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Undid revision 997296443 by StanProg (talk) hypocrisy
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:{{u|Gråbergs Gråa Sång}}, I'm glad someone did! I couldn't resist, it's too perfect. Those are both excellent and I had heard neither before, thanks so much! I was actually thinking of [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PyCr3lmbHw one of Johnny Cash's first records] when I saw that for Belshazzar it was getting late. [[User:GPinkerton|GPinkerton]] ([[User talk:GPinkerton#top|talk]]) 18:48, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
:{{u|Gråbergs Gråa Sång}}, I'm glad someone did! I couldn't resist, it's too perfect. Those are both excellent and I had heard neither before, thanks so much! I was actually thinking of [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PyCr3lmbHw one of Johnny Cash's first records] when I saw that for Belshazzar it was getting late. [[User:GPinkerton|GPinkerton]] ([[User talk:GPinkerton#top|talk]]) 18:48, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
::Nice! More at [[Cultural depictions of Belshazzar]]. [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 13:22, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
::Nice! More at [[Cultural depictions of Belshazzar]]. [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 13:22, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

== administrators noticeboard/kurds ==

GP, I think you need to stop. [[Special:Diff/997046884]]: {{xt|[[User:عمرو بن كلثوم]] is taken aback at GPinkerton's refutation of his claim that the phrase "Syrian Kurdistan" does not appear in the book (it does and is explained), and suddenly changes his mind on "Martin Dr Martin" the erstwhile worthy academic in respectable Paris, whose PhD-thesis-turned book was published by the University of Utrecht Press, but who in Act 2 now appears a radically changed character, a mean {{tq|scholar}} [he's actually a professor] whose book is now merely {{tq|personal opinion}} and tainted by association with the {{tq|'''Center for Kurdish Studies''' (sounds very neutral)}} [emphasis original] which, in the space of less than twenty-four hours, has now become unspeakably biased and unusable for reasons that remain unexplained.}} is too much. Stop now, we're going to need to discuss further. [[User:Valereee|—valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 23:06, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Revision as of 23:06, 30 December 2020

Vatican Hill and Old St Peter's Basilica, Rome. Illustration from the Nuremberg Chronicle (1490). The large domed structure with windows at the left represents the Mausoleum of Honorius
The topmost column drum of the Column of Leo, (in the gardens of the Topkapi Palace, Istanbul. The Forum of Leo in Constantinople was the probably the last Roman forum of Antiquity.
The Constantinian dynasty in the reign of Constantine the Great and his sons, with the augustus crowned by the manus dei
The Triumph of Joseph in Egypt, a reminiscence of the Constantinopolitan Roman triumphs of the Macedonian dynasty
Detail of Anicia Juliana, a 6th-century member f the Valentinianic–Theodosian dynasties, from the Vienna Dioscurides, her own copy of Dioscurides's De materia medica

Bibliography

Articles I wrote ab initio:

Articles I largely or wholly wrote or rewrote:

Articles I contributed to:

A barnstar for you!

The Barnstar of Diligence
For your work at The Holocaust in Bulgaria (formerly Rescue of the Bulgarian Jews). Bob not snob (talk) 05:49, 3 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A barnstar for you!

The Resilient Barnstar
I admire your astounding resilience with which you approach criticism directed at you. You don't edit war, but expand articles significantly, and as to me really well sourced to make a point. Just brilliant. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 22:33, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A barnstar for you!

The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar
The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar may be awarded to those who have prevented Wikipedia from being used for fraudulent purposes. - Daveout(talk) 20:48, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Z147


December 2020

Stop icon
You have been blocked indefinitely from editing because it appears that you are not here to build an encyclopedia.
If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, please read the guide to appealing blocks, then add the following text below the block notice on your talk page: {{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}.  Guerillero Parlez Moi 15:50, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Guerillero This is wrong on both counts! I have made thousands of constructive edits and this is simply shooting the messenger! You cannot possible have had time to look into all those diffs; so this is just reflexive. GPinkerton (talk) 15:54, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Seeing your third attempt to reopen your closed thread an ANI, it is fairly clear to me that you are here to right great wrongs and not build an encyclopedia. --Guerillero Parlez Moi 15:59, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Guerillero That's just not correct. Examination of the issue will show I am trying to preserve NPOV against intractable behavioural issues which long predate any involvement I had in the issue, with which I have no connection. I repeat that this is shooting the messenger. I have only made constructive edits to the relevant article, have made thousands of constructive edits on wholly unrelated subjects over three years, and far from RGW I am merely trying to align the article to what the academic sources say, an attempt resisted by the editors I have reported and whose behaviour administrators keep ignoring. What is NOTHERE about making an AN report? Where else would my concerns be addressed? GPinkerton (talk) 16:06, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Girth Summit, Valereee is it normal policy to indefinitely block an editor for raising concerns about WP:CRUSH, and WP:TE at WP:AN? I'm very worried about this. GPinkerton (talk) 16:13, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ivanvector has also identified that there is a problem with the subject area; perhaps they will comment on the reaction of Guerillero to my WP:AN reports? GPinkerton (talk) 19:02, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ivanvector can you help me understand what I need to do remove this block? GPinkerton (talk) 23:09, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Guerillero, I would agree with GPinkerton that they have made a lot of positive contributions to wikipedia. Take it from a guy who has been in many disputes with GPinkerton. I think an indef is too harsh.VR talk 16:28, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Guerillero, this is quite a weird indef. block for an editor who was had good arguments in the discussions and mostly underlined them with good sources, at least in the discussions I was involved with him. To bloc someone who argues with sources and is involved in several currently ongoing discussions for filing an ANI report straightly indef. within the personal! capacity of an admin, is not good for the democratic spirit of Wikipedia. In the same discussion there are multiple denials of a whole ethnic region cited in numerous sources, which just goes praised by the Admins with this bloc. With this block the ISIS-Assad-Erdogan POV wins over democracy.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 21:53, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • User:Paradise Chronicle, if you are contesting this block, attacking the blocking admin is usually not a good idea--"weird" is not a good term to use, and blaming the admin for allowing some sort of ISIS victory is definitely the wrong way to go about it. Guerillero has been an administrator for almost a decade, and they know what they are doing. That doesn't always make them right, but it certainly means that they thought carefully about the matter. Please find a more appropriate way to voice your concerns. Drmies (talk) 23:13, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        Drmies, I fully understand Paradise Chronicle's frustration in the way this issue has been handled over the past six months; I would never have taken the case to ANI if it had not been a serious and intractable problem that had been going five months or more already. GPinkerton (talk) 23:22, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry Drmies, but admins are refusing to address this very Erdogan-Assad POV (both often called Dictators by the Academics and their racist Anti-Kurdish stance is also very well documented by the Academics) and prefer to block the ones who raise their concerns about it for "what ever". (filing an extensive and well-prepared report about this very topic!???). Some of the reported also called areas and towns which were liberated from ISIS and Jihadis (the terrorist faction in the Syrian Civil War) Kurdish occupied multiple times. You can't find a reliable source for such POV. Just check the discussions GPinkerton has brought into the ANI.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 00:22, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Paradise Chronicle, you should make this argument somewhere else. GPinkerton (talk) 00:27, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'll try to bring it up at the next Admin elex, there several admins can read it. Seeing you being blocked for filing an extensive and well prepared report, makes me feel that there is no remedy against ISIS-Assad and Erdogan POV in Syria Kurdistan for now. I hope your request is successful, but let's see.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 01:03, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I found out Guerillero is a candidate for the ArbCom and I asked him for a comment about this block there. Maybe he wants to block all the ones who put up a report about an area where no admin is active? Who knows?They seem a decent candidate though, but in this block they made a mistake.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 20:33, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Paradise Chronicle, you can try raising the issue yourself; feel free to re-use any part of any of my reports, or all of them. GPinkerton (talk) 01:06, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
GPinkerton, I know that subject area is a mess, and I have no doubt that there is a huge amount of disruption, and likely socking and meating. But it's convoluted and there are no easy answers. I do not know what happened at ANI, but I do know that if an admin says "don't do that", it's a good idea not to do that. My problem with Paradise's edits wasn't their advocacy or the place of it, but the tone and the word choice. "Admins are refusing to address..." is not something I really believe: it all depends on the forum and what the questions are. I know there's a request at ArbCom for disruption in the Horn of Africa; maybe this is another thing ArbCom should handle, though I am not convinced.

