Talk:Non-binary gender: Difference between revisions
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* '''Support''' move to [[Non-binary]] or, preferably, [[Non-binary gender]]. --[[User:Equivamp|Equivamp]] - <small>[[User talk:Equivamp|talk]]</small> 00:46, 2 May 2019 (UTC) |
* '''Support''' move to [[Non-binary]] or, preferably, [[Non-binary gender]]. --[[User:Equivamp|Equivamp]] - <small>[[User talk:Equivamp|talk]]</small> 00:46, 2 May 2019 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' [[Non-binary gender]] per the research above. '''Oppose''' [[Non-binary]] as an unnecessary violation of [[WP:NOUN]]. -- [[User:King of Hearts|King of]] [[User:King of Hearts|<font color="red">♥</font>]] [[User talk:King of Hearts|<font color="red">♦</font>]] [[Special:Contributions/King of Hearts|<font color="black">♣</font>]] ♠ 03:01, 2 May 2019 (UTC) |
*'''Support''' [[Non-binary gender]] per the research above. '''Oppose''' [[Non-binary]] as an unnecessary violation of [[WP:NOUN]]. -- [[User:King of Hearts|King of]] [[User:King of Hearts|<font color="red">♥</font>]] [[User talk:King of Hearts|<font color="red">♦</font>]] [[Special:Contributions/King of Hearts|<font color="black">♣</font>]] ♠ 03:01, 2 May 2019 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''', per [[WP:Common name]]/reliable sources thus far/what [[User:Legitimus|Legitimus]] and I argued in the previous discussion, now seen at [[Talk:Genderqueer/Archive 5#Requested move 4 June 2018]]. Don't be fooled by WanderingWanda's argument. Nothing has changed since that June 2018 move request. This is just more "move the article" reasoning based on nothing concrete. There's a reason that the article has repeatedly failed to be moved away from "Genderqueer," and that is because "genderqueer" is still the common name. I'm just going to copy and paste what I posted last time. If the article is moved even considering this, I'll just consider that [[WP:Activism|activism]] has finally won out. But this is what I stated last time: At this point, the repeated move proposals based on supposed offensiveness and faulty Google statistics is bordering on [[WP:Disruptive]]. It's similar to [[WP:Forum shopping]] in the sense that a few editors are trying time after time until they get the answer they want. Although "non-binary" has gained traction in the last few years in the trans community, there is absolutely no proof that "a larger majority of 'genderqueer' folks identify as non-binary" rather than as genderqueer. Further, we don't give in to appease the side that has less support in the literature. We follow the literature with [[WP:Due weight]]. '''There also are few or no sources to support the alternative name suggestions.''' [An editor talked about] [[Google Trends]] showing "trends have shifted towards the usage of non-binary/nonbinary vs. genderqueer in the last few years." I challenge this as being truthful. '''This is because the vast majority of the "non-binary"/"nonbinary" sources are not about gender or humans at all.''' It's also the case that the term "genderqueer" received the most attention in the last few years, with its entry into dictionaries and the like. [[Google Ngram]] [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=genderqueer%2Cnon-binary+gender&year_start=1900&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cgenderqueer%3B%2Cc0 still shows] "genderqueer" as the leader. So does [https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?q=genderqueer,non-binary%20gender this] Google Trends link pointed to in the 2017 previous move discussion. Notice that it compares "non-binary gender" to "genderqueer." It doesn't go on "non-binary" without the gender aspect attached to the term. And here's why: [See [[Talk:Genderqueer/Archive 4#Separate Article For Nonbinary|this]], where [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] stated], "Another complicating factor is in the data gathering. Interpreting search counts, trends, ngrams, and other data can be tricky. [The analysis that ''nonbinary'' is more common than ''genderqueer''] is flawed, because you have plenty of 'non-binary algorithms' but no 'genderqueer algorithms'. (Well, there is [https://www.google.com/search?q=%22genderqueer+algorithm%22 one example] of the latter on the internet!) And if you look at what's happening to the curves in that graph, ''genderqueer'' shot up from nowhere starting around 1992, whereas ''non-binary'' has lost ground in that same period. In fact, if you look at the [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=nonbinary+*&year_start=1920&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t2%3B%2Cnonbinary%20%2A%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bnonbinary%20codes%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bnonbinary%20BCH%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bnonbinary%20numbers%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bnonbinary%20case%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bnonbinary%20code%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bnonbinary%20variables%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bnonbinary%20symbols%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bnonbinary%20and%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bnonbinary%20data%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bnonbinary%20block%3B%2Cc0 top ten