Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Television

MOS:TVIMAGE – explicitly allow (and maybe prefer?) show logos

See also: Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Television/August 2016 updates/PSE image

With regards to this section of MOS:TVIMAGE:

For a show's main article, an intertitle shot of the show (i.e., a screenshot capture of the show's title) or a promotional poster used to represent the show itself should be used.

I propose to replace it with:

For a show's main article, the show's logo, a promotional image used to represent the show itself, or an intertitle shot of the show (i.e., a screenshot capture of the show's title), should be used. In such a case where the logo is free to use, it is preferred over non-free media.

My reasons for the proposal are thus:

• This would reflect current practice: see, for example, The Simpsons, House (TV series), Sesame Street, all FAs which use representative free-to-use logos instead of non-free intertitles.
• Intertitles for use in infoboxes tend to have massive image compression problems to try to find a sweet spot with regards to passing NFCC, an issue that we can side-step with a free-to-use logo.
  • If free media can be found to represent a television show just as well as the intertitle, then WP:NFCCP#1 implicitly fails for the intertitle. RfC relisted by Cunard (talk) at 02:27, 1 December 2019 (UTC). Sceptre (talk) 20:56, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
• This would also bring us in line with other Wikipedias; taking The Blacklist for an example, the free-to-use logo (i.e. commons:File:The Blacklist logo.svg) tends to get used most often, followed by promotional images (e.g. zh:File:The Blacklist poster.jpg), then intertitles (e.g. en:File:Blacklist Title Card.jpg).

It's also easier these days than before to find vectorizable logos; for example, with the advent of Apple TV and 4K, there are very-high-quality logos available through web-scraping.

Kind regards, Sceptre (talk) 20:56, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

Discussion

Why was this taken straight to RFC instead of just starting a good-faith regular discussion and resultant consensus? -- /Alex/₂₁ 22:17, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

RfCs get more eyes on them. For such an effectively wide-ranging change, going to a RfC is appropriate. Sceptre (talk) 22:50, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

RFCs are typically used when an agreement cannot be reached through discussion. -- /Alex/₂₁ 22:56, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

WP:RFCBEFORE even says "Before using the RfC process to get opinions from outside editors, it's often faster and more effective to thoroughly discuss the matter with any other parties on the related talk page. Editors are normally expected to make a reasonable attempt at working out their disputes before seeking help from others. If you are able to come to a consensus or have your questions answered through discussion with other editors, then there is no need to start an RfC." --AussieLegend (✉) 04:54, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Survey

• Support as proposer. Sceptre (talk) 20:56, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
• Support. We actually prefer, I would think, an inter-title screen grabs of the logo (i.e., the on-screen title card) since it's more representative. However, in the rare case that a show's logo is somehow free content, WP copyright policy actually supersedes this preference: WP always prefers free content when it is available. Aside from that observation, the proposed change makes sense anyway, and it was silly that we didn't mention show logos, per se, at all.  — AReaderOutThataway ^t/_c 05:19, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose: There is absolutely nothing wrong with the current guidelines of MOS:TVIMAGE which states: For a show's main article, an intertitle shot of the show (i.e., a screenshot capture of the show's title) or a promotional poster used to represent the show itself should be used. — YoungForever^(talk) 22:02, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
• Support particularly to favor cases where a free version of the show's logo that would fail the threshold of originality can be made eg Diff'rent Strokes. Exceptions to use a shot of the opening title (which would be non-free) where the background or other elements of the title card are subjects of discussion in the article; for example Monty Python's Flying Circus's text can be recreated freely, but the use of Gilliam's animations that are part of that are well-noted (plus UK has a very low threshold so even just the "bends" in the words could qualify). --Masem (t) 02:35, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
• Support. I think this is what was intended by the current MOS. While I oppose instruction creep in MOS, this seems just more of a clarification rather than adding more nitpicking rules. --A D Monroe III^(talk) 23:20, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose Even if the logo itself may within free-use, i don't always agree that the logo can replace a promotional poster, or artwork showing the cast or artstyle.Blue Pumpkin Pie ^{Chat Contribs} 15:06, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

I changed my vote to oppose. IF you see The Repair Shop wants to replace this File:The Repair Shop.jpg over a less informative logo.Blue Pumpkin Pie ^{Chat Contribs} 22:29, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose. What readers recognize about a series, and what immediately identifies it, is the intertitle of the series name. About which the design elements often create a visible language that becomes a memorable association with the program. Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 04:58, 13 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Nowadays, I don't think that holds true. Logo has much more staying power than the interstitials, often which are the first to be lost due to excessive ads in television now. Now, if we're talking a carefully-crafted, static interstitial screenshot (probably the best example being Cheers and Frasier) that makes sense, but where the show's title is just text floating above random moving images, that doesn't help, while just the logo alone is best. --Masem (t) 07:04, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:Watchmen (TV series)#About starring cast order

 You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Watchmen (TV series)#About starring cast order. — YoungForever^(talk) 15:33, 5 November 2019 (UTC)Template:Z48

Article hierarchy clarification

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

The recent RM at List of Toriko episodes was closed as no consensus. One of the, in my opinion, silly claims was that because MOS:TV does not explicitly say that the main article for a TV series has to be a TV series article. I challenged the editor championing this claim to look for any of the 47,000+ articles that use {{Infobox television}} to find one series that did not use a TV series article as the main series article but he refused. I acknowledge that having a TV series article as the main article for a TV series is pure common sense but common sense is something that not all people are born with so I feel it needs to be included in the MOS. I'm not suggesting that this be mandated but that it should be "strongly recommended". Something along the lines of "Normally the main article for a television series is an article specifically about the television series" is what I'm recommending, "specifically" being included to avoid the situation where the main article is something that covers more than just the television series itself. Thoughts, opinions? --AussieLegend (✉) 00:54, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

Oppose for the reason that no MOS has any control of article heirarchy. The MOS is there to guide editors on how to organize articles. Not what article should be subject to what. By making that change, you are now attempting the MOS to be less of a guideline, and more of a policy.