What I do know, again, is that Guerillero will not have made this call lightly. I am not familiar with what led to the block but I know you a little bit now and I'm sorry to say that I am not surprised. I do not think you are a net negative, and I think that an unblock request can be successful, but you need to drop the urgency and let go of the immediate need to get back to those articles or whatever (we're not the news anyway), and then draft a good request. As long as your desire to edit seems to be driven by the apparent need to right something that's wrong, and as long as that seems to go at the expense of normal procedures and collegial behavior, you are probably not going to be successful. Note: I am talking about appearances, and in the happy absence of much factual knowledge here. Feel free to me ping me if you think I can be of help--but please keep in mind that above all else I prefer economy; few words are best. Good luck. Drmies (talk) 01:57, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Drmies, thanks for your comments and advice. The issue no-one seems interested in addressing is one related not to news but to the 1960s and before (especially the immediate aftermath of WWI) and the relationship of one to the other. This is all explained in the reports I have made (which I have a distinct feeling no-one has actually read properly) but because it isn't a well-known subject (or is being dismissed as partisan or related to the civil war) I am being unjustly accused of trying to "right great wrongs", whereas all I have done is make constructive edits and then discovered a pattern of behaviour that is, as I say, a massive problem.
More than anything I'd like someone to actually look in detail at the point I and others have been making about this problem; I think it would be discovered quite quickly there actually are easy answers in this case. I finished making the report at 15:49, 4 December 2020. Guerillero blocked me for it one minute or less afterwards. No-one can have read the report that quickly, examined the diffs, and come to a considered conclusion about the issue in that time. If no-one is going to believe that administrator oversight can fail in such a big way, then what hope is there? People seem quick to claim the "right great wrongs" line, but where is the actual evidence for that and why is no-one able to say I am actually wrong about any of this? GPinkerton (talk) 02:15, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Well Drmies, I was at multiple noticeboards and all admins did were blocking or call to order for not following "rules". I can't recall an admin who came into the dispute expanding the article, providing irrefutable facts in the article or ruling for or against academic sources. They didn't even question Amr Ibn for only removing academic sources=evidence for the existence of Syrian Kurdistan. A non-googlebale PhD source made its way against many (more than 10, WP:Overkill) academic googleable sources through a large part of the discussion. The PhD book review calling Western Kurdistan an "invention" was used in the lead for quite some time. We have here an issue between academic sources or WP:OR and POV. This doesn't require much admin action. Just rule academic or not academic.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 03:35, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Unblock request

I have been blocked for raising a report about problematic editing at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Intractable_problem_still_unaddressed_and_unabated;_administrator_action_deficient. I cannot be right that a serious problem be dealt with by indefinitely blocking the user that reported it and who has not been involved in it at all. Indeed, the blocking administrator cannot possibly have had time to read my report before deciding (quite against the ample evidence presented to the contrary) that I was the one not contributing constructively, and so this was clearly done reflexively, without judging the merits of the case and basically on prejudice. This has been a recurring theme in the mishandling of this entire issue. Below is the report:

I believe a very serious case of WP:CRUSH, WP:SEALION, and WP:TENDENTIOUS is afoot, and has been in progress for some time concerning Syrian Kurdistan (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs). It has been claimed that the bad temper of the content dispute has made it impossible to determine that this is happening. I do not agree that this is the case. Briefly, the issue concerns a propaganda line, dreamt up in the 1960s by the national socialist Ba'ath Party rulers of the Second Syrian Republic, which stated that the Kurdish-majority and oil-rich provinces in the extreme north were not historically Kurdish and that the Kurdish inhabitants were without exception illegal immigrants from Turkish Kurdistan. Though many were refugees or their descendants from the wars of the end of the Ottoman Empire, the Arab nationalist Ba'athists decided to ignore longstanding Kurdish settlement in Syria and what is now al-Hasakah Governorate, which were Kurdish majority at the beginning of the French Mandate of Syria and Lebanon. This unequivocal fact is stated numerous times by all reliable sources.

