Talk:Witold Pilecki: Difference between revisions
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::*"Regardless of the discrepancies concerning the place and circumstances of his arrest, all versions have one common element, and on the basis of this element historians (and not only them) decided that Pilecki let Germans capture him with the purpose of reaching Auschwitz. As a result of later interpretations and simplifications, it has been commonly assumed that Pilecki was a 'volunteer to Auschwitz'.{{pb}} "It is difficult to determine the author of this expression. In 1976, it appeared in the title of the French edition of Garliński’s book (''Volontaire pour Auschwitz: La Résistance organizée à l’intérieur du camp''). In Poland, the definition was popularised by Wincenty Gawron, who entitled his memoirs from the camp (in a large measure devoted also to Pilecki) ''Volunteer to Auschwitz''. It was soon borrowed by Pilecki’s biographers. The neat and meaningful expression has thus become established due to the publications of Adam Cyra (''Volunteer to Auschwitz'', 2000) and Marco Patricelli (''Il Volontario'', Rome 2010) and ''The Auschwitz Volunteer: Beyond Bravery'' (2012).47 It resulted from the tendency to present people and events in a simplified way, from insufficient source criticism or its complete absence and from failure to notice contradictions in factual documents. As a consequence, in the case of the 'volunteer to Auschwitz', the commonly used expression only partially corresponds with the facts" (pp. 293–294). |
::*"Regardless of the discrepancies concerning the place and circumstances of his arrest, all versions have one common element, and on the basis of this element historians (and not only them) decided that Pilecki let Germans capture him with the purpose of reaching Auschwitz. As a result of later interpretations and simplifications, it has been commonly assumed that Pilecki was a 'volunteer to Auschwitz'.{{pb}} "It is difficult to determine the author of this expression. In 1976, it appeared in the title of the French edition of Garliński’s book (''Volontaire pour Auschwitz: La Résistance organizée à l’intérieur du camp''). In Poland, the definition was popularised by Wincenty Gawron, who entitled his memoirs from the camp (in a large measure devoted also to Pilecki) ''Volunteer to Auschwitz''. It was soon borrowed by Pilecki’s biographers. The neat and meaningful expression has thus become established due to the publications of Adam Cyra (''Volunteer to Auschwitz'', 2000) and Marco Patricelli (''Il Volontario'', Rome 2010) and ''The Auschwitz Volunteer: Beyond Bravery'' (2012).47 It resulted from the tendency to present people and events in a simplified way, from insufficient source criticism or its complete absence and from failure to notice contradictions in factual documents. As a consequence, in the case of the 'volunteer to Auschwitz', the commonly used expression only partially corresponds with the facts" (pp. 293–294). |
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:: [[User:SlimVirgin|SarahSV]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</sup></small> 07:04, 15 February 2021 (UTC) |
:: [[User:SlimVirgin|SarahSV]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</sup></small> 07:04, 15 February 2021 (UTC) |
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=== [[WP:APLRS]] v2 === |
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I undid many of Volunteer Marek's changes as they removed academic sources, removed page numbers, and added sources that are impossible to verify (no page numbers) as well as failing [[WP:APLRS]]. In particular: |
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# Snyder in the New York Times: a book review of a non-academic book. Is not a scholarly source. |
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# ''Il volontario'': A non-English title, APLRS says English titles should be preferred and they are available here. Further, this is a mass market non-scholarly book. |
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# ''Rising '44: "The Battle for Warsaw"'': Again a mass market book, non-scholarly. Also lacking page numbers. |
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# Tchorek in The Times: Not a scholarly source. |
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# ''Escaping Hell: The Story of a Polish Underground Officer in Auschwitz and Buchenwald'': Non-scholarly, memoirs of a Polish officer. |
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# Garliński 1975: Old source, lacking page number so impossible to verify. |
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# ''"The Auschwitz Volunteer: Beyond Bravery'': Published by [[Aquila Polonica]], not a scholarly source. |
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Volunteer Marek, please gain clear consensus on compliance before putting more material that is not APLRS.--[[User:Bob not snob|Bob not snob]] ([[User talk:Bob not snob|talk]]) 07:32, 15 February 2021 (UTC) |
Revision as of 07:32, 15 February 2021
![]() | Witold Pilecki is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed. | |||||||||||||||||||||
![]() | This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on January 24, 2005. | |||||||||||||||||||||
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Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
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Stub?