words following the term ''non-binary''] in Google books, they are: (''codes'', ''BCH'', ''and'', ''data'', ''code'', ''block'', ''variables'', ''symbols'', ''case'', ''numbers'') '''none of which are about people.''' This is just to point out that comparing these counts and data can be trickier than one would imagine at first blush." And I stated pretty much the same thing [in 2017], by noting that "If we [https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=Genderqueer look at ''genderqueer'' on Google Books], we get a lot of sources for it, with a number of them using ''genderfluid'' or similar as a synonym or as a subset of the term ''genderqueer.'' When we [https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=Non-binary+ look at ''non-binary'' on Google Books], we get ''far less uses of the term'' with regard to gender. Legitimus argued similarly. See Legitimus's research below: |
*'''Oppose''', per [[WP:Common name]]/reliable sources thus far/what [[User:Legitimus|Legitimus]] and I argued in the previous discussion, now seen at [[Talk:Genderqueer/Archive 5#Requested move 4 June 2018]]. Don't be fooled by WanderingWanda's argument. Nothing has changed since that June 2018 move request. This is just more "move the article" reasoning based on nothing concrete. There's a reason that the article has repeatedly failed to be moved away from "Genderqueer," and that is because "genderqueer" is still the common name. I'm just going to copy and paste what I posted last time. |
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{{collapse top|title=Copy-pasted material from previous RM discussion.}} |
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If the article is moved even considering this, I'll just consider that [[WP:Activism|activism]] has finally won out. But this is what I stated last time: At this point, the repeated move proposals based on supposed offensiveness and faulty Google statistics is bordering on [[WP:Disruptive]]. It's similar to [[WP:Forum shopping]] in the sense that a few editors are trying time after time until they get the answer they want. Although "non-binary" has gained traction in the last few years in the trans community, there is absolutely no proof that "a larger majority of 'genderqueer' folks identify as non-binary" rather than as genderqueer. Further, we don't give in to appease the side that has less support in the literature. We follow the literature with [[WP:Due weight]]. '''There also are few or no sources to support the alternative name suggestions.''' [An editor talked about] [[Google Trends]] showing "trends have shifted towards the usage of non-binary/nonbinary vs. genderqueer in the last few years." I challenge this as being truthful. '''This is because the vast majority of the "non-binary"/"nonbinary" sources are not about gender or humans at all.''' It's also the case that the term "genderqueer" received the most attention in the last few years, with its entry into dictionaries and the like. [[Google Ngram]] [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=genderqueer%2Cnon-binary+gender&year_start=1900&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cgenderqueer%3B%2Cc0 still shows] "genderqueer" as the leader. So does [https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?q=genderqueer,non-binary%20gender this] Google Trends link pointed to in the 2017 previous move discussion. Notice that it compares "non-binary gender" to "genderqueer." It doesn't go on "non-binary" without the gender aspect attached to the term. And here's why: [See [[Talk:Genderqueer/Archive 4#Separate Article For Nonbinary|this]], where [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] stated], "Another complicating factor is in the data gathering. Interpreting search counts, trends, ngrams, and other data can be tricky. [The analysis that ''nonbinary'' is more common than ''genderqueer''] is flawed, because you have plenty of 'non-binary algorithms' but no 'genderqueer algorithms'. (Well, there is [https://www.google.com/search?q=%22genderqueer+algorithm%22 one example] of the latter on the internet!) And if you look at what's happening to the curves in that graph, ''genderqueer'' shot up from nowhere starting around 1992, whereas ''non-binary'' has lost ground in that same period. In fact, if you look at the [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=nonbinary+*&year_start=1920&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t2%3B%2Cnonbinary%20%2A%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bnonbinary%20codes%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bnonbinary%20BCH%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bnonbinary%20numbers%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bnonbinary%20case%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bnonbinary%20code%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bnonbinary%20variables%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bnonbinary%20symbols%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bnonbinary%20and%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bnonbinary%20data%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bnonbinary%20block%3B%2Cc0 top ten words following the term ''non-binary''] in Google books, they are: (''codes'', ''BCH'', ''and'', ''data'', ''code'', ''block'', ''variables'', ''symbols'', ''case'', ''numbers'') '''none of which are about people.''' This is just to point out that comparing these counts and data can be trickier than one would imagine at first blush." And I stated pretty much the same thing [in 2017], by noting that "If we [https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=Genderqueer look at ''genderqueer'' on Google Books], we get a lot of sources for it, with a number of them using ''genderfluid'' or similar as a synonym or as a subset of the term ''genderqueer.'' When we [https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=Non-binary+ look at ''non-binary'' on Google Books], we get ''far less uses of the term'' with regard to gender. Legitimus argued similarly. See Legitimus's research below: |