Furthermore, it is directly reported by unimpeachable sources that this xenophobic and racist propaganda was purpose-built and deployed specifically for the purpose of the Ba'athist ethnic cleansing campaign in Syrian Kurdistan known as the Arab Belt. This too is well-evidenced by top-tier academic sources. However, a significant coterie of editors, whose members have been previously heavily active in Syrian civil war articles and repeatedly blocked for ethno-nationalistic edit warring in middle east topics generally, has emerged on the talk page of that article who repeat this nonsense as fact and are tenaciously distorting primary sources to (not-really-)agree with this nationalist claim. Evidence for all of this is abundant, yet no serious action has been taken, and the problem remains unacknowledged and unmitigated. The narrative continues to be presented as fact using wilfully misinterpreted primary sources and argumentum ex silentio in secondary sources while ignoring or dismissing as kurdish pov every and all reliable source. This has now been going on for many weeks and urgent action is desperately needed, just as it was when this issue first came to ANI more a month ago! So far little more than washing of hands and complaints about incivility have ensued; it is obvious actual steps need to be taken in a clear direction: away from the nationalist POV-pushing, which needs to be put permanently to an end. GPinkerton (talk) 22:11, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Irrefutable evidence the narrative pushed on the talk page, of Kurds as foreigners in Syrian territory, is nothing but Arab Nationalist racism

  • Historically they have been concentrated in three discontiguous places in northern Syria, namely,
    i) The northeastern corner of Syria, … is to the west of Mosul. … This area has been Kurdish majority since official records began in the last century. The encompassing Syrian governorate is called al-Hasaka (formerly Jazira) … Kurdish and Christian coexistence has generally been long-standing here.
    ii) The Kobanê (Ain al-Arab to Arabs) district is in the northeast of the Aleppo governorate, in northcentral Syria …
    iii) The most northerly and western part of Syria, a mountainous outcrop of the Anatolian plateau, the Efrîn (Afrīn in Arabic) district, … Ethnographically the Kurds here are indistinguishable from the Kurds of Turkey and unquestionably in their homeland. …O'Leary, Brendan (January 2018). "The Kurds, the Four Wolves, and the Great Powers – Review: The Kurds of Syria by Harriet Allsopp. London: Tauris, 2015. The Kurds of Iraq: Nationalism and Identity in Iraqi Kurdistan by Mahir A. Aziz. (2nd ed.) London: Palgrave Macmillan, 2015. Out of Nowhere: The Kurds of Syria in Peace and War by Michael M. Gunter. London: Hurst, 2014. The Kurds: A Modern History by Michael M. Gunter. Princeton, NJ: Wiener, 2016. Alien Rule by Michael Hechter. Cambridge University Press, 2013. Political Violence and Kurds in Turkey by Mehmet Orhan. London: Routledge, 2015. Kurds and the State in Iran: The Making of Kurdish Identity by Abbas Vali. London: Tauris, 2014". The Journal of Politics. 80 (1): 353–366. doi:10.1086/695343. ISSN 0022-3816.

and

  • Under the French mandate after World War I, Syria became an important center for Kurdish political and cultural activism until its independence in 1946. In addition to the Kurds in major urban centers and Kurdish enclaves in northern Syria, Kurdish refugees also arrived from Turkey. A Kurdish nationalist organization, Khoybun, operated in Syria and Lebanon and spearheaded the Ararat Re-bellion (1928-31) against Turkey. Exiled Kurdish nationalists from Turkey played a major role in Syria and Lebanon. The Jaladet, Sureya and Kamuran brothers from the princely Bedirkhan family, for example, led a Kurdish cultural movement. The end of the French mandate and the eventual rise of the Baath regime in Syria created a serious backlash for the Kurds. Gunter indicates that the Baath regime came to view Kurds as a foreign threat to the Arab nation, and it repressed them after the early 1960s. Kurds in Syria, as a result, came to be less known in the West, as compared to their compatriots in Iraq, Turkey and Iran. Some Kurds were stripped of their citizenship in 1962 on the grounds that they supposedly all came from Turkey. Moreover, the state tried to Arabize the Kurdish territories in northern Syria. Gunter adds that the fractured Kurdish political-party system is another reason for the invisibility of the Syrian Kurds until the early 2000s.
    — Akturk, Ahmet Serdar (assistant professor of history, Georgia Southern University) (2016). "Review: The Kurds: A Modern History, by Michael M. Gunter. Markus Wiener Publishers, 2015. 256 pages. $26.95, paperback". Middle East Policy. 23 (3): 152–156. doi:10.1111/mepo.12225. ISSN 1475-4967.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

Evidence

Besides Syrian Kurdistan (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) and Arab Belt (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs), there may be large numbers of article where this POV push is going on, in Syrian Civil War- and Kurdistan-related issues, including over place names in disputed territories in Syria and other parts of the Middle East (Golan Heights, Jerusalem, etc. See contributions and block logs of involved users, including on Wikimedia Commons). See more discussions and diffs at:

I hope this is enough for someone to take this entrenched problem seriously. I can produce incontrovertible evidence that all of these claims these editors have been arguing are false, and I believe I have done so in the section above; further details are available on request. GPinkerton (talk) 16:32, 4 December 2020 (UTC)}}[reply]

This user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who declined the request. Other administrators may also review this block, but should not override the decision without good reason (see the blocking policy).

GPinkerton (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

Request reason:

(see above)

Decline reason:

Declined per WP:NOTTHEM, WP:STICK, WP:IDNHT. I have moved the above overlong unblock request out of the unblock template because it nearly broke the template. Sandstein 20:38, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