this page could do with more, but it doesn't seem to be a stub any more since it covers his life and greatest deeds. What's missing? Can we delete the stub notice? 08:00, 2004 Jul 22 (UTC) (no comment will be taken as agreement :-)
- I am just a perfectionist, so I tend to leave big stubs everywhere, bit I guess you are right, this is not that stubbish now. If you have time, do browse the external links and add some more info though, they still have some interesting details. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 08:40, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)
He was a cool man! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.191.12.251 (talk) 19:20, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
Witold Pilecki in Art and Media
No film yet? Inmate 4859 by Swedish rock band Sabaton concerns Pilecki's exploits in Auchwitz. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rodnebb (talk • contribs) 10:28, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
References and peer review
This needs references. Any other ideas for improvement before I submit this to Wikipedia:Peer review and eventually Wikipedia:Featured article candidates? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 23:06, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- I think it can make it. It is well written, very interesting, and featured article don't have to be very long. Witold already has over 2 screens, which make it long enough IMHO. So, are you up to putting finishing touches on it? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 12:59, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Some questions:
1. Could you provide IPA pronunciation for Witold Pilecki's name?
2. What is the Russian spelling of "Oloniec"?
- No idea. I have seen English spelling Oluniec as well. I believe text from Polish sources is most correct and so I chose Ołoniec.
3. Is "Jozef Pilsudski" correct? Any relation to the Marshal?
- Ops, my (?) mistake. Jozef Pilecki.
4. What is "primary trading school" in the original Polish? "Podstawowa szkola zawodowa"? What is it?
- Szkola Handlowa w Wilnie in Polish. I doubt English term is much valid, but considering the age Witold graduated (13-14 years) it looks like a type of primary school.
5. What were the "commandos" ("kommandos"?) at Auschwitz?
- Ummm. Who do you mean, exatly? I wrote about Cichociemni's only, and I can't find any mentions of commandos in Auschwitz in that article (of course, many commandos were imprisoned there, but this is another article, I believe).
6. "night of April 26 and 28th": do you mean "26th and 27th"?
- Yes, fixed.
7. What is the original Polish of "Great Bastion of Warsaw"?
- I am not sure, it comes from English source only.
8. Is the Polish original "Wiezienie rakowieckie"? What does "rakowieckie" refer to?
- In Polish orginal, "więzienie mokotowskie". Englis sources mention "Rakowiecka prison". I believe the terms refer to the same place and the second name is more popular?
9. Why wasn't I able to get these questions to stay on your user page? Logologist 09:02, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- No idea. Wiki has been acting a bit laggy past 2 days, maybe it some engine fault? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:10, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Kommandos
You write: "At Auschwitz, while working in various kommandos and surviving pneumonia..." A "kommando" would seem to be some kind of organization or work detail. I would, however, keep the wording as it currently exists. Interesting article! Logologist 23:40, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- AFAIK it is German word, meaning "team" or something similar. Pibwl ←« 17:24, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
This is true, it is mentioned many times in Primo Levi's : If This is a Man. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.192.127.151 (talk) 02:56, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
Two points on translation
Rendering Krzyż Walecznych as "Cross of the Valorous" is, in my judgment, an example of excessive metaphrasis ("literality"). A more proper English equivalent would be "Cross of Valor."
"Prusy Army," which I gather in the Polish original reads "Wojsko Prusy," is an example of the opposite phenomenon: inappropriate paraphrase. I am confident that, in a competently edited English-language history, this military unit would appear (metaphrastically) as "Army Prusy." Logologist 20:07, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- During September Camapaing, Polish forces were organised into many 'Armia (Regional name goes here)' units, like 'Armia Prusy' (not 'wojsko'). I also think that better translation would be 'Army (name)'. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 23:34, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- As to the 1939 Armies - we've started similar discussion at Wikipedia:WikiProject Polish Army. As to the Krzyż Walecznych - for me Cross of Valor is too ambiguous. It might refer to: Krzyż Walecznych, Krzyż za Odwagę, Medal za Odwagę, Za Dzielność and Krzyż za Męstwo - all were military decorations used on Polish lands (although most of them in tsarist times). I'd leave it as it is, without making it too easy to read and too difficult to distinguish from the rest. Or, alternatively, we could simply leave it without any translation. Halibutt 02:23, Dec 30, 2004 (UTC)
Second Corps
Why is Poland's "Drugi Korpus" rendered on the Wikipedia as "2nd Polish Corps" instead of--as seems to me more accurate--"Polish 2nd Corps"? Logologist 01:27, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Captions
I think it would remove a certain cut-and-paste quality, if fresh captions could be made for three photos:
1. Gate to Auschwitz Concentration Camp (1941), with German motto: "Work liberates."
2. Auschwitz Concentration Camp photos of Pilecki.
3. Photos of Pilecki from Warsaw's Mokotow Prison (1947).
Logologist 08:20, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
To elope
Rich Farmbrough is right: "eloped" can mean running away to get married. It can also, in a second, equally valid sense, mean simply "to run away; escape; abscond." It was in the latter meaning that I wanted to use "elope" in this article, to avoid verbal repetitiveness. As it was, I used "escape" twice within the span of four sentences. Unfamiliarity with a meaning is not synonymous with the meaning's illegitimacy (the latter word not to be confused with "bastardy"!). And an unfamiliar application can sometimes breathe a useful whimsy into a text. Logologist 04:43, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Style isn't always easy! Websters says "To run away, or escape privately, from the place or station to which one is bound by duty; said especially of..." so I would avoid elope. Abscond implies wrong doing, as does absquatulate, which is also obscure. Somtimes repetition is best. I have changed the first occurance of escape to "break out", what do you think? (Change it back if you like.) Good article by the way. Rich Farmbrough 13:14, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
"Break out" does read well. Thanks for the suggestion. Logologist 18:57, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Congratulations
on well-deserved Featured Article recognition today. Logologist 04:41, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- One of the most interesting feature articles ive read, esp the stuff about the ZOW. The bellman 04:52, 2005 Jan 24 (UTC)
Wikiquote?
- Great article, thank you very much. Is it OK that the wikiquote link points to an empty page? BACbKA 06:37, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- sorry for interfeering with this nicely laid out discussion page... but why is there a link to wikiquote from this article? There don't seem to be any quotes from pilecki there!
Good point, fixed (added some quotes). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 10:56, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Further Congrats and Vandal Report
Excellent work! His story deserved to be told a long time ago.
There is a vandal who has been adding lines about Pilecki being a pedophile. Someone else has been reverting to the unvandalized version, but the vandal may be back. I add this article to my watclist so I can keep an eye out, but I don't know how to revert to earlier versions.
Is there any way to appeal to the Wiki staff to block the vandal's IP address?
- Try WP:ViP. BTW, would you like to form a user account? Sam Spade (talk · contribs) 09:55, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)ou considered adding a link to Norman
I too want to congratulate you all on such a superb and entertaining and colorful article. What a beautiful job and excellently done. Bravo to all!WHEELER 14:25, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Congratulations to all involved in putting this excellent article together, have you considered adding Warsaw Uprising in "see also" I know it is linked in the text. Norman Davies newly published '"Rising '44 : the battle for Warsaw": Norman Davies: Viking Books, 2004.'or 2004: Rising '44. The Battle for Warsaw. London: Pan Books. ISBN 0-333-90568-7 in this work Davies highlights the lack of support for the Polish resistance shown in this article re; liberation of Auschwitz "British authorities refused the Home Army air support". The importance of this storey cannot be underestimated, this is possibly seen in the despicable vandal attackNigel Savage 06:33, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Personal life, wife, children?
There is no mention in the article about him being married, yet there is a picture of his widow's tombstone. I believe that a paragraph would be warranted regarding his wife, whether or not he had any children, and what became of them. -- James Teterenko (talk) 20:23, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Tnx for the note, it should be covered now. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 13:28, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Related Article: Rotmistrz
I don't know how to properly pluralize rotmistrz. I used "rotamasters" in the article when I started a section on notable holders of the rank. I have Pilecki for the modern era --- maybe someone conversant in Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth history knows of a few medieval guys to put in the list?--Jpbrenna 00:27, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Michal Grocholski, Prokop Sieniawski, Franciszek Sebastian Lubomirski and Zygmunt Szendzielarz (modern era)--Emax 00:48, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)
Disambiguation
The link to Murnau should be disambiguated to point to Murnau am Staffelsee, since Murnau itself is a disambiguation page. -- Dominus 19:21, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Tnx for the note, fixed. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 15:55, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Escape from Auschwitz conflicts with Cyrankiewicz
The Józef_Cyrankiewicz article says that Pilecki escaped by faking Typhus. This one says that he overpowered a guard at a bakery. Am I missing something?--Medicmann 20:17, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
- Probably one is incorrect. It has been close to a year since I read stuff on it and wrote the article. IIRC the bakery is the correct version, and the typhus may be a failed attempt - but sb needs to go over the sources. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 21:28, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
Suggestions
- The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program. They may or may not be accurate for the article in question (due to possible javascript errors/uniqueness of articles). If the following suggestions are completely incorrect about the article, please drop a note on my talk page.
- Please expand the lead to conform with guidelines at WP:LEAD. The article should have an appropriate number of paragraphs as is shown on WP:LEAD, and should adequately summarize the article.
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between a number and the unit of measurement. For example, instead of 18mm, use 18 mm, which when you are editing the page, should look like: 18 mm.
- Per WP:MOS#Headings, headings generally do not start with the word "The". For example, ==The Biography== would be changed to ==Biography==.
- Please alphabetize the categories and interlanguage links.
- This article needs footnotes, preferably in the cite.php format recommended by WP:WIAFA. Simply, enclose inline citations, with WP:CITE or WP:CITE/ES information, with <ref>THE FOOTNOTE</ref>. At the bottom of the article, in a section named “References” or “Footnotes”, add
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.- To assist you with this, add
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- You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions (and the javascript checklist; see the last paragraph in the lead) for further ideas.
