Talk:American Revolutionary War: Difference between revisions
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You mentioned how "O'Shaughnessy explains the actual powers of George III", but fell short of relating those powers to us here in Talk. Was Paine wrong when he said that the King had the "power to check the Commons, by empowering him to reject their other bills"? Did O'Shaughnessy say outright that this was a false assertion? It would seem your impression that the writings of the founding fathers has been "put on a par with the Bible as divinely inspired and infallible", a straw man accusation, is really your own. Do you harbor the same opinion in regards to the various British writings? All that has been discussed is whether the King had any power. You still seem to think the King was only a figurehead puppet and that he was above any criticism in terms of any ARW involvements. -- [[User:Gwillhickers|''Gwillhickers'']] ([[User talk:Gwillhickers |talk]]) 03:45, 3 December 2020 (UTC) |
You mentioned how "O'Shaughnessy explains the actual powers of George III", but fell short of relating those powers to us here in Talk. Was Paine wrong when he said that the King had the "power to check the Commons, by empowering him to reject their other bills"? Did O'Shaughnessy say outright that this was a false assertion? It would seem your impression that the writings of the founding fathers has been "put on a par with the Bible as divinely inspired and infallible", a straw man accusation, is really your own. Do you harbor the same opinion in regards to the various British writings? All that has been discussed is whether the King had any power. You still seem to think the King was only a figurehead puppet and that he was above any criticism in terms of any ARW involvements. -- [[User:Gwillhickers|''Gwillhickers'']] ([[User talk:Gwillhickers |talk]]) 03:45, 3 December 2020 (UTC) |
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:O'Shaughnessy writes, |
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::"In Jefferson's mind, George III always would be the villain, the antagonist in America's primordial narrative, its myth of origin. For Jefferson, this was not propaganda but objective truth. |
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::"In reality, George III had less power than virtually any other monarch in Europe. During the seventeenth century, Britain had two revolutions of its own in which the supporters of Parliament successfully deposed Charles I and James II. After the execution of Charles I in 1649, Britain was a republic for eleven years, and following the fall of James II in 1688, Parliament negotiated a revolutionary settlement in what became known as the Glorious Revolution. It included a Bill of Rights (1689), which became the foundation of the British Constitution and ensured that the crown would henceforth govern through Parliament. The monarchy retained the power to appoint the government, but its choice was limited in practice to prime ministers who had support in Parliament. Although the system of elections was corrupt and the crown had considerable influence through patronage, the survival of the government was always dependent upon the support of independent members of the elected House of Commons. The British consequently regarded their political system as a bastion of freedom and liberty, in contrast to the absolute monarchies of Europe. |
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:O'Shaughnessy further says that John Adams regretted going along with this misinformation. Also, "The colonial opposition embraced conspiracy theories claiming the king had destroyed the traditional balance of government by gaining total control over Parliament to establish a tyranny in Britain and America." |
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:It was not the author's intention to provide a point by point rebuttal of all the misinformation in the Declaration of Independence and ''Common Sense''. But he does show they are not reliable sources for British constitutional law. Bear in mind that the author is Vice President of the Thomas Jefferson Foundation at Monticello in Virginia, the Saunders Director of the Robert H. Smith International Center for Jefferson Studies at Monticello, and Professor of History at the University of Virginia. His book was published by the Yale University Press and won the 2014 [[George Washington Book Prize]] for best book on the founding era of the United States. That makes his book an expert source and reliable for the facts. |
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:As I pointed out, the cabinet had the power to give royal assent to bills if the king failed in his obligation and in fact did so during George's illnesses. Eventually they assigned his ceremonial roles to his son, who became Prince Regent. There is a distinction between the person who wears the crown and the corporation sole which is the symbol of authority. The Horseshoe Falls in Niagara is crown property for example, but that doesn't mean that if Queen Elizabeth is running short on cash she can sell it to a bottled water company. Or do you think she can? |
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:[[User:The Four Deuces|TFD]] ([[User talk:The Four Deuces|talk]]) 07:56, 3 December 2020 (UTC) |
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==King George's role during the ARW== |
==King George's role during the ARW== |
Revision as of 07:57, 3 December 2020
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American Revolutionary War was one of the History good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
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This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
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Military history project assessment request
status and updates
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At the 28-day old Military history request for this article, the update reports,
Updates as they occur (that's over 800 edits in 71 days since 30 August, and over the last 30 days, 29 editors and four bots with positive contributions incorporated into the article). - TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 13:18, 9 November 2020 (UTC) No further comment at the Assessment page this date. - TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 19:41, 2 December 2020 (UTC) |
Guidance from Peacemaker67 suggests an RfC at wp:MILHIST project Talk on the article title, if I understand him correctly. Pending. - TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 19:41, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
Copyedit request
preliminaires
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TheVirginiaHistorian (TVH), I'm going to separate points by section so that they're easier to sift through. If you have anything in particular to bring up feel free to do so. Each point can be considered its own conversation, so please leave indented (preferably unbulleted) replies underneath them. I'll strike my comments out when a resolution has been reached for them. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 21:41, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
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Courtesy ping: TheVirginiaHistorian I've got some questions about the "War breaks out" section. Anyone else is also welcome to add input. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 00:39, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
Courtesy ping: TheVirginiaHistorian (and others) for the "Strategy and commanders" section. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 23:11, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
pause discussion
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pingTo recently active editors (TheVirginiaHistorian—Robinvp11—Gwillhickers): There seems to be some major article restructuring going on that has removed some of the text I've copyedited. It appears there's still some contention over article content, so I will be suspending my copyedit until issues among primary editors have been resolved. This is not a jab at anyone, but rather there being very little point to copyediting when text hasn't been agreed upon and may be potentially removed wholesale. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 00:21, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
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Lede
completed Lede resolved & editor comments
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Panel discussion
Editor comments
Pending
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Prelude to revolution
Resolved
completed Prelude line-edits
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Pending
War breaks out
Resolved
Resolved points
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Pending
Strategy and commanders
Resolved
Resolved points
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Pending
Revolution as civil war
Resolved
Resolved points
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Pending
A note on captions
Discussion on captions
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Some few recent edits for captions on the page seem to reflect the work of an avid art historian. I encourage all to explore the Wikipedia Manual of Style, WP:CAPTION. The following are my takeaways for a lengthy history article such as the American Revolutionary War. “A good caption explains why a picture belongs in an article.” Details of artwork provenance are available to the reader by a “click through to the image description page”. The guidelines explain, “If you have nothing to say about it, then the image probably does not belong in the article.” In the example coded to the right, using the 'thumb' image, the parameter 'upright=1.0' allows easy tweek of pic size; the parameter 'alt=text description' is used to describe the image for sight-impaired readers. The purpose is to “draw the reader into the article”. Image captions should be succinct and informative. “Identify the subject of the picture.” Editors here populated the article with an image every 400 words to add visually interest within extended sections of text. But to balance that many images, captions are kept succinct; most are 2-3 lines to avoid either crowding image frames into adjacent sections below, or opening large white spaces between sections. In this example, the reader becomes curious about William of Normandy's new form of government and reads the text adjacent to learn what it is. The example is meant to illustrate a passage about William of Normandy's innovations in monarchial government, such as 'trial by jury' for a manor's peasant in the King's court composed of one's "peers", that is, local residents other than the Lord of the Manor's relatives or his soldiers-at-arms. - TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 05:52, 19 November 2020 (UTC) |
‘Global war and diplomacy’ - Robinvp11 and undiscussed reverts
At #Global war and diplomacy, Robinvp11 as the reverting editor gave a fragmented rationale for wholesale disruption of the section without discussion at Talk.
