting your own horn. EEng 10:27, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
  • ceranthor, can you re-tick for ALT0 and ALT2? EEng 14:18, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
  • ALT0 and ALT2. ceranthor 15:51, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Lodging a vote here against running this hook. Wikipedia isn't in the business of making political jokes, no matter how funny they seem. Mr Ernie (talk) 18:06, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
  • The purpose of a hook is to "hook" the reader, and to do that we run amusing hooks all the time, political or not. If you want we can hold this for April 1. EEng 19:30, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Yes I realize this of course, but the way it would show up on the main page would make it very misleading at best, and a BLP violation at worst. My 2c: ALT0 is very ambiguous and I'd avoid it in order not to cause unnecessary trouble, but the wording of ALT2 makes it clear that it's a joke and I don't think it's a bad idea. HaEr48 (talk) 18:24, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
  • It's factually incorrect. The street is one way from Trump Street to Russia Row. Philafrenzy (talk) 18:36, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Well, it's only fair to point out that when I wrote the hook, the article said The street runs one-way, west to east, from Russia Row to King Street; you changed it to say from King Street to Russia Row. Are you sure? This Google street view [1] from the intersection of Trump St. and Lawrence Ln. shows a Do Not Enter sign barring entry to the block of Trump leading to Russia Row i.e. traffic moves toward us from Russia Row. If you turn around, you'll see that the other block of Trump, from Lawrence to King, is two-way. This is also shown by the arrows (on one block) and lack of arrows (on the other) in this Google map [2]. I believe we're entitled to use a map as a source. EEng 19:30, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Yes, good point, it looks like the arrows on my maps (2003 and 2007) may be wrong or it has since changed. Russia Row is one way to Trump Street for vehicles but two way for cycles. Trump Street is two way as far as Lawrence Lane and one way (east) at its western end. Not sure how to express all that in the article, it seems like a lot of detail, so I have changed it for the time being to "The street runs between Russia Row and King Street" pending the outcome of this discussion. Philafrenzy (talk) 20:23, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
  • I don't know if the hook will set a record for click-throughs, but Ritchie333 has a point that the discussion may be setting a record for verbiage. I'm OK with keeping it humorous if it is to run on April 1. But (and don't anyone accuse me of being a Trump apologist here!) I think Mr Ernie has a valid point. If we run it any day other than April 1, we should consider that the joke is not just something lighthearted and innocuous. It presupposes the outcome of the Mueller inquiry, and implies something that might actually be a very serious crime. I support running the hook before April, but I have low enthusiasm for Easter egg piped links. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:45, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Anyone interested in taking the nominator role for this? Otherwise, I guess we should consider this nomination dead because Ritchie333 said he's moved on? HaEr48 (talk) 20:37, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
  • May I point out that ALT 5 ... that Trump Street in London, was probably named after the trumpet-makers who worked there in the Middle Ages? is still there and non-controversial. Pity to waste the article. Philafrenzy (talk) 20:48, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
  • It doesn't have to be dead at all, just a matter of consensus on which hook. And I really see no problem with using one of the "Russia" versions, so long as we don't pipe the links to an Easter egg. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:52, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
  • I can't tell if that means A0 is ok. A0 is the one approved hook we have. EEng 21:42, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
  • What about ALT 1 which is the same but unpiped. The point is that it is connected to Russia Row, i.e. a row or argument about Russia. Philafrenzy (talk) 21:48, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
  • I proposed it, so of course I like it, but I do think that it would be a good way to go. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:17, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Seems a waste not to pun on Row, and it's less slogan-like. Philafrenzy (talk) 22:25, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Well, Pf, do you think you elaborate the article to bring A2 back, and if so would everyone be OK with it? It's piped like A0 but sufficiently playful that I don't think anyone can mistake it for an assertion of fact even without following the links. I appreciate the Row idea, but it would be a lot better if we could somehow get it rephrased to Trump is directly connected to the Russia Row -- a lot of Russians I know are always inserting the where it doesn't belong. I just can't figure out how to do it. It's too bad we don't have a Donald Street or something, so we could have the Donald is connected to the Russia row. EEng 22:36, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
  • For the reasons I've already explained, I cannot support a piped version such as ALT 2, unless we wait until April 1. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:46, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Then we're all set, because I moved this to the 4/1 nom area long ago. So if you swing A2 in the article I think that would be smashing, otherwise we can settle for A0. Did we agree we could use Gmaps to source the direction of flow? If so, I'll write it up in the article if you like. EEng 23:55, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
