Talk:Sephiroth (Final Fantasy)

Please read before editing:

• The descriptions in the Biography section concerning the events in Nibelheim are not a mistake, nor are they incorrect. The information detailed therein comes from Last Order: Final Fantasy VII and Before Crisis: Final Fantasy VII, which present the current canon version of these events.
• Any discussion of these matters should occur below.
• Be sure to read through the topics below, and if you want to ask a team of dedicated Final Fantasy editors for input, see Wikipedia:WikiProject Final Fantasy.
• Be sure to date any and all comments that you make in discussions, and please sign your comments using ~~~~.

Delisted good article

I've delisted this as a Good Article. The article provides very little real-world context, with an empty "Concept and creation" section underscoring this face, it is in need of verification for some statements, and the writing is not GA quality, so it fails Good Article Criteria.--Wafulz 18:34, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

little real-world context? IT'S A VIDEO GAME—Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.149.197.53 (talk • contribs)

There is a lot of "real-world" material out there, character development, inspiration and reception among others. See Link (The Legend of Zelda) and Dante (Devil May Cry) for example. -凶 03:08, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

This is an awful article. Articles on video game characters should be short summaries with most of the information devoted to real-world info like the game's developer or who designed the character. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.144.168.143 (talk • contribs) 02:40, 20 June 2007

IAWTC. --Potato dude42 05:00, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I think a good example when it comes to looking at the direction this article should be moving in is the article on Orion. Here's a proposition for the structure of this article based on that:

• A brief in-universe overview at the beginning
• A summary of the roles played by the character in its various video game incarnations (without going into unnecessary detail)
• A look at the designers, artists and writers that brought the character together (naming and linking as necessary) and the various inspirations behind the character's creation (in particular, the relationship to Kabbalah and Christian mythology would be best discussed here)
• Explorations of the academic interpretations of the role played by the character (where the bulk of the current article could be perhaps moved, given a bit of reworking to fit the new purpose; the philosophical evaluation of the Jenova/Sephiroth duality, for example, would be suitable for this section)
• A section on critical response and appreciation of the character in relevant culture (zomg fanboi response lool)
• An evaluation of its influence on future creative endeavour (such as Sephiroth's contribution to the success of the "long-haired pretty boy villain" character archetype)
• A final brief piece on references made to it in the wider cultural sphere (webcomics, cartoons, succeeding Video games etc.)

It would need fleshing out, but it would do for a start. 131.111.200.200 00:42, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

And where do you suggest we find this information? I find it hard to believe that the people interested in this Article are going to write this stuff up. His fanbase is a little...off-kilter70.17.0.102 (talk) 18:44, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

On another note, the Concept and creation section is merely his phisical appearence. The section either needs to be renamed or changed accordingly.Narcissus0 (talk) 21:40, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Should it be mentioned

That Clouds Omnislash spells out "I love Aeris" which is the reason you are no matter what allowed to use it in the absolute final battle.

Should this page be spoiler-tagged, or could we remove the picture of Sephiroth killing Aerith/Aeris? While the game has been out for nearly ten years now, there's still likely someone out there who doesn't know that fairly major plot point.

~ In addition, PLEASE review your facts and STOP changing Reverse Sephiroth to Rebirth. Square's official translation is Reverse, as seen in the Character collection packages and in every book created on the subject. It's easy to mistranslate, but you have to realize that it's "Reverse" and NOT "Rebirth."

    Why does Sephiroth have his own page when all the other FF characters are compiled                        together?

No i would say the reason you can use it in the final battle allowed to use it is cause it looks cool right? I mean what a way to end the game with Cloud dicing up Sephiroth with a massive combo like that. As an interesting note, the next attack will kill Sephiroth, it dosen't have to be Omnislash. the reason i know is cause when i was fighting him he attacked me first then i counter attacked (due to counter materia) which then killed him.65.124.8.131 16:24, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Omnislash doesn't spell out "I love Aeris". Where and when did you see that (if at all) anywhere? And you can just counter to kill him (not due to counter materia because I didn't have it equipped and he still did it). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.6.243.42 (talk) 22:51, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Sephiroth/Seymour-Kingdom Hearts

< Sorry...but I NEVER seen any sources confirming Seymour taking any spotlights in the game, let alone replacing Sephiroth. : < *removed*

Manifestation

I found this in FFWiki:

"==Manifestation==

All manifestations of Sephiroth seen throughout the game — excluding flashback sequences and his real body at the Northern Crater and Core of the World — are Jenova's entire body under his control and with his appearance (the forms of Sephiroth seen from the Shin-Ra headquarters to the cargo ship that left Junon, at Nibelheim, the Temple of the Ancients, City of the Ancients, and in the Whirlwind Maze at the Northern Crater) and astral projections (the illusions seen at the Northern Crater prior to Sephiroth calling forth Meteor).

The Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega Guide, littered with information directly from the creators of Final Fantasy VII, stated that Sephiroth "was not content to become a mere puppet and assumed position of her mind and will." This implies that Sephiroth's appearances stem from him invoking his appearance through Jenova's cells, which are also stated to have shapeshifting properties.

In the game, Cloud's final confrontation with Sephiroth is purely mental/spiritual and takes place in the Lifestream, a final battle of wills. Sephiroth is defeated, and his soul dissolves back into the Lifestream. Even so, Sephiroth's true fate was revealed in Advent Children, as he sought to continue his "mother's" ghastly mission.