The first in a series begins with this, which has four (4) objectionable elements:
Issues with Robinvp11, resolved
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(#1) Robinvp11 removed image of the King choosing PMs before and after the political effects of Yorktown
(1.a) Robin initiates his edit-post wp:original research without sourcing or discussion at Talk. He arbitrarily chooses to off-handedly
(#2) Robinvp11, without further discussion, asserting 14-words is longer than 34-words is insufficient reasoning
(1.b) Robin perpetrates an unusual miscount on the article main-space, confusing the previous 15-words as longer than his own 34-words. The rationale:
(#3) (see also #6, #9) Robinvp11 imposed POV that George III was not significant in ending the ARW
(1.c) In an unsourced editor's wp:own proclamation without sourcing or discussion at Talk, Robin's POV:
(#4) Robinvp11 deleted Tory - Whig image balance representing the two parties supplying George III with PMs
(1.d) Robin deletes the two gallery portraits of successive Prime Ministers to George III, Lord North, and Lord Rockingham, leaving only a blown-up image of Lord North alone to lead the article.
The second in the "Robin series" is this, which has five (5) objectionable elements: (#5) Robinvp11 altered source attribution about the Carlyle Commission
(2.a) Source Hibbert wrote, "Before the Commission returned to London in November 1778, it recommended a change in British war policy." (Hibbert 2000, p. 160-161)
(#6) (see also #3, #9) Robinvp11 altered source attribution for George III
(2.b) Source Hibbert wrote, "George III still had hoped for victory in the South." (Hibbert 2008, p. 333)
(#7) Robinvp11 removed first step to Euro peace: international armistice
(#8) Robinvp11 POV removed 'American War' opposition in Parliament, Tory and Whig
(2.d) Robin, without sourcing or discussion at Talk, deleted the following account of Parliamentary opposition to continuing the 'American war', both Tory (Edward Gibbon) and Whig (William Pitt the Younger).
Comments:
(#9)(also #3, #6) Robinvp11 altered source attribution for George III
(3.a) Ferling source: "George III abandoned any hope of subduing America militarily while simultaneously contending with two European Great Powers alone. (Ferling 2007, p. 294)
(#10) Robinvp11 removed reference to the Second Hundred Years' War
(#11) to be completed(-) to be completed.
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Overall results
preliminary discussion
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I wonder if editors could comment on how we describe the overall results. To me, colonial America was controlled by the British government, but had a great degree of internal self-government. While not a democracy, the colonial governments relied on local elites for support. They lost this however after the British parliament imposed "intolerable" legislation and sent colonial officials to impose imperial legislation. Many colonists, from all ranks of society, remained loyal to Britain and some 80,000 "loyalists" left the colonies after independence. The distinguished historian Gordon S. Wood saw colonial America as a stratified society that would change into an egalitarian society as a result of the revolution. Gwillhickers sees colonial America as a semi-feudal state with lords and ladies and personally controlled by the King of Great Britain. A class of colonial officials from England formed the upper class, but left following the ARW. I don't know how accepted Wood's view is, but I see no support for Gwillhickers' view in reliable sources. For the overall results section,[2] we need to distinguish the degree of support various views have. It reflects Gwillhickers' view and uses Wood as a source. I think that Wood's view is misinterpreted and is in any case a minority view. TFD (talk) 10:53, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
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I propose, the following language, supported by RS footnotes, below. :Respectfully - TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 14:09, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
Proposed 'Legacy' section
- Political legacy
- The American Revolution established the United States and set an example to overthrow government by monarchy and imperial colonialism. The new republic spanned a large territory, justified to the world by Enlightenment ideals with widespread political participation. That participation was further expanded by land grants made to Continental and militia veterans. The French, Haitian, Latin American Revolutions were inspired in part by the American Revolution, as were others into the modern era.
- In their home states, returning veterans sought to expand the voting franchise to include all those who had served in the American Revolutionary War, and to embrace all those who enrolled in their county militias from ages 21 to 60. During the elections for delegates to state conventions to ratify the US Constitution in 1788, that goal was attained in Virginia for that one election only. Most states did not expand the franchise to militia members regardless of property holdings until after the War of 1812 and later at the rise of Jacksonian democracy.
- Returning veteran settlement included a variety of backgrounds. Enlisted men, several hundreds of whites and a few dozen free blacks, received land grants from Congress or their home states to settle on family farms on the western frontier, and thereby met the land requirement to vote. Germans who had fought for the British returned with their families to settle on the frontier, achieving citizenship within one year for their adopted states, before US citizenship. "Soft" Tories, the two-thirds of Loyalist militias who did not migrate to British colonies in Canada and the Caribbean, either made a home among their former neighbors, or migrated west to the western frontier.[b]
- Social legacy
- The Enlightenment reasoning to abolish slavery was widespread among Revolutionary war veterans. They had seen black troops perform well under fire both in state militias and in Continental Line regiments.[c] At the close of the war, Revolutionary officers North and South, supported freedom and land grants to all surviving black veterans, regardless of their previous condition of servitude, but they were outvoted in their state legislatures. Large numbers of enlisted veterans south and west of the Tidewater joined Methodist and Baptist religious sects that were racially integrated, admitting both free black and enslaved membership.
- Revolutionary veterans made up majorities in the state legislatures that took actions to free slaves. By 1804, all the northern states had soon passed laws outlawing slavery. George Washington, personally manumitted his slaves and did so through his will without an Act of Assembly. Veteran majorities in both House and Senate passed the Act Prohibiting Importation of Slaves went into effect in 1808. John Marshall helped found the American Colonization Society, a manumission society to establish an African nation of self-governing freed slaves.
- Washington's Continental officer corps, including Naval officers and French officers with Congressional commissions, founded a brotherhood of the Society of the Cincinnati to care for their fellow officer's widows, orphans, and one another in old age.[d] In the early 1800s, state chapters with strong republican principles such as Virginia, self-dissolved the hereditary organization as the last widow of the Revolution's serving officers died. Later these chapters were reconstituted to memorialize their ancestors' service to the republic, and generally promote American patriotism.
- Memory legacy
- - a balanced discussion of mainstream historiography
- ^ Note
- ^
including newly opened territory to become founding families in states such as Vermont in 1791, Kentucky in 1792, Tennessee in 1796, and Ohio in 1803. - ^ The black Rhode Island regiment on Washington's left flank at Monmouth famously not only turned back a British bayonet charge for the first time by Americans, but then counter-charged with a bayonet attack of their own. As many as twenty-percent of the Northern Continental Line regiments were free blacks.
- ^ Despite fears of Anti-Federalists such as Patrick Henry of Virginia militia service in the Revolutionary War, George Washington did not orchestrate Cincinnati membership as a cabal to impose a national government on the United States. While he did encourage his former officers such as John Marshall to run for delegate in the Virginia Ratification Convention, Society members who were elected from their home counties split 50-50 over the final vote to ratify.
- ^ Ferling 2007, p. 330
- Respectfully - TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 14:09, 23 November 2020 (UTC);
- - updated.TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 23:58, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
Comments:
proposal discussion
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@TheVirginiaHistorian, this is a great idea. I fully support this. Dswitz10734 (talk) 16:55, 24 November 2020 (UTC) |
A welcome for Robin copyedits for encyclopedic summary style
- In view of the good copyediting by Robinvp11 – in a summary encyclopedic style – first of my contributions on African American participation here, then just now, his two most recent in Early engagements here, and here, I look forward to his further contributions as a writer.
- I still maintain a substantial disagreement against his imposition of off-topic European diplomatic history into this American military history, and his method of imposing it, undiscussed and unsourced. His POV is contrary to mainstream interpretation of the ARW in the unimpeached gold standard for scholarly reference in the English language, the Encyclopedia Britannica.
- - The American Revolutionary War was an insurrection within the British Empire between British subjects over (a) colonial political independence and (b) their constitutional revolution from monarchy to republic --- for an American self-governing people separate from those in Britain. - TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 20:08, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
Issues of mass deletions, resolved
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Mass deletions, undiscussed, proving disruptive(This is a reply to a ping that was made here.) @Tenryuu: — Yes, some of the wholesale deletions also resulted in citation errors. This occurs when a defined 'ref=' statement is removed. The first time a mass deletion occurred, with no discussion, two editors took exception, here on the Talk page. Then just recently, yet another mass deletion occurred by the same editor, again with no discussion, and with one coverall statement about General Gage in edit history, which hardly explains the bulk of the text removal. Perhaps we should revert the article back to here (Nov.25), just before the last mass deletion, and take it from there, with all editors, including yourself, cooporating and dealing with individual issues one at a time, as we were doing. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 04:05, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
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- Tenryuu, As Robin has acknowledged at the section I posted on his Talk, “Happy to stop,” he in wp:good faith did not understand the global copyedit sequencing workflow you were attempting to accomplish, I hope you can reconsider, and take one section under review at a time.