It has to be stated for clarity's sake, AussieLegend wants this because s/he does not recognize Anime/manga articles as "main articles". For example: Toriko at the moment covers both the manga and anime. Three lists were split off from the main article for characters, chapters, and episodes. This editor believes if they add that verbiage, they can re-open the discussion and move List of Toriko episodes and move it into Toriko (TV series).

The editors of WP:ANIME disagree with this because it requires changing perfectly solid list into a poor-quality article. The editors of WP:ANIME don't want to immediately create a Start-class or a Stub-class without any hope of improving it to or . It was recommended that drafts be used instead. That way the article can be incubated and editors can work to improving it before theres no absolute proof.

This will not affect just that one article. But hundreds more for WP:ANIME. the reason it is this way is because majority of combined /manga articles done have enough information to sustain a good-quality article. The majority of them would just be list articles with some basic broadcasting information. Lack of production and reception information would prevent it from ever becoming a class.

By keeping it merged with the franchise article, it leaves room for expansion but doesn't affect the quality of the article. If more information is presented over the passage of time or by just having more resources, it will definitely allow a split. Examples are Sailor Moon (TV series) One Piece (TV series), Dragon Ball (TV series), and Fullmetal Alchemist (TV series). Blue Pumpkin Pie (talk) 03:00, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose for the reason that no MOS has any control of article heirarchy - This is completely irrelevant to what I am proposing, which is simply extra guidance since some editors obviously don't understand how TV articles are established. As I said I'm not suggesting that this be mandated but that it should be "strongly recommended".
• t has to be stated for clarity's sake, AussieLegend wants this because s/he does not recognize Anime/manga articles as "main articles". - You need to start assuming good faith and stop attacking other editors.
• it requires changing perfectly solid list into a poor-quality article. - As has been explained to you ad infinitum at 3 different venues now, this is not the case at all.
• This will not affect just that one article. But hundreds more for WP:ANIME. - The MOS already applies to 47,000+ articles. If it makes a few hundred more consistent with those 47,000+, that's not a bad thing.

Much of what you've said here is what you've argued elsewhere and is really irrelevant to this discussion. The purpose of this discussion is not to keep on about List of Toriko episodes, it's a discussion about adding some extra guidance to the MOS. It affects all editors, not just those from WP:ANIME. You've made you opposition clear. Instead of trying to confuse the discussion as you did at the RM, the Village Pump discussion and then the RfC, please stick to the topic and allow other editors to have their say. --AussieLegend (✉) 09:16, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

• Comment - There is a related thread here in terms of what has been brought up: Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous)/Archive 63#Request for Comment - 1 November 2019 - Is WP:ANIME subordinate to other projects?. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 04:02, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

That discussion really has no relevancy to this one. The aim here isimply to improve guidance for the editors who don't seem to understand the conventional practices that we follow when creating articles about television programs. --AussieLegend (✉) 09:49, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) I am opposing this because what your essentially trying to do is modify MOS:TV to close what is a perceived loophole to fix an issue that doesn't need fixing. I get that the reason to move List of Toriko episodes to Toriko (TV series) is because there isn't a parent TV series article but the answer to the solution is not renaming the LoE as if they are the parent TV series article. It is misleading to casual and first time Wikipedia readers and it is downright clickbait as it gives the impression the LoE is an article when it is not. WP:ANIME has said for a lot of these scenarios there isn't enough TV specific content to create a standalone TV article, WP:TV says its okay to have duplicating content across articles. Instead of putting all this effort into avoid working with WP:ANIME on an approperate solution why doesn't WP:TV actually take a look at some more mainstream shows like Tokyo Ghoul and actually create Tokyo Ghoul (TV series) utilizing both MOS:TV and MOS:ANIME to go along with List of Tokyo Ghoul episodes as a proof of concept to WP:ANIME??? In cases where a parent TV series article can't be created can those LoE be an exception and let their franchise articles be their parent article? Is it honestly that hard to extend an olive branch and try to work out something to achieve goals that will make both parties happy? Honestly this would be a lot better solution especially for our readers than just blindly moving a bunch of lists to article titles that do not accurately reflect their structure and content. Alucard 16_{❯❯❯ chat?} 05:55, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Alucard, I've worked with you a lot over the past few years so I know you are a good editor, however this comment just fails to understand the issue.

    You can't have an argument that says there isn't enough TV specific content to create a standalone TV article and then create a standalone TV article. A list article, is still an article.

    And to but the answer to the solution is not renaming the LoE as if they are the parent TV series article - this was already replied to numerous times - this isn't "just" a renaming. The article should eventually get enough information to actually be the series article.