Sandstein Is it proper for you to respond to this request, since you are already part of the dispute? I have a feeling this should be examined by an WP:UNINVOLVED administrator, rather than one who has already made their position on whether I should bother reporting abuse plain. GPinkerton (talk) 20:43, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • (ec oooooh, too late) I'm afraid the community is feeling a bit exhausted by you. The admin actually did you a favor by unilaterally blocking you; if the block comes from the community -- which it still could -- you couldn't be unblocked without another community discussion. Guerillero's block can be addressed by an individual admin.
What you might try is opening an unblock request with a reason of, "I can see my editing is considered disruptive. I would like to take a step back from editing in contentious areas, so I'd like to request being able to resume editing under a tban from articles under discretionary sanctions."
I believe you're editing in good faith, but you just seem to be unable to hear what everyone is telling you about Syrian Kurdistan, and a look at your user talk shows multiple other warnings, long discussions in which other editors try to give advice, but you seem to continue to get in trouble when editing in contentious areas. I see you have an interest in church architecture. That might be a good place to focus. —valereee (talk) 16:39, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I can tell you that no admin is going to unblock you with that as an unblock reason, and the longer you draw this out, the more likely it is someone's going to close the ANI with a community consensus block. —valereee (talk) 16:41, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Valereee, I have only made constructive edits to that page. No-one has suggested otherwise. No-one has said I am editing disruptively, only that my talk page comments have been uncivil, which I have repeatedly accepted. Repeating this has obscured the real issue. I don't accept that there is any need for me to be topic-banned; quite the opposite. That should be the minimum sanction on the editors I have repeatedly reported and which administrators have repeatedly refused to acknowledge or deal with. This is purely shooting the messenger; it is apparently easier to block me that actually to look at the issue in which I am very clearly in the right and in which numerous behavioural issues have been identified which extend far beyond any page I have ever edited and has gone on for years before I ever edited Wikipedia. I have heard what others have told me, but none of that contradicts the facts here, and numerous uninvolved editors and admins have concurred with me that a mass-POV push is underway and needs to be dealt with, but no action has been taken and attempts I have made to secure this outcome ahs resulted in my being blocked without even reading the report I made. This simply isn't right. GPinkerton (talk) 16:50, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I REALLY suggest you read Wikipedia:Guide to appealing blocks - especially the sections WP:GAB#Stick to the point and WP:GAB#Talk about yourself, not others. And you might reread the various warnings you were given earlier on this page - you're not listening to the very well meant advice, and at this point, you're unlikely to last long unless you start listening to the advice. -- Ealdgyth (talk) 16:46, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ealdgyth Thanks for your comments, and I have listened to the advice. As far as I can see, none of it advises acceptance of mass POV pushing that I have nothing to do with and cessation of reports of such behaviour, and I have never been advised that making WP:AN reports would result in my being blocked! I cannot believe it is wrong for me to make WP:AN reports about breaches of policy, which is the states reason for this. What can I talk about that I have done wrong in this case? GPinkerton (talk) 16:56, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This may help. Wikipedia:Unblock perspectives. At this point, whether you are right or wrong is irrelevant. Brutal perhaps, but that seems to be the case with WP. It is not what you are saying, it is how you are saying it. Please read Unblock perspectives. Read it a couple of times, and don't immediately comment. It may seem like a cynical piece, but it is the reality of how WP works. And what is going through the Admin's minds? Read Wikipedia:Give 'em enough rope. That will tell you. I am giving you this in total good faith, because technically you could be an excellent editor. Please just read the stuff and try to internalise it. Regards Simon Adler (talk) 19:48, 4 December 2020 (UTC).[reply]
Simon Adler, sadly, it seems to me it is neither what I am saying nor how I am saying it, but that I am saying anything at all. I complain about administrator inaction; I am blocked by an administrator for doing so. I have asked for further explanation. I am wrong to think my complaint has merit? I would really rather the issue be dealt with and NPOV restored in the affected pages, which may run into the hundreds and certainly number in the dozens; unblocking is not my primary objective at the moment. GPinkerton (talk) 20:11, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
GPinkerton I have struck my above comments purely because I believe your points have validity, especially in the Syrian-Kurdistan articles. I would ask you again however to take seriously the points that essays on how to frame an acceptable appeal make. Please frame your appeals purely on the points those essays recommend. Realistically, it may well be that you will have to accept a topic ban on those areas for at least a year. Acceptance will allow you to continue to edit. You may have to modify your tone generally and be more measured in your edit summaries and language, whatever field you edit in. However, many new eyes have been drawn to the (I believe concerning) points you have made. Other, uninvolved editors may now cast a fresh eye on these articles. It should be encouraging to you that Drmies chose a colleagual tone in his last message. Please do not blame admins, for they are expected to be instant experts on a myriad of complex topics. Let the ordinary editing community take a look. These things can take time but if a consensus develops that your arguments have validity, then all readjusts itself. There is WP Karma. Goodnight, or rather Goodmorning. Simon Adler (talk) 04:18, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
GPinkerton, I am not involved because in closing your WP:AN request I have interacted with you in an administrative capacity only. Feel free, though, to make another unblock request, which will be reviewed by another admin. Sandstein 20:48, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Sandstein, can you clarify whether you closed it because you believe the report has no merit or for some other reason? GPinkerton (talk) 20:50, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
GPinkerton, it is your unblock request that had no merit. You must address your own conduct, not that of others. Sandstein 21:31, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Sandstein, my unblock request came after I was blocked; you closed the AN thread before that; why? GPinkerton (talk) 21:32, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who declined the request. Other administrators may also review this block, but should not override the decision without good reason (see the blocking policy).

GPinkerton (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

Request reason:

Having been blocked for making a report to WP:AN about inadequate administrator action in regard to users' behaviour on Syrian Kurdistan and numerous related articles, (Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Intractable_problem_still_unaddressed_and_unabated;_administrator_action_deficient), I propose that I be unblocked on condition that I do not make any further such reports. GPinkerton (talk) 21:19, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Decline reason:

You're still talking about others' actions as much as yourself, and still pulling in the issues that led to the block - the mass walls of text above and the multiple, over and over, noticeboard ranting are symptoms, not the disease. You have very clearly established that you are here to right great wrongs and not to collaboratly build an encyclopedia. You should have dropped the stick some time ago - if you believe there's a massive problem, but nobody else acts on it when you repeatedly bring it up, the answer is to accept that consensus is against you, not to continually rant about it and make demands - which you still are here since your block. My advice is that you take a deep breath, take a wikibreak for a week or so, and then come back with a clear head, assess your behavior and how that resulted in your being blocked, and then calmly explain how those reflections will allow you to avoid a repeat performance. - The Bushranger One ping only 00:49, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

Request

This user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who accepted the request.

GPinkerton (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

Request reason:

I think I am ready to return to editing. I recognize that I have handled disputes poorly and I will endeavour to avoid conflict like that in future. I am willing to undertake to follow whatever restrictions or recommendations are proposed. I have always been here to build the encyclopaedia and I see that my actions recently have obscured that and got in the community's way. GPinkerton (talk) 01:08, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Accept reason:

The blocking admin has proposed a topic ban, which GPinkerton promised to adhere to. Took a while, but glad we got this sorted. El_C 00:33, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to discuss this unblock request. In it, you wrote "There is no risk of further disruption on my part" and " I'm ready to begin editing anew." and yet here we are. Given your previous promise, why should a reviewing administrator believe you this time? --Guy Macon (talk) 01:51, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Because of the thousands of helpful edits I've made since and all the productive discussions I've been part of in between, and because I have always been editing in good faith. I got caught up in things and got carried away but I've never been hostile to the project's aims. You have expressed a desire not to be pinged so I haven't and because you have said you didn't want to interact I'm hesitant to respond at all. GPinkerton (talk) 02:04, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I apologize for forgetting that I previously expressed a desire not to interact with you. I have stricken my question and am unwatching this page.
Not that I want to get involved but about that last point: this is sending mixed signals: 1 2 3. Levivich harass/hound 02:19, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Not really. I was getting a lot of pings, and when I participate in a discussion I watchlist that discussion, so there is no need to constantly ping me. --Guy Macon (talk) 02:40, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Rope extended