"===Sephiroth, the New Evolution of Jenova=== Sephiroth became the newest stage of evolution for Jenova, and anything "Jenova" does in the game's present day is simply Sephiroth invoking his new powers(UOG - "the will of Jenova as a human is the result of it consuming Sephiroth's spirit"). When Sephiroth came into the picture, the minds of the two joined, and Sephiroth made himself the core of the viral entity that Jenova was, with his ambitions being fueled by its parasitic instincts and his desire to destroy all the humans he despised. Thus, his will manifested through Jenova's extensive psionic powers.

All of it is confirmed by the UOG, and it's official. Because of that I will post it in the main page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.21.246.36 (talk) 22:14, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

If no one have anything to say, I will post the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.21.246.36 (talk) 18:00, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Okay then. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.21.246.36 (talk) 02:47, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Although this would seem broadly accurate, it is not the case that the relation is entirely one of subjugation of one power by another. Both VII and Advent Children have shown that what we understand to be the Sephiroth that threatens the world is reliant on Jenova's physical presence in order for his influence to be tangible. At the same time, it's worth remembering that Sephiroth's Jenova "heritage" has a large influence on his personality during Crisis Core (which could be understood as the "consuming of Sephiroth's spirit" to which the UOG refers), and that this provides the inspiration for his resolve to travel to the Promised Land through the lifestream. To call the human Sephiroth the "Core" of this merger is to miss the point that the two develop a symbiotic relationship, wherein the distinction between them becomes incredibly fuzzy.

Rather than saying that Sephiroth becomes a sort of Jenova mkII through his acceptance of Jenova's influence, which is one abstract way of looking at it, the full truth might be more clearly expressed if we say instead that the result of the gradual synthesis of the human will of Sephiroth and the instinctively parasitic life-form Jenova is a separate and distinct personality that emerges from the constructive tension between these two aspects of the collective; a personality that is referred to as Sephiroth throughout the events of Meteorfall and the recurrance of Geostigma as a result of the relative familiarity of those who confront it with its human aspect. 131.111.200.200 23:46, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

This entire section is a bunch of speculation that, at least given the evidence presented, is not given nearly enough support to state it as matter-of-factly as it is. Taking a single sentence from one source, and extrapolating it into an entire theory about the basic mechanics of a game universe (or any universe), just doesn't work. As such, I'm deleting the section from the article until someone can either find hard evidence to prove all of the statements within it, or present it as a theory and then state alternate theories to counter it. Agharo 02:13, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

While indeed JENOVA and Sephiroth were interdependent and alternately manifestations of eachother, it is, in an artistic stroke of genius trademark to Final Fantasy, presented in a way which has to be experienced through the game to understand. You could, I suppose, publish within the article, what has been said by the creators and whatnot given proper sources, but there is most likely a more suitable area within the network of FFVII-related articles of the Wiki to put it, perhaps in a JENOVA article, or an article relating to the storyline of the game itsself. Sephiroth, whether he is a manifestation of J or vise vera, is well described in this article without. non-user guest dickersonal

Last Order retconed by Crisis Core

Well Crisis Core is being played, and it's been confirmed by players and myself, to have Last Order completely retconed.

Sephiroth is tossed into the Mako pit by Cloud. Tifa doesn't wake up to have that touching reunion with Cloud either.

I won't change the article or anything because I figure you editors should talk about it and discuss it first. However, I just thought you should know, Last Order has been retconed.66.76.60.163 19:19, 13 September 2007 (UTC)Makoeyes987

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAcAQhlqwbw

Here's a battle of the Nibelheim massacre from Crisis Core66.76.60.163 08:16, 16 September 2007 (UTC)Makoeyes987

Vandalism

User with IP address 70.56.129.74 made several nonsense edits about Stage6 usernames on this, and Cloud Strife's Wiki page - reverted Kakarott 04:33, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Someone seems to have added something about George Bush near the top of the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.41.253.66 (talk) 02:51, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Revamp

This article needs a major revamp. It is very messy, both grammatically and content wise. The introductory section is almost a page long by itself. Im working on revamping it in my sandbox editor. If wikipedians want to help, a development section needs to be written with citations. Actually citations would be great for everything as there are not too many here. This can be great article if we work together! : ) EDIT: So, if I get this straight, Last Order and Before Crisis are the canonical versions of the FFVII story now? My Sandbox - Noj r (talk) 05:53, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, according to the Official guide book that came with the Potion (77777 limited edition), AC, BC, CC and DC are all canonical. MythSearcher^talk 06:05, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I will leave Crisis Core out of the character biography because it has not been released in the states yet. It can be added later. EDIT: I have revamped the Sephiroth article, and I doubt many will object to its changes. The page was an absolute mess. It still needs lots of work.

• The "development and Appearances" subsection needs to be written and cited
• CITATIONS! This page is in desperate need of them, any help would be appreciated. I have already corrected some false statements and added citations to some.

Anyway, thanks for the help. - Noj r (talk) 06:59, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't really have time to go through the article for now, if you can list it here in a short bulletin form, I will see if the ultimania guide I mentioned above got what you want. (There is no cn tag in the article as well) or you can do so in my talk page, since I don't watch other character pages except Cloud, Tifa and Aerith. MythSearcher^talk 14:58, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for offering to help. The main problem with this artcle is the lack of real-world information on the character. If the Ultimania guide says anything about Tetsuya Nomura's role in designing Sephiroth, his inspirations, Sephiroth's development as a character in general, that would be great. I can take care of citing the character biography, but a development section needs to be made with real-world information and citations. If the ultimania guide doesnt say anything along those lines, then you dont have to worry about it. - Noj r (talk) 20:17, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Sephiroth-killing-aerith.jpg

Image:Sephiroth-killing-aerith.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 07:38, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Wings?