    WP:TV says its okay to have duplicating content across articles - no it doesn't.

    And finally, remember that even if we were to create a TV series article with enough information for a specific series, then still per WP:TVSPLIT and Wikipedia:Article splitting (television), a single season would still need to be merged into the series article.

    All this to say is that arguing MOS:ANIME is just blindly missing the whole problem. --Gonnym (talk) 08:45, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

    • your [sic] essentially trying to do is modify MOS:TV to close what is a perceived loophole to fix an issue that doesn't need fixing. - Some editors are obviously misunderstanding simple, conventional practices and obstinately arguing that because the MOS doesn't explicitly say something that shouldn't need to be said they don't have to follow conventional practices. Clearly, something needs to be fixed.

      It is misleading to casual and first time Wikipedia readers and it is downright clickbait as it gives the impression the LoE is an article when it is not. - That's not correct at all. It was demonstrated by IJBall that the LoE page really is a main TV series article. You obviously understand that there isn't a main series article and that is the problem. A main series article can contain (and does for many series) a list of episodes but a LoE page should not exist without a main series article. That's how all TV series work. In any case, this is not about that particular LoE page. It's about trying to give extra guidance to editors to avoid confusion in the future.

      WP:ANIME has said for a lot of these scenarios there isn't enough TV specific content to create a standalone TV article - As Gonnym has said, you can't say there is not enough for a stand-alone article and then create a stand alone LoE article. I hate having to concentrate on Toriko but, as I've already said, IJBall demonstrated that there was enough content for at least a Start class article. Unfortunately, that work was reverted by another editor.

      Instead of putting all this effort into avoid working with WP:ANIME on an approperate solution - Nobody is doing that. There already is a well established solution, but a small number of editors refuse to accept that solution or suggest anything better.

      In cases where a parent TV series article can't be created - I'd argue that a parent TV series article can always be created. It's never been a problem with 47,000+ TV articles and IJBall demonstrated that it can be done with an anime article that some editors couldn't be done.

      Alucard, ... I know you are a good editor, however this comment just fails to understand the issue. - I agree with all of this. --AussieLegend (✉) 09:46, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

      • Gonnym and AussieLegend I appreciate the kind words and I don't think I got the point I wanted across which is my fault. I did not know about the past versions of Toriko so thanks for pointing that out AussieLegend. However I must admit here your deletion of content under another MOS during a high point of contention between WP:TV and WP:ANIME does not instill WikiPeace between the editors of the two WikiProjects. It also could give the impression that you are working against them FYI (not that I believe you are just pointing out how I saw it from a 3rd party perspective.)

        I fully understand that in most cases the parent for a "List of... Episode" article is a TV series article and usually shows with approximately 13-26 episodes don't qualify for a standalone list. I fully understand where y'all are coming from on that. However at the same time I understand where WP:ANIME is coming from as well in regards to their article structure where in most cases where the "franchise" article is serving as the parent article for the "List of.. Episodes" article. Both WP:TV and WP:ANIME have been around for almost the same amount of time (I'm not splitting hairs figuring out who was first it doesn't matter both are old.) In the same vein MOS:TV and MOS:ANIME have been around for almost the same amount of time (again y'all both old), both are "generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply."

        When I joined Wikipedia and found out about WikiProjects I knew WP:TV WP:VG and WP:ANIME were for me and so I've been with all three for a long time. I may not have been as active as I like but I have seen each WP grow, develop and evolve their MOS over the years. In other words I hold each MOS in the same regard and one doesn't take precedence over the other to me. So when conflicts like this arise for me this is how I look at each situation:

        1. I Ignore all rules and think "How does this improve Wikipedia?"

        2. How does this improve and enhance the reader experience?

        The RM didn't leave me with much confidence that moving these LoE to TV series articles would improve Wikipedia or the reader experience. Outside of Toriko, there is a lot of FL quality stuff here that could be impacted by moving a bunch of these lists to articles just to satisfy the standard that the TV series article before LoE. At the same time if some FA and GA franchise articles are not handled with care it would impact them as well. This would hurt both WP:TV and WP:ANIME. Like Naruto, List of Naruto episodes and List of Naruto: Shippuden episodes will require great care to separate the TV content into a separate article to ensure that the franchise article maintains FA quality and it would be desirable to have the TV series article as high as possible quality as well. Although I personally find no harm in the current structure of the Naruto articles and believe them to be easy to read for newcomers and first time readers.

        Outlaw Star is another GA article I'm concerned about in an attempt to split its TV content from the franchise article or merge the list of episodes back into the article. Angel Links on the other hand is one where you can merge the list of episodes into the parent article and it probably would benefit. To me it is really a case by case basis here and applying common sense. I actually feel for Attack on Titan (TV series) that the list of episodes needs to be split back out to List of Attack on Titan (TV series) episodes to improve readability. My goal is existing FA, GA and FL content is handled with the care it deserves by both sides and the LoE's that are moved or the new TV series articles that are created improve Wikipedia and enhance the reader experience. If that can't be guaranteed then its best to leave well enough alone especially with the FA, GA and FL content. Alucard 16_{❯❯❯ chat?} 12:05, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

• Support any clarifying with exact words TBD later so not to fork this discussion. --Gonnym (talk) 08:45, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose per the points given by Blue Pumpkin Pie and Alucard. I believe that WP:IAR applies here as this isn't something that needs fixing. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:44, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