You know what? This (latest) unblock request actually makes sense to me. It's brief but it's good. Myself, I've only a passing familiarity with GPinkerton (in so far as me noticing active editors on my ~100,000 page watchlist), but my impression of him is of a content editor of the first order. I have never gotten a sense that he was on the project to right great wrongs, certainly not to the point of being NOTHERE. So, I'm willing to accept that the disruption and bludgeoning that led him to be sanctioned were episodic rather than systemic in nature. It may well be true that the problems GPinkerton claims to have identified in the topic area are real and acute, but that for whatever reason (say, shortage of volunteer hours), review mechanisms have failed him. And so, frustration set in, leading to the misconduct which brought on the block/s. Anyway, if GPinkerton's representation of the issues facing the topic area are accurate, eventually, someone else ie likely to bring em up. But, hey, it may take years to sort out, if at all. I know, lot of hypotheticals — sorry for digressing. My proposal: I am willing to lift the block, so long as the blocking admin is amenable (ping: Guerillero), with a topic ban from the topic area being imposed for a minimum of one year. That said, I would be remiss in neglecting to mention that a couple of matters give me pause. First, one problem with this (3rd) unblock request is that it was submitted a mere 2 days after the last one, which feels a bit rushed — 2 weeks would have been better. But, meh enough. What is more concerning is the block log, which is entirely filled with a recent succession of blocks and unblocks. I mean, this is as last chance saloon as it gets. But what can I say? I'm a hopeless optimist. El_C 23:56, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

El C, FWIW, the blocks from me should be counted as halved from 4 to 2. It was half my rethinkings. —valereee (talk) 00:05, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Val. Yes, I did notice that you sitewide blocked then unblocked, the first time. And that you sitewide blocked, again, but then converted to a partial block, the second time (i.e. 4 entries in the log amounting to 2 distinct sets of actions). El_C 00:14, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
El C, first of all thank you for your confidence and the good words, and I think your summation of the events is exactly right and all the blocks were for talk-page issues. Secondly, and having said I would accept whatever restriction, a year's topic ban seems a harsh measure from my perspective, since I did not make any disruptive edits to any article-page and, as you say, I'm not one to make tendentious edits. Also, how would a topic ban be defined; which exactly is the topic area? GPinkerton (talk) 00:25, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • @El C: I would be okay with a topic ban from Islam and post-632 CE middle east. That should allow GPinkerton to continue to work on archaeology articles away from the area of contention. --Guerillero Parlez Moi 01:10, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I would also be amendable to moving the topic ban to post-1453 CE --Guerillero Parlez Moi 01:15, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Guerillero I don't understand? The disruption was occasioned only by Syrian Kurdistan, an article I expanded significantly and a subject has to do with post-WWI geopolitics (French Mandate of Syria 1919), not Islam. In addition, one of my main editing interests is the East Roman empire, so post-632 CE middle east would block me from an entire area which badly needs expansion. GPinkerton (talk) 01:19, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
GPinkerton, you're welcome. Actually, I don't think one year is too harsh — intuitively, it feels just right. As for how the topic ban is to be defined in terms of scope, I'm not really sure. Initially, I thought it would be limited to anything to do with the Kurds (especially historical demography), but whatever you and Guerillero feel is best works for me. I confess to not being that familiar with the nature of your recent dispute/s, so I am happy to go with the flow on that front. El_C 01:37, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@El C and GPinkerton: My follow up was 1453, which would give you access to the whole Byzantine Empire --Guerillero Parlez Moi 01:43, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Guerillero,El C, as I say, it's only Syrian Kurdistan that has been at issue. Originally I was blocked from that page for a week before it was upgraded to total and indefinite. Post-1919 would make more sense. GPinkerton (talk) 01:48, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Your first block was for edit-warring on Vashti - so it's not just Syrian Kurdistan that makes you jump to edit warring. While you haven't had issues since then with that article ... neither have you edited it since you were unblocked, so it's not clear if the issues were resolved and you learned a lesson or if you just dropped the article completely. (And please don't ping me - I'm watching the page). -- Ealdgyth (talk) 01:53, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Both Debresser and me were blocked. I have not since removed his text, though I still think "unlikely" misrepresents the "could not" of the source. That was a long time ago, and I had not done much editing before that. (Although my account is older, I have had more time to contribute since this spring ...) GPinkerton (talk) 01:59, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Cullen328 agrees on post-1453 middle east, FWIW. --Guerillero Parlez Moi 02:09, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That assessment appears to be based on my editing of Hagia Sophia being "highly problematic", which I don't think is at all justified. I have written nearly 50% of that article, replacing some very dubious material and incompetent bungling from year ago, and writing from scratch most of the recent politics sections, involving middle eastern geopolitics, and the only objections have been to particular 15th-century legends (and not others). GPinkerton (talk) 02:40, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) I think that's a good topic ban limitation - keep it in the Middle East countries though - Hellespont and east of that. I'd lean post-1453, but post-632 would also work. Or just a ban from anything broadly related to Kurds would also work. GP needs to start listening to other folks when they give him advice - being right in a content discussion isn't everything on Wikipedia - collaborative editing IS, however. They did get drawn into a buzzsaw, but if they want to be effective, they need to edit in areas that are not as emotionally charged for them so they can learn the ropes of Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ealdgyth (talk • contribs)