Is it known why Cloud and Sephiroth both have one wing? Dio Only Uses a Knife (talk) 05:58, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

From what I know, Cloud doesn't have a wing outside of Kingdom Hearts. ♣ Klptyzm ^{Chat wit' me § Contributions} ♣ 21:54, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

It's was used in Kingdom hearts to show that in a way, Sephiroth was a part of Cloud. His Left wing, was associated with Sephiroth's right wing. Ofcourse, only the 'dark' Cloud had a wing...and that was only in Kingdom Hearts.--http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Gamer_X_31 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gamer X 31 (talk • contribs) 17:04, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

If you play Crisis Core, you will understand that is was, in the case of sephiroth, genesis, and angeal, a result of their testing. In Kingdom Hearts, it is purely artistic that Cloud has one, as the tests he and Zack underwent after the supposed defeat of Sephiroth at Nibelhiem were of a different nature which is insinuated to have lacked the side-effects of previous tests (Angeal, Genesis, and Sephiroth are all results of different tests, apparently the wing thing was a repeated error resulted from an inability to heal flesh wounds which wasn't discovered until Angeal cut Genesis while intervening in a duel between sephiroth and genesis. it had been discovered and addressed by Shinra by the time Cloud and Zack were taken from Nibelhiem). Non-user guest dickersonal

Caption

In regard to the caption of the image on this article and on Cloud Strife. Let's get this straightened out. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 22:52, 5 February 2008 (UTC))

The anon's edits to Sephiroth and Cloud were mucho better. I've seen many articles format their articles in this form. I really don't understand why these should be counted as vandalism. Thoughts? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 23:09, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

—I would like to point out that User:CIreland has deemed the edits by both parties as not vandalism. If I may ask, what about the omission of the word "artwork" do you consider to be better. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 23:28, 5 February 2008 (UTC))

I beg your pardon? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 23:52, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

You stated that the edits done by the anon were better. The main difference was that the word "artwork" was removed from the caption. I'm asking if you could clarify what about that do you feel makes it better. I only ask so that the answer be listed for others. (Guyinblack25 ^talk) —Preceding comment was added at 00:02, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

The anon's version was this on Sephiroth and this on Cloud; IMO, the word "artwork" is just unnecessary and the designer's name should be wiki-linked because that follows the same formatting seen on several other articles, like the Dragon Ball, Bleach and Naruto-related ones. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 00:39, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I dont' see the need of wikilinking to Nomura as his name is wikiliked in the "designer" parametre. Whether "artwork" should be included or not is not really a big deal. I, personally, think it should be there, because it displays the artwork of Sephiroth and Cloud, not the in-game super deformed or FMV versions of them. In conclusion, I would like to say that there should be a concensus for these changes, even though they're minor, as a lot of other FF character articles have the first caption. The Prince (talk) 11:52, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Correct. These changes should apply for the other FF characters as well. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 15:05, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Given the number of FF characters and similar video game character articles, perhaps this discussion moved to the VG Project's talk page so a consensus can be reached. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 15:18, 6 February 2008 (UTC))

Whatever seems best I guess. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 05:07, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

GAN

I've failed this as it requires substantial rewrites to meet criteria.

• Lead - first paragraph is fine. Second paragraph should be reorganized, with the voice actors before the reception, and something on the conception, since it is not summarized.
• Concept and creation - needs expansion, and there are unsourced statements ("..and it is said that it can only be wielded by Sephiroth. ") et al
• Appearances - while the appearances in other media is a bit long, otherwise the length is fine. But it lacks any context to someone who hasn't played the game. I have no clue what's going on starting with "Notions of Sephiroth's apparent death are put into question"... wtf? What apparent death? See Master Chief (Halo) for an example of appearances.
• Musical themes - interesting, but full of random sources. Why does a fan creation on OCRemix merit mention?
• Reception - anything on merchandise? I would hope there is more on the character out there, but its decent.

--Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 01:36, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Combining appearances

Not all into one, of course, but just into Final Fantasy VII, Related Final Fantasy VII appearances, and Other appearances. The rest of the character profiles for FFVII have this format. The Cloud, Aerith, and Tifa articles work great, with Aerith's having a GA status; The Tifa and Cloud articles are both B-class. The Vincent and Zack articles are both Start status, but Zack is fairly new and Vincent's article just needs tons of work with out-of-universe context. Anyway, with a little condensing, the article will look cleaner and the DoC appearance wont have to be put under Appearances in other media. But before I started, I wanted the go-ahead from this article's editors, as this article is B-class and the change isn't exactly small, I guess. I could also try condensing the Other appearances section.WhiteArcticWolf (talk) 22:09, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Due to the lack of response, I'm going ahead and doing it. If someone dislikes it so much, then they can change it. The section still need some work, and I don't know much about his Before Crisis role, so I'll just mention what I know about it and leave it at that.WhiteArcticWolf (talk) 19:48, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Appearances

Final Fantasy VII was released in 1997. Crisis Core was released a decade later in 2007. Thus Sephiroth appeared in Crisis Core after appearing in Final Fantasy VII. The Appearances section currently does not reflect that. Kariteh (talk) 14:37, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

The release date and the fact that it is a prequel can be mentioned in the paragraphs, however that is no reason to tag the entire article as "in-universe" particulary after the major trimming that was done. Now since Sephiroth doesn't appear until mid-point in FF VII the current format serves better to explain his "apparent death", it would make no sense mentioning it in two different sections. - Caribbean~H.Q. 14:42, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Just because you have a different opinion doesn't mean the other opinion "makes no sense". The real world ordering is recommended by guidelines, specifically Wikipedia:Manual of Style (writing about fiction). This makes particularly more sense because Last Order and Crisis Core give us different accounts of the same fictional events. The current article tried to somehow reconcile the anime and the game, but it shouldn't. See this paragraph from the link:

For example, if a fictional TV detective loses a partner in the line of duty, taking an in-universe perspective will obscure whether this occured in the backstory, the pilot or the main series. If the partner died in the pilot, but is the subject of little-known prequel novels, then an in-universe perspective may describe the partner in excessive detail. If later episodes have events which suggest the dead partner never existed, this is impossible to describe from an in-universe perspective, and editors will have to try to explain away such continuity errors themselves, leading to original research.