It's not something that should need fixing but clearly it does need fixing. When editors refuse to follow a standard convention that has worked for 47,000+ TV series using the lack of an explicit statement in the MOS as justification, clearly something needs to be fixed. As for IAR, it's not enough to pull the IAR card, you need to justify why you think the rules need to be ignored. In this case you also need to explain what rules you think you are ignoring by opposing the proposal. I expect that will be difficult because there are no rules to ignore. You can't ignore a rule unless one exists to ignore and no rules are proposed. Citing IAR therefore makes no sense. --AussieLegend (✉) 08:14, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose as, I'm sorry AussieLegend, you appear to be attempting to fashion yourself a cudgel. Personally, I do not contribute to Wikipedia for the purpose of being an arms dealer.

Knowing none of the backstory regarding the specific articles in question, and caring even less about it (because that backstory has no real relevance to a discussion of guidelines), but based solely on your own writings here... well, let's just say that I agree with you on this point:

Some editors are obviously misunderstanding simple, conventional practices and obstinately arguing that because the MOS doesn't explicitly say something that shouldn't need to be said they don't have to follow conventional practices. Clearly, something needs to be fixed.
— User:AussieLegend

...Yes, clearly something does have to be fixed. And my perception, based on this discussion, is that the "something" in question is your perception of The Only Correct Way™ this should be done.

You've failed to establish your POV as consensus among the other editors working on certain articles, who clearly disagree that your viewpoint represents the only acceptable way to do things (or even just the "conventional approach"). So now you want a line in the MOS asserting that same POV, so that you can point at it and attempt to win the debate by making an Appeal to Authority.

But as numerous other editors have already pointed out, that's not the function of the MOS, WP:IAR is very much in play, and I think you probably need to take a step back and reevaluate your pre-existing biases on this topic. What you call "simple, conventional practices" can only ever achieve that status organically... not by fiat. If you were to succeed in writing your POV into the guidelines, it would no longer actually be "conventional practice". You'd have elevated it to imposed (or strongly recommended) house style... despite questions of content organization not being topical for the MOS. -- FeRDNYC (talk) 17:43, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose – per above. At this point it looks like you've decided you've lost the debate over at the Village Pump, so you've just decided to try and go around the discussion and force your own opinion on a set of articles that you don't edit simply because you don't like the fact that they are arranged differently. Consistant does not make articles better across the site. Different articles require different arrangements to be the best they can be. No one, and I mean NO ONE, should be trying to force other articles to fit some arbitrary mould that you've decided is right.--Ditto51 (My Talk Page) 21:28, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

• To be quite blunt I find some of the responses here offensive, bordering on personal attacks and being disruptive. If you've come here with the intent to disrupt this discussion as happened at the recent RM and 2 Village Pump discussions then please, go away. The entire purpose of this discussion is simply about providing additional guidance to editors not familiar with the conventional TV (and Wikipedia in general) article hierarchy. Please read the original post if you have not, as it appears some have not.

  I must admit here your deletion of content under another MOS during a high point of contention between WP:TV and WP:ANIME does not instill WikiPeace between the editors of the two WikiProjects. - The edit was fully justified and the problem that I fixed had been mentioned in related discussions. My edit summary pointed to MOS:LEAD and even quoted from it. If anyone had a problem with that sort of edit then perhaps they should not be editing Wikipedia. Since that edit four people, including you, have edited that page and I don't see that you have directly criticised them. Your edit was to revert me, which certainly is not the sort of thing that instills WikiPeace. People in glass houses and all that. There had previously been opposition to turning that article into a TV series article, and what I did was simply fixing an error that had been missed in all the other deletions.

  The RM didn't leave me with much confidence that moving these LoE to TV series articles would improve Wikipedia or the reader experience. - This discussion is not at all about the RM, nor is it about the 2 discussions at the Village Pump. It is simply about adding extra guidance (note specifically the word "guidance"!) to editors unfamiliar with creating TV articles and the normal hierachy that they follow.

  there is a lot of FL quality stuff here that could be impacted by moving a bunch of these lists to articles just to satisfy the standard that the TV series article before LoE. - Again, this is not about moving a bunch of these lists. It is simply to provide further guidance. As the OP states, nothing is being mandated and nothing is proposed for moves. Don't read more into this than has been stated.

  an attempt to split its TV content from the franchise article - Nobody has suggested this or anything similar.

  per the points given by Blue Pumpkin Pie and Alucard. - BPP has made a number of claims that have been thoroughly rebutted including some incivility and personal attacks, especially claiming that my intent is something completely different to what it is. Alucard has presented some valid opinions but he has also addressed a lot that has nothing at all to do with this proposal.

  I'm sorry AussieLegend, you appear to be attempting to fashion yourself a cudgel. - That is clearly WP:IDONTLIKEIT and you're opposition is based on attacking another editor. I suggest that you read WP:NPA which clearly says "Comment on content, not on the contributor."

  my perception, based on this discussion, is that the "something" in question is your perception of The Only Correct Way™ this should be done. - Again, "Comment on content, not on the contributor."