- Thanks, Andy t 21:36, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Scouting
- Does anyone want add him to the Scouting_memorials page? --evrik 15:53, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
Contradiction?
The last section seems to contradict itself. If "he was ordered by General Władysław Anders to return to Poland and gather intelligence to be sent to the West. He went back and proceeded to organize his intelligence network..." and "Pilecki was accused of having spied for the Western Allies and General Anders", than how come "Pilecki's conviction was based on false charges..."? Either I don't understand something, or one of those three fragments is incorrect. With respect, Ko Soi IX 04:17, 2 November 2007 (UTC) Thank you, Piotrus. One small question though, why did you change "probably forged" to simply "forged"? With respect, Ko Soi IX 05:03, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Dates?
This article says that as early as 1940, [he] informed the Western Allies of Nazi Germany's Auschwitz atrocities. The term atrocities merits substantiation, here, as systematic extermination in Auschwitz and elsewhere started only in 1942. —Preceding unsigned comment added by LeMiklos (talk • contribs) 12:35, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
- The date is fine but this is a reference to harsh (sometimes fatal) slave labour of civilians and POWs rather than the later gas exterminations of the Final Solution. Agree a citation would help here. -Chumchum7 (talk) 13:52, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
External links
Is The Murder of Cavalry Captain Witold Pilecki an appropriate EL for this article? TIA Tom (talk) 03:53, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
Intersting tidbit
This is a bit of trivia but according to Foot's "Six Faces of Courage", when Pilecki escaped from Auschwitz and made his way to Bohnia, the first AK commander he met was Tomasz Serafiński, the very person who's name he took as his secret identity, and under which he was imprisoned in the camp. Like I said, bit of trivia, but it might be worthwhile to include.radek (talk) 22:40, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
If anyone wants to add to the legacy section, similar to other articles (Charles XII of Sweden Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden) the Swedish power metal band Sabaton wrote a song about this man entitled 'Inmate 4859'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.178.197.190 (talk) 04:14, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
Very last Sentence
Congratulations on producing an excellent article. May I humbly submit two small modification suggestions:
1) The last sentence which currently reads - "He is thought to have been buried in an unmarked grave near Warsaw's Powązki Cemetery's garbage dump." This always leaves me a bit cold, it just doesn't quite feel right (or read well) to end an article of this quality about a man such as Pilecki this way. I feel the end of the article would hit the right note with something along the lines of - "his burial place is thought to be somewhere within Powązki Cemetery, a symbolic gravestone was erected in Pilecki's memory at Ostrowa Mazowiecka Cemetery after the fall of Communism in Poland."
Then at least the final words of the article wouldn't be "garbage dump".
2) Might be better still to move the sentence addressing Pilecki's burial place so it follows the final sentence on his execution that reads - "Ten days later, on May 25, 1948, Pilecki was executed at the Warsaw Mokotów Prison on ulica Rakowiecka street,[2] by Staff Sergeant Piotr Śmietański.[18] Śmietański was nicknamed by the prisoners the "Butcher of the Mokotow Prison". If this was done then the article will end by addressing Pilecki's rehabilitation in post-communist Poland, which would give the article a better flow and a more upbeat, redemptive ending.
Tattooing
The article states that Pilecki's inmate number was tattooed on his forearm, however this is unlikely because tattooing was not introduced at Auschwitz until the autumn of 1941 (Pilecki was incarcerated almost one year earlier in September 1940) when the SS began to tattoo (for identification purposes) the thousands of Soviet prisoners of war (POWs) who arrived at the camp after the German invasion of USSR. It wasn't until the spring of 1943 that almost all previously registered and newly arrived prisoners, including female prisoners throughout the entire Auschwitz complex started to be tatooed. So it unlikely that Pilecki was tatooed with his prison number shortly after his arrival at Auschwitz or before he escaped in April 1943. Aslo Pilecki does not mention being tatooed with his number in any of the three personal Auschwitz reports made after his escape, although he does mention being assigned a number.
I think this present statement " Pilecki was tattooed on his forearm with the number 4859" should be revised to read " Pilecki was assigned inmate number 4859"
Page 390 of the cited source for the statement " Pilecki was tattooed on his forearm with the number 4859" does NOT state that Pilecki's number was tatooed on his forearm at all it reads 'Two days later, he was recieved (as Serafinski) in Auschwitz, and became prisoner number 4,859.'
The fact that Pilecki wasn't sent back to Auschwitz when he was captured during the Warsaw uprising suggests to me that he wasn't tattooed with his prison number. Either that or he kept his forearm covered up, which is unlikely as he would probably have been strip searched at same point after his capture.