Last Order and Crisis Core are two versions of the same fictions. They should be presented in the order in which they were released because there simply isn't any other way to do it correctly (we can't assume one of the two versions is "real" and the other is "false"; they're both fictional). Furthermore, while I hate to take other articles as examples to follow (because of Wikipedia:Other stuff exists), I would like to point out that even the Star Wars articles follow this logic and deal with the classic trilogy before the prequel trilogy. Kariteh (talk) 15:14, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

You are not understanding me, Crisis Core and Last Order are indeed different and they are separately descibed, my post was refering to repeating the incident as it occurs in Crisis Core and the original Final Fantasy VII twice since the incident is is virtually unchanged in both, its just a matter of working with the language which is something that I haven't done yet. - Caribbean~H.Q. 15:32, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Final Fantasy VII should be the first work described in the Appearances section. Crisis Core should be described after. Kariteh (talk) 15:34, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

If you see the failed GAN you will notice the problem with that, Sephiroth is kept misterious the entire first half of FF VII, mentiong his "apparent death" in the opening is incoherent. - Caribbean~H.Q. 15:37, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Sephiroth is kept mysterious at first, that's why the section should explain that he was kept mysterious at first. Then it can mention that a portable game released ten years later expanded on the character's background story. It's only incoherent if you describe things from an in-universe perspective. Kariteh (talk) 15:41, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Just mention at the beginning of the FFVII paragraph that Sephiroth was thought to have been killed or give a little background. Then, later in the Appearances section, describe Crisis Core, Last Order, and all of his other Compilation appearances. If it would make people happy, I'll go through and change it to mention that he was apparently killed. Then Crisis Core can be moved. If we did that, though, we'd also have to go back to the last format wherein there isn't an FFVII Film section, but a Compilation section just as all of the other FFVII characters have. It'd also be a place to put his DoC appearance; it's small, but it matters somewhat.WhiteArcticWolf (talk) 19:35, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Waait. Confusing sentence

"Aerith succeeds in summoning Holy, but Jenova, while in the appearance of Sephiroth, kills her before it can be activated. The white materia remains active, but unused. Later, Cloud procures the black materia, but is manipulated against his will into surrendering it to Sephiroth, who then summons Meteor and barricades himself inside Northern Crater, waiting for its arrival."

It just said that Jenova took that shape of Sephiroth and killed Aerith, but then it says he barricades himself?? This implies to me that after Areith was killed he actually went to the Northern Crater, then sealed himself. But am FMV shows (and implies) that the real Sephiroth was there the entire time. And I swear during the game one of the characters say something about it (its been a while since I've played the game)

Someone clarify this please in the article (and maybe a pic of him in the northern crater?)!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.221.194 (talk) 09:56, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Concept and creation thing

In the concept and creation section, it has a [citation needed] thing after "long sword, and it is said that it can only be wielded by Sephiroth."... I think it mentions that in the instruction booklet? --207.47.151.197 (talk) 00:24, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, you're right. I added the ref. Thanks for pointing that out. The Prince (talk) 08:53, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Spoilers

'Sephiroth kills Aerith in an iconic scene'. With pictures, too? Gee, thanks. Could someone who knows how to do this please put a spoiler tag up there? The big red 'Spoilers from the games plot' thingy? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.15.15.120 (talk) 23:57, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

We don't do spoiler tags. And, uh, it's such a famous spoiler that even non-gamers know it...also, it's been eleven years...—Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 00:20, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Try and be more welcoming, Urutapu. This person obviously doesn't know how Wikipedia works, and to get sarcastic remarks like this thrown in his/her face isn't helpful. Be more civil in your comments next time. Thanks. The Prince (talk) 08:42, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Ignoring the comment from Urutapu, thanks for clearing that up, Prince. It's evident that people not thoroughly aware of Wiki policies and workings aren't welcome here, even with good intent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.15.15.120 (talk) 22:57, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Reverse Sephiroth is correct

Reverse Sephiroth has been the official romanization for a very, very long time now - please stop changing it back to Rebirth. You may not like the name as much as Rebirth, but like the defunct Seraph Sephiroth, it's the correct way. Simply look at the FF Creatures lists, cards, etc. for proof. I have repeatedly sited various official works only to have them removed because someone doesn't want to accept it. --96.230.27.53 (talk) 23:45, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

As I suggested below, it's a matter of intent versus execution. (I'm not responsible for any of those edits.) The lack of katakana distinction between the phonemes for 'b', 'f', and 'v'; for 's' and 'th'; and imprecise transliterations of vowels in general is to blame. The official material may perpetuate the established translation to be consistent, but it makes little sense. Clearly the "Rebirth" and "Savior/Seraph" interpretations are more in line with the quasi-religious theme. In any case, I would refer to both interpretations when introducing them, and in later occurrences continue with your preferred interpretation for brevity's sake. Kind of like how one would use both a full name and its abbreviation. — Nahum Reduta [talk|contribs] 13:02, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Wiki is an encyclopedia, don't perpetuate false knowledge. You should only use the official name. Fandom names should only be mentioned once if extremely popular, but throughout the article, you should use the official name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.190.34.219 (talk) 18:03, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

"Safer"?