Here is my offer. El C might offer you a better one, but this is mine. A 1 year topic ban from post-1453 middle east. After 6 months of issue free editing under the topic ban, approach me with a single article that you would like to improve (that is reasonable) and a plan to improve it and I will give you a carve out for that article. If you can show that you can edit without problems for six months and a carve out, I would be happy to lift the topic ban early. --Guerillero Parlez Moi 02:20, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Guerillero, what you propose (and it seems to have support from others) seems fair to me. But there is one thing: having article improvement as a test isn't the best way to measure progress here. As others have noted, and GPinkerton agrees I think, it's not so much the article work, it's the stuff on talk pages, to put it crudely. That stuff is related to article edits (and warring), of course, but for me the question is whether GPinkerton can treat other editors on talk pages in collegial ways, without flooding them with text etc. I know this is not an easy thing to assess metrically or otherwise. El C, I do not know right now (plus it's really cold here and I need more coffee) how to formulate my thoughts any clearer, sorry. I do not oppose GPinkerton's return, and I hope I made that clear, but I also don't want to whisk away the frustration noted by other editors. Drmies (talk) 15:41, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't oppose GP's return, either, and I agree that from what I've seen, the problem isn't bad editing on articles. The problem is talk page behavior and GP's tendency to go directly to "but that's not the biggest problem here, why are admins ignoring the content problems I keep explaining at length and which are the fault of other editors' intentional misrepresentation of sources" whenever talk page behavior is brought up. Multiple people have tried to explain that admins are trying to solve the behavior issues so that other editors will maybe be willing to come in and help with the content disputes, but we can't seem to get through on that. That said, GP is correct that they weren't the only editor at Talk:Syrian Kurdistan ABFing and putting up walls of text. —valereee (talk) 18:25, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Sorry to interject, but I think GPinkerton's bolded comment below is a pretty good crystal ball into what we're all going to be busy with for the days following any unblock until one or both of the users end up blocked again. Debresser's obvious vendetta is getting tiring, but GPinkerton just can't seem to do anything without finding fault, and seems entirely incapable of dropping any dispute, even while blocked. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 19:27, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    The bolded seems perfectly reasonable. The follow-up below it doesn't help, and GP would be wise to not say too much right now. But I'm sure it's frustrating for GP to see several admins expressing concerns about Debresser's vendetta without any of them actually doing anything about it. If an indef block of GP isn't enough to stop the spat between these two users, it would seem that fault lies on more than one side. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 20:36, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    It's really hard to drop a stick when every day different people keep showing up to fight. I'd be holding on to that stick pretty tightly, too. When is the last calendar day on which GP did not have to defend against new accusations posted by someone, somewhere on this website? Weeks? Over a month? We will not get anything from GP other than siege mentality until the siege ends, which should have been when GP was indefinitely blocked, because that is when any and all GP-caused disruption ended. I'm not commenting on the block, or on unblock conditions, but I am saying: let's give an editor some breathing room. Levivich harass/hound 20:47, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree. GP understandably probably does feel under siege. GP, all are not against you, and if in the immediate future you behave as if they are, the outcome is likely to be unhappy. I don't want to see that happen. When this ends, put it behind you. Let the feeling dissipate. Do you think you can do that? —valereee (talk) 21:10, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Valereee, I can. GPinkerton (talk) 15:40, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I proposed an interaction ban specifically to prevent attacks like Debresser's most recent, and none of you supported it (excepting GPinkerton of course). Levivich explicitly opposed it, and also made a specific proposal to do nothing. It's fine to keep saying "something needs to be done" but whenever someone with the authority to do something suggests an action, you say no. The only proposal in that clusterfuck of a discussion that got any kind of broad support (but hardly consensus) was the one that was titled "Permanent block", and look where we are; now you're saying no to that too. What do you expect admins to do here? Just unblocking GPinkerton with no further restrictions and doing nothing to address the ongoing toxic environment in the affected articles is just going to land us right back here in probably less than a week, and no I don't think that's entirely GPinkerton's doing.
    GPinkerton, ignoring everything else that's been written here, I will unblock you today on the sole condition that you will prepare an Arbcom case request regarding the behaviour of editors (not the content) involved in the Syrian Kurdistan talk page, or any broader scope you think is appropriate. I'm sure you are well aware that your own behaviour will also be scrutinized if the arbitration committee accepts your request. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 14:00, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Ivanvector, firstly, on a technical note, it's not very clear who is being addressed in your first paragraph, you may want to clarify.
    On the second point, I am certainly amenable to the idea of arbitration, but I don't know anything about Arbcom and will need a lot of guidance. Indeed, I'm not sure I'm really best placed to file the request at all, given all that's happened so far, but it would certainly need to treat of the same issues cropping up at, say, Al-Jazira Province (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) (note recent history), Al-Hasakah Governorate (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) (note recent changes to "Demographics" section), Al-Malikiyah (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) (note move wars over Arabic vs Kurdish name), and Afrin District (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) (note recent changes). GPinkerton (talk) 14:25, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    GPinkerton, I'd like you to keep this in mind, but Guerillero has inadvertently reminded me that I really don't have the capacity to support you in compiling evidence and filing a request right now, probably not before the new year and even then it's iffy. I do think that the broader dispute is going to end up at Arbcom eventually, but maybe someone else following this discussion can help you with preparing for that. My apologies, I'm going to have to bow out. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 14:45, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Ivanvector, OK thanks for your advice. GPinkerton (talk) 15:35, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    @GPinkerton: I would take this on if I wasn't waiting on arbcom election results. If you are interested in filing a case request, I will convert your site block into a block from the article space, talk space, WP:ANI and WP:AN so you can work on the request. You seem to be uninterested in my offer, above, so I will let you work it out with El C for your reentry into the wider community --In actu (Guerillero) Parlez Moi 16:05, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Guerillero, thanks, I do understand your position in that regard. I don't mean to appear uninterested; I'm just confused as to what course I should take at this point. I'm getting conflicting advice and there seems doubt about what action should be taken, or when that action should be, or who should take it. On one hand a ban on my discussing the whole topic is proposed; on the other the proposal is for me to begin a new discussion on the matter. GPinkerton (talk) 17:16, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Guerillero, GPinkerton, I'm still ready to lift the block with immediate effect once both of you sign on to the scope, length and overall nature of the restriction. Guerillero's detailed proposal above (with its six-month followup and so on) works for me — so GPinkerton, all you have to say is I'm good with that, and as far as I'm concerned, you're good to go. As for Ivanvector's proposal about filing an arbitration case, I do generally like the idea of launching an arbitration case which covers the Kurdish topic area overall (I'll explain why in a sec), but I also think that such a step ought to be strictly voluntary. Which is to say: what I don't like about that proposal is Guerillero's notion of partially blocking GPinkerton from the entire article and article talk namespace (beyond the affected topic area) that are to be conditionally attached in the interim. I just don't see the utility in doing that (it feels like a bit of an overreach). In any case, once unblocked, GPinkerton would be free to file an arbitration case at any time while still being subject everywhere else to a restriction from the topic area. In fact, in my view, this (RfAR) ought to be the only place where he'd be allowed to discuss the dispute. Naturally, the Committee has the authority to modify any existing restrictions (including lifting them outright) as they see fit. But pursuing this should be totally up to him. I'll end this comment by telling everyone why the idea of an arbitration case involving the topic area appeals to me. It appeals to me because I strongly believe that the topic area would greatly benefit in being placed under the Committee's Discretionary Sanctions regime (probably more so than the recent Horn of Africa topic area, for example). In fact, earlier in the year (or later last year, I forget which), I myself had proposed General Sanctions which were to cover the topic area of the Kurds and Kurdistan. But while my proposal did enjoy support (and to the best of my recollection, no opposition) from several editors and admins familiar with the topic area, it still never quite got off the ground. So, having someone else give it a go — well, I'm all for that. But, again, if GPinkerton decides this isn't something he, himself, wishes to take on at this time (or at any point in the future), I just don't think that is something he should be faulted for in any way whatsoever. El_C 19:09, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    El C, the Syrian part of Kurdistan is already under Discretionary Sanctions (relating to the Civil War and ISIS), but that does not seem to fix the issue.
    I said before I'm willing to undertake to follow whatever restrictions or recommendations are proposed, but I'd like to clarify some questions: would the topic ban prevent me from returning to editing the Murder of Samuel Paty? It's not the Middle East but various Middle Eastern countries (especially Turkey) involved themselves as the article was being written. Again, would it prevent me from making such edits as I recently made to the lead of Diyarbakır? It's a present-day city in Turkey but my expansions were all about Roman-era Amida in Mesopotamia. I was planning to make similar improvements at Dara (Mesopotamia) (ruined ancient city in Turkey, immediately north of the Syrian border) and Nusaybin (ancient Nisibis, present-day city literally on the border and contiguous with Qamishli, de facto capital of Syrian Kurdistan); would that be acceptable? All these places were vitally important Roman cities in Late Antiquity and strategically essential then as now. Would anything stop me editing Hagia Sophia? (I'm only about midway through rewriting all of it with proper sources ...) GPinkerton (talk) 14:30, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Another test case would be Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_321#RfC:_Daily_Sabah; would I be barred from contributing to discussions like that? GPinkerton (talk) 14:42, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    GPinkerton, as far as the scope of the ban goes, as drafted by Guerillero, it is: Islam and post-1453 CE middle east. Do I have an answer to your questions about this or that article? No, not immediately, sorry. It's probably better to ask Guerillero or Valereee about these, in any case, as they both are far more familiar with the nature of your dispute/s in so far as applying common sense to the terms of the ban as stated above. My role here was more narrowly to have unlocked the door by placing your unblock request on hold, and now I am standing ready to open said door once you give me the go ahead. Anyway, generally, I would advise you to err on the side of caution. Mind you, as far as borderline pages go, if you make uncontentious changes, it's likely that no one would end up caring. Still, I hope you are able to beware and be aware of the danger signs (whichever these are) of faltering in that. Finally, the reason I am advocating for a Kurdish (overall) DS, which I argue would serve editors better than the current coverage provided by the GS, is the following: first, the GS in this case is limited — for example, obviously, the pre-civil war relationship between the Ba'athist state and the Kurds precedes and falls outside the scope of WP:GS/SCW (granted, for articles other than Syrian Kurdistan, where the GS is already in effect). And second and equally important, AE, the reporting mechanism provided for DS violations, is a superior platform to AN and ANI, the reporting mechanisms provided for GS violations. El_C 04:53, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    El C, thanks for explaining all that, and I do agree the subject area is worthy of top-level sanctions. There are so many geopolitical grievances emballed in the Kurdish question that it's definitely worth pursuing. If you and Guerillero can spare your advice on how to go about all this I'd much appreciate it. GPinkerton (talk) 18:37, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I wonder whether Girth Summit would comment on the idea of arbitration? I notice a new Kurdistan-related issue has arisen at ANI, encompassing Diyarbekir and Kirkuk. GPinkerton (talk) 16:08, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    GPinkerton, I can't work out the indenting here, and I haven't been following this discussion (I've had a lot going on in real life in the last couple of weeks, haven't been doing much on wiki) - what idea of arbitration are you asking me to comment on? GirthSummit (blether) 16:27, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Girth Summit, sorry I'm not used to the way reply link magically decides where comments should go. In the comments a few above, Ivanvector and El C have suggested an arbitration request should be filed dealing with either the editors on the Syrian Kurdistan page or even with the whole Kurdish Question on Wikipedia, extending beyond the Syrian Civil War/ISIS sanctions that currently cover the Syrian angle of the long-running geopolitical issue(s). (I've noticed you've been away, hope everything's OK.) I just ask because you were involved in earlier discussions and the first block I was given in the matter, and I saw your name appear on the new ANI thread, which deals with the general topic. GPinkerton (talk) 16:36, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    GPinkerton, arbitration isn't an area I'm deeply familiar with. In general terms, if either Ivanvector or El C said something was worth trying, I would be surprised if it wasn't a good idea. If they both say it's worth trying...
    Everything is well with me, but my school is experiencing some COVID-themed staff absences, so I'm covering lessons in what would otherwise have been my non-contact time, which has the knock-on effect of pushing marking and prep work into the evenings. Oh, and we got a new puppy So yeah, free time is lacking at the moment - roll on the Christmas hols. GirthSummit (blether) 16:43, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Girth Summit, part of the difficulty is that a range of options for framing the request are presented and I know even less about arbitration. I guess it was also a question of whether you thought discretionary sanctions would help in any of the Kurdistan-related pages that have come to ANI recently, including the one you recently commented on.
    You do sound busy, so no urgent need for your help! GPinkerton (talk) 17:26, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I would also like to ask for Levivich's opinion on possible arbitration on the Kurdish question, now that the continuing discussion has turned another circle and all the arguments have been reiterated another time without progress. GPinkerton (talk) 20:43, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    That really depends on the election results, doesn't it? :-) Arbcom is like democracy: the worst possible system, except for all the others. This is a multi-editor, multi-article content-turned-conduct dispute that has been raging for months with maybe a dozen noticeboard threads and like half a dozen admin issuing blocks of multiple users, concerning our coverage of entho-religious civil wars occurring simultaneously in multiple states in the Middle East, involving Putin, Trump, and ISIS. So arbcom will probably decline. :-P Broadening DS and GS (and then also actually using those powers by imposing sanctions as needed) is probably inevitable and may be a good idea, and it's also probably inevitable that this will reach some arbcom at some point, and someone has to file the case request, so I can see the argument for why not you and why not now. But I think it's very likely your conduct will be examined and the arbs (any arbs) are likely to agree with admins, who all seem to agree with sanctions, and so I think an arbcom case will likely end with you being sanctioned (possibly also others, and possibly others worse than you). That may happen either way and you may think it's worth it anyway, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Levivich harass/hound 22:14, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Levivich, I think that without an ex machina intervention the story is just going to go on repeating. Some participants are (or have been) already under arbitration sanctions on similar themes; POV-pushing has been noted already. The whole subject is an Important Issue and should be treated as such here, and this has gone on for so long that my part in the dispute is likely to be considered a minor one in any case. GPinkerton (talk) 23:57, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