See:
The Mammoth Book of True War Stories (Mammoth Books) [Paperback]
Jon E. Lewis.
http://www.amazon.com/Mammoth-Book-True-Stories-Books/dp/0786706295#reader_0786706295
See ref: http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007056 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sjam2004 (talk • contribs) 16:40, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
Witold Pilecki is not listed in "Righteous among the Nations
Witold Pilecki is not listed in "Righteous among the Nations". See: http://www1.yadvashem.org/yv/en/righteous/statistics.asp The Righteous Among the Nations Department Righteous Among the Nations Honored by Yad Vashem By 1 January 2012
........... Pilat, Pawel & Helena 2001 Pilat, Piotr & wife, children Leon, Wincenty, Jan & his wife Matylda 1965/1990 Pilch, Kasper, ch. Czeslawa & Stanislaw 2007 Pilecka, Michalina 1992 Pindelak, Roman & Paulina 1979 Pindor, Stanislaw & mother 1990 .................
Sjam2004 (talk) 09:17, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
- I confirm that Sjam2004 is correct. Please, see also: "Honored by Yad Vashem by 1 January 2012. POLAND" in http://www1.yadvashem.org/yv/en/righteous/pdf/virtial_wall/poland.pdf page 84 of 132 (1.16 MB). Poeticbent talk 10:10, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
Assessment comment
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Witold Pilecki/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
needs inline citations --plange 20:19, 24 September 2006 (UTC) |
Last edited at 20:19, 24 September 2006 (UTC). Substituted at 10:48, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
Rank Promotion
For his daring work and at the risk of his own life, Witold has prepared reports of what happened in the death camps. He got interned at Auschwitz, prepared reports and escaped to friendly lines and has addressed the world community of the atrocities that took place in the camp. The poles executed him instead of promoting him from Captain to a Full General. That was a remarkable feat of soldiering by anyone's measure. As a Non-Jew Witold should be placed in the Yad Vashem's "Avenue of The Righteous". Captain Witold Pilecki was the most courageous cavalry officer in the Polish Cavalry and once again, for his work, he should have been advanced to General. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amaddrums (talk • contribs) 23:49, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
Rehabilitation vs. conviction
It is interesting, that charges against him are presented as true in the article, yet nothing points to questionability of his rehabilitation in that case (If charges are true, why rehabilitation? This is a problem with many post-Soviet rehabilitations, actually.). Alternatively, charges should be described as false (as they were in previous versions), but that would contradict most descriptions on what happened, most likely. 185.150.154.77 (talk) 13:35, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
Lack of citations
To justify placing the additional citation needed tag on the head of the article, here are some paragraphs/ strings of text that need citations: His forces held a fortified area called the "Great Bastion of Warsaw", one of the most outlying of partisan redoubts. Pilecki and his men inflicted significant casualties and caused considerable logistical difficulties for German supply lines by routinely seizing control of a strategically placed building overlooking the city's main west-east thoroughfare, Jerusalem Avenue. The bastion held for two weeks in the face of almost constant attacks by German infantry and armor.
...
After the defeat of Nazi Germany in May 1945, Pilecki was sent to Great Britain as a staff officer of the Polish Armed Forces in the West
...
By mid-1946 Pilecki's network had successfully made contact with Poland's anti-Soviet partisans and established an underground courier system to spirit information from Warsaw to the headquarters of the Polish II Corps in Italy. However, its greatest achievement was the recruitment of Captain Wawel Alchimowicz, an official of Poland's Ministry of Public Security (MBP), the communist secret police.
Alchimowicz provided the underground with highly-sensitive material on the MBP's covert operations, internal organization and senior personnel as well as evidence that the results of the people's referendum of June 1946 had been forged by the MBP to favor the communists and their allies.
This information was compiled into the so-called "Blade Report" and was dispatched to the II Corps in December 1946 by Pilecki. During this time Pilecki's group was itself infiltrated by Leszek Kuchciński, a former TAP member and double agent for Poland's Stalinist government.
...