Wouldn't know where to find evidence, but could "Safer Sephiroth" be a mistranslation of "Savior Sephiroth"? It would seem to fit the angelic theme more appropriately, and is also not nearly as awkward. — Nahum Reduta [talk|contribs] 12:42, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Probably not. "Safer Sephiroth" is almost certainly a distortion of "Sefer Sephiroth", which is pronounced exactly the same, means "book of emanations" and is the title of a Kabbalistic work. —chaos5023 (talk) 20:26, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

The Character's Character

Did this page ever have a section for Sephiroth's personality and character? His motivations, background? I think it should have one. (Momus (talk) 19:10, 13 January 2009 (UTC))

It's original research, so ultimately it shouldn't. The Prince (talk) 21:13, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

"Distinguishing Genuine Sephiroth" section: Dispute

First of all, my choice on the tag was only because I could not find another tag that properly explained the issue; if there is one, then I'd appreciate it if someone could replace that current tag with a more appropriate one. Now, onto the issue. The section itself is a basic plot summary, and revolves soley around his clones. A separate section devoted to part of the game, and more of a minor issue at that, is not needed and violates Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Article guidelines#Inappropriate content. The fifth on the list states that Excessive fictional details should be avoided, meaning that the plot summary should explain that character's role in the game, but not go beyond that. Though this does not go along with any guideline, Cloud Strife and Aerith Gainsborough follow that same set-up and are the only GA FFVII character pages. They have no other section about Cloud's identity crisis or Aerith's state after Zack's death which leads to some feelings for Cloud, and those are both key points within the game series.

However, I am not entirely opposed to removing all of the information. I'm opposed to having a section holding only that information. I believe that the section could be properly merged into the plot summary (with some editing, of course), and this article is in great need of more sourcing. I do apologize for removing that content soon after it was added, though. I probably should have tried more to merge it then outright remove it. WhiteArcticWolf (talk) 22:07, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay in my response. I was engaged in other affairs. When I finished the message I decided to publish here, I noticed that Wikipedia Administrator Sephiroth BCR has deleted the disputed contents, accusing us for publishing Original Research and Unsourced Fancruft. I contacted him and politely explained to him that according to the code of conduct, the correct way of resolving such disputes is to challenge them by appropriate tags like {{Unsourced}} and so on. He in turn undid my message, "claiming that he does not have to listen to such nonsense", thus insulting us all.

I'm afraid because he is an Administrator we cannot oppose him or he will abuse his administrative powers to harass us both. Fleet Command (talk) 19:55, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

The entire section is original research. You're synthesizing plot details without source, which is explicitly not allowed per WP:NOR. On top of that, that section would be unnecessary in any case as undue weight on the plot details of one game he's involved in. Do not add the section back in. Furthermore, I reverted your message because you listed a ridiculous list of demands that I have no obligation whatsoever to follow. Trying to be courteous instead of listing inane demands will help your interactions with others in the future. — sephiroth bcr ^(converse) 20:00, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Greetings, my dear friend. Indeed, you are unprecedented.

• Oh, were they so faulty? Then why did you not follow the instructions of WP:Notability? Did you alert me? Did you tagged them with appropriate templates, such as {{OR}}, {{Original research}}, {{unsourced}} or {{fact}}? Did you?

• Was I not really courteous? Is it uncourteous to greet you first? Is it uncourteous to call you "Fellow Wikipedian" or call you with full name? Beyond all, is it uncourteous to mind your reputation and ask you to undo your misbehavior before anyone takes notice? Or did I call you names? Did I employ any obsene word? Did I even use colloqual language? Indeed, if I was really impolite, why would you resort to deleting my message by Undoing it?

• Let us assume that my demands (to use {{OR}}, {{Original research}}, {{unsourced}} or {{fact}}, as stated in their help documents) were indeed mad. Could you not have kindly responded "I'm afraid your requests are so and so"? Do you think it is indeed courteous to delete my message while citing it: "Reverted 2 edits by FleetCommand; Don't have to listen to this nonsense. using TW"?

Well then, my friend. I'm leaving you, your beloved article and our dear fellow Wikipedian WhiteArcticWolf alone. From now on, I'm going to forget any grudge towards you. If I have really been uncourteous, then I beg your forgiveness. Take care, Sephiroth BCR. Best wishes, Fleet Command (talk) 21:37, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

WP:BOLD, WP:NOT#BURO, WP:IAR. I don't have to follow your silly procedure to remove anything; if I believe it to be in violation of our policies and guidelines, I can remove the material. It has nothing to do with me being an administrator: any user can do this. And WP:NOTE has nothing to do with article content. Nothing. Its only purpose is to determine the suitable of subjects to have articles and nothing more. As for your discourteous comments to me, you felt suited to characterize my edits as "misconduct" and "indequate" and your tone was extremely condescending. I'm not a random new user that needs everything enunciated for them. Comment in a professional manner without the excessive condescension. Furthermore, you demanded that I revert my edits and threatened me with arbitration. That's a threat, not any type of civil discourse whatsoever. I don't have to entertain nonsense like that on my talk page, and it's my discretion to host whatever conversations I want on it per WP:TALK. — sephiroth bcr ^(converse) 21:46, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

FleetCommand, ff you feel that an administrator is abusing their powers then you can report them. However, I feel that it is within Sephiroth BCR's duties to do such a thing. Disputes seem to usually be about biased information (not fictional material). The dispute occured after I removed material, and there really wasn't much to dispute over. I was within my boundaries in removing your information, just as it is within his. Paragraphs are removed all the time (just recently I did so). Expecting to tag every trivia section, non-notable character section, etc, that isn't vital to the article is silly.