  • You already moved it? Why didn't you say so! But anyway, ALT 2 is fine with me now. See you in April! --Tryptofish (talk) 01:35, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Alt 1 3 and 4 are ok, but Alt0 and Alt2 are not. It is ok to be interesting and draw people in, but not to be misleading. To somebody who doesn't go to the linked articles after reading the hook, Alt0 and ALt2 are both misleading and potentially libelous. — Insertcleverphrasehere (or here) 20:13, 31 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Alt1 only. Per discussion at WT:DYK, ALT0 and ALT2 risk BLP violations. But it should be fine based on newness, length, neutrality, and citation of this fact within the article (accepting source in good faith). ceranthor 20:15, 31 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Alt1 is still not in line with neutrality. Please do not use this hook in any form, until after the results of the investigation are available. Mr Ernie (talk) 21:18, 31 January 2018 (UTC)
  • What? The hook is neutral, it's a fact. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:24, 31 January 2018 (UTC)
  • @Mr Ernie: (edit conflict) Yes it is. See this citation: Noack, Rick (2017-01-19). "Most Europeans predict a rocky future for the U.S. and Europe, a new study says". Washington Post. ISSN 0190-8286. Retrieved 2018-01-31. After Donald Trump was elected president in November, British academics, politicians and entrepreneurs pointed out what they considered a rather fitting coincidence: The capital's Trump Street, a small street in London's financial district, feeds directly into a one-way road named Russia Row., as a AE admin who is extremely familiar with this area, I can state with high certainty that such a hook is merely factual yet still very interesting. I also accept ALT1 (only). The rest of you are reminded that WP:AC/DS apply to all pages related to AP2, which includes the template space. You have all already been alerted to this within the past year. Please take our Arbitration rulings a bit more serious please. Crack some jokes on a hot beverage if you'd prefer, but let's try and keep the humor away from already severely controversial topics. Thank you. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 22:27, 31 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Thanks for the responses. Ok, taken literally this hook is neutral. But I do not believe that the intended joke is, and at the very least, this hook will be needlessly disruptive. Mr Ernie (talk) 22:33, 31 January 2018 (UTC)
  • We absolutely take the Arbitration Committee rulings seriously. Do you have a link to any discussion about this topic? You are just linking to generic boilerplate at the moment, here and in the other discussion, which doesn't inform this decision at all. — LlywelynII 04:35, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Another alternative: "DYK investigators finally mapped out Trump/Russia intersection?" --DHeyward (talk) 01:53, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
  • For what it's worth, I agree with EEng that it's criminal to neuter such a brilliant hook, with Mr Eppstein that we shouldn't be our own thought police, and with Coffee that we have a special responsibility not to mislead here, given the polarized political situation. This isn't a BLP issue at all, though; it's an article about a street.

    What's wrong with Tryptofish's compromise that we run this on and only on April 1, when the reader will be doubly responsible for any conclusion jumping they make if they don't Read The Whole Thing? Any Twitter outrage on Mr Trump's end would just provoke mockery (It's about two streets, not him) and free publicity; and there are months and months to let the Wikipedia Foundation people know this is here and think about if there are any actual implications as far as petty grant disapprovals and the like. We shouldn't be the ones saying that something so obviously factually correct (and objectively and provably amusing to many) is out of line, so long as we're making it clear that our tongues are in our cheek and that we're not reporting something In the News about the special investigation. — LlywelynII 04:31, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
  • That's a great summary, and a great approach. LlywelynII, does your proposal apply to only A1? What do you think of A0 and A2. I ask only because A0 and A2 were simply struck by a single editor on his own today. I'm willing to settle for A1 if that's the best we can do. EEng 05:35, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Sorry if I was unclear. That approach applies only to ALT0 and ALT2; ALT1 is much less funny but (a) perfectly clear and (b) in British English. It should be fine any time of year. ALT5 isn't that bad either. I just feel that ALT0 and ALT2 should also be fine as long as we explicitly run one on April Fool's. For what it's worth, I think the right wing can take a joke so long as we're poking fun at streets and not implying the investigation itself has merit, and I think they mostly already wrote off Wikipedia as left-leaning anyway based on the treatment of climate science. I don't really think there are any feathers to rustle. We can let the Foundation guys know that it's coming up, though, so an admin can step in if it's actually going to cause them any headaches. — LlywelynII 07:51, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
Llywelyn, I think you mean feathers to ruffle? (although easily confused, I grant you). Martinevans123 (talk) 15:57, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
Oh, goody, I just wanted to know if I was the only one. I've unstruck A0 and A2 because they were stuck by a single editor according to his own opinion. I'm in complete accord with you: A1 would be fine any time, but is much less hooky; A0 and A2 would be appropriate for April 1 only. Thing is, we already had this discussion higher up, and this nom was accordingly moved to the April 1 holding area. Since the list of interested editors has expanded, I suggest we wait at this point for more comment on choice of hooks.