- - Perhaps using this format going forward, you might initiate a new copyedit review, leap-frogging forward to the ‘Aftermath’ then ‘Commemorations in the Revolutionary War’ sections, using the Under Construction template parameters for each section as you tackle it. And Gwillhickers and I can "worry that bone" [meaning #2] back at the 'Strategy and commanders' section? - TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 17:41, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
- Once again, thank you for your words of conciliation and excellent efforts at diplomacy. Glad to see this didn't escalate into a Talk page battle and edit war. — Humbly we go forth. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 21:29, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
Primary editors (Gwillhickers—TheVirginiaHistorian—Robinvp11), I can start looking at the three aforementioned sections ("Revolution as civil war", "Aftermath", and "Commemorations of the Revolutionary War") tomorrow, so long as everyone is okay with the current text and its future revisions. Please try and discuss other contentious prose in the relevant sections elsewhere here on the talk page. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 03:19, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks. Onward and upward! - TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 06:30, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
- The edits are not intended to be disruptive and I've tried to avoid major sections, so apologies if that has been the case. This is a big article and it doesn't need to be.
- There are three reasons for this; (a) a lot of repetition (I take the point you can't always say "Its been covered elsewhere" but how many times do we need to mention Dunmore's proclamation, Saratoga etc) (b) its over-written (eg often using 10 words where five will do) and (c) I've mentioned this before but I've never seen so many footnotes in one article; they look like attempts to do an end run around the size parameters by adopting Enron accounting techniques :). That causes two problems; it removes the need to be concise and often leaves out stuff that should be in the article.
INSERT: see Gwillickers * thread below - TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 21:10, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
- A personal 'aaarrrrgh;" :) I know the Declaration of Independence refers to George III (because the drafters wanted to avoid a fight with Parliament) but Britain fought a series of bloody civil wars to establish the fact Parliament made decisions, not the king (one of my own ancestors signed the death warrant for Charles I). So every time I see 'George III decided/negotiated etc' it shows a lack of understanding of the British political system and how decisions were made; he was a Tory country gentleman of limited intelligence who ultimately did what he was told by his ministers - the only exception to that was Catholic emancipation. Robinvp11 (talk) 12:17, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
Robin — If the King functioned little more than as a figurehead, then we should say so if the sources say so. However, at least according to Thomas Paine's Common Sense, a very influential work in both the American and French revolutions, which criticized both Parliament and the King, the King was indeed allowed a good measure of authority: The passage in question reads:
- "But as the same constitution which gives the Commons a power to check
the King by withholding the supplies, gives afterwards the King a power to check
the Commons, by empowering him to reject their other bills; ..."
- "But as the same constitution which gives the Commons a power to check
Having only a basic knowledge of the relationship between the King and Parliament during the ARW, I will leave such matters to those more familiar with the topic. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 21:18, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
- Gwillhickers, the last time a monarch withheld royal assent was in the case of the Scottish Militia Bill of 1708, upon the request of her ministers, i.e., the cabinet. There is an ongoing debate over whether the Queen has the right to veto legislation at the request of the PM, but she has no right to do so on her own initiative. Cabinet also has the power to give royal assent if the king is unwilling or unable to do so or for any reason whatsoever. TFD (talk) 07:21, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
George III and his ARW role
- As I chipped in somewhere in the discussion above, it seems that even George himself saw his role as that of agent for the authority of Parliament ("fighting the battle of the Legislature" as he wrote).
- He may have periodically expressed strong opinions, but these shouldn't be taken as evidence of a strong influence on policy.Svejk74 (talk) 19:49, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
- Wikipedia editorial policy and process in this example can be treated in four steps.
- Review the literature.
- (a) English gold standard scholarly reference Encyclopedia Britannica. The [George III George III - North ministry article is written by British scholar John Steven Watson, The Reign of George III: 1760-1815 (1960). (1) By 1770, George III was "still as obstinate as ever and still felt an intense duty to guide the country" […] he "used executive power for winning elections […]" (2) "So the king prolonged the war, possibly by two years, by his desperate determination." And, “North wearily [publicly] repeated his wish to resign, thus appearing to be a mere puppet of George III. " George III insisted, and so North stayed on until the week of a “no confidence” vote in Commons, when the King relented but still fuming, “I’ll never forget this [personal betrayal].” (3) At the time people believed that corruption alone supported an administration that was equally incapable of waging war or ending it. This supposed increase in corruption was laid directly at the king’s door. (4) At backing William Pitt the Younger in the general election March 1784, the country, moved by reform sentiment," as well as by treasury influence, overwhelmingly endorsed the king’s action.” George III subsequently withdrew from direct intervention in Parliament, allowing Pitt’s administration over His Majesty's objections, after the American Revolutionary War.
- (b) The Hibbert biography sourced in the ARW article, linked and quoted above here at Talk.
- (c) H.T. Dickenson in Britain and the American Revolution (Routledge 2016 [2014) writes, “A visceral hostility to ‘unnatural rebellion’ seems to have gripped some British politicians, together with a belief that the Americans – and their British friends and abettors – were engaged in a deeply laid plot to destroy the balance of the constitution by undermining executive authority and creating an unchecked ‘democracy’.
- Note: From a perspective of British legal history, (Maitland et alia) the Americans looked to their English Stuart King colonial charters that guaranteed them the "rights of Englishmen as though they lived in England". George III, tutored by Bute, believed the colonies akin to his German family provinces in Bruswick. Legally the colonials were seen by George III as living on his personal domain, like peasants on his lands in Sherwood Forest, and he could change the boundaries of their cottages and fields at will; residents there were to him as his HRE serfs, and he could also change their local constitutions at will. Englishmen on both sides of the Atlantic took objection.
- (d) The Anglican Bishop, Stephen Conway contributed a chapter in Dickinson (ed) Britain and the American Revolution gives 1 view of 9 scholars who do not have a George III monograph of their own: Bishop Conway writes: George III was blamed "[...] with the loss of the American colonies, even though the constitutional clashes [...] centred on the claims of the British parliament not those of the crown. [...] Once the conflict began the king [...] was consulted on the conduct of the war and [...] he gave his opinions freely [...]; but he was not the key decision-maker [...]". To uphold the editorial theme here, that "There no great men in history", Svejk74 posts above at Talk: "George certainly played a role, but it shouldn't be overemphasised at the expense of, for example, the cabinet generally." - TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 21:10, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
- A few points. First, splitting my comment above off under its own heading in isolation from the comment I was responding to makes it near-impossible for me to follow the thread of the conversation, let alone anyone else.
- Second - you state "The Anglican Bishop, Stephen Conway contributed a chapter in Dickinson (ed) Britain and the American Revolution gives 1 view of 9 scholars who do not have a George III monograph of their own". Conway is a history professor at UCL, not a bishop, and an 18th century specialist with an interest in George III's reign. Not sure what the "Bishop Conway" and "no George III monograph" stuff is about other than an attempt to deprecate my source? It's certainly more representative of modern scholarship than Watson's 70 year old text.