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{{collapse top|title=Click on this for Legitimus's research}} |
{{collapse top|title=Click on this for Legitimus's research}} |
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*I am seeing personal opinions and other [[WP:OR]] touted as equally valid to strong sourcing, evidence of inexperienced users drawn by the canvasing. Second, I performed an analysis of my own using an powerful academic database associated with a major national library that produces cleaner, more carefully organized results than google scholar in an attempt to determine frequency of terminology. The search is specifically limited to strong, peer reviewed sources and academically accredited books. My results are as follows: |
*I am seeing personal opinions and other [[WP:OR]] touted as equally valid to strong sourcing, evidence of inexperienced users drawn by the canvasing. Second, I performed an analysis of my own using an powerful academic database associated with a major national library that produces cleaner, more carefully organized results than google scholar in an attempt to determine frequency of terminology. The search is specifically limited to strong, peer reviewed sources and academically accredited books. My results are as follows: |
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:Where are [the many] academic sources using the term ''non-binary'' or ''non-binary gender'' to cover all of the history, language, etc. for western gender identities that fall outside of the [[gender binary]]? I'm not seeing many. [...] Except for the Google Scholar sources that happen to use the term "non-binary" or "non-binary gender" to address genderqueer and nonconformity issues, especially [[childhood gender nonconformity]], there is scant academic usage for ''non-binary'' or ''non-binary gender'' when compared to the wealth that the term ''genderqueer'' has. A number of those Google Scholar sources are using "genderqueer" interchangeably or alongside "non-binary," "non-binary gender" and/or "gender nonconforming." Also note [https://www.britannica.com/topic/genderqueer the Encyclopedia Britannica entry] on the term ''genderqueer'' and its history. That encyclopedia does not have a "Non-binary" or "Non-binary gender" entry. For dictionary sources, "genderqueer" also prevails with regard to gender. [Most of the] academic material [...] for "non-binary" material that actually is about gender, and is not about gender nonconformity as a whole, mixes in [[third gender]] material, which obviously already has a Wikipedia article. If we want to cover the supposed non-neutral-ness of the term ''genderqueer'', we do that by locating reliable sources stating as much and covering it in the article, not by overriding our WP:Common name policy. The most that I would support is renaming the article "Genderfluid" or "Genderqueer and non-binary" [or "Non-binary gender identities"]. But "genderfluid" isn't used as an umbrella term as much as "genderqueer" is, and it's sometimes used as subset of "genderqueer." And "Genderqueer or non-binary" and "Genderqueer and non-binary" are long-winded and suggest a difference, when sources overwhelming treat the two as synonyms or list "non-binary" under "genderqueer," for western gender identities. |
:Where are [the many] academic sources using the term ''non-binary'' or ''non-binary gender'' to cover all of the history, language, etc. for western gender identities that fall outside of the [[gender binary]]? I'm not seeing many. [...] Except for the Google Scholar sources that happen to use the term "non-binary" or "non-binary gender" to address genderqueer and nonconformity issues, especially [[childhood gender nonconformity]], there is scant academic usage for ''non-binary'' or ''non-binary gender'' when compared to the wealth that the term ''genderqueer'' has. A number of those Google Scholar sources are using "genderqueer" interchangeably or alongside "non-binary," "non-binary gender" and/or "gender nonconforming." Also note [https://www.britannica.com/topic/genderqueer the Encyclopedia Britannica entry] on the term ''genderqueer'' and its history. That encyclopedia does not have a "Non-binary" or "Non-binary gender" entry. For dictionary sources, "genderqueer" also prevails with regard to gender. [Most of the] academic material [...] for "non-binary" material that actually is about gender, and is not about gender nonconformity as a whole, mixes in [[third gender]] material, which obviously already has a Wikipedia article. If we want to cover the supposed non-neutral-ness of the term ''genderqueer'', we do that by locating reliable sources stating as much and covering it in the article, not by overriding our WP:Common name policy. The most that I would support is renaming the article "Genderfluid" or "Genderqueer and non-binary" [or "Non-binary gender identities"]. But "genderfluid" isn't used as an umbrella term as much as "genderqueer" is, and it's sometimes used as subset of "genderqueer." And "Genderqueer or non-binary" and "Genderqueer and non-binary" are long-winded and suggest a difference, when sources overwhelming treat the two as synonyms or list "non-binary" under "genderqueer," for western gender identities. |