As for accusing me...I was the one who removed it in the first place and believe Sephiroth BCR is correct. I'e seen him around the Anime and Manga wikiproject (which I frequent), where he has done some great contributions. I've never seen him abuse his powers, and he's always acted pretty nicely. I don't see how he would harass either of us, and I do believe your comments on my talk page fall under that category anyway. WhiteArcticWolf (talk) 20:08, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm very sorry to have written with such an angry tone with you, WhiteArcticWolf. Although, please do note that I kept it quiet and did as much as I could to maintain your reputation, until now which you yourself made it public. Please understand that your action was incredibly offending. Do you not understand that I am capable of being as much (and even much more) sensitive than you are? Exterminating what I passionately spent hours to write? For days I was not calm enough to follow up with an apology message. Although, right now, you look like an angel in comparision to our dear Administrator. So be it: I was an animal. I am sorry. Requesting forgiveness.

Nonetheless, I was here in good faith, hoping to improve an article pertaining to a masterpiece which was on the verge of failing notability. I sought to improve an article yet instead of simply telling me off, you did what is analogous to slaping me across the face. Have fun with your beloved article. I'm not editing it anymore.

As for Sephiroth BCR, I was very polite to him. I spoke with reason to him and recommended the same resolution that I did to you. Yet he reverts my message in his talk page, citing: "(Reverted 2 edits by FleetCommand; Don't have to listen to this nonsense. using TW)". Why erasing the message while he could have used it as a piece of evidence? With all due respect, I do not feel that it is within Sephiroth BCR's duties to do such a thing as turning the Wikipedia into an Encyclopedia which only you two can edit.

Due to having Administrative privileges, he can prevent me from even giving him the civil Option #3 of resolving our dispute. I'm not going to request an arbiteration right now or take any other hostile action. But discresion is the better part of valor. Right now, I have taken screenshots from discussion pages, his talk page and corresponding history logs and have ensured that everything is readable. I'm digitally signing all these material for better value as evidence. I have also created local copies of Arbiteration references, including their email addressing and mailing list. I'm leaving you, him and your beloved article alone. But I'll keep these pieces of evidence in case you guys didn't leave me alone.

So, let there be peace between use. Best wishes, Fleet Command (talk) 21:37, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

I am sorry for actually stating so, but it felt degrading and rude. I myself made it public that I shouldn't have removed the content without talking to you and should have tried more to edit them. I've apologized. I understand that (even if it was not considered misconduct) I hadn't acted correctly. I don't want either of is to share the blame by ourselves, because to an extent we are both at fault for the entire situation. So, yes, was I did was respectful on a more human level, and I do deeply regret not informing you or brining it up on the talk page first. I can understand your reaction, and don't feel the need to take any action against it. Overall, the reaction wasn't incredibly bad either, considering how others can act incredibly bad. As for his reasoning for removing it, I cannot say it was the best way to phrase it, and it probably would have been better to reply and explain.

I don't want there to be any more of this dispute, either, and I am fine with leaving things as they once were. Good luck with the evidence and any future editing. I rather we not hold anything against each other, too. WhiteArcticWolf (talk) 22:32, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

Sephiroth (Final Fantasy) → Sephiroth — Per my arguments at Talk:Sephiroth, this article is the primary topic users are likely to be searching for when entering "Sephiroth" into Wikipedia, and should hence be the main article with a hat note to Sephirot, rather than having Sephiroth as a dab page as at present. —me_and 12:40, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

• Support. Per Wikipedia:Disambiguation, a disambiguation page is unnecessary when there are only two uses (and especially so when only one of the uses is at the ambiguous title). Powers ^T 13:20, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
• Support unless someone can provide evidence that a person typing Sepiroth is more likely to be mispelling Speirot than looking for the character it seems like an easy case.--76.66.180.54 (talk) 06:53, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Sephiroth is not a misspelling of Sephirot, it is an alternate transliteration, and a very common one (the Ashkenazic one, to be precise). Because the Ashkenazic transliteration was the most accessible one in Western Europe in the Middle Ages, nearly the entire corpus of Western occultism that references the sephirot spells the word "sephiroth". Which is how the FF7 developers wound up using the word, since random out-of-context words from Western occultism are totally cool in Japan. —chaos5023 (talk) 16:23, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• Comment (leaning towards support) – Sephiroth is the plural of Sephirot, but the fact that we have nothing on the Judaism aspect compels me to support moving the plural to the eponymous FF7 antagonist. –MuZemike 08:04, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Are you sure Sephirot is singular? The article treats it as plural. Powers ^T 14:05, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
    • They're both plural. Sephiroth and sephirot are different transliterations of the same word. Sephirah is the singular. —chaos5023 (talk) 16:08, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• Weak no move. (I'm unsure what the opposite of support is). I understand the rational that you give people what they are looking for but I still feel that the more encyclopedic topic should be the primary and that the pop-culture should give way to the historically notable. Joe407 (talk) 13:41, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
• Violent oppose. The idea of displacing the Kabbalistic concept in favor of a pop culture character named in an offhand reference to it nauseates me. —chaos5023 (talk) 16:08, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