- Thirdly this is not about a 'theme' of "There are no great men in history" but about the fact that George's power was limited by the Parliamentary system, and that neither descriptions of his personal opinion or of the popular perception of his role particularly alter that.Svejk74 (talk) 07:53, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Svejk74: Apologies to Dr. Conway. -- The FIRST thread was on disruptive deletions. Your SECOND thread deserved the new section: George III and his ARW role. It goes well for your reputation as a wp:editor that it was
near-impossible for me to follow the thread
connecting the two, as there is objectively no connection there between (a) disruptive edits in the article, and (b) your stated interest in George III and his political role in the ARW. - Our colleague editors who clutch to the abstract notion that, "There can be no 'great men or women' in history.", are also fond of alluding to a secret "reality" in the events of history that are "facts" existing apart from the actual participants, and further, as Svejk74 so eloquently puts it,
"neither descriptions of his [the participant's] personal opinion or of the popular perception of his role [as seen by event witnesses]
, i.e., evidence from among those living and acting at the time, canparticularly alter that
. That is, there is nothing from the past that can be brought into a discussion of the secret no-great-men-or-women "facts". That preconceived editorial "reality" can never be "particularly altered" by any well-sourced accounts to the contrary from history. - Here Svejk74 promotes an unsourced POV with the novel assertion that George III was figurehead in 1782-1783 as he was "limited by the Parliamentary system". But that system, before the King's voluntary withdrawal from active intervention and control of Parliament (a) allowed George III to appoint Lords to manufacture the King's majority there, (b) used rotten boroughs that never seated a member of his Loyal Opposition, and (c) his "Treasury" paid for seats in Commons. George III relented actively pressuring Parliament following his thumb-on-the-scales to seat Rockingham PM (Dr. John Steven Watson in Britannica).
- - Those familiar with British constitutional history and government are aware of significant differences among Crown and Parliament and their shared powers from first, William and Mary to George III, transition at George III, and second, George III to Elizabeth II, of whom you speak as a figurehead. No
"18th century specialist with an interest in George III's reign"
fails to note the difference, a Dr. Conway does not say there was no change in the British constitution over that 260-year time span, you have no quote from him to say so. Svejk74 just made up their own POV and misrepresented poor Dr. Conway who is without a prominent author's page online at a browser search. - TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 19:41, 29 November 2020 (UTC)- I'm perfectly familiar with British (and Irish) constitutional history, thanks, especially the period between 1640 and 1800 or so.
- It's important to understand the ways in which the historiography of the reign of George III has changed substantially over the years. 19th century 'Whig' historians presented him as a meddler who made a concerted effort to reassert the power of the Crown, partly by comparing him with his supposedly 'inactive' predecessor George II. This 'averted slide towards tyranny' narrative has long been superseded. Namier, writing in the early 20th century, demonstrated that most of the assumptions about party divisions made by 19th century historians were wrong; the situation was far more fluid and parliamentarians far more independent-minded. It's also since been argued that George II was not the indolent figure he was once presented as, and that the balance of power between Crown and Parliament was in fact relatively consistent throughout the period. We can now understand that 19th century historiography is best regarded as a product of its time.
- I fail to see how I am misrepresenting the views of (Professor, not Dr) Conway when I quoted directly from him as follows: "In popular mythology, George III is inextricably linked with the loss of the American colonies, even though the constitutional clashes [...] centred on the claims of the British parliament not those of the crown. [...] Once the conflict began the king's role was likewise less significant than has been assumed. He was consulted on the conduct of the war and asked to approve plans and proposals; he gave his opinions freely and at times was certainly influential; but he was not the key decision-maker. No single person filled that position". That seems to me completely clear. I did not say George was a "figurehead" (that's your term); I said that his power was limited. He is best regarded as one of a set of competing influences on the war's conduct - this is not a "novel POV". We were asked, on the Military History pages, to contribute to the discussion on ongoing edits and this is precisely why I think @Robinvp11:'s recent edits are a big improvement: they remove overemphasis of the monarch's active role in the conflict.Svejk74 (talk) 09:03, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Svejk74: Apologies to Dr. Conway. -- The FIRST thread was on disruptive deletions. Your SECOND thread deserved the new section: George III and his ARW role. It goes well for your reputation as a wp:editor that it was
- Re the discussion above by TheVirginiaHistorian, the point of the 'great man' stuff escapes me, but this is not how the late 18th century British constitutional system worked. The suggestion "George III was a figurehead in 1782-1783" and "limited by the Parliamentary system" simply reflects mainstream modern historiography.
- As the first English-born Hanoverian, George was more Tory than the Tories, (North was the first nominally Tory PM since 1710, with the odd exception) and was routinely attacked by the Whigs for allegedly favouring them (hence the criticism he receives from 19th century Whig historians like Macaulay).
- George III did not own any boroughs, rotten or otherwise; individual aristocrats did (the History of Parliament provides details of exactly who owned which if you're curious). The idea he could create peers when needed is simply wrong, as is the suggestion he controlled the Whig-dominated Lords;
- Like any 18th century aristocrat, he had powers of patronage but the vast bulk were vested in the Treasury, which was controlled by the government. In fact, on becoming king he signed over the Crown Estates in return for a civil list annuity granted by Parliament, while MPs were specifically banned from holding 'offices of profit under the Crown'; it survives today in the legal fiction known as taking the Chiltern Hundreds.
- If you lost a motion of confidence (as North did), the government resigned and a new one was created, which then controlled these powers (this system survives in the modern US, where the number of political and/or administrative positions filled by the President are way, way, way more substantial than those available to Boris Johnson).
- Like other Tories, he didn't want to be responsible for losing what was seen by both colonists and Parliament as an integral part of Britain; once France and Spain entered the war, it also became a matter of national prestige. As king, he felt it more but his influence was largely confined to saying "No". He did not direct government policy and when North lost a majority in the House, he resigned regardless of what George wanted. That's the point. Robinvp11 (talk) 14:51, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
- I would note also that the language of the Declaration of Independence and other documents seems to view George III as very powerful. But it has to be read in context of the constitutional theory that the Founding Fathers held, for example as expressed by John Adams in Novanglus. The American colonies were founded in the early 1600s when the king was extremely powerful. Following the 1688 Revolution, most of his powers were transferred to the English Parliament. However, the colonial view was that the English Parliament had no jurisdiction in America, instead it was colonial legislatures. By "comb[ing] with others," i.e., the English parliament, the king had broken his personal obligation to his American subjects. TFD (talk) 16:12, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
- @The Four Deuces: Thank you for the reasonable and well grounded response. I would add that the Stuart charters meant to attract large scale immigration to overmatch Spanish and French colonization in the New World, well that was the aspiration. That became the bedrock of colonial resistance to George III re-conception of British North America. The N.Am. colonists believed that they and their posterity would have "all the rights of Englishmen as though they still resided there." I do not intend any of the following to be directed towards you. - TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 16:45, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
- I would note also that the language of the Declaration of Independence and other documents seems to view George III as very powerful. But it has to be read in context of the constitutional theory that the Founding Fathers held, for example as expressed by John Adams in Novanglus. The American colonies were founded in the early 1600s when the king was extremely powerful. Following the 1688 Revolution, most of his powers were transferred to the English Parliament. However, the colonial view was that the English Parliament had no jurisdiction in America, instead it was colonial legislatures. By "comb[ing] with others," i.e., the English parliament, the king had broken his personal obligation to his American subjects. TFD (talk) 16:12, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
- How does this address the points made at some length by myself and Svejk74? No one's disputed the Stuart Charters or how the colonials viewed themselves, this is a discussion about the role of George III. There are still numerous examples of this confusion in the article - I'm happy to correct them, but its hard to tell from this if you disagree. Robinvp11 (talk) 18:53, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
- My point was that the language of the Founding Fathers made it appear that George III was an absolute monarch. ("The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States.") That view has entered the collective memory. In reality, George was constrained by Parliament and we need to accurately reflect his actual role in the ARW. TFD (talk) 22:45, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
- How does this address the points made at some length by myself and Svejk74? No one's disputed the Stuart Charters or how the colonials viewed themselves, this is a discussion about the role of George III. There are still numerous examples of this confusion in the article - I'm happy to correct them, but its hard to tell from this if you disagree. Robinvp11 (talk) 18:53, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
It would seem we can all agree that both the King and Parliament had a given measure of authority. Given the biased historiography of both Whig and Tory minded historians, debating the rather subjective idea of 'how much' authority King George wielded has proven to be a never ending debate, as has been demonstrated in this discussion. It would be best to simply outline the statements in question, here in Talk, currently found in the article, and address them on a per statement basis. Remembering that this is the 'war' article, we are not going to be covering the relationship and roles of the King and Parliament that much to begin with. I think we can also agree that the King and Parliament shared authority, and we should leave it at that. Statements involving the King and Parliament should be confined to terms involving established facts. If the sources in question are somewhat conflicting, we simply say so in neutral terms. It was my impression that, for most, if not all of, the war, both the King and Parliament were on the same page up until the surrender at Yorktown, where the Parliament became somewhat divided as to whether the war should be continued. Can anyone outline the actual statements in question that need attention in that regard here in Talk? -- Gwillhickers (talk) 23:07, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Gwillhickers: Robinvp11 and Svejk74 are manifestly unfamiliar with British-American constitutional and military history in the last half of the 1700s. One says (a) no reputable scholar claims George III was a “figurehead” in making military decisions in the ARW (my word alone it is said, for monarchs who defer to their minister's and their cabinets in all things but ribbon color and wig perfume), while the other maintains (b) as to making military decisions in the ARWm, "
'George III was a figurehead in 1782-1783' and 'limited by the Parliamentary system' simply reflects mainstream modern historiography
". - - They both ignore my posts, direct quotes and RS links provided for editor inspection. There is no counter to my posts, only both say the referenced RS are not so, on their own wp:editor authority alone, without any scholarly authority to back them up. - We do have the sidebar about the one as-yet-to-be-confirmed "professor" without a doctorate - hmmmmmm, by 1980 Virginia community colleges did not allow instructors to be even temporary adjuncts without a doctorate from an accredited university, never mind their more stringent qualifications for tenured professors. We have a 'smell test' yet to pass here.