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:As seen by their vote above, Equivamp has changed their mind about this matter, but I'm willing to bet that, just like me, [[User:SmokeyJoe|SmokeyJoe]], Legitimus, and Mathglot are still wondering where the solid evidence is for going with "non-binary" or "non-binary gender." How are we going to declare either of those terms the common name, given the evidence that Legitimus, Mathglot and myself have presented? I'll go ahead and alert [[Wikipedia talk:Article titles]] to this discussion. [[User:Flyer22 Reborn|Flyer22 Reborn]] ([[User talk:Flyer22 Reborn|talk]]) 05:18, 2 May 2019 (UTC) |
:As seen by their vote above, Equivamp has changed their mind about this matter, but I'm willing to bet that, just like me, [[User:SmokeyJoe|SmokeyJoe]], Legitimus, and Mathglot are still wondering where the solid evidence is for going with "non-binary" or "non-binary gender." How are we going to declare either of those terms the common name, given the evidence that Legitimus, Mathglot and myself have presented? I'll go ahead and alert [[Wikipedia talk:Article titles]] to this discussion. [[User:Flyer22 Reborn|Flyer22 Reborn]] ([[User talk:Flyer22 Reborn|talk]]) 05:18, 2 May 2019 (UTC) |
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![]() | On June 2016, it was proposed that this article be moved from Genderqueer to Non-binary gender. The result of the discussion was No consensus. |
![]() | On 4 June 2018, it was proposed that this article be moved from Genderqueer to Non-binary gender identities. The result of the discussion was No consensus. |
Nonbinary and Gender Queer
GenderQueer and Nonbinary aren't the same thing. Nonbinary means that you don't identify by any gender. GenderQueer means that you don't know what you are yet and are in the process of figuring it out.
Citation: http://www.transstudent.org/definitions/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fairieserum (talk • contribs) 19:46, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
- They are generally synonymous according to other sources. Non-binary and genderqueer usually means anyone who does not fit into the "man"/"woman" binary. EvergreenFir (talk) 19:48, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
- You're even misrepresenting the content of the page you add as citation. It says:
- Nonbinary (Also Non-Binary): Preferred umbrella term for all genders other than female/male or woman/man, used as an adjective (e.g. Jesse is a nonbinary person). Not all nonbinary people identify as trans and not all trans people identify as nonbinary. Sometimes (and increasingly), nonbinary can be used to describe the aesthetic/presentation/expression of a cisgender or transgender person.
- This says very clearly that nonbinary people can have a gender, except female/woman or male/man.
- Nowadays, the term genderqueer has become largely synonymous with nonbinary; however, it can also refer to a specific nonbinary gender, to a type of gender presentation (in my experience, nonbinary is mainly used for genders, not presentations), or (as coined in the 1990s) be an umbrella term for all gender-nonconforming or gender variant people (like the transgender umbrella, although transgender is now rarely used in the "umbrella" sense and usually limited to people with a mismatch between their experienced gender and their birth assignment, so for example crossdressers, drag artists and butch lesbians without such a mismatch aren't included). --Florian Blaschke (talk) 03:27, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
- Using transgender as an umbrella term, meaning so that it also covers genderqueer/non-binary identities, is more recent than the strict use of transgender (which refers to a mismatch with regard to assigned sex and a male or female gender identity). It is only in recent years that the genderqueer/non-binary identities have taken off, which is why this 2005 source in the Transgender article states, "Yet Jordan and Nick represent a segment of transgender communities that have largely been overlooked in transgender and student development research – individuals who express a non-binary construction of gender." If using transgender to refer to cross-dressers, yes, that is an older application of the term, but it's non-standard. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 04:22, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
- Just to clarify, "transgender umbrella" usually refers to the inclusive sense current in the 1990s and 2000s (illustrations for the "transgender umbrella" found on the web make this clear). In the past, puristic transsexuals often objected to the term "transgender", or rejected it outright, because it would lump them together with crossdressers and drag queens – including cis-male-identified ones.