  So now you want a line in the MOS asserting that same POV - This is completely incorrect. The convention is already that the main article for a television series is a television series article, as demonstrated by the fact that 47,000+ articles do exactly this. This proposal is simply to provide extra guidance, including for those editors who can't, or won't, look at a TV series and say "Hey, 47,000+ articles use a television series article as the main article for a television series so maybe that's how this TV series should be setup."

  What you call "simple, conventional practices" can only ever achieve that status organically - That 47,000+ TV articles do that now demonstrates that the status has been achieved organically. The MOS was originally written to document the practices that were already in place.

  At this point it looks like you've decided you've lost the debate over at the Village Pump, so you've just decided to try and go around the discussion and force your own opinion - That's a complete and, quite frankly expected, misinterpretation of what has happened. What has actually happened is fully explained in the opening post. Have you read it?

  Consistant does not make articles better across the site. - That makes no sense at all. One of the main points of the MOS is to ensure consistency. It's strange how nobody has opposed this and, instead, just ignored it even though it has been mentioned several times. WP:MOS#Clarity quite clearly says "The MoS presents Wikipedia's house style, to help editors write articles with consistent and precise language, layout, and formatting, making Wikipedia easier and more intuitive for users." Given that the MOS says this, perhaps it's time to give up on the silly claim that consistency is not a good thing.

  No one, and I mean NO ONE, should be trying to force other articles - Nobody is doing that, as is quite clearly explained in this discussion's opening post.

I don't want to have to reply to any more posts like I have had to here. Please try to keep this discussion on track and specifically about the proposal made in the opening paragraph without tangential discussion of things that have no relevance. I'll say again, the RM and the village pump discussions are not relevant, nor is anything about having to move any anime articles because of any change because that has not been proposed nor is the intent to mandate that AS ALREADY STATED! And no more attacks. If you can't express your opinion without having to attack me, I am more than happy to take that matter further. --AussieLegend (✉) 06:05, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

@AussieLegend: i'm genuinely sorry you feel personally attacked, but you're not asking for this for the sake of clarity's sake. you still want something to come out of it, to deny that can be considered deceitful. No MOS should control the article hierarchy because that's not what the purpose of the MOS is. The goal of the MOS is to help present the information in an organized way.Blue Pumpkin Pie (talk) 06:46, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Your concern seems disingenuous given what follows and you are still making false claims about intent. Please stop your attacks. --AussieLegend (✉) 08:14, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

That is clearly WP:IDONTLIKEIT, and your position isn't also that? I'm sorry if you feel my comments are in any way attacking you, but you surely understand that people will see this as you trying to force your opinion after so many other debates have fallen either to the other side or into a stalemate. The guidelines aren't as accurate as you want them to be because that gives editors breathing room, as with WP:ANIME, to arrange articles in a way that allows them to produce the best articles better. No one who comes to Wikipedia is going to look at one TV series arrangement of pages and decide that it looks too different from another TV series' arrangements and then decide not to use the site because most people don't care. All they care about is if the article is a good article that is readable and has sources that can back up their opinion.--Ditto51 (My Talk Page) 09:55, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

No, that is clearly not my position. I have repeatedly cited MOS:TV, convention and the fact that 47,000+ articles follow the process, with only a small number of articles by comparison not following the convention. I had no problems with the MOS until it became clear that some editors were misreading/misinterpreting the MOS and using the fact that the MOS assumes common sense as a way of justifying their ignorance. I'm not saying that their actions were deliberate, I'm just noting that this demonstrates an issue that needs to be corrected. I've also cited WP:MOS#Clarity which says the MOS provides a way of making articles consistent, "making Wikipedia easier and more intuitive for users". If articles have a consistent look and feel it makes it far easier for readers to find what they want. have you ever actually read a paper encyclopaedia? A lot of people today have not. If you do, you'll see a consistent look and feel. Even newspapers do this. It does not make sense for us to be inconsistent and that is true from the main page right down through the article hierarchy. --AussieLegend (✉) 10:18, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

And what makes MOS:TV more relevent than MOS:ANIME? Orginising the articles the way you want doesn't make it nessisarily better, as has been explained. Yes consistanty is great, and making sure everything is readable is awesome, but there is a thing called overreaching. WP:ANIME arrange it differently because they think it works better for the articles that they are writing.--Ditto51 (My Talk Page) 10:31, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

In this discussion, MOS:ANIME is not relevant at all. This discussion is about MOS:TV. --AussieLegend (✉) 11:00, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Except that Toriko is an anime, and this started from that...and this discussion follows on from the others you have started in regard to anime series not following the same page structure as your 47000+ other articles. And that this discussion is without a doubt a way of forcing your interpretation of the MOS:TV onto WP:ANIME and MOS:ANIME because you don't agree with the way they are organising pages.--Ditto51 (My Talk Page) 13:11, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

MOS:ANIME is still irrelevant. We're discussing changes to MOS:TV that don't affect MOS:ANIME at all.

this discussion follows on from the others you have started - I've only started one other discussion, not "others".

this discussion is without a doubt a way of forcing your interpretation of the MOS:TV onto WP:ANIME and MOS:ANIME - No it isn't. This is only about changes to MOS:TV. If WP:ANIME and MOS:ANIME want to do things differently then they can. This change isn't even making any real change, it's just clarifying standard practice, for the people who are unable, or unwilling, to understand that practice. --AussieLegend (✉) 07:50, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose as per the reasonings by Knowledgekid87, Alucard 16, Blue Pumpkin Pie, Ditto51 and FeRDNYC. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 07:36, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