Pilecki told his wife in their final conversation: "I cannot live. They killed me. Because Oświęcim [Auschwitz] compared with them was just a trifle." His final words before his execution were: "Long live free Poland". The Polish government in exile decided that the post-war political situation offered no hope of Poland's liberation, and they ordered the remaining members of the Polish resistance (who became known as the cursed soldiers) to return to their normal civilian lives or escape to the West. -Indy beetle (talk) 21:49, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
- Did you review the sources that appear next after these paragraphs and did you find the material missing? Each para does not require a cite - if all the information in a group of paragraphs is tagged at the end of that group, that is perfectly acceptable. This is a Featured Article that went through the FA process - are you aware of what that means?50.111.25.206 (talk) 03:08, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
- Agree with the comments concerning the citation style, the look fine to me. However, I would point out that the last time this article was assessed for Featured status was April 2009. Lots has changed since then and it may need to be reassessed. --dashiellx (talk) 11:02, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, I looked in the sources immediately after the disputed material: it wasn't in them. Consequently, I have removed the unsourced material, virtually all of which had been added since the FA process. DrKay (talk) 14:08, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
FAR needed
I don't think the article currently is of FA status. It has careless and inconsistent ref formatting, with both shortened footnotes and long ones intertwined. It relies rather heavily on a single web page, which I can't access, owing to its lack of proper sertificate for privacy. Is it a HQRS? And is our copy sufficiently paraphrased? We need better sourcing than what we've got here: IMDb and Publicystyka Antysocjalistycznego Mazowsza are not HQRS. We also have a See also farm and an EL farm. It is also not particularly well written with repetitive lines like […]he was not breaking any laws. He pleaded guilty to the other charges. He was sentenced to death on 15 May with three of his comrades, and he was executed and noun + -ing, -ing, -ing He was also a vigorous advocate of rural development, founding an agricultural cooperative, heading the local fire brigade and also serving as chairman of a local milk-processing plant built in the district. Eisfbnore (会話) 09:51, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
- Based on what I see in the IA, the broken link can be updated to [1], through I cannot confirm the authorship attributed in our link to Lidia Świerczek (incidentally, I found this OA article which: [2]. Anyway, the source is reliable but this article needs a copyedit for prose and MoS issues. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 14:41, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
- Hi, i agree, the stroty is amazing, the English syntax and style less so. I'll fix a bunch of these paras and sentences. Probably just weak translations, and the usual wiki "chop quote structure'. Billyshiverstick (talk) 02:29, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
Fixing the lead
Amazing guy, amazing story. The lead is all chopped up. I'll fix it to normal standards. Don't worry. Please don't revert, but revise if you feel inspired. Tx Billyshiverstick (talk) 02:27, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
Fleming quote
Buidhe, you are once again completely ignoring WP:BRD and trying to force your way on yet another article via brute edit warring. Your edit has been challenged you, you should make an attempt to discuss it.
And I agree with GCB. That quote doesn't really add to the article, it's kind of just dropped there for no apparent reason (less apparent reasons? Perhaps), it doesn't really relate to anything else in the article, it's sole purpose appears to be to just include something "negative" about the subject. It's clearly UNDUE. Volunteer Marek 07:16, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
And the way it's phrased - yes, it is a quote, but a cherry picked one out of context - insinuates to the casual reader that the fact that Pilecki was "imprisoned in Auschwitz" was a "myth". So not just UNDUE but... misleading. Volunteer Marek 07:17, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- I don't see how anyone is going to be mislead by that since the article states clearly what Pilecki actually did. The Auschwitz Volunteer book is a mass-market not scholarly source which doesn't meet article sourcing requirements, similar to most of the content in the article. Fleming, who is a respected historian, says that "volunteer" is not the right word and that you have to distinguish facts from myths when it comes to Pilecki. Not sure why you are trying to remove that. PS I also added content about "Wallenberg myth" according to reliable sources to Raoul Wallenberg article a while back. I think both Pilecki and Wallenberg should be appreciated for what they did not what they didn't do. Having the word "volunteer" in the lead without proper context *is* misleading. (t · c) buidhe 07:29, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- Buidhe, I agree, the text you added is misleading, cherry picked and WP:UNDUE. - GizzyCatBella🍁 07:49, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- The quote however doesn't really make much sense and it comes from a book review. The book itself meets the requirement of having been published by a reputable institution, by a award winning author, and has won prestigious awards. Volunteer Marek 08:34, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- Simply looking at the edit by Buidhe, it does look to me problematic.
- What is the difference between "volunteered" and "agreed to infiltrate"?
- What exactly Michael Fleming implies? This is not clear. That Pilecki simply acted by the order? If so, that would be fine (that was a war), but the wording is misleading ("coercion, pressure, manipulation, and bullying". Order by whom, exactly and when? That must be said. My very best wishes (talk) 22:27, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- But in any event I agree that info by Michael Fleming can/should be included to this page. The only question is how exactly (and why) his story is different from the commonly accepted story that is currently described on this page. The edit by Buidhe does not say or explain it at all. My very best wishes (talk) 04:09, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
Historian Michael Fleming is a better source than www.doomedsoldiers.com. Fleming and others say this was exactly volunteering, he was forced to "volunteer".Laizx (talk) 09:34, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
- Is “doomed soldiers” being used in this article? Volunteer Marek 03:32, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- As I've commented on RSN, Assessment from professional historians is better than a mass market book. Saying he "volunteered" is not the view of academic sources. Doomedsoldiers, and material taken from it, is not acceptable.--Bob not snob (talk) 13:20, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
- Is “doomed soldiers” being used in this article?” Volunteer Marek 03:32, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, sure. But what exactly this professional historian tells on that subject? Who gave the order? Who decided that he goes? He or someone else? Did the subject dispute the order and someone "bullied" him, as this historian tells? Bullied? How? By threatening whom? I know nothing about this subject and would like to learn. My very best wishes (talk) 03:13, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- It is clear who gave the order, he had one superior officer and he was in a feud with him. Fleming is a superb source.--Bob not snob (talk) 07:13, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- It's a book review and the quotations that are pulled out of it are confusing without the context. This has already been brought up.