GP, from a very brief glance at that RfC, this part of your comment: for just about anything touching Turkey's politics, its foreign relations, its wars, and its president would definitely be over the line. IMO simply participating in that discussion wouldn't; a Turkish news source arguably is not inherently part of the middle east. I'm sure you could find a way to comment without mentioning Turkey. But it might be seen at minimum as gaming the system. And the closer the source gets to the topic, the more likely simply participating would violate the tban. Obviously you shouldn't participate in discussion of the reliability of a book about Turkey. I'm not going to be hopping along behind you watching for you to put a foot over the line, but I'm guessing someone out there will. If they reported it to me, I'd likely give you a warning as long as I thought the violation was unintentional or you'd already reverted yourself. But not everyone gives warnings when they feel the person has already been adequately warned, including via discussions like this one. So, yes, topic bans stink. —valereee (talk) 13:54, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Valereee, could I push you to comment on the other examples please? I want to be sure what is included. GPinkerton (talk) 15:57, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
GP, again this is a very brief glance. Paty was killed by an Islamist terrorist; my feeling is Islamist terrorists are part of Islam, but of course most Muslims don't claim them, so I guess it's possible others would argue it isn't. Diyarbarkir and other existing cities. Hm. I think as long as you stayed away from anything post 1453, you'd be okay there, but again others might interpret it differently. Any city that is in ruins IMO you're fine on, although of course if there's anything about Islam or post-1453, I'd stay away from the section. Hagia Sophia I'd say possibly, as long as you focussed solely on the architecture, pre-1453 history, etc., but again other people might disagree. The problem with tbans is that when you construe them broadly, which is typical, anything that comes anywhere near them can be argued to be covered, and any of these are close enough. Somebody who wants to cause you trouble could try to ding you for any article that even mentions Islam or the middle east. As EI_C points out, if you don't edit/discuss contentiously at those pages, most well-intentioned editors will welcome your help. If your appearance coincides with discussions there suddenly becoming contentious, it is very likely other editors will see you as the source of the contentiousness.
Maybe you could suggest that for articles that are anywhere close to the topic like these examples are, you can at least safely ask on your own talk for guidance about editing specific sections of specific articles, on a case-by-case basis, as long as if the answer is no you don't then try to argue the point? :D If you can show that you tried upfront to clarify with an admin, it'll go a long way to proving there was no ill-intent. —valereee (talk) 17:48, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Valereee, thanks very much for your advice! I'm especially interested in editing the Samuel Paty and Hagia Sophia articles; the authorship of both is pages is substantially mine and I have much more to do on both pages. GPinkerton (talk) 18:12, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Valereee, Levivich There's something very familiar about Talk:Rojava_conflict#Requested_move_10_December_2020 and this edit ... GPinkerton (talk) 20:14, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I think El C was right about arbcom. Levivich harass/hound 20:25, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Levivich, and Ivanvector. Do you know your way around there? Because I don't. I can offer time, though. —valereee (talk) 20:31, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ugh, GP, I think this probably violates could be interpreted as violating your tban...why don't you strike your post, and Levivich and I will discuss somewhere else, where you're welcome to read but probably shouldn't comment, at least until you ask probably either Guerillero or EI C for advice. And shit...does this make me involved at SK? Well, if it does, probably worth it now that CEek is willing to help out. —valereee (talk) 20:34, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Valereee, surely continuing a discussion about the subject of arbitration can't be a violation? GPinkerton (talk) 20:53, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
GPinkerton, the problem is I just don't know how others will interpret it. FTR, IMO this is a good-faith request for advice, especially since it's on your own talk. But I would recommend you ask someone else also. —valereee (talk) 21:40, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