"Oppose per others" is not really a convincing position unless you can address the multiple flaws in their arguments that they have failed to address. Just saying. --AussieLegend (✉) 09:44, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

They can agree with other users without having to give an arguement, they don't have to give a reason if they agree with what the other users have said--Ditto51 (My Talk Page) 09:55, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

That's true but if you are supporting flawed arguments then your position does not mean much. That's why people at AfD, for example, saying "delete per foo" are given less weight than somebody who provides a rational reason to delete or keep. That's another example of consistency by the way. That the example I gave is about AfD is irrelevant, it's the same way most discussions are treated. --AussieLegend (✉) 10:18, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Except if they don't see any flaws, or if the flaws have been covered within the five or six people that they've said they're agreeing with, then they would just be repeating whats already been said--Ditto51 (My Talk Page) 10:31, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

If they don't see the flaws, that's their problem. I just like everyone's !vote to count. --AussieLegend (✉) 11:00, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

I just like everyone's !vote to count So why does it matter if he backs up what he believes? You don't get asked to justify why you voted for a particular party when you vote during an election. If people want to simply say they oppose or agree with a statement and believe that others have addressed every point that they want to make, then that is there choice. It doesn't make there vote way less, unless of course you don't want everyones votes to count?--Ditto51 (My Talk Page) 13:11, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Please tell me you're not serious. You've been around for long enough to know that Wikipedia doesn't work on counting votes. Decisions are consensus based which means giving !votes that are backed up with arguments more weight than a simple support/oppose vote. --AussieLegend (✉) 07:42, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Comment -I'm not sure there needs to be explicit language that it has to start with a a "TV series" article. I can understand that there may not be a lot of information to have a fully fleshed out main article, but if you don't have anything then you really don't have a page. At the end of the day, whether that starts with a "TV series" article or a "LoE" page, it still has to meet the WP:GNG. If you cannot find significant coverage of the topic, then it doesn't meet criteria to have a page. Listing the home media release does not make for significant coverage, nor does having a lot of sources that just confirm broadcast days. "Significant coverage" is defined at the GNG. So, ultimately, I would say if you're running into pages that only have an LoE page, then there is likely a good chance that the page doesn't meet the GNG anyway and it becomes a moot point. Looking at the page in question, I would say it CURRENTLY does not meet the GNG.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 19:17, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

@Bignole: Well the biggest reason why some lists can exist without TV series articles is because lists and articles have different criteria for notability.Blue Pumpkin Pie (talk) 19:38, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Can you show me that? Notability is notability. The only difference is that you have to show that a standalone list (i.e., a page that was not part of a split of a larger article) is notable as a list, and that the individual items within that list do not need to be notable themselves (which is also true of the reverse, that a list is not notable because the individual aspects of it are notable). So, I'd be happy to change my opinion if you can show me this "different criteria" you refer to.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 21:06, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

I think you may be referring to WP:CSC, but the only comparable example is the one they list like List of Dilbert characters, which is itself actually a split from the main Dilbert article. What you have with List of Toriko episodes is actually a page that ends up having an issue with WP:PLOT, specifically the "summary only description of works". Listing the home media release doesn't change the fact that page is basically 90% just a summary of plots, and since it isn't part of a parent article that needed a split, is not subject to notability criteria.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 21:11, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

List of Toriko isn't an independent stand alone list. its a content fork list from Toriko. When it comes to anime/manga. we do not create an anime TV series article until we have enough information to stand on its own. However the long list is still worthy of content forking from the main page. I recommend you do research on how Lists work.Blue Pumpkin Pie (talk) 22:10, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Notability is not inherited. A stand-alone list still has to meet the general notability guidelines.

I recommend you do research on how Lists work. - More incivility from you. Bignole has a long history of editing in the TV project and has had a lot of experience with lists, as well as extensive experince writing/contributing to this MOS. He has made 67,000 edits to more than 6,800 articles over 14 years, compared to your 3,200 edits to 547 articles over 1.6 years. I suggest that before you question the experience of editors in future you consider your own experience, or lack thereof as the situation requires. --AussieLegend (✉) 22:34, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

my comment remains the same Aussie.Blue Pumpkin Pie (talk) 23:11, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Discussion at Talk:Adventure Time: Distant Lands about episode summaries

 You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Adventure Time: Distant Lands#Paraphrase. The question is: Are we allowed to paraphrase press release descriptions of episodes for the episode summaries before they have aired? -- /Alex/₂₁ 23:26, 13 November 2019 (UTC)Template:Z48

Discussion re Category:Feminist television

At WikiProject Television: What is the purpose of this category? How does a TV article qualify for the category? Pyxis Solitary (yak) 07:23, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Linking of episode titles

At Talk:Forged in Fire (TV series)#Wikilinking of episode titles, I've questioned the linking of episode titles. Input would be appreciated. —[AlanM1(talk)]— 05:47, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:Magnum, P.I.#Requested move 3 December 2019

 You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Magnum, P.I.#Requested move 3 December 2019. — YoungForever^(talk) 00:37, 3 December 2019 (UTC)Template:Z48

Recurring character = 4 or 5 episodes?