- Also, I'm not sure if you're aware of the existing 500/30 restriction in this topic area]. Volunteer Marek 09:00, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- It is clear who gave the order, he had one superior officer and he was in a feud with him. Fleming is a superb source.--Bob not snob (talk) 07:13, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- Fleming is an RS, but I would avoid book reviews in this TA unless on books' articles. That said, as stated at RSN I would also avoid this book, as would most other editors who commented there. In either case this argument is unnecessary, since we already have scholarly sources stating what was claimed (p. 287 onwards here). François Robere (talk) 11:48, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
- Just to clarify, I see no problem in quoting or discussing reviews on Talk. François Robere (talk) 14:12, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
Publicystyka Antysocjalistycznego Mazowsza
The website of Publicystyka Antysocjalistycznego Mazowsza is not a reliable source.--Bob not snob (talk) 07:15, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
After discussion, WP:APLRS
After this discussion, the page was updated in accordance with WP:APLRS.--Bob not snob (talk) 10:44, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- You just gutted the article. That is NOT what APLRS or the discussion at RSN recommended. I also notice that you are an account created in November 2019, shortly after the conclusion of the relevant ArbCom case, and that you began editing this topic area immediately after passing the 500 edit restriction imposed by ArbCom. WP:DUCK. Volunteer Marek 18:06, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- Most of the sources you deleted were fine. Volunteer Marek 18:06, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- @Bob not snob: Can you list the sources you see as problematic (other than Fairweather and Fleming's review, for which there's no consensus ATM)? François Robere (talk) 20:16, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- And here you are FR, on yet another article that you've never edited before, showing up immediately after me. Volunteer Marek 01:20, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- The source in question was discussed at RSN, so it's natural to look up the page that prompted the discussion. If there's an issue with editor behaviour, please use ANI or AE. This is not what article Talk pages are for. --K.e.coffman (talk) 04:37, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- And here you are FR, on yet another article that you've never edited before, showing up immediately after me. Volunteer Marek 01:20, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- Volunteer Marek, you've removed an academic source (Fleming 2019) and replaced it with a newspaper article for the volunteering issue. I was about to add Fleming 2014, who also addresses this. SarahSV (talk) 00:49, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- Can you provide the exact diff you're referring to? If you're talking about the article by Timothy Snyder then yeah, I think that's a better source than an off hand comment in a book review. Volunteer Marek 01:19, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- It wasn't an offhand comment. Fleming is a specialist on how information about Auschwitz came to be known. He discusses Pilecki in his book about that issue (Auschwitz, the Allies and Censorship of the Holocaust, Cambridge University Press, 2014) in the text and in a lengthy footnote. Pilecki was "pressured", as Fleming put it. Pilecki himself said he was "not all that thrilled", according to Fleming's translation. SarahSV (talk) 01:24, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- Well, I'll look in Fleming's book but so far all that has been provided was his book review. At the same time we have several major works dedicated to Pilecki that expressly state he volunteered. In addition to Snyder and Fairweather, we also have a Patricelli who also wrote a book on him. Volunteer Marek 01:28, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- And as Cuber points out the word "volunteer" is not just due whether he "volunteered" for the mission or was ordered to go but also due to the fact that he "voluntarily" let himself be arrested, which Fleming also acknowledges. Volunteer Marek 01:30, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- M. R. D. Foot also, iirc, states he volunteered. Volunteer Marek 01:34, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- (ec) Snyder is a newspaper article; the Fairweather book is also journalism. The article should be based on scholarly sources wherever possible. He let himself be arrested, which was part of the mission; no need to add an extra word in there. According to Fleming, Major Jan Włodarkiewicz "volunteered" him for the mission. SarahSV (talk) 01:39, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- Fleming (2014, p. 406, note 49) writes: "In Poland and Polonia (that is, amongst the Polish diaspora), there is a hagiographic discourse about Witold Pilecki, claiming both that Pilecki came up with the idea for getting into Auschwitz and that he volunteered for the mission. In actual fact, the circumstances of Pilecki ending up in Auschwitz are somewhat more complicated." SarahSV (talk) 02:01, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- And Patricelli, Foot, Snyder, Szumilo, Davies, and many other historians disagree. Nota bene we are not writing here that he came up with the idea. Fleming's contention that he did not "volunteer" is the one that is outside of mainstream here. Volunteer Marek 02:07, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- A scholarly source is not an historian writing in a newspaper, especially when it's outside his area. Fleming is a specialist in precisely this area: who knew what about Auschwitz. Which