- But I’ve sourced from THE mainstream scholarly reference in the English language for the 20th and 21st century, Encyclopedia Britannica. --- In this case, for Britannica’s article on George III here, the historiography is originally authored by American scholar updated on 31 May 2020. It is directly quoted for editors here in this thread above. Britannica’s current (31 May 2020) scholarly authority is not overturned on a Talk thread by blind assertion using wp:bully attacks.
- My second reliable source views the American Patriots as undermining EXECUTIVE (Crown) constitutional authority --- the directly quoted and linked from British scholar Harry Thomas Dickenson in his 2016 edition of Britain in the American Revolution. These RS and their international standing in English-language 21st century scholarship by both an American (updated 2020) and a Briton (2016) is not yet impeached on this page. They are not likely to be.
- The article has not had any "
overemphasis of the monarch’s active role
", only characterizations that are carefully drawn from reliable sources, now directly quoted and linked for editor inspection. Wikipedia asks of its editors on the Military History pages to enter into discussion with reliable sources and goodwill, not article disruption with coordinated empty denials and rhetorical rabbit trails on its Talk. - TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 00:39, 1 December 2020 (UTC)- I'm going to try and be as concise as possible here, for the benefit of everyone involved. You start by saying we've not addressed the quotes provided by you, so I'll deal with that first.
- In support of your argument for George III's significance, you've cited a quote "A visceral hostility to ‘unnatural rebellion’ seems to have gripped some British politicians, together with a belief that the Americans – and their British friends and abettors – were engaged in a deeply laid plot to destroy the balance of the constitution by undermining executive authority and creating an unchecked ‘democracy". Firstly, this says nothing about George; it's talking about the attitude of "some British politicians" to what they saw as an attempt to undermine the government. If you actually read Britain and the American Revolution, the book this is taken from, you'll also note this is not written by Dickinson (the editor) but from a chapter by Stephen Conway, the academic who elsewhere in the same book writes "Once the conflict began the king's role was likewise less significant than has been assumed".
- You also offer a series of quotes from the Britannica entry on North's ministry. Several of these say little about George's actual influence, only that he, for example "still felt an intense duty to guide the country", or that he was blamed for a "supposed increase in corruption". We know George had strong opinions and was not afraid to air them; the issue is that whatever his opinions, sense of duty, or efforts to interfere with government, his capacity to actually do so was limited.
- To back this up I've offered, originally in this edit, what I thought was a reasonably balanced modern perspective given by Stephen Conway (in Britain and the American Revolution). I'm not sure why or how I've become sidetracked into a question of his academic credentials, but here he is: his major publications may be of interest.
- For the avoidance of doubt, here's what he writes, again: "In popular mythology, George III is inextricably linked with the loss of the American colonies, even though the constitutional clashes [...] centred on the claims of the British parliament not those of the crown. [...] Once the conflict began the king's role was likewise less significant than has been assumed. He was consulted on the conduct of the war and asked to approve plans and proposals; he gave his opinions freely and at times was certainly influential; but he was not the key decision-maker. No single person filled that position". I think this is a crystal clear statement, from a reliable source, of how power was exercised.Svejk74 (talk) 10:04, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you for dropping the rhetorical device of denying my 21st century sourcing as 19th century Whig propaganda. We may be getting somewhere to collegially arrive at consensus. Let's explore Introduction, p.9
(1) "The King's role was less than has been assumed", is of course Dr. Conway's reference -- why would you contentiously contradict me by saying Conway, the PhD, is not qualified to the title, "Doctor" knowing full well otherwise? ah! it must be like my Brit TV detective mystery binge watching, "playing at silly buggers" with me. It was silly of me to take offense. LOL sorry, apologies -- start over.- (1) Perhaps, "The King's role was less than has been assumed", is Conway's reference to those who would make George III out to be a Frederick the Great -- Straw man alert -- but George III is NOT put forward as an example of the European Enlightenment "Absolute Monarch" anywhere in the article. The article has not had any "overemphasis of the monarch’s active role", only characterizations that are carefully drawn from reliable sources, now directly quoted and linked for editor inspection.
- (2) The reference may also be to the passage on page 347, Britain in the late 1700s, was like that of 1793-1815, "[...] a weak British state, dependent upon a great number and variety of interests beyond its control, even for the organization of national defense." --- This comparative weakness in Britain during "the last war of the ancien regime" as Conway quoted elsewhere, is a characterization of the state compared to that of the nation-state developed in WWI. It is NOT Conway's characterization of the role that George III played in military affairs within that regime during the ARW. - TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 18:05, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
@TheVirginiaHistorian: We may be getting somewhere to collegially arrive at consensus. Bollocks to that, you need to start by apologising for a series of snide and condescending comments, culminating in this completely gratuitous and unfounded insult "Robinvp11 and Svejk74 are manifestly unfamiliar with British-American constitutional and military history in the last half of the 1700s." Let me be honest in return.
I don't make a big deal of it but I have a degree and a PHD in history, specialising in late 18th century/early 19th century Europe. One of my tutors was John Ramsden, whose focus was the development of party in post 1760-Britain; I also studied the American War in the army, as my regiment was a direct successor of the Royal Americans (the British treasure their defeats more than their victories). So yeah, I know what I'm talking about. If you care. Which I don't. What about you?
Its not always easy to answer your points because (like much of the article) the prose is often so dense and convoluted its hard to figure what they are. I still have zero idea what the 'great man' stuff is about, but I answered each of the others in specific detail. Which you've ignored, then complained they haven't been answered - which seems like a 'heads I win, tails you lose' approach.
You have fundamentally confused the nature of executive power in the colonies (which was vested in the Crown, ruling through governors) and who exercised it - not George III but the Crown, as expressed by the British government. Why that is so hard to understand escapes me.
Robinvp11 (talk) 18:47, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- First of all, I freely and gratefully acknowledge your superior writing skills. You and other visiting editors may see that by the mounting count of my public 'Thanks' to you for copyedits at this article of my contributions and the contributions of others.
- Second, No, you cannot 'put me in my place' by wp:bully here, bragging that (1) your ancestors were important and so by inference more important by bloodline pedigree than mine, or (2) that in some metaphorical way, your sheepskin diploma is bigger than mine. Now that is bollocks (Brit.). - Yes, we of English descent are so inbred that we are all directly descent of both the beheaded King and his beheading members of Parliament. Gotcha, we can all subscribe to ancestry .com and get a mail order English crest of knighthood with our names on it.