14 December

  • Guerillero, Valereee, El C, Ivanvector, originally I was partially blocked from Talk:Syrian Kurdistan for seven days on 2nd December by Valereee. Guerillero changed this to indefinite on 4th December. I think it's been established I am here to build the encyclopaedia and not to right great wrongs, the rationale for that decision. The original partial block would have ended on the 9th December. Can I be unblocked now? GPinkerton (talk) 18:38, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
GPinkerton, I'd like you to answer the following question directly and unambiguously first: are you good with Guerillero's (minimum 6-month) topic ban as pertaining to Islam and post-1453 CE middle east? El_C 18:52, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
El C, yes. I think it's unnecessary, but yes, I am willing to abide by it. GPinkerton (talk) 00:19, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
GPinkerton, you are good to go. Best of luck and happy editing! El_C 00:33, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
El C, many thanks! I'd still like your advice on how else to proceed, but that need not be now. Thanks for all your time so far! GPinkerton (talk) 00:38, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
GPinkerton, you are most welcome. Absolutely, we'll talk soon. Best wishes, El_C 02:17, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

subsectioning stricken for ease of nav

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I liked your eyechart

You may like this one: [5]. And this one, if you haven't seen already: [6]. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:19, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Gråbergs Gråa Sång, I'm glad someone did! I couldn't resist, it's too perfect. Those are both excellent and I had heard neither before, thanks so much! I was actually thinking of one of Johnny Cash's first records when I saw that for Belshazzar it was getting late. GPinkerton (talk) 18:48, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Nice! More at Cultural depictions of Belshazzar. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:22, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

administrators noticeboard/kurds

GP, I think you need to stop. Special:Diff/997046884: User:عمرو بن كلثوم is taken aback at GPinkerton's refutation of his claim that the phrase "Syrian Kurdistan" does not appear in the book (it does and is explained), and suddenly changes his mind on "Martin Dr Martin" the erstwhile worthy academic in respectable Paris, whose PhD-thesis-turned book was published by the University of Utrecht Press, but who in Act 2 now appears a radically changed character, a mean scholar [he's actually a professor] whose book is now merely personal opinion and tainted by association with the Center for Kurdish Studies (sounds very neutral) [emphasis original] which, in the space of less than twenty-four hours, has now become unspeakably biased and unusable for reasons that remain unexplained. is too much. Stop now, we're going to need to discuss further. —valereee (talk) 23:06, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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