Followon thought: I think between ALT2 and ALT0, ALT2 is preferable because its odd wording assists the reader in realizing it's not serious. EEng 16:07, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
Sadly we can't account for all parties, can we. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:52, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
  • I have re-struck ALT0 and ALT2, as it is utterly false to say that there was not a consensus, here or at WT:DYK, for bringing them back. About the comment to me, above, about April 1: the discussion at WT:DTK has clearly moved on past using April 1 as a work-around, so it's true that the idea of running it then (which actually wasn't my idea, but just something I was previously willing to go with as a compromise) is not a good solution. There is a clear directive from both Ceranthor and Coffee, that ALT1 is the only hook that is approved. The decidedly pointy efforts to deny that are unhelpful, and the Discretionary Sanctions alert really does apply. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:28, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
Baloney. A strike by one editor [3] based on his personal feeling that I have no desire to provoke needless controversy, in the middle of a completely confused discussion going in all directions at once [4] doesn't bind the rest of us. And, needless to say, Coffee's close of a discussion he himself initiated, invoking Ceranthor's arbitrary strike as a fait accompli has no value. I don't know where you get the idea that Ceranthor and Coffee are in the business of giving "directives" to other editors. As I said a moment ago I wouldn't be too disappointed if we have to settle for A!, but I don't see anything like a consensus for that, just a spectrum of opinion and two attempts to impose supervotes. EEng 20:23, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
I agree with EEng. I don't see a consensus here, and I find the arguments against the original proposal hyperbolic and lacking in sophistication. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 20:41, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
So does all this white noise mean Alt 1 is the favored Alt? I would support factually correct and the irony of the street names speak volumes without adding anything else. That way, everyone is in the clear. Atsme📞📧 22:01, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Support ALT1. It captures the essence of what is amusing about this connection, without creating an incorrect impression of the subject matter. bd2412 T 22:35, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
  • It's probably already apparent, but I want to make clear that I too support ALT1, and I now believe that it is the only really viable option. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:38, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Despite my earlier comments I don't have a strong opinion about which hook to use. (I do feel very strongly that we should try not to censor ourselves, but that doesn't imply that we are required to take the least-censored option when there are other non-censorious reasons for other options.) However I do think that if we use ALT1, it should not be an April fool's day hook. It's too unfunny. —David Eppstein (talk) 22:41, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
    • I agree with you that ALT1 should just go on the regular schedule, not April 1. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:44, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
  • ALT0 wording compromise: ALT 1 may not be the only viable option.
First, I'd like to say that regardless of the controversy on DYK, for ALT0 to work, we are going to need a section in the Trump Street article that cites some of the news articles that first featured this joke, and discusses the tourism implications ect (there are some sources that I saw somewhere.
Second, I think we can get ALT0 to work, but ONLY if we make it clear (without clicking the links), that it is a street that it is referring to. To this aim, I propose the following:
  • ALT6: ... that Trump is directly connected to Russia (pictured)?
    Map showing direct connection
In addition, it should appear as the top hook for April Fools.
Does that work for ya'll? ​​​​​​​​​​​​​​ — Insertcleverphrasehere (or here) 22:46, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
I appreciate the effort, but I don't like it, because the map is so small that it doesn't really clarify anything unless the reader enlarges it a lot. Sorry. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:52, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
@Tryptofish, Thats kind of the point, and should be allowable per April Fools DYK rules (misleading rather than a lie, as the image is clearly right there, even if small). Because it is clearly a map, it gives an indication to the reader that all is not as it seems, also, a reader is much more likely to click on an image that they can't see clearly than they are to click on a link that they think they know where it goes. We could zoom the DYK image in slightly to make it a bit more clear as well. — Insertcleverphrasehere (or here) 22:59, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
I don't feel that strongly about it, but it might work with a very cropped version of the image. I still feel more comfortable avoiding the Easter egg approach, because the matter increasingly seems to me to be too serious to be joking about to that extent. I think it's still plenty funny with the full street names. And, as another editor pointed out earlier, there is also a pun on "row". --Tryptofish (talk) 23:11, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
The pings won't go through unless the comment is signed in the same edit where the ping is made. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:17, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
Noted. ​ — Insertcleverphrasehere (or here) 23:25, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
Yes it is an Americanism. Here's the UK version of "Sunset and Vine." Martinevans123 (talk) 23:12, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
Using the Americanism should be ok per the April Fools rules, but would be inappropriate if not on April fools (that is why I stated above that ALT6 is AF only). — Insertcleverphrasehere (or here) 23:19, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
Map showing Trump St connected to Russia Row
  • ALT6, absolutely, for 4/1 and with the image obviously. Perhaps we could put the final nail in the BLP-hysteria coffin by changing the caption as seen at right. Insertcleverphrasehere, the addition of the map is fucking BRILLIANT. Speaking as a highly respected hooker myself, I doff my hat and bow down to you. EEng 23:45, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
  • EEng may be driving me up the wall, but his idea about revising the image caption is also f–ing brilliant. I've changed my mind. I now support either ALT1 now, or ALT6 on April 1, with the revised image caption, and maybe also with some cropping of the image. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:51, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
I've cropped to make it square (to make best use of front-page format) and focus on the two streets. EEng 00:45, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
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