scholarly sources say he volunteered? Please cite them here. SarahSV (talk) 02:17, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- Two of them are in the article - Szumilo and Patricelli. We can certainly include Fleming's view and the details in the article itself, but there's no reason why his view should be the one to dominate the lead. Volunteer Marek 02:54, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- (also I wouldn't say that this is outside of Snyder's area). Volunteer Marek 03:02, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- A scholarly source is not an historian writing in a newspaper, especially when it's outside his area. Fleming is a specialist in precisely this area: who knew what about Auschwitz. Which scholarly sources say he volunteered? Please cite them here. SarahSV (talk) 02:17, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- And Patricelli, Foot, Snyder, Szumilo, Davies, and many other historians disagree. Nota bene we are not writing here that he came up with the idea. Fleming's contention that he did not "volunteer" is the one that is outside of mainstream here. Volunteer Marek 02:07, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- It wasn't an offhand comment. Fleming is a specialist on how information about Auschwitz came to be known. He discusses Pilecki in his book about that issue (Auschwitz, the Allies and Censorship of the Holocaust, Cambridge University Press, 2014) in the text and in a lengthy footnote. Pilecki was "pressured", as Fleming put it. Pilecki himself said he was "not all that thrilled", according to Fleming's translation. SarahSV (talk) 01:24, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- Can you provide the exact diff you're referring to? If you're talking about the article by Timothy Snyder then yeah, I think that's a better source than an off hand comment in a book review. Volunteer Marek 01:19, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
Re: Patricelli, Marco (2010). Il volontario. Laterza. pp. 53–268. ISBN 978-8842091882. Can you give a page number, please, and briefly summarize what he says? SarahSV (talk) 03:39, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- Well, the title of the book is “Il Voluntario” which I think is quite clear as to the authors’s views. Pilecki is described as voluntarily getting sent to Auschwitz in the Introduction, on pages 10 and 17 and then again on page 88. On page 90 it states that Pilecki volunteered to organize a resistance organization in Auschwitz. Volunteer Marek 04:20, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- Thank you. From another source in the article, Cuber-Strutyńska, Ewa (2017). "Witold Pilecki. Confronting the legend of the "volunteer to Auschwitz"". Holocaust Studies and Materials. 4: 281–301:
- "It appears that Pilecki was not, as it has become customary to think, the initiator of penetrating the camp. Therefore it is more accurate to consider the mission of 'Witold' to be rather an instance of obedience to his superiors' orders than voluntary sacrifice" (p. 287).
- "Regardless of the discrepancies concerning the place and circumstances of his arrest, all versions have one common element, and on the basis of this element historians (and not only them) decided that Pilecki let Germans capture him with the purpose of reaching Auschwitz. As a result of later interpretations and simplifications, it has been commonly assumed that Pilecki was a 'volunteer to Auschwitz'. "It is difficult to determine the author of this expression. In 1976, it appeared in the title of the French edition of Garliński’s book (Volontaire pour Auschwitz: La Résistance organizée à l’intérieur du camp). In Poland, the definition was popularised by Wincenty Gawron, who entitled his memoirs from the camp (in a large measure devoted also to Pilecki) Volunteer to Auschwitz. It was soon borrowed by Pilecki’s biographers. The neat and meaningful expression has thus become established due to the publications of Adam Cyra (Volunteer to Auschwitz, 2000) and Marco Patricelli (Il Volontario, Rome 2010) and The Auschwitz Volunteer: Beyond Bravery (2012).47 It resulted from the tendency to present people and events in a simplified way, from insufficient source criticism or its complete absence and from failure to notice contradictions in factual documents. As a consequence, in the case of the 'volunteer to Auschwitz', the commonly used expression only partially corresponds with the facts" (pp. 293–294).
- SarahSV (talk) 07:04, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- Thank you. From another source in the article, Cuber-Strutyńska, Ewa (2017). "Witold Pilecki. Confronting the legend of the "volunteer to Auschwitz"". Holocaust Studies and Materials. 4: 281–301:
WP:APLRS v2
I undid many of Volunteer Marek's changes as they removed academic sources, removed page numbers, and added sources that are impossible to verify (no page numbers) as well as failing WP:APLRS. In particular:
- Snyder in the New York Times: a book review of a non-academic book. Is not a scholarly source.
- Il volontario: A non-English title, APLRS says English titles should be preferred and they are available here. Further, this is a mass market non-scholarly book.
- Rising '44: "The Battle for Warsaw": Again a mass market book, non-scholarly. Also lacking page numbers.
- Tchorek in The Times: Not a scholarly source.
- Escaping Hell: The Story of a Polish Underground Officer in Auschwitz and Buchenwald: Non-scholarly, memoirs of a Polish officer.
- Garliński 1975: Old source, lacking page number so impossible to verify.
- "The Auschwitz Volunteer: Beyond Bravery: Published by Aquila Polonica, not a scholarly source.
Volunteer Marek, please gain clear consensus on compliance before putting more material that is not APLRS.--Bob not snob (talk) 07:32, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
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