  Such a move is simply acknowledging that the majority of Wikipedia users will be looking for the pop culture character, not the Kabbalistic concept. That may indeed be nauseating, but to me the role of Wikipedia is to be dispassionate in all things. Regardless of what we'd like, most users will be looking for the FF7 character, and it is not for us as editors to claim their desires are invalid. —me_and 20:50, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

  I had to step away from this one for a couple days, recognizing that argumentum ab nauseam, as I previously employed, and "over my broken, charred, smoking dead body" are not greatly valid debate points. Let me state up front that I absolutely believe that proponents of this move are doing no more than you say: attempting to apply WP:PRIMARYTOPIC as written, in good faith. Any ire that bleeds through my text is something I wish to reserve for the situation, not its participants. So, okay, actual points:

  1. I'm not convinced that Sephiroth (Final Fantasy) as a destination so greatly exceeds that of Sephirot (Kabbalah) as to support invoking WP:PRIMARYTOPIC; Jappalang's research on this is heartening. Even if WP:PRIMARYTOPIC were appropriate, though, it's a guideline that's meant to be applied with some measure of common sense, regarding which see following points.
  2. To execute this move would be an example of systemic bias so egregious as to be laughable. This is, quite frankly, the kind of thing that Wikipedia does that gets it humiliated in the press — pushing aside a concept with millennia of history behind it, under a spelling that's been the predominant English transliteration for most of the time that there has been a language identifiable as English, in favor of a video game character named, for no particular reason, after that concept in 1997. It would be like moving Emperor Palpatine to Emperor and moving the current article to Emperor (political office) (which WP:PRIMARYTOPIC may in fact call for, as written).
  3. As Jappalang notes, and as illustrated by previous, this would also be an over-the-top example of WP:RECENTISM.
  4. The fact that WP:PRIMARYTOPIC could be interpreted as calling for this result at all means, to me, that something is deeply wrong with WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, and I presently intend to pursue this.
  5. I feel absolutely comfortable invoking WP:IAR to override WP:PRIMARYTOPIC in this case. The reason to ignore all rules is to build a better encyclopedia, and I absolutely believe that while a better pop culture database might point you to Sephiroth (Final Fantasy) in preference to Sephirot (Kabbalah), a better encyclopedia will not.

  So, yeah. I really don't think we should do this one. :) —chaos5023 (talk) 16:35, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

  I'll answer your points in turn, although first of all, thanks for tackling the arguments here so well.

  1. I personally do think WP:PRIMARYTOPIC applies here. Looking at actual hits using toolserver.org, Sephiroth (Final Fantasy) sees considerably more traffic than Sephirot, about double and occasionally up to about triple the numbers.
  2. Yes, this is clearly an example of WP:BIAS. That's merely an observation of Wikipedia, though, not a policy, and bias need only be avoided when it threatens NPOV; one does not necessarily imply the other.
  3. Yes, this is clearly also an example of WP:RECENTISM. Again, that's just an observation of Wikipedia, and not in and of itself a policy. If we apply primarytopic now, the cost of moving the articles around if and when the religious concept is more popular is minimal.
  4. I disagree with your interpretation of primarytopic, but that's a discussion to have on Wikipedia talk:Disambiguation.
  5. Talking about WP:IAR, everything gets that much more interesting. Essentially, we're asking what's better for the encyclopaedia: to give users the information they're probably after with the minimum of effort, or to try to give the impression Wikipedia is more high-brow than perhaps it is/to educate users a little in passing/to emulate the values behind traditional encyclopaedias.

  This last point is the one closest to swaying me, and I'm still not sure exactly what I think results in the better Wikipedia. The hits categorically show the FF7 character being of more interest to Wikipedia users than the religious concept, and part of me thinks we should give users what they're after. On the other hand, giving priority to the concept seems more encyclopaedic in the traditional sense to me than than letting FF7 take the fore, and that sort of decision may even change what people do look for on Wikipedia in the long run.

  —me_and 19:54, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

  Since you mention policy vs. essays a couple times, I'll mention here that WP:PRIMARYTOPIC is not policy, it's a guideline. This isn't to say guidelines lack weight, but they do not have the force of policy. While WP:BIAS is an essay, there is considerable consensus across Wikipedia that systemic bias should be avoided when possible, as represented by things like the existence of WP:WikiProject Countering systemic bias. (And WP:CONSENSUS, on the other hand, is policy.) —chaos5023 (talk) 21:25, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

  Ah, I hadn't realised PrimaryTopic isn't policy. Thanks for pointing that out. —me_and 10:27, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose: Sephiroth is the plural of another heavily used Sephardic transliteration (the other is Sepirot) [corrected per Chaos5023's explanation below]. Compared to 47,000 hits on Google Books for 'Sepiroth -"final fantasy"',(http://www.google.com/search?sclient=psy&hl=en&safe=off&tbo=1&tbs=bks%3A1&q=sephiroth+-"final+fantasy"&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&pws=0 — copy and paste, the markup here refuses to acknowledge the "+-") the fictional character garnered 224 hits.[1] On Google Scholar, this is 1,850 (http://scholar.google.com.sg/scholar?hl=en&q=sephiroth+-"final+fantasy"&btnG=Search&as_sdt=2000&as_ylo=&as_vis=0&pws=0) vs 49[2]. Academic and long-time focus remains on the religious terminology rather than the fictional character that has a video game following rather than wide community recognition. A simple look through on Google search reveals much of the hits are on fansites/forums that are temporal in nature (WP:RECENTISM). Cutting down the fan chatter reveals 905,000 for the fictional video game character (http://www.google.com.sg/#hl=en&safe=off&biw=1680&bih=868&q=sephiroth+("final+fantasy"+OR+"FF")&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=f2f2a30b21942d5f&pws=0) and 1,090,000 on Sephiroth terminology not associated with him.(http://www.google.com.sg/#hl=en&safe=off&biw=1680&bih=868&q=sephiroth+-%22final+fantasy%22+-%22FF%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=2335a0dbc2b7e1f8) Calling for a long-standing term to be re-directed to a video game character of around 10 years is WP:RECENTISM (if anything, Sephiroth should redirected to Sepirot with a hatnote in the religious term's article to direct those looking for the character to this article). Jappalang (talk) 22:47, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