- Now, gender non-conforming people without a mismatch are not usually termed transgender anymore (except by outsiders who confuse, for example, drag and transgender). Only those with such a mismatch are, whether their gender is binary or non-binary (although some non-binary people do not think of themselves as transgender). It is true that non-binary gender was an obscure concept in the past, so transgender people were not usually thought of as, in some cases, outside the binary. Instead, some people who were once thought of as "merely gender non-conforming" have recently started to think of themselves as non-binary. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 06:29, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
- What "inclusive sense" are you referring to? If you mean genderqueer/non-binary identities, including them was not the common use of transgender back in the 1990s and 2000s, considering that the genderqueer identity, as noted by this 2009 "Encyclopedia of Gender and Society, Volumes 1-2" source, from Sage Publications, page 402, was "first widely used in the late 1990s" (emphasis on "late") and "genderqueer is an identity more frequently embraced by younger gender nonconforming people." Such identities were not nearly as common in the past as they are today. Again, these people (disregarding the third gender topic) usually not having been recognized in the literature is why the aforementioned 2005 source states that "[this] segment of transgender communities" had "largely been overlooked in transgender and student development research." It was far more common to see transgender refer to cross-dressers than to anyone who identified as non-binary. These days, transgender is used more broadly in the literature than it used to be, which is why the first three sources in the Transgender article are relatively recent. That stated, it's still the case that transgender is usually taken to mean a mismatch with regard to assigned sex and a male or female gender identity, especially in the medical literature. When sources speak of transgender people, they usually are not speaking of genderqueer/non-binary people; that is not new. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 07:18, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
- I meant the "inclusive sense" that included all crossdressers, drag artists, masculine women, feminine men, etc., regardless of mismatch or not. Enter "transgender umbrella" into the Google image search, for example, to see what I mean.
- Basically, "transgender" started out in 1965 as a synonym for "transsexual" (some "transsexuals" may well have been non-binary in the past, too, just not usually talked about it, especially since gatekeepers would not have understood or appreciated it), then it became, by and by, extremely inclusive (becoming effectively synonymous with what is now "gender variant", and what was the initial sense of "genderqueer"), leading to rejection of the term by some transsexuals; now (since the early 2010s or so?) it has been restricted again to people with an actual mismatch, though there is no necessity for a binary identification anymore. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 13:00, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
- You stated that "transgender is now rarely used in the 'umbrella' sense." The "rarely" assertion is incorrect in terms of genderqueer/non-binary people, which is why the first three aforementioned sources in the Transgender article are relatively recent. If using transgender as an umbrella term was rare these days, reliable sources would note it and we would note it in the Transgender article. If you mean that transgender is rarely used to refer to cross-dressers, feminine men, and masculine women, that is another matter, and I'll get to that in a moment. The Transgender article (in its lead) does currently state that "infrequently, the term transgender is defined very broadly to include cross-dressers." Your initial comment made it seem like using transgender as an umbrella term for genderqueer/non-binary people was a phase that quickly died out and that the strict use of transgender that doesn't include non-binary people is the recent development. Again, by "strict use, I mean a mismatch with regard to assigned sex and a male or female gender identity. I also mean the use more so associated with men who cross-dressed or trans women. More on the latter further in this paragraph. This is why I responded and began by stating that using transgender as an umbrella term so that it also covers genderqueer/non-binary identities is more recent than the strict use of transgender. That there has been debate regarding transgender vs. transsexual, with some transsexual people objecting to being called transgender, is a matter we cover in both the Transgender and Transsexual articles. You stated that transgender included all "crossdressers, drag artists, masculine women, feminine men, etc., regardless of mismatch or not." But, really, all those people were considered homosexual, which is why we have a note in the lead of the Stonewall riots article stating that "At the time, the term 'gay' was commonly used to refer to all LGBT people." History was not good about differentiating between homosexual people and transgender people. The term transgender went through an evolution, and trans terms now considered derogatory, such as transvestite and tranny, were generally not used to refer to gay people who did not present as the opposite sex. Rather, they needed to appear like they were presenting as the opposite sex to be called those terms. A woman simply looking masculine facial-wise or acting masculine was not enough to call her trans. If she "dressed like a man," then should was likelier to be considered homosexual than trans. Furthermore, transgender (and similar terms) were commonly applied to men rather than to women. See this 2013 "The Transgender Phenomenon" source, from Sage Publications, pages 13-23, for extensive history on the term transgender and similar and their evolution.