In regards to this edit and claim by User:YoungForever: when was consensus reached that for a character to be considered recurring it needs to appear in "4 or 5 episodes". MOS:TVCAST states "a recurring story arc throughout the show", but it does not include a specific amount of appearances to become a recurring character, nor does the policy reflect a change based on the alleged consensus. Thank you. Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 03:56, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

This is what I have been told over and over again by many veteran editors who frequently edit TV series articles. — YoungForever^(talk) 05:49, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

I've been editing TV articles for several years. I get that many Wikipedia editors have an ocean of opinions about how articles should be edited. We all have opinions. But personal preferences are not MOS. Ignoring policies and guidelines in favor of personal alternatives leads to chaos, because what's good enough for one editor becomes what's good enough for another. Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 09:31, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

It's not personal preferences when there is a general consensus in MOS:TV and/or WP:TV Talk archives. — YoungForever^(talk) 16:33, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

@Pyxis Solitary: The full part of the MOS you want to look at is this: A cast member or character appearing in more than one episode, or in two or more consecutive episodes, does not necessarily mean that character has a "recurring" role. An actor or character may simply have a guest role across several episodes, rather than a recurring story arc throughout the show. If reliable sources cannot adequately distinguish between recurring or guest roles, then local consensus should determine their status. (bolding at the end mine) Local consensus should generally be taken to determine recurring status, because each series is unique, and not all follow the conventions of a "standard" 13/22 episode season. I will add that it is my personal preference (and that of many other TV editors), that "recurring" usually mean 4-5 appearances. That would be my opinion on the cast of Stumptown, which is a network, 20-22 episode show, so 4-5 appearances would make that cast member recurring in my eyes, to eliminate those who only come in for a couple episode arc and never return. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 22:01, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

@YoungForever: There was no "consensus". There have been discussions about recurring characters, but none of them resulted in MOS:TVCAST stating "4 or 5 episodes". Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 23:41, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

@Favre1fan93: I appreciate your response. I've read MOS:TVCAST and am aware of the statement you highlighted. However, the omission of a specific number of episodes cannot be ignored. And "local consensus" refers to the article -- i.e., the editors of an article reaching consensus; it does not mean a general discussion among editors at MOS:TV and WP:TV. The opinions of editors do not translate into official WP policy/guideline. That's the crux of this topic. We can have a hundred discussions about how many episodes it takes to make a recurring character, but if MOS isn't changed, then the "4 or 5 episode" idea is just an estimate based on a personal opinion shared by some editors. The editors who follow the MOS that exists, not the MOS that exists in the minds of some editors, are not creating uncertainty. Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 23:35, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

@Pyxis Solitary: A few (relatively minor) points:

1. the omission of a specific number of episodes cannot be ignored It's not really an omission, it's a specific avoidance of a number of episodes. In fact, there are specific numbers there, used to illustrate what doesn't make a recurring role: in more than one episode, or in two or more consecutive episodes. But just as there's no lower bound, there is (by implication) no definite threshold either.
   However, in doing that the MOS explicitly also doesn't abdicate its role in setting guidelines for how to consider these questions. Instead, it explicitly defers to WP:RS, and barring any definitive sources, to "local consensus".
2. But, at the same time: Ignoring policies and guidelines in favor of personal alternatives leads to chaos, because what's good enough for one editor becomes what's good enough for another. ...Taking the second part first, how is settling on "good enough" an example of "chaos"? To me it sounds exactly like reaching consensus means: A situation is arrived at that everyone can live with. Not necessarily the one anyone prefers, or that they think is best, but one that everyone is able to accept.
   Anyway, going back to the first part: Even leaving aside ignore all rules, it's not "ignoring" policies and guidelines when the guidelines explicitly defer to the editors' judgement. If someone were claiming that the MOS dictates 4 or 5 episodes as the cutoff for a recurring character, then they'd be ignoring the fact that it doesn't say that. But nobody has made that claim, so to accuse YoungForever or anyone else of "ignoring" the MOS strikes me as an overreach, to say the least.
3. There was no "consensus". There have been discussions about recurring characters, but none of them resulted in MOS:TVCAST stating "4 or 5 episodes". But that's not going to happen. Not because there isn't consensus (nor because there is), but because the MOS is explicit in not setting a hard and fast rule on the question. Instead, it defers to "local consensus", specifically (as Favre1fan93 says) because each series is unique. So, the argument that the MOS is silent on the issue, or that its lack of codified rule indicates a lack of consensus, rings hollow to me. The MOS is neither silent on the issue, nor does it contain a hard and fast rule. But in saying "figure it out for yourselves", in my view it neither supports nor contradicts either viewpoint here.

In my view (not that, you're right, personal opinions carry any weight here), part of the problem is that a simple episode-count threshold doesn't fully encompass the issue no matter what number you pick. "Recurring" means just that — goes away, and comes back again. A character who shows up one episode per season, three seasons in a row? Recurring character. But someone who shows up to be involved in a single multi-part storyline, then disappears and is never seen again? Doesn't matter if it's a run of 2, 5, or 10 episodes, that's still not "recurring" because it misses the "re" part. -- FeRDNYC (talk) 02:47, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

@FeRDNYC: All I see, and all it boils down to, is Pied Pipering among some editors: he or she does it, so that's how I do it, too. But all the discussions about recurring characters here or elsewhere hasn't changed the MOS:TV guideline. As I wrote above: "MOS:TVCAST states "a recurring story arc throughout the show"." This is the gauge provided by MOS for determining what is or isn't a recurring character. A character can appear in "4 or 5 episodes" (or more) -- but a recurring character should be essential in the overall story; it should have an effect on the plot and other characters in it. Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 03:28, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