- Third, I recall some months ago that you claimed a great personal authority on these pages, without responding at the time to my request for sources, because you say, you have been paid for by an unnamed think tank on the subject. But I note that it cannot be referenced here at Wikipedia as a reliable source (fishy smell test).
- - I do recall seeing a purported 'Think Tank' cited as the "West Point Institute" in an ARW-related article supporting the same-old thesis, the "ARW spread worldwide". Somehow without human intervention, nor without any trace of document evidence to make the connection, the American (not Dutch) Patriot rebellion for colony national independence in a republic "spread" worldwide to found the Second British Empire. Every scholarly source referenced by them said, on inspection, that the Bourbon War against Britain was at an overlapping time with Britain's "American war" but the others' war on Britain was not an occasion for spread of rebellion to establish "colony national independence in a republic" within either the French empire, or the Spanish empire.
- - On investigation of the "West Point Institute", I could find no such 'Think Tank' organization associated with the USMA. In fact the website claimed that it was a group of eight Russian and Ukrainian soldiers at a convention. The website for the "West Point Institute" had a webmaster link to a Facebook account "West Point Institute" showing the image of a handsome bright-looking young man standing alone on a medieval-looking street (perhaps not an amusement park), but nothing much more (fishy smell test). You may be good looking, I'll say that for you.
- Fourth, it is far from snide or condescending to observe that editors who are self-described Euros on Wikipedia pages are generally unfamiliar with the history available in Britannica about the ARW, the mainstream scholarly reference in the English language. Where to begin. I published a a link to the Britannica article on George III for editor inspection, and then an editor misrepresents it here as
"the Britannica entry on North's ministry"
. While that is similar to Robinvp11 substituting "Lord North" for "George III" three times in disruptive article edits that were not supported in on the cited pages, in this case at Talk, it is too obviously wrong to be deceitful -- it is just sloppy thinking and intellectually lazy. No one who read history under the tutelage of John Ramsden could be guilty of such a thing, even in his sunset years. I fear that there may be occasionally a sock-puppet that impersonates our gifted writer-contributor Robinvp11. - - to be continued.
- - TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 22:28, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- I'll just point out that your own link to that particular Britannica section called it "George III - North's ministry". What's the problem here?
- As for "self-described Euros on Wikipedia pages [who] are generally unfamiliar with the history available in Britannica about the ARW"; well, first, that's not actually what you wrote; and secondly, I'm sorry but familiarity with Britannica isn't a mark of anything. Leaving aside the "self-described Euros" bit for the moment, we're certainly familiar with a lot of the best contemporary scholarship on the period (including that of a UK academic who has written extensively on the ARW and George III, yet who you managed to confuse with the Bishop of Ely). The ARW isn't one of my favourite subjects, but as it happens it has a strong bearing on the lead up to the 1798 rebellion in Ireland, which is, so I make sure I understand the issues involved.
- Incidentally it's unfortunate that you regard Robinvp11's stating his academic credentials as 'bullying': it's not, and secondly if you question people's level of knowledge, as you've done repeatedly, you have to expect them to defend it. Svejk74 (talk) 11:03, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
George III and his ARW role - continued
Yes, if there are any statements that are deemed to be over-emphasizing the King's role, we need to see them outlined, here in Talk. Otherwise we'll forever be absorbed in another lengthy source debate, which would be uncalled for since the article only mentions the King briefly, esp in relation to Parliament. The debate is somewhat out of proportion to the amount of coverage our article lends to these entities.
Below are the five statements in the narrative, with citations, that cover King George in terms of the war effort and its aftermath. If there are any issues here they need to be addressed specifically.
- Even after fighting began, Congress launched an Olive Branch Petition in an attempt to prevent war. King George III rejected the offer as insincere." <Ferling, 2007, pp. 38, 113>
- "Tories stiffened their resistance to compromise, and George III himself began micromanaging the war effort." <Ferling 2003, pp. 123–124> <O'Shaughnessy, 2013, p. 186>
- "In London, news of the victorious Long Island campaign was well received with festivities held in the capital. Public support reached a peak,<McCullough 2005, p. 195> and King George III awarded the Order of the Bath to Howe." <Ketchum 2014, pp. 191, 269>
- "Meanwhile, George III had given up on subduing America while Britain had a European war to fight." <Ferling 2007, p. 294>
- "Despite these developments, George III was determined to never recognize American independence and to indefinitely wage war on the American colonies indefinitely until they pleaded to return as his subjects." <Trevelyan 1912a, pp. 4–5>
- "Despite these developments, George III was determined to never recognize American independence and to indefinitely wage war on the American colonies indefinitely until they pleaded to return as his subjects." <Trevelyan 1912a, pp. 4–5>
If any of these statements are inaccurate or completely in error, we need to see the sources that supports that idea in no uncertain terms. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 01:31, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- The first mention of George III is in the lead: "King George III promised American independence and Anglo–American talks began. The preliminary articles of peace signed in November, and in December 1782, George III spoke from the British throne for US independence, trade, and peace between the two countries." I would replace George III with the British government. The King was forced to appoint a pro-peace ministry and accept their "advice." (Although it is called advice, the sovereign is obligated to follow it.) TFD (talk) 01:48, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- It was King George who made the promise, but I think we can assume he had the backing of the Parliament. It was the King who was addressed in Jefferson's Declaration of Independence, and like the President of the U.S. would, he spoke on behalf of his country. It would seem King George was more than just an empty suit with a crown on his head and had an appreciable amount of influence with the Parliament. For purposes of the lede, it seems mention of the King is most appropriate. I've no issues, however, with clarifying any other statements in the body of the text, where warranted. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 02:36, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- In the UK and other Commonwealth realms such as Canada and Australia and their provinces and states, the Queen or her representative reads a speech from the throne every year written by the PM, explaining the government's agenda, and she or her representatives approve all legislation, issue all executive orders and declare war. Every government promise is made in the name of the Queen. Do you think that the queen personally develops government policies in all those places? Is it just a coincidence that when government changes hands, so does the policy that Her Majesty follows? TFD (talk) 03:58, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- It was King George who made the promise, but I think we can assume he had the backing of the Parliament. It was the King who was addressed in Jefferson's Declaration of Independence, and like the President of the U.S. would, he spoke on behalf of his country. It would seem King George was more than just an empty suit with a crown on his head and had an appreciable amount of influence with the Parliament. For purposes of the lede, it seems mention of the King is most appropriate. I've no issues, however, with clarifying any other statements in the body of the text, where warranted. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 02:36, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- The source for the sentence beginning "Even after fighting began" merely says that the king refused to read the petition. Adams wrote, "My hopes are that Ministry will be afraid of negotiation as well as we and therefore refuse it." Notice he was referring to the British government rather than the king. They would decide what response if any would be made. TFD (talk) 04:05, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- TFD again, the second post is a reasonable on your part, but it is not a summary statement of the King's overall military role in the ARW 1775-1783. It is only his tactical comment on a narrow political maneuver in John Adams' prayerful assessment of one of the several other-than-George III "levers" of government.
- That much is of course conceded. But that ancillary consideration is not the overall assessment of the King's power to direct a British military effort to retain the rebelling colonies, as sourced. If the King did not respond and reconcile --- as was done at the First Rockingham Administration withdrawing the Stamp Act --- then the casus belli is removed for widespread Atlantic seaboard colonial rebellion, constitutional revolution, and national independence in a republic -- John Adams's personal goal, as a "great figure of history".
- A Ministry frozen in place into George III's stubborn policy of denial could possibly result in the conditions for a spread of military confrontation against Royal Governors outside of New England. (For another take on a related political process, reference Lenin and the Reds trying to gain support outside center-metropolis cities. Were the Czar to have had actually learned and spoken in the Russian language to the surrounding population ... better for the Revolution that the monarch be stubbornly in control, without a clue from his Ministers.)