- What "inclusive sense" are you referring to? If you mean genderqueer/non-binary identities, including them was not the common use of transgender back in the 1990s and 2000s, considering that the genderqueer identity, as noted by this 2009 "Encyclopedia of Gender and Society, Volumes 1-2" source, from Sage Publications, page 402, was "first widely used in the late 1990s" (emphasis on "late") and "genderqueer is an identity more frequently embraced by younger gender nonconforming people." Such identities were not nearly as common in the past as they are today. Again, these people (disregarding the third gender topic) usually not having been recognized in the literature is why the aforementioned 2005 source states that "[this] segment of transgender communities" had "largely been overlooked in transgender and student development research." It was far more common to see transgender refer to cross-dressers than to anyone who identified as non-binary. These days, transgender is used more broadly in the literature than it used to be, which is why the first three sources in the Transgender article are relatively recent. That stated, it's still the case that transgender is usually taken to mean a mismatch with regard to assigned sex and a male or female gender identity, especially in the medical literature. When sources speak of transgender people, they usually are not speaking of genderqueer/non-binary people; that is not new. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 07:18, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
- Using transgender as an umbrella term, meaning so that it also covers genderqueer/non-binary identities, is more recent than the strict use of transgender (which refers to a mismatch with regard to assigned sex and a male or female gender identity). It is only in recent years that the genderqueer/non-binary identities have taken off, which is why this 2005 source in the Transgender article states, "Yet Jordan and Nick represent a segment of transgender communities that have largely been overlooked in transgender and student development research – individuals who express a non-binary construction of gender." If using transgender to refer to cross-dressers, yes, that is an older application of the term, but it's non-standard. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 04:22, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
- Also, this 2010 The Guardian source addresses the history of the terms, stating, " 'Transvestite' originated in 1910 from the German sexologist Magnus Hirschfeld, who would later develop the Berlin Institute where the very first 'sex change' operations took place. 'Transsexual' was not coined until 1949, 'transgender' not until 1971, and 'trans' (a very British term) not until 1996." Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:01, 29 January 2019 (UTC) The Transgender article does give a different date for the coining of the term transgender, but, similar to the "The Transgender Phenomenon" source, it also states, "The term transgender was then popularized with varying definitions by various transgender, transsexual, and transvestite people, including Virginia Prince [...]." Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:28, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
- I don't think we actually disagree. It is true that for a long time, transgender was largely confined to what we would now call "binary transgender" for clarity – the experience of one's gender as strictly female or male, yet in contradiction to external or legal attribution –, although I'd wager that's only because the concept of non-binary gender was so obscure at the time (throughout the 20th century, especially in modern Western civilisation), and some people (such as Sylvia Rivera) were (or are still) widely considered binary even though they may not have been. Then, for a time, the radically inclusive sense of transgender, depicted here, saw at least some currency, leading to conflict (especially with transsexual women who were very adamant that they are really women and not merely men dressing up in feminine attire, which misconception they found the radically inclusive umbrella promoted). Now, with the rise of the concept of non-binary gender, which I think largely coincided with the falling into obscurity of the most inclusive sense of transgender, but also the HBS movement, and the work of Julia Serano and Cristan Williams as well as other trans activists and bloggers may have played a role in this, as well as the rise and (partial) fall of the trans* term which looks very much like a compromise (between transgender and transsexual); and now we have this model, the more limited transgender umbrella you mention, though I think it is very much in spirit with the meaning of the term as originally coined, in view of the fact that there is no sharp line between "transsexuals" and the rest (specifically, some non-binary people have all the surgeries, and some binary people have little desire for any kind of medical transition). --Florian Blaschke (talk) 00:40, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
- Florian Blaschke, per WP:Not a forum (and that's not an attack on you, though I have cited it to you at times), and therefore this talk page not being the place to debate what we are debating unless it's actually helping to improve the article, I'm not going to discuss the topic further in this section. I also prefer not to debate a topic for weeks or months, or longer, whether on-and-off or not, and I know that we could keep going and going for a week or more. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 15:10, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
- I don't think we actually disagree. It is true that for a long time, transgender was largely confined to what we would now call "binary transgender" for clarity – the experience of one's gender as strictly female or male, yet in contradiction to external or legal attribution –, although I'd wager that's only because the concept of non-binary gender was so obscure at the time (throughout the 20th century, especially in modern Western civilisation), and some people (such as Sylvia Rivera) were (or are still) widely considered binary even though they may not have been. Then, for a time, the radically inclusive sense of transgender, depicted here, saw at least some currency, leading to conflict (especially with transsexual women who were very adamant that they are really women and not merely men dressing up in feminine attire, which misconception they found the radically inclusive umbrella promoted). Now, with the rise of the concept of non-binary gender, which I think largely coincided with the falling into obscurity of the most inclusive sense of transgender, but also the HBS movement, and the work of Julia Serano and Cristan Williams as well as other trans activists and bloggers may have played a role in this, as well as the rise and (partial) fall of the trans* term which looks very much like a compromise (between transgender and transsexual); and now we have this model, the more limited transgender umbrella you mention, though I think it is very much in spirit with the meaning of the term as originally coined, in view of the fact that there is no sharp line between "transsexuals" and the rest (specifically, some non-binary people have all the surgeries, and some binary people have little desire for any kind of medical transition). --Florian Blaschke (talk) 00:40, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
Non-binary Flag?