  If there's no consensus for this move, I'd certainly support redirecting Sephiroth to Sephirot with a hat note to Sephiroth (Final Fantasy), as you describe. —me_and 23:12, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

  I support the current dab setup on Sephiroth, really. Sephirot is now, with the "downfall" of Ashkenazic transliteration in favor of Israeli-driven Sephardic transliteration, generally considered the "best" transliteration of the word, so between that and the search destination argument, I think it's vaguely appropriate to route people coming on the word the way it's being done presently. —chaos5023 (talk) 16:52, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

  Noting here again, just for the record, that Sephiroth is not the plural of Sephirot; they are the same word, in two different transliterations. Sephirah is the singular of this word. —chaos5023 (talk) 23:32, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

  Looking at toolserver.org, regardless of what Google says, Sephiroth (Final Fantasy) has been consistently getting around twice as many hits as Sephirot. —me_and 20:38, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

  Looking at the number of hits of a Wikipedia article is meaningless (see also WP:POPULARPAGE). WP:RECENTISM and fanboy-ism makes such figures unreliable gauges of what the world views as the primary usage of a term. Jappalang (talk) 04:51, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

  I disagree. Due to the current dab setup, any hits for one article are almost certainly going to be for people looking for that article, and the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC guideline refers to "the subject being sought when a reader enters that term in the Search box", not what the general world view of the primary usage is. You may want to ignore PrimaryTopic, but given that guideline, I don't think these numbers are "meaningless". —me_and 10:27, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose because the Sephiroth page is now rightfully a disambiguation page differentiating between the two meanings. Sephirot (Kabbalah) is surely as notable as any latter-day shtick! IZAK (talk) 08:23, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

  On what grounds do you assert that Sephiroth is rightfully a disambiguation page? The core of this discussion is that Sephiroth should not be a disambiguation page, and should instead point directly to Sephiroth (Final Fantasy). —me_and 12:12, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

• Comment there is a related move at Talk:Sephirot (Kabbalah). 76.66.203.138 (talk) 14:25, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose To even consider giving a character in a video game (not even the protagonist!) preference over an important religious concept is depressing. Clear case of Wikipedia's systemic bias. --JaGa^talk 16:25, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

• Neutral Sorry, I thought the intention was to have Sephiroth as the primary and Sephirot redirect to it, leaving Sephirot (Kabbalah) where it is. But now there's the question of whether the alternate spelling should redirect to Sephirot or be replaced by the FF article. I tend to support this move, but there are good arguments against, so I'm going Swiss. --JaGa^talk 23:29, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

• Comment we could do this, with a "not to be confused" template on each:

Sephiroth (Final Fantasy) → Sephiroth

Sephirot (Kabbalah) → Sephirot

--JaGa^talk 16:30, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

That's precisely what's being proposed, isn't it? Powers ^T 16:43, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Between this proposal and the one on Sephirot (Kabbalah), yes, it is. I believe this should be considered a "support" !vote. :) —chaos5023 (talk) 16:53, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

That's exactly my intention. I'd have grouped the move suggestions, but Sephirot (Kabbalah) was just Sephirot at time of this move proposal; IZAK moved it earlier today, and I proposed moving it back. —me_and 17:38, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Although I'm very reluctant to claim we should assume this should be seen as a support !vote since JaGa voted oppose just above :) —me_and 17:59, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Oh, yeah, I see that now. I guess it's just a comment like it says on the label, then. :) —chaos5023 (talk) 19:21, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

I think the status quo is fine. But in favour of a move: the game character gets 15x more hits.[3] [4]. Rd232 ^talk 21:06, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose to avoid recentism and systemic bias in our choice of preferences. The comparative internet savvy-ness of FF fans over Kabbalists shouldn't overrule common sense. Unless and until Final Fantasy bypasses the Kabbalah in its overall cultural impact and scale in global human knowledge, the default target should be the Kabbalah concept. See also the discussion on Java here.--Carwil (talk) 21:16, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Our naming guidelines are based on taking readers to what they're most likely seeking, not based on the relative importance of the articles in question. Powers ^T 13:31, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
    • Wikipedia aspires to be a universal reference tool for all humanity, not just for whatever set of internet searchers currently exist (Readers≠Internet searchers). To do so we have to confront and deal with the difference between the two. See the essay Wikipedia:Systemic bias.--Carwil (talk) 13:46, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
      • The systemic bias document applies to article content, not article naming. For article naming, our primary metric has always been what do our readers want to see when they type in this title? Powers ^T 15:35, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose Sephiroth of Final Fantasy is derivative of the kabbalistic Sephirot. It seems backwards that the video game reference would trump the original source. Perhaps in this case, since there is a direct collision (where there isn't one with Sefirot and Sephirot), there should be a disambiguation page? --Xtraeme (talk) 01:08, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose - Sepherot and Sepheroth are both equally common transliterations of the Hebrew word. The Final Fantasy character is not at all the most common reason for searching for the term. Yworo (talk) 01:27, 24 November 2010 (UTC)