- Unfortunately, the first post above is another allusion to the 21st century British constitution of Queen Elizabeth II. As such it is not applicable to the ARW period of British-American colonial relations, an anachronism, and bad history. - TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 08:43, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- Sorry, the Stamp Act was repealed by Parliament in a vote of 276-168. The legislation was originated by Rockingham not by the king. It received royal assent as did every other law passed by parliament during George's 60 year reign. The king had no power to withhold royal assent without the "advice" of cabinet. Cabinet had the power to provide royal assent if the king was unable or unwilling to do so in person, which actually did happen during his illnesses. It's quite a stretch to compare the British constitution with pre-revolutionary Russia. TFD (talk) 16:44, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- The confusion seems to stem from the fact that the language used refers to the king. Laws are passed by the King-in-Parliament, executive orders are passed by the King-in-Council, judgments were made by the King on the advice of the Board of Trade, the king is the Commander-in-Chief. That is because historically the king had absolute power which later devolved to constitutional institutions such as parliament, the cabinet, and the supreme court following the revolution of 1688. While Adams did not recognize the authority of any of these institutions in America, he was aware that was how British government worked. TFD (talk) 16:53, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- That may well as may be, passing a law in Britain during the reign of George III was not by monarch fiat. That much can be stipulated. However, the sausage-making of parliamentary legislation is not related to the article's sourced characterization of George III significant role in military affairs during the ARW.
- LOL, my long-time friend. The comparison is meant to be this, and only in this limited way, as an ancillary, illustrative aside: Adams is to Monarch (clueless un-reforming ruler is good for Revolution) -- is as -- Lenin is to Tsar (clueless un-reforming ruler is good for Revolution). Hope you are in good health. - TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 18:05, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
While we don't have to know or explain the English constitution, we need to be precise when we attribute actions of its governments. We shouldn't say for example that George III enacted and repealed the Stamp Act when it was the imperial parliament. Or that he rejected the Olive Branch Petition if it was the cabinet. We wouldn't say today for example that Elizabeth II closed the Canadian border to the U.S., or took the UK out of the EU, or sent troops to Iraq. While George III exercised far more political influence than Elizabeth II, the view that he was an absolute monarch is a myth. TFD (talk) 18:23, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- "indefinitely wage war on the American colonies indefinitely" The sentence repeats "indefinetely" twice, when only one instance is needed. Dimadick (talk) 16:58, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- "Unfortunately, the first post above is another allusion to the 21st century British constitution of Queen Elizabeth II. As such it is not applicable to the ARW period of British-American colonial relations" The main article on George III mentions his role in a "constitutional struggle" in 1783, and the king directly causing the fall of the Fox–North coalition.:
- "Immediately after the House of Commons passed it [the India Bill], George authorised Lord Temple to inform the House of Lords that he would regard any peer who voted for the bill as his enemy. The bill was rejected by the Lords; three days later, the Portland ministry was dismissed, and William Pitt the Younger was appointed Prime Minister, with Temple as his Secretary of State. On 17 December 1783, Parliament voted in favour of a motion condemning the influence of the monarch in parliamentary voting as a "high crime" and Temple was forced to resign. Temple's departure destabilised the government, and three months later the government lost its majority and Parliament was dissolved; the subsequent election gave Pitt a firm mandate." Dimadick (talk) 17:13, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- Close, but no cigar. (1) This is another anachronistic, bad history allusion to British constitutional history after the ARW, and (2) it bears on post-war India Bill legislation procedure, not on the George III military role in the ARW as monarch.
- (3) As noted before, after the personal humiliation losing the American colonies, George III withdrew from his former extensive interference in Parliament while influencing the course of his "American war". As you note, not all at once but first from the House of Commons, then from the House of Lords. His miscalculation leading up the the 17 December 1783 motion in the House of Lords meant that he was used to, and confident in, his right to dictate outcomes in the House of Lords, even after the revolt of the "country gentlemen" in the House of Commons.
- Note: this event takes place over a year after the Paris signing of the Anglo-American Prelimary Peace in November 1782, granting the US independence, British withdrawal, territory west to the Mississippi with free navigation to the Gulf, and Newfoundland Banks fishing with beach curing rights. Congress ratified it unanimously on 15 April 1783, and it resolved a Proclamation "End of hostilities" between the US and Britain. - TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 18:25, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- Even after fighting began, Congress launched an Olive Branch Petition in an attempt to prevent war. King George III rejected the offer as insincere." <Ferling, 2006, pp. 38, 113>
- (1) Page numbers provided for Ferling do not tie in; (2) British intelligence intercepted a letter from Adams deriding the offer, which they took as indication of lack of sincerity; (3) the government had already prepared the Proclamation of Rebellion and did not present the petition to George. I have updated this accordingly.
- Re the 18th century British constitution; just because George read speeches does not mean he wrote them (this continues today when the Queen addresses Parliament and talks of 'my government.') He often wrote letters to North supporting a policy - that does not mean he made it. Yes, he had more power than in modern day Britain, and a greater willingness to exert it - but he did not make policy. In the end, he did what his government wanted. Robinvp11 (talk) 19:31, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- Actually, no one said George wrote the speech, but then, that begs the question -- who did? Your estimation here suggests that the king had no say, or authority, whatsoever. If that was the case what was his purpose? Did he not have the power to withhold bills? According to Paine: "But as the same constitution which gives the Commons a power to check the King by withholding the supplies, gives afterwards the King a power to check the Commons, by empowering him to reject their other bills; ..." It would seem this would afford him some leverage and say so regarding laws, acts and so forth. It seems it would be best to refer to the King and Parliament jointly when mentioning the various acts and laws put forth by Britain. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 23:13, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- As I mentioned above and provided a source, the PM wrote the King's speech. There is a dispute over whether the king may withhold bills at the request of cabinet (this was last done in 1708), while others claim no such discretion exists. There is no claim that the British sovereign can withhold royal assent, although this actually happened five times during the reign of William III. The cabinet has the ability to provide royal assent if the king is unable or unwilling to do so. Anyway, you should use more recent sources than Common Sense, which is not a reliable source. TFD (talk) 23:42, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- So the sources are conflicting. The question still remains -- what was the King's purpose during the ARW? Common sense is a primary source, and can be referred to as such. If that work is not a RS, than neither are the Washington papers, the Jefferson Papers, Ulysses S. Grant's memoirs, etc, all of which are routinely referred to by scholars. However, if an item in a primary source is contested, secondary sources should be consulted, which I have no problem with. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 00:50, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- None of them are reliable sources for our purposes. Historians use their papers, and other documents and try to determine what happened. Wikipedia editors use the findings of historians as sources. I believe that George III had his favorite ministers. But they were only able to carry out their policies with the support of the House of Commons. And sometimes the Commons switched their support to the opposition and they formed the government. But to the Founding Fathers, none of this mattered because the colonies were not represented in parliament. TFD (talk) 02:05, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- So the sources are conflicting. The question still remains -- what was the King's purpose during the ARW? Common sense is a primary source, and can be referred to as such. If that work is not a RS, than neither are the Washington papers, the Jefferson Papers, Ulysses S. Grant's memoirs, etc, all of which are routinely referred to by scholars. However, if an item in a primary source is contested, secondary sources should be consulted, which I have no problem with. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 00:50, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- As I mentioned above and provided a source, the PM wrote the King's speech. There is a dispute over whether the king may withhold bills at the request of cabinet (this was last done in 1708), while others claim no such discretion exists. There is no claim that the British sovereign can withhold royal assent, although this actually happened five times during the reign of William III. The cabinet has the ability to provide royal assent if the king is unable or unwilling to do so. Anyway, you should use more recent sources than Common Sense, which is not a reliable source. TFD (talk) 23:42, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- Primary sources are allowed and have been used in numerous GA, FA and other articles for years.