Searching Non-Binary redirects to this page, so could someone maybe add that there’s also a separate flag for Non-binary individuals since not all nonbinary individuals identify as Genderqueer? (Such as myself) Championmoon (talk) 07:50, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
Oh wait never mind I found the non-binary flag Championmoon (talk) 07:54, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
Gender neutral honorific "Zer" (gender neutral version of Ma'am/Sir)
Gender neutral honorific "Zer" (gender neutral version of Ma'am/Sir) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nat MM (talk • contribs) 20:10, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
Similarity between agender, nongendered, genderless, genderfree or neutrois?
I guess these are mostly the same thing — should they all appear as separate terms in the lead? Is the lead the best place to raise them all? I'm thinking they could be removed from parentheses in the lead and referred to elsewhere in the article. All thoughts welcome. Cleopatran Apocalypse (talk) 01:26, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
- Cleopatran Apocalypse, per WP:Lead, the lead is meant to summarize the article. The "Definitions and identity" section covers these terms and is for detail on them. The lead is mentioning them because they are covered lower. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 02:42, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
Requested move 1 May 2019
![]() | It has been proposed in this section that Non-binary gender be renamed and moved to Non-binary. A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil. Please use {{subst:requested move}} . Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. |
Genderqueer → Non-binary – Per WP:COMMONNAME. Usage of the term non-binary has overtaken genderqueer. WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 22:04, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
Survey
Personally, I have a slight aesthetic preference for the term genderqueer, but we should follow common usage:
- Doing a search at http://www.WashingtonPost.com for all of 2018 and 2019, by my count: non-binary was used in reference to gender 49 times, and genderqueer 9 times.
- On the Wiki page List of people with non-binary gender identities, which covers "notable people" who are "non-binary", "genderqueer", and "genderfluid": 30 people are listed under non-binary, 18 under genderfluid, 11 under genderqueer, 4 under agender, and 3 under gender-non-conforming.
- On http://www.Glaad.org, for 2018-2019, 10 articles were tagged with non-binary, 2 with nonbinary, and 1 with genderqueer.
- In a recent interview with LGBTQ activist and author Jacob Tobia, they discuss (and lament) how usage of term non-binary has eclipsed usage of genderqueer (25 minutes in). WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 22:04, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
- Strongly SUPPORT move to "Non-binary gender" per nom, OR "Non-binary gender", OR "Non-binary gender identity/-ies" per previous discussions. See the previous few requests for some good explanations. "Non-binary" has clearly eclipsed "genderqueer" in common and and journalistic sources. Additionally, "non-binary" is a much better "catch-all" term for the many varieties of non-binary gender identities. "Genderqueer" is a somewhat controversial term, both for including the word "queer", and in that it sorta only kinda refers to a few of the many non-binary gender identities - many non-binary folks don't identify as "genderqueer", per se, but a larger majority of "genderqueer" folks identify as non-binary. "Non-binary gender" might be the better choice, WP:POVNAMING-wise. Also, "non-binary" is probably the most common term for this stuff to be used, and has really overtaken "genderqueer" in terms of popularity (and neutrality). Like, other pages (like Legal recognition or Discrimination) literally use "non-binary" to refer to this exact page in their own titles. In the words of Trankuility, "Genderqueer is a controversial title for this page, possibly because of inclusion of the word queer, or because it is only one of a number of possible non-binary gender identities. Using a neutral descriptor such as "non-binary" may not be supported by a larger number of reliable references (per previous talk page discussions), however it may reduce that controversy and provide for the better selection of appropriate page content. Non-binary gender is currently one of a number of redirect pages pointing to Genderqueer. Alternative page names may be better than Non-binary gender." That just about sums it up. Paintspot Infez (talk) 23:47, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks for the links to past discussions. I think "Non-binary" is precise enough without any additional words. Technically speaking, non-binary can refer to other things, but in practice, the term has become strongly synonymous with gender. If you Google the term you'll get a bunch of results about gender and not much else. Note also that Wikipedia doesn't even have a disambiguation page for "Non-binary": there isn't a single other topic that is a candidate for the title. WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 00:44, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
- I understand the emotional significance of your arguments, but they don't seem to be policy-based, except for one that argues against your position:
- "Non-binary" has clearly eclipsed "genderqueer" in common and and journalistic sources. Evidence please, or it ain't so. (Spoiler: it ain't so.)
- "Genderqueer" is a somewhat controversial term – Wikipedia is not censored.
- many non-binary folks don't identify as "genderqueer"... Very true. That has a bearing on the content of Wikipedia articles about those folks, per MOS:GENDERID, but it has no impact on the title of this article, per WP:NOTCENSORED and WP:COMMONNAME.