As below, where are your sources for any of this stuff? Unless you can properly reference your definitions and rules, it's all OR MapReader (talk) 09:42, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

You can read something easy to digest such as this 1 ("Recurring characters may not be the primary focus of the show, but they often tie loose ends and clarify why certain events take place for the main characters.") and this 2 ("her appearances would also usually make the Friends realize something about themselves and move them forward"). A "recurring" character compares to a "supporting" character. See: Recurring character, Supporting character, and Supporting actor. Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 14:43, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

I think you may have missed my point? I know that ‘recurring character’ is often used in its plain English sense, meaning a character that appears in more than one episode, and therefore recurs. My point is that if you are going to use it as a category, mutually exclusive from both regular cast and guest, then you must either reference a definition or reference the terminology separately and directly for every character so described. Editors arguing about it amongst themselves and arbitrarily inventing a definition that exists solely within WP would be OR. (It is notable that the WP article you link to waffles around the subject in generalities rather than providing a clear definition) MapReader (talk) 15:59, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

"a character that appears in more than one episode, and therefore recurs." No. A "recurring" character has an effect on the plot and other characters in it, regardless of whether it appears in three or ten or more episodes. It is not a minor character and it is not a "guest".
"if you are going to use it as a category." I have no idea of what you're talking about. When and where did I suggest or state that a recurring character should be a category? I follow MOS:TV, not discussions among editors that when all is said and done do not amend MOS:TV.
"It is notable that the WP article you link to waffles around the subject in generalities rather than providing a clear definition." Maybe you should take a screenwriting class. Because you may not be happy with the lecture for whatever reasons you'll find questionable, but you'll have a professional instructor to explain it all to you. Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 03:26, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

Let’s be pleasant and stick to the subject, eh? On using it as a category, there are plenty of tables like this one around where editors have categorised each character/actor’s appearance. MapReader (talk) 20:12, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

How is most of this conversation not OR? Our job as editors is to record how things are (or are seen) by the rest of the world, not to be deciding ourselves how things ought to be described. If the wider world doesn’t use a descriptor we shouldn’t be using it here. If there are RS supporting someone’s description as a recurring character or a guest, or RS that provide an externally derived definition, then fine. If not, not fine; TV cannot make up its own rules that conflict with our site-wide standards. MapReader (talk) 05:51, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

MapReader, because local consensus exists. Personally, this is why I prefer "Recurring and guest" sections; it merges everyone who is not a main cast member into one section. -- /Alex/₂₁ 07:55, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

On that latter point, I agree. On the former, editors need to take care to recognise the limits of "local consensus". Local consensus is the way to sort out issues such as the balance of sources in favour or against a particular point. But local consensus cannot create rules or definitions that don't exist in the real world. To take an example from this thread, if TV critics and the media generally don't recognise a transition from "guest" to "recurring" after four or five appearances, then it doesn't matter whether every TV editor agrees or not, WP shouldn't be imposing that definition upon itself. Nor can local consensus override the standards and principles that apply to the whole site. The other, separate, point to make is that these terms derive from American television and we should be careful not to thoughtlessly impose American terminology onto a worldwide encyclopaedia. British programmes, for example, very rarely use these terms. MapReader (talk) 08:07, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

I'd even say that in today's world, where you don't need any real journalism credentials to work for a RS (such as IGN), even RS can use incorrect terms. I also think that "Starring" and "Recurring and guest" is the correct way to handle this. "Starring" and "Guest" are industry terms, while "recurring" is a descriptive term. --Gonnym (talk) 10:07, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

I would watch out for industry terms though such as "principal" or "supporting" as they tend to inflate guest roles in resumes, and would rather have them classified by starring vs. recurring/guest depending on whether or not they got star billing in the credits. As for the minimum number of episodes, it depends on the show, it's at least two distinct appearances in the season. So a person can have a recurring role over the entire series (can be listed in person's filmography as such) but if they show up only once per season each of those in the characters table and the season article is considered Guest. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 15:15, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

Are Lists of cast members still a thing?

From my recent AfD Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of people involved with Babylon 5, I was under the impression that IMDb-like cast lists are not welcome anymore at wikipedia.

Now I just found List of actors by British television series and its grand-parent Category:Lists of actors by television series. You can find my analysis of the British cast lists here: They are often just dumps of actor names (blue and red linked), and quite often, there is also an accompanying List of characters. On the other hand, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy cast lists and List of Doctor Who cast members seem quite useful.

This MOS doesn't really talk of cast member lists. If the IMDb-like data dumps are a thing of the past, this MOS should actively discourage them. I am even interested in cleaning up/redirecting/AfDing the articles in the grandparent category, but I need to know if there is consensus to do so. Comments? – sgeureka ^t•c 14:51, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

For categories see WP:PERFCAT. Most of those should be deleted. For lists, that depends on the show. Something like List of The Love Boat guest stars would be useful since the show is all about having celebrity guest stars take on episodic roles. I would also check if there are RS articles that make up such lists of cast members for comparison so that we're not doing the original research of juxtaposing the names. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 15:19, 11 December 2019 (UTC)