"Policy :' Unless restricted by another policy, primary sources that have been reputably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. "
No one has made an unusual interpretation based in Paine's source. I doubt Paine spun his contention out of thin air. Thus far, no one has been able to nail down the idea of what King George's actual function was. All I'm getting overall is that he was little more than an empty suit, which begs the question, why did Britain people even bother with the King? Meanwhile, I have outlined above a number of statements that mention the King. Only one of them has been addressed, while the Talk continues. Apparently it would be best if we contacted some credentialed and/or British editors and see what they have to say. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:57, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- In The Men who Lost America ] (Yale University Press 2013), Chapter 1 "'The Tyrant' George III", Andrew Jackson O'Shaughnessy explains the actual powers of George III and how they were deliberately misrepresented in revolutionary rhetoric. He discusses Paine in section III. Paine's genius was to transfer American anger from an abstract Parliament to a living person, even if that meant misrepresenting George's actual powers. But then, the first casualty of war is the truth. I don't understand anyway why the writings of the Founding Fathers should be put on a par with the Bible as divinely inspired and infallible. TFD (talk) 01:13, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
- Actually, no one said George wrote the speech, but then, that begs the question -- who did? Your estimation here suggests that the king had no say, or authority, whatsoever. If that was the case what was his purpose? Did he not have the power to withhold bills? According to Paine: "But as the same constitution which gives the Commons a power to check the King by withholding the supplies, gives afterwards the King a power to check the Commons, by empowering him to reject their other bills; ..." It would seem this would afford him some leverage and say so regarding laws, acts and so forth. It seems it would be best to refer to the King and Parliament jointly when mentioning the various acts and laws put forth by Britain. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 23:13, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- Re the 18th century British constitution; just because George read speeches does not mean he wrote them (this continues today when the Queen addresses Parliament and talks of 'my government.') He often wrote letters to North supporting a policy - that does not mean he made it. Yes, he had more power than in modern day Britain, and a greater willingness to exert it - but he did not make policy. In the end, he did what his government wanted. Robinvp11 (talk) 19:31, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
Continued
You mentioned how "O'Shaughnessy explains the actual powers of George III", but fell short of relating those powers to us here in Talk. Was Paine wrong when he said that the King had the "power to check the Commons, by empowering him to reject their other bills"? Did O'Shaughnessy say outright that this was a false assertion? It would seem your impression that the writings of the founding fathers has been "put on a par with the Bible as divinely inspired and infallible", a straw man accusation, is really your own. Do you harbor the same opinion in regards to the various British writings? All that has been discussed is whether the King had any power. You still seem to think the King was only a figurehead puppet and that he was above any criticism in terms of any ARW involvements. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 03:45, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
- O'Shaughnessy writes,
- "In Jefferson's mind, George III always would be the villain, the antagonist in America's primordial narrative, its myth of origin. For Jefferson, this was not propaganda but objective truth.
- "In reality, George III had less power than virtually any other monarch in Europe. During the seventeenth century, Britain had two revolutions of its own in which the supporters of Parliament successfully deposed Charles I and James II. After the execution of Charles I in 1649, Britain was a republic for eleven years, and following the fall of James II in 1688, Parliament negotiated a revolutionary settlement in what became known as the Glorious Revolution. It included a Bill of Rights (1689), which became the foundation of the British Constitution and ensured that the crown would henceforth govern through Parliament. The monarchy retained the power to appoint the government, but its choice was limited in practice to prime ministers who had support in Parliament. Although the system of elections was corrupt and the crown had considerable influence through patronage, the survival of the government was always dependent upon the support of independent members of the elected House of Commons. The British consequently regarded their political system as a bastion of freedom and liberty, in contrast to the absolute monarchies of Europe.
- O'Shaughnessy further says that John Adams regretted going along with this misinformation. Also, "The colonial opposition embraced conspiracy theories claiming the king had destroyed the traditional balance of government by gaining total control over Parliament to establish a tyranny in Britain and America."
- It was not the author's intention to provide a point by point rebuttal of all the misinformation in the Declaration of Independence and Common Sense. But he does show they are not reliable sources for British constitutional law. Bear in mind that the author is Vice President of the Thomas Jefferson Foundation at Monticello in Virginia, the Saunders Director of the Robert H. Smith International Center for Jefferson Studies at Monticello, and Professor of History at the University of Virginia. His book was published by the Yale University Press and won the 2014 George Washington Book Prize for best book on the founding era of the United States. That makes his book an expert source and reliable for the facts.
- As I pointed out, the cabinet had the power to give royal assent to bills if the king failed in his obligation and in fact did so during George's illnesses. Eventually they assigned his ceremonial roles to his son, who became Prince Regent. There is a distinction between the person who wears the crown and the corporation sole which is the symbol of authority. The Horseshoe Falls in Niagara is crown property for example, but that doesn't mean that if Queen Elizabeth is running short on cash she can sell it to a bottled water company. Or do you think she can?
- TFD (talk) 07:56, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
King George's role during the ARW
@TheVirginiaHistorian, Eastfarthingan, XavierGreen, and Lord Cornwallis: — There seems to be some disagreement as to the actual role of King George III before and during the American Revolutionary War. On the one hand it is claimed that he was little more than a figure head, with no joint authority shared with the Parliament and only made speeches, appearances and so forth - on the other, that he had the authority to hold back various bills put forth by the Parliament, and this sort of thing. Currently there are several statements in this article that mention the king, outlined above. Any light that could be shed on the matter would be greatly appreciated. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:57, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- The Britannica sourced role George III played in directing British military affairs in the ARW at George III: (1) By 1770, George III used his executive power to win elections. (2) The king prolonged the war, possibly by two years. - to be continued. - TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 20:04, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, that was my understanding, that the King had a significant measure of executive authority. For example, it is the prerogative of the monarch to summon or discontinue a session in Parliament. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 20:12, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- Just a cautionary note on editor contributions and sourcing, and a newfangled social media term of art, “firehose of falsehood” incorporating George Orwell’s Doublespeak. One disrupter on the article page and at Talk left citations in place in the article in three places misrepresenting two sources, substituting ”Lord North” for the sourced “George III” - a classic switch described in the novel.
- - A second account here made reference to Britain and the American Revolution, with a contributing editor Stephen Conway, who is himself a legitimate RS. Conway's meaning is manipulated for POV. There is indeed a Conway snippet: "Once the conflict began the king's role was likewise less significant than has been assumed". --- But nowhere has the ARW article ever made an overreaching exaggeration and "assumed" George III as a (straw man alert ->) absolute monarch akin to Frederick the Great on the basis of (straw man alert ->) a misinterpretation of the Declaration of Independence by wp:OR in a primary document.
- - Article characterizations of George III were carefully research and faithfully represented in the article in neutral encyclopedic language. George III did substantially effect major British military policy decisions during the ARW, as sourced in at least three British and American RS. But the commentary filling Talk with a wall of double-speak hinges on manipulating (a) an RS characterization of the 18th century ancient regime state in Britain, compared to (b) reactionary or authoritarian states of the post-Napoleonic or post-WWI Europe without a legislative check on autocratic authority.
- - The RS properly characterizes the British ancient regime as relatively “weak”, but the misleading posts turn the quote around for a POV to wrongly assign the “weak” characterization NOT to the RS 18th century “state” as compared to post-Napoleonic or post-WWI Europe, but to their own POV:
"weak George III"
who was indeed (True part of half-truth alert ->) the 18th century monarch ruling constitutionally as King-Lords-Commons during the British “American war”. - Additionally in acts of anachronism-bad-history, opposing posts allude to modern British constitutional monarchy or George III after the Anglo-American “End of Hostilities” was enacted unanimously in Congress 15 April 1783, ratifying the November 1782 Preliminary Peace (Library of Congress, American Memory). - TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 22:54, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for your in depth analysis and points of contention. It seems we have more than adequate sources to deal with the existing article statements relating to the King, if indeed they misrepresent his role. As I've pinged several other editors, we should wait for their input, and then deal with those statements, if they actually need tending to. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 04:40, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, that was my understanding, that the King had a significant measure of executive authority. For example, it is the prerogative of the monarch to summon or discontinue a session in Parliament. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 20:12, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
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A word about redundant statements
With the assumption everyone already knows, sometimes things need to be said regardless: Often times a statement of fact can be made in one section, while the same general statement can be made yet again in a different section, only in context with another topic. As a friendly reminder to all, when we encounter a statement that, by itself, seems redundant, we should make certain we are not removing any important context before we decide to remove it. No one is saying that this has occurred recently, btw – just a word of caution. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 21:42, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
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