- "non-binary" may not be supported by a larger number of reliable references... This is (still) true, and is the only policy-based argument you raised. Unfortunately, it argues against your vote, and for keeping the current title.
- Afaict, your !vote amounts to WP:IJDLI, while your arguments actually support a "keep" vote. Mathglot (talk) 09:26, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
- Support move to Non-binary or, preferably, Non-binary gender. --Equivamp - talk 00:46, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
- Support Non-binary gender per the research above. Oppose Non-binary as an unnecessary violation of WP:NOUN. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 03:01, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose, per WP:Common name/reliable sources thus far/what Legitimus and I argued in the previous discussion, now seen at Talk:Genderqueer/Archive 5#Requested move 4 June 2018. Don't be fooled by WanderingWanda's argument. Nothing has changed since that June 2018 move request. This is just more "move the article" reasoning based on nothing concrete. There's a reason that the article has repeatedly failed to be moved away from "Genderqueer," and that is because "genderqueer" is still the common name. I'm just going to copy and paste what I posted last time.
Copy-pasted material from previous RM discussion.
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If the article is moved even considering this, I'll just consider that activism has finally won out. But this is what I stated last time: At this point, the repeated move proposals based on supposed offensiveness and faulty Google statistics is bordering on WP:Disruptive. It's similar to WP:Forum shopping in the sense that a few editors are trying time after time until they get the answer they want. Although "non-binary" has gained traction in the last few years in the trans community, there is absolutely no proof that "a larger majority of 'genderqueer' folks identify as non-binary" rather than as genderqueer. Further, we don't give in to appease the side that has less support in the literature. We follow the literature with WP:Due weight. There also are few or no sources to support the alternative name suggestions. [An editor talked about] Google Trends showing "trends have shifted towards the usage of non-binary/nonbinary vs. genderqueer in the last few years." I challenge this as being truthful. This is because the vast majority of the "non-binary"/"nonbinary" sources are not about gender or humans at all. It's also the case that the term "genderqueer" received the most attention in the last few years, with its entry into dictionaries and the like. Google Ngram still shows "genderqueer" as the leader. So does this Google Trends link pointed to in the 2017 previous move discussion. Notice that it compares "non-binary gender" to "genderqueer." It doesn't go on "non-binary" without the gender aspect attached to the term. And here's why: [See this, where Mathglot stated], "Another complicating factor is in the data gathering. Interpreting search counts, trends, ngrams, and other data can be tricky. [The analysis that nonbinary is more common than genderqueer] is flawed, because you have plenty of 'non-binary algorithms' but no 'genderqueer algorithms'. (Well, there is one example of the latter on the internet!) And if you look at what's happening to the curves in that graph, genderqueer shot up from nowhere starting around 1992, whereas non-binary has lost ground in that same period. In fact, if you look at the top ten words following the term non-binary in Google books, they are: (codes, BCH, and, data, code, block, variables, symbols, case, numbers) none of which are about people. This is just to point out that comparing these counts and data can be trickier than one would imagine at first blush." And I stated pretty much the same thing [in 2017], by noting that "If we look at genderqueer on Google Books, we get a lot of sources for it, with a number of them using genderfluid or similar as a synonym or as a subset of the term genderqueer. When we look at non-binary on Google Books, we get far less uses of the term with regard to gender. Legitimus argued similarly. See Legitimus's research below:
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- As seen by their vote above, Equivamp has changed their mind about this matter, but I'm willing to bet that, just like me, SmokeyJoe, Legitimus, and Mathglot are still wondering where the solid evidence is for going with "non-binary" or "non-binary gender." How are we going to declare either of those terms the common name, given the evidence that Legitimus, Mathglot and myself have presented? I'll go ahead and alert Wikipedia talk:Article titles to this discussion. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 05:18, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
- Note: To anyone responding to my above comment, do not break up my comment; this is per Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines#Editing others' comments. Respond after this comment. I want all of my comment together, in its original, long format. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 07:13, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
- Flyer, I've added subsection #Discussion below, if you feel like moving any of this there. If you do, feel free to move it above my discussion comment to retain chrono order with the original timestampe. Mathglot (talk) 09:48, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose – Quoting the Rfc statement supporting a move: Usage of the term non-binary has overtaken genderqueer. The evidence and hard data from published, independent, reliable, secondary sources clearly show that this is false. Per WP:COMMONNAME, the current article title is the correct one. Wikipedia is not the bleeding edge; we are a lagging indicator. Mathglot (talk) 09:42, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
Discussion
(forthcoming...) Mathglot (talk) 09:45, 2 May 2019 (UTC)